361: My Sit Down with Nancy Grace: Kohberger Posed Victims Bodies? Monique Tepe Shot MULTIPLE Times?!

Summary

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Serialously with Annie Elise

Episode 361: My Sit Down with Nancy Grace: Kohberger Posed Victims Bodies? Monique Tepe Shot MULTIPLE Times?!

Date: February 2, 2026
Host: Annie Elise
Guest: Nancy Grace

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Episode Overview

In this gripping episode, Annie Elise sits down with renowned legal analyst and true crime host Nancy Grace for a deep dive into several notorious cases: the Idaho murders committed by Brian Kohberger, the shocking Monique and Spencer Tepe case, and reflections on the Casey Anthony trial. Nancy offers candid, unfiltered takes—dispelling myths, sharing prosecutorial insights, and delivering memorable moments and strong opinions throughout. The conversation is fast-paced, rich with details, and peppered with both professional wisdom and personal anecdotes.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Idaho Murders & Brian Kohberger ([01:49]–[25:53])

Details on Victims and Crime Scene ([01:49]–[03:30])

• Annie recaps the brutality revealed in newly unsealed documents:
  • Kaylee Goncalves: Stabbed 38 times (24 to face, scalp, neck)
  • Maddie Mogen: 28 times (13 to face, scalp, neck)
  • Xana Kernodle: 67 times (23 to face, scalp, neck)
  • Ethan Chapin: 17 times (4 to face, scalp, neck)
• Emphasis on the concentrated violence, especially injuries to the victims’ faces, suggesting possible motivation linked to hatred or misogyny.

Nancy Grace on Motive and Prosecutorial Focus ([03:30]–[07:08])

• Nancy underscores that “why” (motive) isn’t necessary to prove in court but offers analysis on destruction of beauty and identity:
  • “He was destroying the beauty of these victims... Her teeth were stabbed out of her mouth. Her teeth were around her.” – Nancy ([05:05])
  • Asserts this goes to a deep-seated hatred or misogyny.
• Annie asks if Kaylee was the specific target; Nancy clarifies the attack was premeditated, with stalking and planning involved—disputing the idea of a wild "rampage".

Targeting, Planning, and Online Theories ([07:08]–[09:55])

• Discussion on whether there was a specific intended victim; Nancy emphasizes long planning and stalking, both in person and digitally.
• Addresses online proponents for Kohberger’s innocence (“Pro Burgers”):
  • “He pled guilty under oath. In a court of law, he did it.” – Nancy ([09:30])
  • “Sing it to somebody that cares.” – Nancy ([09:51])

The “Posed” Victims Allegation ([09:55]–[14:39])

• Annie brings up defense claims that Kaylee and Maddie were “posed” after death.
• Nancy explains “posed” and “staged” as terms of art—tampering with a crime scene:
  • “Anytime you tamper with a scene... that's staging. That means typically not random.” ([13:08])
  • Sees the staging as probative: planned, not a spontaneous burglar, and argues it demonstrates the crime was intentional and premeditated.

Kohberger’s Modus Operandi and Motivations ([14:39]–[19:34])

• Annie probes deeper into incel theories and possible motives:
  • Nancy details Kohberger’s background: struggles with women, drug addiction, failed attempts at law enforcement careers.
  • Motive as “devil’s brew”: need to prove himself, hatred for women, and desire to emulate violent criminals he studied.
  • “The four victims were guinea pigs. He wanted to prove he could do it and not get caught. He wanted to be master of his craft.” – Nancy ([18:24])
  • Nancy refers to Kohberger as “personified evil” and closes the segment with “may he rot in hell.”

Prosecution Decisions & Nancy’s Take ([24:36]–[25:53])

• Annie asks what Nancy would have done differently as prosecutor:
  • “Number one, I would have had the balls to take it to trial. Let's just start with that.” – Nancy ([24:36])
  • Criticizes plea deals on overwhelming evidence cases and says prosecutors should be willing to risk trial, especially in death penalty cases.

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2. Monique and Spencer Tepe Case ([25:53]–[38:01])

Case Recap and Initial Questions ([25:53]–[27:37])

• Annie provides context: the couple gunned down with two young children present; weeks without arrest; Monique’s ex-husband, Michael McKee, later charged amid revelations of a decade of abuse and threats.

Stalking, Planning, and the Night of the Murder ([27:37]–[33:52])

• Nancy Grace breaks down the surveillance, stalking, and McKee’s possible activities:
  • “He was caught on a neighbor's surveillance video entering the curtilage... He was seen getting over the fence into the backyard... He got access into the home proper. What did he do in there? I don't know... he knew where he was going the night of the murders.” ([28:00])
  • Suggests McKee was obsessively monitoring Monique and possibly escalating.
  • Discloses bombshell: “Everyone thinks that Spencer was shot multiple times and Monique was shot once. That is not true... Monique Tepe by shooting the victim multiple times with a firearm. She was shot multiple times, too, according to this document. Which means to me, he unloaded the gun on both of them.” ([33:30])

Duration of Grudges in Domestic Homicide ([33:52]–[35:38])

• Annie asks about the rarity of such a long-harbored grudge.
  • “I'd have to say no... Dr. McKee is the first one I've seen that nursed his hatred for nearly a decade.” – Nancy ([34:18])
  • Reveals allegations of rape and abuse during the marriage.

Advice for the Prosecutors ([35:38]–[38:01])

• Nancy advises the local prosecutor, new to homicide trials, to defer to more experienced colleagues:
  • “Let the vets try the case... I would not trust this to a first time homicide prosecutor... You work up to that.” – Nancy ([35:50])

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3. Casey Anthony Case Reflection ([38:01]–[56:14])

Coverage and Memorable Interviews ([43:35]–[46:23])

• Annie invites Nancy to reflect on past coverage; Nancy remembers interviews with:
  • Judge Belvin Perry, who presided over the trial and knew Casey’s responsibility.
  • George and Cindy Anthony: “delightful, smart, kind, caring people” cruelly vilified while they grieved.

