Best Backhands Ever, Shelton & Muchová Wins, & More | Served with Andy Roddick

Summary

Served with Andy Roddick

Episode: Best Backhands Ever, Shelton & Muchová Wins, & More
Date: February 17, 2026
Host: Andy Roddick (notably, Roddick is referenced but does not speak extensively in this transcript; much of the actual on-air hosting appears to be by Mike Bryan, James Blake, and Marty Fish, with guests including Chris Eubanks)
Featured Guests: Mike Bryan, James Blake, Marty Fish, Chris Eubanks

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Episode Overview

This episode of Served with Andy Roddick dives deep into several major recent tennis storylines, then segues into an expert, lively debate on the best backhands in the history of men's tennis. The crew—joined by Chris Eubanks—analyzes player performance, career milestones, and technical elements with trademark insight and banter. Before launching into their signature "Best Of" segment, they cover Ben Shelton's breakthrough, Katie Boulter and Alex de Minaur’s recent (and synchronistic) wins, the controversy over player withdrawals in Dubai, and Karolína Muchová’s return to title-winning form. The tone throughout is sharp, irreverent, and full of under-the-hood tennis wisdom, making it compelling even for those not deeply embedded in the sport.

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Tournament Recaps and Storylines

Ben Shelton’s Gritty Run

• [01:11] Mike Bryan highlights Ben Shelton’s recent title, specifically praising his ability to grind through tough, three-set matches:

  “I like winning six in the third and then I like following up the next day, winning five in the third. ... I just like the way he was managing through. I don’t think he had his best stuff all week. And when you’re winning five hundreds without your best stuff, I view that as a lot of progress.”

• Stat of the Day
  • Marty Fish shares via Megan from their newsletter that Shelton is the first American male since Andy Roddick to win more than two career titles above the 250 level ([02:37]).
  • The group jokes about John Isner's track record compared to Shelton's, highlighting that Isner mostly won 250s at Atlanta and Newport ([02:55]).
• Match Grit: Shelton “competed, he’s winning... and it's not as if he had his best stuff where he was winning three and three all week. That was a lunch pail week, which, you know, winning a 500 with a ham sandwich is... a lot of progress.” — Mike Bryan ([04:16]).

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Boulter & De Minaur – Couples That Win Together...

• [04:36] Marty Fish details the sweet, ongoing pattern where Katie Boulter and Alex de Minaur win titles the same week.
  • In 2024, it's happened three times out of Boulter’s four career titles.
  • Boulter jokes on X, saying, “he can’t just let me have a week,” and De Minaur replies, “I love you, babe.” ([05:08])
• The group finds it endearing and, with tongue-in-cheek, angsts over not being invited to their wedding ([05:35]).

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Critique of Dubai Withdrawals – Iga Świątek, Aryna Sabalenka, and Tournament Politics

• [07:30] With both Iga Świątek and Aryna Sabalenka pulling out of Dubai, Mike Bryan launches into a sharp critique of the tournament director’s threat to deduct ranking points:

  “My favorite is... they're independent contractors, but if they choose not to play this week, then we’re gonna deduct them ranking points. Make it make sense to me.”

• Bryan and Fish question the logic of docking points for players prioritizing their wellbeing, skewering the tournament’s motives:

  “You’re mad at them because they might play like an exhibition in November and you’re somehow making that part of their decision in February.” — Mike Bryan ([10:28])

• Coco Gauff also chimed in support, saying ranking points shouldn't be deducted—players already have zero-points counted for skipping mandatory events ([11:09]).

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Muchová Wins at Last

• [11:43] Marty Fish spotlights Karolína Muchová's second career title, her first in seven years—a shock given her eye-testing talent:

  “She may be the best player I’ve ever seen that’s won two titles. ... When I watch her play, I’m like, this is a really, really good player.” — Mike Bryan ([12:02])

• The team gives props to both Muchová and her final opponent, noting the consistency and level of recent women’s tennis ([12:21]).

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Roger Federer: Hall of Fame (Sold Out Instantly)

• [12:50] The group is mock-astonished that Roger Federer’s upcoming Hall of Fame induction sold out in two minutes:

  “The Hall of Fame induction ceremony for Roger Federer sold out in two minutes.” — Marty Fish
  “People like him? Can’t… I can’t believe it.” — Mike Bryan and James Blake ([12:57])

• The hosts discuss the event logistics, still awed by Federer’s drawing power ([13:41]).

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Best Backhands in Tennis History

[14:40] Feature Segment (start): Chris Eubanks joins the in-depth, player-by-player breakdown of the best backhands in tour history. The conversation is split between pre- and post-2012 eras.

Criteria and Structure

• James Blake: Pre-2012 experts
• Chris Eubanks: Post-2012 focus, but with overlap

“I’m glad I didn’t have to whittle this down and actually rank them… there are a lot of really cool and good backhands.” — James Blake ([15:26])

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Pre-2012 Standouts (James Blake’s List)

Jimmy Connors

• Technically flawless, “straight back, straight through—nothing could possibly go wrong with the shot.”
• Anecdote about Connors training with decades-old equipment and still dominating with backhand precision ([16:36]).
• Connors compared to Cam Norrie for mechanics ([17:42]).

Yevgeny Kafelnikov

• “First one I saw” who could consistently attack with the left hand, worked magic off both wings; calls for Hall of Fame induction ([18:23]).
• Underrated as a singles-doubles #1 who could win both at a major ([18:33]).

Marat Safin

• Praised as a powerful, smooth-moving big man with “a backhand that was a joke” ([20:23]).
• Famous for outgunning Federer off the backhand to win the 2005 Australian Open semifinal ([20:27]).

John McEnroe

• Not conventionally powerful, but a master of variety, racket control, and tactical use—“racket control was a joke… leaning left and play it off right short” ([21:04]).

Leighton Hewitt

• The “best at the basics,” exceptionally difficult to attack on the backhand side, expert at neutralizing and returning ([23:33]–[27:42]).
• Early innovator in using the lob as a weapon.
• “Master of ball flight.” — James Blake ([27:14])

Andy Murray

• The “differentiator where he’s on the short list… is full extension” and genius at generating neutral or defensive shots from full stretch ([29:02]–[30:39]).
• “He can float it… three feet from the baseline, but if he knows you’re coming in, he’ll angle one right at the toes.” — Chris Eubanks ([31:03])
• Praised for best two-handed slice from a non-one-hander ([32:21]).

Other Notables

• Edberg: Master one-hander, technically sound, brilliant mover ([41:30]).
• Gustavo Kuerten (Guga): Iconic, spinny clay-court backhand, “could unload line” ([43:07]).
• Tommy Haas, Agassi: Both cited for world-class backhand pace and control ([43:42], [44:20]).

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Post-2012 and Overlap (Chris Eubanks’ Segments)

Novak Djokovic

• “Best of all time at switching directions with margin” ([37:32]–[39:02]).
• Ability to absorb, redirect, and create angles off both wings even against Nadal’s lefty spin.
• Cited as innovator in using the open-stance and slide into backhand on hard courts:

  “Novak was the first one that I saw who could consistently measure their like steps and run into a sliding into the backhand. … Not on a hardcourt, not on all services, not against every opponent. And that was Novak.” — Chris Eubanks ([39:21])

Andy Murray (again)

• Praised for backhand slice variety and ability to defend while changing the point’s direction.

Stan Wawrinka

• Best among one-handers for handling high-bouncing balls (especially against Nadal). Ability to hit “inside-out” backhands from the middle of the court, counterintuitive for a one-hander ([47:28]–[49:28]).
• Could “bully you around the court and just go through you cross [or] line.”

Alexander Zverev

• “Complete backhand”—handles pace, redirect line, balls above the shoulder ([49:28]–[50:31]).
• Ability to control middle of court with weight, plus old-school step-in execution makes him unique.

Daniil Medvedev

• Often overlooked, compared to Hewitt but taller and with a unique “low, flat, not fast but heavy” ball.
• “He breaks rules that you would normally tell kids… he can play far behind the baseline and not hit it that big.” — Chris Eubanks ([53:58])
• “He’s like the master of nuance.” — James Blake ([53:51])

Kei Nishikori

• “His ball control on the backhand side was a joke… could stay in that pocket, redirect, more firepower than Hewitt”—Eubanks ([56:19]).

Honorary Mentions & Other Deep Cuts

• David Nalbandian: “The first thing [anybody] thinks is… backhand” ([35:30]).
• Tomas Berdych: Super-low, powerful take.
• David Ferrer: Not flashy, but “master of ball trajectory.”
• Burnage/Berdych, Silic, others: “If we were to divide it by country, Czechs and Russians would be running away” ([58:24]–[58:51]).

