← Serialously with Annie Elise
Serialously with Annie Elise
384: Dirty Duggars Get Dirtier, Letecia Stauch’s Conviction OVERTURNED & Hawaii Attempted Murder Trial
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A
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B
Hey, true crime besties. Welcome back to an all new episode of Serial as. Foreign. Hello, hello, hello. And welcome back to an all new episode of Serial Lessly with me, your host, Annie Elise. It is Thursday, which first and foremost means I hope you're having a good week and you're getting ready for the weekend. But it also means that it is headline highlights day where we are going to go through everything that's going on this week in True crime. We, we have some brand new cases, some updates in cases, some cases that are really me the fuck off, if I'm going to be honest with you. And actually that's what I'm going to start with as we go in. That's going to be case number one. But we have a lot to discuss today and I don't like to discuss it alone. So in again, surprise. In a surprise to no one ever, please welcome back to the show, Amy Colette.
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C
Good morning.
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B
That was like full house. Good morning, San Francisco. What was it?
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C
Wake up, San Francisco. I think about it every single time we do the show.
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B
Do you?
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C
What was your intro? Wake up.
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B
Do, do I wish you had to
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C
tell me because then remember in the very first episode, they're competitive and they like crash cheersing.
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B
Wake up. Did it.
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C
Do I. I'm so obsessed with that.
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B
Now I know why do I have two waters? Actually, I'll tell you why I have two water bottles. Because asmr. Here we go. Spring Merch just launched to the public this week. AnnieElise.com, you can get all of your stuff. Although I wanna warn you, a lot of it is already selling out pretty quickly. But this is our new be nice, don't kill people tumbler. It comes with a straw. I just don't have it here right now. And then also there's apparel, shirts, sweatshirts, accessories, the works. But then also our three time sellout safety kit, which I'm just gonna show you here. You can hear it. Um, it's a black pouch that says stay safe. And inside you have all sorts of safety tools to help keep you safe. You have flashlights, you have glass breakers, you have alarms, you have extra locks. And don't worry, it's going to be packaged way cleaner. You have seatbelt cutters, everything has you know a little saying on it as well. We had these last year. We sold out three different times. And so because of your demand, we have brought them back. But these are also obviously going very quickly. So Annie elise.com you can get it now. But the merch shop is closing on Monday, so get your orders in fast. And because some of it, like I said, is already beginning to get very low in quantities, I'm out of breath. Okay. So we have a lot to go over today. We do a lot to discuss. And I know there's a couple cases you want to talk about, one that I have some thoughts on too, regarding. Yes, shall not be named.
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C
I have a lot to say actually, and I'm curious to know if it's a hot take or not.
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B
Amy has arrived. Okay. Okay. Well, let's start with what is not a hot take because I know all of you who are listening are going to agree with me when you hear the details of this. And it is the newest update in the hideous gutter troll monster Letitia Stauch. Because if you remember, she was convicted for murdering her stepson Gannon, and that conviction has now been overturned. Now, when I first saw this news break last week, I literally thought it was April Fools. I think I found out on the 2nd and I was like, is this an April Fool's joke? This actually cannot be real. The evidence was overwhelming. The remember, if you remember the interviews, the body cam footage when she chucked that monster can in the back of the cop car, this woman, am I getting chills right now talking about, I don't know why she makes me so irate and I hate this woman. So let me break down what's going on because this is definitely an update that I did not expect to be sharing, especially in a case like this. But here we go. So as you may or may not be familiar with, this case is one that we have covered before. So I'm not going to do a full super deep dive into the background. But for those of you who are unfamiliar and have no idea why I'm getting as angry as I am, I am going to quickly recap what happened. So this all started back in January of 2020 and that is when 11 year old Gannon Stout was reported missing out of Colorado Springs. What followed was weeks of searching, stories constantly changing and a lot of suspicion surrounding his stepmom, Leticia. Investigators later said that Gannon had been killed inside their family home and then his body ultimately had been found later in Florida after being transported. I think it was over 1500 miles across state lines, Leticia was arrested. She was char charged. And in 2023, she was convicted of first degree murder. And she was sentenced to life in prison without parole, plus an additional 13 years. And that is like skimming the very top line surface of what is truly involved in this case, because it wasn't. I mean, obviously no murder is just cut and dry. But like, it wasn't just that. There was ongoing torment, emotional abuse. There were videos and audio recordings of Gannon where he thought he was being bad and in trouble for things that he was doing, where he had a burn one time and she was like yelling at him about it. All he wanted to do was play his video game at times. And in the bedroom, the crime scene photos were horrific. You could see like what happened and it just goes so much deeper. And don't worry, I am going to be doing this, I think maybe as a possible reopened, I'm not sure. On my second True Crime podcast, tend to life. Just so that ahead of this now new trial that's going to be coming up, you can get fully up to speed. But it is a very complex case and there is so much that goes into it. And