← Serialously with Annie Elise
Serialously with Annie Elise
352: She Said it Was Self Defense: The Axe Murder That Shocked Suburbia | Candy Montgomery
01:07:27
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What does VA mean to me?
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A place for my daughter to call home thanks to the VA Home loan, a new lease on life. The best healthcare team I've ever had.
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Is here at VA in education and the opportunity to open doors I never thought possible with my GI Bill.
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The financial support I need to manage the disabilities I develop because of my service.
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Get what you earn. Visit choose.va.gov not all veterans are eligible for the type or amount of benefits mentioned here.
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Hey true crime besties. Welcome back to an all new episode of Serial Asleep. Hello, hello, hello. And welcome back to an all new episode of Serial As Lee I hope you all had an amazing holiday season with your family, your friends, your loved ones. We're obviously still in the thick of it and that's kind of what brings me on today. Instead of headline highlights today, we actually are going to do a case deep dive together. Now there is a dramatization series that recently released on Netflix called Love and Death. And so, so many of you have been asking me to cover this case because a lot of you are new listeners and you didn't know that we covered this case a few years ago. So what we're going to do today is a little bit of a throwback episode. We're going to revisit that case. I'm going to give you all of the deep dive details and we will resume regular headline highlights next week. But now for this week, you'll have, you know, a little bit of a longer episode to get you through the family get togethers, get you into the new year. And yeah, so interested to hear what you guys think about this case. It definitely is a wild one. And let me know if you guys have watched Love and Death on Netflix yet. I again hope you all had an amazing holiday and happy New Year. Oh gosh, guys, today's episode, it is just a wild one. It was one that I was debating if I wanted to cover with you guys and if I wanted to do it on the podcast or if I wanted to do it over on 10 to life. But it's one that is the epitome of serialist ly and makes you kind of say, seriously, what the f. Like what is going on? And it's very interesting and you'll understand what I'm talking about here in a second. But it's very interesting because it's a case that has been repurposed into material on Netflix or I'm sorry, not Netflix on Hulu, hbo Max. But two different points of view are stated in the series version of this case and also they missed so much information. So I'm going to talk more about that in a second. Guys. Sorry, I know I'm getting ahead of myself. But anyways, welcome back. I'm so glad you're here with me, besties. It's another true crime case that we just have to talk about. So before we jump in, if you could quickly do me a solid, just double check that you're listening or I'm sorry, that you're. That you're listening D that you're following this podcast. I didn't even know that following a podcast was a thing until recently, but it's almost like Instagram or any other social media you can follow along so that you actually get notified of future episodes that I drop. And lately I've kind of been dropping a lot of random bonus episodes throughout the week as we've been following so many cases with trial updates, things like that. So you're going to want to follow the podcast if you're not already so that you get notified of those bonus episodes as they drop. So take a quick second, I'll pause and you can do so really quick. And then also, if you of course enjoy this episode, please, at the very end of it, take a quick second to rate and review. So today we are going to be delving into yet another chilling true crime story. This one is from the late 6th 70s, early 80s, and it pits two women against each other in a story filled with just truly twisted friendships, secret love affairs, and a brutal, brutal murder that truly shocked a small Texas town to its core. Now, at first glance, it appeared to be a random act of violence, but as the investigation unfolded, it became clear that this was no ordinary crime. Guys. As the truth came to light, it it revealed a truly horrifying case of lust, deception and a fatal friendship that would end in absolute bloodshed. Copious amounts of bloodshed. Now, as I mentioned, this story has recently been highlighted in the media, and specifically, it's been recently highlighted on HBO Max's series Love and Death, starring Elizabeth Olsen, who I absolutely am obsessed with and love, as well as on the Hulu original series Candy, starring Jess Kabiel, which was released back in 2022. Now if you haven't seen those, I highly do recommend watching them because they are so, so good. But like any made for TV series or movies, sometimes the facts, the dates or situations are added, manufactured, or not included at all. And it's done in an effort to dramatize certain events in a way to make the story flow Better to make it more intriguing, to make you follow along a little bit closer as a viewer, and of course, to add mystery to it, which let me just say, and there is no shade here, because I love Hulu and I love me some HBO Max. And both series are amazing. I've watched them both. But do you ever watch something knowing the case and it's supposed to be based on a true story, and then you wonder to yourself, what's the real story here? What are the real events? I know this case. They're missing. X, Y and Z. Or hey, wait, I thought this really happened this way, didn't happen that way. Well, that's the same situation here. Because what's been portrayed on both of these series isn't quite exactly the real story here, which is why I wanted to come on here and tell it to you guys. And also just another little fun fact about these series. So apparently, production on Love and Death on HBO Max, which is airing right now, new episodes every single week, I think a new episode comes out in two days. That production started back in either 2020 or 2021, well before the production on the Hulu's series Candy started. But Candy came out first and Love and Death came out almost a year later. And I obviously don't know the ins and outs of production. I don't know what's going on there. But based on watching both of these series and knowing the case myself personally and the true story of what happened, I almost think that Candy, the people on Candy, knew that Love and Death were starting production or had started production, so they kind of rushed to the finish. Because although it is a very good series, there are so many things that have been skipped and omitted. And I can't help but wonder if it's because they were trying to get the jump on HBO Max and so they just rushed to then put the series out ahead of them on Hulu. And. But so then when I watched the HBO Max version, and I'm still watching it now, I was like, there's still stuff missing. And you guys have had years to get it right. So I get it. They do it all to dramatize it and do everything that way. But. And I love it as a viewer, but still, I wanted to come on here and tell you, like, the true story here because it is a very, very scary case and a very brutal case. So we're going to go through all of the details. Their friendship, the secrets that they harbored, and the true events that culminated the perfect storm for a gruesome Horrific murder.
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The Texas Rangers, state police, Dallas police, the Collin county sheriff are all assisting. It's just some tragic thing that some sick person has come along and did. I hope they find people who normally don't even lock their doors, tell us tonight they'll sleep with shotguns by their beds. This was a terrible thing to walk in on. You can imagine whatever you think to be the very worst possible thing you could see in the middle of the night and then multiply that by about 6, and maybe you'd have it something that don't happen in Wylie very often. People are scared. They're concerned about it.
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Wiley's a small town and a lot of people know everybody around. They've looked around for years, and we're just scared that it might be somebody we know, you know, someone that we thought was, you know, sweet guy.
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Almost everyone has the latest version of.
