Guest/Co-host or Interviewee (4:23)

House.

Annie Elise (4:24)

The owner of the home was a bluegrass musician and he was known for bringing in all kinds of artistic students and their friends into this house. So all in all, it really was the perfect place to live as a college student. And even though it was a place where a lot of young people stayed and the noise could get a little crazy and people were always turning over and in and out, the neighbors never complained. I mean, it's not like it was a frat house that kept the music playing every night until 4am but still with that kind of turnover and people always coming and going, I think neighbors normally and typically would probably be frustrated, but not here. And there were a lot of gatherings there, don't get me wrong, but they were always more just like laid back. And what did they call it when I was in high school or not even high school, but like college do like kickbacks. Kickbacks. It's not a party, it's a kickback where I don't even know what that means and where that word came from, but what it basically equated to or what our definition equated to was like a party was where it's like, come one, come all, there's a keg, it's at A house, it's gonna be crazy. And a kickb is more like, you know, it's like 10 or 15 of us. We'll be drinking, we'll be chilling, we'll be barbecuing. And it seemed like that was more the speed of this house, more like kickback energy, not like rager energy. The students always respected the neighbors and they kept things as quiet as possible. So in return the neighbors kept to themselves. They just minded their own business. And besides the area itself being pretty quiet, Calgary was overall a good place to live. There wasn't much crime at all, especially violent crime. So all of that to say when they received 3911 calls back to back within two minutes and heard a reporting of a stabbing incident. I mean the authorities were shocked. They knew that it was going to be something bad. Luckily the first responders were at Butler Mansion within just minutes of the last 911 call. And they arrived at the scene at approximately 1:26am and when I describe the scene, I have to be honest with you, it does sound like something out of a slasher movie. Truly it does. Because the outside of the house, it looked completely normal. It looked very, you know, unassuming aside from the person who was outside lying on the front lawn and not moving. And that person was 23 year old Joshua Hunter. And Joshua had been stabbed a total of six times. He was immediately transported to the local hospital but by 2:17am he was pronounced dead. Then when the authorities went inside the home they found what was even more devastating. Inside the home they found 21 year old Zachariah Rathwell, 22 year old Jordan Segura and 27 year old Lawrence Hong. All of them were unfortunately already deceased. They had each been stabbed some multiple times. Zachariah had been stabbed seven times, Jordan was stabbed once and Lawrence was stabbed four times. And all three of these bodies, it's not like they were clustered together and it had happened in one isolated location. They were spread out. Zachariah was found in the kitchen. Jordan and Lawrence were found in the living room area. And Lawrence had been found on the couch while Jordan was found near one of the couches. But it looked like a scene from a Scream movie or some sort of horror movie of one dead college student on the lawn. You have three more in the house spread out like what is going on here? And that wasn't even the only tragedy that was waiting for authorities inside this home. Inside the dining room was 23 year old Caitlyn Pereiras. Caitlyn had been stabbed four times. Now when the authorities arrived, she did still have a pulse. So like Joshua, she was transported to the local hospital. However, by 3am that night, she too unfortunately was pronounced dead. So that is a total of five victims, five incredibly young people who lost their lives that night. And in arguably one of the most horrific ways, which personally I think that stabbing deaths are something that a lot of people really fear. I know myself, I am terrified of that. I feel like I'd way rather personally be shot than be stabbed. I mean, I'd rather die in my sleep, but you know what I mean. But I think especially after hearing about the Idaho four murders, I think everybody is just terrified of that. It's such a horrific and brutal and hand, I want to say hands on, but kind of like hands on, personal way to be killed. Because stabbings always involve somebody who is attacking their victim at an incredibly close range just over and over again. It's very, very personal in a sense. And sometimes they're not as quick as we imagine them to be. And it really does send chills down my spine.

Guest/Co-host or Interviewee (9:09)

The scene was horrific. It's extremely difficult to go into a scene like that with young people who've been killed, who've been murdered.

Annie Elise (9:21)

Now, before we go any further on this case and how the night unfolded and what truly happened inside that home, I do want to talk about the victims again, just so that you can get a sense of who they were, their friendships, their dynamics, and what some of them were celebrating that night. Joshua Hunter, who had been found on the front lawn, and Zachariah, who had been found in the kitchen. They were very good friends and they were also bandmates. Joshua was the drummer and Zachariah was the lead singer. Their band, Zachariah and the Prophets, had just been celebrating the release of their first album.

Guest/Co-host or Interviewee (9:53)

They absolutely just loved what they were doing when they were up there. That's what they live for. That's why, that's why they existed, was to be up there on stage and they, you know, the music was their life.

Annie Elise (10:07)

Jordan was a religious studies major at the University of Calgary and he had dreams of one day becoming a humanitarian worker. And despite his very busy schedule, juggling school, juggling the band, all of these things, he also worked at a local funeral home and he did that as more of a passion. He tried to bring peace to these families and loved ones who lost people and were trying to grieve, of course, unbeknownst to him, knowing that his own family would be the ones needing that comfort sooner rather than later.

Guest/Co-host or Interviewee (10:36)

Yes, we deal with it, but it always hurts when something like this happens in the community. But this one hit with Jordan being part of our team, it's made it extremely difficult for all of us. Tremendous loss for all of us. He was just a young man who cared, a young man who wanted to serve people.

Annie Elise (10:53)

Now, as for Lawrence, Lawrence was described by his friends and family as a little bit nerdy, but also the funniest person in the entire world. He, he was an aspiring urban planner, and he was somebody who was very passionate about his community. And he was constantly doing volunteer work in his free time. Lawrence was just the sweetest guy. Smiles for everyone. Caitlyn was a dancer. Her friends described her as a, quote, shining light in everyone's lives whose light was unfortunately dimmed far too soon.

Guest/Co-host or Interviewee (11:24)

Most beautiful person you would ever meet.

