← Serialously with Annie Elise
Serialously with Annie Elise
427: Patrick Clancy Under Fire, Michigan Family Annihilator, OnlyFans Trial & Alexee Trevizo Update
00:56:15
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- [00:00]
Ryan Reynolds
Hey, it's Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. Now I was looking for fun ways to tell you that Mint's offer of unlimited Premium Wireless for $15 a month is back. So I thought it would be fun if we made $15 bills, but it turns out that's very illegal. So there goes my big idea for the commercial. Give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment
- [00:22]
Amy Colette
of $45 for three months, $90 for six months or $180 or 12 month plan required $15 per month. Equivalent taxes and fees. Extra initial plan term only greater than 50 gigabytes. Me slow when network is busy. See terms.
- [00:32]
Annie Elise
Hey, true crime besties. Welcome back to an all new episode of serial Aslee. Hello, hello, hello. And welcome back to an all new episode of serial as Lee with me, your host, Annie Elise. Happy Thursday. I hope you're having a great week so far. I'm probably about to dump all over it because we have so much to discuss this week, but there are a lot of updates in cases we've discussed. There are brand new cases you've been dming me. There's just so much that we have to talk about. So get ready. I just hope you're mentally there and ready to go through all of this together. As a reminder, if you're a new listener, Mondays I do my deep dives into a single case going down all the rabbit holes, the theories, the court documents, the facts, all of that. And then on Thursdays, it's headline highlights where I break down everything happening this week in true crime just because I know it's difficult to watch all the trials to keep up on all these new cases. So the goal of headline highlights is really just to keep you in the know of everything going on within true crime, you know, in a digestible way. And look, with these episodes, I really prefer when I have a co host and when I'm not doing them solo. It just kind of helps take a little bit of the load off, gives a little bit of levity. Right now I'm just here on my own, as you can see, but.
- [02:12]
Amy Colette
Oh, hold on.
- [02:14]
Annie Elise
Who's that over there? Who's that over there? Is that Amy Colette? I just broke my finger wheeling you over.
- [02:20]
Amy Colette
I felt like I heard that.
- [02:22]
Annie Elise
Ow. That hurt. Are you okay? That hurt. Okay, no more fun intros, guys. I'm. I'm stopping from this point on. All right, welcome to no Surprise, Amy Colette.
- [02:33]
Amy Colette
Thank you for having me.
- [02:33]
Annie Elise
You're welcome. Wheel on over. Bring your stuff on over. No, before we Started recording. I literally shoved her off to the side.
- [02:40]
Amy Colette
I was like, hold on, just scoot
- [02:42]
Annie Elise
your ass on over. All right, let's get centered.
- [02:44]
Amy Colette
Let's get another finger.
- [02:46]
Annie Elise
It's hurting, but luckily it's my left hand, which who uses their left thumb for anything. So I think I'll be okay. Okay. So like I said, we have a lot going on, lots to talk about today. We're going to be talking about everything that's been happening in the Lindsay Clancy trial. More so the backlash this week, particularly that's been coming for her ex husband, Patrick Clancy and how people are now comparing him to Chris Watts. We're also going to talk about the horrific family annihilator case in Michigan. So many of you have been requesting that, trying to figure out, you know, what really is going on here? How did this happen? How are some family members still expressing love toward that man? What's really going on there? We're going to talk about my favorite villain, and I mean that in the most sarcastic way ever. But Alexi Treviso, who we haven't talked about for over a year, I think, at this point, but she is the pregnant teen who disposed of her baby in the hospital trash can and seemingly has been getting a pass for years and has not been facing accountability for this. And once again, now she pits the lottery. I don't even know how, but so much of the evidence against her is now barred from being entered into the courtroom. So we're going to talk about all of that and we're also going to talk about Courtney Clenney, Courtney Taylor. Courtney Clenney Taylor. She goes by so many different names. She is the only fans model who is accused of murdering her boyfriend Christian. And her trial was supposed to begin very shortly here, but in a last minute move, she accepted a plea deal. So, so let's actually start there. And that's going to be the first update today. Within headline highlights is the case of Courtney Clenney. Now, if you don't remember this case, it all started back in 2022, specifically on April 3, 2022. And that's when the police responded to a luxury high rise condo in Miami after Courtney had called 911 in this 911 call, you can hear her screaming, my boyfriend is dying of a stab wound. Please come save him. Not acknowledging at least in that call that she is the one responsible for the stab wound. So her boyfriend, 27 year old Christian Abunsali, had been stabbed in the chest with a kitchen knife. He was rushed to the hospital but unfortunately he later died from his injuries. Now at the time, Courtney was this stunning, beautiful, 26 year old OnlyFans model. Also she was a social media influencer. She was going on all of these different podcasts as guests. She had this, you know, curated beautiful Instagram feed where she's dripping and head to toe designer. They have all these beautiful couple pictures of them like fully in like matching Fendi outfits, trying to portray a life that is aspirational to anybody who's following along. Right. She had about 1.7 million followers on Instagram and it seemed like they have this great life together. They were in love, they had tons of money pouring in, they lived in this beautiful high rise in Miami. But then all of this came to a head and four months after Christian's death, she ended up being arrested at a rehab facility in Hawaii and she was charged with second degree murder. the time too. All of this footage started pouring in. Elevator footage of their arguments, footage of her on the balcony covered in blood immediately after Christian was stabbed. And there was so much media attached to this because it was, I don't know that I would necessarily call classify it as high profile. It was pretty high profile, I guess you could say. But it was definitely one of those cases where because there was so much media, it just garnered a lot of attention. So here's the thing though, with all of that, despite all of the media and in my opinion, the evidence, Courtney has never denied saying that she stabbed Christian, but instead she says that she acted in self defense. And in the very beginning too, it was a single stab wound to his chest, right on his left side below his collarbone. She, I remember in the beginning had said that she threw the knife with such precision, like a professional knife thrower, that it flew in the air and then landed perfectly there and hit the artery that ultimately resulted in him bleeding out. She further again says that it was all in self defense that Christian had pushed her, threw her to the ground during an argument. And. And then according to Courtney, after that happened, she grabbed that kitchen knife, threw it at him from, according to her, 10ft away, and the knife hit him in the chest, which, look, I've never even gone to one of those ax throwing places. And so I don't know what is possible, but I can't imagine that if I took a kitchen knife, regardless the size, and threw it from 10ft away, that I would land with such perfect precision that not only would the tip go in and it would make contact, but it would go in like a few centimeters into the body, maybe.
