258: Rich Brothers, Affairs, and a Bloodbath | The Kissel Brothers

Summary

Serialously with Annie Elise
Episode 258: Rich Brothers, Affairs, and a Bloodbath | The Kissel Brothers
Release Date: April 7, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 258 of Serialously with Annie Elise, the host delves deep into the chilling true crime saga of the Kissel Brothers—Andrew and Robert Kissel. This episode unravels a tale of extreme wealth, sibling rivalry, deceit, and ultimately, murder. Through engaging storytelling and incisive analysis, Annie Elise paints a vivid picture of a family torn apart by greed and betrayal, offering listeners a comprehensive understanding of one of the most perplexing cases in true crime history.

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The Kissel Family Background

Upbringing and Sibling Rivalry

Andrew and Robert Kissel grew up in the affluent community of Saddle River, New Jersey, under the stern guidance of their father, a successful businessman who pushed both sons to achieve excellence. This environment fostered intense sibling rivalry, with each brother striving to outdo the other in every possible endeavor.

Annie Elise reflects on their childhood dynamics:

“Andrew and Robert’s whole relationship really was about competition and truly about trying to outdo one another.”
(03:02)

Career Paths and Personal Lives

• Andrew Kissel: The elder brother capitalized on family wealth to venture directly into high-stakes real estate development. His early success was bolstered by nepotism and strong family connections, allowing him to bypass the typical grind of the industry. However, this rapid ascent masked underlying issues of ethics and honesty.

• Robert Kissel: In contrast, Robert pursued a career in investment banking, working with top-tier firms like Merrill Lynch and Goldman Sachs. His role took him globally, leading him and his wife Nancy to settle in Hong Kong, where they enjoyed a life of opulence.

Nancy Kissel, Robert’s wife, was portrayed as a glamorous party enthusiast, sharply contrasting with Haley Kissel, Andrew’s wife, who embodied poise and reserve. Annie Elise notes the intriguing dynamic:

“Haley was basically the complete polar opposite of Nancy.”
(18:24)

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The Disappearance and Murder of Robert Kissel

Robert's Vanishing Act

In November 2003, Robert Kissel abruptly vanished without a trace. His disappearance baffled family and friends, sparking a widespread investigation. Nancy Kissel reported him missing after a heated but seemingly inconsequential argument, maintaining an outward semblance of normalcy despite the profound crisis.

Discovery of the Body

The investigation took a grim turn when authorities discovered Robert's body in their luxurious Hong Kong apartment. Key evidence included:

• Blood-stained Items: Police found clothing and a rolled-up rug embedded with Robert’s remains, exuding a foul odor indicative of the brutality of his death.

  “Nancy could not make heads or tails of it... It started to seem a little bit off.”
  (15:29)

• Cause of Death: Robert was found with a bashed-in skull, conclusively indicating he was bludgeoned to death. The severity of his injuries suggested premeditation and significant force.

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Nancy Kissel's Arrest and Trial

Arrest and Initial Trial

Nancy Kissel was swiftly arrested shortly after Robert’s body was found, primarily due to incriminating evidence within the apartment. The forensic details pointed directly to her involvement:

“Nancy had been sleeping in the same bed as Robert's corpse for days after he was killed.”
(19:58)

Defense and Conviction

Nancy initially pleaded self-defense, alleging years of abuse and portraying Robert as an alcoholic and aggressive individual. Her defense claimed that Robert had attacked her, prompting a desperate act of self-preservation. However, the prosecution countered this narrative with overwhelming evidence of premeditation and financial motives.

Notable Testimony:

“She really thought he was going to kill her, that he had a bad temper... And then he just blanks out.”
(51:14)

Despite a successful appeal citing procedural errors, a retrial reinforced the original verdict. Nancy was ultimately convicted of murder and sentenced to life in prison.

Final Verdict and Aftermath

Nancy’s conviction highlighted the complex interplay of personal vendettas and financial desperation, serving as a stark reminder of how wealth and power can corrupt.

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Andrew Kissel's Fraud and Murder

Andrew's Downfall

While Robert was embroiled in his own tumultuous situation, Andrew Kissel's fraudulent activities came to light. As Treasurer of his building's co-op board in New York, Andrew abused his position to embezzle millions through various schemes, including:

• Skimming HOA Funds: He exploited renovation projects to siphon funds, often under the guise of legitimate expenses.

  “Andrew managed to steal millions, multiple millions, because he basically stole from every single project that he worked on.”
  (26:28)

• Mortgage Fraud: Andrew engaged in elaborate mortgage fraud across multiple states, forging signatures and securing multiple loans on the same properties.

Discovery and Arrest

Andrew's unscrupulous actions eventually caught up with him when inconsistencies in notarized documents were uncovered. A pivotal moment was the realization that he had used the same notary stamp across various jurisdictions, raising red flags among his business associates.

“He dressed well. He knew the right people. They all assumed that they could just trust him.”
(56:06)

Andrew's Murder

In 2006, facing mounting legal troubles and a potential prison sentence, Andrew was found murdered in his Staten Island home. His body bore multiple stab wounds, and he was found tied up, suggesting a personal and deliberate execution rather than a random act of violence.

The Investigation and Culprits

Investigators probed numerous theories, eventually linking his murder to financial motives. Key suspects included:

• Carlos Trujillo: Andrew’s chauffeur, who was acquitted of murder but convicted of attempted murder.

• Leonard and Jair: Cousins linked to cartel activities, who felt threatened by Andrew’s financial deceptions and potential to expose their illicit operations.

Leonard struck a plea deal, acknowledging his role in the conspiracy to murder Andrew, while Jair’s fate remains unclear.

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Aftermath and Reflections

Impact on the Kissel Family

The dual tragedies within the Kissel family not only decimated their wealth but also shattered familial bonds. Robert and Nancy’s children were placed under the custody of their maternal uncle, Leonard, aiming to shield them from the heinous crimes that plagued their lineage.

“The wealth, the success, the insane houses. It didn't protect Andrew and Robert from the super dark realities of greed and betrayal.”
(71:16)

Nancy’s Continued Influence

Even after her incarceration, Nancy maintained an obsessive connection with her former lover, Michael, the electrician with whom she had an affair. Her relentless correspondence underscored possible underlying psychological issues, further complicating the narrative of her character.

Annie Elise’s Reflections

Annie Elise concludes with profound insights into the case, emphasizing the deceptive nature of appearances and the hidden struggles that can reside behind seemingly perfect exteriors.

“This case was wild. But thanks for tuning in with me. I'll be back on the mic with you first thing on Thursday...”
(Annie’s closing remarks)

Her final thoughts serve as a poignant reminder of the complexities of human nature and the often unseen battles individuals face, regardless of their outward success.

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Conclusion

Episode 258 of Serialously with Annie Elise masterfully navigates the intricate and dark narrative of the Kissel Brothers. Through meticulous examination of their lives, crimes, and the ensuing investigations, the episode underscores the fragile veneer of wealth and success. It serves as a compelling exploration of how familial pressures, personal demons, and unchecked ambition can lead to catastrophic outcomes. For true crime enthusiasts and casual listeners alike, this episode offers a gripping and insightful journey into one of the most disturbing family sagas in recent history.

Transcript

[Annie Elise]

Hi, I'm Kristen Bell. Carvana makes car buying easy. Isn't that right hun? Dax.

[Dax Shepard]

Dax, sorry. Did you know about this? 7 day money back guarantee.

[Annie Elise]

A week to evaluate seat comfiness.

[Dax Shepard]

You say a week of terrain tests? Yeah, I can test the brake pad resistance at variable speeds.

[Annie Elise]

Make sure all the kids stuff fits nicely.

[Dax Shepard]

Make sure our stuff fits nicely. Oh the right. Still need to buy the car. Get getting ahead of ourselves here. Buy your car with Carvana today. Back in 2005, real estate developer Andrew Kissel was arrested accused of stealing more than $30 million from his investors.

[Annie Elise]

Kissel scammed banks, investors, neighbors.

[Dax Shepard]

A year later, just days before he was about to plead guilty, Kissel was found brutally murdered.

[Annie Elise]

American expatriate Nancy Ann Kissel was convicted of the murder of her husband, 40 year old investment banker Robert Peter.

[Kristen Bell]

Your kiss.

[Dax Shepard]

There was the question of was she or was she not an abused spouse. We know Nancy and Robert Kissel because.

[Annie Elise]

Of the milkshake murder.

[Dax Shepard]

Two incredibly successful brothers, but suffering the same tragic fate.

[Haley Kissel]

Hey true crime besties. Welcome back to an all new episode of serial.

