← Served with Andy Roddick
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- [00:00]
Host 1
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- [00:30]
Sponsor Voice 1
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- [01:01]
Host 1
Hey everyone. Welcome to serve 2025 recap. Okay, so most recap shows you basically just run through and everyone tells you about the results that you already know.
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Host 2
Is that generally pretty true?
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Host 1
Correct.
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Host 2
Yeah.
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Host 1
Feel like we've done that. Feel like we've been here every week. Yeah, most of you have been with us every week. So let's do it a little bit of a different way. You had an idea, Mike. So what are we doing?
- [01:25]
Host 2
Well, so John started doing this thing kind of mid year, which we did at some and not a lot, but it was winners and unforced errors, which I loved and I think it's a great segment. I think we should definitely do a lot of it in 2026. But I was like, what if that's our recap episode? What if we just look at 2025 as a whole and we have some winners and unforced errors that are.
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Host 1
We're just picking. We're just picking favorites and they're just.
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Host 2
Like, you know, 10,000.
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Host 1
Just throw them shrapnel at everyone else.
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Host 2
Yeah, well, just unforced error. We're not saying they're like the losers or the worst.
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Host 1
We can still be friends.
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Host 2
Yeah.
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Host 1
But just didn't like it.
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Host 2
I don't know about you, but yeah.
- [01:58]
Host 1
Okay, well great.
- [02:01]
Host 2
For instance, like my winner. My winner. Yeah. Which I think we can all agree on was the US Open mixed doubles. Yeah, I thought it was. It was from a tennis outsider standpoint, I thought it was a great path in. I thought it got big names on the court in a two day period. And honestly it was on tv and a lot of People watched it, you know, and it got 2 million impressions or something across their digital. 115% increase across US opens digital platforms. It too sold out nights. I mean, it was great.
- [02:32]
Host 1
Here's where I'm at, and I think I'm pretty firmly on record with being supportive of the format. Not even because I was convinced that the format. I think the format's still imperfect. I think the easiest adjustment would be like, okay, the four winners from the majors in mixed doubles should be in the tournament. Like, you should have automatic entry there. There are adjustments. There are adjustments off of it. The way that I see it, and I've been called an idiot very recently for this, but the way that I see it is everything I've heard for two decades, three, five decades, is we need more eyeballs on doubles, like the product of doubles. Right. We need to find a way to generate the interest, we need to market it, and we need more eyes on this game of doubles. And then we found a way to do that. And it somehow is like, it's not really about the doubles. It's about.
- [03:36]
Host 2
My doubles.
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Host 1
My doubles.
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Host 2
Yeah.
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Host 1
Because if you go through and you would have heard the laundry list of like, we need to promote it. Check. We need to find a new way to get to the market in an exciting way. Check. We need to educate people on doubles. Check. We need to find a way for it to be on tv. Check. So, like, it goes through the laundry list, all of the laundry, all the checkpoints of what I've heard forever. And then it was still by the people who love doubles the most went.
- [04:07]
Host 3
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
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Host 1
But not that way.
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Host 2
Yeah, like 400% increase in prize money, but not for me.
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Host 1
So I get. Something had to change. It was never gonna be. It was never gonna get 100% buy in from people. It just was impossible. I respect Boudarak and Stacey Alistair for taking the shot. I thought it was an overwhelming success. Not for each individual person who may have a vested interest in the thing as it formerly existed for the gang and for the sport of doubles. I thought it was wildly beneficial. Jw, what'd I get wrong?
- [04:43]
Host 3
So what you're saying is that if you took a macro view and did things in service of tennis and not your vested interest, you actually can get better results. No, I mean, the chef's kiss is that the sort of doubles, in a way, was validated because the team that ended up winning, Irani and Vavasori, were the proper outsiders who sort of defended the honor of their. Yeah, exactly. So no I think the larger point is if tennis can learn from this and experiment and realize that you can disrupt. And just because something's been done the same way for 50 years, that doesn't mean it's inviolable. I think there's a real lesson here. But, no, this was a success. Everybody went home happy. It was you talking. We want more attention on doubles. We want more TV time on doubles. We want more chatter about doubles. You got all that. The team that was the proper team and not the shotgun marriage ended up winning. Everybody goes home happy. It did not detract from the tournament. In the middle of the Open, nobody said, hey, where are my mixed double sessions? Nobody said, this is a completely diluted title because it's not happening in conjunction with the rest of the tournament.
- [05:47]
Host 1
Some people did say that. I just. It just runs in the face of the macro in my mind. Like, they're. You're always going to have traditionalists. It's always just going to happen. I had this same conversation with many of them, and I would go, like, point by point with, you know, the things that I'm telling you now, and they go, I know, but I just don't like it. I'm like, that's fair. You don't have to like it. But way more people did like it, as evidenced by data. Right. Like, I'm not saying you.
- [06:12]
Host 2
78,000 people in the stands is probably the most people that's watched doubles matches.
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Host 1
In a long time, and half the matches or over half the matches were free. And Louis Armstrong.
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Host 2
Mm. That's pretty cool.
- [06:23]
Host 1
So, you know, we'll see where it goes. We'll see. What does that mean? It's perfect.
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Host 2
No, I like the idea of. Of the reigning champs getting automatic bids.
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Host 1
Yeah, I want that. And the other pie in the sky idea is I want it. If we're going to, like, we call it the US Open because it's open, I do want, like, a regional qualifying into a. Qualifying into a spot in that. In that tournament. Like. Like, you and I could enter. Well, I wouldn't enter with you, but we could.