- [07:41]
Amy Colette
I mean, that would be such a freak thing for that to happen. Exactly like that.
- [07:45]
Annie Elise
I know. And which, you know, maybe it's possible. I don't know much about knives. So apparently, I'm not alone in kind of having my doubts about that version of events, because the prosecutors also had said that the physical evidence just does not make sense with that version of events. They also say that just one day before the stabbing, Courtney had said that she wanted to break up with Christian. She wanted him to move out of their luxury apartment, and they had kind of this tumultuous relationship where, again, she had this very public Persona, only fans. All the things that go with that, they were rocky. They had a lot of arguments, which were documented, and then, of course, came out after all of this happened. And I don't have any doubts that there was some friction and that maybe she was breaking up with him and kicking him out the apartment itself, too. Not. I don't want to compare it to, like, a hoarder's situation, but, like, it was very unkept. It was kind of gross, and. Which doesn't matter, obviously, in, like, the grand scheme of things, but it just kind of illustrates this, like, chaotic situation around both of them. So, anyways, after she was arrested, Courtney pleaded not guilty, and she's been in jail awaiting her trial ever since. If convicted, she was facing a maximum sentence of life in prison. And I think it was 20 years to life in prison. Don't quote me on that, but I'm almost positive, because here's where it looks now like it's all about to change. According to a new Miami Dade court docket, Courtney is scheduled to appear in court on August 10 for a plea hearing. Her attorney has also confirmed that she reached a plea agreement with the prosecutors. However, they are not saying what the terms of that agreement are just yet. So we have to wait and see. What we do know is that both Courtney's family and Christian's family are expected to be in attendance of this hearing. And if the judge accepts the plea, then Courtney is expected to be sentenced that same day. So we obviously have to wait until August 10th to figure out what the details are here and find out exactly what she agreed to plead guilty to and what kind of sentence would then be attached with that agreement. So I certainly will keep you updated next week and let you know what happened. My gut tells me because, again, for some reason in my mind, I'm thinking she was facing 20 to life. I think she will probably take a plea deal of, like, Seven years or in that neighborhood. That's my guess. I don't. That's my guess.
- [10:01]
Amy Colette
I could be wrong. So I'm very confused with the police situation. I know we talked about this last week a little bit. I recognize that if there isn't a whole lot of evidence or there are certain circumstances that make it more favorable to the prosecution to offer a plea just to get the conviction, I understand why that makes sense. But when there's compelling evidence and they feel very strongly about a guilty conviction for 20 to life, why would you ever offer someone, I know you're just speculating seven years, but why offer something that little?
- [10:31]
Annie Elise
So a few different reasons. One, sometimes it's at the behest of the families because you don't want to put them through the trial and the turmoil of going through that whole process. Sometimes even if they have a lot of compelling evidence, they may think, you know, at the end of the day, all it takes is one juror to have a little bit of doubt. So even, like I was just saying, like, hey, I'm not a knife expert, could it have happened maybe if one person was thinking that also there was some stuff in his background that came out that was not favorable to where I think they could potentially as a defense team lean on the self defense a little bit. And those are only allegations at this point, but still you could lean on that a bit. So again, enough to create just that seed of doubt in one person's mind to where if that then is going to exonerate her completely, we'd at least rather have her, you know, serve 7, 10, 15 years, whatever it is.
- [11:21]
Amy Colette
And do the families have to sign off on it?
- [11:23]
Ryan Reynolds
Not always.
- [11:24]
Annie Elise
I mean, look, in Bryan Kohberger's case, half the families didn't want the trial, half of them did.
- [11:28]
Amy Colette
Well, and I mean just the plea in general, because if I was a family member willing to go to trial and take those odds and they're like, sorry, we're offering seven years, I would be.
- [11:36]
Annie Elise
And that happens a lot because another component is sometimes they don't want to waste state resources. They, if they're not confident they're going to get a conviction, they, they don't want to mess up their conviction rate and, you know, and their history of success. And it's so annoying. It is, it is. So we'll see what comes out. I mean, we'll obviously have that update in a couple of days here, so we will probably most likely include it next week. And headline highlights. Now, this next update that I want to share with you before we get into the main stories is the major update in the Alexi Treviso case. And I don't know how much you know about this case, it probably will ring a bell because we did cover it extensively.
- [12:14]
Amy Colette
You know, hate her.