[Annie Elise]

Foreign. Hey everybody. Welcome back to an all new episode of serial as li with me, your true crime bestie, Annie Elise. Now the case we're talking about today, I don't want to say, I don't want to say that it's a throwback one, but I've never talked about it on this channel, on my podcast, on my YouTube channel. I've never talked about it anywhere. And it's one that I remember when I was first getting into true crime I was really curious about because there are elements of like extreme, extreme wealth, deceit, affairs. I mean siblings fighting, all sorts of stuff. And if I'm remembering correctly, and I think I am, I think there was even a Lifetime movie made about it. I'll have to double check. I'm pretty positive there was. But anyway, it was one that always just like piqued my curiosity because it had all of the elements of just insanity and also kind of like making yourself question like who would ever do this when you literally have the entire world at your fingertips, the means to do anything you want in the world and it's just wild. I feel like some of those are the more fascinating cases even sometimes to me just because there's just such an element of mystery of like what would drive somebody psychologically to do things like this when they seemingly have everything they could possibly ever want in the world.

[Dax Shepard]

He stole money. That was something that he didn't seem able to control.

[Robert Kissel]

Because she won't survive.

[Kristen Bell]

And I called his attorney and I said, we have a problem here.

[Annie Elise]

So I know I was getting a little bit ahead of myself there. I apologize for that. But let me just rewind and take us all back to more of our time, like of our youth, our childhood, our teenage years. Because if you ever grew up with either a sibling, maybe a cousin, or even somebody who was just close in age to you and you were with all the time, you probably know what I'm talking about when I say that sometimes there was an element of a rivalry, right? Not just sibling rivalry, but just even with your peers, where it's who's gonna race to the finish line and get there first. I know with my son and my daughter, it's always, you know, me first, me first this and that. And there's just like, you know, a little bit of healthy competition. And it's kind of natural, especially when you' younger, whether it's your sibling, your best friend, or your cousin or whomever it is, it seems like that's something that everybody goes through a little bit in their childhood. But the common thread in all of it is that it's never, never ending. You know, you grow up, you grow out of it, and you kind of move on from that. Although sometimes when you get older, if you're somebody where those little games don't stop, they could sort of shift a little bit. Where maybe all of a sudden it's not about who can run to the end of the block the fastest or who was the first to call shotgun and sit in the front, but it's more on a larger scale. You know, who's doing better in life, who got into the better college, who has the bigger house, who earns the most money, whose Instagram has the most followers or shows the most picture perfect family. Those kinds of things where you're constantly comparing yourself to that close person in your life. Now, like I said, obviously this isn't how it works for everyone. Not all family or close friend relationships are full of rivalry or any sort of competition. Some people really do just get along with their siblings and their close friends. But so far as Andrew and Robert Kissel were concerned, their whole relationship really was about competition and truly about trying to outdo one another. Now, when they were growing up, Andrew and Robert both spent some time in Saddle River, New Jersey, which that's a high income and very peaceful area, which is only about 25 miles outside of New York City. They also had a younger sister named Jane, and their father, he was A successful businessman. He always pushed the two of them to be as great as could possibly be. You know, great at everything they did. Kind of almost like a Menendez brothers type dynamic, if you get what I'm saying. Like less all the sexual assault allegations, of course, but just really like drove them to be the absolute top tier best they possibly could be. And some might say that he even pushed them a little bit too much. But you know how it is, right? Parents want the best for their kids. And if you are in an extremely high wealth type of situation, sometimes those parents drive and ride their kids a little bit harder, wanting them to not just leech off the successes of their parents, but really make a name for themselves as well. So the point is that in all of that, and whether it was too harsh or not, the father's lessons always stuck with the brothers. They were never okay just saying that they had done something good enough or that it was all right, or they always felt like they could do better, and they always felt like they should have done more too. They always wanted more as well, which I have to say is pretty ironic when you really step back and think about it. Because Robert and Andrew grew up fairly wealthy, as I mentioned, they never really wanted for anything in life. They didn't need any more money to keep living this stable and comfortable life. They already had it. Yet they still felt, for whatever reason, like they didn't have enough. They weren't rich enough, they weren't respected enough. The people who knew them weren't impressed enough. They also felt like they had to be in competition with one another. Sure, Andrew and Robert loved each other, but Andrew always wanted to be better than Robert, and Robert always wanted to be better than Andrew. And this wasn't limited. This was at everything. Now, Andrew was the oldest, and it's safe to assume that he especially felt a lot of pressure to be the best and, you know, to always really succeed and be the top brother. He didn't want his little brother to be showing him up. But the thing is, stuff didn't come as easily for him as it did for Robert. And sometimes it felt like Andrew could work twice as hard and for twice as long just for Robert to then come in and do better than him without even breaking a sweat over it. Robert was just naturally charming too. I mean, he was charismatic, he was smart, he knew how to talk to people. How do you know? What did they say? Like, grease the elbows or like, grease the wheel? I don't know what the expression is. You get what I'm saying, but like, he always knew how to, like, chat people up and get in their good graces and grease the wheels. That's what I mean. Is that what I mean? I don't know. But he was just really good at talking with people. He was good at skiing. He was just charming and smart and really kind of everything that Andrew felt like he lacked.

[Robert Kissel]

Skiing was basically everything for them. And Rob was an amazing skier. It seemed that whatever Rob did, he did it well. They were competitive, who could go faster, who could jump the highest mole goals.

[Annie Elise]

So Andrew, on the other hand, he wasn't as outgoing as Robert, and he didn't have all of his ducks in a row like his little brother did. However, he did have one thing going for him. Like I mentioned before, he was older than Robert and by a couple of years. So this meant that while Robert was still in school, Andrew was able to get a head start in life. He was able to start his own business. And maybe by doing that, he could make his fortune before Robert even had a chance to, you know, get going, get off the ground floor. And he did start a few businesses, in fact, until he found his true calling, which was real estate. Now, right off the bat, he was able to use all of his family's wealth and connections to like, drive right into the deep end of this. He didn't have to work his way up from little sales to big sales. I mean, he started out pretty much right at the top. Right away he was buying and selling these huge buildings all over the East Coast. I mean, call it nepotism, if you will, or just family connections, I don't know. But he definitely wasn't starting with, like, fixer uppers or foreclosures or doing anything like that. He went right out of the gate, strong. And on the surface, it seemed like he was really good at it and really enjoyed it. He was making money hand over fist to all appearances, and just like crushing it. Now, as for Robert, he wound up in investment banking. He also worked for top tier companies like Merrill Lynch, Goldman Sachs. Just kind of a lot of big, heavy players in the space as well. And his job, it took him all over the world, visiting a bunch of different countries. So much so that at one point, he and his wife Nancy, ended up settling down in Hong Kong. And their place in Hong Kong was gorgeous. They lived there with their kids. This place had three pools. It was just like they had a staff. It was just like magnificent. They were living life and every single possible luxury that you could ever imagine. Now, let's Talk about his wife, Nancy. Okay, Nancy was a beautiful blonde bombshell and she really liked to party. She also really enjoyed the finer things in life, obviously. And I gotta say this is kind of ironic, but personality wise, Nancy was a lot like Robert's older brother Andrew. Almost kind of like she was the female version of him. For example, both Andrew and Nancy wanted to be professional artists. However, it didn't really work out for either one of them. So because of that, that's when Andrew got into the real estate development, when he, you know, going off on buying all the high rises and doing his thing. Now for Nancy, professional artistry didn't work out for her either. But instead of harnessing that and going into her own business, she kind of found a new focus, which was living the high life, enjoying her husband's money, just kind of live in all the luxuries that she possibly could. And when I say living the life of luxury, I truly, truly mean it. Her husband Robert was making over $3 million per year in bonuses alone, not even including his salary guys, just in bonuses. So they clearly had a lot of money to spend, to burn, to buy things with. So yeah, with that there really was nothing wrong with Nancy enjoying a little shopping spree every now and then. I mean, they certainly could afford it. And it wasn't just the money. I mean, everyone who knew them, even their closest friends, agreed that Robert and Nancy seemed to have just a fantastic, loving and great marriage. They would spend lots of quality time together, they would go on dates at the golf course, they would go to the health club together. They would, you know, go in these like relaxing Roman baths together and just truly connected as best friends and as husband and wife.

[Robert Kissel]

If you are in park, you don't really have to go out. There is a kindergarten there, there's a big supermarket there, two or three pools and tennis courts.

[Dax Shepard]

It's a little like being in a nice resort.

