Mike (4:14)

Well, listen, I don't know that I will ever, ever, ever question a player who takes the long view on an injury. Especially like I, I know Carlos is seven majors in right. And he's walking through the shadows of greats pretty much month to month right now. But with the players that you name JW and I'm glad you shouted them out. Juan Martin del Potro. I, I'm thankful. It seems like this week he's getting a ton of love from you know, I heard on, on, on Different Pocket, Jim Courier was talking about him and I'm, I'm happy that people realize the, the, the enormous potential that, that he had and how good he was. Not even just potential because a lot of it was realized. And then Dominique team. Right. Like if you're Carlos, I'm hoping that sets in. It's disappointing for us as fans, but in the macro view, it's like, why on earth would you risk anything if you're Carlos Alcaraz, you know, one major versus pushing something. I. We don't know whether it is yet. I don't like I know for a fact you can't play through a Monte Carlo final and then a Barcelona first round. Was it two or three days later. If you have tears or tendons or you know, whatever it is, it's not something that you can like grin and bear it. So I'm hoping this is precautionary it based on the information that we have so far, which is not a lot past his Instagram post which I might have you just read at the end of this. It doesn't seem extreme. Like JW said, we hope that's not the case. I mean, sorry. We hope the case is that it's not an extreme injury. I guess better safe than sorry when you have someone who's as young, explosive and kind of the only concern between him and continuing his march through tennis history is health. Right. So I guess you protect that at all costs if you're in the Alcaraz camp.

JW (5:55)

I went down the rabbit hole a little bit. Who's had wrist injuries and you don't really, you know, Novak Djokovic had a wrist injury. Roger Federer and I think it was 2018. Had a. Had a hand. I mentioned Nadal, Serena Williams had her wrist wrapped. Again, you don't mess around with wrists, but did you ever have that?

Mike (6:12)

Do you ever have a. Yeah, I had my left. I had my left wrist one time injury. I dove on a match point against Ellen AUI in a long match there and I landed on my wrist. And so I played the semifinal there against Shler with basically a chip backhand and I couldn't. I didn't really do much. It came back. It wasn't anything that cost me any amount of time, but I think I had to pull out of maybe one event, missed three or four weeks. But it certainly wasn't on the right wrist and it wasn't because of. There's a difference between like if you land on a wrist and you bruise it versus like your stroke production is grinding your wrist in a certain way that you can't get away from which is. Which is Very different. Mine was, I landed. There was an injury. It wasn't based on the way I was hitting the ball. Like a team or maybe a one Martin, where, you know, your body just couldn't take that extreme stroke production. So. Yes and no. Had a wrist injury. It wasn't the same as the people trying to produce, you know, violent spin through, you know, in your wrist, saying, you know, I can't actually physically do this. Do you want to read his, his post?

Producer Mike (7:20)

Yeah. On Friday, on the 24th, he had put out on Instagram. He said, after the results of the test carried out today, we have decided that the most prudent thing to do is to be cautious and not participate in Rome or Roland Garris as we wait to evaluate the progress so we can decide when to return to court. This is a difficult time for me, but I'm sure we will come out of it stronger. You know, obviously they're not going to rush this thing. Is there any concern about even Wimbledon at this point?

Mike (7:48)

Of course, because we don't know anything.

Producer Mike (7:49)

Yeah.

Mike (7:50)

If you're pulling out a term in four weeks in advance. Yeah, I mean, you're, you're, you're definitely concerned. We don't know what the. We're guessing, we're guessing based on context clues. Right. If you finished a match in Barcelona, you know, I know you called the trainer during that. It feels like wear and tear as opposed to, like I say, the, like if you yank the strings on an electric guitar, right. That sort of pain, like, you don't play through that. You don't play a Monte Carlo final, you don't play the next round in Barcelona. So we're hoping it's not like a major injury where you hit one ball and all of a sudden you pull up and you know something's, something's wrong. Like we've seen before, the context glues don't suggest that it's something that was ripped, torn in a major way. And we hope that's the case, you know, but like, what am I? I do podcasts. I'm not a doctor, so I think we wait and see. But yeah, I mean, if, if someone pretty young who, by the way, has not been scared to take tournaments off. Going into Roland Garros the past two years, he's either missed Madrid or Rome each of the last two years. One year with a forearm injury and then a couple last year it was. He got hurt in Barcelona again. So maybe don't play back to back weeks on clay anymore. Right. You've gotten hurt in Barcelona while trying to tack it on to Monte Carlo the last couple of years. I know it's easier said than done. Local pressures and it's in your hometown and everything else, but curious if you kind of take a step back and you start scheduling maybe a little bit differently. Listen, the thing that struck me when players were asked about Carlos was this thing like Zverev kind of almost like epitomize it. He's like, okay, well, on the plus side, it's one less to go through if I want to win a Grand Slam. So that I'm not going to, like, sugarcoat and say that my path isn't easier if he's not there, right? One of the two major, you know, beating one of them is different than two of them. And he's like, I fully am sad and understand the fact that when Carlos isn't there, it's a major hit to tennis, right? Two things can be true. And I thought he kind of threaded that needle pretty well with, with his response. But, yeah, I mean, it opens it up for someone like as Vera for, you know, this, this aged version of. Of Novak, right. It maybe gives you a little bit of hope where, you know, going through one. You know, Novak's gone through one. He went through one, you know, in Australia, and he went through one last year in Australia. So, you know, if you're Novak, you're going, okay, well, maybe 25 and Zverev equally is going, maybe one. But before we get to Taco Gate, going through one is going to be pretty hard. Right. Center, obviously, looking at the career grand slam to JW's point would be the second consecutive career grand slam. Both guys 24 or younger. Like, that's on the heels of the big three. That's insane. Like, okay, well, the next two are just going to come out and win the career Grand Slam by the time they're 24. I mean, there's a lot at stake. Sinner pumped the gas, right? We were just on a heater right? Now he's on a heater. And listen, I know that I talk a lot of shit about the long masters 1000s. If you have confidence in a bottle and you're like, sinner, and you know, you're. It's going to be, you know, you play one match, you get a day off to play. It's probably easier to commit to Madrid and Rome. It's in that scenario right now if you're, you know, there's. There are only so many sinners who have fully captured confidence and have it to the tune of. What is he, 1, 24.