Annie Elise (11:27)

Just perfect in every way. Kind hearted, so passionate. She inspired me to be a better dancer.

Guest/Co-host or Interviewee (11:34)

We danced with her ever since we were little.

Annie Elise (11:36)

We have so many good memories, but I can't think of a more undeserving

Guest/Co-host or Interviewee (11:43)

person for this to happen to.

Annie Elise (11:45)

So these were all very good people, young adults on the cusp of doing greatness in their lives. They had loved ones. They had hopes, dreams, and aspirations that they would never be able to live out and achieve. So what exactly happened that night at Butler Mansion, the place where so many students once called home and got together? Well, the truth is, that night had started off pretty normal. The victims came from different backgrounds, but they all knew each other one way or another. They were good friends. Some of them had met in high school or junior high, some in college. Some just had mutual friends, but they all were connected to one another. And again, I just, I can't emphasize it enough. They were all good people. Now, I will say this, the victims didn't all go to the same university. However, everybody knew each other one way or another. And the night before those 911 calls came in. So the 14th, there was a get together, like so many other times at Butler Mansion. Now this one in particular was to celebrate the last day of winter semester classes at the University of Calgary. It was also, quote, Bermuda short stay, which apparently it's a tradition at the University of Calgary to have a party on the last day of classes and everybody wears Bermuda shorts, which kind of just tells you how wholesome this whole group is. Right? That's what they're doing. Like it's a Bermuda shorts party. It started back 60s and I guess it just stuck ever since. And it's not like a little casual thing where Only some people participate. It's a huge party day for everyone on campus. So the five people who were currently living in that house decided that they were going to host a party. Although out of the victims that I mentioned earlier, Jordan was the only one who actually lived at the house. So don't get the five victims and the five people living there confused. They didn't all live there together. And actually, just like before, it wasn't this huge rager. It was just this small, fun little get together, little kickback, if you will, celebrating the, you know, end of the semester. So as the night went on, more people left, and the group of people who were left at the house had dwindled down to just a few. By midnight, everybody had kind of just spread out and started doing their own things. There were some people in bedrooms, some people in the common areas, some people who went to McDonald's to grab some late night food, munchies, whatever you would call it, just starting to break up and separate for the evening. The first 911 call that came in that night was from a woman named Terry Lewis. Terry lived at Butler Mansion in one of the upstairs bedrooms. Now, by that time of night, she was over the partying, she had gone upstairs, and she went to sleep. So to be honest, she wasn't even really sure who all was still there. I'm not even sure if she knew that some people had gone to McDonald's at that point. All she knew is, you know, I'm going to sleep, I'm going upstairs. Everybody else, fend for yourselves. However, right when she was almost asleep, she heard something that jolted her awake. A very loud noise. It sounded like yelling or some kind of commotion, which again, in this house, that was not normal. This was very chill, very low key, very mellow. So it's not like there had been yelling and loud music going all night. And it was some rager. This noise now stood out. And that's when Terry heard what sounded like a male voice yelling. Something along the lines of, it's okay, it's cool, dude, calm down. Which on the surface, those words might not sound like a lot, but it was the way that these words were being said that made Terry feel like something was up. It almost sounded like somebody was trying to diffuse a fight. And I'm sure you've heard things like that before, like, calm down, chill back up, like, it's okay, we're. You're trying to get in the middle of something before it escalates to something unmanageable. So Terry went Downstairs to investigate. But that's when she came across an absolutely gruesome discovery. The lifeless bodies of Zachariah, Jordan, Caitlyn, and Lawrence, all of them just laying throughout the house, bleeding from apparent stab wounds. Now, I'm not sure if any of them were showing any signs of life at this point or if Terry even knew what she was processing at that point when she was seeing all of this. The later accounts didn't specify, so we don't really know how it went down from Terry's point of view, but I think it's fair to say that she saw blood and she saw a lot of it. I would imagine that maybe she even checked if any of the victims were still conscious or making noises or, like, awake, being like, hey, Zachariah. Zachariah, Jordan. Jordan. And just completely unresponsive. Terry eventually ran out front, and I think likely because of some of the noises that she was hearing. And I say that because outside was even more of a chaotic scene. I mentioned earlier that some people had left to go grab food at McDonald's, and it turns out that they had just pulled back into the driveway at Butler Mansion as these stabbings had gone down. So when Terry ran outside, she saw three of her other roommates. Brendan, Sarah, and Joe. She also saw their friend Jada. Now, by this point, Joshua, the victim, who was lying on the front lawn, was going in and out of consciousness. When Brendan and the others had returned back home from McDonald's, they had heard screaming inside the house. Then, literally just a second later, they saw Joshua running out to the front lawn, and he was being followed by someone with a knife. It was clear that Joshua had already been injured, but he was running. He was trying to escape as he was being attacked and trying to fight for his life. So that's when Brendan started chasing the person who had the knife down the street. Then he came back once. That person, unfortunately got away. So that's when then Terry came into the picture, seeing everything that had been unfolding. And at this point, everything was in total confusion. Terry didn't know anything about this alleged perpetrator. All she knew was that four of her own friends were inside her house, lying in their own blood, clinging to life. Four friends who had just been laughing and having fun just an hour earlier. Perfectly healthy, perfectly normal. And now chaos. Meanwhile, the people who had gone to McDonald's returned back and only heard screaming, and then, see, saw Joshua running. They didn't know what was going on. They didn't even know what had fully unfolded inside house. They just knew that Joshua was injured and that someone was responsible for all of this chaos and that person had just completely fled the scene. But even more than that, that that person who fled was someone that they all knew. Finding a great doctor shouldn't feel like a full time job, but for a lot of people like moi is, it does. But that's why I want to tell you about ZocDoc. I'm obsessed with ZocDoc. My brother now uses it and ZocDoc is a free app and website that helps you find and book high quality in network doctors so that you can find someone you actually love. We're talking about booking appointments with over 150,000 providers across all 50 states. Whether you're looking for dermatology, dentistry, primary care, eye care, or one of the 200 plus specialties on Zocdoc, you can search by specialty or even by symptoms to build the care team that's right for you. You can choose to see your doctor in person or do a video visit as well. Whatever works best for your schedule. And you can read thousands of verified patient reviews so that you really know who you're booking with. 