[Annie Elise]

So everything seemed perfect for them. However, there was one little problem, one tiny little hang up that Nancy and Robert didn't really see eye to eye on. And that was the fact that he traveled a lot, he just was not home very often. And Nancy did not like that. And it wasn't just these business trips that were bothering her. It was also these 16 hour days at the office, these endless meetings, the late nights, you know, all of the things which it does suck to be in a relationship with someone who you hardly ever see. I'm sure, yes, the money is nice and I'm sure you can't bring in that type of money either, if you're not working and hustling and, you know, having all these endless meetings and working long hours. But at a certain point, you're making more than you're ever going to be able to spend anyway, right? So that big paycheck can sort of feel like it's just not worth it anymore. You're losing quality time with your wife, your kids, your family. What are the true priorities?

[Robert Kissel]

In the beginning, it's all very overwhelming, and it's fantastic. And it's a great city. You have a beautiful apartment, and then the husband ends up being away much more than he promised, and you spend many nights alone. She never told me about it. It's an expat community. People talk with each other. And if there are problems in a relationship and people hear of it, it's like wildfire.

[Dax Shepard]

They were very social, they were fun. Everything was always perfect.

[Annie Elise]

Now, even with all of those drawbacks, Nancy still stuck it out. And it sounds to me, which I'm just speculating, but I think it is a safe thing to guess here. But to me, it seems like maybe Nancy realized that with marriage, sometimes you have to take the good with the bad, right? You have to make some sacrifices, and in exchange, you get other things. For her, even though Robert wasn't around as much as she wanted him to be, it was worth putting up with because she got to live the lavish lifestyle. She got to purchase anything and everything she wanted. And overall, the relationship and the dynamic was still pretty good. That is, of course, until 2003 rolled around, because that is when everything changed. In November of that year, Robert did something completely unexpected. He just vanished. This man who usually spent every single minute, every waking hour at the office just suddenly wasn't coming into work. He wasn't calling his family. He just was like a ghost. He wasn't answering his phone. He missed important meetings. He blew off his lunch appointments. I mean, literally, he just vanished. Nancy could not make heads or tails of it. She told her closest friends that, yes, they had had a terrible fight, but she said she didn't really want to dive into all of the details. She wanted to keep that a little bit private, which, to be fair, Nancy had always been pretty private about their marriage. So it wasn't all that surprising that she wanted to keep things vague. But she also didn't think that this fight was something that was so severe that he would just disappear over it. She didn't know what to do. She didn't know if she was overreacting, if he would turn up or what was going on. So she decided not to even tell her kids the full truth of what was happening. In fact, she acted like everything was completely normal. She kept the household running smoothly. She and her staff, her house staff, just kind of went about their usual routines. You know, school, play dates, clubs, sports, the works. And over time, it almost kind of started to become and look like she almost couldn't care less that Robert had gone missing. Or at the very least, I mean, maybe she was just trying to keep up appearances and didn't want her friends knowing how worried she was. But it started to seem a little bit off.

[Robert Kissel]

She said to me, something terrible has happened. It's a family emergency. And I said, is there anything I can do? She said, no, don't come over. But she sounded distraught. She sounded very upset.

[Annie Elise]

So Robert was off doing whatever he was doing, wherever he was, and Nancy was coping. And one of her favorite ways to deal with stress, which was no surprise to pretty much anyone, it was shopping. So Nancy, like she always did, grabbed her credit cards, grabbed her purse, and she hit the stores. Now, I will say that after Robert had been gone for a few days, thankfully, Nancy did go to the police in Hong Kong. She ended up reporting him as missing because she knew that after a few days, something just was not quite right here. So right away, the police launched an investigation. They looked at Andrew's life, his business, his friends. I mean, anyone who might have a reason to either threaten him or hurt him. And they also were really thinking about whether or not someone had kidnapped or killed Andrew, but also about whether he may have not just disappeared voluntarily. Maybe he was having an affair, maybe he made a bad investment and he was running away from that. I mean, the possibilities felt endless, which also meant that the list of suspects was endless. If he did not disappear voluntarily, it really could have been anybody involved. However, one person that they definitely did not suspect was his brother, Andrew. I mean, sure, yes, they did have their tensions over the years, all of that sibling rivalry that I had mentioned before. But first of all, Andrew, he lived half a world away in the United States. He was nowhere near Hong Kong. Plus, he was also having some issues of his own, some issues that kept him way too busy to worry about keeping up with Robert. See, Andrew had always been sort of interested in taking shortcuts, you know, the kind. You know, the get rich quick kind of schemes. And basically, if there was ever a situation where it seemed like he could make an easy buck, Andrew was all in. But even though Andrew was, you know, all money, Money, money, all the time. He had another side to him, too, a family side. He had a wife named Haley and two children with her. Now, let's talk about Haley, because she was also very accomplished. She fit in so well with this whole, you know, Kissel family who were all about pushing yourself, being the best, doing the best. So much so that she had actually been an Olympic level skier at one point. She also spent some time working as a stock analyst before she got married. Haley was just super smart and came from the same world that the Kissel brothers came from, a world full of old family money. And remember earlier how I said that Nancy, Robert's wife, was a lot like Andrew? Well, Haley was basically the complete polar opposite of Nancy. She was very poised, very reserved, very quiet. And whenever she was out in public, people would just kind of take notice of her true elegance, her demeanor. She wasn't ever flashy or showy like Nancy was. She didn't spend a lot of money. She just was very. What's the word? You know, proper and old money, but classy and nice. And it's funny how the brothers, you know, total personality opposites, sort of ended up marrying the female versions of each other. Right? I mean, it's kind of interesting. It's almost like they did, like, wife swap or something. And you know what? Now that I really do think about it, there was a Lifetime movie about this case, about these brothers. And, you know who played Andrew? John Stamos, Uncle Jesse. I totally remember it now, although I don't remember the name. What have you done?

[Dax Shepard]

I've made us money, Haley.

[Kristen Bell]

Money.

[Annie Elise]

That's it.

[Dax Shepard]

Yes. And to make money, you have to gamble.

[Annie Elise]

And to gamble, you have to take risks. And risks require nerves and guts. But you wouldn't know anything about that, Hayley, because you have no guts.

[Kristen Bell]

Family, Andrew. These are your children.

[Annie Elise]

So back in 2002, you know, one year before Robert had completely just vanished, Andrew and Haley had owned a beautiful unit in one of the best buildings in New York. And they totally loved living there. This was like glitz, glamour. It had every single fixture and furnishing you could imagine. I mean, this place was just luxurious. It was top tier. And after being there for a while, they decided that they loved it so much that owning just one unit, it wasn't enough for them. So they went ahead and they bought two more units in the same building. Then they knocked it all down, and they combined all three of them into this, like, one super size, beautiful, gigantic home. They absolutely loved it. Not only the finishes, the Furnishings, all of that, but again, just the building itself. So as time went on, Andrew even became more involved in the building's operations. At one point he was even elected treasurer of the co op board, which, let's be honest, it kind of seemed like a really great fit. I mean, this guy knew money. He had worked with the top firms out there, like I mentioned, Merrill lynch, you know, investment banking, all of the things. So everybody had figured that if he had gotten himself that rich that he would also surely be able to handle all of the business finances. Right. I mean, it was a no brainer. However, when Andrew got into this position, something just sort of shifted. He didn't just see it as a responsibility, he also saw it as an opportunity. See, being the treasure meant that he now had control over how the HOA fees from the residents were being spent. You know, when you pay into an hoa, if you're in a community, it goes to lawn maintenance, gate upkeep, whatever it may be. Paint, possibly. So now that he was the treasurer, he was able to really make those decisions. What are all of these HOA payments going toward? And I don't know the exact payment for his building, but I will say the hoas in New York are insane. And every, it varies area to area, right? State to state. But let me just kind of level set for a minute. So I think right now in California, where I live, I think my HOA is, I want to say maybe like 200amonth. Okay, maybe 300 and that. No, I think it's 200 or maybe it's two and some change. I don't know. It's something between two and three. I don't know the exact number. But anyway, that goes towards like the things I just mentioned, you know, upkeep this and that, all the little things that go into an hoa. However, when I lived in New York, I wasn't paying an HOA because I didn't own in New York because it feels like impossible to own there. It's so expensive. However, the building I was renting in, I just got curious one day and I was like, what would it cost to buy one of these units? First of all, the apartment I was living in, it was going to cost me like $2 million to buy it, which. Hi, hello. Couldn't afford that. But then I looked at the HOA fees. The HOA on top of the mortgage was $1700 a month. This was also back in 2019. I looked recently and it was like $2700 a month. So that's money, which that's like a rent payment or a mortgage payment on its own, right? So like there is a lot of money in New York just going into these HOAs. And because you think about it too, unless you're living upstate or living in a brownstone, it's pretty much buildings that people live in, these really nice apartments, but buildings. So there is so much money just getting funneled through the hoa. And the reason I wanted to bring all of that up is to just kind of remind you as I'm talking about this, how much opportunity that was because now Andrew was controlling all of the HOA that comes in every single month, all those fees, and not only that, but he was also responsible for how it's going to be distributed, where it's going to go, what they're going to use that money for. So it's a lot of money and it's a lot of responsibility. Even though that was a long winded explanation, you get what I mean? So now he had a lot of freedom in how he managed things, what contractors he would hire, what he would pay for. And with power comes great responsibility. Right? And this is where things started getting a little bit shady.

