314: Tropical Vacation Turned Deadly: The Mysterious Disappearance of Robyn Gardner

Summary

Serialously with Annie Elise

Episode 314: Tropical Vacation Turned Deadly — The Mysterious Disappearance of Robyn Gardner

Date: September 1, 2025
Host: Annie Elise

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Overview

In this episode, Annie Elise dives into the 2011 disappearance of 35-year-old Robyn Gardner, an American woman who went missing during a tropical vacation in Aruba. Taking her trademark “best friend” storytelling approach, Annie explores not only the mysterious circumstances around Robyn’s vanishing alongside travel companion Gary Giordano, but also the many unresolved questions, abundant red flags, and controversial personalities involved in the case. The episode provides an in-depth look at the backgrounds, relationships, investigation, key evidence, and the enduring suspicion that this was no simple accident.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Who Was Robyn Gardner? (05:55–13:01)

• Background:
  • Robyn, described as “absolutely stunning” (05:55), was a Maryland native, former model, and dental assistant.
  • Portrayed as a warm, upbeat free spirit who sometimes "gave people more chances than they really deserved" (06:52).
  • Recently divorced (married 1998, separated after a decade), lived with best friend Christina Jones and her two cats.
• Personal Life:
  • Began a cautious new relationship with Richard Forrester ("if you see a future...maybe just move in together" 07:41), but was taking things slow.
  • Planned a solo vacation to Florida according to Richard, but her actual destination was Aruba.

2. The Secret Aruba Trip & Gary Giordano (13:01–16:00, 26:16–28:20)

• Travel Concealment:
  • Robyn lied to her boyfriend Richard, claiming she was visiting her parents in Florida while actually going to Aruba with Gary Giordano.
• Who is Gary?
  • Gary, 50, met Robyn online (likely on a dating or "swingers" site).
  • Their relationship was ambiguous. Christina (Robyn’s roommate) insisted it was platonic, but evidence and Gary’s behavior suggested otherwise.
• Red Flag: Persistent invitations from Gary; reluctance on Robyn's part finally worn down, possibly motivated by her financial struggles after losing her job (13:53).

3. Timeline of Disappearance (16:00–36:56)

• Critical Day - August 2, 2011:
  • Robyn and Gary dined at Rum Reef Bar & Grill, where witnesses described Robyn as “woozy” and potentially “heavily intoxicated” (26:16).
  • She was “all dressed up” for dinner, which contradicted the idea that she’d go snorkeling afterward.
  • Witnesses saw the pair at the beach but “never swam, never got into the water” (28:25); they only walked along the shoreline.
• Gary’s Account:
  • Claimed a strong current swept Robyn away while snorkeling.
  • Staff who interacted with him reported he was “calm, almost emotionless,” when asking for police help (14:00).
  • His story “did not match up” with conditions that day, as currents were documented as being mild (26:01).
  • Security cam footage later emerged of Gary and Robyn in a heated argument prior to her disappearance, with Gary grabbing her by the throat (38:20).

4. Investigation & Red Flags (26:16–38:20)

• Inconsistencies:
  • Timeline gaps of almost two hours with no clear whereabouts for Robyn and Gary.
  • Gary’s appearance when reporting Robyn missing was contradictory—wet shoes, but dry swim trunks and toupee, and he was wearing socks and sneakers (30:30).
  • No trace of snorkeling equipment despite Gary’s claims (33:10).
• Evidence Mounts:
  • Security footage showed physical violence.
  • Investigation revealed Gary’s history: jealousy, violence, stalking (with bizarre “deer costume” incident), and non-consensual sex tapes (42:00–47:00).
• Witness Testimony:
  • Christina Jones (roommate) and Richard Forrester (boyfriend) both affirm Robyn would not have gone snorkeling drunk or while done up for dinner (54:33).
  • Both were blindsided by her trip with Gary.

5. “Motive?” Insurance Policy & Attempt to Collect (61:34–64:41)

• Insurance Policy:
  • Days before the trip, Gary took out a travel (possibly life) insurance policy for more than $1.5 million on Robyn, naming himself as beneficiary.
  • Annie: “I had no clue you could just take a life insurance policy out on someone unbeknownst to them…” (61:39).
  • Gary was “almost giddy” when talking with the insurance company to inquire about collecting so soon after Robyn’s vanishing, raising suspicions and a tip-off to police.

6. Legal Outcome & Aftermath (64:41–74:59)

• Gary’s Arrest and Release:
  • Aruban police arrested Gary just as he was attempting to leave the country, holding him 116 days—no charges filed due to lack of evidence (no body, no murder weapon, no DNA) (65:46).
  • “You can't just arrest people off suspicion alone and then keep them in jail forever…” (65:30).
  • Upon release, Gary returned to the US, hired attorney Jose Baez (Casey Anthony’s lawyer), and gave multiple media interviews defending himself.
• Public Perception:
  • Gary tried (and failed) to sue for insurance payout.
  • Continued legal troubles (indecent exposure arrest but nothing related to Robyn's disappearance).
• Ongoing Mystery:
  • Annie observes that more than a decade later, Robyn’s body has never been found. She remains legally “missing,” despite being presumed dead.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Gary’s Calmness After Robyn Disappeared:
  “If you were with your friend… and you notice that they’re not with you or behind you… how are you not panicked? How are you calm? I would be freaking out completely, but maybe that’s just me.”
  — Annie Elise (18:46)

• On the Insurance Policy Motive:
  “Gary took out a policy on Robin to the tune of $1.5 million…you could just like, be walking around, be like, you know what? I’m gonna take a life insurance policy out on [someone].”
  — Annie Elise (61:39)

• On Gary’s Jealousy and Stalking:
  “…She once caught him hiding in the woods in a motherf***ing deer costume just to watch her. This guy didn’t just go in the woods with binoculars and camo…This guy wore a deer costume…that just tells you how deranged and scary this individual was…”
  — Annie Elise (43:25)

• From Robyn’s Roommate Christina Jones:
  “He was texting her while we were at breakfast. Very angry…his responses by text…were aggressive, harmful, something that doesn’t sit right within myself.”
  — Christina Jones (51:25)

• Richard Forrester on Robyn Snorkeling:
  "She's too concerned about her hair, about her makeup…she's never been a fan of snorkeling…She is a swimmer, but would prefer to be in a swimming pool."
  — Richard Forrester (54:33)

• On the Lack of Resolution:
  “…it's looking more and more like this case may never be solved. But I want to hear your thoughts and theories on this case.”
  — Annie Elise (73:39)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Segment | Timestamp | |-----------------------------------------------|-------------| | Initial context & Robyn’s background | 05:55–09:49 | | The secret Aruba trip with Gary | 13:01–16:00 | | Disappearance – The evening at Rum Reef | 16:00–26:16 | | Police investigation & eyewitness accounts | 26:16–36:56 | | Security footage of physical altercation | 38:20–42:00 | | Pattern of Gary’s violent, jealous behavior | 42:00–47:43 | | Testimony from roommate & boyfriend | 47:43–56:17 | | Insurance investigation & Gary’s arrest | 61:34–65:46 | | Legal aftermath and current status | 65:46–74:59 | | Annie’s closing remarks and call for theories | 73:39–74:59 |

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Additional Noteworthy Details

• Security Camera Evidence: The footage showing Gary grabbing Robyn by the throat, then shoving her into an elevator immediately after the suspected “accident” window, was critical and cast massive doubt on his story.
• Disappearance Theories: Annie discusses both accidental drowning and murder-for-insurance themes, but leans toward suspecting Gary based on his pattern of behavior and the circumstantial evidence.
• Lawsuit Fallout: Gary’s attempt to collect insurance was denied, and his subsequent lawsuit was dismissed.
• Media Frenzy: The case drew significant media attention, with Gary appearing on Dr. Phil and engaging in a public relations blitz to plead his innocence.