- [12:15]
Annie Elise
Not hate her, loathe her. Disgusting. And her mother, both of them. So this new decision, it could have a huge impact on what happens when this case finally does go to trial. Which I say that with baited breath because, like, at this point, I wouldn't be shocked if it doesn't go to trial. I'm just going to be honest with you because she keeps getting pass after pass after pass. Now, if you need a quick refresher, Alexi Treviso was 19 years old back in 2023 when she went into an emergency room in the hospital in New Mexico complaining of severe back pain, saying her lower back was killing her. She was hunched over. Her mom brought her in. She was a cheerleader. Not that that necessarily matters, but it will become important in a moment here. And complaining of this severe back pain. So hospital staff asked her over and over again, is there any possibility that you could be pregnant? To which she said, absolutely not. I'm not pregnant. There's no way. I'm on my period, as a matter of fact, like, no. Then about two hours later, she snuck off into a hospital bathroom and she secretly gave birth. Then she placed that baby, allegedly inside that hospital trash bag, in the trash can, I should say, and just left it there and then went back to her hospital bed as if nothing happened. Which, if you've ever given birth, I will tell you this right now, the back pains are real. That for me, even with the epidural, both times, that is when I knew I was 10cm and the babies were about to come flying out of me because I was there. You were there. You saw it. Tmi. It feels like you are going to poo. The largest poo you've ever had in your life. No, the pressure in your tailbone, it hurts so bad that even through the epidural, which she didn't obviously have an epidural, even through that, you're like, oh, shit, it's time. And so she was complaining of that back pain. That's why they were asking her, like, could you be pregnant? And then that also signals that, like, you're dilated and you're about to deliver, which she allegedly did. Okay. So 17 minutes later, after she left this baby in the hospital bathroom trash can, the hospital staff found the baby and the baby was no longer alive. Now, Alexi claimed after this discovery that the baby had been stillborn. However, an autopsy later showed that the baby had been born alive and had breathed outside the womb. So by her placing this baby, allegedly, I'm just saying that to protect myself, but we all know what happened, right? By her placing this baby inside that bag and trash can, it essentially suffocated the baby. There was so much body cam footage from this hospital when the police arrived on the scene after the discovery, the interview with the mother, with the mother responding to Alexi while she was still laying in the hospital bed. Very compelling and damning evidence, in my opinion, which I did a full deep dive, actually. Note for Elizabeth. Please let's link this in the show notes the deep dive so that you guys can go listen to that episode and watch that footage. If you watch the video versions of these episodes, such compelling evidence, in my opinion, that, like, the writing was on the wall here of what really went down. And the mom, even with her body language and conversations with Alexi, it seemed as though she was trying not only to protect her, but to make light of it. Like, Alexi, I. I asked you about this. Why didn't you just tell me, like, things like.
- [15:40]
Amy Colette
So did nobody in her life know she was pregnant?
- [15:44]
Annie Elise
No. However, like I said, she was a cheerleader. There are photos that had come out since where she looks very obviously pregnant.
- [15:53]
Amy Colette
I was gonna say, aren't. I mean, you're up close and personal when you're like, cheerleading.
- [15:56]
Annie Elise
Yes. And, you know, we've all heard of the show. Like, I didn't know I was pregnant until I gave birth in the toilet. And again, maybe that happens. I don't know. And I don't want to say anything like, overly ignorant here, but, like, my thought was always more like, you didn't know you were pregnant if you either didn't gain a lot of weight or if you were already maybe overweight and like, you couldn't tell. Alexi was not extremely overweight at all. Even if she wasn't carrying full bump. Your body does go through things to where and you feel the baby moving to where? I can't imagine she didn't know unless, like, her brain went into overdrive to protect her and it was something traumatic. I don't know. My point is, in photos, she did look visibly pregnant. And there was some rumors, I don't ever believe it was fully confirmed that she. That friends had known that she was pregnant. And I'm. And I say rumors because I can't remember if they were confirmed. And I also don't know if I'm getting anything mixed up with Lake and Snelling, so don't quote me on that. But anyways, about four months later, after all of this happened, Alexi was arrested and she was charged with first degree murder. And ever since then, one of the biggest pieces of evidence against her has been what happened immediately after hospital made that discovery. As I said, the body cam footage, which showed her being confronted by the doctor about the baby being found and her confessing to everything but her version, basically her confession that the baby was stillborn, all being recorded on that police officer's body cam. However, that information, that recording is not allowed to be entered in anymore. In a unanimous decision, the New Mexico Supreme Court has ruled that prosecutors can't use any of the statements that Alexei made while she was in her hospital room because technically, those conversations were protected by doctor patient confidentiality. The court also ruled that the surveillance video from inside the hospital and the police body camera footage that was recorded, recorded inside her hospital room, cannot be used as evidence either. According to the court, Alexi was in the middle of a medical emergency when the doctor came into the room with those two armed police officers who were standing in the doorway and then started talking with her about her medical condition. The court said that Alexi was never even given the opportunity to ask the officers or anyone else in the room to leave before those conversations took place. And they further state that she never voluntarily waived her right to doctor patient privilege. So that ruling automatically throws out some of the most important evidence in this case, including the body cam footage where Alexi herself outright confessed and says, quote, I'm sorry, it came out of me, I didn't know what to do. It also included the conversation, like I said, where her mother asked if she had put the baby in the trash bag and Alexi admitted that she had. Now, this doesn't mean that the charges against Alexi have been dismissed. That's not at all what's happening here. She still is facing a first degree murder charge. However, it does mean that the prosecutors now have to figure out a way to try this case without any of that key compelling evidence. So kind of going back to Courtney and all of this, it's going to be interesting to see how this changes the strategy moving forward, whether it affects the overall strength of the case, whether they're now going to say, without that evidence and without that footage, it's not a slam dunk. So we're going to either offer her a deal or we're going to drop the charges to manslaughter because, you know, whatever the circumstances are. It's just so annoying because there's also been a lot of things over the years where she was allowed to go to prom. She wasn't held. Like. And again, it's all in the deep dive, guys. And even more body cam footage was actually in that episode, too, where they show up at her house with body cam footage and you see her mom basically being like, what are you doing here? No, no, you can't do this. So, like, now that this is not included, it worries me.
- [19:50]
Amy Colette
Well, I was. I thought what you were going to say is on top of some of the stuff being removed from being allowed in the case, also, she was going to plead maybe, like, she was in shock or.
- [20:00]
Annie Elise
Yeah. Now, because it's anything the defense can use. Whatever they want.
- [20:03]
Amy Colette
Well, yeah. And so there was no interview after
- [20:07]
Annie Elise
it was in the hospital room.
- [20:08]
Amy Colette
There was never a second interview or time where she admitted to a parent or something after that.
- [20:14]
Annie Elise
Once she had gotten. This is again, in the deep dive, which I know, I heard. I keep saying that. So I apologize. But afterward, when they went to her house to. I can't remember if it was to execute the warrant or to do another interview at that point. The whole family had, like, wised up in a sense to where no information was being shared.
- [20:32]
Amy Colette
Got it.
- [20:32]
Annie Elise
And so it worries me for I
- [20:35]
Amy Colette
would be worried because I could see the argument of nobody in her life knew she was pregnant. She never admitted to being pregnant to anybody. She came in and was having this emergency. She was in shock. She said some things that she's. Whatever. That we're not supposed to be used. And like.
