← Serialously with Annie Elise
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- [00:00]
Annie Elise
This episode of Serial Less Ly is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are all things that people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Because Progressive offers discounts for paying in full, owning a home and more. Plus, you can count on their great customer service to help you when you need it. So your dollar goes a long way. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save on car insurance, Progressive Casualty Insurance company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations.
- [00:36]
Sherry Papini
The mother of two disappeared while jogging in 2016. Please, Sherry, I need you to listen to me. She was found 22 days later by a trucker wandering on the side of the road, bruised, chained up and distraught. Federal authorities charged Sherry Papini with lying about being kidnapped. It's not an abduction. You passed the palm of death at the screen. No, there's no way it's changed. There's no way.
- [01:01]
Producer
Change.
- [01:01]
Sherry Papini
There's no way. Just the sheer number of people that were impacted by his conduct, including the officers who took time away from other victims to investigate, was enough to make the sentence serious. Sherry Pepini speaking. Nearly a decade since her name, face and story hit headlines. I was abducted and I was tortured. And the FBI said I made it all up.
- [01:28]
Interviewer
Hey, true crime besties. Welcome back to an all new episode of Serial Asleep. Did you consent to getting in the car with James that day? Did you consent to any of the branding? Did you consent to any of the physical abuse? Did you consent to being away for three weeks? Did you craft the story with James for your return home?
- [02:12]
Co-host
Hello, Hello, Hello. Welcome back to an all new episode of Serial Lessly with me, your host, Annie Elise. We are here. And you know what we do on Mondays, right? We talk all things true crime in a deep dive kind of way. And look, today's episode was not on my bingo card. I did not expect to be having this episode or this interview, but here we are. Now, let me just kind of give you the backstory as to how we ended up here today. So you may have heard a few weeks ago, if you're a loyal listener, which I know most of you are, but we did an episode a few weeks ago on Sherry Papini. I'm sure you guys know who Sherry Papini is. It was the abduction back in 2016. She was from Northern California.
- [02:51]
Sherry Papini
She.
- [02:51]
Co-host
She was abducted and taken to Orange County, California, where she was allegedly held in captivity for three weeks.
- [02:57]
Interviewer
There.
- [02:57]
Co-host
She was branded. She was physically hurt. She was Sexually hurt. And it was just horrific. She ended up after three weeks being let go and returned home to her husband and her two kids around Thanksgiving. And the whole world was just watching everything unfold and was so happy that she made it out alive. Come to find out, she signs a plea agreement about lying to a federal agent where it was all a hoax, where she participated in this willingly. She was having an emotional affair. She went down to Orange county to be with her ex boyfriend, the person she had been having this emotional affair with, and lied about the whole thing. Well, now as bringing us to the episode. A couple weeks ago, a new docu series was released with Sheri herself speaking out, in which she doubled down and said, no, it was not a hoax. I was abducted. My ex, boyfriend, boyfriend that I was with down in Orange county was the one who abducted me. All of the torment and all of the abuse that was inflicted during those three weeks was him and him alone. I did not consent to any of it. It was his doing, the branding, all of it. So that's what that new docu series was about. Her basically sharing that this did in fact happen. It was not a hoax. So we did an episode where we dissected that docu series a little bit. We talked about the inconsistencies, what didn't really add up. I shared my very honest opinions about what I believe to be true. And about two days after that episode was released, Sherry Papini's team reached out and they asked if I would like to interview her. Now, at first there weren't any questions that I had. I felt like my opinion was, you know, open shut. I thought that the docu series was not very truthful. I thought that it felt a bit performative, that it was a little bit of a manipulation tactic, possibly to regain custody or to push her book sales so that she could pay off her restitution, which she currently still owes about 300 grand. But then I started thinking, I do have some questions, like if this wasn't real, did you give consent when you went in the car? If not, how did he lure you into the car? What was that drive like for six hours from the Bay Area down to Orange County? If you didn't give consent for that, were you restrained in the car? Did he drug you in the car? What was that driver like? I just had a lot of follow up questions. So I decided, okay, let's do it. I will interview Sheri. And so we had been coordinating back and forth for a few days and she is now coming today in Studio. We are going to sit down, we are going to talk about everything. I have my tablet with a laundry list of questions that I have, and I'm sure some of them are going to be very uncomfortable. But you know me, I'm your true crime bestie. I've got to ask the hard questions, and I have a lot of hard questions to ask. So we are going to be joined in just a couple of minutes by Sherry Papini where she is going to answer the questions, share some more information, and we'll get to the bottom of this. And I'm curious to know after you hear this episode, a lot of you after the last episode believed she's still lying. This was all a hoax. She was complicit in this. Like, she's, you know, she's just lying about all this. She wants the attention. It's for other reasons, whatever it may be. After today's episode, I want you to let me know and I'll put a poll up to do you still think she's lying or do you think that there is any truth to it? And at first, when they had reached out about the interview, I'll be honest, I wasn't sure if I wanted to give her a platform. I didn't know that that would be responsible, giving her a platform to continue selling what a lot of people believe is a lie. But then as I stepped back and thought about it, I was like, there are a lot of questions. I still have some difficult questions that I am curious to know the answer. So here we are. So without further ado, we are going to jump right into the interview.
- [06:41]
Interviewer
Hi, Sheri. Welcome to the show.
- [06:43]
Sherry Papini
Thank you for having me.
- [06:44]
Interviewer
Yeah, my pleasure. So in your recent docu series, you discussed the 2016 abduction and what was once said was a hoax, you say was not a hoax. It actually did happen. Can you talk to me a little bit about that?
- [06:57]
Sherry Papini
Well, I think that the primary objective for me is to be able to tell my side of the story. And my federal charge is for lying to a federal officer. It is not for faking a kidnapping. And it's really important to understand that while there's narratives spinning out there that I've changed the story. I've never changed the story other than the identity of the person that held me captive. I've always maintained that I was held against my will and kidnapped and tortured. The details of that have never changed. I was just too afraid to come out with the identity of the person that held me captive.
- [07:37]
Interviewer
So can you walk me through that? Day from your perspective, right when you first went out to go for the run.
- [07:44]
Sherry Papini
So on November 2 in 2016, I had made arrangements with my ex boyfriend, the one that I had been secretly having an emotional affair with. It was getting to a point where things were getting a lot more serious and I wanted to end the relationship. He wanted to do that in person. He wanted continue talking. So he said that he wanted to come up into town and meet me in town. Things did not go according to plan. We were supposed to meet up in town with a friend present, and he ended up being at the end of my dirt road.
- [08:20]
Interviewer
Did he know you were going for a run that morning?
- [08:23]
Sherry Papini
Yeah, he had been frantically texting me all morning. The energy of it was super unusual. It went from just our casual texting to this very intense, pushy, aggressive text messaging. And in fact, I was really scared. It really concerned me. So I was trying to get my husband to come home and luring him in any way that I could to come home, and he didn't. He blew me off. And I was trying to avoid seeing him because he was so agitated. And there he was at the end of the dirt road because we'd been talking. So he knew my entire route. He knew where I was going to be and what I was doing.
- [09:00]
Interviewer
And what was it like when his car approached you? What happened? What did he say to you? Did he just get out? Did he shuffle you into the car? What happened?
- [09:07]
Sherry Papini
I was really scared. It was alarming, you know, when he pulled up, because it wasn't the plan. We were supposed to meet into town. And when you think about. I mean, you're a female. When you think about seeing another man, you wouldn't be in jogging attire, no makeup, and, you know, a sports bra. You would get yourself ready and there would be a process to that, and it was terrifying. You know, he wasn't supposed to be there. That's not what we had planned in terms of getting in the vehicle. This is where my case gets really complicated. Have you watched the docuseries? Okay, so you hear a lot of people say it's reasonable to conclude that she got in the car. And that's true. It's reasonable to say that I would have gotten in the car, but there's no memory of that. It's also reasonable to say that I would have refused to get in the car. I have no memory of that. The only person that holds that peace is James. And, you know, he has an objective to not implicate himself as well. So it's Highly unlikely we're ever going to get the truth of the story, but I have no memory of that. I remember getting up to the end of the dirt road and the phone dropping, and that's it.
- [10:19]
Interviewer
When did your memory then pick up again? Because it's a pretty long car ride from Northern California down here to Orange County.
- [10:25]
Sherry Papini
Absolutely. I've never done drugs. I've never even been drunk before. And the feeling that I had was completely out of body, like I felt very high. And so I woke up sporadically in the back of the car.
- [10:40]
Interviewer
You were in the backseat of the car?
- [10:42]
Sherry Papini
Backseat.
- [10:42]
Interviewer
Was it a sedan van?
- [10:44]
Sherry Papini
I really don't remember. Woke up in the back sporadically. I was nauseous. It was really hard to keep my eyes open. And the next thing I knew, I was in Southern California, and it was dark, so it was very clear that time had passed, and then I was in Southern California.
- [11:02]
Interviewer
How long would you say that that state of mind lasted of going in and out and feeling like perhaps you were drugged or under the influence of something?
- [11:09]
Sherry Papini
It's hard to recall, but I probably woke up maybe once or twice in the backseat, you know, just kind of blinking your eyes and trying to stay awake.
- [11:20]
Interviewer
Were you fully alert when you then were taken into his house?
- [11:24]
Sherry Papini
I would not say fully alert.
- [11:25]
Interviewer
Okay.
- [11:27]
Sherry Papini
It was the weirdest feeling. It was very strange. It was like my feet couldn't connect to the pavement. It was a very odd sensation. Again, I'd never done drugs before, and he had to put a hand underneath me to help me walk into the house, even.
