← Served with Andy Roddick
Served with Andy Roddick
Clijsters’ Former Coach Carl Maes on Clay Strategy, Tour Stories, & More | Love All w/ Kim Clijsters
01:04:27
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- [00:00]
A
Here we go. Hi, everyone. Welcome back to our new episode of Love. All very excited today. I feel like I'm excited every time we start, but today I'm super excited because it takes me back through, you know, a big part of my tennis life, and from a young age, when I was 10 or 11, started working with Karl Maass, who we have on our show today, and really excited to pick his brain more and kind of learn a little bit about why he did some things when I was younger. And we're at the stage where we're talking about changing surfaces and going from the hard chords to the clay chords. And kind of just now it's my turn to dissect his brain a little bit and see why he did some of the things and what was the thought process behind it. So super excited to talk to him.
- [00:52]
B
Okay, should we start with some Henley's headlines, Ken?
- [00:54]
A
Go for it, Blair.
- [00:55]
B
All right. Jess Pegula, back to back wins in Charleston. It's her 11th career title. She's currently ranked 5 in the world. She's been as high as 3. But, gosh, you feel like the way that she is playing this year, we are destined to see that number go up. Um, she was the first player to repeat in Charleston since Serena or to go back to back or defend a title since 2012. 2013. Serena Williams. Uh, and as an added bonus, we talked about this a few weeks ago, Kim. The Charleston tournament made their total prize money purse equal with what you would see at a men's 500 event. So, yeah, Jess took home $354,000. So she didn't get the pay bump last year. She was like, I just got to win again.
- [01:42]
A
And she did, and she didn't get it. She didn't get it easy, though. She had to work hard for it. I think she was on Court for five matches, but over 11 hours, I think that she was on the court, and her finals were the easiest match out of all. So she played in the first four rounds, close three setters, but really good for her to. After a long, kind of hardcore season, right where you have Indian Wells, Miami, and it's intense, and there's a lot going on that she was able to physically and mentally stay really committed to playing well there and just also really excited to see. Although she was the first seed, but you get to a point in your career where I feel like experience starts making a difference. And I definitely think she's also reached that point where in big moments, even though she's probably maybe not feeling her Best on a different surface yet, but knowing when to hit certain shots, when to maybe back off a little bit and not go for the winners too early. Wait for your opponents to make the mistakes. Yeah. Experience can definitely have a big impact in certain stages of your career, and I definitely think she can benefit from that once in a while.
- [02:52]
B
Yeah. And we saw that in Houston as well with Tommy Paul, who, funny enough, just joked on the players box podcast about dumping him as a mixed Devils partner. Tommy has rebounded. He was the winner in Houston. Saved three match points in the final against Roman Viratchaga, who was a player I think a lot of people may not have known. Fun fact. His dad. Do you know about Burchaga's father scored the winning goal for Argentina in the 1986 World Cup? So Viratchaga is the only player in his family who plays tennis.
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A
Are you serious?
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B
He's got athletics. Yeah.
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A
Like, they lost to Argentina in 86. Yeah. So they lost to Argentina in the semifinal in 86.
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B
Well, there you go.
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A
Did he score that in the final?
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B
Yes, in the final. To beat Germany, I believe, in Germany.
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A
Yeah. No way. Oh, my God. I would love to meet him.
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B
Also, shout out to Thiago. To Tirante. Have you seen him play at all, Kim?
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A
No.
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B
He was taught to play by his aunt Vanessa and just has, like, a real Argentinian flair in his game. Yeah. Oh, my. Like, even his serve motion is just like one continuous, like, sort of like garden hose type thing. Anyway, I so enjoyed watching him, but also he had a fantastic personality, and I love getting the chance to meet new players who. I'm like, I hope I see you again down the road. Because it's just nice when they sort of have the sparkly personality to go along with the. The flair game.
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A
The garden hose game.
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B
Right. Do you know what I mean?
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A
I know. Yeah. It's like the. At the car dealerships, those little.
- [04:38]
B
The wind socks. Yeah, totally. Like a windsock game. That was the kind of game that I wished I could have and I was, you know, a robot. But anyway, a really great week in Houston. They do not spare any expense at that event. It's first class for the fans, for the players, and also for the people working behind the scenes. And I will tell you, that's not often the case. Sometimes you hit two of those of the three, you don't always hit the trifecta. So it's a really great place.
- [05:05]
A
Nice to hear. Love that. Love.
- [05:07]
B
All right, shall we? Unless you have any. Anything else to say there, Kim?