Producer Mike (11:13)

As. As of right now, he's. When this comes out, he'll be playing again. But he has 24 consecutive wins in Masters 1000's events, which is the fourth longest streak in history, only behind Novak, who did it with 31, then again did it with 30, and then Roger did it, and then now center.

JW (11:28)

Yeah, we sometimes we toss these stats out. It sounds impressive. I mean, look at where he has won those and under what conditions and who he's had to beat. And we're talking about clay and we're talking about Indian Wells grit, we're talking about Miami World Tour Finals, I think. Tell me if I'm Talon Griegspoor, is that the answer to our trivia question? That the last player to beat him?

Producer Mike (11:47)

Oh, that's a good question.

Mike (11:49)

Oh, you mean in a, In a Master's event?

Producer Mike (11:52)

In Masters 1000, yeah, in a Masters event, yeah.

JW (11:54)

When you say 24 in a row, that's.

Mike (11:56)

That's unbelievable. Recall. And also, like, at the risk of beating a dead horse, apparently that tournament was like standing on the sun.

JW (12:07)

Right.

Mike (12:07)

So it's like if there's, if there's. If there's one thing, you know, that that could potentially help is, I guess if, like you're about to play sooner, you're just cheering for the sun to be out. Honestly. I mean, it's like Greek sport. But it was like.

Producer Mike (12:21)

Yeah, it was Greek sport and it was a retirement.

Mike (12:24)

Yeah. Because he was playing. The court was like a million degrees, which, you know, I don't want to get on my vash real quick again, but it makes it even, even more impressive. But I don't know. I mean, there's a lot of, A lot of storylines, obviously. We wish. I kind of want. I kind of wish. One of my biggest things, obviously you want Carlos healthy, but also in the kind of postmortem of, of last year's final. It would have just been so fun if those two were trending towards each other again in that venue because it was one of the best matches, one of the best sporting events that you'll ever see in your life. So it stinks that we're a month out and there's no chance of, of the repeater. Right. That stinks. But, Mike, do you like, do you like tacos?

Producer Mike (13:08)

I do. I love. I love tacos.

Mike (13:09)

You do? Would you eat a taco in Madrid right now?

Producer Mike (13:11)

I don't know. I don't know. Based on what Jim Currier and everybody's talking about on Tennis Channel. I don't know. But it might, might not be the tacos. It might be, might be a mixture of tacos and, and general stomach bug.

Mike (13:23)

I hate to say we can predict the future, but if you go back to last week's episode, what did I say the stadium looked like? Ooh, what did I say it looked like?

Producer Mike (13:30)

You said it looked like a Chipotle.

Mike (13:31)

The stadium, Kaha Mahika looks like the inside of a Chipotle restaurant. People getting sick from tacos. I don't know. Get your hats, get your tinfoil hats out. Get the tinfoil hats out. Just saying.

JW (13:44)

Google. Google Chipotle food poisoning, by the way. No, this, I mean, honestly, like for the record, I believe the catering company has denied. I mean, let's, you know, we want

Producer Mike (13:56)

to be fair here. So let me, let me give the headline, right?

Mike (13:58)

Just to be clear, Chipotle is not the catering sponsor of Kaha Mexica. They just might have the same interior designer. That's all. Chipotle sponsor us. We love you.

Producer Mike (14:05)

We love Chipotle.

Mike (14:05)

Okay. Love Chipotle hat yesterday.

Producer Mike (14:07)

I think 31 players have withdrawn or retired from the Madrid Open so far across both draws up from 21 on Friday. 17 women are now either withdrawn or retired in Madrid. Illness clusters mid tournament hit people like IGA Samsonova, Matty Keys, Coco Golf's throwing up on court and still winning. Chillis was pulled out. So it's, it's definitely a little bit all over the place in terms of people feeling ill. But Coco did say she did not eat the tacos.

Mike (14:39)

Oh, okay. Well, I feel like I, I love tacos and I'm thankful that they're being defended properly and it's, you know, I don't want to, I don't want them to take the fall.

JW (14:50)

Wait, wait. Serious question.

Mike (14:51)

Yes.

JW (14:51)

You're at a tournament and you know they, they're serving crab enchilada. I mean do you think about what you're eating and saying, you know what, it looks good, but probably not the shrimp taco. The risk reward for shrimp taco seems

Mike (15:06)

to not a big, not a big fit. Listen that whatever the catering is, is, is a pop up store for that week. Not a big fan of pop up fish. Gotta be honest, that's not the one for me. Pop up seafood. Nope. Yeah, I'm not going there.

Producer Mike (15:19)

Yeah, I'm not a big fan of buffet seafood.

Mike (15:21)

It's like Sinner. I was kind of same way. But Sinner was like, I go in, I practice, I get out and that was kind of, you know, what I did, too. But, like, I don't know. I. I guess by the time you're. You're rationally making those decisions based on the feedback of the tournament, which at this point hasn't been good, it's probably too late.

Producer Mike (15:37)

Yeah.

Mike (15:38)

I mean, you're.

Producer Mike (15:38)

You're.

Mike (15:39)

You're next to everyone in line. You're. Everyone says hello. Everyone does the D PI 5, the. We all hug each other. We're like, that shit's a tinderbox for a virus.

Producer Mike (15:50)

Yeah.

Mike (15:51)

Like, there's no.

Producer Mike (15:53)

There's.

Mike (15:53)

There's no doubt about it.

Producer Mike (15:54)

I would love to go a month where we're not talking about food. Why I love her for a tour event. There was something funny, though, which it's since been. A comment has since been deleted, but WTA posted a score of Coco winning that match. And. And obviously the comments were all over the place. And one. And one guy wrote, a champion in faking illness. An Oscar for Coco. And Corey Goff got into the replies, which I think it's since been deleted, but he wrote, I got time today. I guess you didn't see throwing up in the garbage with your egghead.

Mike (16:28)

It's so stupid. Like, I love that.

Producer Mike (16:30)

Defending his daughter.

JW (16:31)

Don't feed the trolls, man.

Producer Mike (16:32)

Great, dad.

Mike (16:34)

But also, like, online idiocy is sometimes undefeated. Like, there's a lot of great. Like, memes are great. There's a lot of value.

JW (16:43)

Right?

Producer Mike (16:43)

But.