Bodyguard and Family Dynamics ([46:23]–[49:14])

• Nancy recounts a revealing anecdote: upon release from jail, Casey’s first words were, “what’s for supper?”—suggesting lack of maternal concern.
• Recalls George Anthony’s desperate confrontation with Casey and how the parents’ actions suggest their innocence in Caylee’s disappearance.

Peacock Documentary & Admission of Lies ([49:14]–[51:10])

• Casey Anthony’s docuseries and acknowledgment that “Zanny the nanny” never existed:
  • Nancy never watched it, doesn’t derive validation from Casey admitting her lies: “I already knew she lied.”
  • Strongly rejects giving Casey Anthony a platform.

Legal Theories and Personal Position ([51:21]–[56:14])

• Nancy declines participating in pro-Casey documentaries due to lack of editorial control and critique of their focus.
• Explains possible legal theories: felony murder, child abuse, “abandoned and malignant heart.”
  • “That is murder on several different levels. It could be felony murder, which is a death that occurs during the commission of a felony... There are several legal theories under which topmom could be prosecuted for murder...” – Nancy ([54:15])
• Believes jury misunderstood the law and reiterates her position that Casey is responsible for Caylee’s death.

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4. Ellen Greenberg Case ([56:14]–[58:40])

• Nancy expresses deep support for further investigations into Ellen Greenberg’s suspicious “suicide.”
  • “Do I think she was murdered? Yes. You cannot stab yourself over 20 times in the back, including severing your dura...” – Nancy ([58:25])
  • Calls for federal involvement, denounces political entanglements that hampered justice.

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5. Lightning Round: Nancy's Hot Takes ([59:17]–[62:13])

Barry Morphew ([59:17])

• References tranquilizer found in Suzanne Morphew’s system, points to Barry’s unique access.

Jodi Arias ([59:47])

• “Jodi Arias, the ultimate grifter and con who actually shot a bird at me in the courtroom.... She changed her story multiple times... Rot in hell Arias.” – Nancy ([59:52])

Scott Peterson ([60:43])

• Details Peterson’s lack of emotion after being told the bodies of Lacey and Connor were found:
  • “Within 15 minutes... he goes, hey, can we drive through In-N-Out. I want a double double with cheese and a shake. Really?” – Nancy ([60:47])

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “He was destroying the beauty of these victims.” – Nancy Grace ([05:00])
• “He pleaded guilty under oath. In a court of law, he did it.” – Nancy Grace ([09:30])
• “I don’t get validation from [Casey Anthony] admitting she lied. I already knew she lied.” – Nancy Grace ([51:10])
• “Jodi Arias, the ultimate grifter and con who actually shot a bird at me in the courtroom…” – Nancy Grace ([59:52])
• On Scott Peterson’s reaction to news of Lacey and Connor’s deaths: “He wants an effing double double with cheese. Anything else?” – Nancy Grace ([61:24])

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Timeline of Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment/Topic | |------------|------------------------------------------------| | 01:49 | Introduction of Nancy Grace and Kohberger case | | 03:30 | Motive and brutality in Idaho stabbings | | 07:08 | Stalking, targeting, and online debate | | 09:55 | Discussion on victims being “posed” | | 14:39 | Kohberger’s possible motives and background | | 24:36 | Prosecutorial decisions in Kohberger case | | 25:53 | Monique & Spencer Tepe case overview | | 27:37 | Michael McKee surveillance, stalking, plans | | 33:52 | Duration of grudge in domestic homicide | | 35:38 | Advice for Franklin county prosecutor | | 38:01 | Start of Casey Anthony case reflection | | 43:35 | Memorable interviews, George & Cindy Anthony | | 46:23 | Bodyguard’s account & family dynamics | | 49:14 | Docuseries and “Zanny the nanny” | | 51:21 | On refusing to participate in Casey docs | | 54:15 | Legal theory explanations on murder | | 56:14 | Ellen Greenberg case & federal involvement | | 59:17 | Hot Takes: Morphew, Arias, Peterson | | 62:21 | Nancy Grace plugs her platforms |

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Tone & Language

True to the show’s conversational, unsparing style, both Annie and Nancy speak candidly and often bluntly, especially on the justice system’s failings and infamous defendants. Nancy’s legal explanations are interspersed with personal anecdotes and vivid analogies, maintaining an accessible, no-nonsense tone throughout.

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Final Thoughts

This episode delivered everything Serialously listeners expect: deeply researched case details, sharp legal insight, unfiltered hot takes, and a sense of community for true crime aficionados. Nancy Grace’s authoritative voice pairs perfectly with Annie’s inquisitive, empathetic hosting—making this a must-listen for anyone passionate about true crime and legal analysis.

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Transcript

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[Annie]

Hey, true crime besties. Welcome back to an all new episode of Serial Asleep. Hello and welcome back to Serialist. Today I am joined by somebody you all know, former prosecutor, never afraid to tell it like it is, host of Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Nancy Grace, welcome to the show.

[Nancy Grace]

Thank you for inviting me. It's a real honor.

[Annie]

Well, thank you so much for joining. I actually have so many questions about cases that you have covered in the past, in your career that you are currently ongoing investigating and covering. So I want to just jump right in and I actually want to start with the news in Idaho and Brian Coburger, because as we all know, Brian Coburger pleaded guilty back in July of 2025, 2025, to the brutal slaying of the four college students. And we all knew that it was extremely horrifying what he did and the manner of deaths and everything that happened. However, a newly unsealed document was released that outlines just how barbaric it truly was. It indicates that Bryan Coburger stabbed these victims over 150. And I have a very specific question I want to ask you, but before I get into that, I just want to outline how they broke it down. It was starting with Kaylee Gonzalez. She was stabbed 38 times, 24 of which were to her face, scalp and neck. Maddie Mogan, 28 times, 13 of which were to her Face, scalp, and neck. Zanner Kernodle, 67 times, 23 of which were to her face, scalp, and neck. And Ethan Chapin 17 times, four of which were to his face, scalp, and neck. Now, we know that Zanna fought back. We heard that early on based on her injuries and just how horrible that crime scene looked. And that also explains why her injuries were nearly double, if not triple, the other victims. But my question for you is, why did Brian focus so many of the stabbings on their face, scalp, and neck area?