- [06:51]
Host 2
No, you and Kim would be a better option.
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Host 1
Well, when she's healthy, she's healthy.
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Host 2
Yeah.
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Host 1
That's a rough one, but. Yeah, that's kind of what I'm saying.
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Host 2
Maybe Serena could you.
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Host 1
Could you be a regional qualifier if you didn't enter doping protocols?
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Host 3
We don't have to worry about that. It's a good point.
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Host 1
I don't know anyways, but I thought it was a win. It covered 90% of the grievances.
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Host 3
About.
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Host 1
Doubles as a current product. And then I think some people just, you know, if it doesn't serve them directly, then they change their opinion. Was not actually based in macro, but micro. I thought it was a win. I thought it took a shot. And also if it would have failed, you go back. It's not as if you can't go back to the product that's already out there, but it's, it's, it's like a slow bleed. If you look at, like the final shots or the semi shots from mixed doubles over the years, it's like some of them were played for less than 500 people. I don't know who that's benefiting. Yeah, you know, Well, I do, but it ain't tennis as a whole. Anyways.
- [08:00]
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- [09:03]
Host 1
Jw, what do you got.
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Host 3
For winners or for unforced errors?
- [09:08]
Host 1
You choose.
- [09:10]
Host 3
Actually, you know what? I'm going to give you my unforced error because it actually fits into this, which is sometimes you make a change and what you realize this should have been done a long time ago. It's a smashing success. The good of the sport overall trumps any sort of embedded interest. My negative. Got a couple. But I'm gonna, I'm gonna pass on. You know, the. The president coming to the US Open was not a proud moment and the lines for finals, but let's move past that. There were a couple of sort of, I, I'm gonna say these extended 1000 events.
- [09:43]
Host 2
Andy literally just wrote that down and circled it he said, as you started.
- [09:46]
Host 1
I had it written down and I started circling it feverishly.
- [09:49]
Host 2
Like we talked to each other.
- [09:50]
Host 3
I feel like that means you. And it's much, it's less about you and I being Al is just an obvious one. And I think going back to what you said, had this mixed doubles been an abject failure, hopefully tenants would have had the good sense to say, you know what? We tried something, it didn't work. Let's revert. That's what I think a lot of people are hoping for here. Yes, there are contracts, there are rights deals, but this ain't happening. And tennis needs to figure out how to undo this because there's no A part. I, I, my, my joke is like, apart from the half dozen events that benefit from this and Netflix, because everybody's bored watching more Eddie Murphy documentaries than they used to because we're sitting around in Cincinnati waiting for two weeks, the Eddie Murphy documentary.
- [10:33]
Host 1
Side note.
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Host 3
Yeah, I know. Hercules. Hercules. Eddie Murphy, man. We could do a whole podcast on this. Sherman, what were we talking about?
- [10:41]
Host 2
Oh, yes.
- [10:42]
Host 3
Extended master series events. We got to figure out a way to roll this back because this, this ain't working. And it's not good for the fans, it's not good for the players, it's not good for other events that are being squeezed out. It's just, you know, sometimes you innovate and take risks and they pan out and sometimes you whiff and this ain't happening.
- [11:03]
Host 1
You know when you know that someone knows that it's fucked, is when someone looked like, yeah, but I know, I know, I know, I know. But I still believe it was well intentioned. Listen, I don't know if I believe that, if the players don't like it, if we're covering it. And it's like this weird thing where we're putting out a show and it's like a match has been played in it. The number one issue, like, let's just be very simple, right? The number one issue that is the most agreed upon thing in tennis. I don't know that you'll find someone who's out there and says, you know what? You know what? Tennis could use a longer schedule. Literally every person, no matter what your vested interests are, whether you're a dumb show like us, whether you're a player, whether you're a coach, whether you're anything, not a single person's going, you know what? The season's too long. Everyone knows that the season is too long. Inserting 12 days. Even if you can fix in the Calendar to not. It creates way less flexibility for players if you're nursing an injury. If you have to make an adjustment, you're not just missing one week. It's just, it's just insane. A day of rest or two days of rest at a tournament is not the same as a week or two of rest at home while you're training. You have to train to be healthy. You do not train as hard when you're in a tournament because you can't physically do it. I don't know because I can't get a straight answer from anyone how long these deals are for what they've promised Whoever for these 12 day tournaments. The difference with the mixed doubles that you mentioned and just putting the toothpaste back in JW is that there's no chance that they were gonna say, you know what? We don't know. We think this idea will work. We are not sure of it, but we're gonna commit the next five years to it. They said let's do it next year. Let's see how it goes. That is not what happened with the ATB schedule as far as my understanding. And I know we're gonna get an email from someone. Be easier for you just to come on and us talk about it. That'd be great anytime. Would love to know what we're doing wrong but would love for you to put a name to it also.
- [13:32]
Host 3
Yeah, I mean the justification is going to be, look, the players x more players are able to enter draws. The draw size got bigger. More players, more earning opportunity. The tournament's benefits wait around 13 days.
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Host 1
Until the next one. Way to go.
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Host 3
It just. The sessions get really thin. I mean there's some of these sessions and you're like, could you imagine taking a day off for work for that? And then somebody rolls an ankle and I mean it just is not working. And the players compl. I mean this isn't you and I. I mean this isn't just hot takes. I mean this is based on conversations and players don't like it and coaches don't like it and fans, I mean this is just again, we, we applaud the attempt but sometimes you, you gotta, you gotta roll it back and admit defeat. This is not working.