once you learn about all that, if you don't already know, you'll 1000% understand why I'm so angry. But the point being, so she was found guilty. And a major part of that trial was her insanity defense. She claimed that she had disassociative identity disorder, that she wasn't the same person, she had multiple personalities, all these things. However, the jury didn't believe it. So they deliberated for about eight hours and then they came back with the guilty verdict. And so at that point, it really felt like, okay, great, case closed, justice served. Gannon's getting justice, his dad is getting justice. This troll, disgusting gutter human being is going, you know, going to be locked up forever or at least for a long period of time. Except as of late last week, it's not case closed because as I said, now the conviction has been overturned. A Colorado court of appeals has ruled that Letecia is entitled to a new trial. And the reason for this, it comes down to something very specific that had happened with the jury, which I have to say really frustrates me too, because not that it's a technicality, but it's something that. It didn't have anything to do with her defense or evidence or anything like that. It was something regarding the jury. According to reports, one of the jurors who sat in on the case had a family connection to the prosecutor's office. Specifically, the juror's son in law worked for the same district attorney's office that was prosecuting Leticia. And under Colorado law, that that kind of relationship can create what's called implied bias, which I think that that goes for a variety of states law, not just Colorado. But it basically means that the court treats that juror as biased by default, regardless of whether they personally say that they can be fair. So during the trial, the defense actually flagged this, and they asked for that juror to be removed, but the judge denied the request. So the juror stayed on the panel, participated in deliberations, and helped decide the verdict. So now that decision, the judge saying that the juror can stay, that's what's now coming back years later, because the appeals court looked at that and said, no, absolutely not. That was a legal error. You certainly cannot do that. So they ruled that allowing the juror to stay violated Letitia's constitutional right to a fair and impartial jury. And when it comes to something like juror bias, it's not something that you can obviously just overlook or say that it didn't matter if a juror who should have been disqualified was allowed to sit on the case. The entire verdict can be thrown out automatically. And in this case, it did get thrown out. Now, obviously, this doesn't mean that Letitia is innocent. It doesn't mean that she's being released. It doesn't mean that the case falls apart. And truth be told, I think that there was plenty of evidence. We had covered this trial in real time when it was going on a few years ago, too. There. There's no doubt in my mind that she will be found guilty again, certainly not. But it does mean that the state saw the trial as flawed and it made this verdict no longer valid. Prosecutors have already responded to this as well, saying that they are very disappointed with the ruling, but that they still fully intend to pursue justice for Gannon. And they do have some options here. As of right now, the prosecutor is planning to take this to the Colorado Supreme Court and ask for the decision to be reviewed. And if that higher court disagrees with the appeals court, then the conviction could potentially be reinstated. But if they don't take it up or if they agree with the ruling, then this case does move forward to a full retrial, which imagine what that means. Like, that means going through all of the details again, all the horrific evidence, the crime scene photos, the audio recordings, the testimony, the insanity defense, and Letitia's batshit fucking crazy antics, the forensic details, everything. And putting Gannon's father and family through all of this again. Gannon's family has also already spoken out, essentially saying that they are preparing themselves to have to relive this process if it comes to that. Which, I mean, just imagine for a moment finally getting a conviction, thinking that it's over, thinking that the monster who hurt your family is behind bars, but then being pulled right back into it just a couple of years later. So, as of right now, Leticia remains in custody. Her conviction has been overturned for now. And this case is kind of in that weird in between stage where prosecutors have to decide what their next move is going to be. But either way, the case certainly is not over. I mean, not even close. I am definitely going to be following this very closely, and I will update you as soon as we know what happens next. But this bitch, I can't believe she's back on my radar.
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C
It's so frustrating when people get off on, like, a technical. Not that she's getting off, but that she's even granted a new trial.
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B
And the waste of resources, time, money, emotional distress. Yeah. Exposing the family to that all over again. It's. And I know that she is just so happy.
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C
She is beating. That's what's the most frustrating.
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B
I know. You know what? This is kind of one of those moments. Not that I advocate for vigilante justice,
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C
but, like, you don't.
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B
No, I don't. But sometimes I do believe that, like, jailhouse justice does need to take its course.
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C
I mean, there's a reason people believe in karma. True.
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I just, I. I hate this one. And she looks like a wet rat every time you see her. No, honestly. Have you seen a picture of her?
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C
Yes.
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B
She looks like a wet, greasy rat. And I hate her. I need to take a drink of water. Okay, take it away, o'. Brien.
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C
Well. And you know this one really well.
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B
Yeah, I'm about to get pissed off. Times two.
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C
Here we go. Yeah.
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B
Okay.