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The latest rumor, but Wiley's police chief.
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Tells us he doesn't have much of anything.
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Well, I've been here for almost the.
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Whole trial, and I can't believe it. Everybody's in shock.
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Hey, y'. All. Candy Montgomery was a vivacious, charming woman who had moved to the small town of Wiley, Texas, with her husband Pat and their two children. On the surface, Candy appeared to be the embodiment of the all American suburban mom. She was juggling her responsibilities as a loving wife, a doting mother with while finding time to be active in her church and her community. Singing on the choir, being the PTA mom, doing the baked goods. Literally the definition of the all American perfect mother, or one that you would think, especially back in, like the 70s. She was so active in her church and her community, and through that, she met a dear friend of hers or someone who would become a friend of hers. Betty Gore. Now, Betty Gore was a very kind and gentle soul. She too, was deeply devoted to her faith, her family and her community. Betty was married to a man named Alan Gore, and the couple had two beautiful daughters together. And as Candy Montgomery appeared to be living the American dream. So why or how, I should say how on earth would either of these women be involved in a case involving a murder? Well, to understand this story, we have to go back to the beginning to understand who Candy Montgomery is and who Betty Gore is, starting with Candy. Candy Montgomery was born in the mid-40s as Candace Lynn Wheeler, but she went by the nickname Candy for short. She was raised in a typical post war American home. By all accounts, her childhood was seemingly normal. She was described as a charismatic woman who possessed a certain spark that made her really stand out in a crowd and stand out from other people. In her early 20s she met the man who would later become her husband and his name is Pat Montgomery. The two of them met at work. Pat was an electrical engineer who worked for Texas Instruments. He was paid an annual salary of $70,000, which is roughly, if you're just kind of thinking back to when it was in the 70s. 70 grand back then now equates to $340,000 today. So he had a pretty handsome salary. And this was as an engineer. Candy was working as a secretary at the time at the same place, Texas Instruments. Pat was a reliable, hard working man and the kind of guy who could provide the stability and comfort and life that Candy really had envisioned for herself. There are some reports that Candy initially felt like Pat was too much of an introvert for her and that she didn't even find him phys attractive. But when she realized the amount of money that he was earning, she gave him a second chance. But I'm not sure if that's 100% true or not. That's just some reports that I was finding. According to some people who knew the couple, either way they met, they may or may not have fallen in true love and wedded bliss, but they did tie the knot, promising to share a life of happiness and love. And they did. They relocated to Wiley, Texas in 1977 and started their life in this quiet, tight knit community. And the way that their life is depicted in the HBO series and even in the Hulu series very much aligns with this. They appear to live in a cookie cutter neighborhood. She is by all accounts the perfect PTA mom. Doing the baked goods, doing the soccer lessons or not soccer lessons, soccer practice runs, you know, very, very. Dinner is on the table at 5:30, Pat comes home from work. But there was sort of in both series this underlying feeling that you get as a viewer that maybe Candy wasn't as into Pat as he was into her. Which also aligns with the accounts that we had heard from friends of the couple that she maybe was more blinded and into the money than she was. Truly the physique of Pat himself and his introverted personality. And you kind of get this underlying feeling too as you're watching the series, but not enough to where you would ever think that she would step out on him or be unhappy in the marriage. Just maybe that there wasn't as much passion or lust that you would see in other marriages or other series. But still living on the beautiful block, the perfectly manicured Landscaping and living their best life. Now at the time, Wiley was an extremely small town just being discovered by the wealthier executives of Texas Instruments who were all looking to settle in the suburbs outside of Dallas. So they built a beautiful home. They made friends with the neighbors and became regular faces at the First United Methodist Church of Lucas, which is another small town located near Wylie. And Candy seemed like she was the perfect wife. But she wasn't just a wife. Remember, she was also a mother. She and Pat were blessed with two children, a girl and a boy. She was very active in her community. She juggled her responsibilities with an extreme amount of grace and had a beautiful voice. She sang often in the church's choir and she stood out while singing with that beautiful voice. They had a very well respected reputation, which was extremely important to Candy. She wanted to be seen as the perfect family, the perfectly well groomed woman, the woman who could do it all, who could juggle it all while keeping her man happy and food on the table promptly, you know, at 5:30pm she was your typical southern suburban mom in the 1970s, absolutely, hands down. And if you're from the south, you know exactly what I am talking about when I say that. So after they moved to Wiley, Candy met another local resident and she was also a fifth grade teacher and her name was Betty Gore. She met Betty while at church where they both sang in that choir. Candy's daughter Jenny and Betty's daughter Alyssa became best friends very, very quickly. And this of course caused Candy and Betty to become even closer friends because their daughters were hanging out, they were doing sleepovers, they were the best of friends. So it was only natural that Candy and Betty would of course also bloom a friendship between the two of them. They spent time together, attending events and sharing the ups and downs of life together. However, life in Texas was not all sunshine and rainbows for Candy. The pressures of her marriage, the responsibilities of motherhood and the mundane aspects of suburban mom life began to weigh heavily on her. She was growing increasingly restless and she was seeking excitement, seeking a thrill and seeking for validation outside of her marriage, which could easily turn into a recipe for disaster.