- [14:16]
Host 2
I was thinking about this the other day. I mean when you think about other sports, the only thing I can think of in other major sports here in the US that compares to a tennis tournament or would be like March Madness, right? And that goes three weeks or 64 teams or whatever. 68 if you count the play ins.
- [14:30]
Host 1
I mean, but, but, no but hear me out.
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Host 2
That's once for the entire year. They're doing these near March Madness level tournaments like 12 times a year. It's, but I'm just saying it's, it's insane. And then, and it's the same people doing it over and over and over again. I just think how is that physically better for them?
- [14:48]
Host 1
Do you know why the super bowl is allowed to take two weeks before Super Bowl?
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Host 2
No way.
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Host 1
Because it's the Super Bowl.
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Host 2
Yeah, exactly.
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Host 1
Because it's the biggest event of the year.
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Host 2
That's what I'm saying.
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Host 1
March Madness is the biggest event of the year.
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Host 2
They do it once.
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Host 1
No one's saying that the Slams are too long. No, no one's saying that.
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Host 2
No.
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Host 1
But like someone's got to be Tito, right? Yeah, someone's got to be Tito.
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Host 2
I agree.
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Host 1
Someone's Michael. Someone's Tito.
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Host 2
Yeah.
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Host 1
Right. Like, so there's not nine Slams.
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Host 2
Right?
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Host 1
Like your biggest events and getting it to a TV audience and like, I'm sorry, is the goal to get it to it. We played a, we played a Cincinnati final and thankfully it's going to be moved back next year. But like we played, we played a, an Alcaraz center final at 3, 3pm on a Monday.
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Host 2
Horrible.
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Host 1
Like, and I understand that there were other, you know, we, we love, I love Bob Moran. I think he does a great job. I, I, he's an honest broker. You don't have to like get through the pleasantries. He wasn't happy with us when we said it and also I think he agreed with us. Like they moved it back and like Canada and Cincy becoming, adding another week for those events together. And their biggest defense of like, hey listen, we're going to combine these into three weeks. I'm like, but you, we all want a schedule to be shorter and the defense is at least it's not four weeks like the rest of them. There's just no good defense pass like it's good for us and it's not dissimilar to the double situation. And as long as we have these opinions that it should be shorter but just not if it can benefit us directly. We want doubles to be shown to people, but not if it can benefit us directly. Like we need to actually have an opinion that we believe in. That's not self serving. That's the, that's the, the whole thing with, with, with the entire thing. I fully agree with you had my 12 day masters event written circled 17 times. JW, I think that's I think that's spot on.
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Host 2
Yeah. Should we go with a winner? You got a winner for us.
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Host 1
I had mixed. I, I had like the French Open final. Like if we're going to do any sort of recap show where it's like he, when I was playing tennis was viewed as this like still like a, like a very country club ish sport. Right. Where like if you're not getting hit, you know, tennis was a country club sport and yet Rivers can come back and play on five days notice.
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Host 2
Right.
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Host 1
Like, so there were all these things that I just didn't understand and I don't know that I've ever seen more respect for the athleticism that tennis requires, I think for the mental anguish that tennis requires as after that match with Alcaraz and Sinner at the French Open. So I think there are certain moments in time in our sport where it's like finally the stage met, the physical display met the mental display. And all of a sudden I'm getting 200 text messages from friends who maybe tennis isn't their favorite sport going, you know what? I've never seen athleticism like that in my life. I can't believe what I just watched. Winner, winner. Can't say sin or dinner. Alcaraz won, but something dinner. I think that was maybe the winner of the year outside of like the politics and you know, you can say revenues generated and tennis is hot. Tennis is mainstream.
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Host 2
Yeah.
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Host 1
Documentaries everywhere, like tennis is in a great moment and I think it's worth realizing in real time. But also when you have this momentum and then something happens like an Alcaraz center final that we're going to remember 40 years from now. And that's not hyperbolic to say the athleticism on display, the way they were moving, the endurance. Every part of athleticism needed to become a tennis player was on full display. Jw, am I, am I still too close to this? Am I, am I, am I exaggerating?
- [18:56]
Host 3
I was gonna say we, we all had this breathless podcast an hour after that match. I feel the same six month detachment. I'm not sure views have changed. I would say a. What that match lacked was significant. There was no controversy, there was no ugliness, there was no injury. Again, the last 15 minutes, qualitatively both sides of the net, but Alcaraz in particular, the last 15 minutes, if you didn't know better, you thought you'd walked in the, the first few games of the match. I mean nothing dropped off. I also think it, you know, we devastating loss that day to center and yet he took it with a great amount of grace. He was able to realize this was a really special match. His opponent played well and then this was not a mortal blow. Very same opponent, you know, x, whatever. Five weeks later, very same opponent, final of a major and the other guy wins. Great for rivalry, great for tennis. Again, just the combination of sort of the emotional drama with what we were watching physically. That was a nice encapsulation of everything good about tennis.
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Host 1
And we, we built up, we, we're coming out of a suspension for sinner going into Rome and then Roland Garros. If he's petulant, if he's anything less than all class after that match, he's going to invite in a tidal wave of, of criticism, of little catty comments. I don't care where you stand on it. There's, there's just not a world where you look at him after that and be like, listen, props man. Like unbelievable the way that you. I think he won back a lot of fans, not that he lost him, just people that maybe not might not have known the situation and dealt in headlines and there was polarizing controversy. One, I think he's phenomenal. I think he's handled it phenomenally well. I think that match and almost him being the sympathetic figure long term will be really good for him and I think has been good for him with the way that he was able to show his human side even in disappointment there. That was a big winner for me.