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Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On Ben Shelton's title:

  “Winning a 500 with a ham sandwich is... a lot of progress.” — Mike Bryan ([04:16])

• On Hewitt’s lob:

  “Name one other guy in your life where you knew the lob was coming and you still got beat.” — Chris Eubanks ([25:45])

• On Djokovic’s backhand:

  “The ability to switch directions without adding risk—I think Novak is the all-time master at that and especially off of that side.” — James Blake ([39:02])

• On Federer’s Hall of Fame sell-out:

  “People like him? Can’t… I can’t believe it.” — Mike Bryan ([12:57])

• On the best competitive mindset:

  “He is the best at the basics of the game and knowing what ball flight people can attack and what can’t that I have ever seen.” — James Blake on Hewitt ([27:14])

• Classic pod sign-off humor:

  “Who do you think as a podcast has the worst backhands—us or Nothing Major?” — James Blake ([59:19])

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Shelton’s Win & American Tennis Drought: [01:11]–[04:16]
• Boulter & De Minaur Relationship Recap: [04:36]–[05:35]
• Dubai WTA Withdrawals and Debates: [07:30]–[11:09]
• Muchová’s Second Career Title: [11:43]–[12:21]
• Federer Hall of Fame Sellout: [12:50]–[13:41]
• Best Backhands Introduction: [14:40]
• Pre-2012 Backhand Greats (Blake): [15:26]–[44:22]
• Post-2012 Backhands & Further Debate (Eubanks): [45:26]–[58:00]
• Honorable Mentions, Final Banter: [58:00]–[59:59]

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Episode Takeaways

• The episode is a masterclass in both tennis history and technical appreciation—listeners walk away with a nuanced sense of how great backhands are built and why certain players (past and present) stood out.
• The tone stays fun and improvisational, with players using personal anecdotes to contextualize what could otherwise be arcane technical analysis.
• The recurring topic of “who doesn’t get enough respect” (be it for their stats or their style) helps bridge generational gaps in the audience.
• Regular banter and affectionate ribbing keep the complex analysis light and engaging.

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For listeners who missed this episode, the “Best Backhands” rundown will be a go-to reference for deepening your technical tennis or just sharpening your barstool debates.

Transcript

[James Blake]

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[Mike Bryan]

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And with AI agents working together autonomously, anyone in any department can focus on the work that matters Most. Learn how ServiceNow puts AI to work for [e-mail] Foreign. Welcome to serve. Presented by ServiceNow. Subscribe everyone's on vacation. Mike's yeah.

[Marty Fish]

And then, please, everybody's like, sean's out of town. We got Bubba filling in.

[James Blake]

We got just.

[Mike Bryan]

It's just like the. We got some hardcore peeps in the studio while you're just gallivanting around.

[Marty Fish]

Is Ella in there?

[Mike Bryan]

Yeah, she's in here.

[James Blake]

She's at work.

[Marty Fish]

Good. She's doing her job.

[James Blake]

Yeah.

[Marty Fish]

Thank you.

[James Blake]

Yeah.

[Mike Bryan]

Yeah.

[Marty Fish]

We're all supposed to be freeloaders.

[Mike Bryan]

Unbelievable. Hope you're having a great vacation.

[Marty Fish]

I am, thank you.

[James Blake]

Yep.

[Mike Bryan]

I do hope you're having a great vacation.

[Marty Fish]

Appreciate that.

[James Blake]

You deserve it.

[Mike Bryan]

Shelton wins, gets through a bunch of.

[James Blake]

Four setters or, sorry, three setters. Four setters would be tough in a.

[Mike Bryan]

Two out of three set format. Serendulo wins in Buenos Aires. Demon on the heels of Bolter winning. Demon wins in Rotterdam.

[Marty Fish]

Valentine's Day gift.

[Mike Bryan]

Mukova defeats Mboco. Demon takes out faa and that's about that. Sean. Sean. Mike, I'm doing great. Everything's fine. Everything's fine. I'll tell you, Sean, Ben Shelton kind of like grinded through.

[James Blake]

Like four, three.

[Mike Bryan]

Setters in a row, winning kind of those gross, tough matches.

[James Blake]

I like that a lot.

[Marty Fish]

What do you like about that?

[Mike Bryan]

I like winning six in the third and then I like following up the next day, winning five in the third. I don't think his fitness is in question. He actually won a bunch more second serve return points against Fritz than Fritz won. Fritz won more points in that match. Won 51% of the points. That's tennis. You win 51%, go home in second. I just like the way he was managing through. I don't think he had his best stuff all week. And when you're winning five hundreds without your best stuff, I view that as.

[James Blake]

A lot of progress.

[Mike Bryan]

I like the way he went about that.

[Marty Fish]

Can I tell you a little stat on that one before you move on?

[Mike Bryan]

Yeah.

[Marty Fish]

This is kind of crazy. Megan from our newsletter sent this over and it was basically that Shelton is The first American man to win more than two career titles above the 250 level since one Mr. Andy Roddick.

[Mike Bryan]

Wait, so isn't there never. Isner won Miami? He didn't win in anything above a 250.

[Marty Fish]

No. He won a bunch of Atlantas and Newports.

[Mike Bryan]

Bought a lot of Atlantas and Newports.

[Marty Fish]

A lot of Atlantas and Newports. We were in, our group chat, hasn't done this yet. Apparently more than two.

[Mike Bryan]

We had our group chat with Isner, Marty and James, and he called. He named his Atlanta Newport the Something double, you know, like the Sunshine double. But like, he, he gave it its own name, which I thought was pretty funny.

[James Blake]

That's a big stat.

[Marty Fish]

So. So. And it would have been Fritz, right? Fritz would have won that. It would have been Fritz in this.

[Mike Bryan]

More than, more than two. So Fritz has won a thousand and a 500. Ben's won 1500. Now another 500. So that's, that's an interesting stat. I didn't. I don't know that I saw that stat coming.

[Marty Fish]

Yeah, I mean, I think it's. It's part of it is, you know, the. There's a lot of 250s in the American calendar, you know, but. Yeah, I just. He's 40 now in ATP Finals. You know, I just think. I think it's. I think it's cool. I think it's. It's cool to hear that. You think Ben grinded that out, showed some promise, you know, And. And now he's stacking some stats like this.

[Mike Bryan]

4 and 4 Diallo, 3 sets. Mano, 3 sets. Kasmanovich, 3 sets. Chapo from a set down, 3 sets. Fritz from, like, he's competing, he's winning. And it's not as if he had his best stuff where he was winning three and three all week. Right? That was, that was a. That was a lunch pail week, which, you know, winning a 500 with a. With a ham sandwich is.

[James Blake]

Is.

[Mike Bryan]

Is a lot of progress. Like, honestly, like, that's, That's a. That's a really kind of big standout week. Bolter Demon. That wedding fund has gotten a nice little injection of cash. They might be looking. They just upgraded from like a DJ to Usher.

[James Blake]

Yeah, right.

[Marty Fish]

To be able to call in the celebrity guest appearance.

[James Blake]

Yeah.

[Marty Fish]

Oh, man, the. Somebody else posted something about them. This is the third time they've won the same week, and Katie only has four wins. So somebody posted that in 2024. March 2nd. Demon won Acapulco. March 3rd. The next day, Katie won three. San Diego, June 16th. They both won. Demon won. Was it Ros Mullen and Bolter won Nottingham. And then this past week, February 7th, Katie won Ostrava. Am I saying that right?

[Mike Bryan]

Ostrava.

[Marty Fish]

Yeah. And, and then this weekend, Demon won Rotterdam. And then in that comment section on Twitter where somebody posted this, we'll put it up. Katie Bolter said, he can't just let me have a week. And Demon just wrote, I love you, babe.

[Mike Bryan]

Yeah, I mean, this is, it's pretty funny.

[James Blake]

I mean, Boulder. What?

[Mike Bryan]

She won four times. Three of them have the old, the old Demon. The old Demon overlap. That's, that's cool for them. We talk about the wedding every week. Do we know when it is? Do we. I should know.

[James Blake]

Or is it just going to be one of these?

[Mike Bryan]

I don't, I mean, I wonder if.

[Marty Fish]

We should get an invite.

[Mike Bryan]

I don't even know either one of them. Why would we get an invite? I, I, I think they're both super cool. I'm happy, happy that they're winning. Serendo taking the title down on Buenos Aires. Everyone kind of liked the forehands thing last week with Eubanks. And the good news is we have a backhands thing.

[Marty Fish]

Oh, yeah.

[Mike Bryan]

Best backhands coming up. Lot of commentary on, you know what, everyone, I think mistakes, and I think I said this in the episode. A big forehand for, like, like the best forehand of all time.

[James Blake]

You have to be able to return. You have to be able to hit.

[Mike Bryan]

It on the run.

[James Blake]

You have to be able to hit.

[Mike Bryan]

It in all the spots. Like, we're very picky and, and it feels like people just default to, like, you can tell. People just look up huge forehands on YouTube and just watch Fernando Gonzalez munch forehands for, like, four minutes. But it was fun. I thought, I thought the nuance was good.

[James Blake]

I liked the feedback.

[Mike Bryan]

The one, you know, the one I missed on our forehands episode. Mike Total.

[James Blake]

Well, like, you want the shots that.

[Mike Bryan]

Completely change the game. Borg and his ability to hit topspin and win with topspin. I messed that up. I missed.

[Marty Fish]

Really?

[Mike Bryan]

Yeah, yeah, he should, he should have been on the list. Just what he did.

[James Blake]

It's not the biggest ever.

[Mike Bryan]

It's not. But he was the first one to really kind of create a different type of shape consistently and effectively. That was, that was, that was a miss for me. That's the one point.

[Marty Fish]

So we got to get Eubanks back in studio and we'll redo the whole episode.

[James Blake]

I don't Think so.

[Mike Bryan]

I think this. I think it's just me admitting what I'm wrong is what we have to.

[James Blake]

Do, which I did with Borg.

[Mike Bryan]

He should have absolutely been in the conversation. The other kind of points of feedback that you read in the comments, I didn't. I felt pretty good. I felt pretty on it. Like I was on solid footing. Besides that, a big forehand doesn't mean the best forehand. A big forehand from a certain side of the court, when it goes, you know, when you go big is not the same as being able to defend on that side and. Or return off that side.