Mike (16:43)

But also, what has Coco done to ever make us think that she's going to, like, grandstand on, like, an injury? All she does is show up in the best of times and the worst of times, like, always. Right? I mean, someone physically vomiting into a bush, what does that get you? Like, let's say that. Let's just say that she was faking. Let's just entertain this psycho for a second. And I'm glad Corey got in there. And side note, don't want to fight Corey. Just, Just. We've always gotten that going great. I've only seen the. I've only seen the fantastic sides of Corey. And if he had time that day, I would not have time that day. Just, I got time.

Producer Mike (17:26)

Today is one of the scariest things to precede something else.

Mike (17:31)

That is the best way.

Producer Mike (17:32)

Yeah.

Mike (17:33)

To, like, stake your claim, say your piece without being like, you want to fuck. Like, obviously you can't go. But, like, I got. That's. It was fantastic. But also, what does it get Coco? All it does is show her opponent that she might be tired, she can run it doesn't do anything. Yeah, like, faking. It doesn't, like, doesn't do anything.

JW (17:51)

She's vomiting, too. You know, if any injury is not

Mike (17:55)

faked, I will tell you this.

JW (17:56)

Like.

Mike (17:57)

Anyway, this is a side departure because I want to get to the new sensation here in a second. Yodar.

Producer Mike (18:05)

Odar.

Mike (18:06)

Yeah, I want to get there in one second. But just a side note. I remember this is, like, the shady shit that my mom. She's like, if you ever have to vomit, if you ever. Like, it's junior tennis. It's like, you know, you're playing in, like, San Antonio, where it's a thousand degrees and you're having to play 17 matches in a day as a junior, if you ever have to vomit, go in the middle of court, it's going to take at least 20 minutes to clean it up.

JW (18:29)

Your mom. Your mom said that?

Mike (18:30)

Yeah, my mom said that.

Producer Mike (18:31)

That's next level.

Mike (18:32)

Yeah. 100.

JW (18:33)

That's our upset of the day.

Producer Mike (18:34)

Did you ever.

Mike (18:34)

Oh, no, that's not an upset. You just don't know my mom well. Oh, man. Yeah. Yeah, that's.

JW (18:39)

That's a great. Wait, wait. Stop there. That's a great tactic. You're right. In theory, you'd have to clean it up. That buys you 20 minutes to, like. All right, Blanche Roddick coming in from the top rope.

Mike (18:50)

That's a good one. You're not breaking a rule. Because it's probably not. I don't. You know. I don't know. I don't know.

Producer Mike (18:55)

You know, it's like when I spilled that drink courtside at the game.

Mike (18:58)

I know.

Producer Mike (18:58)

The Mavericks were on a heater. Boom.

Mike (19:00)

Apparently. All I'm saying is that apparently Corey Goff didn't coach Coco. He could have gotten 20 minutes in air conditioning. And I'm scared of Corey Goff.

JW (19:10)

That concludes the vomit section of today's show.

Producer Mike (19:14)

Maybe we should take a break.

Mike (19:15)

You want to take a break?

Producer Mike (19:16)

Yeah, let's take a break. We'll get to Hood. All right, after.

Mike (19:18)

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Mike (20:52)

All right, welcome back to serve. Brought to you by ServiceNow a little break. We learned something. Mike. That was good timing.

Producer Mike (21:00)

We did.

Mike (21:02)

Welcome to doing a show on a Monday and having it air on a Tuesday. When you do a little 3, 4, 5 minute segment on Coco Golf. Then you go to break and then Techi Sean informs you that she just lost live on television. You all will know this because you're listening on Tuesday, but Coco post vomit gate. Post vomit gate goes down to Noscoba 3 said tiebreaker. Yeah, tough one. You know who is playing like he's anything but sick this week? Hodar.

Producer Mike (21:33)

Hodar.

Mike (21:34)

Thank goodness there's finally a good player from Spain. Thank goodness. It's about time.

Producer Mike (21:39)

It's so annoying.

JW (21:41)

Let's just level set on Friday we had that, that real bummer, that announcement from Alcaraz and you just whatever the Spanish word for bummer is.

Mike (21:47)

You're like this sucks.

JW (21:48)

Literally three hours later there is a Spanish player beating top 10, Alex Diminor. Like in an hour.

Producer Mike (21:55)

A teenager, mind you, a 19 year old from Madrid.

Mike (21:59)

I'll tell you this, like you look for certain scorelines against certain types of players. Like if you would like in our generation, it would have been if you had a 19 year old, let's say it was del Potro coming up and all of a sudden he takes out like a David Ferrer three and two. You're going oh shit. Like when a young player goes after the type of player like a demon and rolls them, you're going, oh, this, this had this has something elite attached to it. Is it ball striking? Is it all of the above? Is it you, you, you're not just going to beat Demon on craftiness, consistency, athleticism. There has to be like an elite, elite skill set to do that. And then to go and. And beat Fonseca also like this. This kid's rolling. I mean, it's real deal.

Producer Mike (22:46)

The Demon win was his first career top 10 win. And then currently he has 17 wins in his first 25 career ATP matches.

Mike (22:55)

Silly.

Producer Mike (22:55)

That's a better start than Nadal, Federer, Novak, Alcarez, Sinner and Fonseca.

JW (23:01)

Yeah, we were, we were talking about this on Tennis Channel. Courier gets the hat tip on this. Hodard's like, top 20 in the rolling rankings.

Mike (23:09)

Yep.

Producer Mike (23:10)

Wow.

JW (23:11)

So this is a big week for him. He's from Madrid, he's playing in Madrid. It's this real breakthrough tournament, but it's not like he came out of nowhere. I mean, he's ahead of, like, Taylor Fritt. I mean, he's top 20 in the rankings from January 1st.

Mike (23:23)

So.

JW (23:24)

Boy, what a. What a smooth transition from college. What a revelation. I don't know if you've seen him play. He's just easy, power. It's about. I don't have in front of me. He's like six, three, a buck 60. Like, he's not exactly, you know, he's just easy, smooth player who hits with a lot of juice.