[Nancy Grace]

Annie, again, thank you for inviting me. That is a question the prosecution does not have to answer at trial. The question, why? That goes to motive. The state is never required to prove motive because it asks the prosecutor to go into the mind of literally an evil killer. A lot of people don't use the word evil, evil, or the devil or satan. But I think that all of that is personified in Brian Kohberger. Why did he do what he did? We'll never know. But I can tell you this, Annie. I have seen multiple cases where the victim is attacked specifically in the face. Often we see women attacked in the genitals, the breast, the crotch area, the vaginal area, which indicates a sex motivation, even if the victim isn't sex assaulted. In a lot of killings related to hatred of homosexuals, of gay people, you will see their genitals mutilated, which gives you a very strong indicator of motive. They are driven by hatred of either misogyny or hatred because of someone, because they're gay. But again, the state doesn't have to prove that. This is what my takeaway is. He was destroying the beauty of these victims. Kelly Gonsalves was stabbed so many times in the face that her teeth were. Were stabbed out of her mouth. Her teeth were around her. And that's what Mr. And Mrs. Gonsalves, Steve and Christie have to think about. I don't know how they think about anything else. And then when you look at Santa's 67 stab wounds because she dared to fight back. And in the midst of this, Annie, you have the roommate hearing Co Burger say, I'm here to help you. And then stabbing the victim multiple times in the face, destroying their beauty, wiping out their identity. It's heinous. It's evil. And to me, it goes to motivation, which would be one of the first things I argued to. I would argue to the jury if we had had that opportunity and were not given a weak prosecutor that didn't have the spine to take the case to trial.

[Annie]

You bring up an Interesting point. Regarding the hatred and that being a potential motivation and destroying their beauty. And early on, a lot of people, I think, assumed that Kaylee was Brian's target and that he went there specifically for her. Not only because of the level of injuries, but also because of the blunt force trauma and the facial injuries that caused her facial disfigurement. But now that we have seen the autopsy results and the way that this attack was so brutal on all of the victims, do you think that with the evidence that's been made public, she was the target? Do you think there was a target, a specific target, or he just wanted to go on a rampage?

[Nancy Grace]

I don't know if rampage, and I've used it myself, would be the right description because a rampage seems to indicate a blind, wild criminal spree. This was not blind. This was pre planned. He had stalked these victims, not necessarily in the traditional sense of the word, but he had driven by their home over and over and over. I believe he stalked them online. I believe that he went into their places of work, maybe even onto their campus to spy on them. As it turns out, when he first moved to Pullman, he went to a pool party. And at that pool party he took a lot of pictures of women and spoke to them at the pool party. Some of those, at least one of those women were online friends of with the victims. I don't know if that's how he first became aware of them, but likely. And the stalking began. So this was not a wild blind rampage. This was very well thought out. Who was the victim? You can't go by the number of wounds alone because you see Zanna with 67 wounds. That doesn't mean she was the original victim. That means most likely that she fought back and sustained more injuries. Who was the original victim? We don't know. But I also know that Kohberger had shown an interest, and this is from his digital footprint in sex assaulting. Women that were passed out, were comatose, were asleep, or in this case asleep. And he came onto something very, very different. They were awake and he had to fight tooth and nail to murder them. I don't know what his original plan was, nor do I care. He murdered them. And I don't think one day goes by that some ding dong online doesn't say. Why do you insist Kohberger is guilty? He was framed or he had a co defendant or an accomplice. He pled guilty under oath. In a court of law, he did it.

[Annie]

That infuriates me as well. I think that that Group has now dubbed themselves the Pro Burgers, and they advocate for his innocence.

[Nancy Grace]

That don't care. Don't care what they call themselves.

[Annie]

I'm with you. I'm with you.

[Nancy Grace]

Sing it to somebody that cares.

[Annie]

Now, speaking of him not perhaps expecting what he. What he saw when he went into the home and expecting people to be awake and being caught off guard, A forensic scientist from Brian's defense team has said that Kaylee and Maddie were posed in bed together after being killed. Specifically that Kaylee was moved from her head being on the pillow to on top of Maddie, and then the comforter was pulled over them. I thought it was really interesting that he used the word posed, because I think that it could perhaps be that or that Brian was trying to conceal the crime that he had committed so that when people walked into the room, perhaps it would be a little bit, you know, delayed in seeing what had really transpired. But what is your opinion in hearing that?

[Nancy Grace]

Posed is a term of art in the criminal world. It staged is a term of art in the criminal world, which means that the scene was tampered with. That's really all that means. But I agree with your analysis that they were posed. Why put one female victim on top of the other? That's posing. That's in the traditional sense. Anytime you tamper with a scene, whether you turn off the lights, whether you put a blanket over the victim's face, which I've seen in many, many murder cases. I had one case that I looked at where a mom was murdered in her home. She was found on her bed completely naked, but the killer had taken a wicker bathroom basket, trash can and put it over her head. What a demeaning way for your body to be found by homicide detectives. I've seen many cases where a sweater or a blanket was put over the victim's face or over their body. I worked on a case where a victim was covered in leaves. In the Delphi double murders of Abby and Libby, for instance, the girls were covered with limbs, tree limbs and twigs and brush. You ever seen a dog circle three or four times before it sits down? Have you ever seen that, Annie?

[Annie]

Mm, Yes, I have.