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Once again, that's Daily Look.com for 50% off and make sure that you use my promo code seriously so you get the discount and so they know I sent you one Last time Daily Look.com and promo code seriously. So in the middle of all of this chaos, Brendan yelled at Terry to call 911. Joshua of course needed medical attention right away. The later 911 calls were made by Joe and Jada once they were back inside the house and trying to help the other victims. Now during that very first 911 call, Terry was able to tell the operator who was responsible for these stabbings. According to Brendan, who remember chased him down the street, it was 22 year old Matthew DeGrood. Now obviously for you listeners hearing this case for the first time, hearing the name Matthew DeGroode is not a huge mic drop moment to you who guy, what does that mean? But to Terry hearing that information for the first time, it was like a punch to the gut because Matthew had been at that party earlier. He was one of their friends. Now Terry only told the operator Matthew's name but during Joe's call a couple of minutes later, he was able to give the operator a very good description of him. So who was Matthew? Who was this guy now loose on the streets of Calgary after stabbing five of his own friends, none of whom would survive? Well, like many of the victims, Matthew attended the University of Calgary. Many people in the community already knew who he was. Not just from the university, but also because his dad was a high ranking police officer in the area. The DeGrood family had never been associated with anything negative ever at all before. So now hearing it in the same sentence as a quintuple stabbing, it was shocking. He never seemed like the kind of person who would do something like this. Now while Matthew may have known a few people at the party, he was mostly connected to everybody through his friendship with Brendan because Brendan had been his best friend since childhood. And we'll get into More of that shortly. Matthew had graduated a year earlier in April of 2013, and he graduated with his bachelor's degree in psychology. He also graduated with a minor in law and society, which I think is so interesting. Again, just to quickly draw on the parallels with the Idaho four case, we know that Brian Kohberger studied criminology and spoke with several perpetrators and convicted felons and all of that. And now here we have another person who had just graduated and had his bachelor's in psychology, also a minor in law and society, which they all kind of like, you know, cycle in and orbit one another. Right? I don't know, maybe I'm reaching and there's not a parallel. I'm not saying it's like a copycat. Not, that's not at all what I mean. I just mean like, what are the chances of like these younger men who go to school for the very thing they end up doing or like adjacent to what they end up doing? Right. So Matthew had been working at a local Safeway and he was only months away from attending the University of Calgary Law School that coming September. And he was a totally normal seeming guy. I mean, at least it looked that way on paper. He was young, he had friends, he had his bachelor's degree, a steady job, and he was months away from starting law school. And he seemingly had his life together. For a recent university grad, nobody would have expected Matthew to be the one responsible for such a heinous crime. Or at least you would think that nobody saw it coming. But let's go back to the party for a minute. As I said, it wasn't like Matthew was a complete stranger at the house that night. He was invited by Brendan. Brendan knew that Matthew had to work that night until pretty late. I think it was around 11pm but he still told him like, hey, come by, swing by after work, we're all going to be hanging out. So at the time of the stabbings, Matthew hadn't even been there all that long. And like I said earlier, things at the party were really starting to calm down by that point Anyway. Now I will say this, this isn't a case where the perpetrator was missing for days on end and like was evading police and nobody knew who he was, where he was or anything like that. It's a unique case for a lot of reasons. One of those reasons being that Matthew was apprehended fairly quickly. It also helps that there were witnesses in the immediate aftermath of the crimes. In fact, multiple people not only saw Matthew with a knife but also saw him trying to finish the job on Joshua. Brendan had even, as I mentioned, tried to chase him down himself. So the investigators knew right away who they were looking for, and they also knew what area. And as I mentioned, that first 911 call, it came in at around 1:21am Then by 1:30am Matthew was reportedly seen on Brentwood Boulevard, not too far from the Butler mansion. That tip also helped with pinning down a location. And during the search for Matthew, the investigators found two different knives at two different locations. So it was apparent that Matthew had just thrown them in different spots, hoping to get rid of the evidence. One of the knives was found in a dumpster nearby. Another one was tossed on the sidewalk just down the street from the crime scene. So, I mean, he wasn't that smart in the grand scheme of things. He was leaving a trail behind. It was only a matter of time before he was eventually caught. And sure enough, by 2:15am Matthew was found and arrested. But it wasn't exactly an easy arrest. The officers had brought in a canine dog to help with the search, and at one point, the dog had actually found him. But get this, Matthew punched the dog and then managed to get away. So by the time they found Matthew a second time, things were, of course, way more contentious and way more heated. And the officer who found him had the same canine dog with him. So there was an even bigger confrontation at this point. And according to court documents, a lot of force had been used by not only the officer, but also the canine dog. So it seems like Matthew wasn't trying to go down without a fight, but they eventually got him. And you have to keep in mind, too, that this arrest wasn't only difficult for the investigators because of the brutal nature of the crime or the physical altercations that Matthew was getting into with the canine dog and the officers. But it was mentally challenging as well, because the truth was, the people who were searching for Matthew that night, hunting him down like the murderer he was, they all knew him. Matthew's dad had been working for the police department longer than Matthew had been alive at that point. Some of the officers from that day also had remembered Matthew from when he was in diapers. They had seen him grow up through every phase of his life, and now they were chasing him. He was a murderer suspect. Like, it was blowing everybody's minds. And all of the details combined together made this case go viral in Canada very fast. I mean, a well known police officer's son who is wanted for stabbing and killing five people, five friends, of his. That's a headline that people certainly are not going to ignore.