- [20:52]
Annie Elise
I know.
- [20:54]
Amy Colette
Wow.
- [20:54]
Annie Elise
I know.
- [20:55]
Amy Colette
It feels like the people that get away with things in life, like you were saying, maybe there was a prom situation or something that tends to just be like, the theme of their life and that's why they keep doing these things.
- [21:05]
Annie Elise
I mean. Yes. And, like, the amount of people who are now trying to overturn their convictions. And. And it seems to be working. Letitia Stout, Adam Montgomery, Brian Douche, Canoe Coburger. Which we don't know that his is working. The other two. Yes. But, like, it just blows my mind. And it's like, it's all cases involving children who are one of the most vulnerable classes of victims. So it's like, where is their justice?
- [21:29]
Amy Colette
I was thinking Scott Peterson, too, but
- [21:31]
Annie Elise
I mean, I mean, even though he's trying to overturn, it's like he's at least Served decades at this point.
- [21:35]
Amy Colette
Yeah.
- [21:37]
Annie Elise
Well, speaking of getting away with stuff.
- [21:39]
Amy Colette
I know.
- [21:40]
Annie Elise
Hit us with the update.
- [21:41]
Amy Colette
This next one is a pretty big update in the Nancy Guthrie disappearance because for the first time, which is crazy, investigators are publicly releasing the full ransom notes that were sent after she disappeared, which was just over six months ago. So as a reminder, Nancy disappeared from her home in Tucson, Arizona on February 1st of this year. And just days later, remember, there were tons of ransom notes that were being sent to major news outlets demanding bitcoin in exchange for her safe return. And it wasn't just one or two letters, if you remember. It felt like there was a new update every single day. They were detaining people, they were questioning people. And there was just tons of speculation. And a lot of it was centered around these letters and if they were real or valid. And investigators have since said that most of those were not real. But there were two ransom notes in particular that police now believed were in fact real, and they've released them. So the first note was sent the day after Nancy disappeared on February 2, and addressed Nancy's daughter, Savannah, which we know is a very well known news anchor and TV personality, directly claiming that Nancy was alive but being held for ransom. The writer demanded $4 million in Bitcoin, threatened to increase that amount to 6 million if the deadline was missed, and claimed that Nancy would be killed if no payment was made. The note also included a very specific detail mentioning that Nancy's white smartwatch was left on the floor at the foot of her bed and that a white floodlight in the backyard had been destroyed, which I had never heard those two details.
- [23:17]
Annie Elise
I hadn't either. That's interesting because that's something that only the person in the house would know. I still to this day, and I'm interested to see, as you continue sharing, I don't think that she was ever alive.
- [23:29]
Amy Colette
You don't?
- [23:29]
Annie Elise
No. I think that she either was killed in the house that night by accident or shortly after removing her. I don't think there was ever any reality or world in which they would receive the ransom money and return her alive. I truly. I think that that was a Hail Mary. I think it was misdirection. That's why.
- [23:44]
Amy Colette
So you think that they actually killed her and took her, but not that she was accidentally killed in the. No, I think it was accidentally.
- [23:52]
Annie Elise
I think it was accidentally.
- [23:53]
Amy Colette
Okay.
- [23:54]
Annie Elise
I think it was. I think it was.
- [23:55]
Amy Colette
That she never left the house alive.
- [23:57]
Annie Elise
Yes. Or that she died shortly after leaving the house due to health issues. I think that it was a plan that went completely sideways, that they didn't account for her health. Then the ransom was to create misdirection, a hail Mary, like, something to make it look like she hadn't died so that they, like. Because then panic would set it. I just think that it was, like,
- [24:17]
Amy Colette
never what it was just too big of a plan that they couldn't pull off.
- [24:20]
Annie Elise
Right, Exactly. And, hello, even if they're saying this ransom note is real now, they never followed up to actually get the money. Like, when Savannah and all of them said, we'll pay the ransom. We'll give you the money, where's the
- [24:32]
Amy Colette
follow up to collapse?
- [24:34]
Annie Elise
Yeah, exactly.
- [24:34]
Amy Colette
Well, so then there was that second letter on February 6th, and that second note was sent to the Guthrie family with a completely different message. This time, the writer claimed that Nancy had actually died shortly after being abducted, saying that they, quote, never intended to hurt her, believed her death was related to a heart condition, and claimed that she was, quote, buried in nature. Which does speak to a little bit about the speculation we kind of kept hearing coming in where there were, like, rumors of where she may be located or that she was buried and taken somewhere else. But now a lot of people are wondering, of course, why it took so long for investigators to release these notes to the public and why there was even any question about that. The pima county sheriff's department says that they released them because they're specifically looking for someone who might recognize the patterns in the writing, match the style of writing in the wording or certain phrases, and they believe that there's actually enough unique patterns of expression that someone who knows the writer could potentially immediately recognize it.
- [25:37]
Annie Elise
I can see that now.
- [25:39]
Amy Colette
Over the weekend, Savannah made an absolutely heartbreaking post, which I saw that I'm sure you did, too, saying, quote, we are begging for help. We are desperate. We need someone to come forward saying that someone out there knows something, recognizes the writing, or has noticed some sort of strange behavior from someone around them, and had urged them to contact investigators, even if it's anonymously. And according to investigators, they're still working through tens of thousands of leads that may and tips that they have received since Nancy's disappearance over six months ago. But hopefully, having these notes now being released will bring someone else forward and someone might recognize something finally, and they might get some answers. But personally, I'm shocked that it's been this long with no answers. And I agree. I think this master plan was very big. I mean, you're going after a very public figure's Mother. And you're going after it with ransom and bitcoin. And it just feels like a very elevated plan, so.
- [26:41]
Annie Elise
But kind of haphazardly done.
- [26:42]
Amy Colette
Well, no, not executed. Well. So was it a professional? Was it someone close to the family? Like, what do you think?