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You know 39% of teen drivers admit to texting while driving. Even scarier, those who text are more likely to speed and run red lights. Shockingly, 94% know it's dangerous, but do it anyway. As a parent, you can't always be in the car, but you can stay connected to their safety with Greenlight Infinity's driving reports. Monitor their driving habits, see if they're using their phone, speeding and more. These reports provide real data for meaningful conversations about safety. Plus, with weekly updates, you can track their progress over time. Help keep your teen safe. Sign up for Greenlight infinity@Greenlight.com podcast now. Before we go any further into this story, we need to talk about another couple and another key player in this story. Betty and Alan Gore. Betty was from a small town in Texas and Betty and Alan's paths first crossed at a social gathering where they were both instantly drawn drawn to one another. A very different connection than what is to have been said about Candy and Pat. Betty and Alan had a spark and they were instantly drawn to each other. Their shared values and aspirations for a family oriented life quickly formed the foundation of their relationship together. It wasn't long before they realized that they were meant to be together and they got married and started a family of their own. Alan Gore, Betty's husband, was a hard working and dedicated family man. His work often took him away on business trips out of the area and Betty hated, hated, hated, hated the fact that he traveled so much for work. Betty struggled with feelings of loneliness and isolation as Alan's frequent travels left her alone to care for their young children and manage the household all on her own. She would call Allen constantly at work, calling the hotels that he was at calling his boss, calling the restaurants, and when she would make these calls, she would even call his boss and ask him not to send Allen on these work trips anymore. Which I just can't even imagine as not only a working mother, but married to a working spouse. If my spouse was calling my boss behind my back saying, please don't send Annie on these work trips anymore, please, I need her home more, I would be absolutely mortified and really frustrated with my partner because that is just extremely unprofessional and, I don't know, doesn't look good. So she would call constantly while he was at work on these trips. Call the boss, call the hotels. Kind of crazy behavior, in my opinion. But she just couldn't handle him being gone and being away from her. It was also said that Betty had been struggling with postpartum depression and. And that Allen traveling for work made this much worse on her. Now, as someone who has been very open and candid with my personal struggles with postpartum depression, I can understand where this could come into play and make what maybe normally wouldn't seem like a big deal. If your husband has gone away on work, it could seem like the end of the world. Absolutely. But luckily, during all of this, Betty still had her church friends and she could rely on them like Candy Montgomery. But other than her small circle of church friends and Candy, she didn't have many other friends. In both the HBO and Hulu series, she was depicted as an extremely unlikable person who her friends, or quote unquote friends just tolerated because that's what nice churchgoing people do. She was also seen as irrational with her demands on Alan. Very cold, very. Just kind of withdrawn, not likable, not approachable, very brash, and just not an easy to get along with person. There was also a scene in the series where they had welcomed in a foster child and Betty got really upset yelling at this child and then demanded Alan return the boy to the shelter, which was also kind of weird. And of course, we don't know the exact truth with that particular situation, but in the series it portrayed this child as seemingly maybe adjusting in a little bit difficult of a manner, but a nice kid wanting to have a birthday party, wanting to celebrate, and Betty just lashing out time after time and making things very difficult for him and then putting the onus on Allan and telling Allan, you need to send this kid back to the shelter. I don't want to deal with him anymore. Now, Betty's family has said that that was not true at all. And that that depiction in that series was not accurate and that it was not an accurate of her character at all, which, I get it, that's her family. But it is true that Betty had a foster child and many, as a matter of fact, she took in more than 60 children during her time as a foster parent. So as for Allen in this marriage, because it's a two way street, we know he wasn't the only one who felt like the pressures of work and his absence away from home were taking a toll on his marriage. He was pretty annoyed with Betty and the fact that she didn't understand that he had to do this for work and he had to go away and on these work trips in order to provide for their family, put food on the table and provide for their children, especially with needing to provide her with the lifestyle that they had and that she had come accustomed to. Her behavior was also pretty frustrating for him and he kind of had to walk on eggshells with just about every detail and situation in their life to not make her mad. And similar to the two series depicting Candy and Pat's relationship and possibly the no love lost there kind of dynamic, and maybe him being a little bit of an introvert, the series also depicted Alan and Betty's relationship in a way that very much aligns with the reports from family and friends. They depict her, as I mentioned, as very withdrawn, not easy to get along with, very mean. And they depicted Allen as, like I said, walking on eggshells, not wanting to upset Betty, wanting to treat her with kid gloves. Now, whether he was doing this because of the postpartum depression or doing this because he just didn't want another battle and another argument with Betty, it's unknown, but you definitely could get this energy between the two of them while you're watching both of these series play out, almost as though you feel that feeling in the pit of your stomach of, such as the dread of not wanting to go home and face your partner or not wanting to voice your true opinion on something because you're trying to avoid an argument from erupting. You could feel the tension, it was thick between the two of them. So you have these two marriages kind of on opposite ends of the tracks, but both dealing with things behind closed doors, private and personally, things that were struggles in their marriage. How did the two of them intersect? How did they all cross paths to where we would end up with massive bloodshed? Well, as portrayed in the Hulu and HBO miniseries, Kandy really did approach Alan first following a church volleyball match In October of 1978, she approaches Allen, confessing her attraction and proposing they start a casual affair in secret between the two of them. According to Texas Monthly, Candy said, and I quote, I've been thinking about you a lot, and it's really bothering me, and I don't know whether I want you to do anything about it or not. I'm very attracted to you and I'm tired of thinking about it. So I wanted to tell you kind of a big bombshell to just drop on somebody after a casual church volleyball game, but okay, to each their own. I don't know that I would necessarily sneak off into a car in the parking lot after a church gathering and say, hey, I can't stop thinking about you. But you know what? I don't know if I want to do anything about it yet. And then just kind of like mic drop and leave the car. But it takes a lot of courage. It takes a lot of balls to do that. Also kind of a little bit distasteful, in my opinion, but whatever. That was Candy's jam, and that is what Candy did. So about a week later, there was another church volleyball game. And at this point, Alan's interest was piqued. He had been stewing over this information for about a week. He had been in his own home with Betty, where things had high levels of tension. So in his mind, he's like this beautiful woman who appears to have it all, wants me, she's interested in me, she's going to give me that validation. The wheels are turning for about a week now until this next church volleyball game. So at this game, Alan then approaches her and asked her what she had in mind. And Kandy replied to him very, very matter of factly asking, would you be interested in having an affair? And it was so unbelievably direct. But apparently that is just how Candy was. And this scene, as it all plays out in both of the series, is actually dead on to how it played out in real life. She was very, matter of fact, very direct, very to the point, had a lot of confidence, which I also have to say, not only does that take an increasingly high amount of confidence and courage and a brass set of balls to not only tell somebody that you find them attractive and you want to have an affair with them, but imagine if he's not interested. Imagine if he is a devoted husband, faithful. You come in so brazen and, like, confident and not scared that he's going to tell his wife what you just told him or not tell your