Guest/Co-host or Interviewee (27:41)

I am Douglas DeGroode and I am an inspector with the Calgary Police Service. But I'm here today not as a police officer, but as a parent and a husband. I speak for my wife, Susan de Grven. As we are one voice, We are shocked and devastated. And we are trying to make sense of what happened. We are deeply saddened for what the families and friends of the victims are going through. Your lives have been turned upside down. We know words cannot begin to ease your pain and suffer suffering. Please accept our deepest condolences and know you are in our hearts, our thoughts and our prayers.

Annie Elise (28:35)

Matthew's actual arrest, as in when he was being cuffed and transported, was pretty telling too, Starting with the fact that he was not cooperating. He was putting up a huge fight. But besides that, it also showed where Matthew was at mentally and it was not in a good place. And look, as true crime enthusiasts or true crime connoisseurs, you probably know the drill when somebody is being arrested. And you've also probably seen or heard clips in my episodes before. But after a person is handcuffed, they get the full pat down just to be sure that they don't have any weapons on them. There's no paraphernalia, there's nothing that can harm themselves or harm others. And when Matthew was being cuffed, one of the officers who was holding down his leg noted that he felt something small and hard in Matthew's sock. Now I don't know what they expected this object to be. Maybe a flashlight, maybe a knife, who really knows what it is? But I would be willing to guess that they never thought that it would turn out to be a tiny little mesh bag with a clove of garlic inside of it. It was weird. It was like, bro, why do you have garlic in your sock? What's going on here? But then after searching the rest of his body, they found the same thing inside his jacket pocket. Another little mesh bag with a clove of garlic. Now apparently in this moment, Matthew noticed the confused looks on the investigators faces like what the heck is going on here? Why does this guy have garlic all over his person? And that's when he said, almost very casually, that it was, quote, to keep the zombies away. Which personally I don't know much about zombies, but I always thought that cloves of garlic were more for vampires. But I guess in Matthew's case, garlic also worked as zombie repellent. I don't know. But that was red flag. Number one. And then it gets even worse from here. Instead of taking Matthew directly to the police department, they first took him to the local hospital. But luckily for the investigators, Matthew was not the greatest at keeping his mouth shut. Because while he was in the ambulance, he told one of the officers, I'm sorry, I had to kill them. Now, by now, the investigators minds were racing. First he talked about zombies and how he needed to repel them. Now he's talking about how he had to kill his friends. It just wasn't looking good. Then to add another confusing layer on top of it, Matthew started rambling about how he was an alien, how he was an alien that was born in an incubator. Then he went back to the fact that he had killed all of these people. And he talked about how if you kill in self defense, it's, quote, just and fair. So while he had apologized for killing people, he wasn't really sorry. He felt like it was what he had to do. And if you thought that those comments were wild, just wait. Because by the time that they had arrived at the hospital, Matthew had moved on from zombies to werewolves. He was telling doctors that he was being controlled by the sun God, who apparently is not fond of werewolves. So it was his mission to take all of them down. And Matthew was quoted as saying, I tried to kill them as quickly, as quickly and as humanly as I could, but they were struggling. And at no point during any of this did he seem emotional about it or like he showed any sort of remorse. It was just very casual, very collected, and it didn't matter whether he was talking about zombies or werewolves. He described what he had done as just this completely normal thing. So I think it's safe to say that everything that Matthew had said up until that point, it was a pretty big indicator of where his mental health stood. And through it all, one thing stayed the same. He had stabbed those five people. He never denied it. He never tried to act innocent. In fact, he kept admitting to it. So the admission never changed. But the why behind it, that continuously changed. Like I mentioned earlier, the two victims who were transported to the hospital unfortunately passed away shortly after. So it's not like the authorities were able to interview them and ask them what had happened. They were likely in critical condition from the moment that they were brought in until they passed away. So that meant that the only person who truly knew what went on that night inside that house was Matthew. Sure, the others knew a little bit because they were there prior to the attack, then they were there for the aftermath. They also were there for the chase. But nobody was in that room with Matthew when he started stabbing the people that he once called friends. So if the investigators wanted the truth about what happened that night, they knew that they were going to have to get the truth from Matthew. 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Very polished, very like five star resort Y. And you don't have to try too hard. So try salt and stone's discovery. Set yourself to find your perfect scent. Go to saltandstone.com TCO and use code TCO at checkout for 15 off. Your first order. That's saltonstone.com TCO and use Code TCO for 15 off. Unfortunately, there was no sit down with Matthew at that point to ask questions and get answers. And most of what I'm about to tell you is from a psych report that was made on September 17, 2014, so months after the murders. And this evaluation was all part of a bigger plan. You know, keeping in mind that there was probably going to be a future legal battle ahead.

Guest/Co-host or Interviewee (37:43)

Also, the Crown made an application to have my client transported to the Alberta Hospital to have him assessed to determine the issue of not cruelly responsible by a psychiatrist there.

Annie Elise (37:55)

So I'm just sort of confused why you said a preliminary GP still has to go through the NCR assessment.

Guest/Co-host or Interviewee (38:03)

Regardless of what the outcome of the assessment is, there's going to be preliminary hearing in this manner. It's. It's unavoidable.