- [11:44]
Interviewer
And where. When you guys walked into the house, where did he walk you to directly those first few moments?
- [11:49]
Sherry Papini
Walked me into the house and sat me down on the couch.
- [11:53]
Interviewer
And you say you dropped your phone. There's been a lot of conversation about how the headphones were placed, that they were so neatly stacked or coiled around. But you say it just. You dropped it in a panic and it just happened to fall that way, Correct? Yes.
- [12:07]
Sherry Papini
And also, I mean, we're relying on where law enforcement took that photograph, but Keith found the phone before law enforcement showed up. So we really don't know if it was tampered with or if it was manipulated in any way. I can tell you my side of the story, which is that the phone dropped. And I remember the sensation of the hair. You know, when you pull hair from something, you know, you have hair gets stuck in the gummies really easily. But in terms of how the phone was pulled, placed, there is. You're right. There's a lot of emphasis on it. And you're relying on a detail from me in a less than 2 second interaction while I'm already afraid trying to recall a decade later. And also, we don't know if it was tampered with in any way because Keith used the find My iPhone app and he found it prior to law enforcement coming to take photographs.
- [12:57]
Interviewer
Do you think he would have any reason to tamper with it or make it appear manipulated or staged?
- [13:03]
Sherry Papini
I don't think appearing manipulated or staged, no. But there's a possibility you could have touched it before it was photographed. Sure.
- [13:11]
Interviewer
Do you think that if he touched it and picked it up that he would then put it right back down with the headphones neatly wrapped around? I'm just wondering what the inference is there.
- [13:21]
Sherry Papini
Well, there's a lot of emphasis put on it and so there's a lot of reliance on my testimony for it. And it's just a really difficult detail to recall. And also putting all of the information on me, like, I don't believe that I was the last person to touch it.
- [13:39]
Interviewer
Okay, so going back to when James walks you into the home, what is he saying to you in those moments? Is he communicating? Is he silent? What's happening? Cause I would imagine you were. Have you had a bunch of questions at that point?
- [13:53]
Sherry Papini
I would like to say I had a bunch of questions, but I was mostly just frozen. I was terrified. I was not supposed to be there. That was not part of the deal. And where we had flirted here and there about like, oh, yeah, it'd be great to come and see you. There was no plan. So it was mostly just a frozen state of, oh my God, now I'm so far from home, I have no help. I don't feel well. I feel under the influence. What do I do? And James doesn't really say a whole lot. So there wasn't a lot of conversation. It was just a lot of scared. I was really scared.
- [14:29]
Interviewer
Do you think that the reason he abducted you was because he thought that he was helping you or because he wanted to be with you and he didn't want anybody else to get in the way of that?
- [14:40]
Sherry Papini
I think probably a little bit of both.
- [14:42]
Interviewer
And if he thought that you were consenting to that and that you wanted to be with him as well, or that you were leaving an abusive or dangerous situation, why do you feel that he would feel the need to put you under the influence or potentially drug you?
- [14:58]
Sherry Papini
Good point. James has a really sick mind. He's a very sick minded person, in my opinion. I think he struggles with quite a lot of mental illness. In my opinion. When we look at the evidence, when we look at the behavior, when we look at the pattern of behavior, there's a sadism there and there's a really sick minded person there. So it's difficult for me to try and surmise what he was thinking. I really. I was just terrified of him at that point.
- [15:29]
Interviewer
From this, from this part. I'm sorry. Aside from the abduction and this incident, what makes you believe that there's mental illness at play or an element, as you put it, as sadism to do.
- [15:43]
Sherry Papini
The harm to my body that he did without consent? It's one thing to be in that community and to be into that, but there has to be permission. And there was not consent, and there was not permission.
- [15:55]
Interviewer
Okay, can you talk to me a little bit about James? And I know you guys had a previous background together and some experiences. Aside from. Again, aside from this experience, what was that like?
- [16:07]
Sherry Papini
Well, our relationship ended really abruptly. Things so when I first met him, as you know, it takes a while to get to know someone and it doesn't all come come out right in the beginning. And after a while of our relationship, some pretty disturbing things started coming out. And I realized pretty quickly that we weren't a match.
- [16:29]
Interviewer
Can you share what those were?
- [16:31]
Sherry Papini
Particularly in the bedroom? We were not into the same things and it was very uncomfortable. And I'm a really loving, open person. I'm not someone that's gonna shame someone or judge someone. I certainly know what I'm not into though. And it ended really abruptly. In fact, he went to work, he was late to coming home, and I packed my car and I left really quickly and that was it. And then we didn't get in touch again until his brother died and he contacted my mom and we ended up sending condolences to the family. And then at that point, I'd been so sheltered and so controlled in my relationship that when he reached out to me, it wasn't like I had the opportunity to just have friends anymore. It was like a friend finally. And to me it was safe to be able to text message him because he lived in Southern California.
- [17:24]
Interviewer
Did you purchase the burner phone to text him on or did he purchase that for you?
- [17:28]
Sherry Papini
He did because I had gotten caught. So there was a time where my ex husband had caught me text messaging someone that was not acceptable to him and I had gotten in trouble.
- [17:39]
Interviewer
Was it another man that you were having an emotional affair with? Okay. Oh, so he caught you guys talking in the past. So what made it seem like now, aside from just feeling sheltered, perhaps, and isolated, what made you feel compelled to have James be the one that you're confiding in and that you start this emotional affair with?
- [17:56]
Sherry Papini
Well, when you have these vulnerable openings for someone and you have someone that knows how to prey on those openings, he's a predator. You know, in my opinion, looking back on it now, it's like I left that door wide open. That's really what it comes down to, is he found an opening. I was incredibly vulnerable. I was desperate to have some kind of friendship, some kind of engagement, and he found his way in.
- [18:26]
Interviewer
And how long did that communication and emotional affair continue before the abduction took place?
- [18:34]
Sherry Papini
Not very long.
- [18:35]
Interviewer
Months, weeks, days, probably. And in that communication, were you guys talking about ever running away together or you leaving Keith and you guys being together and.
- [18:46]
Sherry Papini
Oh, I was constantly talking about leaving Keith. I was miserable. Miserable.
- [18:51]
Interviewer
Sure.
- [18:51]
Sherry Papini
There was flirting, there was engagement. You know, I wanted someone to talk to. So there were certain things I was doing to keep him engaged.
- [18:57]
Interviewer
What kind of things?
- [18:59]
Sherry Papini
Going along with some of the things that he said or. Well, you know, having a relationship with somebody. You participate in having a relationship with somebody.
- [19:07]
Interviewer
Of course. Were there things, though, I guess I'm wondering, were there things that he ever said alluding to wanting you and him to run away together or to get Keith out of the picture so you guys could be together and be happy? Or was it more surface level, just flirtatious text messaging, maybe even sexual text messaging? Just trying to get an understanding of the context.
- [19:26]
Sherry Papini
Sure it was not sexual. I'm not really like that, but sure it was. It was lightly flirtatious, I would say, but it wasn't sexual in manner. I was doing a lot of complaining, you know, I was really desperate for help, in my opinion. I had a deeply abusive relationship with my ex husband, and I didn't know what to do. I had two children. I didn't know where to go and who to talk to, who to confide in. And it was really clear that James understood what I was going through and that I really. I should consider leaving him. So there was a lot of that.
- [20:03]
Interviewer
Now, for such a detailed story, when all of this came to a head, when you were reunited with your family and you came home, there was a very detailed story all the way down to the women who allegedly had abducted you. What took place? Can you talk to me about how that story was, crafted.
- [20:24]
Sherry Papini
It? Everyone in this story were real people. There's no one that's made up. And I had to conceal his identity in some way or another. I was being watched by law enforcement. I was being watched by Keith. I was being watched by James. And the end goal was if I kept him secret, I got to go home.
- [20:48]
Interviewer
And he made that deal with you. How did you convince him to let you leave?
- [20:53]
Sherry Papini
Oh, my gosh. There's so many things that came into play there. You know, we had the. What's it called? The ransom. I couldn't. Sorry, couldn't. The ransom had come out, and my husband was on the news everywhere. It was blowing up everywhere. James was seeing on social media that everyone was looking. He had completely broken my body. And I think part of him really, truly understood that even though I was participating in some things, to be able to let off the chain, to be able to have more food, to be able to have certain freedoms, he had to understand that I didn't want it. I mean, there was plenty of times where I said that I didn't want it. And you saw the pictures. I was broken. My body was broken. So there had to be a reason, given that he would let me go. And because of the news coverage, it was something that we got to discuss regularly. You know, if we want this to go away, you have to let me go. There was even, like, convincing him, you know, like, it's going to be okay. I won't, you know, say anything about you. I'll cover you, and maybe we'll talk again at some point. I was going to say whatever I had to say to get home to my children. You know, I was held captive and tortured for 22 days. I would have told him anything to get back home, to stop what was happening and get back to my babies. So there was a lot. And it was very strange. The whole thing was really strange. Trying to come up with some kind of, you know, he had to come up with some kind of alibi. He had to come up with some story. I just wanted to go home foreign.
- [22:40]
Co-host
Just keep it real with you for a second. Especially because, like, over 85% of the demographic listening is women. So I feel like we can just talk female to female. And look, I know that a lot of us, including myself, sometimes can feel off down there. Let's just call it what it is, right? I get it. It's tmi. But we.
- [22:59]
Interviewer
That's what we do here.