Mike (23:43)

I watched him, and that's one of the telltale signs, jw. I'm glad you mentioned I watched him. We played that thing in Dallas and I kind of had an hour between stuff and he was playing on center, so I went out and I was like, I need to see this kid. I went out and watched probably six or seven games live, because live tells a different story than on TV sometimes. And you nailed it, jw. Like, every ball is coming off hot without the intent of, like, I'm going to step in and punish one, right? He's got that, like, slingshot, those long levers, you know, and it seems like he's matching up the movement with. With the ability to hit it big. Because when you see someone young who hits it as big as he does, you're going, okay, is he going to be able to get in position all the time to give the ball a ride? And in February, the quality is matched. The court's a little bit faster, so maybe, I don't know. And then fast forward to, like, late April, beginning of May, and you're going, yep, it's sinking up, and it's sinking up very quickly. And it doesn't feel like, you know, sometimes when you See a young player, it's like, oh, they caught a hot streak. And this is, you know, the wins are maybe form dependent. This doesn't feel form dependent. This feels extremely reliable. There's not one part of you watch his matches against Demon and Fonseca. It doesn't feel like he's just riding a wave. It feels like this is clinical and this is kind of just the way I am in my. Am I a victim of the moment?

JW (25:11)

Jw, you are not. You know, and this is a guy who spent at least, you know, basically a freshman year at UVA and said, we're good, uva. By the way, someone had this post. Wish I could credit the person. I don't have it in front of me. Nice. Nice recruiting class. Fonseca and Hodar in the same recruiting class. We can talk later about nil, but that's a nice recruitment. No, this guy, he's so solid. Not named, by the way. Let's just clear this up. Not named for Rafa Nadal, despite that rumor going around. But he's there. He's coached by his dad, he's from Madrid, which brings an extra level of. Of pressure. And again, it's one of these eye test things. I'm thinking Fatseka's probably like, wait, I thought I was the hot young 19 year old. He doesn't turn. I don't. Let me. I think he said September. September birthday. I think so. He's still. He'll be 19 at the U.S. open. Still. It's funny too. We were looking, we were trying to find, you know, you do one of these deep dives when a kid makes a run. You're trying to pick up what you can. And his listed coaches were the UVA coach and his father. And then the very first line of his. Wikipedia says, like, his father's not a player. So you're watching his matches. There's no agent and there's only dad in the players box. And dad's not a player. So I'm not quite sure sort of where he's getting this confidence and some of this professionalism and some of this court sense, but this kid has got it. And it's entirely possible he'll be seeded for more majors this year.

Mike (26:41)

It's interesting also, like, it's, it's. Is this going to be a good thing for Fonseca? Like, it's weird when you're like kind of the up and coming guy and then you take your first loss to someone who is your age or younger. I don't know. Where, where the crossover is. I know it's. They're within months of each other, but, like, when you've been the hype guy for two years, you skip uva, the other guy goes, you win some titles, the other guy's in college. Little known fact. You told me before we went on, Hodar also got kicked out of a college tournament for. For what?

Producer Mike (27:10)

Yeah, he, like, chucked a ball against the fence in the, in the. Deemed it.

Mike (27:14)

Why do I like that stuff?

Producer Mike (27:15)

I don't know. That was my reaction, too.

Mike (27:17)

I'm like, I love it.

Producer Mike (27:17)

Sweet.

Mike (27:18)

Yeah. I'm like, oh, he's got a little

Producer Mike (27:19)

match because he got heated.

Mike (27:20)

He's got a little bit of feeling, but I don't know, it's. It's interesting. It's like losing to someone younger than him on, on. On Claire or just older than him, but whatever his age, his. His. His first, I guess, natural peer, you know, that. That's legitimately like JW saying top 20 in the year to date rankings. It's interesting, but, I mean, it's pretty fun. You know, at this point, we're looking for that next group, and everything ends, begins and ends with Alcaraz and center. And so we're looking at 19 year olds, whether it's Fonseca or Hodar, and we're going, all right, what do they look like a year from now? Is this going to be like, you know, maybe if their bodies aren't ready yet and, you know, three out of five is different. Like, don't everyone go crazy if Hodar loses a tough five setter and Roland Garris, like, you don't get anointed. You have to earn your place. But be interesting. Listen, I don't know that I've ever seen tennis in a worse place when we have great prospects to watch. Right? So I think, I think, I think that's fantastic. Listen, I don't. I've been having conversations, and this is. I have no idea where this conversation is going to go. And I'm really interested in, in, in you all's opinion also, but on the nil of things, obviously, Patrick McEnroe was basically going off on, you know, I don't want to say jobs being taken, tennis roster spots being taken by international players. And that's one issue. Arkansas SEC school gets rid of the tennis program on Thursday. On Thursday. Isner has been very outspoken about it. Patrick seemed upset about it. Went on Newsmax and talked about the internationals taking our jobs. You know, it's. It. It's an Interesting thing, because the. I say things like, okay, we wanted this free market system of payment for college athletes and for. For tennis players, and now we're kind of against the, you know, the.

JW (29:13)

The fallout.

Mike (29:13)

Like, we made it a free market. We've made it. Basically, we've made it acting inside of the bounds of. Of capitalism, where if you have someone generating money and your sports not. And by the way, I think it's bullshit. I would love Arkansas to tell us why other sports are losing more money and tennis gets cut. That's a very, very, very, like, why.

Producer Mike (29:33)

Yeah. Can I set the table on this, please, a little bit? So. So they announced at the end of the week that they were cutting the tennis program. This comes on the heels of, obviously, you know, the Division 1 cabinet ruled that if you're. You're not committed to a school, you can accept prize money, but the second you commit to a school, you still can't accept prize money. There's challenges with the rulings here in the United States with nil and how to evaluate international students access to nil compared to American students. There's television rights deals. You know, there's the way the funds are all kind of committed around to different things. But one thing we were. We were looking at for context, the 2025 financial report for Razorback athletics was. Was reported. And women's tennis and men's tennis are the least of the losers of all of the sports, right? Football is the only one. Football makes significant money, made $30 million. Men's basketball made $4 million. Then women's tennis lost a million. Men's tennis lost 1.2 million. Now, every other sport that's on there, Men's golf, women's golf, gymnastics, volleyball, swimming, diving, soccer, softball, baseball, track and field, and then women's basketball, at the very bottom, all also lost more money individually. And women's basketball lost 6.4 million. And so if you think about it from an economic standpoint, you're like, why. Why is this getting cut? But in background conversations, it's. It's media. It's. It's what is. What is really valuable in the grand scheme of things. And I Just for context, that's kind of where it sits financially.