Annie Elise (38:10)

So I want to go over this psych report because I think it really does have a lot of valuable information when you're looking at this case as a whole. Matthew was interviewed by one of the forensic psychiatry residents at Alberta Hospital. He told the doctors that in the months leading up to the murders, his life was pretty normal. He was a little bit stressed about starting law school that fall, but no different than anyone else who was about to start, you know, a very serious and rigorous program like that. Also, at the time that all of this happened, the media had been reporting that there were some kind of issues between Matthew and his sister, to which he told the doctor that, yeah, technically that was true. They weren't getting along exactly. But he said that the conflict between them was really not too severe or problematic. In fact, Matthew said that he honestly wasn't even sure when his thinking went from, hey, I'm a normal guy about to start law school to hey, I'm gonna now go on this mass murder spree of my friends. Matthew claimed that if he had to guess when that switch in his mind happened, it was probably around two weeks before the murders. He says that's when things started to feel a little bit different. And from the sounds of this report, it seems like the stuff that Matthew was reading at the time was a big trigger for him. Although it's not clear exactly what Matthew was reading, according to Matthew, he started to believe that he was the son of God, Also that he was the ancient Egyptian God Anubis. Now, the psych report didn't go into all of this, but honestly, I was pretty curious. So I knew I needed to brush up on my ancient Egyptian studies and see what the hell all of this meant. And I learned that this Anubis guy was the ancient Egyptian God of mummification, also the Egyptian God of the afterlife and the protector of tombs. It's believed that he would guide souls through the underworld. So, I don't know, it seems like maybe Matthew saw himself as this godlike figure who was heavily involved in death and the afterlife, and that he had to help take people from one to the next. But Matthew told the doctor that he started to believe that there was a conspiracy between the Illuminati vampires and werewolves. Apparently, all three of Them were fighting in battle with each other and there was going to be this gigantic war. I mean, think like Avengers, I guess, which also kind of sounds like Twilight a little bit, but I don't know. Now, if you're not familiar with the concept or the term Illuminati, it's a conspiracy. Some argue that it's real, but it hasn't been proven, about a group of secret global elite made up of powerful politicians, bankers, celebrities, business leaders, and supposedly they are all working together to control world events. It's been alleged that Jay Z is in the Illuminati, that Epstein was in the Illuminati, that it's just like, you know, the powerful elite and that they're the ones who really pull the strings. Which maybe given everything that's in the news these days, maybe it's not that much of a conspiracy, right? Maybe it is easier to believe. Who knows? But he also said that he believed that he was Darth Vader and that his dad, who he recently struggled to get along with, was evil. So just to recap, he's the son of God, Anubis. He's Darth Vader. There's a war between the Illuminati, vampires and werewolves, and he is facilitating all of it, according to Matthew. Now, the night of April 14th was a full moon, so you probably see where this is going. Matthew believed that because it was a full moon, the war was supposed to start and that the end of the world was coming. Here's the thing, though. According to him and his belief system, all of the evil vampires and werewolves were not going to look obvious. They were going to look like normal people, shape shifters, even, if you will. So that's why he said he had to prepare himself for whoever or whatever he was about to encounter. And I think that this is important to mention because his childhood best friend Brendan, the one who lived at Butler Mansion, and invited him to the party that night, he probably feels a lot of guilt, like maybe because he invited him into the house, that the blood of his friends is on his hands, which obviously we know that's not true. And from the way that Matthew describes it, he was just going to do what he had to do that night. Regardless of where he was. The invite to the party just made his mission all that much easier. But he was going to hunt people one way or another. Which, let me backtrack a little bit, maybe not, because the psych report did note that Matthew claims that he never went out that night with the intention of killing people. He says he was more like a general at war directing soldiers into battle. So take that how you will. I mean, in my opinion, it seems like he was almost saying he didn't have any intentions of killing those five specific people. But if people, you know, on the evil side or the shape shifters showed up that he knew what he had to do or he. What he felt like he had to do for this war. So I. I guess it could be open for interpretation. And I hope I'm not losing you all here, because I know that this is a lot. It's a lot of moving pieces, but this really is key to the entire case. So Matthew claimed that after Brendan invited him to the party, he started prepping for the war that night. He also brought gloves and a box cutter because he believed that his job as the general was to dismember the bodies of the evil and dispose of them before the police arrived. And according to him, the reason for that is because any and all police officers were also part of the conspiracy, and they were on the evil side as well. So with that in mind, it does make sense why he acted the way he did when he was arrested, right? He fought back. He punched the dog in the face if he truly thought they were evil. If he truly thought that. Now, according to the psych report, Matthew claimed that he brought a knife to the party and then gave it to Brendan. He believed that Brendan was on the good side and that Brendan needed this knife to defend himself. And I couldn't actually find anything else about this in any other sources, but I was curious if it was true and what Brendan's perspective on it was, which. I mean, imagine that you invite your friend to a party, they show up, they hand you a knife, and to kind of confirm, like, hey, we're both on the good side, Use this to protect yourself. I'd be a little freaked out. I'd be like, what are you talking about, protect myself? Why the hell do you have a knife? Why do I have a knife? Like, what's going on here? Now, Matthew claimed during his psych exam that he had no idea what time the war was going to start, that it wasn't scheduled, it wasn't going to be a certain, like, thing that would spark his attention because it's right when the full moon fully came out. He said there wasn't any sort of indicator that he would just know. However, some of the other partygoers have reported conflicting things. One guy, another childhood friend of Matthew's named Daniel, said that he and Matthew went on a small walk together the night of the party. And he said that during that walk, Matthew shared with him that the world was going to end at midnight. Which to me, that makes me think that he had a time in mind. Right. He knew when things were going to begin. We also know that around that time is when everything did go down. Apparently, Matthew also had told Brendan that the world was ending at midnight. So that's at least two people who were told that. Yet Matthew didn't start stabbing people right when the clock struck midnight. Yet he was still acting pretty off around that time. At around 12:30am another person at the party recalled how Matthew was sitting around the fire with some of the other partygoers. And as they were all sitting around the fire together, he did something really weird. There was an ax laying nearby. I'm assuming it was to cut up wood to use for this fire. But Matthew picked up the ax, put his cell phone on the blade, part of it, and then dropped it into the fire. And everyone standing around the fire acted quickly and tried to help him out. And even though he did this intentionally, one of them was able to get his phone out of the fire pretty quickly. But as soon as the fire was out of the flames, Matthew grabbed it and started smashing it with the axe until it was literally in pieces. So, I mean, it's not like Matthew was being totally normal and inconspicuous that night until the stabbings. He was being odd all night long. First with arriving with a knife, then this weird thing with his phone at the bonfire and the axe. And maybe people assumed he had just drank too much, that he was wasted and weird. Who