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C
So this next case is currently on trial. We've been following it closely. Annie covered it multiple times on Hulu Doc with Nancy Grace. I think you've talked about it on the pod. And things have shifted in a major way now in the courtroom because Gerhardt Koenig has taken the stand in his own defense. Now, if you're not familiar with the case, we talked about it a little bit a couple weeks ago. Also, Gerhardt Koenig is an anesthesiologist on trial for allegedly attempting to murder his wife in three different ways during a hike in Hawaii. Now, here's the thing. Defendants don't always have to testify. In fact, a lot of them don't, because the second you do, you're opening yourself up to cross examination. The prosecutors can go straight for your story, your timeline, and, and your credibility. So it's not always the best idea. But this case in particular has always been about two completely different versions of what happened on that hike. Prosecutors say it was a deliberate, violent attack. Gerhardt allegedly pushed her toward a cliff, beat her over the head with a rock, and even allegedly tried to use syringes on her. But when he took the stand, he completely tried to flip that narrative. He told the jury that this was not planned, that it was not an attempted murder, instead claims that this was self defense, that his wife shoved him near the edge of the cliff and what followed was a physical struggle when he reacted. And really, the entire goal of his testimony was to introduce reasonable doubt, reframe the intent, and take what the prosecution is calling calculated, and turn it into something chaotic, reactive, and unplanned. But remember, the jury isn't just hearing from him. They also heard from his son. And that's where, honestly, the entire tone of the courtroom shifted last week because his son, Emil Koenig, took the stand and described a FaceTime call that happened shortly after the incident. And according to his testimony, his father didn't say anything about self defense in that moment. Instead, he said something very different because his son told the court that his dad admitted that he, quote, tried to kill his wife. And not only that, but he described seeing what appeared to be blood, hearing his father not talk about coming back, and even making statements about what sounded like final decisions, like telling him to, quote, take care of his siblings. So just think about that for a second, because now the jury is sitting there with two versions of events being told within about 48 hours of each other. One version, the accused person on the stand under oath saying this was self defense. And another version, according to his own son, in the immediate aftermath saying, I tried to kill her. And that's when you have to stop and ask, what is the real version here? Because these are obviously two very conflicting stories. And this is where I feel like we have a lot to unpack here.
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B
I know, I don't know. At the time of this recording, there has not been a verdict reached, so maybe there will be. At the time of this release. I think it was pretty ballsy of him to take the stand because usually we don't see the defendant take the stand, because, as you pointed out, it's an opportunity for the prosecution to just, like, pummel them and, like, completely des. Like, just, you know, pick apart their story, their whole story. That being said, he didn't really, in my opinion, have a strong defense. So I think it was kind of a Hail Mary. Like, what have I got to lose at this point? The cards are already stacked against me. When you look at the evidence and when you hear the 911 call, when you see the photos of Ariel, like, all of these things, so that I think he's like, I'm gonna try to elicit some sympathy wherever I can and just do my best to spin the narrative that I'm trying to spin.
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C
Sure.
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B
But I would be shocked if people believed it, because even if it's true, which he says, she was having an emotional affair. They had been in couples counseling. She had said that she believed that it was working. That's why she agreed to go on this hike with him, which, by the way, was her birthday. And then he said, let's take a selfie near this cliff. She's like, no, I don't feel comfortable. And then that's when he, like, tried to shove her to get her closer to the cliff. That's when he then took the rock and allegedly started bashing her head in and then reached for the syringes. So even if you're on the jury and you're hearing this guy who seems like he's telling the truth, and he's like, you know, we got in a spat. She was having an emotional affair. She admitted to it. Then it escalated. It was a spousal argument that, like, erupted into chaos or whatever. What I would be asking as a juror is, okay, maybe that's believable, but why do you bring syringes with you on a hike?
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C
Like, why do you have syringes readily available? And Which I will say they have
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B
not recovered those to my knowledge. I think that there's been some weirdness where they were seen, but I don't think they know the contents of them or something like that. But they did find the fanny pack that he had on the hike at his house later, and it had propofol in it. Syringes. And he is an anesthesiologist. He obviously has access to a lot of medications, so. But, yeah, you wouldn't.
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C
You're not carrying that around.
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B
No. You're not bringing a syringe of propofol with you on a Maui hike.
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C
And when you're on if it's your birthday and you're going for a hike with your husband who already knows of this affair and already you're trying to work through it, what could have been so heated that came out that you're deciding to talk about at the top of this cliff during. I mean, it's not like new information was revealed at this point. I mean, what would have caused some sort of argument to be than self defense?
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B
Well, I think the way he's trying to spin it and he's outright saying some of this, but I think a lot of it is also illustrated in the undertones of what he's saying is that she didn't want to be with him anymore. She's trying to push him off the cliff, which.
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C
It's like, just get a divorce.
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B
Just get a divorce. Yeah, both. You just get a divorce. No. But then, like, when you see the damage that was inflicted on her with this rock and how bloody she was and how scary it was when the hikers found her and all of that. And then, yeah, this admission, which his defense used the line. So the admission to his son on the FaceTime call, where he basically was crying and it was kind of like, I think he realized that was when he was on foot and there was a full manhunt looking for him for hours, and he felt the walls closing in. His defense is now saying, no, no, no, no. And their quote is, that was not a confession. That was a mental health crisis. Sure. Which is, like, fair. I get you're trying to spin it, but, like, let's call it what it is.