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Closing Thoughts

Annie invites listeners to share their thoughts on the case. She concludes, with typical wry humor, “Maybe don’t go on any cruises with anyone you meet online…don’t go snorkeling. Maybe that’s the big takeaway. I don’t know. I hate snorkeling. It freaks me out.” (74:59)

For more insights and to join the discussion, Annie encourages listener engagement across Spotify, Apple, and YouTube.

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End of Summary

Transcript

[Annie Elise]

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[Interviewer/Reporter]

Gary Giordano arrested for the suspected murder.

[Annie Elise]

Robin Gardner.

[Gary Giordano]

A 35 year old Maryland.

[Interviewer/Reporter]

Woman now presumed dead.

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The American tourist who vanished in Aruba more than a month ago.

[Annie Elise]

Why was Robin, who hated to swim.

[Interviewer/Reporter]

Snorkeling with Gary Giordano the day she disappeared?

[Annie Elise]

50 year old Giordano says it all began as a snorkeling trip in Aruba.

[Interviewer/Reporter]

I feel in my heart that, that something happened at this person's hand.

[Gary Giordano]

We weren't drinking heavily. She was walking, I was walking. We were a sober couple.

[Interviewer/Reporter]

Where's Robin? Where is she? You know you were the last one to see her. Where'd she go?

[Annie Elise]

Hey, true crime besties. Welcome back to an all new episode of Serial asleep.

[Gary Giordano]

What happened August 2nd that day with Robin Gardner.

[Interviewer/Reporter]

Where's Robin? Where is she? You know you were the last one to see her. Where'd she go?

[Gary Giordano]

She's missing and two days later you're inquiring about, you're not trying to collect, but you're inquiring, why would you do that?

[Interviewer/Reporter]

And she's still missing.

[Annie Elise]

Aruba, a tropical escape known for its white sandy beaches and crystal clear waters. The kind of place where people go to unwind, reset and forget about their problems. But in the summer of 2011, that dream was shattered for 35 year old Robyn Gardner. Now, Robyn was on vacation in Aruba, but she wasn't alone. She was with a man that she had told her boyfriend was just a friend. But when the investigators started digging into her travel companion's story and also his past, was this really a tragic accident? Or were they looking at the carefully covered tracks of something far more sinister? Good morning and welcome back to an all new episode of Serial Lessly. I am your host, Annie Elise. Today's case is mysterious. It is frustrating. It is just full of red flags all over the place. I mean, too many to count. A woman goes missing on this picture perfect island and the only person with her at the time was a man with a history a long History at that of jealousy, violence, and a very suspiciously timed insurance policy that was in Robyn's name. This is the story of Robyn Gardner and the many, many questions that still remain more than a decade later. So let's get into it. In 2011, Robyn Gardner was 35 years old. And to put it simply, she was absolutely stunning. She had this long beach blonde hair, glowing tan skin, a picture perfect smile that truly lit up every single photo. As cliche as that sounds, I know that that's like everybody's go to description, but if you didn't know anything about her and you just saw a picture of her, you might assume that she's a model. She was just beautiful, stunning, would glow. In fact, she even had worked as a model in the past. It wasn't her main job, it was more of like this side hustle type of a thing. But still, she was beautiful and she knew it. But beyond her appearance, Robyn was really just a regular girl. She grew up in Maryland with her parents and her two siblings. And those who knew her best described her as just being a free spirit through and through. She had a very strong sense of self, the kind of person who knew what she wanted and was not afraid to go after it. Now, that doesn't mean that she was pushy or confrontational. In fact, it was quite the opposite. Friends and family say that she was very warm, very upbeat, always tried to see the best in people. She had a big heart. And because of that, she unfortunately sometimes gave people more chances than they really deserved, which we'll get into that part of the story a little bit later. But for now, everything that you need to know is that as a young adult, Robin was living life was beautiful, was well liked by everyone, and that is when she met a man named Kenneth Gardner. So they met, they fell head over heels in love with each other, and they eventually got married in 1998. And they stayed together for about a decade, but for whatever reason, it didn't work out and they made the decision to go their separate ways. Now, the good thing is they didn't have any kids together. So the split, I don't know, it was pretty simple, pretty straightforward, right? There was no custody arrangements to work out, no child support involved, nothing that would make it super toxic or, you know, hostile. So the only issue that there really was was now that Robyn wasn't going to be living with her ex husband, she needed somewhere to stay, she needed to move somewhere else. So she ended up moving into an apartment with her two cats, Kobe and Toonsy. And her best friend, Christina Jones. Robyn took some time too to just be on her own and get over the divorce, kind of figure out who she was as a single person, get back on her feet a bit. So she spent a lot of time on her own, figuring out what she wanted to do next. She of course also spent time with her cats who were basically like her children, which I think a lot of people can relate to. In her down time, she watched a lot of reality tv. And for work she worked as a dental assistant. And sure enough, as she was kind of on this path to self discovery and on this new journey as a single woman, before you know it, she met someone and he was new. She was ready to give love another shot. She was optimistic. And this guy's name was Richard Forrester. Now, even though there was a clear attraction, Robin and Richard decided they wanted to take things slow at first. And that made sense. She had just come out of a 10 year marriage. It wasn't like she was going to jump head over heels into something new. But she still really cared about him and he cared about her. And look, when I say slow, I mean it. Even after two and a half years of being together, they still were living separately. Sure, they spent most nights together either at her apartment or his, but technically they still had their own homes and their own addresses. But eventually all of that did start to feel, I don't know if I want to say, ridiculous, but a little unnecessary. I mean, if you're spending every night together anyway, all, why not just live together so that you don't have two rent or mortgage payments, right? It just seems at that point, if you see a future, maybe just move in together. And that's what they were thinking too. So they made the decision to start looking for a place to live together. There was even some talk of marriage down the line. I mean, now things were getting serious. At least that's how it seemed. But by late July of 2011, Robin and Richard still had not found their forever home yet. That day they were just hanging out at Richard's place, kind of making it a pretty typical day for the two of them. But then something happened that wasn't so typical. They had a huge fight. And I don't know exactly what this argument was about, but I do know something that may or may not be related to that argument. See, at some point that same day, Robyn had told Richard that she was planning a trip, a vacation for herself. She said that she was going to be heading to Florida at the end of the month. Specifically on the 31st, which was just a few days away. And her plan was to travel solo and then meet up with her parents, who also had a place down there. Now, apparently, this was something that she did pretty often, too, so it's not like it was out of the ordinary, which is kind of why I said, I don't know if that's what the argument was about or if that's something completely unrelated to the argument, but it was something that was a topic of discussion that very day. Now, what I do know about that argument is that it got awkward, and it got bad enough between the two of them that Robin decided she needed to leave. She needed to have some space away from Richard. And so the plan was for the two of them to just have some time to cool down, to reset, be in their own spaces, then come back, talk things over, work things out like adults. Then a few days later, it was July 31, and Robyn was headed off to Florida, just as she had planned. But here is where things get a little strange, because Robyn did go to Florida, which is what she was planning to do, but it wasn't to visit her parents. Like she had said. Florida was actually just a layover in her big grand scheme of things. Her real destination was Aruba. And I'm sure most of you are familiar with Aruba or have at least heard of it, but it's this picture perfect island that's known for its turquoise waters, the white sandy beaches, just this. These luxury resorts that feel all inclusive, most of them that feel really nice, really upscale, almost like you're in a movie or even an episode of White Lotus, you know, just very luxe and very beachy. So it's really not that difficult to understand or imagine why Robin would want to go to Aruba. I feel like anybody would. I mean, who wouldn't want to take a vacation there, right? But it was weird that she lied to Richard about it. Her partner of a year, somebody she had talked marriage with. They were going to be moving in together. And she completely lied to him, saying she was only going to Florida to see her parents. And there was also something else very, very weird about this secret vacation. She didn't go alone. Instead, she was traveling with a man named Gary Giordano.