- [20:58]
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- [21:28]
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- [21:56]
Host 3
Let's drive.
- [21:58]
Host 2
Sticking with the French Open. I think we've talked about this a few times. I think TNT Sports in Their coverage of the French Open. I mean globally, that match, did you know, record breaking numbers in Italy.
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Host 1
Did you? What a gift for year one.
- [22:11]
Host 2
I mean, what a gift for year one. But I think TNT sports took some swings on some things and really is pushing back to your country club kind of thought process on tennis. Even coverage in tennis hasn't really innovated in a long time. And so I think that they were taking some swings in innovation and I actually really enjoyed their whip around style that they were doing early on. And I think that they, they just weren't afraid to try some things. So I'm excited to see what they do next year.
- [22:38]
Host 1
Yeah, and I was watching, I was trading text like everyone else. Just being a fan. It's just that I can text a lot of the commentators directly and I think there was some stuff I was like getting, you know, asked for some feedback. What is it? How'd that present? I was like, some worked, some didn't. And in a year or two, it's gonna be fantastic because we're gonna know what works and what didn't. So you come in, you take a shot. I thought it was fantastic. I mean, obviously Coco winning to an American market and then sinner and Alcaraz. It's like dream of all dreams. I think it's fantastic that we certainly are aware of the people that do cover tennis. I think getting Andre into the booth was a big deal. And I'm obviously a massive homer, but he's one of the guys where you look at and go, how has someone not gotten him on tv Somehow, some way, I thought he was fantastic. Again, going out and not just running the same playbook, I thought was fantastic. And it'd be fun to see how the media of tennis reacts to it. I thought it was great.
- [23:46]
Host 3
Also. It was fun. I mean, full disclosure, I was part of that TNT team member. For me, it was fun. It was Lindsey, it was Jim. You sort of had the tennis channel crowd, you had McEnroe and Mary Jones. Um, it was just this real mix. And then late in the tournament, you bring in Andre and you know, the tnt, they had come from a lot of these people. They'd worked Stanley cup, they'd worked NBA. These were not hardcore 52 weeks a year. You know, Vachero played with Render Nesh at Texas A and M. That's not necessarily the vibe. It was sort of, hey, we're at this really cool tennis event, we're in the middle of France and tell the person in Dubuque what they need to know it was. It was a different approach. It was kind of this, you know, mixing of ESPN and Tennis Channel. I think you're right about Andre. And it was also just. It was good fun, I can tell you. There was very. There was no drama. It was just good, good fun. And everybody realized, yeah, I don't know what happens next year when it's, you know, Konstantin Chernenko. I mean, they got the dream. Final weekend.
- [24:46]
Host 1
Google. Who knows what happens when. Give me one second.
- [24:48]
Host 2
Constantine. Who?
- [24:50]
Host 1
Renko.
- [24:51]
Host 3
I didn't want to rip anyone. I just had to make up a name.
- [24:55]
Host 1
That's a sick name, by the way. I was like. I was like, oh, I. Like, I didn't know. I didn't know that.
- [25:01]
Host 2
No, I didn't.
- [25:02]
Host 3
I didn't want to, you know, but.
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Host 1
Ranked 205. He was a guy ranked right behind Vasho.
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Host 3
Exactly.
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Host 1
It was Vasho.
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Host 3
Right? It was the guy that beat Vasho in. Anyway, I'll give you mine, which was, you know, I. I still think it's kind of the tennis secret hiding in plain sight Arena. Sabalenka, you lose in the final of Australia in this heartbreaker. You lose a heartbreaker at Indian Wells, you lose in a real heartbreak at Roland Garros, and then you sort of have a bit of a disappointing day, reflecting on the match. You go to Wimbledon, you make another deep run, you don't win that, and suddenly you're the number one player in the world. You've won three majors to date, and suddenly you're kind of playing for your season. Irina Sabalenka's. Her power is unanswerable. She's the number one player in the world and has been for what's suddenly become a good long time. Her ability to reset. We talk about Sinner's ability to compartmentalize after the 90 days off. What about Sabalenka's ability to compartmentalize after some really rough losses? I think she will look back at her career one day and say, geez, I could have had a few more majors than I did. But I also think she will be really happy with the way she bounced back. And, you know, she. She lost the tight match to close out the year, which in a weird way was sort of a fitting end. But she won the major. She won the US Open. She stayed number one. And I think we sometimes give short shrift to the number one women's player in the world because she really is a gift.
- [26:28]
Host 1
Yeah. I mean, it could very easily be argued that she had more pressure than anyone Going into the US Open this year, men's and women's to her, you know, clear, like far and away, points wise, number one in the world. And then yet if you don't win a major, how do you stake that claim, you know? And then she wins it and it's like, yeah, she's the best player in the world this year. Like, no question. I think IGA turning her season around at Wimbledon, like, that was a crazy story. Like, it's, it's iga, so we expect great things and we've been preconditioned to her being one of the best. And you know, right there at the arena and Ash Barty, like, of her, of her generation, but like not coming through on clay, looking bad at times on your favorite surface, and then somehow finding a way to be dominant on your worst surface. Like, that's the stuff that legends are made of, you know, that's, that's, that's crazy. We'll see where it goes from here. But that was a fun. Even though the matches weren't dramatic, I'm going, oh my God. It just clicked. You could see it click. I'm like, she knows how to play on the surface now, you know, and it just all worked. I thought that was a very underrated part of the year. I thought it was. I thought she was fantastic.