husband. You're all part of a church. What if he was like a true man of God and said, no, we can't do this? Candy and then tells the pastor or confides in other churchgoers like, that is a big, big risk that she took, but nonetheless, Homegirl took it. In both the Hulu and HBO series, the pastor of the church, who is a woman named Jackie, was one of Kandy's closest friends. In both series, Candy confided in Jackie that she was wanting to spice up her sex life and have an affair with somebody after she had learned that Jackie was getting divorced. And in both of the series, it kind of insinuated that even though Jackie told her not to, she kind of encouraged the affair a little bit or kick started it in some way by not saying absolutely not or don't do that or that's a sin. It kind of felt like in the series that she wasn't entirely against it, at least that's the way I interpreted it. However, that part was not true at all. Jackie was a real person and was a real close friend of Candy's, and they did gossip over Koffee from time to time, especially after Jackie told her that she was getting a divorce. So Kandi initially had shared with Jackie her desire for a passionate adventure. However, Jackie didn't know anything specific or any of the specific developments of an affair ever happening. There were also some scenes with Candy sharing the details of her affair with her good friend best friend Sheri, who she later went into business with. And from what I've read, this is in fact true. But it's unknown if she actually gave specific details to Sherry, like Allen's name and the times and the locations and things of that nature. So Alan was a little bit hesitant about starting an affair. He truly didn't want to wreck his marriage and neither did Candy. Although Candy wanted to spice things up and get things going, she didn't want to ruin her happy life, her happy home with her children and her husband, who was so wildly successful. So Alan took a little bit more time to agree to having an affair, but nevertheless, eventually he said yes, he was in. And what's so interesting, because I thought when I saw this in the series that this next detail was absolutely not true. I was like, there is no way that this could be true. Who would ever do something like this to make it so businesslike, so transactional? But as researching the case, it was in fact true. They both made a list of pros and cons to having an affair. And in addition to a pro and cons list. They also set up strict rules that they were going to put in place for this affair, making it feel very transactional, almost as though it was strictly just for the physical pleasure of it. There was no emotion involved. So we are going to be very black and white as to what this means within those rules. They both agreed that it would remain purely physical, not emotional. They said that they would meet at motels in Dallas so that they wouldn't be recognized, and that Candy would pay for these motel rooms in cash, which then later Allen would apparently reimburse her for half of the hotel amount, which they say, chivalry is dead. Am I wrong? Am I right? I mean, the least you could do, Alan, is pay for the motel room. Give me a break. But whatever. So most of these little motel trysts would happen while Alan was supposed to be on his lunch break because he wasn't able to, of course, get out of his home undetected without Betty throwing a fit. So because of this, Alan wasn't going to go hungry. He was dipping out to these motel rooms to meet Candy. But he was still hungry. He still had an appetite. So Candy would bring meals to Allan in the motel room. She did this not only because boys got to eat, but also so that they would have more time together while they were in the motel room. And another part of one of their rules was that if either one of them started to have any sort of emotional feelings for the other, they would immediately end the affair and go back to their lives as if nothing had ever happened. So you have all of these rules in place. You have your pros and cons list, you have where you're going to have the scene of the crime. You have the logistics of who's going to pay for it, how you're going to get reimbursed, how you're still not going to have a growling stomach when you go back to work and clock back in. What could go wrong? Right? What could go wrong, you might be asking. But as we know, a lot can go wrong. So after Candy and Alan had their perfect affair set up, the plans were in place. They knew what they were going to do. They picked the date that their affair was going to begin. And that that date that they had set was December 12, 1978. After the affair began and after they started sleeping together, they must have been like having a good old time peeing the vagee, because the affair was all Candy could think about. It consumed her every single waking moment, which was very interesting because reports say that it Wasn't like she was even that physically attracted to Alan in the first place. It wasn't like she found him so hot, she just had to have him. So maybe he's like a dynamo in bed, I don't know. But it literally consumed her. And it was also not necessarily just the physical aspect of it. It wasn't that the physical attraction is really even what mattered to Candy because it wasn't really about Allan, it wasn't about him as a person. This really was about her, about her feeling wanted, feeling validated and getting that thrill that she had been so desperately seeking. The affair made her feel alive, it made her feel wanted, it made her feel sexy, free. And all of the things that she felt she was not getting from her husband, Pat. And not to say that Pat did anything wrong either, because he absolutely didn't. He was a great husband, great father, good loving provider, fully committed to Candy, like fully in it. And he was just a fantastic stand up guy. So much so that even throughout the entire affair while she was sleeping with Allen, she was still acting like everything was fine with Pat. She wasn't retreating, she wasn't finding reasons to be angry with him, to try to justify her actions to herself. She still was apparently in this happy marriage with him. Which I thought that that was really interesting because in both of the series it depicts a little bit different scenarios. In one of them it shows that she was happy. They were loving this still the All American family where another one it kind of magnifies. Magnifies. It kind of started to magnify on Pat being an introvert and Candy being so free and, and just kind of very quick responding to him like she's not super invested. So it kind of was all over the place as far as the story being told through the series versus what the actual true events were with it. Now for Allen, it was weird. This affair actually had a completely different effect on him than you would expect an affair to have on somebody. He felt like his marriage was actually initially getting better after starting this affair with Candy because he was getting sex, he was getting physical intimacy, he was getting all of these aspects that he was craving from someone that was not Betty. So then when he was at home with Betty, he felt fulfilled, he felt happy because he had been getting all of this from somewhere else. And because of this, when he was home with Betty, she didn't seem so disappointing and it didn't seem so annoying or like she was a nag or anything like that. She seemed pleasant all of the sudden. And he Also felt like because of this, because he didn't have this weight on his shoulders of being unhappy at home, that he could be more present while he wasn't home. He wasn't so focused on the burdens or the discomfort or the unpleasantness because now he had his outlet where he was happy. So then it gave him more patience when he came home. So the affair appeared to be working out between the two of them. So much so that the affair between Allen and Candy lasted from December 1978 until October 1979, almost a full year. Now, get this. Because this part actually enrages me just on a human level and on a married woman's level and just like a female level. But during this time, as this affair was going on, Betty actually got pregnant while Alan was busy having this affair with Candy. And the series did portray this detail correctly. Get this. Candy actually threw a baby shower for Betty while sleeping with her husband. It is the ultimate betrayal. Like, and guys, I'm just gonna go off here on a quick tangent because, you know, I lately have had to bring all things back to Scandival, which is the Raquel and Tom Sandoval scandal from Vanderpump Rules that has, like, rocked the entire world. Everybody was so shattered by that, myself included, because he basically cheated on his partner of 10 years with this girl who was his girlfriend's best friend, and they had a secret affair for seven months. And, like, everybody's like, how could you do this? Candy and Alan, they were going down with each other for like a year, and Candy's crazy ass threw Betty a baby shower. Imagine if you've been following the Scandival trial. Trial. God, it should be a trial. If you've been following the Scandival thing. Imagine if Raquel threw Ariana a baby shower or like a bachelorette party or something like