[James Blake]

That.

[Mike Bryan]

That matters. That all goes into the equation, at least from. From the way I see it. Wiatek and Sabalenka pull out of Dubai and the tournament director wasn't happy.

[James Blake]

Right.

[Mike Bryan]

I can't believe they don't play every week.

[Marty Fish]

And essentially, I think IGA cited, you know, mental preparedness for the tournament, you know, and Sabalinka cited some minor injuries. And I think ultimately, you know, they'll get potentially fined, you know, cash, 100 grand each. But he wants to see maybe ranking points deducted.

[Mike Bryan]

You're going to deduct ranking points?

[Marty Fish]

That was one of the things that was circling in the comments.

[Mike Bryan]

My favorite is. Yeah, yeah, whenever it's convenient. Oh, no, they're independent contractors. We couldn't possibly do salaries or anything like that. And then when it's. So they are independent contractors, but if they choose not to play this week, then we're going to deduct them ranking points. Make it make sense to me. Like, it's unfortunate, but, like, we play a full schedule. You're the one who pushes for the designation of a 1,000 in that region in February.

[James Blake]

Terrible slot.

[Mike Bryan]

Like, people are going to pull out. Like, I mean, especially people who are playing for Slams and number one. And, like, it's just going to happen. Pushing for docking. So he wants to dock points that they've already won somewhere else so they've earned those points. You imagine like someone winning a playoff game and then someone, you know, taking it away somehow. Like, so he's going to dock points from six months ago.

[James Blake]

How does that even work?

[Marty Fish]

How does that work?

[Mike Bryan]

Yeah, how do you dock someone so they've earned every point that they have on their point total right now, Every point that they have is earned because they've won matches. And now we're going to do dock points. I don't think that's very well thought out. That doesn't make sense to me. You're going to Dock them money. So you're going to take money because they can't play your tournament for one reason or another.

[James Blake]

That's already weird.

[Mike Bryan]

And then you're going to say, we're going to take your points away that you've earned. That doesn't make any sense.

[Marty Fish]

Yeah, so the tournament director had this quote. He said, I feel they should deduct points from the players. Monetary fine won't help. Many years ago, Serena Williams with Drew and was fined $100,000. But what is a hundred thousand dollars? She would play someplace else and make a million. So the problem is he's framing it as saying they're pulling out and then playing somewhere else for more money.

[James Blake]

If he gives.

[Mike Bryan]

If they. If either one of them plays somewhere else this week, I'll give him a dollar. He's saying, but that's so stupid. Like, it works in different parts of the year. Like you saying, they'll play somewhere else where they can make more money. Sorry, why did you. Why did you push for the Masters 1000? So that you could.

[James Blake]

What?

[Mike Bryan]

So that you could do what? You could make more money.

[Marty Fish]

Make more money.

[Mike Bryan]

Okay, so you're mad at them because they might play like an exhibition in November and you're somehow making that part of their decision in February. So Serena Williams should be docked points because Serena Williams has created enough value where she can make more money elsewhere. How does that make sense?

[Marty Fish]

Yeah, I mean, even Coco Golf weighed in on it, you know, basically being like, hey, listen, like, do I think that they should be docked points? No, not really. We already have mandatory. We get zero in our rankings for everything, you know, for this point of the schedule. It's just hard. It's hard to play all the tournaments now.

[Mike Bryan]

That's so stupid that the two weeks, the fine, whatever, Like, I still don't even know how those work. How you can just find someone an independent contract for. Not like they did TV deals. And then because of those TV deals, they made stuff mandatory like there was no other guarantees.

[James Blake]

Right.

[Mike Bryan]

It's just we. We make it, man.

[James Blake]

Okay, whatever.

[Mike Bryan]

That's. That's another. That's another issue. But then saying we're going to take away points because people have more value outside of my tournament, that doesn't do much to make an argument against upping the prize money somewhere, like at these tournaments, does it?

[James Blake]

No. Okay.

[Marty Fish]

Anyways, can we give a shout out to Mujova?

[James Blake]

Oh, much of a. Beats. Um Boko.

[Mike Bryan]

Um Boko beats Rybakina again. Beat her last year.

[James Blake]

Muhova.

[Mike Bryan]

You Told me that that's the second title that she's won.

[Marty Fish]

It's her second career title, which, like, blows my mind. I'm like, second career title and first in like seven years.

[Mike Bryan]

The eye test. And I know she's been hurt, so we needed to say that, like, she's missed significant amounts of time. And also she may be the best player I've ever seen that's won two titles. But everyone knows I can't quit her. I choose her in every draw. I just, when I watch her play, I'm like, this is a really, really good player.

[James Blake]

But props to her.

[Mike Bryan]

Props to Imboko. Making a lot of finals, winning. Like, she's playing every week now. Like, there's a level of consistency there. That's, that's, that's impressive. So props to them. Seven years between titles and those only months.

[James Blake]

She's so good.

[Mike Bryan]

I don't get it.

[Marty Fish]

So good.

[Mike Bryan]

I know.

[Marty Fish]

But before we wrap and toss the break, can I give you one, one other thing that happened this weekend that will, it's going to shock you. You're going to be so shocked.

[James Blake]

Okay.

[Marty Fish]

That the hall of Fame induction ceremony for Roger Federer sold out in two minutes.

[James Blake]

Crazy.

[Marty Fish]

Couldn't believe it. Weird.

[Mike Bryan]

People like him can't.

[James Blake]

I can't believe it. Can't even imagine.

[Mike Bryan]

And didn't they, didn't I read it? It was even more like, I mean, the venue's smaller and intimate and then they sold out. Like an outside viewing party screen.

[Marty Fish]

They sold out a watch party. Yeah, I think you called it last year. You were trying to figure out. Because I do love that last year I was so fortunate to be there to watch the induction ceremony and see it inside the horseshoe on the classic grounds in Newport. And I think it's such a beautiful, iconic setting. And I think you called it. You're like, gosh, they're going to have to put, like, Rogers in the stadium or do a watch party and then have him come say hi to people.

[James Blake]

The horseshoe's so much better, though.

[Marty Fish]

I, I, hopefully that's what they do. They said they sold 3,500 main tickets and then thousands of watch party tickets.

[James Blake]

Crazy.

[Mike Bryan]

I mean, it's going to just consume that town. But good for the hall of Fame. Well deserved. They, they have, they do a great job year round. Hopefully no wild cards this year. But, sorry, I mean, but big, big, big deal for, for, for Roger. Well deserved. This is the point, right? Like, you want the ultimate celebration to happen. It'll be, it'll be fantastic. I can't wait. We'll see if. We'll see if we get the invite. Mike Hayden.

[Marty Fish]

I. I hope so.

[James Blake]

Yeah.

[Marty Fish]

No, because now I can't buy tickets.

[James Blake]

That's true. You're screwed.

[Marty Fish]

Sat online.

[Mike Bryan]

Well, I'll tell you, I'll, I'll shoot.

[Marty Fish]

You're fine.

[Mike Bryan]

I'll shoot an iPhone video for you.

[Marty Fish]

Yeah. Thank you.

[James Blake]

Sneak me in.

[Mike Bryan]

On the other side of the break, Eubanks and I argue agree. I don't know. Best back ends of all time after the break. Thanks for watching.

[Marty Fish]

Served.

[James Blake]

All right. Welcome back to served. As promised in the house for the best backends show. I have a two hander. This guy is a one hander. Chris Eubanks in studio again. And by again, I mean you were two minutes ago.

[Chris Eubanks]

Yeah, I was like the magic of tv.

[James Blake]

Happy to have you here. This is our best backhands list. I have too many names on this. I'm really struggling. And my criteria for those of you who did not listen to the best forehands list, the criteria is generally I'm going like up to 2012 and Banks has taken over post 2012. Obviously there will be some crossover. I would assume we both have Novak Djokovic on our list. I would assume we have some crossover.

[Mike Bryan]

I have.

[James Blake]

So I'm glad I didn't have to whittle this down and actually rank them because I think there's a lot of really cool and good backhands straight out of the gate. Jimmy Connors.

[Chris Eubanks]

Okay.

[James Blake]

Can go both ways. Had that drive returned. Great. You couldn't go through it. The technique, I remember him. It was 2006 and we started working together in 06. In 06.

[Chris Eubanks]

Okay.

[James Blake]

Yeah. We worked together for two years and I was struggling. Had gotten like, dropped out of the top 10 for like the only month for like nine years and lost third round at Wimbledon to this young kid. I can't believe I lost this guy. I had made the final the previous two years. His name was Murray, that hacker. Anyway, so he comes in, he's like, oh. I was like, we're doing two on ones. Bobby Reynolds was in town. And so I was like, all right, well, do we need to get a body or. He's like, oh, I can handle. I mean, Jimmy's old at this point. Like, he's like, oh, I can handle the corner.

[Chris Eubanks]

What racket did he have? The prince I used to see him hitting when he was older.

[James Blake]

No, no. What is that thing? No, it's a mono. It was a graphite racket. It was like Straight up, no throat, and had a. He still has it.

[Chris Eubanks]

Wow.

[James Blake]

So he brings this thing out, this relic. He brings out the shoes from his 91 US Open run. He has me jump rope. He brings a jump rope from his garage. I do two clicks, and then the third one's a cloud of dust. It had been in his garage for 16 years. Yeah, he brings all the stuff. Like, he literally hadn't had any new equipment since 1992. This is 2006. So he shows up all this. I'm like, man, what have I. What is. What is happening? I can rip city at that point. Like, I, you know, I made the US Open final a month later or two months later. His technique is so perfectly simple. Didn't matter how hard you hit it. Just straight back, straight through, straight back, straight through, fine. If he didn't have to move, couldn't overpower him. Even at that age, like technology. His racket was strong at 40 with gut, like, just. There was nothing that could possibly go wrong with the shot.