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C
Well, and then there was the second call where he calls his son. So now he's called his son twice. And in the second call, his main concern was who did you tell that I that about our first call? So obviously he's concerned with guilt because
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B
at that point he's like, I'm gonna start walking this back.
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C
Yes, exactly. And let me. I've had some time to think of my story. And so calling the son back, asking who he told, then all of a sudden the narrative changes. Not only that, but you've got two hikers who. Who are seeing this woman who was just hit over the head with, you know, rocks. I feel like you've got enough people here who saw the story in real time that anything you're trying to put together as self defense is very unbelievable.
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B
I agree. I think it's probably like when it first happened and when she started screaming and he fled on foot, he was probably in fight orf flight. More so flight, like, it's time for me to get the hell out of here, Call my son, line things up. And then the fight part kicked back in like, oh, yeah, I am going to walk it back and I'm going to fight this, and I'm going to say this and this and this.
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C
And what a coward you do. You attack your wife and then you're. You, like, threaten to jump off the cliff because you can't handle your consequence.
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B
Yeah, what a loser I was going to say, too. I've seen it on social media here and there, as some people have been following it, and I haven't really seen anything overwhelming one way or another. I mean, what I have seen mostly is people think he's guilty, but I haven't really seen any comments of people even questioning his guilt. But I also haven't seen people just, like, steamrolling him for his guilt. So I would be very surprised if they returned with a not guilty verdict. Oh, I would be shocked. But there is maybe 5% of me that could maybe see if they get one juror on there who has some sort of doubt, who has been in a marital spat before, who has had a cheating spouse before, who knows that sometimes, you know, behind the curtains of a marriage, there are some fights, things get ugly. Sometimes not combative and, like, physical, but arguments and things escalate to where it just takes that one person to hold out. I don't know.
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C
But if.
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B
That.
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C
If she came and attacked him, that would be the first thing you say on a phone call. You wouldn't say, I tried to attack this person. And also the syringes. Explain the syringes for sure. And I just. I felt so terrible for Emile on the stand because I just imagine, I mean, you're a teenage boy who now is receiving a call about horrific news. I mean, how could you ever even wrap your mind around that in and of itself? But now you have your father who's threatening to harm himself, and you're now the responsible parent in this scenario who's trying to.
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B
To De.
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C
Escalate. Yeah, de escalate it. You've got two younger siblings that you're living with that you're also concerned with. You have this enormous weight of responsibility that you should never have. And that was awful. And then here I'm curious to know what all of you think and what you think those attorneys. Was that their first trial? No, it honestly felt like a mock trial. And I was watching, like, why. Why do you say practice court? Their questions were terrible. The way they phrased it. They had to recorrect themselves so many times they asked the same thing over and over again. I. It really felt like amateur hour. And like they were pretending to be attorneys. It was really weird.
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B
Big. Yikes. And now watch. They get the not guilty, and you're like. They were just.
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C
I don't know. I'm curious to know specifically. I didn't, you know, specifically with the son's testimony. I felt like the way they were leading, it was very.
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B
They could have been trying to trip him up. But did you catch this with the son's testimony? Obviously, I don't know if he supports his dad, if he is, you know, if he forgives him or believes him or anything. But he did refer to him on the stand as the defendant.
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C
Yes.
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B
Not my dad. Like, kind of creating that boundary and that separation. And I thought that that was interesting. Unless he was maybe I'm overthinking it. And he was just trying to be more formal, being like. And who was that? The defendant rather than, like, my dad right there. So. But I thought that that was interesting.
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C
I know.