that. How much worse that would even be? Not saying it's not bad as it is, but, like, that is how crazy and twisted this becomes. Alan impregnates his wife while having an affair, and then the mistress throws her a baby shower. It is sick, sick, sick. Get out. All the red flags, start waving them. And this is where we ask ourselves, seriously, like, really make it make sense. But it wasn't going to be this happy, sick, twisted paradise for long. No, no, no. Because soon after the bab born, things started to shift between Candy and Allan. Initially, Candy started questioning the affair, feeling that she was becoming overly emotionally invested, wondering, is this a good idea? Should we be having this affair? Now I'm feeling emotionally Invested. And Allen soon followed suit, realizing that his primary attention should absolutely be on his marriage and his children. Yeah, Alan, you think Alan wanted to be with Betty, he wanted to stay with Betty, he wanted to make his marriage work. So he and Betty went to a marriage retreat weekend called Marriage Encounter. It was a program that was run through their church or through a local church. And it was supposed to focus on building back the foundation of your marriage, the bonding, the coping, the communication, and really just rebuilding brick by brick your levels of intimacy with each other and the entire foundation of the marriage. And it was said that this retreat really did in fact help the marriage between Betty and Alan. And interestingly, Candy and Pat also attended that same retreat. But later on, this was also super interesting because it wasn't touched on a lot in the series Candy, but in the HBO series Love and Death, it shows Betty and Alan and come back from this retreat, which Candy was babysitting their children when they went on this retreat. It shows them come back just being touchy feely with each other. Allen grabbing his baby from Candy and just being very quick and being like, okay, thank you, bye. Not having any, not even really making eye contact with her to where as a viewer, it makes you feel like, oh, this retreat really worked. And Candy, he don't want you no more. He's over it. He wants to make his marriage work. He wants nothing to do with you or your, you know, rotting nether regions. Sorry, that's really mean to say, but I just hate people who have affairs. I really do. So anyways, this entire retreat seemed to work, so much so that later on, Candy and Pat attended the same one. So Allan seemed to be moving on with his life at this point. But Candy was fuming on the inside, very, very upset. She felt distraught that now this person who she was falling in love with at this point point was back with his wife. But she also was mad because she felt like this was the complete end of her fun and adventurous escapade that was keeping her busy. And so she had lost the one thing that she had focused so much of her attention on now. It had been ripped away from her. She was floating, she didn't know what to do. And she had to go back now to her somewhat stale, boring life of normalcy that many people, let me just say, would kill to have. No pun intended, but she didn't know what to do. This man who she was in love with, who she's thinking, she's so confident, he wants to be with me, he's now going back to his wife. He doesn't want her. He's happy in his marriage. She now doesn't have this outlet and this thrill and validation that she had been getting. So what is she going to do through all of this? Poor, poor Pat? Candy's husband found a card, a greeting card from Allan to Candy. And when he found this, he put it together that they had an affair. But Pat wasn't mad. He actually felt like it was kind of his fault for not making Candy more of a priority in his life and for letting the marriage get a bit stagnant. Which let me just say, if you are listening to this or watching this and you discover that your loved one is having an affair, it is not your fault. You are not the responsible one for that. You absolutely have a right to be mad because it is not your responsibility to make them not step out on you and make them be faithful to you. So let me just get that straight right now. So for now, to the best of everybody's knowledge, Candy and Alan's romantic rendezvous had remained a secret to Betty. Pat knew, but he wasn't going to say anything. He wanted to repair his marriage with Candy. He wanted to make it work. They go to this couple's marriage retreat and nobody else knows about the affair. It's a secret that had ended and could die with them. However, about a year later, everything took a dramatic turn and very dangerous turn. As reported by the Dallas Morning News on a fateful Friday 13 June 1980, Candy had gone to Betty's house. She went over there to pick up a swimsuit for Betty's oldest daughter, Alyssa. Alyssa had been planning on spending the night at Kandy and Pat's home because she was hanging out with their daughter and her best friend Jenny, who, remember, they had been best friends at this point now for years. So she was planning on spending the night. Candy popped over to Betty's house to pick up her swimsuit because she had swimming lessons, as shown in both the Hulu and the HBO series. The next thing that happens is that Kandy is covered in blood after picking up this swimsuit and. And in the shower at Betty's house with all of her clothes on, washing all of the blood off of her before leaving Betty's house completely sopping wet. She walked slowly to her car and then drove straight home. The next memory that Candy had was inside of her house where she continued to wash up further. Then she continued on with her day as if nothing had happened. She had lunch and then later picked up her children and her daughter Jenny's best friend Alyssa from Bible school. And that night the Montgomery family and little Alyssa Gore all went to the movies together to see the new Star wars movie that had come out. Now, simultaneously as this was happening, Alan, who happened to be away on a business trip, was attempting to reach his wife Betty. Multiple times he was calling the house landline over and over again, but there was no answer, which was extremely unlike Betty, who would not only usually be sitting around waiting for his call, but would be calling the hotels herself looking for him. So Alan, Alan kept calling and kept calling, but still nothing. At this point, Alan was starting to get worried, so he called Candy because Candy was a friend of Betty's and he called her to see if she knew anything about Betty's whereabouts. Candy said that she had stopped over earlier in the day to pick up that swimsuit for their daughter Alyssa, but that nothing was out of the ordinary. So he called his house a few more times and the phone just rang and rang and rang. Feeling uneasy, he contacted a few of the neighbors and requested that they check on Betty. So three neighbors decide they were going to go over to the house to check on Betty to see if everything was okay. They checked around the house at first, the perimeter with the flashlight, and then they made entry into the house. And when they did that, they found Betty's lifeless body. Her body was inside the utility room, lying on the floor in a pool of blood. And not far away in another room, Betty and Allen's one year old baby was left alone in her crib. And this was a horrifying discovery to the neighbors because they didn't just stumble across a dead body or somebody who was deceased or had died of natural causes. The scene in which they discovered Betty was so brutal, so bloody that nobody even knew cause of death right away. And many speculated that she had died from a gunshot wound. But what they were about to learn was going to haunt everybody in the community and truly horrify those close to the investigation. All while their little one year old baby was in her crib by herself, in her sheets, covered in her own feces. I believe there was vomit as well and had been left there by whatever perpetrator and monster inflicted this horrific murder on Betty, which this particular detail was portrayed in the Hulu and HBO series. And it really, really affected me emotionally when you see the baby crying, screaming, wailing, and you know that that baby had been in that crib by themself for hours on end while their mother just lay a few feet away. So you have this horrifying scene unraveling. And when the police arrived on the scene, they were met with the most gruesome and horrific crime scene of their careers. It was an absolute bloodbath, and there aren't any other words to describe this, guys. It was a true bloodbath. There was blood on almost every single surface of that utility room. And Betty was on the ground, literally chopped up by an axe. She suffered a total of 41 blows with an axe, and her face was completely unrecognizable. The axe was lying in a pool of blood near her body as well. Forensic specialists later observed that the majority of these injuries were inflicted after she had already lost consciousness, which let me just say, thank God that she was not conscious for the majority of those blows, because to be killed by means of an axe, I can't even imagine the fear and the pain that somebody would go through. And Betty was only 30 years old when she was killed.