[Nancy Grace]

Why? Why? I don't know why, but I know dogs have been doing it since thousands of years before we came to the world. It's instinctive. Did Kohberger intend to cover up their faces? Don't know. Don't care. But he did. I think it's something instinctive that, you know, there's a lot of theories the killer doesn't Want the victims looking at them. They don't want to see their faces after, in this case, disfiguring them. They are repulsed by the victims. They are repulsed by the victims as they look in death. It could be any number of things, but what does it mean to me? All I care is about its probative value. What can I prove? I learned in court. If you could see the stacks of paper on my desk right now, and I'm working on. Have been working on the TEPE story. Just stacks and stacks of facts that I've amassed. All of them are not probative. They can't prove something in court for me, if I can't use it to prove something, it doesn't exist. I need every scrap, every scintilla, every shred of evidence to prove something. This proves something. This proves to me that the murder was not random. This wasn't somebody that just broke in to burglarize or rape and went, oh, and then killed the victims and ran. No, this killer took time to stage the scene. Whether it was just turning off the lights or moving the body or putting a blanket over the face, it doesn't matter. That's staging. That means typically not random. If it was a random burglar that lost it and killed the victims, they would run. They wouldn't take time to stage the scene. Not random, which is probative. It proves to me it was someone that picked out these victims to kill. It's probative.

[Annie]

That's an interesting point you make because based on your experience as a prosecutor and your knowledge of the case, what do you believe Brian Coburger's MO is? There's been the term incel thrown around as well as far as who he was and what could have potentially motivated him. What do you think? Do you think he just wanted. He had a thirst to kill and he had been planning this. He wanted to be smarter and prove he was smarter. What do you think it is?

[Nancy Grace]

I've thought about this a lot, which, of course, none of this is probative, but I have thought about a lot because I think I was about five years into felony prosecutions. Nothing but. But felonies. And at that point I developed an expertise. I was dealing with nothing but hardcore, typically murder, serial murder, mass murder, serial rape, serial child molestation, and any type of arson, which is extremely difficult to prove. And I was sitting in court looking over at the defendant. The jury wasn't there, of course, because I wouldn't look at the defendant in front of the jury. And I was Thinking, why did he leave this wake of pain behind him? You know, like a speedboat leaving a wake that would touch so many lives. And I can speak to the truth of that. My fiance was murdered shortly before our wedding. I dropped out of school. My dream of becoming a Shakespearean literature professor was over. My dream of being a wife and a mother and having a families over destroyed. And because of that, over 20 years passed before I could bring myself to have that dream again. And I was an older, pregnant mom. Highly, highly risky. And my daughter Lucy. And I almost died because I gave birth so late in life. My little girl. It affected my life, my decisions, my career as it is. The way I raise my children, the way I see the world, everything. So I was sitting in court, looking and thinking, why would you leave that wake of pain and ruin so many lives? And then it hit me like a thunderbolt. Why ask why? You're wasting your time. That said, I will entertain your question as to motive. Think about Kohberger. Who was he before the murders? His sister had described him as a fat slob. We don't use the f word in our home. Fat. Her words, not mine. A heroin addiction. Couldn't get a job. Tried repeatedly to get on with police departments. So, like what? Barney fife couldn't get on. He had to prove himself. He had to be the star of something. So he began his studies in criminal procedure and criminology. He studied to the point where he was hired as a teaching assistant. Gets into a graduate degree program at wsu, Washington State University in Pullman. And he conducted all of these interviews with hardened criminals about their motivation and how they got caught and how they targeted their victim and what went through their mind at the time of the murder. And he'd pick felons that had committed violent crimes like rape, like homicide. Almost as if he was trying to live vicariously through them. And I believe that the four victims were guinea pigs. He wanted to prove he could do it and not get caught. He wanted to feel what they felt, the other criminals. And he wanted to be master of his craft. That's why I think he did it. That's why I think he picked these victims. And a deep, deep misogyny. Hatred of women. Yeah, maybe because he couldn't get a woman. I don't know why he hated women, but he obviously did. So you mix all that together and you get a devil's brew. Personified by Brian Kohberger. May he rot in hell.

[Annie]

Amen. And he obviously was not smart enough to get away with it. And the evidence that even has been made public to this day has been overwhelming. Which leads me to my last question regarding Coburger. And then I want to jump into the TEPE case, which you had mentioned earlier. January is always that reset moment for me. New year. Fresh energy and really looking at what actually supports my health. And if you've ever stood in the supplement aisle just feeling completely overwhelmed, you're not alone, trust me. Story of my life. I feel like the supplement industry is honestly this like low trust category. It's slightly regulated, labels can be misleading and you're kind of just expected to take companies at their word. And that's exactly why I partnered with Momentous. They have built a high trust brand in a low trust space. They've done this by committing to what they call the momentous standard, quality testing and transparency. That's done in the right way. Every product is independently certified by NSF for sport or informed sport, which means it's rigorously tested for contaminants, banned substances and label accuracy. They only use the highest quality ingredients, from grass fed European whey protein to the purest form of creatine, monohydrate, hydrate, no fillers, no artificial sweeteners. And if something doesn't meet their standards, it never hits the shelves. Which I feel like that's so incredibly helpful and great. Right? It's like you know that you're getting quality, whether it's creatine, creapure, whatever it is you're looking for to help with your wellness journey. And right now, Momentous is offering our listeners up to 35 off your first order. Just use promo code annie. Head to livemomentous.com and use promo code Annie for up to 35 off your first order. That's livemomentous.com promo code Annie.