- [22:59]
Co-host
We're besties, and we just talk about it. Whether it's discomfort, just feeling off, maybe it's something like odor. It's something nobody really ever talks about. But it can make us feel so uncomfortable, so self conscious.
- [23:11]
Annie Elise
All the things.
- [23:12]
Co-host
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- [24:21]
Annie Elise
This episode of Serial Lessly is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are all things that people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds because Progressive offers discounts for paying in full, owning a home and more. Plus, you can count on their great customer service to help you when you need it. So your dollar goes a long way. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save on car insurance, Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations.
- [24:56]
Sherry Papini
What is dedication?
- [24:58]
Producer
The thing that drives me every day as a dad is Dariana. We call them Dada for short. Every day he's hungry for something, whether it's attention, affection, knowledge. And there's this huge responsibility in making sure that when he's no longer under my wing that he's a good person. I want him to be able to sit back one day and go, we worked together. We did a good job.
- [25:18]
Interviewer
That's dedication.
- [25:20]
Sherry Papini
Find out more@fatherhood.gov brought to you by.
- [25:23]
Interviewer
The U.S. department of Health and Human.
- [25:24]
Sherry Papini
Services and the Ad Council.
- [25:33]
Interviewer
Did you help him at all craft his alibi and his story so that you both were on the same page with what the story was going to be once you returned home?
- [25:41]
Sherry Papini
I was just Afraid. You know, he kept saying he's seen the news coverage. He's into crime tv. Like, everyone has seen crime tv, where interrogation videos get leaked and they get put out. So he knew that mine were eventually going to get put out. And he had said, I'm going to be watching you. I'm going to be watching the coverage. So I always had that looming over me. You know, every time I had interrogation with law enforcement, there's a camera on me. And so it was like I had law enforcement watching me. I had Keith sitting next to me. I had James in the lens of a camera. All I could rely on was telling the truth about what happened to my body and telling the truth about what happened to me during the 22 days. Because if I could do that really accurately, like I did and just not say his name, then I could continue telling the truth. And that's why I think with law enforcement, my story was so believable, because when I could recount the injuries and I could recount how they happened and I could tell them the details of the room and I could make sketches of the room, it was very believable because it made sense. But not being able to say his identity didn't track. And there's this big piece that everybody missed, which is my primary abuser was sitting next to me in that interrogation, and to him, he was far more interested in finding out whether I had an affair than figuring out what happened to my body. There's so much ego wrapped in my case. Ego with law enforcement, ego with my ex husband, ego with James, ego with me. Everybody had a stake in this case.
- [27:17]
Interviewer
So were you more afraid to tell the truth because you were scared that James was going to retaliate or because Keith would think that you were having an affair, or both?
- [27:28]
Sherry Papini
Both. Oh, my gosh. So many things can be true at the same time. I was more afraid of what my ex husband was going to do than law enforcement. I mean, going to prison was the safest I've felt in 16 years. I was far more comfortable with the thought of potentially going to prison and lying to a law enforcement officer than dealing with what I was going to deal with back at home with Keith. And my fears are real. I mean, you're seeing what happened. He took everything from me, and he ensured that my divorce trial happened while I was in prison. I lost everything.
- [27:59]
Interviewer
Do you think that that divorce trial happened while you were in prison? Just. Do you think he was strategic in that or. It happened because once you came out saying that, it was A hoax, and that there wasn't an abduction, that he just wanted to file for divorce as quickly as possible. So that coincidentally aligned with when you were incarcerated?
- [28:17]
Sherry Papini
No, I mean, when you have a lot of valuable assets, it's fairly common for spouses, when one spouse gets in trouble, to separate the assets. And that was his point, because he has a lot of assets. He also had a lot of control. He made sure meticulously, even though he, as you see in the docu series, took literally almost all of the Social Security disability from me. So that's a pretty fair contribution, if one to say when you get a divorce, that there is contributions on both sides into the money. He removed my name off of all the assets. So while I was contributing to them, my name wasn't on them, which demonstrates a level of control. And when we got married, he wanted to get a post nuptial agreement unfairly signed because he'd caught me texting someone. And so there was all of this coercive control going on in my marriage and during the separation of assets. I mean, you see in the docu series, you get a little snippet of what that recording said of him. And there's so much more detail of it in the book, which I love, because it really demonstrates what I was going through. But when it comes down to it, if I would have signed this unfair agreement, I would have been able to go home. If I would have just done everything that he wanted and done everything that he said, I'd be home with my kids. And I wasn't willing to do that. I wasn't willing to give every ounce of me up anymore. I'd rather go to prison. I was about to go to prison. And then while I was in prison, he didn't have to have the trial while I was there. He didn't have to. He wanted to. Because it was a really good strategy on his part to do something where my lawyer couldn't prepare, where I couldn't prepare. I couldn't call witnesses, I couldn't have evidence. And as you know, I have a moral turpitude charge, so my testimony is invalid. And he got everything. Everything. My family's heirlooms. He still has my grandfather's truck, for God's sakes. The boat that I paid for, everything. The properties. He has everything. I got shoes and clothes, my marriage.
- [30:30]
Interviewer
I want to go back. Just a. No, that's okay. And the kids?
- [30:35]
Co-host
Is that what you said?
- [30:36]
Sherry Papini
Yeah, we got everything.
- [30:37]
Interviewer
Now I just want to go back for A few minutes ago, you had Said that when you were explaining everything to the police, that you were telling them what had happened, everything that happened with James. That's why the story, as you put it, made sense and why it all tied together. But rather than because it makes sense, it would just. Would it be easier to just say. Because that's the truth of what happened?
- [31:01]
Sherry Papini
Yeah.
- [31:02]
Interviewer
So. And just to confirm, you don't remember giving any sort of consent or to getting in the car with James, to any of the injuries he inflicted to anything that had to being there for those 22 days?
- [31:15]
Sherry Papini
No.
- [31:17]
Interviewer
You had also mentioned that some of his relatives were involved or not necessarily involved in the abduction, but they knew what was going on. Can you share a little bit more about that?
- [31:27]
Sherry Papini
Yeah, they were. So the apartment complex was kind of, from my understanding, a little bit of a village. It's not like I had the freedom to go outside. But James explained that there was an uncle at the end of the cul de sac and a cousin who had a wife as well at the end of the cul de sac. So they were there. Plus, you know, he had to demonstrate a level of control, so he had to make it known. I have friends in law enforcement. Here's what's going to happen to you. I have people surrounding me everywhere. I have friends everywhere. You know, he. He had that very thug mentality.
- [32:02]
Interviewer
Okay. And do you believe that's true, that he had friends in law enforcement to this day?
- [32:07]
Co-host
You believe that?
- [32:07]
Sherry Papini
Sure.
- [32:08]
Interviewer
Okay. And again, I just want to go back to. To the moment when he allowed you to go and reunite with your kids. I can imagine that that was the best feeling in the world.
- [32:16]
Co-host
I'm a mom as well.
- [32:17]
Interviewer
I can only imagine how. What a feeling that was like and how you probably felt a sense of safety. What was it, though, that gave him the confidence to let you go without being fearful that you would tell the police that it was him. You said that he was nervous because the news was everywhere, that your face was everywhere. Everybody knew what was going on. So what made him confident enough to let you leave and not fear that you would tell the police everything that he had done?
- [32:46]
Sherry Papini
I think James also was well aware of how afraid of my husband I was, and I made that a point. You know, I don't want my husband to find out that I was having an affair. And when I was trying to break off things with James, that's something that I continue to say. You know, Keith is catching me. I'm too afraid. He knew how afraid of Keith I was, and that's what led him to come to Reading? Because he said, if you don't, I'm just going to come to Reading. I know he works at Best Buy. I know where he lives. I know where you live. So it was like this rock and hard place that I was stuck. I created the situation myself. Unfortunately, I really wasn't well enough to understand this internal validation instead of external validation. But he knew how afraid of Keith I was. And so there was this insurance for him knowing that I wouldn't say that I had an emotional affair. I mean, for goodness sakes, in studying my case and getting all of the evidence, there's so many people that heard Keith joking about chopping me up into little pieces and burying me in the backyard and feeding me to the wild boars where we used to go and hunt. I mean, it's in there. He says it himself. Even he'd casually joke like that. So I was terrified.
- [33:57]
Interviewer
Well, you say that James knew that you were so scared of Keith finding out that there was an emotional affair, but how was that a big enough fear of his knowing that you would be scared enough about him discovering the emotional affair that you wouldn't talk about to the police? The 22 days of abuse, branding, abduction, all of that.
- [34:18]
Sherry Papini
Yeah. And I also. I think James's mind is a little broken. You know, he. He likes doing those things to people. He likes participating in these really sadistic sexual acts. So to him, he almost doesn't necessarily see that much wrong with it, which is part of the problem.
- [34:39]
Interviewer
But if it's forced, he certainly would know that something's wrong. Correct.
- [34:42]
Sherry Papini
Not when your brain's that broken.
- [34:44]
Interviewer
Okay.
- [34:44]
Sherry Papini
You know, I think that James suffers from a lot of mental illness that really needs help. He really needs help. And I didn't understand that because when we dated, we were so much longer. Twenty years had gone by. So whatever happened to him in the process of. When we ended our relationship, you know, it's kind of like when someone goes from amateur level to professional level. Whatever happened in those years made him really sick.
- [35:11]
Interviewer
And do you think that when he finally let you go and he was confident, as you put it, that you were so scared about Keith finding out about the emotional affair that you wouldn't say anything and that you would stay quiet? But what about the fear of the police interrogating you and trying to get the truth? Did he know you were gonna tell this story about two Hispanic women? Did he have any sort of insight or knowledge into that or help you craft that story?