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B
I don't know. We'll see when the verdict comes. I wonder if there is an estimated time. Let me actually look right now. There is no verdict. So, again, this could be completely moot when this releases. But let's see. We'll soon learn his fate. Let's see what this says. Oh, Closing arguments. Yeah. Are expected on Tuesday. Yeah. Da, da, da. So we might have a verdict by the time this releases. We will see. Let's talk about something that so many women experience but not enough people actually talk about, and that is vaginal health. Because the truth is, things like hormones, workouts, tight clothing, even just everyday life, it can completely throw off your vaginal ph and flora. And when that balance is off, it can lead to discomfort, insecurity, just not feeling like yourself. And that is where URO comes in. URO Vaginal probiotic is specifically formulated to support vaginal health from the inside out. It has a blend of four powerful probiotic strains plus prebiotics to really help everything work more efficiently to support healthy ph, healthy vaginal flora, overall balance. And when you take it daily, just two capsules a day, many women have noticed real improvements in as little as eight weeks, sometimes even sooner. We're talking about feeling more comfortable, more confident, more like yourself. Again, a lot of the reviews have said that their intimacy has improved because they have felt more confident. Because when your body feels balanced, everything else just feels better, too. So if you've been dealing with any of those issues or you just want to stay proactive about your health. This is definitely something worth trying. Take proactive care of your health and head to oppositive.com ae or enter ae at checkout for 25 off your first purchase. That's o p o s I t I v.com ae for 25% off. You know those moments during the day where you just need, you know, a little something something? Maybe it's a mid afternoon slump or you're craving something comforting. You still want to stay aligned with your wellness goals though, so you're not like reaching for the chocolate or the cheez. Its if you're me and all of these things but you feel like you need a pick me up. Well that is why you will probably love Cachava's new coffee flavor because it's the perfect balance of indulgence and intention. You get rich smooth coffee flavor but with premium decaffeinated Brazilian beans. But it's also packed with real whole body nutrition. And I've talked to you about their shakes before too. Kachava is an all in one nutrition shake that is made with high quality plant based ingredients. No fillers, no artificial flavors, no sweeteners, just clean, nutrient dense fuel. I personally like their strawberry flavor a lot. I sometimes will have it in the morning. You can mix it with different things. It's great. And each serving gives you 25 grams of protein, 6 grams of fiber plus greens, adaptogens, probiotics and essential vitamins and minerals. So while it tastes like a nice little yummy treat, it actually is supporting your energy, your digestion, your metabolism and overall wellness. And that's what I love about it. It satisfies the cravings but it also supports your body. So whether you're starting your morning, you're resetting in the afternoon, or you just need something quick and nourishing, it is such an easy go to and for all those coffee drinkers. Instead of actually grabbing the cup of coffee, you definitely need to try their new coffee flavor because it'll, you know, it's like a substitute but better for you. So treat yourself to the flavor and nutrition that your body craves. Go to cachava.com and use code AE for 15% off your first order. That's Kachava K A C H A V A dot com code AE. All right, so I hate to do it, I hate to say it, but we need to talk about the Duggars again.
- [25:32]
C
You had some mixed reviews in the comments. There was a healthy Amount of people
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B
that were like, please don't they so disgusting. And they're getting more disgusting by the minute, like, and every time I think about them, I'm just disgusting. Yeah. So grossed out. So the biggest update right now, again at the time of this recording, because a couple of weeks ago, you guys, like, came from my throat. You're like, there's new news. I'm like, okay, well, I can't release this in real time. But the biggest update as of right now relates to what we talked about last week, which was that Joseph Duggar had his Bond set at $600,000 back on March 31st. And sure enough, that very same day, disgusting ass Duggar bonded out, which, let's just pause there for a second because the amount that they likely had to pay to get him out of jail is much smaller than $600,000, but it's also not a small number. It's usually 10% of the total bond amount that needs to be paid to be released. So in this case, that would be 60 grand that needs to be paid up front. And according to reports, his wife Kendra was the one who bailed Joseph out. But the question was, where'd she get that money? Now, sources say that she actually moved out of their house and that she put it on the market as a rental and that she's been selling off their personal belongings. Things like trailers, a pressure washer, a wood splitter, even things like a four wheeler, like, you know, an atv. Big ticket items that would certainly have a higher price tag. Things that realistically people don't just usually sell off unless they need that money or, or they are upgrading to something better. And something here also tells me that they aren't going to be like buying the newest, latest and greatest equipment to replace what they're selling. It looks like they need the cash. Now, the reason we even know about this is because of the recorded jail calls between Kendra and Joseph. And some of those calls, they were actively trying to figure out how to come up with the money that was needed. And when you really do stop and think about it too, these don't sound like things that they are using on a regular basis or really even need, especially if they end up in prison. So, I mean, selling them, it's not a bad idea. You're not going to use a pressure washer when you're locked up. You're not going to use an ATV, right? And a $600,000 bond, even if you're only paying a portion up front, plus the legal fees that you're going to have in multiple states for both of your cases. It's going to add up fast and you certainly are going to be needing, you know, that cash money. But even though he's out now, it's not a back to normal situation. Not even close. One of the biggest conditions of his release is that he cannot have unsupervised contact with minors, including his children. And then you also layer in everything that's going on with his wife Kendra, because we've talked about that as well on here. According to reports, Kendra also does not currently have her children with her and allegedly she can't see them for about a month. Following that, everything that had unfolded, I guess CPS intervened and it's a month until she's even able to have supervised visits. But even that I think is a little bit of a gray area right now. But some of this is coming directly from Joseph's sister Anna, who by the way, is married to Josh Duggar, the foul, disgusting human being who is in like federal lockup for all of his CSAM stuff that's been going on. So Anna had sent an email to Joseph the morning after Kendra was arrested. And Anna said, quote, she was strong on the phone call, except for when she talked about it being a month before she can see the kids. So a lot of people have been running with this whole thing of like she permanently lost custody. Great, the kids are safe. But just to be clear, that hasn't been confirmed. Not yet anyways. Apparently these are just temporary restrictions that are tied to her own charges and not just Joseph's charges, which I want to just talk about this for a moment too. We talked how Kendra's charges were for false imprisonment and child endangerment. And it was because when the police went to investigate the house due to Joseph's crimes, they found locks on the outside of the children's doors. And so it was four counts, I believe in total or for each charge. So what I'm hearing now and again we're going to vet this, confirm it, but as of right now it has not been confirmed. But what I am hearing is that it was in addition to those locks on the outside of the doors, it was also the living conditions in which was happening inside that house. Not, don't think house of horrors, like feces everywhere and food everywhere, but obviously not great living conditions for children to be in. And then the doors are of course one of the things that stood out most, having locks on the outside of them. So I mean, however you frame it, it is not Looking good for either of them. And it's kind of like there's another expression I'm thinking like the apple doesn't fall far, but where is it like birds of a feather. Oh, like where it's like, you know that there's bad behavior just bred within this family. Even now the in laws who are coming into all of it because it's that cult like mentality, it's the grooming, it's the hush hush, stay quiet if somebody's doing something. You know were going to get them private treatment. That's why they had sent Josh off to that weirdo camp years and years before his arrest when he was touching his sisters. And it's like they try to just handle it within the family. And it's like, well no, now more people are coming in and here's what I got to say. Not trying to shame anybody who may be a victim in this in terms of like marrying into this family, not the victims they've actually abused, but because they may have grown up in the cult as well and they could have been brainwashed and they don't know. But like who the hell is willingly marrying into this fucking family?