- [26:48]
Annie Elise
I still think my opinion hasn't changed since, like, week one. I think it's someone connected to the family, whether it's a friend or family member. And I'm not saying it's the brother in law. I know a lot of people think it's the brother in law and the sister. I think it's someone who knows the family, who was looking for a quick payday either through ransom or something else. Or maybe Nancy had cut them off or something like that. The whole plan went sideways. Then they were trying to, like, lay all of these, like, misdirection things to where it would confuse people as they tried to clean up their mess. It's vast desert in the Tucson area. She could be buried anywhere, which is the unfortunate truth of it all. And I think that I have thought that the pleas from Savannah and Savannah's family ever since week three or four call it to me. When I have listened to them, it sounds like they are talking to someone specific.
- [27:39]
Amy Colette
Yes, I agree.
- [27:40]
Annie Elise
It's not like if anybody knows anything, come for it. It's saying, you can still do the right thing. We, like, you don't have to do this. Almost pleading with them of, like, we will forgive you. Just give us back our mother and give us some peace in that. To which, again, just kind of further bolsters my theory in that I think that this is someone connected somehow with all of it. I don't think it's someone who was going after Savannah because of the Epstein coverage. I don't think it was anybody who was like, oh, Savannah, let's get her elderly mother because she's the Today show host or whatever, and, like, we'll get a fuck ton of money. Like, I think there was something more intentional there, but that they did not expect Nancy to pass as soon as she did because of her health issues, which. In that note, what do they say?
- [28:22]
Amy Colette
They said, like, it was a heart condition.
- [28:24]
Annie Elise
Yeah. And that they didn't expect it. Yeah.
- [28:26]
Amy Colette
So I just can't imagine knowing that your mother was taken in such a frightful way and never just being able to give the respectful.
- [28:36]
Annie Elise
It's devastating.
- [28:37]
Amy Colette
It's a nightmare. It's absolutely a living nightmare. I don't know how their whole family is coping with that. I. For. For a moment. And maybe it is someone on the inside, too. But I thought it might have been somebody who, like, I don't know, saw a movie or a TV show and was, like, sensationalized by the idea of this kidnapping ransom. And they might have felt like Savannah was kind of an under the radar, but still, like, prominent figure. And this mother lives in, like, not a gated community. And like, maybe it was just like kind of an easy access. I don't know. But then there are all these complications that they didn't anticipate.
- [29:11]
Annie Elise
I don't know. I mean, the good news is, even though it's been six months and there have not been any formal announcements or leads, I mean, I also kind of think the Pima County Sheriff's Department shit the bed with this case from day one. They're obviously still investigating it behind the scenes. And it's high profile. And sometimes it does take years to make the arrest because you want to make sure you have enough evidence to take it to trial and get the conviction. So, I mean, look at David. That's a perfect example. David Burke, D4VD. It took what, September, October, November, December, January, February, March. Eight months to arrest him. But they knew about him starting in October, or even probably earlier than that, actually. So it's just their collect and Brian Coburger, that was a quicker speed to market type arrest. But they knew about him in November even though the arrest didn't come until end of December. So it's like, I'm sure we will get there. It's just probably taking time.
- [30:03]
Amy Colette
Yeah.
- [30:03]
Annie Elise
Yeah. You guys know that I'm always looking for simple things that actually make me feel better from the inside out. And one thing I've told you about that has become a part of my daily routine is armor Colostrum. I've noticed since taking it, I just feel less weighted down. My gut feels happier overall. I feel like I'm just kind of giving my body a stronger foundation instead of constantly playing catch up. And with how much I travel and stress and, you know, all of those things, any sort of processed food that I'm exposed to, with all of that, it just is easy to start to feel rundown. And what I like is that Armor Colostrum is a bioactive whole food that's packed with over 400 bioactive nutrients that help fortify gut health, support fitness recovery, and strengthen immune health. So it's one of those small habits that really makes me feel like I'm taking better care of myself every single day. You've probably seen it on your TikTok feed. Everybody is. 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But for him, it was like the thought of replacing them was going to be this whole ordeal. It was going to be expensive. So he just kept these, like, trashy glasses. But then I told him about Zenny and he got so excited because it completely changed how he thinks about buying his glasses. Now he found a pair that fits his style, customized the lenses exactly how he wanted them, and the whole process was incredibly easy. Everything is online. They even have a virtual try on so you can see how the frames look before you order. And styles start at just under $30. So honestly, now it kind of feels great that he has multiple pair instead of just treating that one pair he has, like something that he has to use and has to, you know, only replace every few years. So much so that I have pretty good vision. But I still need reading glasses from time to time. So I got a couple pair just so I have some backups. So that scratched up pair has done its job. Upgrade today with Zenni. Go to zenni.com podcast and use code PODCAST15 for 15% off your first order, plus free shipping on all US orders over $65. The styles, though, do sell out, so don't sit on it. That's Z e n n I.com podcast promo code podcast15. All right, so the trial of Lindsay Clancy is officially underway and we are in the middle of week two right now. I promised you guys last week that if you wanted the trial coverage I would do my best to provide it for you. You did say that you wanted it. But I also have to say a lot of you were very, very kind in the comments because I did put a deep dive out last week on my secondary feed, tend to life, breaking down the whole case from start to finish. And a lot of you were very, very kind to say if it's going to stress you out or if it's going to be bad for your mental health, like, don't feel like you need to cover it, even though we want you to. And so I want to say I saw those comments and I greatly appreciate that. Thank you very, very much. It's a tough case and it's tough not only for me to cover because I experienced a small version of what's going on, but it's a tough case for anybody watching it unfold to hear about. It's just devastating all the way around. As a reminder, Lindsay Clancy is on trial for killing her three children inside her Massachusetts home on January 24, 2023. As I said, I did put out a deep dive last week. You can go listen to it now. The uncensored version is here on podcasts, either either Spotify or Apple, and it's on my secondary feed. 10 to life. 10 to life. Or you can also watch the video version on my YouTube channel. So go listen if you're not super familiar or if you're just looking for more of a deep dive into this case and more of like the backstory within the marriage, the family, and the events that transpired that evening in January. Now, from