really knows? But none of his actions could have really warned or prepared people for what was about to happen less than an hour later. And just for a little timeline refresher, the fire pit incident was around 12:30am Then Brendan and some of the others headed to McDonald's at 1:00am Then that first phone call into 911 came in at 1:21am but apparently it was a conversation with Zachariah that completely triggered a full mental breakdown in Matthew. He claimed that the two of them had been having their own private conversation in the kitchen, but that the conversation was anything but casual. Something about the end of the world was brought up. And that's when Matthew said that his ears started perking up, right up until Zachariah said something to him that just didn't sit right with him. Matthew claimed that Zachariah said something along the lines of, quote, maybe you'll die before me. Now, Matthew, who Was clearly not in a good headspace, Took this as almost a warning or a threat. He claimed that it was the moment that he knew that Zachariah was a werewolf. So Matthew grabbed the kitchen knife and he stabbed Zechariah seven times. And according to Matthew, he said that he even aimed for the heart because he thought that by stabbing the heart, it was the only way to kill a werewolf. So this was the official start of the war. He claimed that he had to attack the other four victims because he felt like they, too, were a part of the evil sides conspiracy, not because they were the only ones left at the party, but because allegedly they weren't socializing with him or being friendly to him earlier that evening. So that must have meant that they were evil. So next were Joshua and Jordan, who were in the living room area or on the nearby couches. Then Lawrence, who was already asleep by this point on the couch. And then lastly, Caitlyn. She was in the dining room when she was stabbed. And the reason why is because she had tried to run away. I assume since she was the last one to be attacked, she either heard something or knew that something was going on. Whether that was because she saw one of the others being stabbed, saw their bodies, or just heard the commotion, we really don't know. We may never know. But what we do know for sure is that she was trying to escape and get to safety. And even though Joshua had been stabbed, he still was determined to make it out alive. So he tried escaping through that front door, But Matthew saw him leave and he chased after him. Now, when I described the scene earlier, we didn't go into too much detail, but we know that as Joshua was running out of the house, being chased by Matthew, the others who had gone to McDonald's were just now pulling back up, and they saw everything. Nobody knew the full extent of what had gone on inside the house while they were gone, but nonetheless, they came home to a terrifying scene. It was clear that Joshua was injured. I mean, there was blood coming from so many different parts of his body. It was so, so bloody that it was difficult to tell where he had been stabbed. Then they saw Matthew not only chasing him, but chasing him with a bloody knife still in hand. And then that is when Brendan started chasing after his childhood friend Matthew. The court documents state that Brendan finally caught up with Matthew a few blocks away from the Butler mansion. Now, remember from the psych report, Matthew said that Brendan was one of the good ones. That's why he gave him a knife earlier that night. He was On Matthew's side, according to Matthew. Matthew. Brendan, of course, just didn't realize it in this moment. And in addition to the knife, Matthew also had given him a clove of garlic. So I guess in his own weird, twisted way, he was trying to make sure that his best friend stayed safe through what he thought was the end of the world. Brendan had known Matthew practically his whole life. But in that moment, chasing him through the streets in the dark, this was no longer the friend that he grew up with. This was a man covered in blood, armed, delusional and cornered. And Brendan, well, he was about to find out just how dangerous that made him. I don't know about you, but I like knowing exactly where my money is going. And for the longest time, my wireless bill was one of those things that just felt out of control. Overages here, extra here, you know, you used all your data here. And after years of overpaying for big wireless carriers and having the crazy bills, the random fees, the free perks that aren't actually free, I finally realized that there is a better way. And so about a year ago, I switched over to Mint Mobile. Mint Mobile offers premium wireless plans starting at just $15 a month. You get high speed data and unlimited talk and text on the nation's largest 5G network without the inflated price tag. You can also bring your own phone, keep your number, activate in minutes with an esim. No contracts, no hassle. I've told you about them before. I also had to just get a line here at the office for customer service, for our merch and things like that. And I went with Mint Mobile as well because I personally use them and they're just the best and it takes like no time at all to set up. So instead of overpaying just because, you know that's how it's always been, you can actually switch and start saving immediately like I did. If you like your money, Mint Mobile is for you. Shop plans@mintmobile.com ae that's mintmobile.com ae Upfront payment of $45 for three months. Five gigabyte plan required equivalent to 15amonth. New customer offer for first three months only. Then full price plan options available. Taxes and fee as extra. See Mint Mobile for details. Unfortunately, once Brendan caught up with Matthew, we don't get Matthew's point of view from the psych report. But we do know what happened from the court documents, which it leads me to believe that it was Brendan's recounting of the events. The documents state that by that point, Matthew had the knife Held over his head, the blade pointing downward, almost like he was moments away from attacking Brendan too. But Brendan very courageously then grabbed Matthew's hand slowly, same hand holding the knife. And as calmly as possible, he told him, give me the knife, calm down. And shockingly, Matthew handed him the knife. And that's when Brendan noticed something else. The knife and the gloves that Matthew was wearing were both covered in blood. So I think that that was the moment that it finally hit him. Matthew had stabbed someone, at least Joshua, who had already collapsed on the front lawn by this point. But Matthew wasn't giving up easily. He told Brendan that it was, quote, the night of long knives. And then he took off running again. So Brendan chased after him again, running a few more blocks before catching up to him for the second time. And again Brendan begged him to calm down and to just come back to the house. Which I gotta say, Brendan was obviously doing everything that he could possibly think of to de escalate what was going on. And I know a lot of people in that situation, myself included, would probably have been panicking, but he was so courageous and brave. And you can just tell that he was trying to get Matthew weapon free and back to the house, where then hopefully law enforcement would be and they could intervene. However, it wasn't that simple. Matthew wasn't listening. He wasn't, you know, listening to reason. So Brendan did the only thing that he could think to do. He shoved Matthew up against a parked car, hoping it might stop him or at least slow him down. But instead, Matthew responded to that by wiping his bloody gloves onto Brendan's hand and saying that they were now blood brothers. He said, you need to come with me so we can fight the war together, so we can protect each other. But Brendan obviously was not doing that, and Matthew could see the hesitation. So then he threatened him, telling Brendan that if he got in his way, he would be next. Brendan could then see Matthew's hand reaching toward his pocket, and he was worried that he was about to pull out another knife or maybe even the box cutter that he had brought to the party. So Brendan backed up, ran away and ran back toward the house. And the last thing that he saw was Matthew running in the opposite direction. So those were the events of what happened that night at Butler Mansion. Everything that we can at least piece together from the psych report and from court documents. But despite Matthew's full confession, he and his team pleaded not guilty to the five counts of first degree murder that he was up against. In the weeks following the murders, Matthew was ordered to undergo a 30 day assessment to decide whether or not he would be mentally fit to stand trial. And at the end of the 30 days, on May 22, 2014, the results came back.