JW (31:05)

Do you think these dovetail? I'm looking right now. Just pull this up. This is the Arkansas tennis roster, and the players are from Slovenia, France, Israel, Brisbane, Australia. Seville, Prague, Little Rock, Slovakia, Austin, Texas. So you have two American players on the roster. And if you're an athletic director and you say, oh, man, I'm Going to catch some heat. I've got their parents, they're taxpayers and whatever it is, eight of the 10 kids are not from the United States. Do we think that might have an impact? Maybe?

Mike (31:38)

I mean, I think the Olympic sports of things matters and I know people are going to go, well, tennis is an Olympic sport, yes, but no one's qualifying for the Olympics by making a semifinal run at the NCAA tournament. It's just not happening. Right. Like, you don't qualify for the Olympics through NCAA tennis. Whereas, you know, you can still get into trials as an NCAA athlete and qualify for the Olympics. We see it every Olympics, someone from Baylor winning a gold or someone from somewhere else winning a golden in track and field or what have you. It's weird because there are parts of tennis separate from the NCAA where we go, okay, well, someone else is paying for you to exist, right? So someone else is paying. The role of football and tennis is one of the sports, basically. It's always outside of, for the most part, and I'm sure there are some exceptions, so save me. But for the most part, generally, as a rule, football makes money, basketball might make money, and then after that, it's a struggle to make money. Right. It does depend what's included in the TV deals. Right. So it's not just based on the tennis program lost this. But if there's a bundle or a package, and soccer is good filler as opposed to having to watch six matches on six courts all at the same time. Tennis, college tennis is tougher to watch.

JW (32:55)

Right.

Mike (32:55)

So all of those factors matter. But it's weird. You go, okay, well, this is free markets doing its thing. This is capitalism without social safety nets. Right? And we don't like it because it's sports. But we don't often try to cross over between politics and tennis on the show. We normally try to save for a snarky comment here or there. We normally try to keep it on the rails of tennis. But this is almost impossible politically. Someone I talk to who is very passionate, has a history in college tennis and has been very outspoken about it was basically like, well, they fucked up and Congress now has to fix it. I'm going, okay, so we're expecting this Congress under its current control, to restrain capitalism at work. That was a choice to allow nil. Well, why doesn't that just apply to football and basketball? So you want to carve out the money making sports from this conversation. Like, yeah, I don't know. The one solution that seems like it would fix some things as far as tennis and maybe others. Sports is an age limit, right? Is there a difference? I have no issue with someone coming here and playing tennis. Listen, if you're not good enough to beat someone from Slovenia or France or whatever, and there's 100 some odd Division 1 tennis programs, then maybe you're not a Division 1 tennis player. Okay? And I know I'm going to get pushback, blowback from a lot of people that I'm friends with for, for saying that, you know. But also it sucks because tennis is, like you said, it's the least biggest loser in this whole thing. So if you're applying those free market metrics and we're outperforming a lot of people that still have a job, then it's picking and choosing. That's not a free market at work.

JW (34:45)

Let me ask you this. You favor an age cap. How would you feel provided legally? You could pull this off of saying, look, having foreign players is great. It enriches the team, it's a learning experience. But we can't have 8 of 10, 3 of 10.

Mike (35:00)

Okay, so how do you, how do you fix that without singling out, without singling out nations and where people are born? Through what I've looked at. Right. And this is as much as I can. Listen, I'm sure there's going to be people that know a lot more about me than this. Overwhelmingly, the players that are over 23 or what you would think of as like a normal college age are international players. Right? Do I think a 25 year old should be playing college tennis? Probably not. Especially if you spent five years playing challengers and other pro events to come back in. And they've had it in basketball. They had someone who was drafted by the Hornets who now is playing at Baylor. It's a joke, right? So I think the age limit isn't the solution. It's a speed bump in the road of basically paying the bills for someone to come play tennis professionally but under the guise of education. Is a 26 year old going to come back and they care about their education? If they're not in like post, you know, some.

Producer Mike (35:57)

Yeah, if they, sir, if they served in the military or something like that, like I think there can be complete exemptions, right? But if you graduated and you chose to go do something else that wasn't like that.

Mike (36:06)

If you're, if you're asking Congress to supplement people playing sports in school and that's your social safety net, but you're getting rid of other things in life that are critical to living as a social Safety net. I don't think this can be fixed politically. So I don't see. And I've asked a million times, and I've tried to get smart on this. Everyone knows the problem. Everyone's angry about the problem. Right. And I don't disagree with any of it. Where are the off ramps?

JW (36:37)

I just want to be sure our audience understands what we're, you know, because we've kind of glossed over this for maybe for an international audience. We have a lot of international players in college tennis. What's happened recently? In the last three, four years, there have been rulings, Supreme Court rulings, and now athletes in these revenue sports are able to be paid. So the athletic departments are saying, wait a second, we're going to divert our resources. We need $150,000 to pay for that backup. Tight end. Why are we funding a tennis team that's losing a million dollars a year? And so there have been a lot of foreign players in college tennis for a lot of time. But it's really sharpened recently when these athletic departments now have to figure out a way to pay revenue sport athletes.

Producer Mike (37:16)

Just so we all know it. To qualify for the fbs, which is the real thing that anybody cares about, right. To qualify for, like, the BOLD championships and all that stuff, I think the school has to have a minimum of 16 sports, right? So this gets them down to 17. Right. So they're just cutting whatever they can to get as much minimum out the door. But I think Robert Cox, which is their former Arkansas head coach, gave an interview recently and said, my immediate thought is we can still save the sport. It's the cheapest sport on campus. It's nothing in the grand scheme. 2.5 million for both men and women combined for an athletic program with 200 million in annual revenue. I mean. I mean, it's. When you think about the grand scheme of the number. But then.

Mike (37:59)

So talk about the revenue again that the.

Producer Mike (38:02)

The athletic program does. 200 million in annual revenue. So he's saying, how can we not afford 2.5 million? And then to that. To that point, you're like, all right, like, yeah. I mean, why. Why can't they go find a booster to just privately fund this if it's that important?