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[Annie]

Like January, at least for me, it's always that moment where I look at my credit card and I go oh, oh, okay, time to rein it in a little bit. We didn't realize we went so crazy on the gifts and the food and all that last month. And so I mean between whether you were traveling, food, gifts, like I said, it just adds up so quickly and that's why switching to Mint Mobile will make so much sense for you. I made the switch a long time ago, so sorry but I'm not going to like Gatekeep and I'm also but I also did get the jump on you. No offense, but I used to be with one of those like big wireless plans where the bill just kept creeping up every month. I thought it was a flat rate, but then it was not because I went over my data, the texts, all that stuff. And with Mint Mobile you're cutting out all of the unnecessary extras. Yet you're still getting high speed data, unlimited talk and text and it's all on the nation's largest 5G network. And you get it for way I use Mint Mobile and you definitely should too. And let me just tell you too, the switch is so easy. I brought my phone number over. I kept my same phone. It took me about 15 minutes to do it. It was so easy and just such a no brainer. And right now Mint Mobile's end of year sale is still going, but only through the end of the month. But if you act fast, you can get 50% off unlimited premium wireless for 3, 6 or 12 months. You like I said, you keep your same phone, same number, all your contacts. It's a super easy switch. And all plans start at $15 a month. So this January, quit overspending on wireless and go to mintmobile.comae that's mintmobile.com ae to get started. Limited time offer upfront payment of $45 for three months, $90 for six months or $180 for 12 months. Plan required $15 a month equivalent taxes and fees. Extra initial plan term only over 50 gigabytes. May slow when network is busy. Capable device required Availability, speed and coverage varies. Cement mobile.com. If you had been the prosecuting attorney on this case, what would you have done differently?

[Nancy Grace]

Number one, I would have had the balls to take it to trial. Let's just start with that. Trial is never easy. It's arduous, it's painful. And this would have been a long trial, too. But that's why you're elected to the district attorney's position. That's why you get paid. You don't get paid to hide in your office and take cheap pleas. That is not what is expected of you. So effing do it. Get in there and try the case. Overwhelming evidence of guilt. There's never a slam dunk. Do I have to say O.J. simpson? But there was so much evidence in this case. I mean, if you're gonna have the death penalty, and I'm not preaching pro or anti death penalty right now, but if you're in a jurisdiction with the death penalty and you are the elected da, you're just a house pet sitting in your office. You're afraid to get out there and try the case. Get in the ring, get dirty, sweat, bleed, but try the case. I mean, I don't know if they reelect him. It's on them.

[Annie]

Yeah, I know so many people were angered with that and still are angry with that. So thank you for sharing your opinion on that. I want to move into the Tepe murders. You mentioned you have stacks and stacks of paperwork regarding this case. And this is relatively perfect because I have a lot of questions now for anybody who's listening who's a bit unfamiliar. Back on December 30, 2025, Spencer and Monique Tepe were gunned down in their home while their 1 year old and 4 year old children were inside the home, luckily left physically unharmed. However, weeks went by without any arrests until finally an arrest was made and it was Monique's ex husband of nearly a decade ago, Michael McKee, 39 years old, which shocked everybody, I think, to be like, it's been 10 years almost since you divorced. How long has he been in the picture? Has he been harboring a Grud? And court documents do allege a history of threats and abuse stemming from Michael toward Monique, not only during their marriage, but after their marriage as well. And the probable cause affidavit that was just released regarding the arrest and things regarding this case, it showed that Michael McKee was actually at the house on December 6, which was 24 days before the murders happen. Now, luckily, Spencer and Monique were at a football game that night, so nothing happened. However, based on your knowledge and what you have been covering and looking into, do you think that Michael was there casing the area, getting familiar, or do you think he was intending to actually kill them 24 days earlier?

[Nancy Grace]

I think he knew their movements. I don't know if he hacked into their email. I don't know if something was mentioned on social media that they were going to the championship playoff in Indianapolis, the Big Ten playoff. I think he knew that they were gone. He was caught on a neighbor's surveillance video entering the curtilage, which is a legal term of art, meaning the area surrounding your home or your domicile. It could be an apartment. It could be a camper. It could be a tent. What is curtilage? It could be a garage. It could be a portico. It could be a tool shed. It could be a disconnected garage. It could be a dollhouse. It could be a doghouse in the backyard. You typically, under the law, do not need a separate search warrant to search the cartilage. But this is what I think happened. Looking at the outside of the tepe home Monique and Spencer shared with her two children, there was an enclosed back. I'll call it a yard, but it was bricked over. There was a little bit of grass surrounding the brick. And it was. From what I can see, Annie was. The fence was attached to the house. Here's the house, and there's a little bit of fence on either side which is attached to the house. And that fence goes around the back and completely encloses the back area. From looking at the wedding photos where Monique and Spencer are standing in the backyard, yes, they were married and murdered in that same home. That fence looks to be at least 4 to 5ft tall. And it's solid. You can't see through it. The affidavit states that surveillance reveals Dr. Michael McKee, the murdered defendant, entered the cartilage of the home. That doesn't mean he was seen entering the front door. What does that tell me? He was seen getting over the fence into the backyard area, such as it is. On the back of the home, there is a door entrance and either a basement door or window entrance. And he stayed in there for hours, which means, to me, he got access into the home proper. What did he do in there? I don't know. Go through her underwear drawer, look at scrapbooks, look at the wedding album, Go in the children's room he had on his dating website. He wanted children. And as he sat gnashing his teeth and twisting his tail, he watched Monique remarry to the man of her dreams, Mr. Right, not Mr. Right now and have two beautiful children. He probably saw christening photos. No telling what he saw. Now, Monique did not keep a social media profile. She's probably too scared to. But it leaked out. Family members, friends would post pictures, and the wedding video was posted by a relative. How many times do you think he went through that? But I believe the neighbor surveillance video caught him jumping the fence and then disappearing and not coming back out for hours. He was in that home. He got the lay of the home. He probably had already looked up the floor, the floor plan. He probably had already looked at the home on realtor.com or Zillow or something. I imagine he knew the layout before he went in, but he stayed in there hours, luxuriating. Probably smelled a perfume. I don't know what he did, but he knew where he was going the night of the murders. I think he knew they would be gone, and I think he went in to look around the home. Now, this is why I think he knew that they would be gone. That night at the Big Ten championship, Annie, Monique was there with her husband Spencer and a group of friends. The friends go, hey, where's Monique? And Spencer said words to the effect, oh, she went back to the hotel. This was at halftime in a very expensive ticket game. She never came back. She was so upset. And they go, well, what's wrong? And he said, something to do with her ex husband. It's no coincidence that he's skulking around in her home and she gets upset, something to do with her husband, and leaves the game halftime and goes to her hotel room upset, distraught. I don't know what he did. Did he send a text going, hey, you left your bedroom light on. Or hey, I just checked to see if the coffee was still on. Or hey, I love the nursery for the babies. There's no telling what he said to her or if he said anything. But something at that exact time got her really upset and she left the festivities. So he knew they were gone. Oh, bombshell. Everyone thinks that Spencer was shot multiple times and Monique was shot once. That is not true, according to this document we've unearthed. This was a document filed January 11, 2026, Franklin County Municipal Court, State v. Michael David McKee, quote, complainant being duly sworn, states the above Name defendant Michael McKee, honor. About the 30th day of December, did purposefully, with prior calculation and design, cause the death of another Monique Tepe by shooting the victim multiple times with a firearm. She was shot multiple times, too, according to this document. Which means to me, he unloaded the gun on both of them. What?