- [35:37]
Sherry Papini
Not particularly. It kind of unfolded as it went along, you know, I had given a slight indication that I was going to conceal his identity. And for me, I had to do what I had to do as quickly as possible. And I regret it so much. But it was a quick decision made under a lot of pressure. And frankly, my first testimony, I was high, still in the hospital, and it was this unraveling of just trying to hold onto. If I just talk about what's true and if I just try and talk about the details about what's true, then I could continue talking about it. So I was trying desperately to stay away from talking about the identity of the people that were there. I had to come up with something.
- [36:25]
Interviewer
Did he know that you were gonna come up with a story or a different abductor prior to letting you go? Or he just let you go saying, I know she won't talk. She's too scared of Keith finding out. So I'm gonna take my chances and roll the dice on this. I'll let you go?
- [36:39]
Sherry Papini
Well, towards the end of captivity, he could have told me to put my hand in a blender, and I would have done it. Like, I was such a mess. I was. I was completely broken. He broke me mentally. You know, when you. When we talk about solitary confinement to break someone. On top of that, I was drugged and I was sexually abused, and I was chained to a wall, and I was tortured. I was broken. I would have. I would have done anything that he said at that point.
- [37:13]
Interviewer
Why do you think he finally let you go after putting you through so much?
- [37:19]
Sherry Papini
I think his family was starting to break. I think that the news story was just getting bigger and bigger and bigger. I think everyone was starting to get afraid.
- [37:32]
Interviewer
Do you believe that his family knew that he abducted you, or do you think that they believed he was helping you escape a dangerous marriage?
- [37:39]
Sherry Papini
I don't know.
- [37:40]
Interviewer
Did they ever come by the house while you were there? Did they. Did they talk with you?
- [37:45]
Sherry Papini
No one talked to me.
- [37:46]
Interviewer
But they would come in and just, what, look at you and see you?
- [37:50]
Sherry Papini
There were times where I was really drugged. There were times where I was in series of undress and chained to the wall really deliriously.
- [37:59]
Interviewer
Do you know what he drugged you with?
- [38:03]
Sherry Papini
No. They read the report at the hospital when my drug results came through, and it was a concoction of a lot of things. They still won't give me my records. They won't give me my SART exam, so my rape exam. They won't give me the results of the drugs that did come out.
- [38:18]
Interviewer
Why Won't they give you that?
- [38:19]
Sherry Papini
It's a good question. It's a good question.
- [38:22]
Interviewer
Have you ever tried filing for a FOIA request?
- [38:24]
Sherry Papini
We've tried everything. I've tried even retrieving my own medical records and I can't. It's my medical records.
- [38:31]
Interviewer
I can't and I apologize.
- [38:34]
Sherry Papini
Something else that we tried. I feel like we tried something else.
- [38:37]
Producer
We had the might of Warner Brothers discovery behind us and the FBI still refused.
- [38:44]
Interviewer
Did you, Stephen, release the medical records?
- [38:46]
Producer
Correct. I think it's very telling that the FBI has not released any records, including any of the summary reports of the interviews with James and James family.
- [38:57]
Sherry Papini
So I don't have a report to give you. I can tell you what they said that they found in my blood, but I don't know for sure.
- [39:04]
Interviewer
I was just more curious if, while you were there, if you remember, if it was something that he was forcing you to drink orally, if it was something perhaps he was injecting you with, if it was something, you know, some other agent that he used. Just curious. I was just curious of what method he was using to drug you.
- [39:21]
Sherry Papini
I'm gonna say it was mostly in the food.
- [39:23]
Interviewer
Okay.
- [39:24]
Sherry Papini
There was a little drink that he would give me on occasion. I don't wanna say that it was needles, but it's hard to say, you know, when you're unconscious, there's a lot of things that you don't know. I don't really know.
- [39:38]
Interviewer
Now, to go back to some of the physical pain that he put you through and things he inflicted. A big point of that and what a lot of people are discussing is the branding. And I know that there has been a lot of conversation about the wood burning tool and hobby lobby and all of that. Can you just. Can you walk me through what that was like when it happened, how you came to find out what tool he was using, why he chose that particular word, and I guess just share a little bit about that because as I'm sure you know, there is just a lot of dialogue around that.
- [40:13]
Sherry Papini
Yeah, it's interesting to see that there's so much dialogue around that. I. In my opinion, I don't think it's biblical. I mean, James is not religious. It seems to have. There seems to be a lot of emphasis around it being biblical. I don't think it's that. And I think if law enforcement would have done a thorough investigation on him, they probably would have found it somewhere. I mean, in my opinion, I think he still has my hair. Even so, James is like a memento kind of person. I think that there's some kind of attachment there, but I don't know. You know, he didn't tell me. It wasn't until months and months later that I could even see look at it, you know, it was so painful. So I have no idea.
- [41:03]
Interviewer
Just to confirm, you did not give him any sort of direction or advice as to what type of tool to buy, where he could buy it, or what to do with the burning and the branding?
- [41:14]
Sherry Papini
No. I mean, we'd been talking and it's something that I used to do. I used to woodcraft. It's something that I would regularly have. He'd been on the phone with me at a time or two when I'd gone to crafting stores. It was, you know, it was heartbreaking hearing all of that. It's heartbreaking hearing that he used something that I had spoken about. Making a gift, you know, for my husband at some point. Something that I used to enjoy. Just like running, not having that anymore.
- [41:47]
Interviewer
You don't run anymore? No, I think. And I'm not sure if you've seen this out there. One of the biggest points of contention, I believe, surrounding the branding is that a typical male may not know to go to a craft store, may not even know what Hobby Lobby is, certainly wouldn't know what a wood branding tool is, and that if someone had the inclination to leave some sort of mark or branding, why not use a utensil or a wire hanger or a barbecue utensil, something of that? Why specifically a wood burning tool which then aligns with, as you know, your Pinterest, saves your pins, you, your past crafting and how that's such an overlap of coincidence.
- [42:31]
Sherry Papini
I don't necessarily think it's a coincidence. I think it's reasonable for him to have been on the phone with me and have talked about the tools because I talked about it. I talked about the crafting that I had done, I talked about the little things that I had done. And frankly, he did use other tools. I mean, there was different burns in different places for other things. So it wasn't just that. I think what it was for him is it was about the marking and it was about the tattoo. It wasn't necessarily about the tool. You know, I. I don't even think there was a Hobby Lobby in Reading at the time. So I think it was. We'd been on the phone and we discussed it and I talked about certain things that I'd used and it just came to an idea for him. But that's something you'd have to ask him.
- [43:20]
Interviewer
Well, he would have purchased the tool here in Orange county, correct? Not Redding?
- [43:25]
Sherry Papini
Yeah, I have no idea. But the, you know, him going to Hobby Lobby, like that's not something that I would have provided for him. I'd been on the phone with him a time or two before and it's in discussion. So it's reasonable to say that he knew what to do and where to get it because we talked about it. Because it was something that was a part of my life. It's not something that I would ever consider to concoct to do anything to my body. It's just something that I would do, crafting. It was James that was fascinated by burning someone's skin.
- [43:57]
Interviewer
And you say the tattoo, you say the tattoo was important to him, but you don't think it has a biblical meaning. Why do you think that tattoo was so important to him? Or why do you think that word carried so much weight?
- [44:10]
Sherry Papini
I don't know. That's what I'm saying. Like, it would have been great for law enforcement to have done a thorough investigation and known more. But I don't know, it doesn't make any sense to me. And I studied it in prison, after prison, before prison, tried to figure out, make sense of it, you know, it's on my body, what does it mean? And you can't make sense of it. Even law enforcement tried to study it in the Bible and it just doesn't. So if it doesn't fit, maybe it doesn't mean that.
- [44:41]
Interviewer
What, what was the moment or when was the moment? I should say when you first felt as though you were going to tell the truth. Your perspective of what happened and that it was not a hoax, that this was real. When was that moment for you?
- [44:57]
Sherry Papini
I was starting to get there right after my arrest. So I'm sorry, I'm smiling because it was like, it was so wonderful. It was relieving to be able to tell the truth finally. And after my arrest, I was staying with Keith Papini's sister. So my sister in law, Suzanne. And it was like I was finally in this bubble of safety and I had someone saying, I love you and no matter what, I'm here. I don't care what happened, because you're alive and I love you so much that you're alive that it doesn't matter. And whatever it is, just, I'm a therapist. I'll help you work through it. So I had this beautiful environment to start opening up to, telling the details about it. And then the plea Agreement came, and then Keith signed. Tried to get me to sign some really unfair agreements to separate our assets. And I made the decision clearly not to go home. And then I could finally say it. I had an affair. And I'm not afraid to say it anymore. And here's what actually happened. Because what I couldn't do was say to Keith Papini, it was an affair, because that meant losing everything and particularly losing my children.
- [46:09]
Interviewer
So what was that conversation like with Keith for the first time, when you said, I have been having. I had an affair with James, but I did not fake my abduction. He truly did abduct me, and everything that happened was real. What was his response during all of that?
- [46:23]
Sherry Papini
He didn't care. He didn't care, did he? Those transcripts are in here of everything that he said is in my book.
- [46:30]
Interviewer
So at that point, he was. When was that conversation?
- [46:33]
Sherry Papini
Right before I signed the plea agreement. Right before he filed for divorce. When he tried to get me to sign away my entire life, all of my rights to everything.