[Haley Kissel]

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[Annie Elise]

Basically done for you.

[Haley Kissel]

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[Annie Elise]

It's like all the quality that you.

[Haley Kissel]

Would expect, but none of the chopping, none of the dishes, the work, the thought, all of it. You just heat it up and you eat it. So whether you're into quick meals, minimal cleanup, or just not having to think about what's for dinner, HelloFresh kinda covers it all. That's why it's named America's number one meal kit. So get up to 10 free meals and a free high protein item for [e-mail] One item per box with active subscription free meals applied as a discount on first box. New subscribers only. Varies by plan. That's up to 10 free HelloFresh meals. Just go to hellofresh.com ae10fm. That's hellofresh.com AE10FM. All right. If you've ever flipped over the label on your kids vitamins and realized that they're basically just like candy that has a multivitamin label slapped on it, you are not alone. Because some of them, after I did some research, have up to two teaspoons of sugar, which is so wild to think about when you think that you're giving your kid that every single day.

[Annie Elise]

Right? That's a lot of sugar.

[Haley Kissel]

So that's why I was really excited to try Haya for the first time a few months back. It's a chewable vitamin that is made just for kids, but without the sugar, without the gummy junk. Yet somehow it still tastes really good. Even picky eaters don't put up a fight, which, which honestly shocked me. And yes, you know, I'm nosy. You know, I like to do things and like, do my research and due diligence. So I did taste one just because.

[Annie Elise]

I wanted to see what I was giving my kids.

[Haley Kissel]

And it's kind of like citrusy, but really mild. It's not chalky at all like I expected. Plus, the kids get this adorable reusable bottle with their first order. It comes with stickers so they can decorate it however they want. And my kids loved that. They took it very seriously. It was almost like a competition. Emmy's was pink. It had Barbie stickers all over. And she, like, loves it. So we've worked out a special deal with HIA for their best selling children's vitamin. Receive 50% off your first order. But to claim this deal, you must go to hiahealth.comae this deal is not available on their regular website. So go to h I-Y-A h e a l t h.com ae and get your kids the full body nourishment that they need to grow into healthy adults. Hihealth.comae.

[Annie Elise]

So from the sound of things, Andrew had a lot of control as treasurer over how everything went down and nobody really paid attention to what he was doing. They trusted him. They thought that he would make the right decisions. You know, why wouldn't he? He built incredible wealth on his own. Surely he knows how to Manage money. So because nobody was paying close attention, it became really easy for him to order some work that needed to be done in the building and then skim a little bit off the top for himself. For example, at one point, the building needed to have its lobby and hallways renovated. And Andrew was the one who was collecting all the quotes for different parts of the renovations. You know, looking at the different contractors, deciding who to hire, all of those different elements that go into it. And after he got all of that information together, he said that the total renovation would cost about $1 million. A pretty hefty price tag for like a hallway and a lobby. Right? But here's the thing. Once the work was finished, the people who lived in that building were not at all impressed. They had a certain idea in their minds of, you know, what a $1 million renovation would look like, what a $1 million hallway would look like. I mean, it should be like floor to ceiling marble, true, 14 karat gold inside of it, right? I mean, that is so expensive. And what everybody was looking at kind of just frankly looked cheap. So they were all wondering how in the hell this renovation could have possibly cost as much as Andrew said that it did. Yet still, they trusted him. I mean, after all, he also lived in the building just like them. He certainly didn't want to live in some crappy, cheap looking building. Plus, he was their neighbor, maybe even their friend, so why would he ever lie to them? So nobody questioned it and he got away with it. And that hallway and lobby project was just one scam that he ran, one of the many. I mean, Andrew was doing this over and over again with all kinds of different work projects in the building. And get this, over the course of his time as the co op board treasurer, Andrew managed to steal millions, multiple millions, because he basically stole from every single project that he worked on. There wasn't a single renovation or a single repair that he handled in an honest way. He always skimmed money off the top. Now, what's so crazy to me in all of that, and maybe it's just an illustration of how much wealth is in New York, but how does somebody manage to skim multiple millions of dollars without anybody even noticing? That is so insane to me. I mean, that's like a life I want to be living to where I can't even notice that money is missing. Like, can you imagine? Can you imagine? Which, that's what, like, honestly kills me about these cases that we talk about, because it's like you literally had everything in the world you could possibly want And I say that loosely. Everybody has issues, right? Money doesn't buy happiness. But, like, that's a lot of money. I think that could buy a lot of happiness for somebody. So to throw it all away, it's just. I never will understand it now. What I will say is that eventually, even though it took a while, the board did notice that there was some money missing. And they did end up tracking everything back to Andrew. And when they did, he kind of just fessed up. But he also begged them to not go to the police. He said, you know, I'm sorry. I have a family. You can't do this to me. We're friends. I'm so sorry. I promise I'll pay it back. I was just, like, stuck in a bind. It'll never happen again. And because he was begging and pulling the friend card and acting so sorry and remorseful, it's pretty wild. But it worked. The board actually agreed not to press charges against Andrew. They agreed to just let him off the hook as long as he eventually paid the money back. So that's what he did.

[Dax Shepard]

He stole money. That was something that he didn't seem able to control. He wanted a bigger car. He wanted a bigger boat. He wanted to be out in front. He was the worst thing that ever happened to his investors and to people that trusted him with money.

[Annie Elise]