- [27:35]
Host 2
Sometimes witnessing dominance like that is just so, I mean, you're in awe of it.
- [27:39]
Host 1
I was.
- [27:40]
Host 2
When somebody's in the zone.
- [27:41]
Host 1
I hadn't been to Wimble in forever and I sat there and watched that day she played Danielle Collins. And I'm going, maybe I just haven't seen enough grass, not on TV in a while. But like, I left that and I go, can she win this? I think she can win this tournament.
- [27:58]
Host 2
Yeah.
- [27:59]
Host 1
Like, I hadn't picked her because, like, what in her history would have suggested that that would have been the thing to do? That was, I thought that was phenomenal as well. I thought that was like, talk about two champions kind of turning their years around under the brightest of lights, like IGA and Arena. It's like, okay, one, two, you know, ho hum, legends.
- [28:19]
Host 2
Yeah. We'll talk about The WTA top 20 rankings in a later show to kind of end the year, which I think will be exciting to hear. What do you guys see? And maybe we see more showdowns from them.
- [28:29]
Host 1
One thing that I think is going to be, it's been like a story and I think it, I don't see how it becomes a smaller story going into next year. And it seems like it's all being done kind of weirdly. And I want jw. You normally have a better kind of finger on the pulse than I do for these things. But the players wanting more prize money from the Grand Slams they wrote a letter. We don't know who's on the letter. We hear rumors of a letter. There's a second letter. I can't get anyone to talk about it.
- [29:00]
Host 2
Lots of letters.
- [29:01]
Host 1
A lot of letters. There's a lot of, you know, maybes there's a lot of we want this. Everyone. You know, it's definitely unfair but we're not going to advocate public. Where are we with all this with and just level set for context. And I'll get the numbers wrong but they'll only be slightly wrong. NBA the players get 47% of revenues in some way shape or form players at the Grand Slams. It's higher than that.
- [29:25]
Host 3
Basically a 5050 split.
- [29:26]
Host 1
Okay.
- [29:26]
Host 2
Yeah.
- [29:27]
Host 1
So somewhere around there and then the players at Grand Slams get. I don't know. It used to be 13, 15 ish percent of total prize money from Grand.
- [29:35]
Host 2
Slams maybe a little less.
- [29:37]
Host 1
So based on comps it's in. No one's saying that tennis players are underpaid compared to anyone else. The percentage of prize money and revenue that they get from the biggest entities compared to other sports and what they get from the biggest entities is crazily skewed to the not benefit of tennis. Where do we stand with this JW and like what can actually happen? How far can. How long can the Slams kind of kick the can down the road?
- [30:08]
Host 3
That's, that's, that's exactly right. And that's the problem that's always been the problem with. There is a huge collective active problem. And if you were going to devise a sport that is sort of least favorable to player empowerment, it would look a lot like tennis where there's a career window and these are individual actors and there's no union. You're right. We had this PTPA lawsuit that sort of made all these sweeping allegations of collusion and corruption and a cartel.
- [30:35]
Host 1
They were accusing people of course when PTA was. PTPA was accusing people of collusion and corruption.
- [30:42]
Host 3
The federal suit.
- [30:45]
Host 1
Okay, Mark. Self dealing, conflict of interest. Yeah.
- [30:49]
Host 3
Who actually is the PTPA has never been made clear. What we do know is that the basically I was told every player in the top 10 there is this parallel effort that's being done not in the legal system but through good faith negotiation. Larry Scott is sort of spearheading this. They had constructive meetings at Roland Garros and at Wimbledon and Sabalenkin and the top players, Casper rood, the top 10 members of the top 10 were in the room and everything's going great, but nothing has been done. And I think where this stands right now, Craig Tylee's status probably plays a role in this. Will he stay in Australia? Will, as rumored, he go to the usta? That could have an impact here. But I think basically this group of players needs to figure out what is their leverage and what is their appetite to really fight this because they want something in the low 20s and then graduated up apart from the scant proportion of gross revenue. Bear in mind too, that the majors don't pay into pensions. They're not benefits. That's a big deal. So, yeah, I mean, I think you ask where the stands and I think basically these top players in this group being spearheaded by Larry Scott, they need to figure out do they want to take the gloves off?
- [32:04]
Host 1
Because have they tried just saying please?
- [32:08]
Host 3
Well, that's the thing. I mean, exactly what is your leverage? Is the root of all negotiations going.
- [32:13]
Host 1
In, is the answer.
- [32:15]
Host 3
Yeah. If they're not prepared to sit out a major, I'm not sure what the leverage is and they'll have a lot.
- [32:22]
Host 1
Of productive conversations in the next couple years is where this lands.
- [32:26]
Host 2
Every sport on the face of the planet is driven by stars. Right. NBA had players sitting out and they got in trouble for it. Right. And people started, the broadcasters started punishing for it. I think the only, the only way you're going to have any effective change is if these players are willing to make it. So the TV people aren't getting the TV viewership numbers. They get in attendance.
- [32:46]
Host 1
Yeah, no, sales aren't being done.
- [32:48]
Host 2
Nobody wants that.
- [32:48]
Host 1
But like, also, if the Slims know that you're not going to do that.
- [32:54]
Host 2
Exactly.
- [32:55]
Host 1
Then they're going to be very inclined to keep having productive conversations for as long as they can have productive conversations.