the very beginning, this case has been surrounded by really difficult questions about mental health. Lindsay's defense has argued that she was experiencing a severe episode of postpartum depression and postpartum psychosis at the time of the kids deaths. Prosecutors, however, have charged her with first degree murder, saying that this was planned, it was premeditated, and it was, you know, a cold, calculated murder. Ultimately, though, the jury is going to determine whether the evidence supports those charges. So on day one, the first witness that was called to testify was Patrick Clancy, Lindsay's ex husband, but husband at the time of the children's death and also the children's father. Now, Patrick's testimony really became one of the main focuses of the first week of trial because he talked all about Lindsay's mental health struggles and her postpartum depression, postpartum psychosis. He testified that Lindsay had increasing anxiety after each of their three children were born. But he said that her symptoms got significantly worse in the weeks leading up to January 24th. According to Patrick, in December of 2022, Lindsay told him that she did have ideations of taking her own life, but she said that she didn't have any plans to take her own life, only thoughts about it. He also described conversations that they had about Lindsay's intrusive thoughts. That's what he called them, saying that Lindsay told him that she was having thoughts about hurting the kids, also confiding in him that she had fears that something could happen to them. But he said that she told him she didn't have a plan or didn't plan to or want to harm them. She described these thoughts as, quote, unwanted thoughts, intrusive thoughts, things that she was experiencing, but that she, of course, did not want to experience. Now, coupled with this, Lindsay's defense attorney also really focused in heavily that first week of trial on Lindsay's mental health. He even showed the jury a notebook that Lindsay had been keeping where she tracked her medications and kind of journaled about her moods and her thoughts and what she was thinking. In the notebook, Lindsay wrote about having horrible thoughts and about having these horrible, intrusive thoughts for several days. Then the jury also heard testimony last week about the medications that Lindsay had been prescribed during this period, which, this is something I touched on during the deep dive. But at one point, she was prescribed 12 different medications. And we're not talking light medications. We are talking, like, heavy duty things. Now, obviously, if you're ever taking that many prescription medications, it's going to have some sort of impairment on your mental health, your ability to think clearly, all sorts of things. However, what I thought was interesting is during the cross exam of Patrick, prosecutors brought out a bag of prescription medications and asked him what he knew about Lindsay's medication use, which Patrick testified that he wasn't counting how many pills she was taking from the bottle each time, saying, you know, quote, it is possible that not a lot were taken. And he explained that Lindsay had been taking several of the medications at the time, but again, he didn't know how many, like, what quantity of e. So prosecutors then went through each prescription, talking about exactly how many pills had been prescribed and how many were actually taken, how many were missing from the bottles. And they noted that most of the medications only had a small number of pills taken. You know, call it three to six pills out of 30 inside this bottle. And there was another prescription that hadn't even been used at all, which, this was really interesting because it is strange that the defense was using this whole overly medicated argument, which I agree with wholeheartedly. But like saying these medications would make her be act like a zombie, that she would have these intrusive thoughts. It wouldn't help so much so that Patrick is actually suing the prescribing doctors for over medicating her. But now they're saying, well, actually not many of these pills were even taken. And usually it takes more than three to six pills for a medication to actually work and get in your system and start compounding. So, like, was the medication really a big factor? And look, I'm not saying that's my opinion. I'm just illustrating what the prosecutor, what the prosecution is saying. So the courtroom also had some very difficult moments over the course of last week, one of which was when the prosecutors showed the pajamas that the children were wearing, also showing the exercise bands which the prosecutors allege were used around the children's neck as the method of murder. Patrick testified that he is the one who removed those bands when he found his children inside the home. I know. Then later in the week, jurors also heard from the first responders who were at the scene on the day that everything happened. Several officers and paramedics got very emotional when they were describing what they saw and the moments after arriving at the home. One of the officers, Officer Brian Josephine, testified that when Patrick went downstairs after first responders got to the scene, he heard him scream, she killed the kids. He also described attempting to check one of the kids for signs of life, but said that based on what he saw, he knew that the situation was extremely serious. And the 911 call also was played in court. However, it was not broadcast over the airwaves because they had ruled that that wouldn't be publicized. But you could watch on mute as this call was played. And I've seen the transcript, and it is so awful. But you could see Lindsay just holding her lawyer's hand, crying, distraught. I mean, difficult for anyone to have to listen to, and then for that to hear on the stand the testimony of them trying to save her youngest life and how that was. It's just I get the chills thinking about it. It is such a nightmare. Overall, obviously, the first week of trial was very difficult, and it really set the scene for how the next, next five to seven weeks are going to go. However, this week then started, and we're, you know, more than halfway through right now. And this is the week where I believe the tide has completely turned leading up to the trial beginning. I believe most people were of the mentality Lindsay is Also a victim in this. She was failed by the system, by her doctors, by so many people, failed by her own husband. And I'll talk more about that in a second. And she's clearly suffering postpartum psychosis and she's a victim in all of this. Then last week when the trial started, it was more of. She also was failed by her husband. He was going on trips to New York. He took his kids skiing. When he checked her into treatment, which I get, you know, I argue. I can make an argument for that. Like, you want to maintain, like, a normal life for your children and, like, not let them know how scary a situation might be. But everybody was turning on Patrick last week, basically being like, your shit husband. You weren't there. You weren't supportive for Lindsay. She, again, is the victim in all of this. Now people are really digging their heels in this week against Patrick. And I don't know if you've seen any of this. Yes, I don't know if you've seen any of this, but it has gone so much more aggressive. Saying they're comparing him to Chris Watts. They're saying that he. I know. I can't even believe I'm saying these words. And I just want to tell you guys, I'm going to start by saying this. I do not believe this.
- [41:36]
Amy Colette
Okay. Because I actually want you to finish. Then I have a question for you.