- [31:01]
C
That's what I was thinking. I'm thinking that's so sad, like guilty by association for anybody married in or children or associated with that family. And it's sad especially for kids who have the stigma then because to your point, I mean you're not letting your kids go play over at that house or probably, you probably wouldn't even encourage a friendship because who knows what's going to be said or shared. And you, you just want to shield your children totally.
- [31:27]
B
Or well imagine like, and I get it, she, I don't know how long she knew the family and grew up with them. Kendra and even Anna I guess if we're talking about everybody. But imagine if like right now I came to you and I was like, I'm dating this guy, his name's Joseph. He was on a reality show called 19 Kids and Counting. He has this big family, like he's all about family values. He has a little bit of weird beliefs, but like all this. And his brother is currently in federal lockup for CSAM material. But I really like him. So I'm gonna marry him and have children with him and let him around my kid. I don't know, like there's just something,
- [32:01]
C
I mean it's hard because I know that is like you don't want to
- [32:06]
B
think that they're guilty because of their family members behavior, but in Situations like this, it is bred from within.
- [32:10]
C
2. When there's multiple situations within a family, it's one thing when it's just an isolated incident, but when you realize, oh, perhaps this is a. A result of their environment and how it's. It's. It's in their control, but also there's some of it that just was naturally part of their environment and probably instilled in them.
- [32:29]
B
So, like, destigmatized and all that. Because even the mom, in old interviews with her, like, tiny little voice and stuff, would say things like, you know,
- [32:37]
C
like, she didn't have a firm grasp on reality.
- [32:39]
B
No. And she was very much like, you follow the male. They're the patriarch of the family. You just are there to support them. You're there to have sex with them. You're there to per. Like, do whatever they need to so they can provide and be the man. And which.
- [32:50]
C
It could be a coping mechanism too. I've. I've known people who have had some unfortunate family situations where they're. And they have said, like, my mom just kind of disassociated because it was just like, easier to not acknowledge what was going on.
- [33:05]
B
I just like, yeah, these scumbag people. Josh, Joseph, even though he hasn't been convicted yet, Kendra too. We'll see what is the truth and what's going on and all of that. I don't know. However you frame it, it just is not looking good for them. And you have all of these pieces happening at once. Joseph's out of jail. Kendra has now been separated from the children for a period of time. Their home is no longer functioning as their family home. And somehow it's being turned into, like, a source of income. Renting it out, selling things off, doing whatever they need to do, and just, you know, doing whatever they need to do, I guess, to stay afloat. So for now, this is where things stand, at least for this week. But based on how quickly things have been evolving over the last couple of weeks, this is one of those cases where we probably are going to keep seeing updates, even though they may slow down for a bit at some point. I'm sure that we will continue to see updates come through. So I will certainly keep you all posted with what we learn and what happens.
- [34:00]
C
But let's hope nothing new.
- [34:01]
B
Let's hope nothing new, and let's hope that looks. I'm all for reunification and getting people back with their family if it's a safe environment. But this based on what we know, and we only know a little fraction of it. It does not feel like a safe environment. So 30 days, in my opinion, is not enough. They need to go with. It's hard because, like, you want to say, they need to go with the family. What family now?
- [34:23]
C
I was.
- [34:23]
B
Sorry. Like, it's crazy. And then you, like, it's so sad. These poor kids who did nothing but be born into this, you know, it's awful.
- [34:34]
C
Well, I'm going to give you one guess as to what state this next case is out of.
- [34:39]
B
Give me a. Give me a headline or a hint of what it involves.
- [34:43]
C
A heavy crime state.
- [34:44]
B
Florida.
- [34:45]
C
Yes, Florida.
- [34:46]
B
Really?
- [34:46]
C
Yeah. I couldn't even tell you a first one. Sorry.