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[Annie Elise]

So Robyn is now on this secret vacation that she got to Florida, then went over straight to Aruba with this travel companion, Gary, who's not her boyfriend, her boyfriend of years. And Gary was 50 years old at the time. And remember at this time Robyn was only 35 years old, which look, that's not a gigantic age gap, but it's definitely different than what she typically had gone for in the past and even the age gap between her and Richard. So who was this guy and why was he suddenly on vacation with Robyn? Well, Gary and Robin had met online about a year prior. I'm not sure which website they used to meet, though. The information that was online was pretty conflicting. Some sites said that it was match.com. another said that it was a swingers site called Adult Friend Finder. So I'm not sure now, regardless what the site was that she connected with Gary on. I'm sure you're already connecting the dots, right? Robin had been with Richard for over two years at this point. So she was very much in a relationship with somebody when she started talking to Gary online. I don't know if she was in a relationship when she first created the account or if maybe that's just when the conversation started and it was an old account. But, you know, some red flag behavior on Robin's part, if I'm being honest. Now, as for what kind of relationship Robin and Gary actually had, at this point, that part is a little bit unclear, pretty murky. Were they friends? Were they something more? It's hard to say for sure. But I will say that according to Robyn's very close friend and roommate, Christina, the dynamic was strictly platonic, at least on Robyn's end. She said that Robyn had turned Gary down multiple times before. In fact, this Aruba trip was the first time that she had ever said yes to him. And look, I understand people have platonic relationships with the opposite gender. It happens all the time. But regardless of where they met online or what kind of relationship they had, I think it should be said that either of those websites is still a dating or intimate type relationship site, not one that you would go to, like, say, I don't know, what is it called? Like, Bumble Friends or Bumble bff, where you just network and meet friends in the area. These sites were built on a foundation of either sexual intimacy or romantic relationships, not where you would just go to meet a friend. So I understand why maybe Gary had this impression that things were going to be more serious, perhaps. And why, as her roommate stated, she kept turning him down because he's like, hello, we met on this site. What do you mean? But I digress. I'm just kind of like laying a little bit of the foundation for you. Especially because I would imagine that if Gary had been signed up and created an account on those sites, that he was probably looking for more than just a platonic relationship. And look, maybe Robin was as well. And perhaps her roommate and friend Christina just wanted to defend Robin in that. Defend her for potentially cheating on her boyfriend. Or maybe she knew of some sort of alternative reason that Robin had for being on that site, which we will get into here shortly, which you might also be wondering, okay, well, if Robyn didn't even like this guy and she wasn't interested in anything romantic or sexual with him, why the heck would she go on vacation with him? Well, apparently Gary was asking Robin to travel with him all the time, and he was always talking like this was something that they could do as just friends, that it didn't need to be anything more than that. No funny business. It could be casual. But Robyn kept turning him down, yet he kept asking her again and again. And apparently his persistence did start to come across like he was hoping for more than just a friend's relationship or a friend's trip between the two of them. So the thought is that eventually all of these constant invitations and requests were just starting to wear Robin down. And on top of that, maybe she just wanted to get away from it all. She did have that argument with Richard. So maybe she just wanted to take a little break from her life. A little pause, a little reset. So whatever the reason was, eventually she did give in and she said yes. And I do want to take a second here just to talk a little bit more about why Robyn may have felt like she needed to take a break from her life at that time, because it wasn't just her relationship with Richard. The truth is, she was going through a pretty rough patch. She had recently been laid off from her job as the dental assistant. So because of that, of course, money was very tight. Her days also lacked the structure that she was used to. Her ex husband was also at the time trying to renegotiate their alimony agreement, which had originally included $2,000 a month for 36 months, plus two lump sum payments of $15,000. Now, that agreement had already run its course at this point, obviously. So with no income, I think it's safe to say that Robyn might have been feeling the financial pressure in all of this. So one theory is that maybe she saw Gary as someone who could help her, help her financially, maybe even a sugar daddy type scenario. I mean, we know that Gary seemed to be more interested in her than she was in his. And if that were true, it could definitely explain why Christina was so insistent that Robyn wasn't interested in Gary romantically. Again, that's just speculation, but possible. Christina never confirmed or denied it, which is understandable, considering she'd probably want to protect her friend's image. But it was one of the theories out there. So whether money played a role in all of this or not, one thing is Robyn was ready for a break. And when she and Gary landed in Aruba, they dove into vacation mode almost immediately. They were staying at this really beautiful, very nice hotel right close to the water. So because of that, they spent a lot of time at the beach. But during the trip, they also went out, they explored the town, they went to the local casino, they went to bars, they went to restaurants. I mean, you name it, they were just really taking in all of the different things that Aruba had to offer. They were even taking photos together where they looked so happy, which I have to say was an odd move for a couple or a pair who were maybe cheating with one another. I mean, assuming you believe that that's what's going on, that they there was some sort of romantic dynamic between the two, of sexual dynamic, because I don't know, would you really document this trip if it was something that you were trying to hide? I don't know. So I don't know if the two of them hooked up or if they really were just vacationing as friends. But it was clear enough that as the trip went on, Robyn was thinking about Richard. Her mind was going right back home to the person that she had been with for years and the person she was planning a future with. So much so that two days after her arrival in Aruba, she messaged him on Facebook saying, I love you, I care about you. We'll sort this out when I get back. Now, to me, based on the tone of Robin's Facebook message to Richard, it does seem like maybe there was still some lingering tension between the two of them after their fight, right? Mentioning we'll sort it all out when I'm back. To me, that indicates it was not resolved. But again, we don't know exactly what was said. We don't know what that argument was about. What we do know, though, is that just a few days later, on the evening of August 2, something very strange happened. It was just after 6pm and the rum Reef Bar and Grill had closed for the night. The dinner crowd had cleared out and the staff were wrapping up. They were washing the dishes, mopping floors, getting ready to head home for the evening. And that is when a man suddenly appeared at the restaurant's closed doors, just tapping on the door, trying to get somebody's attention. When no one responded, he decided to let himself in through the back, right into the kitchen. Now, of course, these workers were kind of shocked, right? I mean, tourists do a lot of crazy things, but they typically don't just like waltz into your kitchen like they own the place or like they work there. But the reality of it was this wasn't some out of touch tourist bothering the locals, trying to ask for directions or see if they would stay open and make him a plate. He was asking them for help and he was telling them they needed to call the police right away. So of course the staff called 911 or whatever the local number is for the authorities there. It wasn't any of their business, though, to figure out what exactly had happened or try to solve the problem for this guy, for this tourist. But as everything was unfolding, they did notice something that was really weird, something that they'd make a mental note of for when the police did end up arriving. I mean, depending on the situation at hand. You see, even though the guy was asking for police and saying that he needed help right away, he didn't seem panicked. He was calm. Now, before they even found out what had happened, this really wasn't any sort of big deal. But then after the staff learned the truth, it was far more concerning. He had just simply said something to them, like, I need the police, can you call them? And then that was that. Cool, calm, collected, he didn't tell anyone what was actually going on or give any indication of why he needed help, not until the officers actually showed up. And when they arrived, that's when the man explained to the officers that that he and his companion had been snorkeling on Baby beach, which wasn't too far from the restaurant. But then he said, according to him, the currents had started to feel really strong, dangerously strong, according to the man. He told his friend that they needed to call it a night. They needed to head into shore and then head back home. So after that, he swam back to the shore. Except once he was almost to the beach, he looked over his shoulder to see if his friend was still with him, and she wasn't. She was gone. So his assumption was that his friend had gotten swept out to sea and that she might be drowning. That's why he went to this restaurant asking for help, which you've probably figured it out by now. But that man was Gary, and his travel partner was Robin. Which I have to just pause for a moment and say, if you were with your friend, a friend that you're traveling with that you clearly feel close to, and there's a current and you're trying to get back to shore, and you notice that they're not with you or behind you, so you feel as though, oh, my gosh, they could have been swept out. They could be drowning. So you run to a restaurant for help. How are you not panicked? How are you calm? How are you not telling them what's going on? Why are you just saying, I think you need to call the authorities or, please call the authorities? Why aren't you saying, I think my friend is drowning? Does anybody know any lifeguards around here? Are you guys strong swimmers? What do we do? Give the police more context so that maybe they can dispatch somebody? You wouldn't just remain calm, or would you? I mean, I know I wouldn't. I would be freaking out completely, but maybe that's just me. So anyway, after Gary finished telling his story, the officers asked him a question that quite honestly, should have been fairly simple and straightforward. They asked him, are you sure that she never made it to shore? You know, did you wait for her in case maybe she was just a little bit behind you? Or did you walk up and down the beach and the shoreline in case she made it back just a little to the left or a little to the right because the current had moved her? I mean, after all, Robyn was a strong swimmer. So if the currents were gentle enough for Gary to be able to swim through them, she definitely should have been able to make it back, too. Not to mention that, according to her family, Robin was not into snorkeling. She probably wouldn't have even been in that situation at all. But that is an entirely separate issue here. So they ask him this question, basically, A pretty straightforward one. And he's just kind of like, uh, no, no, I didn't wait for her. No, I didn't look down the shoreline. No, I didn't think of that. Kind of, you know, just very aloof. And while that's not the most suspicious thing ever, it definitely was a little bit of a red flag. And it was something that made the police have a little bit of doubt, especially because, as it turned out, Gary was a licensed scuba diver. And scuba diving is not the same thing as snorkeling. Scuba diving is when you go, like, way, way, way down deep. You have, like, the oxygen tank and your. You know, the breathing machine. All these things where snorkeling, you just have, like, the really ugly face mask and the tube that comes out of your mouth and goes up where it's like a spigot kind of thing. So they're very different. But scuba diving, arguably, is way more intense. So you would think that with his training, you would definitely think that he would know not only to check the beach, but a strong enough swimmer to maybe even swim with her. He would check and all do all these things before he just automatically went to the police again. Maybe, maybe not. I guess it depends on the circumstances, the chaos in that moment, and how you are reacting to a situation like that unfolding. But the thing with all of this is that, remember, Gary seemed very, very calm. So it's not like he made this bad decision to not check the beach because he was in a panic or because he was so freaked out. He seemed mostly okay. Still, the officers took her disappearance very seriously. They sent helicopters to search the water, and everyone was on high alert. But they couldn't find a single trace of Robyn. Her body wasn't found. Her snorkeling gear wasn't found. Just nothing. It was almost like she had never even been out there in the first place. And sure, it can be pretty difficult to retrieve a body once it's in the ocean. I mean, the currents can get very, very strong. And as we all know, the sea is a vast landscape. It is, like, terrifying when you really think about it. However, the investigators really started to question if they were even looking in the right place or if maybe there was more to the story.