- [33:03]
Host 3
Then you retire. Do you see this sterile office environment behind me? If I went next door to my boss and I said, you know what? I think I'm had a good year, I'd like a raise, they say, well, okay, if we don't give it to you, what's going to happen? Oh, I don't know. I'm just appealing to your common sense of decency and fair. I'm probably not going to be successful if I go in there and say, you know what, either I'm not going to do the next story or I have a competing offer somewhere else. My odds are probably better. I'm not sure what the leverage is for the players if they're not willing to sit out a major. Simply appealing to the better angels and a sense of fairness of the four majors is probably not a great way to get your wages increased.
- [33:46]
Host 1
We were having this conversation 20 years ago. And also the majors probably know, like, the fact that Australia is starting. No one's going to boycott the Australian Open in three weeks. You can't use the French. If you get to the French Open, you can't use Wimbledon because it's two weeks later. So basically, once you get to. Once it's done with the US Open and you haven't negotiated it by Australia, it's an automatic reset.
- [34:12]
Host 2
Yeah.
- [34:12]
Host 1
Just based on timing and the amount of time it would take to do it. So, like, once this year starts, I think that. I think that conversation's gone like a fart on a windy day. Honestly, I really do like the time where you have to do it is either after Australia, which it doesn't seem like it's gonna happen based on, like, we're not hearing any rumblings of organizing, or after the US Open when you actually have. You have to have enough time to actually negotiate the new terms. It ain't gonna happen between French Open at Wimbledon. Once the US Open goes and we get to October.
- [34:44]
Host 2
I mean, the only thing we are. The only thing we are hearing is that, you know that the Australia's Tennis association is potentially having a stay while they negotiate a settlement with the ptpa. But, like, that's, again, that's just like a letter.
- [34:56]
Host 1
What settlement?
- [34:56]
Host 2
It's just another letter. More letters. Love letters. But I think that's the question. Right. To your point.
- [35:03]
Host 1
Based on what?
- [35:04]
Host 2
I don't. I don't know.
- [35:04]
Host 1
I'd like to settle with you. Give me some money.
- [35:08]
Host 3
Luggage tags. Deal.
- [35:10]
Host 1
Air Mike, I'm going to sue you. If you don't want me to sue you, just give me money right now.
- [35:13]
Host 2
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [35:14]
Host 1
Weird. It's almost like we said that they were going to be in it for a settlement.
- [35:17]
Host 2
Hmm.
- [35:18]
Host 1
Strange. Feel like we said that and we were assured that was definitely not the case.
- [35:24]
Host 2
Can we. Can we stick with. I want to stick with something that's well within, like, the structure and control of the powers that be and something that is probably really, really complicated. And we've had conversations with. With people about it being complicated, but the restrictions on both creators, but even the players themselves to use their own footage of themselves being successful in this sport across social media channels. And YouTube to showcase the beauty of the sport and brag about this sport, but then not being allowed to because it violates whatever rights deals the ATP and WTA have. Why can't Coco Golf post a sick video of her winning the French Open and put it on our social media without it getting taken down? Right. Why can't we do an X's and O's to show off the beauty of the game and the complication of it without it getting.
- [36:09]
Host 1
Because we're not paying for it.
- [36:10]
Host 2
And ultimately every other major sport has used the ability for free publicity by creators that they don't have to pay for to not only go to sponsors and say, look, this is how much more our product is shown. You owe us more money, but then also to for free grow their game internationally.
- [36:28]
Host 1
How much harder?
- [36:29]
Host 2
Drives me crazy.
- [36:29]
Host 1
How much harder is this? Because you know more about this and you've worked in sports. I've kind of only been in this sport and you've worked in a ton of different sports in football and UFC and everything else. But, like, generally speaking, there are way less rights holders internationally. Like with espn. With NBA, you go to espn, it's like, oh, they can sign off on that. The players using their thing. Now for Coco, it's. Is it tennis TV in the atb? Well, not Coco atb, but like tennis. Is it Tennis tv? Is it tnt? Is it backlog of, like, I can't put up a US Open highlight, right? Like, backlog of cbs? Or was it under espn? Or was that back when it was USA Network? Who owns those things? Is it wme? Is it img? Is it like, is it all of these different things? Is it the same problem with every single issue in tennis that it's just so fragmented that everything's a kick in the nuts?
- [37:22]
Host 2
Yeah, I think, listen, The UFC has 100 plus rights deals across the globe, and somehow creators are allowed to put stuff up on Instagram. I think really it's about choosing to police it or not. Right. And I think ultimately, if tennis just chooses to relax on the algorithms catching things in copyright and claiming these copyright infringements, it'll probably solve a lot of it.
- [37:44]
Host 1
Do you think that. Did you see when I got called an idiot?
- [37:52]
Host 3
Oh, yeah. I don't know that story.
- [37:53]
Host 2
What was that?
- [37:55]
Host 1
There's a doubles coach who. He was basically like, you know, talking about. The only issue with doubles is. The only thing that's been an issue is, like, marketing of the players. And he basically was like, he called me an idiot. And then he proceeded to make an argument that makes no fucking sense and is like nonsensical. Basically his argument was like, give like doubles player. Like I had basically said I got an argument with this person on Twitter and then quit Twitter. But it was, it was. I was like, well, go do it then. Like go double doubles player. They needed. They should go. I'm like, well then go do it. Have them get to like we. And I said, we started a show in our garage.
- [38:34]
Host 2
Yeah.