- [46:40]
Interviewer
And did he believe you when you were telling him that, or did he think you still.
- [46:44]
Sherry Papini
Keith never believed me.
- [46:46]
Interviewer
So he believed that you just were having an emotional affair, that then you went down to have a physical affair and that you staged it.
- [46:52]
Sherry Papini
I mean, he says very clearly he knew that I was lying from day one, what he was trying to do the entire time. Because there's six years that went by. Six years of being with my children, being the primary caregiver, loving my children, being home with my children. And for six years, he was meticulously trying to find some way to catch me in a lie or to find out whether I was having an affair or not.
- [47:15]
Interviewer
Because he didn't believe the abduction.
- [47:16]
Sherry Papini
No, it wasn't about what happened to my body, to Keith. Keith did not care that I was injured. He did not care that I was hurt. He killed cared if I had an affair on him. That was what was most important. He cared about, one, getting on the cameras, and two, whether I had an affair or not, because it says something about a man's marriage. If a woman's willing to step out, it starts to open the door to the possibility that our marriage was not perfect.
- [47:41]
Interviewer
Do you think that he cared about the affair and that being the root of it? Because to him, that would explain why everything else around it could have been fabricated, that there would have needed to be a reason for this abduction to have happened, for you to have staged this abduction, and that the affair would just have been the root of that or do you think that that really is the only he wouldn't have even cared if you faked an abduction. He only cared if you had an affair.
- [48:05]
Sherry Papini
He only cared if I had an affair. So if another man would have touched me, he would have never touched me again. He wouldn't have cared if I got branded, beat, chained to a wall, starved, drugged, raped. That's not valuable to him.
- [48:26]
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- [49:41]
Interviewer
Did you tell your children around the same time what had really happened?
- [49:44]
Sherry Papini
No. Oh no, my kids are 9 and 11. That's not a problem.
- [49:48]
Interviewer
But just that it was a real. Not the details of course of what happened, but just that this was real and that you didn't fake this. Because I would imagine regardless their age and how young they are, they would, I would imagine, be very scared when you were gone for those three weeks. Then to hear that you were complicit in that and that it was fake, that would, I would imagine confused them quite a bit to wonder why mommy's away so long. So did you then tell them that it wasn't your choice? That you truly didn't want to be away from them?
- [50:16]
Sherry Papini
Of course now it's very different. Now my children are forcefully being alienated in every way possible. Plus I mean my ex husband came out with a huge docu series after that. My son wasn't even comfortable putting his last name on basketball banners at school. So my children are going through an exceptional amount of emotional trauma at the moment. We're trying to Push as hard as possible to get them in therapy. But Keith Papini doesn't believe in therapy. We're trying to get reunification therapy. He's denying reunification therapy. We're trying to get my kids as much help as possible, but until I get my rights back, I can't reach them.
- [50:51]
Interviewer
What's the process? What's the process to get your rights back?
- [50:55]
Sherry Papini
So we started the trial last month, and then Keith Papini took the stand and talked for hours upon hours upon hours. So we had to get a continuance. And now the continuance is going to be in August, and then the judge can make a ruling. And the custody was granted to Keith. Because I was in prison, it makes reasonable sense to give the custody to the father while the other parent is in prison. So in order to change those rights, we have to get through a trial to have a ruling from the judge.
- [51:28]
Interviewer
And what's his argument right now as to why he should continue to have sole custody? I know he had made claims of Munchausen's by proxy. I know he had made claims of unfit parent, just being neglectful and an unfit parent. But what is his current argument? Now that you're no longer incarcerated, unfortunately.
- [51:45]
Sherry Papini
Keith is going to have to answer to his false allegations. There's so much evidence that concludes that that was unfounded. And unfortunately, in family law, when you see toxic divorces just like mine, it's actually quite common for exes to make false abuse allegations. And he's going to have to answer to that. And when you are so stiffly unable to co parent, you end up losing more custody. And he doesn't follow court orders. Already he's continued to say he doesn't follow court orders. And that demonstrates someone that has such issues of control that they're not going to be able to co parent. And when you demonstrate that, you end up losing quite a lot. So I'm really hopeful and I know that I'm going to get my rights back to my kids. It's going to be a process and it's going to take a while. But like Judge Barton said, we don't take children for lying. So he has the custody right now, but it's not going to remain all of his. We just have to wait until August.
- [52:44]
Interviewer
How often are you able to see your kids right now? And what are those visits like?
- [52:49]
Sherry Papini
Right now I'm very stuck because family court system is very, very, very slow. So I get to see them once a month for an hour, supervised, because that's what Keith Papini is ordering. And studies have shown that supervised visitation, when it's unnecessary, is not good for the children. It's really not. So we're fighting to get more. But even the supervised visitation, he changes it, shifts it constantly. I mean, our last trial concluded with a court order that had a specified location for me to go to. And he's already canceled it and changed it and hired someone privately. So he just. He's not reliable in any way and thinks that he's above the law and can just do whatever he wants. And that's going to become a problem for him very quickly. I'm supposed to have phone contact with them every Sunday. He unilaterally changed the schedule and just doesn't answer, which is called contempt of court. So it's really hard for me, it's extremely hard for me to go and attempt to mend a co parenting relationship with someone who just refuses to follow even a court order.
- [53:59]
Interviewer
What are those monthly visits like with your kids? Are they warm and accepting? Do you feel like you are noticing alienation?
- [54:08]
Sherry Papini
My son and I, and we're incredibly close. Incredibly close. And now he doesn't go. I haven't seen him in months.
- [54:21]
Interviewer
Oh, you haven't even seen him. So the monthly visitations have been canceled as well.
- [54:26]
Sherry Papini
He. He's not going. And it's generally children. It's highly unusual behavior, especially when you had an established relationship with your child. It's a pretty clear sign of alienation.
- [54:46]
Interviewer
He's making the choice not to come.
- [54:48]
Sherry Papini
We don't know. I haven't spoken to him, so I don't know. That's what Keith is concluding. We don't know. We haven't spoken to Tyler. My visits with Violet are bubbly and full of glitter and talking about crushes at school and they're great.
- [55:03]
Interviewer
Are they allowed to call you outside of Sunday if they want to talk with you? Do they call you?
- [55:09]
Sherry Papini
I don't know what it's like in the house right now, but given my observation of how my marriage went, my kids don't have access like that. My phone calls with Violet are wonderful. She's always bubbly and bright and our relationship is still solidly there. There's a lot of unknowns here, though. He's not allowing me to participate in anything, so I can't get to them. There's a lot that I don't know. And as you know, you're a mom when you have other people observing and the kids don't feel like they have any privacy if dad is sitting right There watching everything that you say and manipulating everything that you say. There's not a lot of freedom. I'd imagine my kids are quite intimidated. And I'd imagine that there's a lot going on just based on what I went through in my marriage. And, you know, they just. They're gonna get the love of their mother back really soon, and it's gonna be a process, but I'm never gonna stop.
- [56:07]
Interviewer
Going back to just the dynamic between Keith and your sister. You've alluded to an inappropriate relationship there, and there being something perhaps maybe romantic or just something that's a certain kind of closeness. Can you share anything about that?
- [56:28]
Sherry Papini
Keith and Sheila's relationship, in my opinion, is highly inappropriate.
- [56:32]
Interviewer
What makes you think that?
- [56:34]
Sherry Papini
Growing up with a sister who is incredibly jealous of you all of the time, it's like she didn't. She suddenly came into my life when I went missing, and it appeared as if it was very valuable to her to be incredibly clingy to Keith and on the cameras. And just what I witnessed, any female would be uncomfortable with, regardless of her status as my sister. It was very uncomfortable to be around. I mean, they would regularly joke at dinner tables and things like that about, like, Sheila being his second wife. That's pretty inappropriate.
- [57:15]
Interviewer
How often would you say they are together? Is she around your kids now? Quite often. Does she have a relationship with you or your parents or anyone?
- [57:23]
Sherry Papini
So my daughter has mentioned several times about the amount of visits that my sister has with my children, which is very uncomfortable. I've never allowed my children to spend the night at her house ever. And now they regularly do that. It's very uncomfortable. It's incredibly uncomfortable. My sister is not kind to my parents. And just because you are a child does not give you the right to abuse your parents. And she's incredibly, in my opinion, watching what she does. She's very abusive to my parents. And it's.
- [57:58]
Interviewer
Can you elaborate on that? Of how she's abusive to your parents and why you don't allow your children to spend the night at her house?
- [58:08]
Sherry Papini
The book talks about that a lot. There's a lot of. I feel like the book answers all of the questions that aren't in the documentary, because we get these little hints of things, and then people are just like you, like, ooh, tell me more. What's in there? What's that about? It was incredible to be able to write the book in a way where I kind of witnessed what people wanted to know and what they wanted to see and. And got to really be Unfiltered and raw and not have to hold back in any way. My sister and I have a very complex relationship. We were never close. We were close for a short period of time and in that time it always just seemed like she was inappropriately clingy with my ex husband. That still remains to be. Generally when you have a family system and you divorce, there's a separation that happens and they have gotten closer.
- [59:08]
Interviewer
You've gotten closer with his sister though, as well, haven't you? So that would be. That could be said on both sides.
- [59:14]
Sherry Papini
I'm not flirting with this sister. No, of course not.
- [59:16]
Interviewer
But still, closeness in the relationship to where it's not a clean cut divorce, where both sides of the family go separately.