[Gary Giordano]

What Mr. Giordano has told us in the investigation is not true. His description of the situation is not in accordance with reality. We know that that day there was virtually no wind, there were no waves, and the current was practically nil.

[Annie Elise]

And all of the red flags just kept adding up from there because get this. The restaurant workers had actually recognized Gary. They had recognized him as being a customer who had been there just a few hours before closing time. And he had been in the restaurant with a woman who the police later identified as Robin, which makes sense. They were traveling together. It makes sense that they would go and eat dinner together. Right. But what was weird is that while Robin was there at the restaurant with him, she seemed kind of off. Now, to be fair, the staff didn't know Robyn. They didn't know her personally, not at all. But you know that feeling when you can just tell when somebody isn't having a good time or when somebody's in a bad mood or where there's, like, tension between two people, it kind of shows all over their face or in their body language. Even if they're a stranger, it's like you can tell that something's not right. And the staff did notice that. One waiter even thought that she seemed woozy. Another said that she was heavily, heavily intoxicated. And not just like she had a few too many cocktails on the beach while they were, you know, relaxing in the sun all day, but more like maybe Gary was pushing alcohol onto her to get her drunk, maybe even tampering with her drinks. In fact, during dinner, at one point, Gary got up, walked out to his rental car with his cup, and poured something inside of it. Police believe that it was vodka and orange juice. Kind of making his own little road soda, his own cocktail. Now, since Robin and Gary were not ordering drinks in the restaurant, that means that if Robyn was getting drunk, it was only on the drinks that he was providing to her. Does that mean that they were roofied or laced? Not necessarily. They could have just been trying to save money. So they were making their own cocktails in the parking lot and bringing them in. But the point being, the drinks were supplied by him, so he did have plenty of opportunity to drug her drink, if that is what he was up to. The waiters also noted that Robyn had ordered a salad, and she wasn't fully eating it. She was just kind of picking at it, hardly even touching it at all, which, again, gave them the impression and the vibe that she was upset about something, that she was just kind of moving the food around her plate, not even eating. And here's where it gets even weirder. And this is one of those details where it's like, you may not even know it's something until later, but it's something where you have to pay close attention, because they also noticed that she was wearing a really Nice evening dress. She also had her hair fully done, her makeup fully done. She just, she looked beautiful. She was a beautiful woman. But that's weird because remember, according to Gary's story, they went out snorkeling afterward. And look, I am not super high maintenance, so maybe you always want to look your best, even if you're going on a hike or an activity after the fact. But if I knew I was going snorkeling after dinner, I sure as wouldn't be putting on a full face of makeup, doing my hair, or wearing an evening dress. I would be wearing like either jeans, sweats, maybe a beach cover up. No makeup for sure. Hair in a bun and like just rolling with it. Who goes to all the effort to do their hair and makeup so nicely just to go plunge in the ocean afterward? And that's not even taking into account the fact that they were clearly drinking. And according to eyewitnesses, she was heavily intoxicated. So how dangerous would it be to go out and swim or snorkel when you are that drunk? So, needless to say, a lot of people were pretty concerned with the timeline of events. We know that the two of them were at this restaurant at around 4pm and we also know that it was a little after 6pm that Gary came in asking for help. Now, more specifically, we actually know that they were both seen leaving the restaurant at exactly 4:12pm and the reason that we know this is someone who was taking a photo. Remember vacation spot? Everybody's got a camera out. Well, someone took a photo and it had Gary and Robin in the background of it. Probably something that was unbeknownst to both Gary and Robin. But it did capture a timestamp and that was great. Now, is it possible that the two of them went back to their hotel, changed their clothes, grabbed some snorkeling gear, Maybe she washed her face, made their way to the beach, only to spend a short time in the water before Robyn was swept away by the currents. Sure, that timeline could make sense, but there's roughly an hour and 45 minutes that no one can fully account for. And without clear details of where they were or what they were doing during that window, a lot of it left room for speculation. And that uncertainty sent people down a rabbit hole. They were now asking whether Gary could have done something far more sinister in all of this to Robin. Could he have hurt Robyn, potentially even killed her, then covered it up, or disposed of her body and made it back to Rum reef restaurant by 6pm Is it possible? Maybe the point is there's either a major gap in the timeline or Gary's story just does not add up. Now, investigators didn't have concrete proof that a crime had been committed. There was no body, no weapon, no clear evidence of foul play. But that didn't stop them from suspecting it, especially because the more they dug into what happened, the more suspicious they became. First, the police tried to nail down the timeline as much as they possibly could. And that began with the police looking for witnesses trying to see if anyone had spotted Gary and Robin after they had left Rum Reef Restaurant. And lucky enough, they were able to get quite a few witnesses. Two separate people independently confirmed that Gary and Robin were at the beach after they had left the restaurant. One person who was on the beach fishing said that they saw them at around 4.22pm he said that the two of them walked by the water for a little while, never really going very deep, just kind of getting their feet wet. Then he watched them get into their rental car and drive off. The second witness said the exact same thing. They saw Gary and Robin on the beach, but they never swam, they never got into the water. They were just walking along the shoreline and, you know, getting their feet wet. Now, all of this to me makes it sound pretty unlikely that they went snorkeling at any point, because think about it, if they left the restaurant at 4:12, I don't know, maybe if you're like super speed Tasmanian devil, you can get back to the beach or I'm sorry, you can get back to the hotel, change, do all that, then get down to the beach. But they saw them on the beach 10 minutes after leaving the restaurant? And what I couldn't find in my research but really piques my curiosity is what did these witness describe them as wearing? Did they say that they were in swimming gear so they could have made it up and down to the hotel in 10 minutes or less? Or was she still wearing that evening dress and were they just walking along the shoreline? Because if that's the case, that's then 4:22pm do they go change after that, then come back and snorkel, all to end up with Gary at the restaurant at 6pm? Something just does not make sense with the timeline here. And I just feel like it's very unlikely to me, in my opinion, that they went snorkeling at any point. And let's also talk about what Gary looked like when he went back to that restaurant asking for help. He had swim trunks on and no shirt, which was different from what he had been wearing when they were there eating earlier that day. And that's not just from witness accounts. That's from security cameras, too. One witness also said that his shoes were wet, but his swim trunks were not wet. Now, I really. I'll be honest with you, I can't tell just by looking at the picture or the security camera footage. It's difficult for me to tell. It doesn't really seem like his swim trunks are clinging to his body like they're soaking wet, but it's also not a great image. So it's difficult to say if they were wet or dry, but does feel weird if the shoes are reportedly wet and nothing else. Because you don't wear shoes when you're snorkeling, but you do wear board shorts when you're snorkeling. So why would the opposite be wet unless you're walking into the water or walking someone into the water? I don't know. Now, on top of all of that, Gary was an older guy. He was 50, like I said. And, you know, not to shame Gary, but he was balding. And apparently he was a little insecure about that because he never would leave his house or in this case, his hotel room without wearing his toupee, which is basically, you know, a little wig for a man. Now, word on the street is that you can't really snorkel with a toupee on. I don't know. I'm not a toupee expert. I've never worn one when I've gone snorkeling. It's just what I've read. Take it for what it is. If you're listening and you have a toupee, feel free to school me all the livelong day. But Google says that it is very difficult to swim without losing a toupee. But either way, when he got to the restaurant around 6pm his hair was dry. So that could mean a couple of things, right? It could mean that he took the toupee off when he went snorkeling. Then when he realized Robin was missing, he rushed back to the hotel, slapped it back on his head, and then went to the restaurant, which would be really, really weird to take time to think about your hair and your insecurities of your balding head when your friend is drowning. But I guess, possible. But the other possible explanation is, of course, that he was never in the water in the first place. So either way, it's another red flag. Now, on top of all of that, as if this isn't suspicious enough, Gary was wearing socks and sneakers Again, did he really pause then, after realizing his friend was drowning, to run back to his hotel room and put on socks and shoes and not get immediate help to help drowning Robin? Or was he supposedly swimming with tennis shoes on or going down to the beach with socks and shoes but changed into board shorts? I mean, neither explanation is great. The police also could not figure out for the life of them what happened to the snorkeling equipment that Gary and Robin had allegedly been using when they were out in the ocean. Snorkeling? Like, did Gary just leave it on the beach behind? And if so, why wasn't it there when the searches began for Robin? If it was rented, did he take the time to then go return it to the rental spot or to wherever he had gotten it before he went to the restaurant at 6pm did he have a receipt for it? There was nothing that could, like, track what was going on. And basically, the investigators could not even prove that the equipment ever existed. So now you've got the weird wet clothes, the really dry toupee, no snorkel equipment, people seeing you walking the beach, not actually going in the water, Robyn wearing full glam to dinner and only to go snorkeling after. I mean, things were not adding up. There were a lot of red flags. And all of this pointed to one. Gary was looking increasingly suspicious. But as we know, suspicion alone is not enough. And the police didn't have any solid evidence to justify an arrest. And time was running out.