- [38:35]
Host 1
We didn't have any permission. Like we got $7,000 in equipment and started. We don't have a marketing budget. We don't have any budget. Like it changes but like you gotta go do it. And his whole thing was the ATB won't even let us use our own highlights.
- [38:47]
Host 2
Yeah.
- [38:48]
Host 1
And so we can't go do anything. We can't go start our own podcast or marketing because the ATP. I'm like, fucking really? You think they're gonna give non revenue generators rights to their stuff and then still be able to keep them from Carlos and Jannik and Coco? On what fucking planet does that make sense?
- [39:08]
Host 3
Wouldn't a.
- [39:11]
Host 1
Victims because they're not being given their own highlights, but Coco can't get them?
- [39:15]
Host 2
That's the whole point, right?
- [39:16]
Host 1
That's the point.
- [39:16]
Host 2
That's the point.
- [39:17]
Host 1
You want to have a special carve out for people that aren't creating revenue.
- [39:21]
Host 2
Yeah.
- [39:21]
Host 1
Give me a break. Get out of here. And then open up litigation from the biggest.
- [39:27]
Host 3
Okay, whatever.
- [39:28]
Host 1
I'm an idiot.
- [39:29]
Host 2
An idiot.
- [39:31]
Host 1
Idiot. Idiot. Gosh.
- [39:35]
Host 2
Sorry, Joey. Job over you. Sorry.
- [39:37]
Host 3
No, we don't have to go. But when the sports organization, the association that's half player owned, be more inclined to give its top players highlights for the sake of promoting the sport.
- [39:48]
Host 2
I mean, if I'm ESPN or not.
- [39:50]
Host 1
When their most valuable revenue generator is that highlight package in Tennis tv, which is a monster every player gets X.
- [39:59]
Host 3
Seconds a year of. So you know, Taylor, Fritz, Morgan, Riddle.
- [40:04]
Host 1
And it's, it's their, it's their thing when they start kind of letting it in. It's, it's just like, it's. That's a massive. Like one of the underrated monsters in the tennis world is Tennis tv, by the way.
- [40:13]
Host 2
Yeah, I mean, well, the ATP media's annual revenue for 2024, not even this year, was $223 million. That was a 10% increase. And that includes tennis TV and tennis TV subscriptions. So it's. And that's just the ATP, which I.
- [40:28]
Host 1
Would bet is like, I mean like significant, like half or more.
- [40:35]
Host 2
Yeah, I Think I would agree with that. Yeah, I would agree with that. But, yeah. So hopefully that's, That's a fixable thing and I think that's an easy. That's an easy thing. And it'd be great for the game. It'd be great for the game to have the best and brightest having the ability to talk eloquently and show case while they're talking about it. Visually, I think it's. It's a no brainer for me.
- [40:56]
Host 1
What else JW.
- [41:01]
Host 3
Tennis had, as always, the support has. So you go back and you look at the calendar and whether it's Victoria and Boko winning in Canada or the, the cousins, there are a number of sort of standalone moments that bring a smile. I wanted to say a quick shout out to listener and big tennis fan Jason Collins, who is going through.
- [41:25]
Host 2
A.
- [41:25]
Host 3
Bit of a rough health situation, but we're thinking of him and he is a force of good in this world. No, I mean, I think it was a strange year for tennis, but I think overall quite an excellent year. And on the men's side, you had two towering champions locked in this rivalry who've really distanced themselves from the field. And on the women's side, you've got four different major winners. We have Amanda Anisimova we haven't talked about. I mean, it's just, it's a really rich cast, not just of characters, but of storylines and cadences. And we've got the crazy, you know, we've got the bublek erratic and we have other steady players who are under the radar, who just get it done week in, week out. It's just, I feel like tennis, for all the gripes and all the sort of scheduling frustrations and all the cannibalizing behavior, big picture, I think this is still a pretty wonderful sport.
- [42:15]
Host 1
It's. It's phenomenal. We rolled from Mount Everest to the continuation of Everest with these, these two in Carlos and Janik. I think we're lucky for it. When you look at who's driving the sport right now, all pretty good people.
- [42:34]
Host 2
Yeah.
- [42:34]
Host 1
All pretty responsible, Right? Like, you know, you. I was talking with someone. It was like, you remember back to the 90s where, like, people were in and out and like you had overbearing tennis parents dominating the headlines. And there was some weird stuff, right? There was, you know, Venus and Serena and the incident ending Wells, and there was like a lot of really big macro type stuff with the big players and it was polarizing. People were angry and there were irresponsible Takes and there were all these things we're looking at now we have like Alcaraz and Sinner now. I understand the suspension. You know, I think what I think, I don't think. I still don't believe that he would knowingly take someone for pretty much no benefit. I don't see why he would do that. I'll never know the answer fully, but I just generally feel like, you know, anyways, it's just we're in good hands and it's hard to. I'm looking at the women's side and we had like three very big redemption wins with people who were the top three in the world, which is a weird thing to have.
- [43:39]
Host 3
You could go four for four on that one.
- [43:40]
Host 1
Yeah, well, Maddie breaking through is like, like the most human story of the year in, in my opinion. Right. And her being so honest and amazing and like, I think you don't get a lot of wins. You get a lot of wins that are amazing but aren't fully tour supported. Right. And I think that one was a win for everyone who's been involved with her. But then you get Coco in the criticism she gets all the time. Right. And observation she gets all the time. And it's like, okay, I'm going to take all that all the time. I'm going to take the attention, I'm going to take the criticism. I'm going to win the French Open. It's unbelievable like that she's as old as she is. She's still so young. Her second slam and it's just like a non stop. And maybe it finally broke a little at the US Open where she actually showed us something that it was like affecting her, but like what a human story that is. That's redemption. IGA coming off of, you know, the announcement late last year and you know, she got completely fucking railroaded by her deal as well. And then coming back and winning Wimbledon after not playing well all year and being very emotional in some posts and Sabalenka losing all the heartbreakers and that's like, how do you have redemption stories with the people who are currently in the top three in the world?