- [41:40]
Annie Elise
So they're comparing him to Chris Watts, saying that all of those trips to New York, because he moved to New York about four or five months after the children died, and that's where he met his now new wife. He has had made those trips before the deaths as well. So people say, oh, there was an ongoing affair, like Chris Watts. He wanted to be with her. He wanted to start a new life. So now they're saying he is the one who killed his children. Oh, my gosh. He didn't get Lindsay help because he was trying to drive her into a psychosis. And that the voice that she says she heard while on the ground and after all this happened was really, because she was in such a delusional state, was really Patrick's voice because he was there at the scene, that he drove her to this, that he took matters into his own hands. And there's also footage now coming through of when he went to CVS that night. People saying he changed his shoes and his sweater, which is on the footage, which to me, they look, I'll be honest, it looks like the exact same shoes. But whatever. People saying he changed his shoes, changed his sweater. They're also citing one of the reasons for this theory is that Lindsay's body temperature had dropped to 82 degrees, but she was only outside for 30 minutes. So they're like, there's no way it would drop that quickly and that low if she was only outside for 30 minutes. This was something that, like, she had been dead or not dead. I'm sorry, she had been injured longer. She had maybe been outside longer. However, I will say I did some looking into this and there are medical experts who have said that when your body suffers severe trauma or broken bones, that severe drop in body temperature, core body temperature can happen very fast. But when I tell you, I first at the beginning of this week saw a few of these theories popping up on TikTok, on Instagram. People like, you know, I think the husband actually did it and he's setting her up for all of this. And like, I, I appreciate that people are standing behind Lindsay in all of this in the sense of like her being a victim in all of this and her not being like this cold hearted killer who, like a Chris Watts. Right? And some people do believe that this was premeditated and that she is a cold hearted killer. So it's like, I appreciate them advocating for her, but I think it is going very far down in a dangerous direction because now they're accusing him of, because he moved on so quickly, because he has a new wife, a new child, because it looks as though there may have been an affair happening before the murders, because he put out a statement right after saying he forgives Lindsay and he wants to get her help, which we all at the time were like, what a nice husband. He's being supportive. He knows that this was not like her. He knows that she was in a psychosis. But I thought it was only a few people who were spinning this theory. I was like, okay, it's like conspiracy theorists or it's people who are just like always going to be. The husband did it, the husband did it. The amount of tens of thousands of people, more than that now probably hundreds of thousands of people that I have seen reposting, resharing, liking, commenting. It's pretty interesting to me that this many people believe that this could actually be the situation.
- [44:39]
Amy Colette
So it's incredible how people's personal experience shaped their opinions, which is no, like, new news there. But if, and I'm not as familiar with the details as you are, if there is truly evidence, and I would mean not just evidence that he took trips before, but trips where he met this Woman. And there were some sort of inappropriate text messaging and showing the motive. And all of those things that are leading people to get to this conclusion are actually verified.
- [45:08]
Annie Elise
Sure.
- [45:09]
Amy Colette
Like, I could understand where that potentially could be a theory, but. And I don't know what you spoke about on your deep dive, but outside of your experience, we have a friend that went through.
- [45:19]
Annie Elise
I shared about that.
- [45:20]
Amy Colette
So firsthand, we saw a husband who is working through this with his wife and their two children. And it is incredibly complicated and heartbreaking, and he felt helpless and was 100% behind her. And fortunately, in this case, the kids were not hurt, but she did take her life. And he did get remarried and has since had another child. And I can say with certainty that I feel he did everything he could in that situation to help her. And was he counting her medications and doing all that? I don't know. I know he was very involved in doing everything, Everything he could, whether that was taking the kids away for a
- [46:10]
Annie Elise
little while so they didn't have to
- [46:11]
Amy Colette
see it, or being with them or trusting that she had it handled. I remember she even publicly going on social media saying, like, I have this, but I've got it handled. I don't have a plan, like, kind of vocalizing the same thing. So I guess from my personal experience with it, which is very small, I could see where the husband was doing everything he could. But again, I don't know how strong that evidence is that supports the other theories.
- [46:38]
Annie Elise
I don't think it is. I'll say this. In my opinion, from what I've seen, it doesn't appear very strong at this time. It's just people wanting to attack him and railroad him, which fair. It's like, whatever your opinions are of how he handled the situation, you're allowed to feel that way. I don't believe that he master manipulated a Chris Watts type situation to eliminate his whole family. Because they also say he tried to kill her and that that's what, like cutting her and then throwing her out the window, but that she survived, as we know, and she's paralyzed from the waist down. And that it's because he wanted to just start fresh and like, plan this whole thing to where then he would make the discovery or whatever.
- [47:13]
Amy Colette
And what is she saying about all this?
- [47:15]
Annie Elise
So she's already signed an admission in court that she did this. This isn't. She allegedly murdered her kids and she's being accused of it. She has said, I did kill them. It's now a question of, is this because this was a mentally medically induced situation or was this, like, cold blooded murder? That's what the trial is for. However, I will say this because she was in a psychosis and because there have been issues coming out of it, too. I'm not a medical professional. Is it possible she thought she did this and doesn't remember and signed an admission? Maybe? I don't think so. I. I really don't think so. But, like, maybe. And maybe she's misremembering things. It's possible. Anything's possible these days. I don't believe so. I think that this is what we all thought it was originally. I don't think it's some grander scheme or master plan. I think people are pissed because he moved on so quickly, appeared to have possibly been cheating. His new wife, by the way, is a legit carbon copy of Lindsay. It looks like a fucking doppelganger. I mean, that happens often, which, like. And so I think that people have a bad taste in their mouth because of all of that, and that now certain things that are looking like he may have changed his shoes or his sweater, they're, like, trying to piece it together and, like, make this more sinister and salacious than what it really is. Like, it's already devastating and heartbreaking enough. We don't need to make it more heartbreaking.
- [48:39]
Amy Colette
Well, when you bring medication into it, it's so complicated because everybody's bodies react to things so differently. And I mean, also experiences of that with friends where it's like they're, you know, they're prescribed something that doesn't work well for them, and it causes them to be a different person in those moments. So I could also only imagine with a cocktail of those, whether she's taken 1, 2, 3, 4. Who knows?
- [49:02]
Annie Elise
It's all going to mix.
- [49:03]
Amy Colette
Yeah.