- [59:22]
Sherry Papini
Sure, I understand your theory there. Suzanne is steeped in therapy, right? So when you go to someone for help and there's something going on and you have someone that's willing to understand a dynamic of a marriage and then open her home to you, I think that says a lot. When you have someone who's grown up very jealous of you and very abusive to you and very horrible to you, and then also alienating your family and alienating your children, it's participating in healthy acts, participating in toxic acts. So there's toxicity going on with Keith and Sheila, and there's something very healthy going on between Suzanne and I. And Suzanne has not alienated herself from her family. She's very open to having a relationship with Keith. She's very open to having a relationship with her family. That family system is very harsh. It's assimilate or you're annihilated. If you don't do what we want, then you don't exist. That's a very toxic, highly inappropriate family system. Whereas my relationship with Suzanne is very open and welcoming and steeped in solutions and unconditional love. It's very different.
- [60:37]
Interviewer
What was your sister Sheila's response when you first returned after the abduction and when you then later confided in her, I would imagine about the truth of everything. Were you guys close at that point? Was the relationship already broken? What was her response?
- [60:54]
Sherry Papini
What was her response? In what way?
- [60:55]
Interviewer
When you returned back and when you told her the truth, eventually, when you had told her the truth of what had happened.
- [61:01]
Sherry Papini
I don't think I ever got to the truth with Sheila. When we, you know, she. A long time ago, right after the plea agreement happened or prior. Right prior to the plea agreement happening, she posted this public statement saying that I had finally told her that everything was a lie and that Wasn't true. Suzanne was sitting in the room when that discussion happened. And, you know, I lied to law enforcement officers because I was too afraid to tell the truth. And so now my testimony doesn't have. It doesn't carry the same weight. So I have to back things up with evidence, everything that I say. But we have seen so many other people that are surrounding me that just get away with lying about everything and aren't held to the same degree, which is infuriating, because then I have to then back up the evidence to support the lie that they had just told about me. And it's pretty. It's a complicated life. It's like I've been given a life sentence now. I did.
- [62:07]
Interviewer
Speaking of that, you were recently on the Vial files, and they asked you a series of questions. And you mentioned when he asked about if you were trying to get law enforcement to question the others who either were aware or participated, and you said that you were trying. Can you explain how you're trying?
- [62:25]
Sherry Papini
Well, we have. It's complicated. We have a complicated relationship with law enforcement already. Plus we have statute of limitations. And because of my charge, it makes it really complicated. But we're trying. I'm trying to find every different appropriate avenue that I can take.
- [62:43]
Interviewer
What steps have you taken to try to push that forward?
- [62:46]
Sherry Papini
Talking to lawyers, trying to find law enforcement that would even take conference with me and speak to me, trying to figure out what our options are with the statute of limitations and how to move forward with that? We're working on it.
- [62:59]
Interviewer
If there was an officer today or tomorrow who said, tell me everything we can charge James, would you want him arrested?
- [63:06]
Sherry Papini
Absolutely.
- [63:07]
Interviewer
And you would tell them everything?
- [63:08]
Sherry Papini
Absolutely.
- [63:09]
Interviewer
And what about everybody who are arguably his accomplices?
- [63:13]
Sherry Papini
Absolutely. There's real culpability in this case. Real culpability. I've demonstrated my remorse for mine. I've taken accountability for mine, and I've continued to take accountability for mine.
- [63:26]
Interviewer
There's also some questions out there, and I'm not sure if you've seen it, where people are wondering if there's any concern on your side that James may sue you for defamation or for libel, depending on what's in the book. What do you say to that?
- [63:39]
Sherry Papini
Do you have any idea how excited I would be to have him in court and what he'd have to stand up against the proof that I have of it? I frankly, I think that that would be interesting.
- [63:53]
Interviewer
It's interesting you say, what kind of proof do you have against him? Because couldn't you arguably take that Too long. I can't do myself, of course, but, I mean, that is circumstantial, because it could be argued that you inflicted those yourself if you had already once admitted that this was a hoax. Is there other proof that you could definitively take to law enforcement right now? Saying, he was my captor, he held me against my will, and here's the proof I have, or is it all circumstantial?
- [64:21]
Sherry Papini
And to be clear, the words that I signed on that plea agreement were not my words. They were constructed by the federal government. So I have never once admitted that it was a hoax kidnapping. I signed a plea agreement that was constructed by the federal government that stated what they believed happened.
- [64:44]
Interviewer
Yeah, go ahead.
- [64:45]
Producer
The evidence is very clear. And if you. If you're able to listen to the entire FBI interview, sadly, it's frankly laid out. The chain on the wall is still there. The holes where the boards were nailed up to cover, still there. All of that's still there. The cousin admits that he was there and witnessed it. The wife admits that she was there.
- [65:11]
Interviewer
Witnessed the abuse, or just the captivity.
- [65:14]
Producer
All the news coverage was saying, there's a manhunt for her. We don't know where she is. So the culpability of people not going to law enforcement saying, we know there's a manhunt, we know where she is, that in itself will certainly indicate that two other people were, you know, accomplices to this crime that was going on. But beyond the abuse that she'll be able to show, the evidence in the house was staggering.
- [65:40]
Interviewer
So I guess there's two points to that. There's the evidence that you're saying is still in the house with the chain, and which certainly would be indicative of some evidence that the police could use to then move forward with an arrest. But then the culpability aspect of it, of them witnessing you there in the house, that is a piece of it. However, if they were under the impression that he was helping you escape a dangerous marriage. And so it was more of, we don't know.
- [66:03]
Co-host
We don't believe he's hurting her.
- [66:04]
Interviewer
We think he's helping her. So we're staying quiet regardless of there's a manhunt, that's very different than them witnessing abuse or him holding you against your will. Still not okay either way. But, of course, one far more dangerous than the other.
- [66:19]
Sherry Papini
It's a complicated case, and unfortunately, because of my concealment of his identity, it's an uphill battle for me. But evidence is evidence.
- [66:31]
Interviewer
And how do you guys know that? There are still the chains and the holes and all of that to this day.
- [66:37]
Sherry Papini
That last interrogation that I had, that's what they. So they. They showed the photographs of what they found, and they showed that it was still there.
- [66:46]
Interviewer
Why do you believe he hasn't been arrested?
- [66:49]
Sherry Papini
I didn't. I mean, I didn't rat him out. I didn't tell them.
- [66:53]
Interviewer
But even now.
- [66:55]
Sherry Papini
Even now. That is an excellent question. It's an excellent question.
- [66:59]
Producer
Have you listened to the FBI interview?
- [67:01]
Interviewer
I have not. Not the whole thing.
- [67:03]
Producer
We're gonna get you the FBI interview.
- [67:04]
Interviewer
Okay, The FBI interview.
- [67:06]
Producer
I actually believed, and this is only my belief, that there was a plea deal done for him to cooperate against Sherry. Because in the interviews, it literally says, before you answer a question, let us tell you that if she wanted to be kidnapped, that's not kidnapping. If she wanted to be sexually abused, that's not sexual abuse. So tell us what happened. She wanted to be kidnapped. So there's. There is definitely a way that they fed and led him into this. But also on it, the FBI, as they walk through, they say, there's the pole that she described, exactly where she said it was. In this closet. Yes. She wanted me to put that pole up so she could be chained to it. There are holes in this wall. Who put those boards up? I put them up, but she wanted me to put them up, so everything was going back to her.
- [68:00]
Co-host
So you believe they were leading him.
- [68:02]
Interviewer
Into what to say. And to say that she was the one responsible for the idea that rather than just say, you can tell us the truth because you won't be charged if this is the truth, I believe.
- [68:12]
Producer
They should have showed up five years ago when they were first told about. When they were first informed about James. And the lack of them following up five years ago to finding semen in somebody's underwear, leading them there, not necessarily doing their due diligence on his arrest record, which you certainly can. And seeing that there is some pattern of behavior here, and a woman who is fighting desperately to get back with her children, which even fortunately, Keith Papini says how good of a mother she was in those five years to leave her kids for 22 days to be asked to be chained to a wall and abused is kind of really unfathomable.
- [68:55]
Interviewer
Do you believe that there is enough evidence out there or that you would be able to get evidence to where they would be able to arrest James and hold him accountable, aside from the circumstantial evidence?
- [69:07]
Co-host
Because at this point, I mean, it's all very compelling. Of course. But there's the argument of you willingly.
- [69:12]
Interviewer
Participated in this and did it to sell the story or to explain why you were away for three weeks versus it being real. There's not really anything to decipher it definitively one way or another.
- [69:27]
Sherry Papini
I didn't want what he did to my body. Of course, I did not consent to what he did to my body. There should be some responsibility there. And even so, you know, we hear these conspiracy charges, and we hear people that have gotten in the way of an investigation. They knew that I was there. They knew that I was there the entire time. They watched the coverage of it, and they didn't tell law enforcement. And then when they interviewed James, he lied as well, but they gave him a way out. They didn't do that when they came to me. They didn't do the same thing that they did with James. They didn't want to demonstrate any culpability themselves. They knew that James was involved early on in the investigation, and they went to Michigan instead, and they could have went to southern California, but they didn't. There's missteps in law enforcement. They don't want to show any demonstration of their missteps. And now they have this conclusion where I'm stuck. I can't show any of the missteps of law enforcement because I gave false testimony. I can't give a better testimony because I lied to law enforcement before. So they have this insurance on me now.
- [70:42]
Interviewer
Have you at all been in contact with James at all since any of this took place?
- [70:47]
Sherry Papini
No.
- [70:47]
Interviewer
No. And I guess my question, again, just kind of going back to it, is, in your opinion, do you believe that those who saw you there knew what James was doing in a more sinister way, or do you think that they believed he was helping you escape your marriage from Keith?