[Chris Eubanks]

It was pretty straight on, straight arm.

[James Blake]

Just straight back, straight. You would never see it again. You will never see it again. Because of Luxalan, people don't hit the ball, like, side spin flat. I mean, maybe med.

[Chris Eubanks]

But I was gonna say Nori, maybe.

[James Blake]

Oh, that's good call, Nori.

[Chris Eubanks]

That's a great call. Similar, like, kind of mechanics. That's straight arm.

[James Blake]

That's the only best answer. Okay, yeah, okay, that's the best answer. But, like, there's just nothing that could possibly go wrong. Like, he's not gonna. You know, at that point, it's. You're growing up with wood rackets. So we talked about on the forehand show, like, you're not gonna be with wood rackets. You're not gonna be someone who has, like, a Rafa Type 2 in a backhand where you're just, like, ripping with rpms. But, like, there is absolutely as technically sound as you could possibly have a back in, considering the technology. So Jimmy Connor is my first one. Someone that you mentioned right before we came on air. Kafelnikov. Yevgeny Kefelnikov, by the way. Can we just make a decision? He's won two majors. He won an Olympic gold. Can we just put him in the hall of Fame?

[Chris Eubanks]

Geez, he's not in the hall of Fame, regardless.

[James Blake]

Well, go Google whatever and make your own opinions.

[Marty Fish]

But.

[James Blake]

But can we either say it out loud or just put him in the hall of Fame?

[Chris Eubanks]

If you don't put him in the.

[James Blake]

Hall of Fame, he Was number one. Singles and doubles. I think he's the last guy to win both in the same tournament. From the French Open in 96.

[Chris Eubanks]

Safe to say that won't happen again.

[James Blake]

Won't happen again. But his back, he was the first one I saw outside. Andre is like, he was around. So, like, take Andre out of it. He's going to be either one or two on all time list. I think you know him. Novak is are. I think are the two answers. But he was kind of that first one of like, you see guys now like Zver can go both ways with it pretty much off of any ball. But if he needs to, Kafelnikov was the first one to take that. That left hand. And he could just crack one off midpoint cross or. Or play it and drove it. And also on the returns, he was one of those first middle returners like Murray and playing. And he could just drill. He needed no. No time. And could drill it on your feet like a burnage type also, like where it's just on you and you're playing up to him. The forehand was a little weird. It was a little crooked. But he was someone whose backhand was. Could hit a hit a chip, volleyed well, like, wasn't one of those two handers that couldn't take a hand off the racket. He should be in that conversation. And then someone who was like a clone of his backhand was. Saffin.

[Chris Eubanks]

There we go. That's one of mine. Okay.

[James Blake]

Safin was a joke. Saffin. It looked like. So Safin's forehand, I think overrated. Like, really. It could get away from him.

[Chris Eubanks]

Okay.

[James Blake]

I think he would tell you that, like later on in his career you would. You would look for errors off that side on big points.

[Chris Eubanks]

Okay.

[James Blake]

But his backhand knew, like. And he was. It's funny, we talked about the last time you were on someone being one of the really big guys who could move well.

[Chris Eubanks]

Yeah.

[James Blake]

And we gave credit to. Maybe it was Zverev or whoever it was.

[Chris Eubanks]

Safin was first.

[James Blake]

Safin was that guy.

[Chris Eubanks]

Six four, six five, just like strong. Oh, he's six five.

[James Blake]

But he didn't look weird when he ran.

[Chris Eubanks]

Yeah, it was smooth.

[James Blake]

No, he looked kind of smooth, athletic and fast. Yeah, his backhand was a joke.

[Mike Bryan]

Like, he was.

[James Blake]

He was the one. Like, could I. He would just stripe winners. He beat Roger in the semis when Roger was like in God mode.05 in Australia. It was just literally leaning into backhands and just picking off winners against Roger. Yeah, like, to clean Winner against Roger is a weird thing to see. Like you might have Rafa gain on him or like, you know, one shot, two shot, then hit a winner. Yeah, Saffin was just cold cocking winners off that side. He was nasty. The next one is an older generation one which isn't going to fit the typical mold of, of a backhand. But I need time to explain this one. Okay, Johnny Mack.

[Chris Eubanks]

Okay. Help me, help me.

[James Blake]

I will. I played this, this guy when he was mid-50s in the tragedy tour events where I could still serve, where tennis goes to die. He can any ball he can take early, shove it to a corner. Like the racket control that he has. And you play some of the guys, like, they can't find the racket face. They'd never see. Like at this point, I'm not saying I have like a dynamo, whatever, it's not about me. I could hit nasty breaking kicks to this guy and he would still control the racket face. He could be leaning left and play it off right short. His racket control was a joke and he could actually like, like weirdly take it early and flatten it out. Like his variety and his ability of knowing his limitations in the shot and then using it perfectly is unlike anything I've seen.

[Chris Eubanks]

Okay, so it's more about the ball that's coming to him. No, he may not be able to pure it as clean as an oddball.

[James Blake]

I'm not talking about a ball machine.

[Chris Eubanks]

But he can. Whatever you give him, he has a tool for it. I'm telling you, there's some type of tool that he can. Oh, I'm this way. Let me drop it here and place it here.

[James Blake]

I'm telling you, if he's on a driving range with his backhand, you don't stop and look at it twice. And then all of a sudden you look up and he shot 65, okay? Like he can use it up and away. He plays high floating ones and comes in. He literally takes whatever you give him and makes the best decision and has enough control to racket face to make it effective.

[Chris Eubanks]

This is when he was in his 50s.

[James Blake]

This is when he was in his 50s. I can only imagine, given the tools of training now and if he actually wanted to use them and technology and like his, his strokes would not work for Luxalon. They just no chance. And if you gave him that at a certain age, he would have figured out.

[Chris Eubanks]

He would have figured it out. That's true, that's true. With that much talent, you figure something out.

[Marty Fish]

Would he have been a Two handed backhand in modern time.

[James Blake]

I don't know. I don't know. All I know is that you couldn't confuse him on that side at 55 years old, when I could still serve 139.

[Mike Bryan]

Right.

[James Blake]

Like you couldn't. He always knew where the racket face was, his awareness, his shot where like, okay, you're bleeding here. I'm going to shove it hard. Like I can flatten it out and get it like. He was playing a two shot combo off of every backhand.

[Chris Eubanks]

Okay.

[James Blake]

As well as I've ever seen.

[Chris Eubanks]

Okay.

[James Blake]

This next one. And I'm going to. This is going to be a recurring theme with mine and I'm curious to see where your list is. Leighton Hewitt.

[Chris Eubanks]

Okay, he's on there. He's on there.

[James Blake]

No. 1. It's like best shot, best back ends of all time. Because it wasn't one that just created winners. It wasn't flashy. It's not like a saffin.

[Chris Eubanks]

Yeah.

[James Blake]

He never missed a cross court backhand. He could return off of that side. You couldn't get through it. His ball flight is a superpower. You would have to attack him from below your waist all the time and you could not attack him on the back inside.

[Chris Eubanks]

Was he kind of like the first, like Medvedev style?

[James Blake]

It's so weird because I'm glad you said that and I hope he's on your list too, because I have one on that. But he would play like, again, bird's eye view does not tell a story of Leighton Hewitt. Yeah, his forehand had a little bit of elevation. Like when he attacked you, he would flatten it out like it wasn't fast, but it was like it kind of grinded through the court.

[Chris Eubanks]

Yeah, it was like yucky. You don't want to hit it. It was just a junky type of side spin.

[James Blake]

Layton would literally stay cross and low until you proved you. You had to break it like you weren't going to beat him. Cross. You had to hit a chip. You had to hit a chip line. You had to reverse it somehow. But his ball flight on just his stock backhand was the most annoying thing I've ever seen in my entire career. Because it wasn't a skill where it was like a roger where you're like over odd. Like you're not like, oh, like this guy's just way, way, way better than me.

[Marty Fish]

Yeah.

[James Blake]

He is the best at the basics of the game and knowing what ball flight people can can attack and what can't that I have ever seen. I Assume that's what Connors was like, too. I didn't play against him. But you cannot, like, up high. You're playing like a low. It's like a low shooter. Maybe it lands two feet past a service line and you can't do anything with it.

[Chris Eubanks]

Yeah.

[James Blake]

You can't go anywhere. And he almost doesn't give you the cross court angle. Like, he almost plays it like middle. Middle enough to where you're still having to hit a backhand. And you can't run around it because it's so low.

[Chris Eubanks]

Yeah.

[James Blake]

So if you run around it, you're just flipping it. Yeah, his back end. And then all of a sudden he'd be. He was another guy who would beat you line with a backhand where you're just sitting and it would. It would go at 62 miles an hour and you were nowhere near it. Like, his. His backhand return. Like, Hewitt has to be on the list.

[Chris Eubanks]

Like, one other thing about his backhand too. We talked about Carlos on the forehands with the dropper. I felt like Leighton just in my mind, is one of the first guys you saw weaponize the lob.

[James Blake]

Because.

[Chris Eubanks]

Because he was playing a lot of guys who love to come in.

[James Blake]

There's not. Okay, name one other guy in your life where you knew the lob was coming and you still got beat.