[Sponsor Voice (Willy's THC Tonic)]

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[Annie Elise]

Of Serial Lessly is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are all things that people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds because Progressive offers discounts for paying in full, owning a home and more. Plus, you can count on their great customer service to help you when you need it. So your dollar goes a long way. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save on car insurance. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliate Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations. What do you think makes the perfect snack? Hmm, it's gotta be when I'm really craving it and it's convenient. Could you be more specific when it's cravinient? Okay, like a freshly baked cookie made with real butter, available right down the street at a.m. p.m. Or a savory breakfast sandwich I can grab in just a second at a.m. pM. I'm seeing a pattern here. Well, yeah, we're talking about what I crave, which is anything from am pm. What more could you want? Stop by AMPM where the snacks and drinks are perfectly craveable and convenient. That's cravenience ampm. Too much good stuff. Robyn went missing on the 2nd, and I saw some sources that said that they were supposed to go back to the United states on the 5th. Some sources had cited the 9th, but either way, that meant that the investigators only had a few days to build a case against Gary because he was going to leave the country. And that would make the investigation overall way, way, way more complicated. Now the good news is, is that pretty early on, the detectives did find security camera footage from Robin and Gary's hotel. These cameras were not in the main lobby area, but rather like the waiting area right outside the elevator on their floor. So a good vantage point to have. And sure enough, Robin and Gary were in perfect view in one of these cameras, just all alone right there, waiting for the elevator together. And as they were watching this footage of them just waiting for an elevator to come so they could go downstairs, they saw what seemed to be Gary and Robin getting into a very heated argument. So as the police are watching this all unfold, just this perfect glance of footage of the two of them arguing. It took no time at all before they saw Gary just grab Robin by the throat, just. Just strangling her with both of his hands. Now, right at that same time, as he has his hands wrapped around her throat, the elevator door just pings open. And instead of him being spooked and letting her go, he just literally shoves her inside the elevator by the throat. And get this. When looking at the timestamp of this footage, that fight didn't happen early on in this trip, say, maybe a few days before this alleged snorkeling accident gone wrong. This fight happened during the exact window of between Robin and Gary leaving the restaurant. And when Gary returned to the restaurant reporting that she had been swept out to sea. Now, since the video was silent, nobody knows for sure what Robyn and Gary were arguing about, but there is a theory that I have seen reported quite a bit online. Now, remember when I said that early into the trip, Robin's mind was back at home, it was back with Richard, and that she was messaging Richard not too long before she went missing? Well, I've seen a few sources say that she texted him on the morning of the second. Other sources have made it seem like the text message was sent in the afternoon, like around 3pm but either way, sent on the second. So the theory goes, what if Gary saw the text message that she sent while they were out to eat and he got jealous and he felt like, you're on this trip with me. Why are you messaging him? We're supposed to be having this, like, amazing vacation together. And what if he confronted her about it and that's why she reportedly was acting so weird at the restaurant? Or if he hadn't seen the text message, what if after they left the restaurant, he confronted her about why she was acting sad and acting kind of disengaged during dinner? And then what if she told him she was thinking about Richard? Could that have set him off? And the reason that this theory even comes into play is because Gary was known for getting jealous and also known for getting physical, not only with Robyn, as we see in the security footage, but also with other women. Gary's first wife, a woman named Sharon Cohen, said that Gary could not control his anger. Then in 2008, so not too long before he met Robyn, he and his second wife separated. And his soon to be ex made a lot of domestic violence allegations against him. She even took out a restraining order. And what's crazy is that this wasn't the only time that someone took out a protective order against Gary, at least one other of his exes also tried to get one, although I don't know if it ended up being granted in the end of things. So then once Robyn went missing and Gary's photo began getting printed in all these news stories about her, even more women started coming forward. There were all of these stories floating around about how all of these women had dated him and how with all of them, they had gone bad, all because of his behavior. One woman even said that they had had an argument and that during it, Gary threatened her by saying that the world would be a better place place without her in it. She also said that she discovered that he would make these home movies of the two of them having sex, all without her consent, just a full on creep through and through. Then his neighbor, a woman named Jeanette Farrago, said that the two of them had also briefly dated after his second divorce. And apparently he was very big on asking women to go on cruises with him. It was like something he really enjoyed, which to each their own cruises freak me the hell out. But whatever. He would always ask these women to go on cruises with him. And Jennette knew this because he had asked her to go on one, which she turned him down, just like Robyn had turned him down so many times before. And I don't know her exact reasons for why she turned him down or what had happened, but their relationship was super short. They weren't together for very long. Maybe she thought it was too early for them to be traveling together. Maybe she just picked up on some weird vibes. Who knows? But the point is that when Jeanette said no, Gary lost his mind. He was so angry, much angrier than any reasonable person would have been if somebody politely declines your invitation to go on a cruise, or if they're just not interested in taking a trip in general with you. And apparently he did not want to take no for an answer. And when Jeanette then broke things off with him because of all of this, he also would not accept that they were done. And get this, this would be hysterical if it weren't so completely freaking crazy. But she claimed that he got so possessive, so jealous that she once caught him hiding in the woods in a motherfucking deer costume just to watch her. This guy didn't just go in the woods with binoculars and camo and paint his face black or wear a black hoodie. This guy wore a deer costume. I don't even know where you get a deer costume. Like it is I mean, he committed to the bit, okay, but like, that just tells you how deranged and scary this individual was that he felt so entitled to her. So, you know, entitled to her love, her affection, everything that he dressed up as an animal to spy on her in a forest. Like what? What? It is so crazy. Other times, outside of just this weird deer costume incident, he also purposefully would go out of his way to scare her. He would text her things like word for word, what outfit she was wearing, how her hair was done, where she was at, who she was with. Basically proving to her that he was essentially stalking her and that he was watching her every move. Jeanette also said that Gary had forced her to give him her login information for her email account. Apparently he was so jealous and so possessive that he couldn't even trust her to send and receive her own emails. He wanted to monitor everything. He wanted to see who she was and wasn't in contact with. Now, I could go on and on about all of the tons of stories that came out about Gary, but I want to focus on Robyn, because this is Robyn's story. And the point of giving you all of that background on him is because you need to come away with the fact that Gary did have a history of violence. It's also worth noting that Gary had a type and Robin fit that type flawlessly. Perfectly blonde, attractive and outgoing. But in the beginning, Robyn wanted to believe that he was a good guy. She wanted to believe that about everyone. It was just the kind of person that she was. If you remember, she always tried to see the best in people. Her roommate and friend Christina had even said that she and Robyn kind of went back and forth when it came to Gary, because Christina didn't really like him, if only for the rude text messages that he sent to Robyn. But also when she found out about his past, she really did not approve. Because yes, Robyn knew about the allegations against Gary. Now, Christina being her best friend and, you know, the self proclaimed designated person in her life to set her straight, she tried to get her to stop talking to Gary altogether. She also made it very clear that she didn't think that Robyn should be going to Aruba with him. But Robyn felt like it would be fine. She didn't think that Gary would ever, ever hurt her. They had known each other for about a year at this point, which I know in the grand scheme of things isn't exactly the longest duration of time. But she felt like she knew him well enough at this point. He wasn't a total stranger to Her. But as we know, Hindsight is always 2022.