- [45:39]
A
The Gore family was the last to enter the First United Methodist Church in Wylie. It was filled with 300 who mourned Nancy Gore's axe murderer Friday night at her Wylie home. The event has stunned the small town justice of the peace and acting coroner John Buddy Newton was the first to see Ms. Gore's body. This was a terrible thing to walk in on. You can imagine whatever you think to be the very worst possible thing you could see in the middle of the night and then multiply that by about 6, and maybe you'd have it. Judge Newton says the crime has brought a different atmosphere to the town of 3,000 neighbors. Near the Gore home, the scene of the crime are locking doors they never bothered with. The main street is quiet, and women are fearful.
- [46:17]
B
Wylie's a small town, and a lot of people know everybody around. They've lived around them for years. And we're just scared that it might be somebody we know, you know, someone that we thought was, you know, sweet guy or sweet lady.
- [46:28]
A
The Texas Rangers, state police, Dallas police, the Collin county sheriff are all assisting the frustrated Wylie police department. At present. There are no new leads. This is something that don't happen in Wylie very often. People are scared. They're concerned about it. Everything's pretty well in hand. As the family left the service, state police were on the watch for anything unusual in the crowd, but they witnessed mostly a town in grief.
- [46:52]
B
So now you have Allen, who cannot get a hold of his wife at all. And then he finds out that his wife has been brutally murdered. He calls the Montgomery house, Candy's house, house to check on his daughter Alyssa, who is spending the night there, who is at his ex mistress's house. And he calls them to check on his daughter and to let them know what happened to Betty. Candy answers the phone, answers the landline, off the wall, acting completely normal, like she can't believe what she's hearing and that she's so shocked and just acting completely normal. In this whole situation and in both series, it was initially told to Alan that Betty had been shot, like I said, a few minutes ago. The cause of death was questioned at first because of the amount of blood that was at the scene, which in the Hulu series, when Allan tells Candy this, saying they think she's been shot, Betty's dead. Candy believes that maybe she didn't kill Betty after all, since she didn't use a gun and she used an axe, that maybe the gun was used by somebody else later on. And again, this wasn't the real scenario, but this is how it was depicted in the Hulu series. Candy, like I mentioned earlier, this was an extremely small town. This wasn't some hustle and bustle popular city that has tons of crimes in general, let alone a heinous murder. So this threw everybody into a tailspin. A tailspin of fear, confusion and just absolute terror. As the details of the grisly crime scene spread throughout the town and then later into the local media, housewives were lighting up their phone trees, asking the next wife on the other line, did you hear? Did you hear what happened? Can you believe it? Who do you think it was? There must be some sort of psycho on the loose, a drifter, a mass murderer, a complete maniac, a serial killer. I mean, nobody knew what to think. So you can only imagine the rumors and the speculation that was just going like wildfire through this small town. I mean, nobody knew what to think. And people in the community were terrified that this psychopath was still around, still lurking the streets and lurking These small town neighborhoods. Detectives were at the scene at the Gore home for a very long time. They were processing the crime scene and trying to piece together any evidence that they could collect. And just like in both miniseries, they found a blood stained thumbprint on the freezer door in the utility room. They also found a bloody footprint in the laundry room which was made by a rubber flip flop. They also found traces of blood and hair in the shower, suggesting that the perpetrator had attempted to clean themselves after the incident, but didn't really try to spend the time cleaning up the crime scene at all, as evidenced by what A bloodbath was still in that utility room. And since the perpetrator left the murder weapon behind, there were also no signs of forced entry into the house. So this led detectives to believe that Betty knew whoever murdered her. A very haunting realization to come to the amount of overkill indicated that the axe murderer was in a state of complete rage and that it was likely a crime of passion, which is why detectives initially suspected that Betty's husband, Allen, might be the person responsible for this. The fact that an ax was used in general also led officers to believe that this wasn't planned or premeditated in any way, making this crime more consistent with a crime of opportunity mixed with a crime of passion. Inside the living room, there was a table that had Betty's coffee cup still on it, next to her sewing machine. And also next to that was a business card for Candy's new business. The coffee pot was still turned on and had burnt coffee inside of it, which led investigators to believe that this was some sort of blitz type attack. The coffee was still burning, the mug was still out, things were still askew. And there was a copy of the Dallas morning newspaper dated June 13, 1980, right there on the table. Two tiny blood spatters appeared on the newspaper's corner, near an ad for the movie the Shining, which, coincidentally, is a movie about an ax murderer. In the days after the murder, Candy acted like nothing had happened. She went to church, she spent time with her family, and just acted just completely shocked and dumbfounded as everybody else in the community. However, when Candy got word that the police found a footprint in blood, she immediately cut up those rubber flip flops that she had been wearing that day. She cut them into tiny, tiny pieces and then threw those pieces into the trash, just like depicted in both of the series. So that part really was true. She was going to great lengths to destroy that evidence, to cut it all up, dispose of it, and make sure that the garbage was taken out so nobody could find it and match it to her shoe. When Allen was questioned by the police, they asked if either one of them had had any extramarital affairs. And Allen actually had told them that Betty did have an affair once, but that he had never stepped outside of their marriage. Then a couple of days later, call it guilt, a heavy conscience, whatever you want to call it, he called the police back, and he told them that he lied to them and that he did, in fact, have an affair, but that it was a long time ago, that it was over now, but that he just wanted to come clean. He just Wanted to tell them the truth. And then he drops the bombshell. He tells the police that the person that he had the affair with was none other than Candy Montgomery. And even more, he tells the police that he was the one who ended it with her, giving her means, motive there for the swimsuit. So, opportunity. Now, this was a major problem for Candy, since Candy was admittedly one of the last people to see Betty alive. And she literally placed herself at the scene of the crime with her story. So the police brought her into the station, and they had some questions for her. Candy told the officers about that day, that she went over to the house to grab Alyssa's swimsuit and that she had some coffee with Betty for a few minutes. Minutes. And they got to chatting. While they were having this coffee together, she said that Betty was fine, and then she left. And she went on with her day as planned. That she went to the church luncheon, then picked up her two kids and Alyssa from bible camp, and then they all went to go see that star wars movie. Then the police asked her about her affair with Allan, and Candy admitted it, saying that they broke it off a while ago and that the breakup was mutual and that it was amicable. Both Allen and Candy both told police that to their knowledge, Betty had no idea about the affair. But detectives felt like they couldn't just overlook this affair as something unrelated. Police also noticed some bruising and some cuts that were on Candy's hands and feet during her interview with the police. Additionally, they knew from the size of the footprint they had recovered that whoever had killed Betty was, in fact, a female. So they took her fingerprints and then later asked if she would like to take a polygraph test, to which Candy refused. After this, Candy was spooked. She had a feeling that the police were onto her and that it was only a matter of time before everything caught up with her and she would be arrested. So candy went to the only lawyer that she knew, the only one in town that she knew. And she was later arrested on murder charges, but was released after posting bail for $100,000.