[Mike Bryan]

Couldn't do anything about it all the.

[James Blake]

Time because he would like, have that shoulder low, and then the last second.

[Chris Eubanks]

He would lift, throw it up.

[James Blake]

Oh, my God. And it was just his teardrop.

[Chris Eubanks]

And it's like landing like not even on the baseline. It's like three, four feet. Like, like almost a no man's land. But at that time, too, he's playing a lot of players who come in the net. They're crashing, they're closing.

[James Blake]

Oh, my God.

[Chris Eubanks]

The moment that thing went up, it's just.

[James Blake]

But also, like, he kind of took an old school skill where it's like that flat ball flight and he would pass with it where you were like grinding one off the top of the net. He was so controlled where he would hit passing that would clear the net by an inch or two. Then all of a sudden you're like.

[Chris Eubanks]

The volleying is a little weird. Is he coming over? Is he coming?

[James Blake]

And by the way, he's maybe top five list of best movers I've ever seen on court. And when he was like 19, 20 years old, that guy could fly. Like, think about this. Never, ever once in his life had the best shot on the court. Right. The biggest Shot on the court.

[Chris Eubanks]

Yeah.

[Marty Fish]

Yeah.

[James Blake]

Couldn't, you know, he's not going to go through. You got finished no more. The world twice. Like, couldn't. Like, couldn't really go after a forehand. He did, but, like, it wasn't something that would. Like, he would roll it. He does not get enough credit for tennis iq. Mastering the basics. Like, if you have someone and you want to show them how to actually.

[Chris Eubanks]

Play tennis, squeeze everything you can get out of it.

[James Blake]

Forget about it. Like, his serve, he figured out, like, the kick was fine. He figured out this gross second serve.

[Chris Eubanks]

That was like a cut.

[James Blake]

It was like 90, and it would hit the back, you know, 2ft of the box. You couldn't really take a cut at it. Like, it would just slide. Oh, he was so good at knowing what. He was a master of ball flight. Absolute master. Like, you never see him on a list because it's not flashy. Yeah, he's so. He. Layton Hewitt is such a good tennis. He was such a good tennis player. Unbelievable. Like, I can't even handle it. Maybe the best competitor I ever played to.

[Chris Eubanks]

Yeah, I can see that.

[James Blake]

And I'm not saying that. I'm not saying, like, that's nothing. Doesn't mean Rafa is not in that league.

[Chris Eubanks]

It doesn't mean different. When you're late in size, you're going. Everyone you're going up against is bigger. They're bigger, more powerful, and you're still finding ways to just compete. Like you say, maximize everything that you have.

[James Blake]

Rafa is a great competitor. He also has four knockout punches.

[Chris Eubanks]

Weaponry.

[James Blake]

Yeah, Correct. Connors, maybe not like Mac and that are. Connors and Leighton, I think are like. Like, I don't know. They're kindred spirits in some ways. We talked about Rafa, like, yep. It's going to be the thing that we talked about with the forehand episode. Whereas forehand so good that, like, you're not going to mention his. One thing. We talked about how good his backing is. His chip is so good. It is his ability later in his career, especially on grass. And underrated grass corps player when he was healthy and playing well.

[Mike Bryan]

He was.

[James Blake]

He chopped me at Queens one time. Like, I was like, oh, grass. I'm going to get him. Like, his ability to lay that chip line to where your options were, trying to fit it to his back end in a very near narrow window. He was so good at using that chip to direct traffic to his forehand and then get what he wants out of it. Like, his backhand is. Is phenomenal. One of the best backends of all time is Andy Murray.

[Chris Eubanks]

Yeah, Murray's a mine.

[James Blake]

Probably curious if you have another option. Best slice of all time. That wasn't for one hander.

[Chris Eubanks]

Yeah, yeah. Because I felt like Andy had variety on his slice, too. He could throw that, like, inside out, spin junk that was just. It would land short, too. Kind of like Rafa would use, like. But he. It felt like his was so wristy that he had more on it.

[James Blake]

I remember he beat me in Bear C one time, and I feel like I was in every rally. Like, he. I didn't feel like he. He wasn't. He wasn't hitting the ball big. I'm like. I feel like I was kind of. I lost two and two. Really? And it was like.

[Chris Eubanks]

It was like.

[James Blake]

It was like. It was like water torture.

[Chris Eubanks]

But you were in there, though. Every point.

[James Blake]

I didn't get blown off the court. I lost two and two. I'm like, he's just a genius tennis IQ through the roof. Back in return. Unbelievable. But two ways he can stick it all on Novak, right? He can stick it. He can come in, he can play back his full extension. One hand off the racket, playing defense and returning where, like, you've beat him to the back end spot. Like, he's. He's leaning wide on the do side, and you hit a bomb tee. His ability to control his racket face full extension and play this floater that lands three feet inside the baseline where you're completely starting over. Yep, yep, yep. Like, game changing on the full run. Like, you beat him inside out four, and he's cooked. He knows you're coming in. He plays a high chip line to where, like, you're coming and having to, like, chop one across from the service line. And where if you don't stick it.

[Chris Eubanks]

And he's run, having a full running forehand, the whole court's over.

[James Blake]

Like, on tv, it looks wide open. And in reality, you have to stick something across your body from behind the service line as the balls hit. His racket control with full extension is another reason why his back end is one of the best of all time. His stock backhand is one of the best of all time. The differentiator where he's on the short list for me is full extension. Like, I have no business being in this point, much less getting neutral. His ability to do that is otherworldly.

[Chris Eubanks]

And so you talked about how he could also, he could float it, you know, three feet from the baseline, but he also, if he's playing an opponent who he knows is likely to try to come in on it. It's like he has that kind of sense that, oh, this is coming in now. Instead of floating it high, let me angle one right at the toes. So it's like if you burn him and he gives you that high volley and you stick one, it's like, okay, so maybe they're. It's like he's taking notes the whole time. You try it again. 15, 30, big point. He's in that same position, plays it barely over the net. Now you're coming in with a low volley. You got to play up. The whole court's open. Murray's got a full running forehand and you're kind of stuck. You're in this kind of in between zone. So he had the ability to change and kind of play chess based on what the opponent was likely to do.

[James Blake]

It's like he was fine being on defense. What he was going to do was force you to play offense to his strongest defensive positions. I was actually talking with Francis about this. We hit and I was like, listen, defense is two things. It's like when you're on defense, it's playing one shot to make sure that they have to attack you to your defensive strength on the next one. Right. Murray was the best I've ever seen and it didn't work. Like, you're on defense, you're scrambling, but he made you hit the toughest shot to the spots where he wanted to play defense from. Yeah, that is racket control.

[Chris Eubanks]

Yeah.

[James Blake]

That is like being able to change the trajectory last minute, play it soft, play it high. And oh, by the way, when he stuck it back and he could just rip it like flat through the court.

[Marty Fish]

Can you guys expand on that though? Because you had said he is the best slice all time for that. Wasn't a one hander. Can you kind of explain the difference between being a two hander and a one hander and how.

[James Blake]

So it's, it's, it's pretty simple, right? Like if you have one hand on the racket, you're used to, only to having one hand on the racket when you have like, I have a two hander, but I, I have a, I had a really good slice. I think it was part of my game that was actually like, you'll never hear me say something was underrated. That was underrated. Like my chip was underrated. But I started off with a one handed backhand when I was young, got it right so like I could hit a slice. Slice, to me is way more Natural than. Than hitting through it with. With two hands. I switched to two hands because you had to be able to return.

[Chris Eubanks]

Right.

[James Blake]

And that's.

[Chris Eubanks]

Wish somebody had given me that memo.

[James Blake]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Chris Eubanks]

Would have been nice to know hear that when I was 15 going, I.

[Marty Fish]

Want to be like, fed.

[Chris Eubanks]

I want to be Wayne bagging.

[James Blake]

We all.

[Chris Eubanks]

I didn't recognize my limitations at that point. I was like, I'm gonna be like, just like Roger.

[James Blake]

Everyone wants to be like, yeah. It's deceiving, but very. So two hands, you just. You're just not native to having one hand off the racket. So like you. The best chips of all time. You see like Mack and Edberg and Roger and like all these guys, normally native one handers, it's rare to see someone with the fluency with one hand off the racket. Like, Murray Layton was great at it too. He had a great, like, very underrated chip. But less likely to see with two hands over time.

[Chris Eubanks]

Yeah, 100%. Because as a one hander, you're more prone to going to. You defend with the slice. Like when you have a one hand backing the option of getting out there and kind of trying to go off the left leg and kind of hitting through it. It's becoming more of a thing now. But when you're 15, 16, and you're in the deuce side, you hit a forehand return and the whole court's open. When I see the ball go, I'm immediately going, slice. Like, I have to. I need to buy myself time. I need to get over there. So you just have years and years of repping the one hand backhand slice to the point where, you know, I probably can hit a slice in my sleep now because I've been doing. I've been forced to do it from the age of 15 on. When I return and you return with it. Yeah.

[James Blake]

Which like, I. I had a good slice, but I could never return with it because my grips had to be a certain way.

[Chris Eubanks]

Yeah.

[James Blake]

On. On returns. So you just basically get to know the racket face and kind of your left hand not being next to your right hand. Another one. I will. We'll go through this quickly, but someone who could just break winners off without looking like he was swinging too hard. Like, that's another skill. Like, if I was going to go after a back end, it looked like I was going after a back end. Like, right. Like you can tell.