[Interviewer/Reporter]

Why did she go away with this.

[Gary Giordano]

Guy that everyone thought might be a little creepy?

[Christina Jones]

Well, I think now we really know that he's creepy with the women coming forward. Prior to that, I guess there was some maybe hesitation in Christina mind about Robin going on this trip, but giving the circumstance, having heard, had just lost her job, maybe having a bit of rough, a rough time, you know, when you're in that moment of stress, who knows? You know, a trip to anywhere can sound so fantastic.

[Host/Interviewer]

And joining us now is Robyn Gardner's roommate and close friend, Christina Jones. Christina, good to see you this morning. Again, we're sorry it's under these terms. Was it like Robin to just pick up and go away with someone like this?

[Christina Jones]

I think, given the circumstances of just losing her job and possibly going through a rough time, that a trip to anywhere seemed like a good idea.

[Host/Interviewer]

You're her roommate. Was this man, Gary Giordano, was he a big part of her life? Was he a boyfriend?

[Christina Jones]

I wouldn't say he was a boyfriend. He definitely was a friend. And they've known each other for over a year now.

[Host/Interviewer]

He is the primary suspect in this case, according to the Arubian police. What do you know about him? Had you met him many times over the years?

[Christina Jones]

I have never met Gary. I've only heard about him, you know, through Robin. And everything that I'm hearing right now is just from women coming forward about what they know about Gary.

[Host/Interviewer]

Did she ever express to you exactly what the extent of her relationship with him was? I mean, they just friends?

[Christina Jones]

Were they just friends? I know that it was a bit of a role rollercoaster friendship, you know, good one day, not so great the.

[Host/Interviewer]

Next, but not the type of friendship where it would be out of the ordinary for the two of them to go away on something like this.

[Annie Elise]

So, like I mentioned earlier, Gary had asked Robyn to go on trips with him in the past. At one point, he also invited her on a cruise, which she politely just declined and turned down. And in fact, instead, she planned a trip to New York with Richard, which of course, was not anything unusual. I mean, he was her boyfriend. But then when Gary eventually saw the photos of Robin and Richard together and realized that she hadn't just declined his invite for this cruise, she had actually chosen to travel with another man, he completely lost it. Even though that man that she traveled with was literally her boyfriend, he still just could not deal with it. He just couldn't grapple with the idea that she had chosen Another man over her, even though the man, again, was her own freaking boyfriend. So once Gary figured out the real reason that she had declined the cruise and said no, he started blowing up her phone with angry text messages. And it wasn't just during that trip when she was with Richard in New York. The text messages kept coming even after Robin and Richard got back. Now, luckily, Christina was with Robin when some of those messages came through. And she remembers exactly how unsettling they were. She said, quote, he was texting her while we were at breakfast. Very angry at her because she decided that she wasn't going on the cruise. And his responses by text, which I don't feel comfortable repeating, were aggressive, harmful, something that doesn't sit right within myself. And remember earlier how I had said that Gary had made some non consensual sex tapes with one of his exes? Well, now the police were wondering if he had similar footage of him and Robin. They still weren't sure if the two of them were just friends or if their relationship was sexual in nature. But it was worth a shot, right? And they decided to search his phone anyway. And what they found, well, they found photos of Robyn that were not the sort of thing that you would send to somebody who was just a friend. They were apparently very up close, very personal, very nude, very graphic photos of her, which is no big deal. She's an adult and she can send nude photos to anybody she wants. Hell, she can send it to anybody in her contact list, everyone in her contact list, for all I care. It just illustrates that it goes directly against the whole platonic relationship thing that her friend Christina was really trying to push again. Maybe there was some sort of alternate money motivation involved in all of this. Like she wanted Gary to be her sugar daddy, so she was sending him these nudes of herself to entice him or to fool him or lure him. I don't know. It then would have still made this completely platonic and more transactional in Robin's eyes. But I think it's worth noting that even after everything came out, Richard spoke out and he came to Robyn's defense.

[Richard Forrester]

Boyfriend Richard Forrester is with us now. Mr. Forrester, good morning to you.

[Interviewer/Reporter]

Good morning.

[Richard Forrester]

Tell me a little bit about your relationship with Robyn. How long had you been dating her before she took this trip?

[Interviewer/Reporter]

Well, we've been together for about two and a half years, but fairly exclusive, I guess since about January of 2011.

[Richard Forrester]

Now, she told you she was on a trip. She was going to go see family members in Florida. It turns out that's not where she was. How did you find that out?

[Interviewer/Reporter]

I found that out once. I'd spoken to a family member when they told me that she'd been reported missing.

[Richard Forrester]

And then didn't she also send you a text or an email at some point, in fact, admitting that she was in Aruba? And at that time, did she also admit she was there with someone else?

[Interviewer/Reporter]

No. I did get an email saying that she was in Aruba, but it was just a change of plans as far as where they were going.

[Richard Forrester]

Mr. Foerster, have you ever heard of Gary Giordano? Have you ever met him? Do you know anything about him?

[Interviewer/Reporter]

I have never met him. I had heard his name before, and I was under the assumption it was just a friend.

[Richard Forrester]

So when you got that email that she was in Aruba, she added no. No other information. She didn't talk about being fearful, that she was concerned about her safety? Nothing that might help in this investigation?