So I know that that was a lot about Andrew, and we were talking about Robert's vanishing act. But I do think it's important to cover all of the background just so that you can get true context as to who we're talking about. And it shows you what Andrew was truly up to. He wasn't exactly an honest or ethical person, but he also had never done anything violent. So that takes us back full circle as to why he was not a suspect in his brother Robert's disappearance. And even more than that, when his younger brother Robert went missing, the assumption was that Andrew was just too busy with his own financial problems to have anything to do with the disappearance. So instead, the police started their investigation at the last place that Robert had been, his apartment. And right away, they noticed that something was off. There was this strange, almost sour smell that was super, super intense. But as they kept looking through the apartment, nothing particularly alarming jumped out at them, at least not right away. But it's helpful to keep in mind that the search actually did take a really long time, which, honestly, probably shouldn't be that surprising, because I talked about how luxurious this apartment complex was, right? I mean, it was massive. On top of all of the other glamorous features that were within it, there was also a ton of extra storage, you know, a ton of room, including an extra storage area somewhere else entirely in the building. So of course, because of that, the police wanted to search that area too. And they wanted to see what they could find, if anything inside of it. Well, as it turns out, right away they saw boxes of things that looked like they could have belonged to Robert, almost things like clothing. However, they had blood all over them. And remember the smell that those officers had noticed inside their apartment? Well, there was that same odor in this new area. The only difference was it was 10 times worse in this area. The place just reeked. So finally, after the police sorted through the stuff in the blood stained boxes, they noticed that there was a rolled up rug, like a rolled up carpet style rug in the back corner. And I'm sure a lot of people's minds are going to a worst case kind of direction right now. We know this is not a good sign. If you've got a bad odor, a rolled up rug, pretty safe bet that there's a body inside of it, right? And sure enough, when the cops pulled that carpet out and unrolled it, Robert's body was stuffed inside. And not only that, it looked like he had been dead for days. Even more, his skull was completely bashed in. Which, let's just be real, that would have taken some effort because Robert was a pretty big guy. So whoever had done this to him, it had to be somebody who was incredibly strong. It was also very clear that this was intentional. He didn't say, you know, trip and fall and hit his head badly, and then somebody tried to cover it up because it was an accident. In fact, even before the police were able to order an autopsy, they could just tell by looking at his head injuries that he had been bludgeoned to death. But the question of course, in all of this was who would have done this? Who would want Robert dead? One early theory was that Robert got wrapped up in some sort of bad deal at some point. I mean, the business decisions that he was making were all for like millions and millions of dollars. So it was all very high risk, high reward, that kind of situation. So if, say, Robert somewhere along the way, maybe pissed off the wrong person or lost too much money and somebody was angry about that, could they have decided to take matters into their own hands? I mean, it wouldn't be the first time where we've heard a story where business matters became personal very, very quickly. Another similar theory was that maybe Robert had gotten mixed up in the wrong crowd because again, he was dealing with huge amounts of money, I mean, millions of dollars. So when you're making these power moves, it's not hard or difficult to get wrapped up in different shady groups or even possibly organized crime groups. He did have ties back to New York and Jersey as well. So was there some sort of connection there? So the next theory that went was kind of like, you know, even if Robert hadn't lost anybody's money and he did everything exactly right, he might have just been involved with the wrong sort of people. And because of that, it could have just put a target on his back. So basically, there were a ton of possibilities. It really was endless. And this next part might be pretty shocking to hear, but just two hours after his body was found, at 2:41am on November 7, 2003, the police arrested his wife, Nancy for his murder. And if you're wondering, okay, how did the police manage to solve this case so quickly after, you know, a whole whopping 120 minutes when they had no idea how he had vanished, who was responsible, anything that was really, you know, included in a true investigation, well, it's because Nancy, his wife, did a really piss poor job covering her tracks. I mean, clearly she had absolutely no idea what she was doing when it came to getting away with murder, which, you know, it. I love to see it. I love to see when this happens. Now, remember that weird smell that I mentioned inside the apartment, not even the storage area, but inside the actual unit? Well, it turns out that Nancy had been sleeping in the same bed as Robert's corpse for days after he was killed. Literally right there in bed with his body sleeping next to him. And remember that shopping trip that she went on to, you know, cope with him disappearing and him missing? Because shopping was how she always dealt with her stress. Well, she wasn't just out buying new outfits or new jewelry. This shopping trip was very specific because one of the things that she purchased was a rug. She also picked up some cleaning supplies and all of the things that she would need to really clean up after her husband's murder. Then she went home, she told all of her house staff, her maids, her housekeepers, everybody. Nobody is allowed to set foot in my bedroom under any circumstance. In fact, the entire time that Robert was missing, nobody was allowed in that bedroom. And as it turns out, it's because she had a lot of cleaning up to do. See, the police believed that Nancy had actually smashed Robert's skull in with this really heavy metal sculpture. Something from their own home, Something they had collected, Something that was probably sitting right there out on their mantel. Now, you also might be thinking, okay, well, Annie, you said that he was bludgeoned so bad that it had to be somebody incredibly strong, somebody with a lot of force behind it. And it's not like Nancy was like some bodybuilder or super buff, right? Well, apparently she was able to take her time and not worry too much about him fighting back or getting away from her. And that's because, according to the investigators, Nancy had drugged Robert on the night that she killed him. More specifically, she made Robert a milkshake, acting like she was this kind, caring wife doing something sweet for her husband. All the while, though he didn't even realize that she had put sedatives inside of it. And here's where it gets even more messed up, if you can believe it. Nancy didn't serve Robert this, you know, drugged milkshake all by herself. In fact, she had her six year old daughter deliver it to him, knowing he would never turn down something that his 6 year old daughter gave to him. I mean, obviously he wouldn't want his own little girl to feel bad. So here she comes in saying, daddy, daddy, I made you a milkshake. This is for you. Of course he's going to be like, oh my gosh, thank you, sweetie. And whether he drinks the whole thing or a couple sips, he would never sustain expect anything weird about that. But that was all part of Nancy's plan. She wanted to elicit this, you know, whatever it would be, this innocent type move on her daughter and prey on her daughter's innocence, in my opinion, to deliver this milkshake that would put him incapacitated to where then she could, you know, execute her sinister plan. And in fact, Robert's neighbor Andrew, not to be confused with his brother Andrew, was actually over at their apartment when this all went down. His daughter had been playing with Robert's daughter and he actually drank some of that milkshake too. And he later said that he felt a little bit weird and a little bit groggy for the rest of the night. He even said that his wife could tell that something was off with him. Almost like he was, you know, mentally in another world and could barely interact with her, which, think about that. If he only had a couple of sips and that's how he was acting and what his wife noticed, then how was Robert doing? How out of it was he? I guess it didn't really matter, though, how he was doing because not Long after he completely just passed out, Nancy bashed Robert's head in, literally bashed his brains in with this heavy metal sculpture. And when everything was done, the entire bedroom was completely drenched in blood. It was on everything. So much so that she needed to buy new bedding, she needed to scrub the walls, she needed to scrub the floors. It was, by definition, a bloodbath. And apparently there was so much stuff in the room that was also covered in blood that she had to, like, replace things, buy new things. She had to even order packing boxes from a moving company to move things around, trying to, like, cover up and conceal this crime scene. But you think about that and then the fact that she crawled into the bed with him for days after this. Talk about unhinged and diabolical, right? I mean, that is horrific. So eventually, Nancy allegedly rolled Robert's body up into that rug, and then she called some maintenance men from the complex that they lived at to help her move it. She literally had the men come inside their apartment and unknowingly help her cover up the murder. Now, I do have to wonder if any of these guys noticed that there was anything off about this, right? I mean, maybe they smelled the cleaning supplies. Maybe when they picked the rug up, they felt the weight of it. I mean, wouldn't you feel. I guess not if it's like. If it's rolled with multiple layers, but, like, wouldn't you feel like, the shoulders, the feet, something like that? I don't know. Maybe I would have to imagine that a carpet feels different with a corpse inside of it than if it's just rolled up on its own. But I don't know. What do I know? But also, if you just murdered somebody and then you roll their body into a rug, are you really okay with just taking that risk and having other people move it for you? That seems really bold to me, like a huge, huge risk. What if the body falls out? What if they smell it? What if they can tell that the shape of it is off? I mean, that is. I mean, I guess she had no choice, though, right? She's not strong. So what else are you gonna do in that situation? However, despite who did or did not notice what was going on, apparently one of the maids did notice that the carpet seemed unusually bulky, like it wasn't just rolled up fabric. However, when they inquired about it, Nancy just told them that it was stuffed with pillows and blankets. So once Nancy had Robert's body taken care of, her next step was to find a way to cover her tracks. And I don't know what her long term goal was here, if she had any idea of how to dispose of this body permanently or what. But it also sounds like she was already starting to prepare a defense for this, trying to make it sound like the killing was justified because at one point while Robert was still missing, Nancy went to go see a family doctor. And when she did, she claimed that her husband had assaulted her. According to her, he had been drinking at home and he had kicked and grabbed her. She was crying the entire time. And she also did actually have bruises to show the doctor. They wrote in their documents that the bruises were on her shoulder, her hand, and that she was visibly upset and in pain. Now, before I move on, I do want to just be clear about one thing here. There is a lot of controversy around this next part because some people believe that Nancy was being sincere and she was being truthful when she went to that doctor and disclosed what had happened, that she really was being hurt by Robert and that she killed him because it was the only way that she could get away from him. And many people think it's the real motive and why she really murdered her husband, Robert.

[Haley Kissel]

Today's episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Which let me just say this, guys, let's be honest. Therapy can feel like a really big step, also a big investment. But when you think about how much we prioritize our physical health, you know, through gym memberships, meal plans, supplements, it makes sense to invest just as much in our mental well being too. And what I love about BetterHelp is that it makes therapy feel accessible. Traditional in person therapy can cost anywhere from a hundred dollars to even $250 per session. But BetterHelp offers a more affordable alternative. You pay a flat fee for weekly sessions, which can end up saving you up to 50%. That's huge. And it fits into your life without needing to rearrange your entire schedule or the commute time there and back. I mean, it just makes it so easy. With over 30,000 therapists available, BetterHelp has helped over 5 million people worldwide. Whether you're dealing with something specific, like anxiety or just feeling overwhelmed by life in general, therapy can help you build real coping tools, set boundaries, and just feel more like yourself again. Your well being is worth it. Visit betterhelp.com ae to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp. H-E-L-P.com ae.