- [54:30]
A
Candace Montgomery surrendered to authorities last night with a curious, bewildering smile. She had been a suspect for more than a week, and her lawyer in the collin county d. A. Had struck an agreement allowing her to turn herself in. Bond was set at $100,000. This morning, her attorney, Robert Yudishin, came to pick her up after securing the money with a local bonding firm. Yudishin would not discuss what his courtroom strategy would be when the case comes to trial. But he maintained that Montgomery was innocent and that the state had a weak case. As far as I could tell, the only thing that the police have supposedly is this one fingerprint that I've read about in the papers.
- [55:08]
B
She went home and resumed life as normal, even attending church in front of people, the same people who were friends with Betty. And she continued denying any wrongdoing of any kind. People in the town too, were appalled and couldn't believe the news. And also it was really hard for them to believe that Candy would have been able to physically use an ax on Betty, especially 41 times. It just seemed so far fetched that nobody was really believing that Candy could have been responsible for this. They thought that she was being targeted by the police and that this was unfair. So that, coupled with Kandi herself advocating for her innocence and that she had nothing to do with it, made everybody believe, in fact, that she didn't have anything to do with this. Even Candy's own husband, Pat, believed that she didn't do this for a very long time. However, she did confide in her defense attorney her version of events so that the defense team knew the truth, or her truth, and knew how to properly defend her. Candy, who was only 30 years old at the time, just like Betty, ended up going to trial in October of 1980 for Betty's murder. Despite the constant media attention and the potential to have an impartial jury or trial, the trial happened in Collin county where the crime took place. According to reports at the time, three of the people on the 12 person jury were personal friends of Candy's or her attorneys. I mean, the definition of conflict of interest right now, this is where it gets a little bit fuzzy as we only know Candy's side of the story and the side of the story that she told her defense attorney. Because we know that Betty cannot speak for herself. But here's how her version of events went down that day. She stated that she had left the church to go visit Betty's house to collect a swimsuit for Betty's daughter. Since the girls were having a sleepover at the Montgomery house later that evening. According to her, after some small talk, Betty ended up confronting her about the affair that she had with Allen. Because of this confrontation and being caught off guard, Candy allegedly confessed to the affair and informed Betty that it had ended a long time ago. She said that Betty didn't believe her and kept saying, and I quote, you can't have him, you can't have him. Then Candy claimed that Betty, while pretending to go and get Alyssa's swimsuit for Candy instead went to the garage and grabbed an axe. She said that Betty tried to hit her with the axe, and when she swung it, the axe actually hit Candy's toe. So at that point, Candy says, the two women began wrestling for control of the axe, which Candy eventually managed to grab. During this fight for the axe, Candy's hairline was struck by the axe and cut her and resulted in some blood. During the altercation, Candy also suffered bruises on her head and her body. So after that, Candy gained control of the axe and ended up killing Betty with it, striking her 41 times. The defense team argued that Candy's alleged murder of Betty was a case of self defense, as Candy had initially asserted. Now, at first glance, this argument seemed insane, given the exact extent of Betty's injuries and the fact that Candy had hit her with the axe 41 times. Even continuing after, she clearly was deemed incapacitated and could not defend herself and was unconscious. However, the defense introduced a psychiatrist from Houston who had evaluated Candy, including conducting hypnosis. The psychiatrist testified that Candy had undergone a disassociative event, implying that the confrontation with Betty prompted a psychological response, resulting in Candy becoming unaware of her actions and being consumed by a blind rage. The psychiatrist said that Candy had been injured with a sharp object on her head during her childhood, which caused her to bleed profusely. And as she cried, her mother shook her and raised her finger to her lip, saying, shh, Candy. Shh, Candy. Be quiet. And telling Candy that she couldn't cry at the hospital because what would people think of her? So Candy claimed that Betty made that same gesture and same sound during their altercation, which the psychiatrist explained caused Candy to lose complete control. So basically, his theory was that Candy experienced a disassociative reaction, then entered an unconscious state of rage as she hit Betty with an axe. And that. That's why afterward, she didn't realize that she did it. And get this, guys. The jury completely bought it. After four and a half hours of deliberation, the jury returned a verdict of not guilty. Candy was acquitted of murder and once again became a free woman. The courtroom was absolutely filled with anger, shock, and complete disbelief as Candy left the courthouse. People were enraged, just screaming at her, calling her a murderer as she got into her car, and she and Pat drove away.
- [60:26]
A
After hearing testimony and closing summations for seven days, it only took three and one half hours for the jury to render its verdict. Judge Tom Ryan read it to the court late this afternoon. Candace Montgomery is not guilty of either Murder or voluntary mass manslaughter. Montgomery wept and hugged her husband, then was quickly taken out of the courthouse while reporters were kept inside, unable to get a reaction. For defense attorney Don Crowder, a big victory. This was his first felony criminal trial, and he was confident of the outcome. I'm just very pleased. I'm not stunned by the jury verdict. I'm not shocked. We had a good jury. We thought we had a good jury from the outset. And, you know, I think they did a very conscientious job, obviously. The victim's husband, Alan Gore, slipped quietly away from the commotion. Many people who sat through the trial as spectators expressed shock at the verdict. One woman telling me the decision was a poor reflection on the community. To hack somebody to death 41 times.