[Interviewer/Reporter]

No, I'll tell you not. When I got that email on Tuesday morning on the 2nd of August, a little bit after 2 in the morning, she had posted a note, a message on my Facebook wall saying, this sucks. I didn't get it until the morning when I got to work and. And I questioned her. I didn't know what it was, but she didn't respond. I emailed her throughout the day, and then later on in the day between probably, I don't know, somewhere around three in the afternoon, she sent me an inbox message on my Facebook saying, you know, I love you, I care about you. We'll talk about this and sort it out when I get back.

[Richard Forrester]

But she seems like she left a lot more questions than answers.

[Interviewer/Reporter]

Yes.

[Richard Forrester]

Now, when you hear that Mr. Giordano has told authorities that the two of them went snorkeling and she didn't return to the beach when he did. He then tried to leave Aruba. You think you say that that has to be a lie. And why do you say that?

[Interviewer/Reporter]

Just knowing her, Matt, I believe that she's too concerned about her hair, about her makeup. At that point in the evening, afternoon, being in a place like Aruba somewhere, she's probably had a couple of drinks and she's not going to stop to go swimming in the ocean at that point. She's probably going to be getting ready to go out for dinner for the evening. But I just know she's never been a fan of snorkeling. She said she may do it, but she wasn't that interested in. She is a swimmer, but would prefer to be in a swimming pool. Now, being in a place like Aruba, that might be a little bit different, but I just don't accept for one minute that she was snorkeling. Also, the story, from what I understand, had changed, too, from they were snorkeling to they walked out to a point where the water was almost above their heads, and that's when they decided to swim back to shore. When he got back to shore, turned around, and he couldn't see her, he couldn't find her.

[Richard Forrester]

I asked this, and I hope you understand the tone that I ask it with. You seem to know her very well about what she would and wouldn't do, and yet it comes as a surprise to you that she would actually be in Aruba with another man.

[Interviewer/Reporter]

You're right. You're absolutely right. I do feel like I know her very well. She was going through some tough timeshe'd lost her job recently, so I really can't say where her mind was at at that point. My biggest concern isn't that she was there with another man. That's to me, obviously, I mean, that's an issue. But my biggest concern is that she's found and she's found safely, and I'm able to have that discussion with her.

[Richard Forrester]

And when you hear allegations that Mr. Giordano has perhaps been violent or threatened other women in the past, do you fear that he has, in some ways, brought harm to her?

[Interviewer/Reporter]

Very much so. Very much so. I've done my own research. I've had people come out from his past who have contacted me and told me some pretty bad details. So I definitely have a very bad feeling. But at the same time, I just try to stay optimistic and hopeful that she'll be back and return home safely.

[Annie Elise]

Now, maybe he didn't go as hard as Christina did, but he did say that as far as he knew, they were just friends, and he never accused her of cheating and he never bashed her name. So could he just be this confused boyfriend who's blinded by grief? Or maybe Christina filled in some blanks for him, which I don't want to speculate too much. I'm just trying to cover all of the public opinions and the theories out there, as well as the likelihood of each. Now, even though there had been nudes found on Gary's phone, that still was not proof that Robin and Gary were actually involved with one another. He could have hacked her phone. He could have gotten his hands on some photos that she never intended to send to him. Maybe he looked at the Ones she had sent to Richard and sent them to himself. Who really knows which you might be thinking. Okay, Annie, come on, that's a stretch. Like, why are you giving this guy so much leeway? But it did seem like Gary was capable of hacking Robyn's devices, especially given what his ex Jeanette had said about him monitoring her emails. And get this, Robin went missing on a Tuesday. But her boyfriend Richard noted that her Gmail account showed that she had logged in and she was active on it both on Wednesday and Thursday, which, okay, sometimes those trackers can be glitchy. We all know how long to die in the cold with Karen Reed, right? Which. Which, whether you think that happened really at 2am or 6am, whatever you believe is fine with me. I'm just saying, we know that sometimes those trackers can be glitchy. But it also seemed possible that Gary was logging into her account and checking to see if she had been sending any messages that he didn't personally approve of. And when you step back and look at the bigger picture, I mean, all the testimony from the women who had felt stalked or controlled or manipulated by Gary, that coupled with the patterns of him luring all of these women on extravagant trips, it just starts to raise a disturbing question. And not to sound too conspiracy theory here or anything like that, but was this a pattern? Did Gary have an MO Inviting women on luxury vacations not to connect, but to control? Or even worse. And what if it wasn't just about power or revenge or romantic feelings? What if it was about something even colder, even more calculated? A tale as old as time, if you will, something like money.

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[Annie Elise]

Ago, my kids loved the experience because.

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[Annie Elise]

It and decorate it however you want.

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[Annie Elise]

Now get this. As though we have not seen enough red flags already. A few days into the investigation, the detectives discovered that just a few days before Robin and Gary had left for Aruba, Gary had taken out an insurance policy on Robin. It was worth more than $1.5 million, and he was listed as the beneficiary. Now, look, I didn't even know until researching this case that that was a thing. I had no clue that you could just take a life insurance policy out on someone unbeknownst to them and set it for whatever premium, whatever amount and that you're the beneficiary. I thought that life insurance is for like, spouses, children, family members, work, like working and your partner at work. I had no idea that I could just like, be walking around, be like, you know what? I'm gonna take a life insurance policy out on Bailey Sarian. That's what I'm gonna do. And then I'm gonna lure her on a trip. Like what? Sorry, Bailey, if you're listening to this, I know you're probably not, but, you know, I'm just trying to like, say, just A random person, any person, you could take it, an insurance policy out on. And maybe I don't know all the intricacies of like, what the rules are, but the point is Gary took out a policy on Robin to the tune of $1.5 million. And look, I also will say, just to be super clear, so that you guys don't like, try to come for me in the comments, some sources called it a life insurance policy, while others said that it was travel insurance. So I'll note that Gary himself too said it was travel insurance, not life insurance. And as much as I don't like to admit it, travel insurance would make a lot more sense in this particular situation than life insurance. And I said, tried to redeem it because like with any insurance policy, there were a lot of hoops that Gary had to go through. It wasn't this quick and easy thing for him to do, just like calling the company and asking them to cut a check. And one of the biggest wrinkles in Gary's plan at this point with trying to get this check from the life insurance policy or the travel insurance, whatever it is, is that Robin wasn't even officially declared dead at that point. To this day, as a matter of fact, she still hasn't been back to the United States and she pretty much immediately was presumed dead based on the evidence or lack thereof, I guess you could say. But the point is, he was trying to cash out this policy and she wasn't even declared as dead. And here's the thing, while he was talking to the insurance agent on the phone, he came across as almost giddy, excited. Not like he was sad and grieving his friend's death, but more like he won the freaking lottery. His attitude was so off putting that as soon as the call was over, the insurance agent called the police and they said they didn't have hard proof, but it felt really weird. It felt icky. They wanted to make the police known about the situation. Like something about this call did not land. So by the time Gary was ready to fly back to the United States in early August, the investigators now felt like they had more than enough evidence to stop him from leaving the country. And they arrested him at literally the last minute while he was already in the airport. He was arrested with suspicion of murder, kidnapping, manslaughter, and fraud. However, get this, he was never charged.

[Gary Giordano]

So I'm running, I'm in Aruban airport, I go through customs, blah, blah, blah, check in my bag, and the gate is open, and then the head of detectives walks up to Me and says, we're arresting you for the murder of Robyn Gardner.

[Annie Elise]

For the next 16016 days, the investigators built the strongest case against him that they could, and they really did give it their best shot. But in the end, they just could not find the smoking gun. No body, no weapon, no evidence, no DNA. The prosecution kept filing requests, asking to keep him there 30 days more, 30 days more. And eventually, the judge just said, no, we can't do this anymore. At some point, it becomes unlawful. And not that I'm saying that I think that Gary is innocent, but you can't just arrest people off suspicion alone and then keep them in jail forever. And even after the 116 days, that was really all they had. Suspicion. So a judge threw out the case, and Gary went free. Did you ever think this would come all those nights in prison?