[Annie Elise]

So one of the other possible modes, motives that came out in all of this and what many people suggest is the real motive Is that a year before Robert's murder. So back in 2002, there was a pretty serious pandemic in Asia. It was the SARS outbreak. And you might remember hearing about it on the news if you're old enough. But things were apparently bad enough that Nancy just did not feel safe staying in Hong Kong. So because of that, she took the kids with her back to the States for a few months. They all stayed in Vermont in this beautiful home that Robert had bought for the family. Which must be nice, right? To be able to buy an entire house just for a visit, just for vacation, because there's an outbreak. But Nancy had really big plans for this house, and she eventually wanted to live in this house full time. So because of that, she wanted to make it nice. She wanted to do renovations. She wanted to get it up to her standards. She wanted to just make it her home. So as she was getting all of the potential renovations in order, she hired an electrician named Michael Del Priore. Michael was going to come and do some work around the house. And Michael very much wasn't the sort of person who Nancy usually spent a lot of time around. I mean, he wasn't rich. He didn't live the high life. He didn't usually rub elbows with that kind of crowd. In fact, he lived in a trailer. And he had a super laid back attitude. So he was, night and day different from Robert, who you'll remember was this wealthy workaholic. Well, for whatever reason, there was an immediate spark between the two of them. Nancy enjoyed Michael's company. She liked being around him. And when she found out that he had a daughter, she even offered to set up a playdate with her own kids. So things first started with more of a business relationship with Michael doing work for Nancy. Then they became friends. But then in a real opposites attract kind of situation, they started having an affair. A tale as old as time, Right? So Nancy was basically having her cake and eating it, too. Sneaking around with Michael right under Robert's nose. And no less in a house that her husband Robert had purchased for her. And apparently, Nancy wasn't very good at covering her tracks, not only with murder, but also with having an affair. I'm not exactly sure what she did or what she said that tipped her husband off, but eventually, Robert started to get suspicious. So much so that he hired a private investigator to start following Nancy around. So of course, this investigator figured out what was going on, and then he took that news back to Robert. According to the PI, Robert had every intention of divorcing Nancy over this. However, before he could let her know what he knew or let her know that a divorce was coming, he felt like he needed to get all his ducks in a row. So he talked to a whole bunch of different super powerful lawyers, basically got her blacklisted from all the biggest, most powerful legal firms, and he got to work putting together his exit strategy. Now, apparently it's a norm in the legal field in Hong Kong that if you consult with someone about a divorce once, even if they don't hire you, you're not allowed to work with the other spouse. And I've also heard that. I don't know if it's statewide. Correct me if you know the answer. I've heard of that taking place here in the States as well, that if you hire someone, say even as a retainer or for a dollar or whatever it is to consult with them about a divorce, even if you don't hire them, your spouse cannot hire them. That it's some sort of conflict of interest type thing. So Robert went out and booked all of these consultations specifically to make sure that Nancy wouldn't be able to get one of the top tier lawyers when he was ready to pull the trigger and serve her with the divorce papers. Which I gotta say, is kind of an asshole move, but it's also kind of a genius move if you're wanting to protect your money and your assets and from your cheating spouse or your cheating wife. I understand going to all of the, like, top lawyers and basically saying, well, I'm gonna pull all these resources away from you. Better luck next time, pal. Find someone new. It sucks, but it also is pretty smart. I don't know. So to summarize, Robert was all poised to end the marriage and to make sure that Nancy did not receive a single thing, or if not, nothing, at the very least, she would not do well in the divorce court. He wanted to make sure that she wouldn't be able to get good representation. I mean, she cheated on him, he had the proof. So she was probably going to end up with not a lot. But what Robert didn't realize during all of this was that Nancy was also making plans. Nancy wasn't satisfied to just divorce Robert, to leave him and then go live and ride off into the sunset with Michael in the trailer park. She wasn't about to give up the life of luxury. But from what I can tell, she also had no idea about what Robert was even up to. She had no idea that he found out or that he was planning to divorce her. Yet she Was already thinking two steps ahead, being like, I want to leave him, but I don't want to leave my financial situation. And that's the motive that everybody believes was the true motive in all of this, that she wanted to be with Michael, yet she wanted to keep all of Robert's money. And that's why some people believe that she killed him over it. Some even suggested that those bruises and those marks on her body when she went to the doctor were at the hands not of herself, but of her boyfriend Michael. All to make it look like she really was battered and had been abused. So it took almost two years for Nancy to go to trial for Robert's murder. It happened in 2005, and it was headline news all over Asia, particularly in Hong Kong, where the murder had happened. And looking back, it was basically like their version of the Idaho murders or even the Chris Watts case, right to what that is in the United States. I mean, every single new development, it was in the papers, it was on the news, it was wherever you could see it. Not really social media at the time, but you get it. Any outlet that could talk about it was talking about it. And it was all that anybody in the public was talking about, too. Now, by the time the trial started, Nancy had completely changed her look. She was now dressing super modest. She dyed her hair to be darker. She was wearing glasses. It felt very much like a page from the Jodi Arias case. And I don't remember thinking back to it now, who came first, Nancy or Jody? But remember, Jody did this too. She dyed her hair dark. She. She put on the glasses. She started speaking in like a very quiet, meek type way. So maybe Nancy wanted to be less recognizable. Maybe she wanted to look like a humble wife instead of the type who was a party woman, wealthy, wearing designer labels and having blonde bombshell hair. Who really knows? But whatever the reason was, she definitely looked different.

[Nancy Kissel]

Nancy Kissel was always dressed in black. A typical widow look, as it were. I think it really hit home with a lot of the people in Hong Kong. It was a glimpse of a world that they, they're not used to.

[Annie Elise]

Now, even though she pleaded not guilty, when her cross examination started, Nancy admitted point blank that she had killed her husband. At first it was shocking, but it also made sense because she was claiming self defense, which fit with that visit that she had made to the doctor about Robert allegedly hitting her. And according to Nancy's testimony, Robert was this alcoholic, this rage fueled drug addict, and he had abused her for years, including sexually assaulting her. But she painted him in a very negative light.

[Nancy Kissel]

She really thought he was going to kill her, that he had a bad temper. There was a huge argument. He came at her with a baseball bat. There was a struggle. He turns her around, and it's at this point that she just swings back, and he kind of sits back and looks at the blood and says, you bitch. And then at that point, charges at her with a baseball bat. I'm going to kill you. I'm going to kill you. And she said. Then she just blanks out.

[Robert Kissel]

She blanks out.

[Nancy Kissel]

She can't remember.

[Annie Elise]

Nancy also testified, which, I gotta say, kind of threw me for a loop with this. But she also testified that the night of the murder wasn't the first time that she had ever tried to drug Robert either. Apparently when they were in Vermont, at one point, she had also put sedatives in his whiskey. According to her, she wasn't trying to kill him back then when she did that, but she was worried about the way that he was acting around the children. She says he was aggressive. And Nancy claimed that by drugging him, it really was the only way and the only thing she could think of to get him to just, like, chill out and behave better. She also said that she did the same thing at one point while they were living in Hong Kong. But then after that, she ended up dumping out the bottle and never even thought about it again. Except, of course, you know, for the night that she ended up, you know, murdering him. But even with that story, and honestly, quite a bunch of people who were on her side and believed her, it only took the jury eight hours to reach their decision. Nancy was guilty, and her sentence was life in prison. But this was far from over. Now, after Robert's murder, and with Nancy now in prison for the rest of her life, their kids needed a place to live, right? So after the trial ended in 2005, Robert's brother Andrew and his wife Haley took all of these kids in with no questions asked. I mean, obviously, they would do anything for their nieces and nephews. And it also probably didn't hurt that they were going to be inheriting Robert's entire estate, which, by the way, was worth $18 million. Now, in theory, you would think that Andrew and Haley wouldn't care at all about his brother's money. Money, even with Andrew's history of scamming, he wouldn't want to steal from his own brother and his own brother's children. Right? Especially after Robert was brutally murdered. Right? Well, as it turns out, the money that Andrew had Taken from his building's co op. It was just the tip of the iceberg. The whole time that he had been doing his supposed real estate work, you, know, supposedly making tons of money with these brilliant business deals, he was actually ripping people off. He filed multiple mortgages and remortgages on huge properties, Forging signatures saying that his loans were paid off when they definitely weren't. And then he just shuffled the money around to fund his next scam. One of Andrew's scams included going to multiple banks and getting mortgages on the same property at all of them. So each bank thought that they were the only one giving him the money, but actually, he was collecting a bunch of different loans all at once. And while that's super illegal, it was a lot easier to pull off in the mid-2000s than it would be today. Back then, banks didn't have the same fraud alert systems that they do now. And honestly, it sounds like they weren't really looking too hard either, because they wanted his business so badly, they just kind of made it work. But the crazy thing is, Andrew kept doing this over and over and making, or I guess I should say stealing, millions of dollars in the process. He did this so many times and on such massive properties, so much so that this money was really starting to stack up. And he was able to get away with all of it because he basically dressed well. He knew the right people. Remember, he knew how to, like, grease the elbows and talk to people and be super charming. So they all assumed that they could just trust him. But eventually he got caught because he got sloppy. Actually, he was kind of always sloppy. It just took a while for somebody to finally take notice. But it turns out that Andrew was using the same notary signature stamp on the paperwork for every single one of these mortgage deals. And it said that the notary was a notary in Connecticut. So at first, no one really noticed because, you know, using the same notary, Isn't that weird if you're doing all of your deals in the same area? But Andrew wasn't. He was operating in a bunch of different states, Some of which were nowhere near Connecticut. And eventually, some of his business partners started to wonder why he would go all the way to Connecticut just to notarize their documents when he could take care of it with somebody who was local. And it was actually a real estate lawyer who noticed something fishy for the very first time. She was going through some of his paperwork, just kind of like rifling through, when she noticed the same notary stamp just Popping up again and again. So because of that, she decided to dig a little bit deeper. And as it turned out, Andrew had never gone to a notary at all, not even this fake Connecticut one. It turns out he had stolen the stamp from the actual notary, and then he had been using it to make all of these fake documents look legit.