[Chris Eubanks]

It's like, oh, he's like something about it. Like there's a little bit more of a turn.

[James Blake]

There's like a load. But you like awkwardly swing through because you're not. Their technique isn't good enough just to time it Someone who could do that like just cold cock winners. And he had a like sneaky good record against like Roger and Rafa was nice.

[Chris Eubanks]

Oh yes, thank you. I was wondering when that name was going to come up.

[James Blake]

Yeah, he was, he was nasty.

[Chris Eubanks]

Yeah.

[James Blake]

Now he was streakier. Like I played him, you know, in the finals of Canada one time and I don't think he made two balls all day. But then you play him like I almost lost him at the Open the year I won too. But then you would play him like he put one year. I think it was at Bear C. He won world tour finals. He got on this like heater where he beat Roger Rafa back to back. Like 2 and 2 and 2 and 3.

[Chris Eubanks]

Right. He beat. Yeah, both of them.

[James Blake]

Like maybe, maybe not the best backhand of all time. But I'm saying for that three week, that three week pocket, I don't know that I've seen someone hit a better.

[Chris Eubanks]

But he's one of those guys that when you hear you talk to anybody about David now Bandian, the first thing they think is either ball striking or backhand. Like, like anybody. It's like, oh, the backhand. It's the first thing the back end. The back end is.

[James Blake]

But I think people are lazy in their opinion sometimes. I think that is absolutely correct with Albanian. Like his, his backhand was so good. I remember as a side tangent, I remember going to play, I made like the US team. I was the double specialist on the US team. Like 14 and under is like basically the Davis cup world championships in Japan. And at that point you don't know like, you know you're the best in Florida. You know you're one of the best.

[Chris Eubanks]

Top now you're getting exposed to, but.

[James Blake]

You don't know what the rest of earth looks like. And I remember walking in, I get goosebumps. Like talk like you can see it. Like I remember walking in and going, oh shit. The first two people I saw was this little guy from Argentina playing this other guy from Argentina. It was Coria.

[Chris Eubanks]

And now Bandian, Guillermo Coria, geez.

[James Blake]

And I go, I should quit tennis now.

[Chris Eubanks]

I gotta compete with this too. As a kid too at like 14, those guys were.

[James Blake]

Corey almost won in the French Open at 5 foot 9. Now banion almost won majors like he was finals of Wimbledon and not much taller and not like over these two. I'm going, I will never make it in this game, first two guys I saw, and they're probably the best two in the world at that. At that time. But it was like his. His backhand looked the exact same. No adjustments from 12, 13. Whatever he was on, it was most absurd thing I've ever seen. Probably the best backing of all time. I think one of two people. Novak, the superpower. He can hit all of them. Pace, rally, all the things we say about Leighton. Novak can rally like that. He can control the ball flight like that. He is the best of all time at switching. Switching directions with margin. Yes. Switching directions where it doesn't feel like he's taking added risk.

[Chris Eubanks]

What did Rafa say when you talk to him? Ball control.

[James Blake]

Ball control.

[Chris Eubanks]

He's the best I've ever seen in ball control. Like, literally, you could just put it, like, ah, I'm going to put it there. Put it there and. But it's. Layton's was interesting because it was so flat and the ball almost had this kind of, like, sail on it. Novak's pure in it. Like, it's. It's very technically sound. It's got spin. If he needs to kind of shorten it up and bun it, he can, but he doesn't. He kind of takes full swings each time.

[James Blake]

Also, like, as the game progresses, like, hopefully I was effusive enough about what, how much respect I have for Layton. Layton was 5 foot 10.

[Chris Eubanks]

Yeah.

[James Blake]

Imagine Rafa going in there and get it. He can get it up and away and out of his own. Tough. Novak's six' four.

[Chris Eubanks]

Yeah.

[James Blake]

And all of a sudden, you know, similar to how Rafa changed everything as far as Roger slice. Like the rest of us chuckers who were trying to beat Roger couldn't do anything off of his chip. Yeah. With the slice. Like, he changed it. Maybe forehand every once in a while. But yeah. Rafa comes along and starts eating slices. Well, who starts eating ra? Like we talked about the one on the forehand where Rafa's forehand to your back in the stock rally you just can't get out of. The first guy that could ever get out of that consistently was Novak.

[Chris Eubanks]

Yep.

[James Blake]

Ball control, the ability to switch directions, which inevitably allows you to find the pattern you want more often. Right. Like, I couldn't hit topspin line off of a highball. Right. I was going to chip. I was going to try to do something, but, like, I took on way more risk. 20 or 30% more risk if I wanted to go line. Yeah, right.

[Chris Eubanks]

Sure.

[James Blake]

Novak, maybe the differentials, 2 or 3%.

[Chris Eubanks]

Yep.

[James Blake]

Right. The ability to switch directions without adding risk. I think Novak is the all time master at that and especially off of that side. And he has the thing with Murray, like when he's stretching on returns, he has that Gumby effect where he can fight one more ball and do all that. But for my money, I don't know. I don't know who's better.

[Chris Eubanks]

And he started what. I think there have been other guys who do it specifically on clay. I know Rafa's always been good at sliding to his backhand side on that right leg. But in terms of doing it on a hard court and doing it on a grass court on other services, Novak was the first that I saw who could consistently measure their like steps and run into a sliding into the backhand. And now we're seeing it become more commonplace now. But at the time when Novak, you know, ascending in 2011, 2012, he was kind of the first guy on hard court that you would go out there and would go with the left leg and was hitting it and still on balance enough to recover back into the court. So it's almost. I talk about it with Jannik all the time and we'll get into it later, but it's like having two forehands because that ability to load on this leg is just the same as loading on this leg left versus right. And Novak was the first one that I saw, saw it on clay. I even go back and watch some old video. Safin was doing it on clay the early 2000s. So there were guys who were doing it not on a hardcourt, not on all services, not against every opponent. And that was Novak.

[James Blake]

That's, that's one thing that, like, how has the game changed over the last 20 years? Oh, five. Marty was talented. He could hit an open stance backhand like, but like seeing guys just grind into that corner, left leg, open stance, like that wasn't something that happened every day. Right, right. And now it seems like it happens every day in every match. Maybe like it's, it's, it's again. But you have Novak setting it. That's why tennis is always going to be better. Always, always. James has this thing like where he says and people get all pissed and it's, you know, James of Harvard, like, this is absolute. This is, I don't know, it's just the way it is. He goes, whoever's number one in the world at the time is the best player of all time, maybe not the best career of all time, but like.

[Chris Eubanks]

The best tennis player.

[James Blake]

Like we are going to be better. And they're going to be better in 20 years than they are now, no matter how good the guys are. Now is basically the point. And I was like, that's dumb. And then I thought about, I'm like, that's pretty smart. Like, that's pretty good. A couple of one handers that I need to get into this equation before Andre is going to be the last one that I end on. Because his ability to create speed off that side is maybe unparalleled. Ed Burke was an absolute. He had like, he, I, I got to think he would tell you that that forehand wasn't the one, maybe the best, maybe the best net mover along with Jack that I've ever seen, man.

[Chris Eubanks]

I was watching some old video of Edberg like a couple months ago. I was like, dude, he would get to the net inside the service line in two steps. He'd be 2ft behind the baseline and then just 1, 2.

[James Blake]

It's a joke on the service line. He looked like he could literally win a match in D.C. and then go like perform at the ballet later that night. Like he was so. He's just unbelievable. Kick serve was the big nasty one. Like he changed a lot of the stuff for him.

[Chris Eubanks]

He managed though. He, he, he did what he could on the forehand to get in, shove it to spot, shove it, line run in.

[James Blake]

And you're also getting help from the court. Then if you shove it, if you can just find depth in your Edberg. He did, he did what he had to do on the forehand. Yeah. But I remember, I don't know if he, I don't know if it was during our interview or if it's just one of the many nights we've had over beers, but Andre saying like, I'm telling you, like I could lean into a backhand and there's people I can count on one hand where I was stressed. Even if I firmed one up and Edberg, Edberg would flow and just open it up and he would almost like the back leg would almost go around. Like a door opening.

[Chris Eubanks]

Yeah.

[James Blake]

Like it just swing through. He goes, that guy could just Cole cock. Like really. He goes, he. And he chipping like, he goes, I had to find space here. He goes similar to your point, he's like, forehand look terrible. Couldn't hit topspin if you paid him a dollar right now. But like he would shove it. But like if he went backhand, he almost bait, you know, Pete would kind of bait you into the forehand. He said this guy Would just rip city open up. Like so maybe not the best backhand of all time, but like needs to be mentioned with one handers and like, you know, wink. While Rinka would just coldcock backhand winners. Like he said Edberg had that ability. Big like spinny first lux backhand.

[Chris Eubanks]

Yes.

[James Blake]

Where it's like you. You grab it and like you leave one hanging. It used to be like you leave one hanging to the forehand side, guys were going to damage you. This guy is one of the first guys I remember on clay where you leave one hanging to either side. Guggenquarton's backhand. Yeah. When he had time, you could rush it. I played him twice when he was number one in the world in 2001. 11 loss won Canada and Cincy. But like he had the ability also like he would be leaning back, like throw it up. Like he would be leaning back and you'd be like, okay, he's gonna flip one.

[Marty Fish]

Yeah.

[James Blake]

And it would have the same trajectory as flipping one, but it was way faster.

[Chris Eubanks]

Really?