- [71:06]
Sherry Papini
Um, I don't know. I think they knew, in my opinion. I think they knew.
- [71:15]
Interviewer
And you think they just are not coming forward? Of course not. Because they want to protect him?
- [71:19]
Sherry Papini
Yeah, of course not. They're not going to come forward. They don't want to.
- [71:22]
Interviewer
What if there was a reward put up or if there was something raised through silent witness to where they would be? There would be an incentive. If they came forward and said, we witnessed what he did and it was against Sherri's will. Do you think that they would come forward in that case?
- [71:36]
Sherry Papini
I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.
- [71:43]
Interviewer
It looked like you wanted to say something. Is there something?
- [71:45]
Producer
I heard a private investigator. Private investigator went to Interview both of them. None of them cracked. I think that it's a little bit deeper. I think that if you're held to protect you from your husband, you don't need to be drugged 24 hours a day. You don't need to be chained. You don't need to have somebody watching you, watching them. When James leaves to go to work, if that person is willing to stay there on their own, it wouldn't be.
- [72:13]
Interviewer
And who was it that watched you when he went to work?
- [72:16]
Sherry Papini
He had an uncle and a cousin.
- [72:18]
Interviewer
And were they there the whole time or they would just pop in intermittently?
- [72:22]
Sherry Papini
They weren't in his home. They had their own homes.
- [72:24]
Interviewer
Oh, so they would just watch the home? They didn't go and, like, sit in the room with you and watch you? No. Okay. Now, you have said that James used to watch your interviews, that he had said he'd be watching your interrogation, and that that played a big role in your lies because you were scared of telling the truth, and you obviously didn't want to alert him or have him in a position of retaliating. So what makes you so confident to speak now versus then? Because then you had. You had law enforcement's protection, arguably the FBI's protection. Now you don't, because you've signed away those rights. So what makes you so confident in speaking against him now and telling your truth?
- [73:02]
Sherry Papini
I'm not afraid anymore. Simple as that. I'm not afraid anymore.
- [73:06]
Interviewer
What makes you not afraid of him?
- [73:10]
Sherry Papini
There is a lot of eyes on me at every moment. I'm also still on probation, so I'm. I'm observed constantly. And if something happens to me, everyone's gonna see it.
- [73:25]
Interviewer
Since you've started speaking out, have there been any anonymous or idle threats at all that have come your way that you believe could be from James or from somebody else?
- [73:36]
Sherry Papini
Not particularly. Little drama here and there, but like what? Little sneers? Little people try to send, you know, little things here and there. But no. I got some weird things when I was in prison as well.
- [73:50]
Interviewer
But no, but nothing from James to where he's trying to say, you know, stay quiet or.
- [73:56]
Sherry Papini
I think he's afraid to. If I was in James position, I would be terrified.
- [74:03]
Co-host
And you say that you think he's.
- [74:05]
Interviewer
Afraid that now that the truth is out there, that he will be held accountable?
- [74:09]
Sherry Papini
I hope so.
- [74:10]
Interviewer
And what about his family?
- [74:13]
Sherry Papini
I hope so.
- [74:22]
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- [75:36]
Interviewer
I want to touch on the story, the version of the story of two Hispanic women abducting you. That of course has been a very big point of contention out there. And I've heard where you have shared that it was you were breadcrumbing, trying to get them to look in James direction and hopefully getting to him at the end result of that. But what do you say to people who are suggesting that there's when you would see Hispanic women after the abduction, that you would be triggered in public, that you would be anxious and have a breakdown. What do you say to the people who suggest that that's either faking trauma or that there is racial undertones through that?
- [76:17]
Sherry Papini
Well, if I were to tell you that my abductors were Hispanic, that would be something that I, you know, it led the breadcrumb. So let's kind of break that down a little bit. Right. So I did that sketch. I didn't know that James mom was Irish. I was just trying to lead them to James ethnicity, not necessarily his mom's. Right. So I'm making a sketch and I'm telling you it was Hispanic women. This is what they look like. Now if I see someone that looks like his mother, you would say that it would trigger me knowing that she was there and knowing that she was a part of it. If someone looked like James, it would trigger me. If someone looked like anyone else that was there, it would trigger me. It's not necessarily a Hispanic woman. It was a character that was there, a person that was there. If it looked like it, it would trigger me. So if I told you that story and you Described it, you would then say, oh, Sherry's triggered by a Hispanic woman because it resembled James Mother. It's because I made the attachment to it of saying that they were Hispanic, trying so desperately to lead them to James Reyes, that everyone is attached to that particular detail. For me, anyone that looks like anyone that was involved is super triggering. I'm not triggered by Hispanic people or Hispanic women. It's simply that they looked like the people that were there. It's simply anything that happens that is in relation to there is still very triggering. It's not a race. It's never been about race for me. But how would you describe that? As an onlooker, knowing that it's something that was part of that sketch? So it's complicated and it's complex, but that's the best way that I can explain it to you.
- [77:57]
Interviewer
Was there anything else that you breadcrumbed, whether it be a description of the vehicle or a description of. Aside from the drugging, was there anything else that you tried to share with them, aside from the story of the two Hispanic women, to try to get them to look into James?
- [78:19]
Sherry Papini
I'm sure there was. I can't recall. I'm sure there was.
- [78:32]
Interviewer
And are you worried. You said you're not worried about any sort of defamation claims from anyone that you're implicating. Correct? Not just James. Do you think the mother, the cousin's wife, anybody would potentially.
- [78:45]
Sherry Papini
They've already said that they were there. I mean, what I come forward and say out in the public, it's things that can be backed up. So I've learned the really, really hard way that from here on out, anything I say has to be backed up. So whatever I choose to share with you or don't share with you, it's based on that. If I say something, it means that I have the evidence to back it up. And if I'm sharing anything on podcasts or in my book or in any facet of my life, now, I can back it up.
- [79:17]
Interviewer
Are you nervous for any sort of retaliation in any form from anyone now that you're publicly speaking out? No.
- [79:26]
Sherry Papini
Everyone has a right to their opinion, and that's okay. But I've learned the hard way, everything that comes out of my mouth has to be backed up with evidence. And it is, and it does.
- [79:34]
Interviewer
What has been the response from the public towards you since this docu series has come out?
- [79:41]
Sherry Papini
They're really kind.
- [79:42]
Co-host
Do you think.
- [79:43]
Interviewer
Would you say that the majority of the public now believes this new perspective and this new version of what happened? Or do you think there's still people out there who question the authenticity of it?
- [79:54]
Sherry Papini
I mean, I got my nails done before I came down here and got a hug from someone in the nail salon. So, no, people have been very kind. They've been curious. You know, my mom and dad get approached by people a lot more, and just like you, they're really curious. They have some other questions about things. But no, they've been really receptive and really kind. A lot of people are really just heartbroken about the kids.
- [80:21]
Interviewer
For the people who maybe are not believing the news story and believe this was a hoax, that they got it right years ago, that, you know, now the story's changing. I've seen online that there's some allegations that you're coming across as perhaps performative or narcissistic even, and that this is all in an effort to regain custody or to promote the book and to have money or because you now that the attention has died down, years later, you miss that kind of attention, what would you say to them?
- [80:51]
Sherry Papini
I've never been diagnosed as a narcissist, and I've had psych eval after psych eval after psych eval. That's not part of my. My profile. This is my opportunity to be able to say my side of the story. Since everything everyone else has said their side of the story, there has been film after film after article after article ran without me exploiting me. The industry has made millions and millions and millions of dollars off of me. I have not. I've written a book so that I have the freedom to tell my side of the story and use my voice that everyone else has used. For goodness sakes, in Keith's film. They AI my voice and make me read something that I didn't even write. This is about reclaiming me. That's why the book is titled Cherry Papini doesn't exist. That Internet version of me is not me. This is about reclaiming my life and my voice and my ability to do that. In terms of being diagnosed as a narcissist, that is not anywhere in my profile.
- [81:53]
Interviewer
Is there anything that you are comfortable sharing about what's in your profile from all the different psyche?
- [81:58]
Sherry Papini
Yeah. So I have. You know, we have mental illness, which has a permanence to it, and then we have personality disorders, and that's based on defense structures, and it's about how we choose to live our lives. I've dismantled the majority of my personality disorder. I'm still working on it because it's Defense. And when we get wrapped up in defenses, they're there for a reason and we still dip in and out of them. But I suffer mostly from what's called self defeating personality disorder. It's like people pleasing. It's someone that would rather be incredibly uncomfortable than allow the discomfort of others.
- [82:35]
Interviewer
And you said you're actively working through that and you've dismantled a lot of it at the moment.
- [82:40]
Sherry Papini
Yeah, it still exists. I still have defenses. We all do. But it's something that I manage regularly in therapy.
- [82:48]
Interviewer
Do you believe that your actions or signing that plea agreement has caused harm to any survivors of abductions and domestic violence? Say that again through signing the plea agreement and signing away, that that was a hoax, that you're. Whether it was their version of events or yours, do you think that that caused any real harm to survivors of abductions and domestic violence by saying that it was a hoax and making people question other people who have gone through a very real experience?
- [83:18]
Sherry Papini
No, I think that that's been going on for a very long time and it's very complicated. And I think that the way law enforcement interrogates people should change. And I think that their interrogation style, most particularly people that are survivors of domestic abuse, should change. I think they missed a very big portion of my case and especially the lead FBI agent. She doesn't have children, she's not married, and she missed that. She missed the big part of my case where I'm in a very abusive, in my opinion, highly toxic marriage. You know, we missed that. And I think that my case, it touches on things that have already been in existence.