- [34:48]
B
All my. What is it? Floridians. I love you guys.
- [34:51]
C
I know, but it's.
- [34:51]
B
I'm actually going to be there next week, so I love you.
- [34:54]
C
Well, this next one has many, many layers to it and just keeps getting worse because it started as a missing persons case in Florida and then quickly turned into something that people are comparing to a real life episode of Dexter and not just in a casual way. So here's what we know. Back on March 28, police in Palm Bay, Florida were called out to a remote area known as the compound after people noticed vultures circling around an abandoned suitcase. And when officers got there, they didn't just find one suitcase, they found two. And both contained human remains. And when officers got there, they didn't find just one suitcase, they found two, both containing human remains. And inside one of those suitcases, investigators found a knife and an Amazon package with a name on it. Lucas Sander Jones. So almost immediately, police had a lead and a lot of questions that needed to be answered. And when they started digging into that, everything started to unravel. Because around that same time, a 28 year old man named Coley Lee Daniel had just been reported missing. And he had last been seen on March 20th going into 19 year old Lucas Jones's house. That same person whose name was on that Amazon package. Now here's where things start to get strange. According to the court documents, Coley's parents actually went looking for him that night when he didn't come home. They used Find My iPhone to track Coley's iPad and ended up at Lucas's house. When they went up to the door asking to see Coley, just wondering where he was. Lucas said that he was inside, but he that he didn't want to come to the door. So Coley's parents refused to leave until they actually saw him with their own eyes. But Lucas refused to let them in. Police even responded shortly after and again the next morning. But Lucas also refused to let them in and reported that there were no signs of Coley being at the house. So now investigators were working backwards. There were two suitcases found with human remains connecting to that missing person and going back to the last place where that missing person was seen alive. And again, that led them right back to Lucas's house. And when they executed their search warrant, they reportedly found blood inside the home and a knife similar to the one recovered from the suitcases. But then came something else that really shifted everything, because a huge part of the case came from Lucas's girlfriend. At first, she gave police a version of events that wasn't entirely accurate. But later, she came back and changed her whole story. And what she told them was honestly chilling. She said that Lucas confessed to her, telling her, quote, I killed somebody and cut him up. And according to her statement, he didn't just say it, but. But he explained exactly what had happened. She told investigators that Lucas said he beat Coley with a baseball bat, then dismembered his body using a knife cleaver and saw before placing the remains into suitcases and dumping them at the compound. Which again, lines up exactly with what police found. Now, the girlfriend's statements don't stop there. She allegedly told police she initially lied because Lucas had coached her on what to say and that she was afraid of him to the point where she thought she could even be next. She also described there being blood in the house, being asked to help clean, and even driving Lucas to the compound and seeing him unload containers and leave them there, not knowing what he was dumping. But what was Lucas's motive? Well, according to investigators, this wasn't random. They believe he specifically targeted Coley because he was a registered sex offender. There are even claims that Lucas had looked up or printed lists of sex offenders in the area beforehand. So when you hear what comes next, just keep that in mind. Because the part that has shocked everyone is that investigators say Lucas allegedly kept some of the victim's blood on microscope slides, which is why some people are drawing comparisons to the TV show Dexter, mostly because of the blood on the slides, but also because of this idea of vigilante justice. And as far as charges go, this escalated very quickly. Lucas was initially arrested on charges related to tampering with evidence, abuse of a corpse, and improper disposal of human remains. And he actually bonded out. But then just days later, he was rearrested on a second degree murder charge and is now being held without bond at this point, investigators have confirmed this was a homicide involving blunt force trauma and dismemberment. And what investigators are saying about the motive there may still be a lot more to this case than what happened just that night. So we'll be following along to see if there's any more answers or explanation as to why he did this.
- [39:38]
B
I mean, my first question was, what's a 19 year old doing hanging out with a 28 year old? That's a pretty big difference. And I mean, for a 19 year old to be capable of that kind of violence is scary. But also then when Coley's parents tracked him, they tracked his tablet to Lucas's house, which in my mind would make me think they were friendly enough to be hanging out. Like, who just brings an iPad over to somebody's house unless you're hanging out or unless you're trying to sell the iPad or something like that? There's something. There is something weird, I fear, with their relationship.
- [40:09]
C
I think there's something weird and like, why do you have this? Why can't I think of the word like hatred and hatred and motivation to seek out the registered sex offenders and then bring justice in your own way. So that leads me to think, like, was there perhaps some sort of past trauma or.
- [40:27]
B
Or were they friends and was Coley aggressive toward him and he like. And that. Because again, they were hanging out and he was at his house and he brought his tablet over and things like that. Like.
- [40:35]
C
But it sounds like he pulled the list beforehand.
- [40:38]
B
I think he had pulled a list to see people. Yeah. Who were out there and. But it didn't say that he found Coley on that list. Right. Or did he?
- [40:46]
C
Yeah, he did. Oh, and he was a. He was a registered sex offender, which is like rumored to be the motive. So I was thinking, like, there's got
- [40:52]
B
to be more going on. It just is weird. So I wonder what their relationship.