Guest/Co-host or Interviewee (55:30)

We received a report from Dr. Smith, who is the attending psychiatrist at the Southern Alberta forensic psychiatry center. Dr. Smith has determined that my client is fit to stand trial.

Annie Elise (55:40)

Now, even though they deemed he was fit to stand trial just a couple of months later, In July of 2014, his lawyers requested that he be given another three day psychiatric evaluation. And right before the 30 days were up, his defense team was back in court requesting an extension. The report was released on September 26, which. That's the psych report that I went over with you earlier, the one that went into his exact feelings and his thoughts leading up to the murders. And the report's findings were that Matthew had likely suffered from a psychotic episode, though the doctor noted that they weren't sure if it was from an underlying illness like schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, or even maybe schizoaffective disorder. But lastly, the report wrote that Matthew was fit to stand trial from a psychiatric perspective. So his defense team had really, really tried their hardest to get him out of going to trial, but it just wasn't happening. He was going to face this. He had to stand trial. Two years after the brutal murders in May of 2016, his trial began. His defense team had made it very clear that they were still going to be arguing the same things that they had been arguing this entire time. They believed that Matthew was not criminally responsible because of his mental illness. Now, aside from Matthew's mental well being, there was also one really big topic of conversation at his trial. The night before the murders, Matthew had been scheduled to work at Safeway from 2pm to 11pm however, by 10pm, Matthew was nowhere to be found. One of his co workers had texted him, not knowing if maybe he was just ditching early that day or if he had quit altogether. And Matthew's response was what many people argue shows that the murders were in fact premeditated because the message read, trust that I never hurt anyone. All will be known. Five. The number five. Now, the number five being sent just hours before he would ultimately murder five people. That's pretty coincidental if it's not premeditated murder. Another big topic of conversation was around Matthew's mental illness. Of course, I mentioned a little bit ago that the psych reports from late 2014 said that they weren't sure what Matthew's underlying mental illness was. However, during his trial, it was said that he was suffering from schizophrenia during the murders. On May 25, 2016, Matthew was found not criminally responsible due to his schizophrenia causing a psychotic episode. This came after two of the three expert witnesses testified that number one, Matthew suffered from some sort of mental disorder, though they couldn't specifically label it as schizophrenia. And number two, he was having a psychotic episode during the murders.

Guest/Co-host or Interviewee (58:25)

He basically said that without doing more extensive testing, he can't be sure exactly what label to put on the mental disorder my client has, but he has, he is very sure that my client does suffer from a mental, sort of a psychotic kind. And when we say psychotic, we mean that's associated with disconnection with reality. The psychiatrist testified he considered the possibility degrude was faking, but he was able to eliminate that possibility. He always approaches these assessments with no preconceived notion he's alive to the possibility of faking or malingering as it's referred to. And at the end of the result, at the end of the assessment, as a result of hearing everything he did and comparing it with all the information he had, he was satisfied that my client was not faking, that there is no malingering taking place here.

Annie Elise (59:12)

Matthew was ordered to be sent to a psychiatric facility where he could be evaluated and continuously treated. But he was also eventually to be given more privileges and even be released under certain conditions, which that might sound pretty scary, understandably, but when I say that there were certain conditions, I mean very specific certain conditions. The board has ordered that Matthew DeGru be moved the Alberta Hospital in Edmonton. There, if his treatment team approves, he will be allowed out into the community as long as he's supervised by a responsible adult. And he could even be placed in a halfway house under 24 hour supervision. Now, every year, DeGroote's victims families must attend annual reviews which are like a progress report on his treatment and risk to reoffend. Understandably, the family members of the victims were heartbroken because nobody ever wants to hear that the person responsible for killing their loved ones could eventually be released and have a sense of freedom that their loved ones never got the chance to experience, let alone see the perpetrator every year for a progress report where they will have to hear about their loved one's killer being one step closer to being free.

Guest/Co-host or Interviewee (60:24)

These five young bright people will only ever smile in our memories. We can only hug them in our dreams. And every moment, grant or bad, will be spent wishing they could share it with us. There will be no peace for us. Our wounds will never fully heal, because every year, our families will have to wonder what will be the fate of the man who destroyed so many lives. These families all have a life sentence now. Our life sentence is to, every year, go to the mental health review board and try to make sure that this dangerous offender never gets out and has a chance to hurt anyone else.