- [44:58]
Host 3
They don't even need redeeming.
- [44:59]
Host 2
That's what I'm saying.
- [44:59]
Host 3
They did it anyway.
- [45:01]
Host 1
It was crazy. I think just to kind of put a button on it. Like we can complain about stuff, we can want stuff to be better. We can have issues with certain players or not. I don't mean players as in like actual players, but like the players inside of the business of tennis. And we can argue and want better and all this stuff. The product is so good, the personalities are so good. I generally think the way that things are being covered are good and will be even better. Right. I think, you know, there's room for dumb podcasts now. I think the way that tennis is changing is generally really good. And I think 98% of Tennis Earth, you know, generally agrees and wants the same things for the sport. Now, obviously there's an element of self protection that everyone has, which maybe to get to the best version, needs to be put on the side for some of those conversations. But generally speaking, like, tennis is having a moment. It's having just a massive moment. We are in such a great spot. And I think that's why I'm so precious about all of the details of the way the business works, of the way the media coverage works, of all this stuff, because there's such an opportunity for tennis right now. Best athletes in the world. I've said it before, I'll say it again. Miss me with any rebuttal. Jw, what do you think?
- [46:24]
Host 3
No rebuttal. Well said and good year. Pleasure working with you guys. As long as we're all chatting here, I think it's really fun year for the served enterprise as well. And yeah, let's. You know, it's funny, we talk sometimes about make. Make us miss it. Right? Like, part of this longer off season is I miss tennis. I'm ready for Australia.
- [46:47]
Host 2
Yeah, it's been a whole solid three weeks.
- [46:50]
Host 3
Yeah, I was gonna say it's been. It's been Tuesday, it's been. It's been 11 hours. But no, ready. Ready for 20, 26.
- [46:55]
Host 1
I can't even like, lazily put on Tennis Channel right now. There's nothing going on, can it? Which is normally my default.
- [47:01]
Host 2
Can I do one? Can I do one more? I think this is a good bump, but I do, I do feel remiss if we didn't mention it as somebody's just been getting into it, but there's so many American stars that are so good, and it couldn't be at a better time, I think, for the growth of the sport in our market. I just, I'd be remiss if we didn't get your take on where you think the growth of US Tennis is.
- [47:23]
Host 1
Yeah, I mean, I think there's what you see at like a macro level with we have multiple people to choose from in the top 10. Like, unfortunately, as it in. In US men's tennis, it's going to.
- [47:35]
Sponsor Voice 2
Be.
- [47:38]
Host 1
Slam one or. Or this this streak continues.
- [47:43]
Host 2
Yeah.
- [47:43]
Host 1
And that misses all nuance. Right? It was, I remember one year, and I love Stevie Johnson, but he was the highest ranked American seeded player at the US Open. He was ranked like 22 or 25 or something. And we're going to pretend like that's the same as it is right now with, with Taylor and Ben. And, you know, Tommy Paul missed half the year and was top 20. Right. And Francis and like, you know, Lerner TN. And I mean, there's volume. We have volume covered. We just need. And by the way, no one's breaking through against these two. It's not just us. Right? And then you go to the women's side and it's just. I mean, Maddie's just. I mean, what a human star. Coco taking all that pressure. Jess Pagula's like, it's just we're in such a great spot.
- [48:25]
Host 2
Ana Samova.
- [48:26]
Host 1
Ana Samova. I mean, her story this year, we even talk to her, talk about her on this, which is like malpractice. Like, she's so great. There are so many great stories to be told. We come on every week and there might have been a week where it's like, hey, we got to figure out something to talk about. The script is written for us most weeks.
- [48:45]
Host 2
Yeah.
- [48:46]
Host 1
Now we have to research. We have to be responsible. You know, I think we pride ourselves on if we're going to get into a lawsuit, why we think it's dumb and like, actually detailing the points of it as opposed to not actually having a detailed opinion. But that's on us. But like, the script writes itself. We have the easiest job in the world. We come and report on excellence, and if it's not perfect, we talk about, all right, what adjustments need to be made. Right. But like this, this is the easiest job in the world because of the players and because of the people that support this sport in a great place. American tennis is in a great place. Worldwide tennis is in a great place. Revenues have never been higher. Interest has never been higher in the Slams and in these players, and it's just. It's just looney tunes. I think we all feel speak for all of us here at served. I know we feel so lucky to be like the smallest part of. Of tennis orbit. We know that you've loved the year. That was thing about sports, it always gets better. Players are going to be better 20 years from now than they were 20 years ago.
- [49:47]
Host 2
Yeah.
- [49:48]
Host 1
Anyone who tells you differently is lying to you or themselves. Thank you for watching served. We will be back through the holidays. We have some top 20 ATP shows with some honorable mentions. Same thing for the WTA, which will get you primed going into 2026. Have a great holiday season. Check in with us. AI is only as powerful as the platform it's built on. With the ServiceNow AI platform, your AI data and workflows all work together, connecting every corner of your business. To see how you can put AI to work for people, visit servicenow.com AI agents.