[Kristen Bell]

Because the first transaction was unusual in that a mortgage showed up at the last minute that shouldn't have been there. When the second transaction came up, and initially there was no mortgage on the record, then there was a mortgage. We ultimately obtained copies of all of the releases in the two chains of title on these properties. And notice that there were the same notary used for multiple banks, which is impossible.

[Annie Elise]

Sure.

[Dax Shepard]

Had you ever seen anything like this before in your experience?

[Kristen Bell]

Never. Never. Not in this extent.

[Dax Shepard]

What was the first thing you did when you realized that something was wrong?

[Kristen Bell]

Well, I contacted his attorney, and I said, there's a problem here. I had called one of the banks that supposedly had released the mortgage, and they said, oh, the mortgage is alive and well, and the balance is $5 million and change. And I called his attorney, and I said, we have a problem here. We cannot go ahead and fund this loan. It was going to be a new loan of six or seven million dollars. And he communicated then with Mr. Kissel, who ultimately said to him, well, just pay it off, because there was going to be enough money from this closing. And I said, no, we're not going to pay it off. The closing is adjourned.

[Annie Elise]

So it's probably no surprise that By March of 2006, Andrew and his wife were behind on rent, and it was now looking more and more likely like they were going to lose their home entirely. Hailey and Andrew's marriage wasn't doing very great by that point either. And it was looking like Haley wanted out. She had sort of gotten sick of all of Andrew's lying and scheming. And because of that, this was a huge blow to Andrew. His mental health was taking a pretty big beating. It seemed like he was sort of broken, beaten down, and almost like the walls were finally closing in on him. Him. And remember that whole mortgage fraud scheme? It was so bad that the FBI got involved with it, and they had all of the evidence that they needed to prove exactly what he was doing. So he was officially charged with $25 million worth of fraud in three different states. There was no escape. There was no getting away from these consequences this time. So Andrew accepted a plea deal that would have him serve eight to 10 years in prison, however, he never made it to court to formally offer the plea because just a few days before he was supposed to show up on April 3rd, Andrew was found dead inside his own home. He had been stabbed to death, and he was left behind in a pool of his own blood.

[Haley Kissel]

Okay, so let me just say this up front. I did not expect a mattress to make this big of a difference in my life. But I have talked to you about Helix before I started my Helix journey.

[Annie Elise]

When was it?

[Haley Kissel]

Gosh, I think it was like 2021, maybe 2022. But our Helix has totally changed sleeping for me. It's just like a moon cloud. It's even changed sleeping for my mom. You may have remembered me telling you my mom slept over one night to watch the kids. She loved the mattress we got her Helix. She loves it. My sister was just over for Valentine's Day with the kids. She loved it, too.

[Annie Elise]

So, like, it's something that is, like.

[Haley Kissel]

A staple now in our house. Before we got our Helix, I was kind of dealing with everything. I mean, the sweating in the middle of the night, tossing and turning. I'd wake up sore on my hips because it wasn't the right amount of, like, firmness or softness. And don't even get me started on, like, the motion transfer. If Jeremiah so much is rolled over, it would feel. I'm not even kidding.

[Annie Elise]

He's going to hate me for this.

[Haley Kissel]

Like a mini earthquake.

[Annie Elise]

But I just never.

[Haley Kissel]

I was tossing and turning all the time. So I took the Helix sleep quiz and matched me with the Helix Sunset Luxe. And it's made for me. I swear it feels like it was just created for my body. And now don't wake up sweaty anymore. I don't feel every single little move that Jeremiah makes. I am well rested.

[Annie Elise]

It's like my moon cloud.

[Haley Kissel]

Even my sleep scores have gone up. And look, I've always been a morning person. I like waking up, getting out of bed, getting my day started. Now all I want to do is lay in my comfy moon cloud, watch Desperate Housewives and not leave my bed. I just want to rot all day.

[Annie Elise]

So I know I can't do that.

[Haley Kissel]

But I'm telling you, that is how comfortable it is. We've now had our Helix, like I.

[Annie Elise]

Said, for quite a few years.

[Haley Kissel]

And it's one of those upgrades that.

[Annie Elise]

You don't even realize that you need until you have it.

[Haley Kissel]

It's now a staple in our house.

[Annie Elise]

It is a must have.

[Haley Kissel]

So if you're waking up sore, tired, or just not feeling Rested. I cannot recommend it. Enough sleep really is everything.

[Annie Elise]

And Helix finally got it right.

[Haley Kissel]

So go to helixsleep.comseriallessly for 20% off site wide. That's helixsleep.com serial for 20% off sitewide helixsleep.comseriAllessly.

[Annie Elise]

So Andrew was now found inside his home, stabbed to death. His body was found by some movers that he and his wife Hayley had hired. They were supposed to move out of their home that day and be out for good. And the movers were supposed to pack up the last few things that were still inside. But instead they found Andrew in his basement, tied up with zip ties and duct tape and of course, stabbed multiple times. The scene was insanely messy and just violent, which made it seem very personal. It was clear that this wasn't some sort of random break in gone wrong. But who would want him dead? Well, there are a couple of theories. The first was that Andrew might have taken his own life and then staged it to look like a murder. I mean, he was definitely not in a good place emotionally or mentally when he died. Definitely not. He was about to go to prison. And on top of that, he had spent his entire adult life trying to seem like a success, like he was super accomplished, and now he was completely exposed as a fraud. So maybe that left him feeling like he had no good options except to die. Except, of course, it's pretty hard to stab yourself to death multiple times. At a certain point, you would be hurt enough or you would hit, you know, the wrong artery enough that you would have lost enough blood that you wouldn't be able to keep driving the knife in. I mean, unless you're Ellen Greenberg and people think that she did that, which that's a whole. If you haven't heard that case, I'll link it in the show notes. But people actually believe it's a suicide, which is insane to me. But. But what I mean by that is if you're stabbing yourself multiple times at one point, you're going to be too weak to continue or you're going to hit something that's going to paralyze you or create massive blood loss. Something so that, not to mention the fact that his hands were zip tied together, literally. I mean, it would have been absolutely almost impossible for Andrew to kill himself this specific way. Not unless, of course, he had help. So another thought and another theory was that Andrew might have taken out a hit on himself, had other people do it, but he was still the one responsible for the plan of it all, because again, maybe he didn't want to go to prison. Maybe he didn't want to face the music. Maybe he didn't see any other way out except for death. But also most likely because he didn't want his children to know that he had died at his own hands. So people think he arranged his murder basically all for his family's peace of mind. Some people also suggested that it could have been almost like an Aaron Hernandez type situation, where he wanted to. And this is all alleged with Aaron, but where Andrew might have wanted to stage it as a murder rather than him being the one who planned it so that the financial element would be protected, so that his family would get the life insurance policy, that they would still be financially taken care of. So it seemed to make sense. And the cops entertained that theory for a while, but ultimately, they just felt like it wasn't right. It sounded way too elaborate. And frankly, even if that theory was true and Andrew had gotten himself murdered, that is still a crime. It's not like you get a get out of jail free card for somebody murdering you. If you hire someone to kill you, like, it just doesn't make sense. So either way, whatever the motive was, this case, it still needed to be solved. Especially because with all of the people that Andrew had ripped off over the years, the suspect list, it was very long.

[Robert Kissel]

I look at this case, Nancy, the kissel of death, where did it come from? Anywhere.

[Dax Shepard]

The mob.

[Annie Elise]

I thought, that's bad.

[Robert Kissel]

I know, but I had to say it. But the mob, the hookers, the dopers, everyone he swindled, his neighbors, his friends, his business associates, strangers in business, you know, everybody who did not want to raise or who did not want to kill him, raise your hand. Everyone wanted to kill him that he knew. You know, everyone's a suspect. Nobody's a suspect, Nancy. Everyone's a suspect. And everyone's a suspect that knows this guy.