- [61:27]
B
There'S just no reason. I just think it's terrible. It's truly just unbelievable because when you look at the details on the surface of this case, it looks pretty clear. I don't necessarily think that self defense would consist of 41 axe wounds, but I'm not a professional, apparently. But I don't know, it's hard for me to believe. So did the jury truly think that she was innocent and not guilty of this? The fact that she personally knew and her attorney personally knew three out of the 12 jurors, could that have been why she was found not guilty? We already know the entire town didn't think Kandy was capable of this. So then when she spun the self defense narrative, was it easier for them to believe to be able to justify how she could have physically done this? It's unbelievable. Shortly after Betty was murdered, Allen actually eventually got remarried and eventually lost custody of both daughters. After Betty's parents were awarded sole custody, there were allegations of neglect and other inhumane treatment from the children. But honestly, there aren't very many details about that online, understandably so. So it's hard to know what's true and what's not true. Allen's second marriage didn't last long, though, and now he lives in Florida with a longtime girlfriend. After her trial, Candy and Pat moved to Georgia with their kids in hopes of a fresh start. Which, yeah, I mean, I get that. They did want a fresh start, to say the least, and they needed to get the heck out of Dodge and get the heck out of that town. Candy and Pat stay married for a few years, but then ultimately later ended up getting a divorce. Now get this. As if this story couldn't get even crazier. It's going to, guys. There is another twist that nobody could have saw coming. So the trial's over. Alan's remarried, then he's not. Then he's living with a longtime girlfriend in Florida. Candy and Pat move to Georgia trying to have a happy ending and end up getting divorced anyway. Well, after her divorce, Candy changed her name from Candy Montgomery to Candy Wheeler, which is her maiden name. And she ended up working as a mental health therapist to teenagers suffering from depression. And she worked alongside her daughter Jenny. Candy is now 73 years old. And since this whole thing went down in 1980, she hasn't had any run ins with police or been involved in any other crime. So was this really an isolated incident and was this self defense? What is the truth here? Do you believe Candy? I mean, I have to agree with the police that 41 times with an axe is the most outrageous claim of self defense that I have ever heard. I could maybe see it a little bit more if Betty was some huge man and Candy really was in fear for her life, or if there were maybe more wounds on Kandi than there really were, but I mean, it just still seems so, so, so extreme. Then again, I've never been accosted with an axe before, so I don't know. But if Candy's story is true, I can imagine that it would be terrifying to be arguing with somebody one minute and then them re emerging holding an axe. That would be absolutely so scary. But still, 41 times. I mean, are you serious? And why would Betty, this Susie homemaker, teacher, and avid churchgoer, go and grab an axe? Was she in a blind rage? We know she hated when her husband was away, so did she feel that she had possession over him? Did she not want to lose her happy marriage? And is she the one who flew into a blind rage and grabbed that axe? It's true that people really can flip, but I mean, come on. Damn, that's extreme. The exact nature of Betty's mental health issues remains unknown. So again, I don't want to speculate too much into that, but maybe she was super pissed and felt like Kandy was going to take her man and take her happy life and she was just seeing red. The red mist just came over her. I don't know. We know that she was at least struggling with some form of depression and didn't like Alan being away and leaving town. And it seemed like they had a very dependent relationship, at least from Betty's side. So is that possible? But going back to Candy really quick, if. And that is a big if, if it was truly a case of self defense, why not call the police after? Why go home and try to clean it up? Why throw your bloody clothes in the washer and dryer and then act like you had nothing to do with it for days? Why cut up your flip flops? Why tell police you had nothing to do with it when questioned? Why not just say it was self defense from the get go? This case is one of the most insane cases that I've heard and every time I go through it in my mind. I don't necessarily see Candy as a brutal axe murderer that just went over to kill Betty randomly, but the evidence sure seems to seem like she was. Was Candy mad that Allen ended the affair and was now going to be in a happy marriage with his wife? Did she need to get Betty out of the way so that she could get back that thrill she was having so that she could get back in Allen's life and so the affair, or at least sexual escapades, could resume? Because I guess it wouldn't be an affair at that point if Betty were dead. Is that why she wanted to get rid of Betty? Because Betty was in her way? What do you guys think? I mean, it's pretty brazen that you're still having the daughter over for sleepovers and hosting baby showers and like acting like you're her best friend. Then you go over there and you kill her with an ax. Is it more single white female or is it self defense? Now overall, I said there were some stark differences between the true story and both series. Overall, I enjoyed both series and I do think that they did a good job of portraying the story without twisting things up too, too, too much or blurring the lines a ton between reality and drama. Although there were of course a few discrepancies. But I guess it's like they say, sometimes real life truly is stranger than fiction. And this is absolutely one of those cases. So I hope you enjoyed the episode. I am very, very curious to know what it is you think about this case. So if you are listening to the podcast version, please take a second. If you're listening in Spotify and go on the poll that I posted. Do you think this was self defense or do you think that this was more sinister and intentional from Candy? Go on Spotify, give your answer to that poll. Or if you are watching the video version of this later on in the week, let me know in the comment section below. As a reminder, new episodes of Serial Lessly come out every single Monday. They drop on the podcast first. They will be available via video a few days later in the week or maybe about a week later. So if you want to have first dibs, first access to listening and hearing these cases and these case updates, make sure you're following along the podcast. It's available wherever you get your podcast. And as another little caveat to that, in addition to Mondays, I have been posting bonus episodes on the podcast. I think I mentioned that at the top of this video as we're getting trial updates and new things are dropping. So make sure you're following along on the podcast so that you don't miss any of those. And if you enjoyed this episode and you're enjoying this podcast, if you're checking it out for the first time, please take a quick second to rate and review this episode. It totally helps the podcast out, helps the algorithm, helps get more people to learn about the podcast and see it come across their page. So I appreciate you taking the time to do so. As always, you can find me on Instagram at underscore Annealise where I post all breaking news, updates, updates and keep you guys well informed over there as things are happening in real time. So that's the spiel. I told you guys everything. I broke it all down for you. Thank you so much for tuning in with me today and I will see you bright and early next Monday for an all new episode of Serial Less Ly. Unless I see you sooner for a bonus episode. Guess you'll have to stay tuned and see.
- [69:14]
A
Sa. Sam.