[Annie]

Oh, absolutely. I do. I want to ask you this really quick, Nancy. Based on your experience not only covering cases, but prosecuting cases, have you ever seen a case in which somebody harbors such a grudge and resentment? For a decade, long before striking.

[Nancy Grace]

In a domestic homicide, I investigated and personally prosecuted the husband murdered the wife, hit her in the head, set the house on fire. Millionaire, I might add. Beautiful home. When fire trucks arrived, he was lounging a la Romanesque and the yard across the street, it was like 3am as I recall. He was completely dressed. Khakis, belt, shoes, wallet, glasses. And he talked to them for like three or four minutes and went, oh, yeah, my wife's in there. He had hated her for years, but I'd have to say no because I do not believe that defendant had planned the murder for so long and had nursed a grudge for so long. I would say Dr. McKee is the first one I've seen that nursed his hatred for nearly a decade. And during that time he threatened to kill her. We are now learning that he raped her during the marriage and choked her during the marriage. Horrible marriage.

[Annie]

Horrible, horrible man. What advice would you give to the Franklin county prosecutor as she takes on her first felony murder case?

[Nancy Grace]

Honestly, Let the vets try the case. She has never tried a homicide case. No offense, she's a great lawyer. But this would be her first homicide prosecution. She's third chair. Just let these two guys that have tried many, many homicides, let them do what they do. Be secure and you are the boss of them. If you see something going sideways, which I doubt, you're in charge. But I would not trust this to a first time homicide prosecutor. You asked me and I'm telling you I didn't lead a prosecution on my first case. H E double L, N O. The first case I ever tried was a shoplifting, a felony shoplifting. And guess what? The guy didn't even steal anything. I had to beg and plead to the jury, get him for attempt at shoplifting. He did, after all, cut a CD player off the display and stick it down his pants in his crotch. Do you do that when you go shopping? No, he was trying to shoplift. It was a desperate plea, but I did get a conviction on attempted shoplifting. Look, I offered the guy probation, but he had such a long rap sheet, any conviction would have triggered jail time. So, like, hey, I'll roll the dice. You're new, you'll probably lose. No, I did not try A double homicide as my first case. No. You work up to that. She's a great lady. She's smart, she's talented. Please let these two people that are veteran seasoned homicide prosecution, let them do their thing, please. And the rest will fall into place. She's smart.

[Annie]

I.

[Nancy Grace]

She didn't win for nothing. Okay, so let them go.

[Annie]

Well, I want to switch gears for a quick second and go back in time a little bit to the Casey Anthony.

[Nancy Grace]

Oh dear.

[Annie]

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[Annie]

Like January, at least for me, it's always that moment where I look at my credit card and I go, oh, oh, okay, time to rein it in a little bit. We didn't realize we went so crazy on the gifts and the food and all that last month. And so I mean between whether you were traveling, food, gifts, like I said, it just adds up so quickly. And that's why switching to Mint Mobile will make so much sense for you. I made the switch a long time ago, so sorry, but I'm not gonna like Gatekeep. And I'm also. But I also did get the jump on you. No offense, but I used to be with one of those like big wireless plan. The bill just kept creeping up every month. I thought it was a flat rate, but then it was not because I went over my data, the texts, all that stuff. And with Mint Mobile you're cutting out all of the unnecessary extras. Yet you're still getting high speed data, unlimited talk and text, and it's all on the nation's largest 5G network. And you get it for way, way less. I use Mint Mobile and you definitely should too. And let me just tell you too, the switch is so easy. I brought my phone number over. I kept my same phone. It took me about 15 minutes to do it. It was so easy and just such a no brainer. And right now, Mid Mobile's end of year sale is still going, but only through the end of the month. But if you act fast, you can get 50% off unlimited premium wireless for 3, 6 or 12 months. You like I said, you keep your same phone, same number, all your contacts. It's a super easy switch. And all plans start at just $15 a month. Month. So this January, quit overspending on wireless and go to mintmobile.com ae that's mintmobile.com ae to get started. Limited time offer upfront payment of 45 for three months, $90 for six months or $180 for 12 months. Plan required 15amonth equivalent taxes and fees Extra initial plan term only over 50 gigabytes may slow when network is busy Capable of device required availability speed and coverage varies. CementMobile.com. It's obviously a very notorious case. The majority of people feel that justice was not served in that case. I personally still remember exactly where I was when that verdict was read and just the visceral reaction I had of just disappointment and anger and frustration. And you, your coverage during that case was huge. Arguably iconic. I'm just going to use that word because it truly was. And so I do have quite a few questions for you about that case. Starting with out of all of the interviews that you conducted while covering that case, what one still stands out to you the most?