Annie Elise (61:10)

It's now been 10 years since Matthew's trial, But the updates coming in have been just as controversial as they were a decade ago. In 2018, Matthew addressed the families of his victims for the very first time, and he gave them an apology. He said, quote, I have done a terrible wrong. What happened is a horrendous tragedy, and I desperately wish it never happened. I am truly sorry for what I've done. I take full responsibility for my illness. But the families of the victims couldn't help but notice they only got an apology at one of the hearings where he and his defense team were hoping for increased freedoms. So it came off a little bit manipulative. Then. In 2019, Matthew was already seeing privileges that many people don't feel he ever should have gotten. He was still detained, but he was permitted to apply for unsupervised day visits into the city. And the argument for allowing that is that it was, quote, the first step into transitioning him to a supervised group home. Now, plenty of people were mad about it for good reason, too. And there was a lot of back and forth, especially from the victim's family members.

Guest/Co-host or Interviewee (62:18)

The recommendations from the treatment team are showing you the acceleration that's occurring within this process For a guy that killed five people. Their current recommendations, which I hope the review board will slow down a little bit, actually puts him on a faster track to absolute discharge than Vince Lee in Manitoba. He's at least two years ahead of him. If you look at the history of Vince Lee in the news. Vince Lee killed one person. Mr. McLean. Tim McLean. This guy mutilated five people, and he's. They're already talking about putting him into a halfway house where he has unsupervised access to Edmonton. I'm not gonna lie. I feel bad for the people of Edmonton that we've somehow brought the problem to your. Your fine city. The accelerated recommendations are ridiculous to us. We don't agree with them, obviously, and we'll see what the board has to say. But in my opinion, the entire system needs an overhaul, and we're continuing to work on opportunities to discuss with the federal justice department about taking away absolute discharges for mentally ill murderers.

Annie Elise (63:38)

I want them to look at the reason why we are there, not just how well he's doing and how well he's progressed. I want them to consider the reason that we are all here and all in so much pain and trauma, including

Guest/Co-host or Interviewee (63:57)

them, because I think it's very difficult

Annie Elise (63:59)

for them to have to sit and listen to us. Like Craig said, I mean, you know, these five moms and the dads to talk about losing our children and how horrific it is.

Guest/Co-host or Interviewee (64:10)

It is

Annie Elise (64:12)

so painful to have to go back to that same place

Guest/Co-host or Interviewee (64:17)

and then to have people look at you

Annie Elise (64:20)

with no compassion and no caring and tell you, well, we're just so happy that the man that murdered your children is doing so well. What's wrong with you? So with all of the backlash, in 2020, his privileges were revoked. But the following year, in 2021, the privileges were restored again. In 2023, he was moved to a group home with 24 hour supervision. However, in more recent years, Matthew, his parents and his lawyers have been advocating for him to be able to move in with his parents full time. There's been a lot of deliberation regarding his reintegration into society, not just in the public, but in actual courts. But each time Matthew and his legal team draft up a request, it gets denied. So then they try again. It goes back and forth. It's just a cycle. His most recent appeal was in September of 2025. Terry, what is it that DeGroote is asking for? Tara? Matthew DeGrood's lawyer told the Alberta Court of Appeal today that he's not the same man today as he was 11 years ago when this tragedy took place. Now, he currently lives in a group home here in Calgary, but his lease is being terminated at the start of November and he is seeking a conditional discharge to live with his parents permanently and immediately. That appeal was denied. As of now, Matthew still lives in the group home. While his parents continue to advocate for him to eventually come home and be under their supervision and care, they feel like his case has not been treated fairly and that the doctors and the legal professionals won't do what's quote, right simply because of what they think the public will say or how the public will react. However, the doctors and the legal teams say that in their professional opinion, Matthew is not suitable for those kinds of changes. They noted that he has no history of independently taking his medications and that in both 2019 and in 2021, he experienced what they described as, quote, decompensation. Now, I wasn't exactly sure what this meant, but from the research that I've done. It essentially means that his mental illness symptoms have gotten worse or in his case, there were two instances where it was deteriorating back in 2019 and 2021, which that's scary if he's regressing. All the supervision in the world won't help if he has the ability to be free and attack people. Right. And I'm honestly really curious where all of you lie on this. Do you feel like Matthew has gotten too many privileges over the years or do you agree with his parents that if he was found not criminally responsible, then he should be treated like he was not criminally responsible? I don't know. It's a really sticky situation, especially when most people feel like he shouldn't have been found not criminally responsible in the first place and that there was an element of premeditation and that the barbarity, if that's even a word. But like for how barbaric these crimes were, he should have been held response criminally responsible. This case is a pretty rough one through and through. I mean, whether you're referring to the sheer brutality of it or the more out there motivations behind it, or the controversies surrounding it, it's definitely a heated one. That's probably the best way to describe it. So I am curious to know where you land on this. What do you think the right punishment is? What do you think the true motivation was? Was there premeditation? What do you make of it? Let me know in the comment section on YouTube or in the Q A section on Spotify. Now, really quickly before you go, I want to give you one last reminder. Spring Merch has officially landed. Go to annie elise.com Secure your goods. Time is limited, quantities are limited. You're going to want to get those orders in now before it sells out like last time. Again, that is Annie elise.com lots of merch, apparel, safety kits, tumblers, everything you guys love. So go check it out right now. Thank you guys so much for tuning in to another episode of Serial Lessly. I will be back on the mic with you on Thursday, breaking down everything happening this week in True Crime. But until then, be nice. Don't kill people. Don't think that you're killing werewolves and zombies. They don't exist. And just stay safe. Alright, bye. The most sustainable way to love fashion isn't to stop shopping. It's to simply change the way you shop. So change the way you shop with the RealReal. The RealReal is the world's largest, most trusted source for authenticated luxury resale. Every item kept in motion extends the life cycle of luxury and keeps it out of landfills. 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