[Annie Elise]

The investigation went on for years, but in 2008, the police finally zeroed in on a suspect in Andrew's murder. It began with a routine search. Since the investigators didn't have any real leads to go off of, they were kind of just like, looking at his friends, his family members, his employees, everything, everyone. And at one point, they searched the home of his chauffeur. His chauffeur's name was Carlos Trujillo. Now, this search was about a year after the murder, so around 2007. And when they searched, the investigators didn't find anything very interesting or notable. I mean, at least nothing that stuck out as notable at first. They did however, find a credit card that was not in Carlos's name. It was for somebody else. Their name was Aminta Trujillo. Now, at first, this didn't really set off any red flags. I mean, this Aminta person, whoever she was, had the same last name as Carlos. So maybe it was a family member, a spouse, who really knows. I mean, a little weird for him to have a credit card for somebody else. Yes, but maybe they loaned it to him, left it behind. Maybe it fell out of their wallet. Who knows? Whatever the story may be, not a huge red flag. So the police basically wrote up their report saying that they hadn't found anything interesting. But they also did mention Aminta's name in their report saying that the credit card was found at Carlos's house and they didn't know who she was. Seemed like no big deal, except then more weeks and months went by, and still they didn't have any breaks in the case. They still had no idea who murdered Andrew. And with literally no other leads to go off of, the police decided to start following up on some of the more out there theories, the long shot theories. And this ended up being a good idea because Amita was, which, let me just get this right, she was Carlos's cousin's half sister. Carlos's cousin was named Leonard, and Leonard was Amta's half brother. So anyway, the police brought Amita in for questioning, and right off the bat, she was very nervous. She definitely seemed like she had something to hide. She didn't know what the interrogation was about yet, and the investigators hadn't said a word to her about Andrew's murder. But it was obvious that she was nervous and she felt like she needed to get something off of her chest. So the investigators asked Aminta if she knew why they wanted to talk to her. And at first she was sort of like, well, it's because we're involved with the cartels, right? Which, no, that's not right. So eventually the police let her know that they wanted to know who had killed Andrew. And it was almost like this huge weight was just lifted off her shoulder. She seemed way more relaxed, way more comfortable. And she told the police very kind of casually and calmly, like, oh, yeah, of course my half brother Leonard had killed Andrew along with Carlos and another of Carlos's cousin, Jair, which was a bizarre revelation in and of itself, because whatever this family was apparently doing with the cartels, it was serious enough and violent enough that in Amta's mind, one single murder was like small time. Like, oh, yeah, let me Just tell you, Let me just get it off my chest. And she was nervous about something completely unrelated. It's almost as though she thought she was getting off easy by admitting to this, like, one smaller, more minor crime, which I can only imagine what had her so nervous at the start of that interrogation in comparison, and I don't want to go near that. So, as it turned out, this family had all been pretty heavily involved with Andrew's scams and all of his, you know, scheming and pyramid scheme, whatever it was, they had been laundering his money for him. And when the authorities started investigating Andrew and then when he struck his deal, that made Carlos and the other people who were involved feel really nervous, like he was going to flip on them and share some names. More specifically, they were afraid that not only would Andrew name them, but name them as collaborators, and then they would all get arrested as well. So rather than risk going to jail for financial crimes, they decided to commit a much more serious crime, and they decided to murder Andrew. Carlos was charged with both murder and attempted murder, but he was acquitted of the murder charge. Apparently, the jury just did not think there was enough hard evidence to prove that Carlos was the one who did it. But the attempted murder charge, it didn't go so smoothly. The jury was deadlocked, unable to reach a decision, so the judge had to declare a mistrial on that count. In the end, Carlos decided to take a deal. He pleaded guilty to the attempted murder charge, and he was sentenced to six years in prison, minus time served. Once he served his time, he was deported back to his home country in Colombia. Now, as for the cousin, Leonard, he took a plea deal. He admitted to manslaughter and conspiracy to commit murder. He also agreed to testify against Carlos. So for all of that, he was sentenced to 20 years in prison. It's not entirely clear to me what happened with the other cousin. I've done a lot of research, and I don't see any sign that he was ever taken to court or convicted of anything. So I don't know if that means that the police ended up deciding that maybe they didn't have a strong enough case against him, or if maybe there was some other factor at play there. I don't know. But either way, now you have these two brothers who had always competed against each other their whole lives, but who really arguably had everything at their fingertips. But now they were both murdered by people who they knew and people who they trusted. Now, going back to Robert and his wife, Nancy, she is still in prison, but she has certainly Tried to file every appeal that she can think of. Her lawyers argued that her trial was unfair because according to them, there were issues with how the evidence was handled and the jury didn't get the full picture. And in 2010, after five years in prison, Nancy managed to actually get her conviction overturned on an appeal. The court ruled that there had been procedural errors in her original trial, and that gave her a chance at a retrial in 2011. During the retrial, the arguments were basically the same. Nancy and her lawyers still said that she had killed Robert in self defense, and the prosecution still said that she was just greedy, that she wanted to get out of this marriage while still getting her hands on Robert's money. And once again, the jury found Nancy guilty of murder. So she was sentenced to life in prison for a second time. And here's what her mom and her stepdad had to say after the sentencing.

[Kristen Bell]

Make sure that Nan gets medical, physical, and psychological help from professionals, because she.

[Robert Kissel]

Won'T survive if she doesn't.

[Dax Shepard]

Shocked at the outcome. Can't conceive of the mindset of the jurors that could listen to that evidence for 10 weeks and come away with that belief. Just can't even comprehend that. But all in all, I think it was a fair trial.

[Annie Elise]

Now get this. Apparently, for years after the murder, Nancy stayed in touch with Michael, the electrician, the handyman, the man that she had this affair with. Every single day she would write to him. And these letters were multiple pages long, sometimes five full pages of just like love letters to him, which I can't imagine what was going on in prison that was worth writing five pages over. But she did it every single day. Eventually, Michael started seeing somebody new, though, and then he got married. But that didn't stop these letters from coming through. It was almost like Nancy was obsessive and also, if I'm being honest, kind of a little out of touch with reality. I've done quite a bit of research, and I haven't seen anything about her being diagnosed with any kind of mental health condition. But between what went on with her and Michael and the comment that her mother made in that interview about needing mental health treatment, I do wonder if through all of this, maybe Nancy was dealing with some type of issues around, you know, delusion or some other problem. I don't know. Maybe I'm also reading too much into a few details. I don't know. It's hard to say. Whatever was going on with Nancy, though, it is wild to think about murder striking the same family twice. For completely unrelated reasons. I mean, what an absolute tragedy. Now, the good news is, is that from what I can tell in my research, Robert's kids are okay. Apparently, the one surviving sibling, Jane, got custody of them after Andrew's murder. And ever since then, they have been living what I hope is a very quiet, safe, and happy life, you know, away from all of this trauma and all of this violence. The Kissel family's murder story is a brutal reminder that you never know what is happening behind closed doors, even in what can seem to be the most perfect lives. It's all Instagram, filter social media these days, right? So you never know what truly is happening. And more than that, you never know what's real. You don't know if somebody has it made. You don't know if they're super happy in their marriage. You don't know what struggles somebody is facing. So even though it can be really easy for us to compare our lives to other people, whether it's a family member, a friend, or a stranger on the Internet, this is just a reminder that you don't really know the full picture. And chances are, in a lot of the situations, you are probably way better off than a lot of the people that you're idolizing. So just take what you see with a grain of salt. The wealth, the success, the insane houses. It didn't protect Andrew and Robert from the super dark realities of greed and betrayal. It doesn't really protect anybody ever. Right? So, I don't know. Food for thought, guys. That's me on my soapbox for my little outro there. Just. Just don't compare yourself to other people because you never really know what the reality is. All right, guys, thank you so much for tuning in to another episode with me. I'm gonna go watch that Lifetime movie because I know I've already seen it, but I want to watch it again now. I just want to watch it back. And who's the actress that's in it? Who is it? I. You know, I think I'm probably wrong, but I want to say it's the girl from Bridesmaids. Why can't I think of her name? The brunette one. What's her name? And brides, you know, the one who's, like, super prim and proper and. Who? Oh, I can't think of her name. I think that's her. I think I'm wrong, actually. No, I think it's the girl from the Craft, now that I think about it.

[Haley Kissel]

Way off.

[Annie Elise]

Anyway, I'm gonna go watch that. Let me know if you guys have seen that too. This case was wild. But thanks for tuning in with me. I'll be back on the mic with you first thing on Thursday with headline highlights where we are breaking down everything happening this week in True crime. Don't miss it. And then I'll be back with you for the deep dive Monday. All right, guys, thanks for tuning in. Until the next one, just get a divorce, be nice, don't kill people, don't join any cults and just be a good human. Alright? Alright, bye, guys.