[James Blake]

Like where you were like, oh God. Like it presented the same way off the racket, but you're like, that's getting there in a hurry and it's jumping up and away. Google was. And he could unload line. Like Andre would be in there on the back inside and he would just open up the shoulders line. Guga's back. It was a joke. Tommy Haas is back.

[Mike Bryan]

It was a joke.

[Chris Eubanks]

Yeah.

[James Blake]

And he could return with the chip. He could firm up. Like you could go 137 and he could firm it up and he could flatten it out. He could throw it up in the air. Andre Agassi created more speed off of a dead ball off that side than should be humanly possible. He. His back end is. I think it's there with Novak as the. As the two best ever.

[Chris Eubanks]

Yep.

[James Blake]

Yeah.

[Chris Eubanks]

You hit them all. You had a nice long list. Some nice long flies.

[Marty Fish]

That was a lot.

[Chris Eubanks]

It's a lot of mentions.

[James Blake]

Yeah. My top five list was 12.

[Marty Fish]

Just trying to get some Christmas presents.

[James Blake]

Whatever. It's my show.

[Mike Bryan]

Sue me.

[Marty Fish]

We heard you.

[James Blake]

Nine years of bring back the snack wrap and you've won. But maybe you should have asked for more. Say hello to the hot honey snack wrap. Now you've really won. Go to McDonald's and get it.

[Chris Eubanks]

Your little one grew three inches overnight. Adorable.

[Mike Bryan]

Also expensive.

[Chris Eubanks]

Sell their pint sized pieces on depop and list them in minutes with no selling fees.

[Mike Bryan]

Because somewhere a dad refuses to pay.

[James Blake]

Full price for the clothes his kids.

[Chris Eubanks]

Will outgrow tomorrow and he's ready to buy your son's entire wardrobe right now.

[James Blake]

Consider your future growth Bird budget secured.

[Mike Bryan]

Start selling on depop where taste recognizes taste. Payment processing fees and boosting fees still apply.

[James Blake]

See website for details. All right, what do you got? Banks.

[Chris Eubanks]

Yeah. So I mean, you hit everybody I had for that pre2012 period. Obviously post 2012, I'm going to still include Novak, I'm going to still include Murray, his prime years. You've already talked about that. Yep. Stan, I think you touched on it a little bit. Stan was similar to how you talk about. Novak was able to handle the high, the balls above the shoulder against Rafael. Stan was able. One of the first one handers I saw who had the pocket right at the waist, which is for those who don't know the strike zone for a one hander is typically low. And at the waist, like that's kind of the ideal zone. You can generate more pace, you can create spin. When he starts to get a little high, that's when it starts to get a little tough. That's why we saw Roger struggle with Rafa for so many years. Because you just don't have the same control. You don't have the same stability. Stan had the same stability. Stan could generate pace. He could just had so much rotation on the ball and he could just dictate wherever he wanted and it was almost like bullying. You know, he was one of the first guys I saw, probably the only guy on, on a one hand backhand side could just bully you around the court and just go through you cross line. And we saw when he got hot three times in the majors, final three grand Slams like he. And it was on Aussie Open, US Open, Roland Garros, like he had that ability to really hit through his opponents on that backhand side unlike any other one hander that I've kind of seen. I've seen guys who were good with the chip and they had the variety. Stan was like, no, I don't, I don't, I don't need Roger's chip. I'm just going to just lace it.

[James Blake]

Well, one thing that he completely like 100% improved and got better return, first serve return like he used to, he used to try to hit over him. Yeah. Once he learned how to lay that ball down. So he lays it down. It could be a middle of the road ball. You know, if you don't cook that next one, he's opening up the shoulders. Like his ability to turn a chip return into like if you don't hit it well, you're on defense again like immediately. And the other thing that he did really well. So imagine you're in a cross court rally and you know, all of a sudden you pull sand to his forehand and he's coming back to the middle, right? So he's just recovered off the forehand. Yeah, yeah, that backhand inside out.

[Chris Eubanks]

Inside out, yeah, he'll take a slice that to the right, just go inside.

[Mike Bryan]

Out on the back.

[James Blake]

That's not a natural thing. Like you forehand inside out is one thing, but like his ability to cut, like he would do it against Novak, right. Like Novak would bully him here, which you, that's where you're gonna bully. Stand 100% is to the forehand coming back to the middle. If you don't hit it perfect, he would go here and you know, he could open up the shoulders cross on that ball. Like he liked hitting it in motion. But then he could also at the last second, inside out backhand from the middle of the court. It kind of, it's weird.

[Chris Eubanks]

Like if you see that you're like, you're assuming, okay, he's not gonna go.

[James Blake]

Away like he does the first time. You're going to. No, yeah, I don't like it. I don't want that. But that, that was, that's the biggest differentiator with him and other one handers that I've seen is that ability to like and it doesn't have to be fully inside out. It could be like, you could be four steps left of the middle line and like, like at the, I don't know it like his ability to hit like an inside. I know it's so weird to say the inside out, one handed backhand from certain spots of the court. I don't know that I saw anyone else do that.

[Chris Eubanks]

Well, but the thing, the point that you highlight is it's kind of the only time you would get in that situation. You're stretched into the deuce side on the, or in any way, either return or you're just running out there. You're running back to the middle and the ball's kind of coming at you.

[James Blake]

You're playing against the flight of the.

[Chris Eubanks]

Ball, against the flight of the ball. But you can. Stan would put the brakes on and almost have to take a step to the right. So it's like you're always told, hey, you know, find the forehand, move around to the, move to the left. You, you don't want to hit backhands out of the do side. But Stan was able to show. No. You can. Like, he's recovering. He's like, I'm better suited. Taking one step to my right and hitting this backhand, then taking three steps to my left to then hit a forehand, which I. It's not where I rather hit.

[James Blake]

Your opponent's movement is not counterintuitive. If he takes a forehand there.

[Chris Eubanks]

Yes.

[James Blake]

Right. Like my movement and my checks. You cannot read the middle.

[Chris Eubanks]

It makes more sense.

[James Blake]

You can stay kind of in your, like, general, like, normally flow state. Yep. As soon as he goes here and you can get burned in. Like, you don't get burned inside out.

[Chris Eubanks]

Yeah.

[James Blake]

Like, by anyone but a lefty.

[Chris Eubanks]

Yeah, like a righty.

[James Blake]

Burning you inside out with it. That's. That, to me, is the differentiator for him.

[Chris Eubanks]

Okay, so Stan Zverev's back in joke, dude. Six, six. Six, six what? However tall he is with the ability. How did I not catch that? How did I not catch that? For those of you listening, I not catch that.

[Marty Fish]

Thank you.

[Chris Eubanks]

That was a good one.

[James Blake]

Shout out Hank Roddick. Shout out Hank.

[Chris Eubanks]

No, it's just a complete backhand. Like, he can get into the backhand cross and will not miss it. He can redirect line. He can handle balls above the shoulder.

[James Blake]

He's a right leg. Like, you don't see the one where it's like you step over fully anymore. Yeah. The old school. Step in and still pull it.

[Chris Eubanks]

He still does it. Yeah, he still does it.

[James Blake]

It's.

[Chris Eubanks]

In a way, it's like we talked about center's forehand and how it's just a great stock ball. He can do everything with it. Zverev is like that. And it's. It's the side that I think he's more comfortable kind of injecting pace on. When he gets that low, that kind of high end in the court, he knows he can lean into it. Like, it's a really, really tough ball to deal with. I think Zverev's backhand has to be up there, especially on that post. 2012 Medvedev's backhand.

[James Blake]

Did you want to say on Zverev? I want to talk about Zverev back. The other thing that he does really well, and it works against most of earth, is his ability. When I'm watching him and I'm curious to hear your thoughts and see if I'm taking crazy pills, but also his ability with his length to cook it middle.

[Chris Eubanks]

Yeah.

[James Blake]

And all of a sudden you're trying to run around it on a forehead and you get like T. Rex. Yeah, you get like that. And then if you play it soften up, all of a sudden he's up on it again. Right. Or like, listen, he's not going to be inside the court cooking flat forehands, but if he, if he catches you and he T Rexes one and he has one up here, it's not good for you. Yeah, right. Like, I mean, but it feels like his ability to kind of bruise you through the middle is nasty.

[Chris Eubanks]

Yeah. Especially so when he's. When he's stretched as well, like returning. He'll. He stands deep on the return.

[James Blake]

You try to take across still.

[Chris Eubanks]

He's still. It's amazing. But he's still. Even when he gets the right leg across, he. The left swings around like you talk.

[James Blake]

About, he does like this. And then, like.

[Chris Eubanks]

And then he just runs this little, like, right.

[James Blake]

And then it opens. Because normally, like, right, if you're wide of. If you're left of the sideline as a righty hitting a backhand and your right leg is over, you're kind of screwed.

[Chris Eubanks]

Like, you're, like, you're hitting it. You're trying to gather your steps, like.

[James Blake]

This height thing, but, like, he's able to get it and still not get stuck. I don't know. It's phenomenal.

[Chris Eubanks]

Yeah. Yeah. 100% right. And how he uses the middle of the court produces a lot of pace. So. Yeah, for sure. I think Medvedev is. It's, it's. It's similar to Zvera, but it's different.

[James Blake]

I was like, I was going to be pissed at you if you didn't put. Because no one ever puts Medvedev on this list because I think it drives me crazy.

[Chris Eubanks]

It's. In a way, it's. We talked about it with Leighton.

[Mike Bryan]

It's the same ball.