Mike (38:17)

And this is gossip. So take it on face value, as I've been arguing with people I like over the last three days about kind of, you want. Yeah, we. We want the. We want everyone to be paid. College deserves to be paid. It's really hard. And then they get paid and they go, oh, no, no, no, not that way. Not like that. But to your point, I think it would take my knee jerk reaction to Coach Cox and I, I listen, I can't imagine what, what he's dealing with right now. That sucks for, like, to go into a locker room of people that look up to you.

Producer Mike (38:51)

He retired in 2013.

Mike (38:52)

No, no, but I'm just saying, like, even, even being someone who has to have an opinion about fucking it, it sucks. That being said, we need to know what sports are included in any TV contract because net gains and losses based on operating expenses versus people buying tickets is very different than if soccer is included in a TV deal and tennis is not. Doesn't translate as well to a TV deal as Phil. Right, as Phil. And the value sometimes is there's a great night session on the ATB tour and we need something to fill three or four hours. Yeah, right. And so taking into account where the value adds are with that sport and if tennis actually fills that void, get to the piece of gossip I've heard that they're trying to, through private donations, get that program back. I hope it happens. I, and listen, I, I, I, I've been accused the last couple days when I've just been trying to kind of, once someone told me I'm trying to poke holes, it's like, yeah, well, that's, that's how you find if water's leaking. But I love college tennis. I've been, My brother played four years at Georgia, like my entire upbringing. I thought I was heading right there. Right. I love college tennis. Nobody in this realm or orbit wants less tennis, wants less opportunity. Right. It's simply, if we vote for this thing where people get paid, you can't act shocked when capitalism happens. Like, that's not, we're not like, oh, my God, how could we ever have figured this out? Well, when something's profitable, and I call these universities companies now because that's basically what they are. When something is not profitable in a company and someone else is basically paying for them to exist, it becomes risky. Once you take out the carrot, once the carrot is not education, but it's paying people to be on your roster, it's a totally different playing field, and we can't act shocked by the consequences is my only point.

JW (40:53)

Yeah, again, I think we're talking about two things that dovetail. I think Patrick's point was much more about just how many of these roster spots are being taken by foreign players, which I would argue makes these sports that much more vulnerable to cutting. And then you're also, you're right now, especially in this nil world, we're talking about these balance sheets that are way out of whack and football and basketball are supporting sports like tennis that are losing 100x whatever small revenue they're pulling in. Let me ask you a crazy question because one of the ironies, I think in tennis. What did we just talk about in our last segment? Hodar? The irony of all this is that college tennis has never been more essential to the sport. I mean, if you look at sort of the organism of professional tennis right now, college tennis has now become the feeder system. Whether it's go down the list, it's Ben Shelton, then it's Diana Schneider. Does tennis, do the tours have some obligation here? I mean, the ATP is not going to bankroll all of college tennis, but there's, you know, there are funds set aside for transition tours. Do the tours not have an obligation when college tennis has played such an essential role now of minting pros, do the tours not have some role here?

Mike (42:00)

I have a million questions. I'm going to start with the point where we need a clear like, if we're complaining about college tennis going, let's be very clear about what is the priority with having a great college tennis system. Right. And education. Student athlete, life's a teacher. I'm fully in all in. Couldn't be more in.

JW (42:25)

Right.

Mike (42:26)

Do we want opportunities for Americans in America when it comes to producing tennis players? Absolutely. There is no doubt 1,000%. And I think an argument can be made that because this competition is so stiff and because there's there are players from other places, college tennis players have never, ever in the history of college tennis, outside of like John McEnroe, been more ready to play on tour when they are done with college or done with a year of college. Spaziri Zhang, Quinn Hodar, Ben, Danielle Collins. Like, it just Emma Navarro. It just keeps going and going and going. It was rare when isner made top 10 and James would make top 10 from college. Like it was, it was like, oh, that's, that's, that's cool. I mean, listen, the competition could be stiffer and it might take up, you know, the, the lion's share of Americans playing Division 1 tennis. I don't think that anyone can argue that it is maybe the single biggest training tool, to John's point, in all of tennis right now. So if the goal is like, listen, let's have players ready to try to take a stab at tour after college, then the system's working. Then the system's working, you know, but all the other stuff, it's just. It takes each person saying what they prioritize with college, you know, And I don't necessarily agree that from a development standpoint that this is bad for American players. I understand that someone's going to argue that Hodar, you know, trained in America for a year, essentially. Great. And there's, you know, 27Americans that got to see what that ball felt like. Yeah, right. So, like, I could make that argument. It's just confusing. I hope there is some order at some way, shape or form. The thing I disagree with strongly, I don't know if you're 26. Is that what college sports is for? And I think that that opinion is consistent for me across. And, Mike, I'm glad you said something about, like, service or, you know, military service or something else. Context matters. Nuance matters in all these conversations. But listen, I guess what I. Is this the tip of the spear? Like, is the Arkansas thing, and obviously, the outrage that has been associated with it and the worry, I think worry is almost manifesting as outrageous.

Producer Mike (44:51)

Right?

Mike (44:51)

Like, it's like, I'm worried, therefore I'm pissed.

Producer Mike (44:53)

Is this the canary in the coal mine or.

Mike (44:55)

Yeah, I mean, what do you mean of the avalanche? What do you guys think about that? Because I don't. I don't see any guardrails right now past the 16 sports. And you hope it slides in as, you know, one of the lesser losers. But, like, is that where this emotion is coming from is, like, we hope this isn't the tip of the spear.

JW (45:11)

It's. It's. It's ominous. And again, this is a different college sports universe than five years ago. You know, we should acknowledge, at some level, Title IX plays a role here as well. I think men's sports, men's tennis is much more vulnerable than women's. But, yeah, I mean, it's interesting at some level, this kind of traces bigger themes, right? Are you a globalist? Do you believe the world is flat and it's immigration and tariffs? This is sort of a much smaller version of that. But there also is. We always used to say the big sports were able. Football and basketball basically floated the entire athletic department. And the football team made a ton of money. The tennis team got to take a fun trip to Australia for the spring and play the sport that didn't have to charge for tickets and didn't have any media rights. And now it's kind of much more of an eat what you kill world. And it's Going to be really interesting to see if Arkansas. Is this an outlier or as Mike said, is this sort of the beginning

Mike (46:08)

of the avalanche in one of the main issues that I've kind of seen because there's some what about ism, right? Where it's like, okay, well, the sport's paying for this part of the sport and there are certain segments of professional tennis that pay for other segments of professional tennis. So the what about ism happens. That's like the knee jerk, right? Like, how is this different than what might happen on tour? Well, that's an insulated tennis problem. We're dealing with tennis people about a tennis problem and we're allowed to have our opinions drawing a direct line between our own tennis issues and maybe a similar scenario to NIL and NCA where people don't, they're, they're not inherently passionate about it probably at large. You know, you can't, you can't think that every person who's in a boardroom or has this decision coming across cares about tennis as much as we do. Like, that's, that's the, that's the difference between, you know, a problem on tour that might be similar versus a problem in nil.