[Nancy Grace]

I guess one of the interviews that stands out the most would be the interview with the judge who sat back and watched it all unfold. Judge Belvin knows that topmom Casey Anthony is responsible for Kelly's death and I can only imagine what it felt like to watch that whole train wreck happen in front of you. Another thing that struck me was when I first met Cindy and George Anthony in person and they had been portrayed so badly, so horribly in the press where the media would come and get on their yard. And they had lost their little baby, their precious pearl, Kelly. She was like their daughter to them. Because top mom Casey Anthony did not take care of Kelly. They took care of her. They bought her food, her pull ups, paid for her clothes. She lived with them. So did freeloader Casey Anthony. She was their world. And she's found in a trash bag 10 houses away from their home in a swampy, trashy area. That's what they were dealing with. And then their own daughter being suspected and tried for it. They were at the worst moment of their life. People dissected everything about them, everything they had ever done wrong or perceived to be wrong. And when I met them, they were delightful, smart, kind, caring people. And to think that George Anthony got dragged through the mud the way tot mom dragged her own father through the mud. That her mother got up on the stand and committed perjury to try and save Todd mom's life. I feel so badly for them. Another, another interview that really sticks out in my mind is when I spoke with the bodyguard, so to speak. Remember, taught mom went to jail first on minor offenses. I don't know, was it check cashing or something?

[Annie]

Check cashing? Forging the checks. And then. Yeah, she started lying about her job at Disney World. Yep.

[Nancy Grace]

Yeah. So she was in jail on a minor offense before she was arrested for murder. And she made bond and got out. The bonding company had to stay with her so she would not abscond because everybody knew she's going to get charged with murder. And of course, many people in that position would try to leave the country. He told me she's been in jail. Right. And Kelly hasn't been found. Her body hasn't been found. She's still missing. She comes home from the jail. They walk into the Anthony home. The first thing she says, it's not, what do you know about Kelly? Where is my daughter? What's being done? The first thing she says, she walks in, she goes, what's her supper? I mean, really, I'm not a shrink, but boy, would I like to analyze that if I had the know how. And another thing that he, the bail bondsman, observed so many people to this day go, oh, George Anthony did it. He did not do it, number one. But the bodyguard observed George Anthony jump on top, mom, and push her against the wall and goes, where's Kelly? Where is Kelly? What'd you do with her? If he knew where she was, I don't think he would have had that outburst. George is a lot of things, a lot of good things, but he ain't an Oscar nominated actor, okay? He did that. Frustration and anger and pain and loss. He wanted to find out where she was. And if you look at the jailhouse videos of their conversations, you know, with the glass between them, every time they would approach George and Cindy, both would ask, well, you know, what about Kelly? She would go ballistic and unload a string of curse words at her parents. So I just don't see George pushing her about Kelly's whereabouts. And her reaction to that, that, to me, indicates George and Cindy truly did not know where Kelly was. And everything they said at trial was bs. Everything Baez said, everything Topmom allowed him to say is all bs.

[Annie]

Thank you for sharing that. I feel like that's something that I haven't personally heard before, especially what Casey had said when she walked back into the house after being released. But. But a couple of years ago, I know you're aware of this, she came out with her new documentary or docu series on Peacock of you know, where the truth lies, I think is what it was called, where she really doubles down firm on the stance that her father George is responsible for this. And she even makes further allegations.

[Nancy Grace]

Which liar.

[Annie]

Yeah, trying to throw a Hail Mary. But what I found was interesting is in that docu series, she also admits that Xanny the nanny never existed, which I think we all collectively knew. But when you heard that, did you feel vindicated in a way, or feel like, I'm so happy she finally acknowledged that even though she still is painting George as the villain and the cause. I think we all expected that and knew that. But what was your take when you heard that woman?

[Nancy Grace]

You think I get validation or vindication from tot mom Casey Anthony? I never watched her documentary.

[Annie]

Oh, good.

[Nancy Grace]

It would infer, I mean, what she said. And a bot is not worth the salt that goes in her bread to still be blaming George at this juncture. I mean, go away. Go away. I don't want to hear about your sub stack. I don't want to hear you lecturing the vice president about whatever advocate. I don't want to hear you or see you in your hot pants at a bar luring in another guy. What? I don't care. No, I do not get validation or vindication because top mom Casey Anthony admitted she lied. I already knew she lied.

[Annie]

Well, let me ask you this then, Nancy. If you were in a room with Casey today, what would you say to her? Would you ever even consider a sit down with her?

[Nancy Grace]

I was asked to be part of a documentary with top mom Casey Anthony. And when I learned I couldn't ask my own questions and I could not be assured that my appearance would not be altered or edited or my words changed, I didn't want to do it. I did not do it. I also do not want to give a platform to top mom Casey Anthony, who I and many believe murdered her little girl. Now, did she intend to commit murder in the traditional sense, such as, I take a gun, I hold it up to you and go, you're going to die now. And I pull the trigger? Maybe not. It could have been along the lines of making homemade chloroform, which she looked up on the computer and had Cindy take the fall for. Could have been ODing her on Benadryl. It could have been giving her Benadryl and putting. Putting tape over her mouth and putting her in the car trunk and letting her sleep and she dies from asphyxiation. I don't know how Kelly died, but I do believe it was a result of what top mom did. Now, how was that murder?