- [40:56]
C
And to throw away your whole life to for vigilante. Yeah. I mean, there must be some deep rooted reason why you're doing that.
- [41:04]
B
Yeah, that's a lot of violence too, for a 19 year old. I mean, I've seen way worse at way younger. But like to dismember somebody with a cleaver and then. Yeah. To save the blood in microscope slides. I've never seen Dexter. I've personally never watched it. I think Jay watched it, but our brother. But I've never watched it. Let me know if we should. I'm always looking for new shows to binge, but. Yeah, that's disturbing.
- [41:25]
C
There must be more to it.
- [41:27]
B
Yeah. In other news, I saw some updates. When was it? Shoot. Hi. I'm drawing a blank. I saw some updates on something this morning and I wanted to talk about it, but now I can't remember what it is.
- [41:40]
C
Damn it. Did you happen to look up the photos that I was telling you?
- [41:45]
B
I think that might have been something older or something because, yeah, I didn't really see much of that out there. But I know that there was new information released in Coburger regarding, like the gag order and them now saying, you know, certain things that they were. It's stuff we already knew. Like there was no social media connection, like things like that, which we already knew that they, the prosecution never was able to even determine the correct target and stuff like that. But there was a case I thought that I saw that I wanted to talk about. But maybe not. Maybe not, I don't know. And that's on getting older, my friends. So thank you for tuning in to another episode. Make sure that you're following the podcast if you are not already. Also, we talked about this a couple weeks ago on Headline Highlights. Remember that case, Was it also Florida, the two girls? Oh, in school. Yeah, right.
- [42:34]
C
It was Florida. And people are upset because they're being charged as adults. But then you have Anna Kepner's stepson, that stepbrother that's being charged as a minor. So people are like not understanding Florida right now.
- [42:48]
B
Well, in Aiden food, she was charged as an adult. I. I think it probably depends on the district and all that. But a couple weeks ago in Headline Highlights, we talked about this case of the two girls in high school who were plotting their classmates murder. If you remember, and listen to that episode, she was planning to murder him so that she could not reincarnate, but bring back to life the Sandy Hook shooter, Adam, and that she was going to slash his throat in the bathroom stall, smoke a cigarette, bring this guy back to life who she's in love with or whatever. And it's her and a friend of hers that like planned this whole thing together. Point being, there was a lot of disturbing images and body cam footage and interrogation stuff. And I had said, hey, do you guys want the Deep Dive on this? The Deep Dive came out this week. It came out on Tuesday, so you can go listen to it right now. But it's on my second true crime podcast, Feed 10 to Life. But yeah, it's wild. These two girls were like diabolical. And the planning and the notes left behind for the parents and just the Scheming and plotting it. And it's so scary when you like.
- [43:51]
C
It really is.
- [43:52]
B
And when you hear the interviews which we have in the episode with these girls, it is so scary because there's no remorse.
- [43:58]
C
I was going to say no remorse. I think I said this when we covered it. The audacity.
- [44:02]
B
Yes. Yes. So that's. It's wild. But that full case deep dive is out right now on the 10 to life feed. So as a reminder, if you have not started following that podcast feed yet, now is the time to do it. Go follow. It's free. It's wherever you get your podcasts. And we also put out an episode Monday. Little reminder again, friendly reminder. New episodes every Monday, Tuesday, Thursday and every other Friday. And you can, of course get even more bonus episodes and content over on Patreon. Patreon.com Annie Elise. What? Why are you smiling at me like that?
- [44:38]
C
I know. I feel like it was a long episode. Episode and like a lot going on.
- [44:42]
B
And there's a lot going on.
- [44:44]
C
People we don't want to talk about ever again.
- [44:46]
B
The Duckers. I know. Well, on that note, I'm gonna hold up my Tumblr right now that says, be nice. Don't kill people. A reminder to go get your merch. And God forbid you do encounter some creepy asshole in an alleyway. Get your safety kit so that you can protect yourself. Or on a hike in. In Hawaii.
- [45:06]
C
Yes.
- [45:06]
B
Yeah.
- [45:07]
C
With your significant other.
- [45:08]
B
Yeah. God, how grim.
- [45:11]
C
I know. Honestly, like, come on. There's a reason we don't hike, o'. Brien.
- [45:15]
B
We honestly, like, why are people the way they are? Maybe that's the new tagline. Why are people the way they are? Amen.
- [45:23]
C
Amen.
- [45:24]
B
Could apply to a lot of people. Yes. So, yes, merch is out. It's available to public. Annie elise.com but the merch shop is closing on Monday. We won't be back until probably, probably the fall. So grab it now. And if you're going to Crime Con, grab your merch so you can wear it to Crime Con. All right, thanks again guys for tuning in. I will be back with you on Monday with an all new deep dive into a case. Go listen to that other deep dive of the two crazy ass teenage girls over on 10 to Life. It's out now and talk to you soon. Bye.