[Interviewer/Reporter]

No.

[Gary Giordano]

No, I'd accept of the fact that.

[Annie Elise]

They were gonna.

[Gary Giordano]

Keep me from my kids for forever.

[Annie Elise]

By the time he was released, Robyn was famous. Her case had gone completely viral. So the press was having a field day just right outside of the prison waiting for him. Also at the airport, while Gary was boarding the plane back home. I mean, documenting his every move, they were taking photos of him, of his lawyers, everything. And his main lawyer is a name that you might recognize, one that I know I have scolded and seethed a few times on this podcast, but it's Jose Baez, which is a name you might recognize because he was none other than Casey Anthony's lawyer. So once Gary was now back in the United States, things were pretty smooth for him. I mean, yeah, people recognized him, and they thought that he was a murderer, but he wasn't actually charged with anything. He wasn't in any sort of real legal trouble. So he just got to keep living his life. That is, until May of 2012. Because in May of 2012, he was found having sex in the back of his Cadillac Escalade, and he ended up being arrested and charged with indecent exposure. I don't know why grown men in their 50s are having sex in the back of a car. Like, don't you have an apartment or spring for a hotel room? Maybe I'm just a prude or vanilla. I don't know. But, like, just feels so uncomfy. Even an Escalade, that's a big car, like. Like, that feels like. I don't know, it feels like it would hurt your back. But anyway, so he gets caught, and he gets charged with indecent exposure. Of course, indecent exposure isn't murder. So he was still mostly avoiding any kind of legal trouble or legal consequence for what he had allegedly done to Robin. Except Gary spent a lot of time and a lot of energy trying to convince people that he was innocent. He even went on the Dr. Phil show. I can't add these clips in because Dr. Phil loves to copyright me, but I would definitely recommend looking them up, if only to see, like, his garbage story and all of the excuses that he spewed. Dr. Phil basically said to him at one point, you're a trained scuba diver. You're a person who is already on site, allegedly, with the equipment and the knowledge of what to do in these situations. So why not go back in after her? Once you noticed that she wasn't with you anymore, why not look for her? There's no way that she would have gotten that far. But of course, Gary, he got super defensive. He actually said he had been fighting for his life just to get to the shore. And he knew that if he went back into the water to go looking for Robin, the odds were that the both of them would turn up dead. Which might sound a little dramatic, especially because he was a trained scuba diver. Yes. But it's also true and correct. It's just like how they say you're supposed to put on your own mask on the airplane before you put on somebody else's. Because if you're tired or you can't do it, how are you going to help somebody else? And if somebody is drowning, you're not supposed to try and help them because the odds is that you won't be able to rescue, rescue them and then you'll both die in the process. But I don't know, in the context, with all the other red flags around him, I just see a walking red flag. And Gary didn't stop with just going on the Dr. Phil Show. You would have thought that this guy was like trying to promote a book or a movie or something because he was going on a full blown press tour. Which I also gotta say, we've seen this done before. And it's like if you. I understand wanting to advocate for your innocence if you are innocent 100%. But if you did just get away with murder, not saying he did, but if you did, wouldn't you want to go radio silent? Wouldn't you consider yourself lucky and not go on this full fledged, like, press Tour?

[Gary Giordano]

What happened August 2nd that day with Robin Gardner? I've answered that question 50, 60 times. I'm not prepared to at this point go from the moment of that day to the end of the day, we were 100 yards from a scuba diving store, not a remote location, okay? We were in view of other people at Baby Beach. So when I came out of the water, I was. I was exhausted. I had my tennis shoes on when we went in the water, and when I came back, I was swimming back. It was exhausted when I got back to shore. And then I had to run all the way around. Here was the thing. It's like running a marathon and you come around the last corner and you're expecting a whole crew of people yelling for you and there's nobody there. You're not going to go hike. High five.

[Richard Forrester]

The air.

[Annie Elise]

Now, whether he was basking in the limelight or truly was just trying to get his innocence out there, eventually the spotlight turned off. People weren't paying as much attention to Robin's case or to Gary anymore, and he stopped making all of his weirdo appearances. But the case wasn't done yet because Gary was still working on trying to collect that insurance policy. He still hadn't gotten any money by 2012. So that's when he decided he was going to sue American Express travel insurance for $3.5 million. He actually even gave a statement on the lawsuit, which would have been comical if the whole situation wasn't just, like, so messed up. He said, I've purchased travel insurance many times before. I have children, and if I go traveling and then I disappear, I want them to be covered, okay? I was selecting it for me, and then she got the same thing. Now, look, I don't get what having children has to do with Robyn's death. It's not like she knew Gary's kids or had anything to do with any of them at all. So it was this like, weirdly self serving statement that also made no sense. And he's made similar arguments in other press appearances.

[Gary Giordano]

I have a house, a large house and a lot of payments. And if I. If I go traveling and I disappear, I want them to be covered, okay? So I maxed out on everything. Medical, I think, was 150,000 or whatever, but that's automatic. I can't unselect Robin, okay? And when it came down to the accident insurance, you can't unselect her, okay? So when I selected that, I was selecting it for me, and she got the same thing. So she's missing and two days later you're inquiring about, you're not trying to collect, but you're inquiring, why would you do that? And she's still missing. It's exactly right.

[Richard Forrester]

Okay.

[Gary Giordano]

So that's a wonderful question. And I understand that my lawyer at the time, not this man here, Michael Lopez, okay. He had. He told me, said you need to call insurance immediately because these helicopters and scuba divers that were going to go into market, which they didn't go in until days later. He said they might send you an invoice.

[Annie Elise]

Now, even if he has absolutely nothing to do with Robin's disappearance, which my personal opinion, I don't believe that I think he does have something to do with it. That is just my opinion. As always, do your own research, form your own opinions. But it just. To me, even if he didn't have anything to do with it, it comes across like he is so greedy. He's only interested in the money, and he's trying to frame it like it's his way of trying to be a good dad. But to me, it just makes him come across even more insincere, more fake. And thankfully, I wasn't the only one who thought that way, because a judge ended up dismissing the entire lawsuit. Lawsuit. He was never actually able to profit off of Robyn, thank goodness. But that brings us to today. It's been more than a decade since Robyn went missing, and there are still no answers. Her body has never been found, which also means it's impossible to say if she really did drown in a snorkeling accident or if she died some other way that's more obviously a homicide. Like I mentioned earlier, she is presumed dead. And that has been something. Pretty much. Much everyone, I mean, friends, family, law enforcement, everybody had come to terms with that pretty early on. But despite this, she still hasn't been officially declared dead in the US and from what I can tell, Gary has just been living his life in peace and privacy. He's never been in any serious legal trouble outside of that, you know, public indecency, exposure, arrest. And he's kind of just been flying under the radar ever since the lawsuit was dismissed. So it's looking more and more like this case may never be solved. But I want to hear your thoughts and theories on this case. What do you think? Do you think it is possible that Robyn died in a tragic accident? That she was wasted? After dinner, they did decide to snorkel. Did Gary get away with murder? Or is there another suspect in all of this that maybe I'm missing that I haven't covered? Let me know what you think in the Q and A section on Spotify, in the Apple review section, or in the YouTube comment section. And I'm stoked, too, because I think I mentioned this a little while ago. YouTube now allows me to reply to comments in a voice memo, which I feel like is, like, so much more personal and like, I can do it off the cuff and like, just you can hear, you know, the inflections in my voice or whatever, however that's described. So I love that. So I try to get to as many as possible, but can't get to them all. But anyway, another way for us to engage with each other. So, anyway, I'm curious to know your thoughts. Let me know. Thank you guys so much for tuning in to another case and for hearing Robin's story. And until the next one, be nice. Don't kill people. Maybe don't go on any cruises with anyone you meet online. And I don't know, don't go snorkeling. Maybe that's the big takeaway. I don't know. I hate snorkeling. It freaks me out. All right, guys, thank you so much. And until the next one, take care. Bye.

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