- [84:01]
Interviewer
I guess my question is, for example, Elizabeth Smart, we know that she was abducted when she was younger and she was held captive and is a survivor of that. So do you think by you signing away on this plea agreement and acknowledging that it was a hoax, that it wasn't a real abduction, that then it's opening a door for opportunity for people to not believe others when they are really abducted?
- [84:23]
Sherry Papini
No.
- [84:24]
Interviewer
Thinking that they could potentially be lying about it and putting into question other people who come forward with similar stories or just within the same vein?
- [84:35]
Sherry Papini
No, I don't think so.
- [84:36]
Interviewer
Okay. Now for your kids, just I don't want to touch too much on them because I believe that they should be kept separate from this and private. But is there any concern that when they're older and they watch some of this back or they Google things that they're going to either not believe you or that they're going to have questions and if they don't believe you wonder why you willingly left for three weeks and allowed them to think that you were in danger, why that was maybe more important than being with them. If they don't believe that this is.
- [85:08]
Sherry Papini
True, I can say wholeheartedly, my children will never believe that I left them on purpose, ever.
- [85:15]
Interviewer
Okay.
- [85:16]
Sherry Papini
You know, I've always left an environment welcome and open and unconditionally love my children. And if they have questions about it when they're at an appropriate age, of course I'm gonna explore that. And of course. Of course I'm going to answer any of their questions. And anything that they feel is, of course, opened and welcomed.
- [85:32]
Interviewer
Do you think that they have. Even if they're not asking them at the moment now because you aren't having a lot of contact with them, do you think that Keith is putting anything in their head and that they do have questions and they just haven't asked yet?
- [85:45]
Sherry Papini
Well, my kids are at the age where technology is everywhere, so it's likely that they've seen portions of it. It's likely that at school they've talked about it. They're kids, you know.
- [85:55]
Interviewer
Have you had any conversations with them about it?
- [85:57]
Sherry Papini
No, I don't bring it up. My children are welcome to bring it up with me at any moment, but we don't focus on that. We focus on what little time we get together. And we're not. We don't talk about that. We talk about glitter and boys and shoes and clothes. You know, it's a very. It's a loving, wonderful, normal environment, and I look forward to spending more time and opening the door and allowing that engagement with them when they come to me. And I look forward to having a therapist present so we can start working on that together as a family. And I welcome that engagement with Keith as well.
- [86:37]
Interviewer
For those who have seen the docu series or for those who have heard that you've written a book, what other information about this would you like to share? Would you. Do you want them to know that maybe was left out of the docu series that you haven't been vocal about? Especially for people who may still question the authenticity of everything.
- [87:00]
Sherry Papini
The book really gets down to what I didn't get to go into too much in the documentary. The documentary was incredible, and the process was excruciating. And when you watch it, you see me go from very composed to getting more and more frustrated and more and more frustrated towards the end because it was incredibly grueling and very excruciating. The book, though, I have this Ability to be able to talk about what everything felt like, why I came to the choices that I came to, how I came to the choices that I came to, my early childhood that developed the personality that I have as well. Because I think there's still a lot of curiosity around that. Because what happened to me is preventable. What happened to me is something that I still struggle with today. And I'm doing everything that I can to unravel everything that happens still.
- [88:07]
Interviewer
So to everybody listening, who may still have questions or speculations and just, you know, some doubt, if I were to just ask you a series of questions, how would you respond if I say, did you consent to getting in the car with James that day?
- [88:24]
Sherry Papini
I wish I remembered.
- [88:26]
Interviewer
Did you consent to any of the branding?
- [88:29]
Sherry Papini
No.
- [88:30]
Interviewer
Did you consent to any of the physical abuse?
- [88:32]
Sherry Papini
No.
- [88:33]
Interviewer
Did you consent to being away for three weeks?
- [88:35]
Sherry Papini
No.
- [88:36]
Interviewer
Did you craft the story with James for your return home?
- [88:41]
Sherry Papini
No.
- [88:42]
Interviewer
Is there anything else you want them to know?
- [88:56]
Sherry Papini
I don't think so.
- [88:57]
Interviewer
Okay. Okay. Well, thank you for joining. I appreciate. I know some of these questions were difficult, and I appreciate you. I appreciate you. Appreciate you answering them. Thank you. Okay, so can you share about your book where people can pick that up, what it's called, what it's about?
- [89:13]
Sherry Papini
So the book is titled Sherry Papini Doesn't Exist. And you can Purchase it on sherrypappinibook.com you can go to Amazon. On Amazon, there is a few books that have written about me, exploitative pieces that people have just kind of punched at. This is written by me. Okay. SherryPapiniBook.com is probably the best place to get it because it's direct links for it.
- [89:38]
Interviewer
I do have one last question for you. Why do you still use the last name Papini if you had such a horrible history with Keith and you're rebranding and reintroducing yourself?
- [89:50]
Sherry Papini
It's about to change.
- [89:51]
Interviewer
Okay. All right. Well, thank you so much.
- [89:53]
Sherry Papini
Yeah.
- [89:54]
Co-host
Okay, so during that interview, you heard a male voice a little bit, and I apologize. He wasn't right next to me to a mic, so it might have been a bit difficult to pick up it at times, but we did our best to amplify it. That is Sherry's producer who sat in on the interview and wanted to share some answers and some questions and, you know, some context as we went along. Now, after the interview, once I stopped recording, the conversation continued a little bit. I wasn't expecting it to, otherwise I definitely would have kept recording. But in that conversation, they both were Just sharing with me that they are potentially planning to go after her ex, James Reyes, civilly and bring a civil suit against him. They're just trying to find the means to do that. They're also trying to figure out how they would win that, things like that. They also talked more about the custody arrangement and in their opinion, they believe there is parental alienation happening on key that Keith is driving that her ex husband. And the reason they said that is because her son, for example, who is not participating in any of these scheduled visitations, he's nine years old and he is apparently using very big grown up words like manipulative and things like that to where they're like, what nine year old would know that word? He's obviously being coached by Keith. They believe that when they do have phone calls between, when she does have phone calls between herself and the children, that Keith is nearby either coaching them or intimidating them on what to or what not to say. So they really do believe that there is a lot of parental alienation at play. While Keith, of course apparently is going against court order saying he's never going to split 50, 50 custody because he's saying, you know, I don't want her around my kids. She's dangerous, she's unpredictable, she's unfit. So I come back with a question to you. What do you guys believe? Has hearing Today's interviewed at all skewed your opinion of Sheri? Do you believe she's being truthful? Do you believe that this abduction was real or do you believe that she's lying and that it still was a hoax? I talked with her a little bit too after we stopped recording about the civil suit and about defamation. And if she's worried, and I know I asked this in the episode, but I asked it again, you know, are you worried that any of these people that you're implicating could potentially go after you for defamation or libel because of the book? To which she said, and I thought was very interesting, she said, yeah, but that's also why I'm so careful with my words. And she said, I know what happened, I can share what happened, but I'm also careful with how I say it, which we all know the truth is, the truth is the truth. You wouldn't necessarily need to be very careful with your words, in my opinion, if you're telling the truth. Then again, perhaps maybe you are because maybe you don't want to even allude to something that's not true. I don't know. But there doesn't seem to be A real fear around any defamation claims. But I think that's kind of where you can get into this argument for both sides. Right. Is he not pursuing James being the. He. Is he not pursuing defamation or potentially wouldn't, because he really did do this to her and he doesn't want the spotlight or attention on him. He doesn't want to even open that can of worms. Or is it because he was complicit in this, he helped her stage this abduction and he kind of got off scot free as the guy who was helping her and the guy who just went along with this while she was the mastermind behind it. So he doesn't want to get implicated in the hoax of it all. I think both sides of it could be true. Right. So it really just comes down to public opinion. And when I pushed back a little and asked her too, like, what evidence do you have that this is real besides circumstantial evidence? She of course mentioned the burn marks, the abuse, things like that. But again, is that concrete evidence? No, because he and you at one point easily could have said and did argue that you participated in those acts, that they were consensual even, that it was your idea to, you know, quote, sell the lie. So I don't think that that's hard evidence or proof. And that's really tough. Right, because then how do you prove it did or didn't happen? I don't know that we ever will know the truth. I still in my gut do think that there is more to this in the sense that I don't think she's being entirely honest, not only with me, but also with herself. Perhaps she did mention the. The personality disorder. But I understand being intimidated and signing things away with the FBI and signing a plea agreement saying that you lied to a federal officer. But there's something about the fact that so many other people were aware that she was at his house and that she was with him and didn't say anything despite it being all over the news. And I, and this is just my opinion, I could be totally wrong. So please don't let my opinion influence you. But I believe that more so is rooted in people thinking that James was helping her escape what he was told was a dangerous marriage. So they all knew that she was there. Perhaps. But they all perhaps thought that he was helping her escape something, if that makes sense. And maybe he even thought that as well. I don't know. I don't know. There are a lot of questions I still have, so let me know what you guys think. I'm curious to know what you think. Let me know in the comments below. Other than that, that is the last time I think we will ever visit Papini Island. But let me know what you guys think. And thank you for tuning in to today's episode. All right, I will be back on the mic with you very, very soon with more of what's going on this week in the true crime world and more deep dives into other cases. So until the next one, be nice, don't kill people, don't abduct anyone, don't stage any abductions, and just be a good human.
- [95:32]
Interviewer
Okay, Bye.