- [49:04]
Annie Elise
So I don't know. As the trial continues, obviously, jurors are expected to hear more from mental health experts, additional witnesses, both sides, as they continue to argue about Lindsay's state of mind at the time of the deaths. So I will keep you updated as we learn more.
- [49:20]
Amy Colette
Gosh.
- [49:20]
Annie Elise
I know.
- [49:21]
Amy Colette
Well, this next case is equally as incredibly difficult to hear and talk about because this is another one where an entire family was lost in just a matter of hours. And there's still a lot of questions around this one. You've probably all saw a lot of this online. As Annie mentioned, a lot of people have been DMing her about it. So this one took place on July 24, when first responders were called to a neighborhood in West Michigan after someone reported smelling smoke in the area. And at first the firefighters arrived and could not locate an active house fire. But then just a few hours later, they started getting more and more calls about white smoke coming from a specific home in the Grand Haven area. And when crews went back to the neighborhood around 11:45 that morning, they found the house and started working right away to put the fire out from the outside before they eventually entered the home and inside made an absolutely devastating discovery. A family of eight were all found dead and their bodies were throughout all different bedrooms inside of the home. And According to investigators, 47 year old Christopher Carol Kivovich killed his wife Amanda and their six children before taking his own life. The children were identified as 15 year old Keegan, 12 year old Bennett, 11 year old Smith, 11 year old Ella, 11 year old Caroline, and 5 year old Theodore. The four boys were Chris and Mandy's biological children, while the two 11 year old girls had been adopted. The autopsy results later showed that Chris had shot and killed his family, then set multiple fires on the first floor and in the basement of the home before then turning the gun on himself. Investigators said that the evidence suggested Mandy had likely died before the children, as her death certificate lists her date of death as on or after July 23, while the children and Chris are all listed as having died on July 24. So a small silver lining there. But the exact timeline of what happened inside the home is still being pieced together. An investigator said that the exact times of the deaths are still unknown, but the medical examiner believes that each person died either immediately or within seconds of being shot. Police also said that the handgun used in the killings was legally registered to Chris and there were no signs of struggle inside the home and there were no previous law enforcement calls to the residents indicating that there was any history of issues there. And as of now, investigators say that they haven't found any note or anything even explaining what led to this awful tragedy or even really identified a solid motive. Everything, like I said, just seemed to be okay with this family. Chris worked remotely from the family's home as the national vice president of sales and marketing for the American Heart association association, where he supported the organization's CPR and first aid training division. Now, his employment ended in July of this year, shortly before the killings, but there's no information that had been released yet as of why he stopped working there or if this had anything to do with the situation. So interested to hear your thoughts on that.
- [52:34]
Annie Elise
Yeah, that could be a triggering event.
- [52:36]
Amy Colette
Mandy, meanwhile, was remembered as someone who dedicated her life to helping others. She was passionate about special needs and trauma, informed advocacy, mindfulness, reading, traveling, and spending time along the Lake Michigan shoreline. She also worked as a substitute teacher, where she was described as someone who went above and beyond for her students, especially one having difficult days, which, when I read that, it made me really emotional because I'm like, here's this person who is, like, going out of her way for her children, her students, like special needs is like something that's very near and dear to her heart. And it just. It's just heartbreaking. And years before her death, Mandy even wrote a children's book about learning to see the good in yourself called the Magical Mantra. And she dedicated that book to her children. And after these deaths, which this has been a bit controversial, Mandy's father, Gary Anderson, spoke publicly about this unimaginable loss of his daughter and all his grandchildren, but also about his complicated feelings about her husband, Chris. He said, I loved my daughter, Mandy, and I loved those six children in a way, I still love Chris. Gary said he was struggling to understand why this all happened, but is choosing to focus on their lives instead of their last moment saying so you can either choose to dwell on questions that probably will never, in fact, be answered, or you can make a conscious decision to remember them in a very loving way and with all the loving memories I have of each of them, which I found to be very touching. And probably the best you can do in a situation like that for now, absolutely.
- [54:12]
Annie Elise
It's interesting because obviously they're at the time of this recording. There's no motive that has been released, But I would say something about him losing his job in July when all of this happened. I would imagine that was probably a triggering event. Whether he was let go just because they were downsizing, whether there was something that happened. And I'm just like, totally making it up here. But, like, if they caught him doing something or, you know, there's clear, like, maybe there was shame around something, who knows? But, like, for that to coincide so well within the timeline, it seems like that probably.
- [54:44]
Amy Colette
And no prior history.
- [54:45]
Annie Elise
Right. It seems like that probably did play
- [54:47]
Amy Colette
a role, which when I first heard about that, that was what, like, for me was so jarring is I was thinking, okay, I thought exactly what you said. Shame. That's the only reason people. I'm not the only reason, but a main reason why people hide or feel like there's no way out. Because I'm thinking, you lose your job, okay, they're gonna lose their house. They're everything like, okay, I mean, what's the worst that could happen? Like, face that. So to. To take, I know, the lives of your entire family and yourself, there must have been some sort of secret or something. Something.
- [55:20]
Annie Elise
Yeah. I mean, it's all gonna come out. Yeah, it will all come out, but it's devastating. All right, guys, that is what we've got for this week for headline highlights. And this is where, if you're watching the video version of this episode, this is our new set. For the time being, I am rebuilding, reworking our main sets right now. So he welcome to our conference room and our office space behind us. But luckily the audio will at least be good and the video quality will be good. So it's not like. Like the last couple weeks on stream yard, so there's that. But temporary digs for the next few weeks.
- [55:54]
Amy Colette
It's been great being back with you, though.
- [55:56]
Annie Elise
I know it's been great. I like being back. We're so close. All right, guys, thank you so much for tuning in to another episode. I will be back with you on Monday. Don't forget, you can go listen to two deep dives that were already released this week. One on Monday on this feed, the serial asleep feed, and then another one on the second true crime podcast, Feed 10 to Life. And you can also go back and binge and catch up on the Lindsay Clancy deep dive from last week and the Alexi Treviso case, which we will link in the show notes. Until the next one, be nice. Don't kill people. Just get a divorce. Be safe and be safe. Bye.