Producer Mike (47:06)

Well, I mean, I mean, and let's get real about it too. The, the fact that these bigger programs get television deals in our spread and they get Netflix specials and they have their, their branding spread all over the place. I mean, this is a branding play for a lot of schools when they're, when they're funding these programs, right? It's marketing dollars. And they're ultimately trying to get, they're not trying to get more athletes to come to their school. They're trying to get the 40,000 kids that want to spend the money to go sit in the stands on a regular basis to come buy hot dogs and beers and merch and their kids and their kids like this is a sustaining thing. And football and basketball are essentially university marketing opportunities. And so it's, it's a good sunk cost, even if it's a break even cost with women's basketball.

Mike (47:50)

I'm going to leave you guys with a question that I don't know the answer to and maybe I'll try to get smarter on it and then report back next week. But you mentioned, is there a responsibility jw and I know you have to go after this question. I don't expect a full, fully formed answer. Here is a responsibility from the tours to support college tennis being. It's a vehicle to, you know, players breaking out if Your player development here in this country, is there more value in whatever the cost associated with trying to make a player and playing for training is here or is there more opportunity with loading up a team with six people and going and. I don't know, I mean, is it a team full of Americans? Is there responsibility elsewhere with player development? Are there workarounds that haven't been thought of?

JW (48:41)

Right.

Mike (48:41)

We want American players. Well, who does that fall off? If it's part of development and you have prospects, is there a way to use that system to your advantage, especially if money is available and you're allowed to pay people?

JW (48:51)

If only the head of the USTA had a history as a successful college tennis coach, we could jump on that. Craig Tyler, we have a thought exercise for you. I still think, I mean, I gotta bounce it. I still think a cap on the number of foreign players might be advisable and I think it could probably pass legal muster as well. But no, it's a really tricky set of circumstances and again, we've talked about a lot, but the sad irony here is that college tennis is in a really good place qualitatively as a vehicle to the pros, as an appealing landing spot for an 18 year old. But it's really imperiled right now. And I don't see how it get unless, you know, it might force these programs to get really enterprising and entrepreneurial and say, listen, whether it's holding camps or having special events or doing pro ams, the guardrails are all off on amateurism anyway. But maybe this will force college tennis programs to be a little more enterprising because right now I think over Arkansas's revenues was like, it was literally like $3,000 of revenue.

Mike (49:57)

Yes, against a million. And a million for the women. And 1.2.

Producer Mike (50:01)

Yeah, like 2.2 or something like that combined.

Mike (50:04)

All right, JW, get out of here. Thank you. We'll see you next week. Mike, I mean, you know more, you know more about this stuff than I do. But like salary caps for, for non revenue sports?

Producer Mike (50:17)

Yeah.

Mike (50:17)

Like, I mean, is it as simple as. Listen, if you're not making revenue, then we're not going to pay you 150, $250,000. Is there, is our cap in place for non revenue sports based on the two years prior? Like, what are the fixes? Because obviously if you have to choose between, if you're Arkansas and you have to choose between paying a tennis player $200,000 and I'm making numbers up. But whatever it is, if it's 100,000 if it's whatever. Or having that go towards a center who can protect your quarterback, who's going to create revenues in the tens of millions. I hate to tell tennis fans, but I know how that's going to go.

Producer Mike (50:51)

Yeah.

Mike (50:51)

Is there, is there such thing as a salary cap for non revenue sports in IL and nca?

Producer Mike (50:56)

Well, I think ultimately in conversations that I've had, it's not so much that there isn't the desire to pay these players and to pay them fairly and find alternative ways to fund the program. It is that international players can't accept nil the same as an American born player. And so the challenge.

Mike (51:16)

What are those differences by the way?

Producer Mike (51:17)

I. I don't know. Like because it's, it's such gray area, right. Everything's being ruled on currently.

Mike (51:21)

The Wild west, it's like wild west,

Producer Mike (51:23)

like, like when we hire a contractor to do graphics internationally, it's a lot harder to pay them than when we hire somebody here in the United States. And there's people putting programs together to figure out how to do that. Right. And I think ultimately once they fix that, maybe that becomes a better pathway forward. But I think at the end of the day, a lot of it just always boils down to media, boils down to TV dollars. I really think that's the biggest thing. And if only there was a channel where it only played tennis and they

Mike (51:50)

could broadcast it, maybe YouTube streamers should do it.

Producer Mike (51:54)

Maybe, maybe a good idea.

Mike (51:56)

Maybe just let that sit for a second. Here's what, here's what disappoints me about this whole thing, right? The. The fix requires some sobering conversations about where tennis lies in the landscape of the overall NCAA of things. And it comes down to some version of a conversation versus revenue versus non revenue generating sports. And whatever side you want to argue via. Like, however you approach this conversation and if you have a bias because you've participated or it's a big part of your life, those are the facts that are unavoidable for a solution. Right. And also it's just for me it's disheartening because college tennis, in my opinion, outside looking in, I didn't play college tennis. I saw it, I watched it, I was around it nonstop growing up. My brother played four years at Georgia all the time. It's never been a better product. It has simply never been a higher quality of tennis to where as a fan, if you get a chance to go to these matches, go the number one player on a team that's top five in the country. Sure as shit. Like they're going to be in a major in the next 18 months. Maybe it's. Maybe it's Hodar, you know, maybe it's Spaziri who almost beat Sinner after you pay $3 to watch them at some tournament. So while it's here and before the tip of the spear and with so many question marks around, what's going to happen with the nil of things and where tennis fits into it? Simply, if you're a tennis fan, you have a good program, you have any program, go watch these players, support them how and where, even a little bit, the product has. Has never, ever, ever been better.