[Annie]

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[Nancy Grace]

That is murder on several different levels. It could be felony murder, which is a death that occurs during the commission of a felony. You may not mean the death to happen. Like, you and I go rob a bank and you say, nancy, don't shoot anybody. And I go in, I see a teller and go, bam, she's dead. And you're like, what did I just tell you? Don't kill anybody. Well, you're on the hook for felony murder. You're committing a felony, robbing a bank, and a death occurs whether you had anything to do with it or not. I mean, one of the tellers could drop over, kill over with a heart attack. And that could still be felony murder. Yes, it could have been felony murder, child abuse or neglect by putting her in a trunk or ODing her on Benadryl and she died. It could have been abandoned and malignant heart. What is that? Another form of murder. For instance, you get in your car, let's just pretend it's a Porsche, and you drive 90 miles an hour through a festival, a street festival, and you mow down four or five people. Do you know them? No. Did you mean to kill them? No. But you had such an abandoned, malignant heart, no sympathy or empathy for the human life. That's murder. So there are several legal theories under which topmom could be prosecuted for murder as opposed to intentional murder. I'm going to strangle Kelly dead and doing it. I think that was a major flaw. I don't think the jury understood all the levels and all the theories under which she was guilty. But I don't want to be part of a platform letting her trash other people and giving her one sided tale of what happened without a thorough and sifting cross examination.

[Annie]

I think that's extremely commendable and fantastic. I mean, enough with Casey. We can leave her in the garbage where she belongs. I do have another question for you before we get into the wrap up segment. What are your thoughts on Ellen Greenberg's case now being re examined? Do you think that her family will ever receive the justice that they're looking for?

[Nancy Grace]

I pray to my holy Father in heaven that they do. Since I first found out about Ellen's murder, deemed a suicide on the spot, just like that, I knew it was wrong and launched my own investigation, which has taken years. I even wrote a book called what Happened to Ellen to explore what happened. I think and have been saying for years, the only way to get the truth is for the Feds to take over. Why at the time, the local district attorney, for whatever reason, which is a whole line of inquiry, decided not to fully investigate the case. Now the governor is Josh Shapiro. He was connected to the DA's office at the time. Then he became the AG. He was his uncle, attorney general, top cop. And when the parents begged and screamed and pleaded and demanded that the case be reopened, he's like, whoa, that's my old office. Of course we didn't do anything wrong. I know those people. They would never. And when you're friends and colleagues with people, you have on blinders. So again, it wasn't investigated. Now he's the governor, of course he's not going to claim the AG and the DA are responsible and did a bad job. He is part and parcel of it because of his connection. The only way for a full investigation to take place is for the Feds to intervene. And I pray to God that they are true to their word and they do it. I've been screaming that. You're preaching to the choir. I've been asking for the Feds to get involved for years. Do I think she was murdered? Yes. You cannot stab yourself over 20 times in the back, including severing your dura, which is the protective sheath around your spine, all on your own. That did not happen.

[Annie]

I agree. And there were so many things after the fact Circumstantial, yes, but the fiance's uncle taking her computer the following day, so many different things, him calling the cousin before 911 that you just. I don't think anybody that I have actually spoken with believes that this was a suicide. So I've spoken with Ellen's mom quite a few times too, and I'm hopeful that they do finally get answers as to what happened to Ellen. So you are known for your hot takes, your no nonsense, and you're just straight, you know, no opinion. So I want to just get your hot take, your one sentence hot take on the following people and then we're going to wrap this up. Very morphe.

[Nancy Grace]

There was one person in the state, the one civilian that had access to Bam B brother, a Alpha m mother, which is a very, very powerful animal tranquilizer. It brings down rhinos and elephants. That was found in Suzanne Morphew's system. That one civilian we are told that had access to that is Barry Morphew. Chew on that, Morphew. Next.

[Annie]

Jodi Arias.

[Nancy Grace]

Jody Arias, the ultimate grifter and con who actually shot a bird at me in the courtroom. Haven't forgotten that. But that said, she changed her story multiple times. First, I wasn't there. Then her digital camera that caught shots of Travis Alexander during his death and her foot on the scene was found in the washer tangled up in the sheets. When she was confronted with that, she goes, oh, okay, I was there. But two guys dressed as ninjas came in, they killed him, and I got away. Really? What farce of a crime story movie have you been watching? Finally, she changed her story to self defense and tried to paint Travis as a perv of rot in hell Arias. Next.

[Annie]

All right, my final one. Scott Peterson.

[Nancy Grace]

Ooh, talk about the devil. This is my. One of my favorite stories about Scott Peterson. This says it all. So two bodies washed ashore. San Francisco Bay detectives go to Peterson and they say, Scott Peterson, we, we have horrible news. We've gotten a DNA match. Those two bodies are Lacey and Connor. Within 15 minutes, the detectives tell me this did not come out at trial. Scott Peterson's in the backseat. He goes, hey, can we drive through in n out. I want a double double with cheese and a shake. Really? He just found out. Lacey and Connor are absolutely dead. Their bodies on the San Francisco Bay beach washed up. Somehow Connor escaped Lacey's uterus. They're both dead. The hope is gone. You will never hold your son in your arms. I have a son and a daughter. That would be the worst thing that could ever happen to me is to be taken away from them. And he wants an effing double double with cheese. Anything else?

[Annie]

Yeah, no. Thank you so much for joining today. Nancy, can you let everybody know where they can watch you, where they can listen to you just so they can get more information to all.

[Nancy Grace]

Thank you. We are at crime stories on YouTube. We also air first at Fox One, the streaming giant. We are on Sirius XM every single day and of course on iHeart, our radio home. So please join us. We live chat throughout the program on YouTube every single night. So please join us.

[Annie]

Amazing. Thank you so much Nancy.

[Nancy Grace]

Thank you for inviting me. Please invite me again, my dear.

[Annie]

All right, so I hope you guys enjoyed that episode. I certainly enjoyed talking with Nancy. I feel like I could have chatted with her for hours. I just look, I have papers and papers and papers here on my desk. I had so many questions that I wanted to ask her and unfortunately we didn't get a chance to get to all of them. So we are definitely going to need to have her on for round two. So let me know in the comments if you enjoyed this episode what you want me to ask Nancy next time she's on and your thoughts on these cases. All right guys, until the next one, be nice, don't kill people, don't join any cults and just be a good human. All right, bye.

[Nancy Grace]

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