[Chris Eubanks]

It's the same ball, except the guy is actually. Go ahead. Say the height. He's actually six, six and three quarters or whatever he is. Six, seven.

[James Blake]

What does that round up to, Mike?

[Chris Eubanks]

Yeah, here we go. Come on, guys. Shout out, Hank.

[James Blake]

But yeah, so he never watches our show. He's gonna be so pumped just because he got a couple shout outs. That's it.

[Chris Eubanks]

Yeah. But no Mevidev's backhand.

[Marty Fish]

It's.

[Chris Eubanks]

I played Medvedev, obviously, a couple times. One on hard, one on grass. And it. The ball flight, because we talked about the return. What's so tricky about his. His ball in particular is it's traveling that low, that flat kind of thing, but it's not fast. There's the weight is like the weight on the ball comes from traveling such a long distance. It's not the ball itself. So if you were to stand there and watch Medvedev practice and he's hitting back in his cross court and he's three feet behind the baseline, just normal practice, you'd be like, I don't get it. Because you're looking at it.

[James Blake]

I love it so much.

[Chris Eubanks]

And you're just like, it's just kind of sailing. It's just sailing. It's just sailing.

[James Blake]

And you can't attack it.

[Chris Eubanks]

And then you can't attack it. There's nothing you can do to really be able to get on that. I mean, certain guys, Carlos and center can do it, but like, for the.

[James Blake]

Don't talk about the Avengers.

[Chris Eubanks]

For the vast majority of players, it's. It's such a tricky ball to deal with because it's low, it's flat. You can't. Balls that players typically attack have some height. They have something where you can kind of gener get up under it, or.

[James Blake]

You can use their pace, or you.

[Chris Eubanks]

Can use their pace like a rublev. If you fire one in a rublev, he's using the pace and he's redirected. But typically you want to have. If it's a slow ball, you want to have some height so that you can hit through it, hit down, generate pace. Daniels is like, no, I'll just sell this thing. Kind of like the Hewitt ball flight, but it's just going to be coming from 8, 9, 10ft behind the baseline. And I'm going to leave you to say, hey, what are you going to do? And it's because the ball is slow, too, when it leaves his strings. He makes up the court position when he wants to.

[James Blake]

So he kind of runs through the shot. He runs through it so good. He's like the master of nuance. And I feel like people don't get it.

[Chris Eubanks]

He breaks rules that you would normally tell kids, like, you don't want to do that, but he can do it. He can play far behind the baseline and not hit it that big.

[James Blake]

It's like a spider. Like, he invites you into his web. Yeah. Doesn't sting you, he just wraps you up.

[Chris Eubanks]

Yeah.

[James Blake]

Like, I'm so happy you said his name, because you always hear his Vera and you always hear all the same names and it's like, no, we get credit for consistency and we get credit for staying out of trouble. Like, those should be equally worthy as someone who can just crack crack off winners.

[Chris Eubanks]

100%.

[James Blake]

Right. Like, I'm so happy.

[Chris Eubanks]

Flashy, though. Like, the. The winners are what people kind of. They gravitate toward because it's the thing that lingers in the mind of like, oh, man, that was a good shot. That was a bad shot. But you're watching Medvedev, you're like, oh, that is a tough ball, dude.

[James Blake]

Novak couldn't get through him cross when they. He won that U.S. open off of him. Like, Medvedev was. He's like, one of the only he. He was staying in backhand cross court rallies and won most of them that day.

[Chris Eubanks]

So it was a joke when. When Rafa beat him in the final of Aussie Open, Medvedev was up 26 to love. And Rafa started using the short chip.

[James Blake]

Because then he has to rush it.

[Chris Eubanks]

He has to rush it. So now he's trying to use different tools to kind of get him out of his comfort zone. Because Rafa was having no success just playing straight from the baseline. Daniil was more than okay with taking that ball. And just again, he's tall.

[James Blake]

There is something to Rafa's ball. Like, I would have handled it better. My backhand sucks anyway, so it would have been as stressful. But six foot seven is easier than six one.

[Chris Eubanks]

Yeah, right.

[James Blake]

But it was.

[Chris Eubanks]

It was just so fascinating to watch. I'm like, man, Danielle's handling Rafa's forehand fine, like, and Rafa had to make the adjustment. Was able to come back from two sets of left down. So Medvedev's backhand. I'm only gonna have one honorable mention to try to keep this at 6. K. Nishikori. Don't know if you played K. I did, man.

[James Blake]

Can I just apologize right now? I need to apologize to Kanishikori because.

[Chris Eubanks]

You didn't include him.

[James Blake]

No, not because of that. Not because of that. Because I don't know if I agree with you, but I will say, like, the meanest I might have ever been on the court was to K. Nishikori.

[Chris Eubanks]

To K. What did K. Do?

[James Blake]

Nothing.

[Mike Bryan]

Besides be good.

[James Blake]

He was good. And I was threatened. That was it. What? It was in San Jose. He won. Del Rey beat James in the final.

[Chris Eubanks]

Yeah. From, like, Qualys when he was like, qualie quality in and beat James when.

[James Blake]

He was like 12 years old. I literally picked a fight and started talking shit. Only because I was scared of him. Beat him two and three and he was like, I. I felt bad, like, soon afterwards. Not even like, a little bit afterwards. I'm sorry. I Was a dick. K, your backhand's fantastic. As you were, Chris. So, so I apologize.

[Chris Eubanks]

So K's backhand, to me, as someone I've watched for years and had the chance to, to play late in his career, but to still see the quality of it, the return, the second serve return on the backhand side. For me, K's ability to get inside like two, three feet inside the baseline kind of in no man's land, kind of puts you in this weird spot. He's not big. He's not a big guy. And that's small guy. That's my thing. He has to get because he's not that big. If you're going to be aggressive on the return, you got to get in a little bit closer than Zverev does. Verev chooses to stand back, but if he wanted to stand on the baseline, the kick isn't going to bother him as much. Because of his height, k is under 6 foot. So if he wants to be aggressive on the second, he's got to get in almost in no man's land. And he was able to just off inside out if he wanted, pull it with the left hand inside in. And when you got into the backhand, the backhand exchange is just watching it similar to Hewitt, I think for sure, K had more firepower off of it, but you did not think he was going to miss. He could just stay in that pocket. He could redirect his ball. Control on the backhand side was a joke. So I, I, I looking at it, and I'm like, he doesn't get talked about as much except for the players. A lot of the players who play KO all say, oh, that backhand is a joke. So I put K in there as an honorable mention. I just think his backhand is very, maybe to the tennis masses, a bit underrated, but to everyone in the locker room, you mentioned best backhands. Yeah, by far. Guys mentioned Katie.

[James Blake]

I like the inside baseball. So I. Two names, as you're talking through it that I thought of. I thought of K because I thought of that U.S. open run and then I thought about silage. We're in.

[Chris Eubanks]

You think backhand.

[James Blake]

Oh, I thought his backhand was really good.

[Chris Eubanks]

Now it's very good. That's served for that serve for him.

[James Blake]

You think of forehands.

[Chris Eubanks]

Well, that U.S. open. I'm only talking about that U.S. open.

[James Blake]

Oh, the serve was. I'm just saying, generally for someone really tall.

[Chris Eubanks]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[James Blake]

The other one, Burnish, he used to get really low.

[Chris Eubanks]

Burnish used to get really low.

[James Blake]

Burnage was. If he was at a club, Burtage could drop his ass. I'll tell you that much right now. I'll tell you that much right now. I'm just saying I've never seen him at a club. I don't know what he does, but, like, just based on, like, he used.

[Chris Eubanks]

To get so low. I used to.

[James Blake]

Assholes hitting pavement. Like, on backhands. I bet he can throw it. I bet he can drop it.

[Chris Eubanks]

Yeah, he.

[James Blake]

He.

[Chris Eubanks]

He had that. That ability to kind of hold the middle.

[James Blake]

There's your clip, Sophie. You're welcome. That.

[Chris Eubanks]

That middle of the court area of when guys were kind of fired and that Burdish could kind of just sink down almost to the ground and just take the pace, redirect it. But it's backhand. I mean, we could, if we were to. This list would be very interesting if we tried to divide it by country. If we said best backhands overall with.

[James Blake]

Czech or Russians next German on served.

[Chris Eubanks]

Like, because the Czechs, by and large, great backhands. Russians. A lot of Russians, great backhands. Like, we go by country. Kind of like stereotypes.

[James Blake]

Then you'd almost have to, like, break it down by server. Oh, you know who else had a really good backhand? Like, wasn't going to blow you up the court, but had the trajectory. Thing was, David Ferrer couldn't go through.

[Chris Eubanks]

I didn't.

[Mike Bryan]

I didn't.

[Chris Eubanks]

I didn't. Like, he tried to find a lot of form. Ferrers, I remember he used to let go of the left hand a lot.

[James Blake]

It was like he was like on a. On a. On a fast surface. Yeah, he had this little pinchy knockdown thing that was kind of like. He was great, too. You know who. You know who wasn't in danger of. Of being on this list? These guys. Zero Chance right here.

[Chris Eubanks]

Zero chance.

[James Blake]

Who do you think as a. As a. Like a podcast, who do you think has the worst backhands? Us or nothing major.

[Chris Eubanks]

I'm not getting in this, Andy.

[James Blake]

I'm not doing this. Thank you for watch. We'll see you next time. Monster Energy. Everybody knows White Monster, Zero Ultra. That's the OG it kicked off this whole Zero Sugar Energy drink thing, but.

[Mike Bryan]

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[James Blake]

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