Producer Mike (53:38)

Yeah, I think. I think that's the result. Right. You're just gonna have to. If you want to support these things and you want them to exist, you have to go support them. Yeah.

Mike (53:46)

I mean, there's every chance you're gonna see Ben Shelton and you're gonna see him in three semis of slams. And Danielle Collins makes the finals of Australia, you know, out of college. Emma Navarro shoots to eight in the world. Spazerio must be Zhang wins. Ethan Quinn's winning all the time. You're going to watch future pros with more of a guarantee than I think has ever existed in the history of college tennis. So I hope there is a path. I don't know what it is. It's difficult when it's relying, like, people like, fix college tennis. I'm like, well, the Supreme Court said stuff. So I don't know what tennis willpower can do, but hopefully it can do something like.

Producer Mike (54:19)

Yeah, hopefully. Well, that's it. That's all we got. I have some poll questions I want to say.

Mike (54:24)

You wrote poll.

Producer Mike (54:29)

After the break, we'll do the poll questions.

Mike (54:30)

Another one. Welcome back to Served, where I don't know what's next, but I do know. We're brought to you by ServiceNow. Take us home producer Mike.

Producer Mike (54:40)

So last week we did a poll where we asked, you know, tennis players must provide their whereabouts for an hour every day. This is obviously about the. The issue of. On socials and in our newsletter, we asked chuckers if it was fair or ridiculous that they must provide a our window every single day.

Mike (54:58)

I. So I have. I have some context on the hour window.

Producer Mike (55:00)

Okay.

Mike (55:01)

Home visits, out of competition. So, like, if we're. I remember the years where, you know, you're getting tested by the Olympics in a given country. Like, I was walking out of the locker room in Paris and someone walked up and said, this Isn't a tennis one. This is an Olympics one. Right. Or this is X, Y and Z. So no, some tests are surprises. The at home visits traditionally have not been surprises. There is an hour window so context Nia. Because people are. Yeah, there's random tell. You don't know. I got lived it, I got it. I understand. But like at home in, you know, when I was in Austin, Texas there at least was some rhyme or reason. So we'll see how it spills out. Maybe I'm missing something, but I, I don't think I'm, I was wrong.

Producer Mike (55:42)

Well, I mean I think ultimately, you know, a lot of people thought, you know it 39% said fair sports rely on integrity but 61% that it is ridiculous and a little too invasive to require an hour window every single day for testing. We had people in the comments say there should be clear indication, you know, I'm on my way. Kind of like doordash or Uber. Do you know yet other people saying that I have nothing against the players. It's the system which treats different players with terrible standards. You know, I think it's just, it's a little bit all over the place. But a lot of people said why can't they do random drug tests at the tournament only.

Mike (56:22)

Yeah.

Producer Mike (56:22)

Which is something I brought up.

Mike (56:24)

Yeah. So listen, the, the problem with testing forever is that I think abusers who can afford it are going to be ahead of testing for a while. Like we would have never found, we would have never had the fallout in baseball of a jilted employee from BALCO wouldn't have sent in a sample of the designer steroid that then popped off everyone. Yeah, right. So if you give abusers and people who are trying to cheat the system time, like if there's, if they can create a 10 week window going into Australia and train, train, train, train, train, train, train. Clear their system by the time they get there, the damage has been done. So we get those random tests at, at slams, you know that the further you go, the more likely you are to be tested. And there is, it used to be at least weighted on ranking also. So like I got more at home tests than a lot of players. You know, should we be spending resources on players ranked 300 and probably not yet, like you know, at, at scale. I don't know. I disagree. I, I had to live it, I had to live through the inconvenience of it. And for me it created at least some sort of, I always say proudly whenever we have controversy, whenever it's, you know, A sinner last year. An ego or it's like one that I have an opinion on that maybe someone else doesn't agree with my opinion on, which is totally fine. It's your prerogative. Right. But I can safely say that we have the most intense testing in all of sports. I love being able to say that like I like it. Is that worth an hour of my day when I was on tour? Yes. Do I think, and I don't know this, do I think that most of players want that peace of mind even if it's a complete and total invasion of privacy? Pain in the ass. You know, we're going to see this issue spill out over time with the von Drozova case because it seems like that's at least the crux of a lot of it or at least the early parts of it before we get to the what and when and how. Yeah, I mean I appreciate the fans saying like let's have some, you know, some empathy or some sympathy but like I kind of respectfully disagree with the majority there. As a former player, I liked knowing that someone else was. If I was getting woken up at 5:20 by a doorbell and you have to provide your codes, if you have a gate to your house and the whole thing and you have to provide that. If I was getting woken up then that meant anyone else, someone else somewhere. And the world was also having the threat of being tested, therefore probably making the sport cleaner.

Producer Mike (58:56)

Yeah, I do think there's a level of technology that, that the infrastructure can probably use and I mean they love data so they can find a way to automatically text somebody the picture of the person testing and what they look like and have it come from an official number. Like that seems like an easy and quick fix.

Mike (59:12)

Yes, I'm sure. Like there's technologies, I mean listen, I'm a fucking dinosaur at this point. 2012 of the last so so that criticism fully accepted. I'm sure there are better ways to do it now for me like the levels. If we're not in a performance enhancing level for anything, you know, sinner. It's like the tribunal spec a sin in the swimming pool. Right. If he's not gaining any benefit, I just don't think that he would risk everything he risked so inconvenience of an hour versus levels. I would rather focus on levels to protect people who aren't abusing the system but who I would like to create some grace for a mistake which in tennis right now we have zero grace for mistake. I that doesn't mean frequency that doesn't mean, like, I'm fine being inconvenienced. If, you know, when I was a player, I was fine being inconvenienced to have the feeling of a cleaner sport.

Producer Mike (60:06)

So we got a new poll question this week coming off the news of Alcaraz. If you guys want to weigh in on it, check it out on YouTube, check it out on Instagram, go find it in the newsletter and we will reveal the results next week. But this one is Does Alcaraz's high intensity and style of play make you nervous about his career longevity? Multichoice? Yes. No. Too early to tell. We'll get your results. We'll get you the results in your opinion next week.

Mike (60:33)

I can't come out right now.

Producer Mike (60:35)

I mean, if you'd like, but you

Mike (60:37)

would rather have me not.

Producer Mike (60:38)

I don't care. You can. Great.

Mike (60:39)

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