- [05:12]
A
No, Just exciting. I'm just super excited. Like, I think it's been great to get these American clay courts started and over and done with now and seeing the winners, and then now, like, I'm super excited to see, you know, where this European clay court summer is going and, yeah, seeing adjustments that players are going to make to their game physically and just, you know, we've seen some images of IGA training at Rafa's academy, and the intensity is definitely there, you know, even in the short little clip. But what an experience to be able to be on court with Rafa and to kind of get to pick his brain in one of the stages that, for him was such a big part of his career. And so I'm just curious. I'm sure there's going to be plenty of journalists asking her about what that was like, and so soon I think we will get to hear some personal comments from her. But, yeah, I think she combined. I saw that her family is there as well with her, her sisters, and so it's nice to, I think, be able to kind of combine the downtime with the hard work on court. And, you know, she obviously sets the bar really high and felt like, you know, she needed to make a change in her team and to be at Rafa's academy, and, yeah, we'll see where it goes. But it's exciting to see her, you know, playing well and focused and having that energy that she brings and at the same time, still, you know, can enjoy it. Right. Because I do feel like the enjoyment was missing a little bit in these last few tournaments.
- [06:50]
B
Yeah. And I mean, she just. I mean, Rafa is her idol in a very sort of literal sense of the word. I will never forget, we did this segment in Cincinnati. It was called Compliments from Cincinnati. And we had players write a compliment. We had these little postcards that we made, and they had to write a compliment to a player on if it was WTA, then on the ATP tour, and vice versa. IGA, no joke, sat there for, like, a good 10 minutes. Everybody on the PR team was like, we gotta go. But she sat there and she is just writing this card to Rafa, and at the end, she's like, you're gonna make sure he gets that right. I was like, girl, we got you. So it really, truly is somebody that she's looked up to. So to be able to learn from him. And also Francisco Roig, who gotten a little bit of hot water. He's had quite a year. He got. He split with Emirati KANU at the End of January, gets hired by Giovanni and Pecci. Parikar was with him for a month. Ish. And then we hear the announcement about a week ago that he has joined iga's team and Mpeche Parikar went on the record and said, yeah, he didn't tell me.
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A
He told me.
- [08:02]
B
He did not tell me directly. And he used the term. I'm sure this was, you know, translated. But it's a ruthless world. And I think that, that, that is a fact, because you love to think that the only factors at play here are personal factors, but there are money factors, there are status factors, there are location factors, family factors. So many factors. So tough. Tough for gmp, but good for you guys.
- [08:28]
A
It is. It is. And to me, a little bit surprising to hear that that happened like that, because, you know, I think you do kind of everything that's attached to Rafa or something. You set a very high standard. So it was surprising to hear that there was maybe no. Unless maybe he missed something or. I don't know. But if there was no conversation, that's. Yeah, that was understandably disappointing right from his side.
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B
Totally. And there, it's just again, a reminder that there. There's no real rule book. And also it's. It's a. There. There isn't the normal corporate hierarchy to work within, like, nor, you know, in the corporate world. You have a way of sort of approaching these types of things. And tennis is kind of the wild west in. In that way, because every single arrangement is different.
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A
Definitely. Yeah, it definitely is. And. And again. But there is a little bit of kind of common sense and respect, I think, to, you know, even if it is hard news that you have to bring to kind of just sit down and sometimes you can be on different the world and when. When, you know, hard decisions have to be made or communicated and. But yeah, it is what it is. The world keeps turning and, you know,
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B
and so does the coaching carousel.
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A
It does. And then in a few days, nobody talks about it anymore and there will be something else to talk about.
- [09:48]
B
That's right. But as. As Maddy Key said, I'm. I'm paraphrasing here. She's like the last thing that IGA needs on clay is Rafa. Something along those lines, which I think all the other players are like, it for real. Like, she already has several of these titles at Roland Garros. So, yeah, we'll see how that works for iga. But that, I think, brings us to our intro of our special guest, which is almost as long as his interview because he's done so many things.
- [10:19]
A
He has, he has.
- [10:21]
B
So we're going to be talking, as Kim mentioned to her former coach, Karl Moss. He started working with the Belgian Tennis Federation in 1992, worked with many top players, most famously Kim, of course, who he worked with periodically through the end of her career. He was the academy director at Kim's Academy, the Kim Kleister's Academy, and has welcomed international, junior and professional players from 62 countries to train under him. He's been on the head. He has been the head of women's tennis for the lta. He's also been the Belgian Village and King cup captain leaving leading that team to the final in 2006. He's currently the director at the Soto Grande Racket center in Spain. He's also the international director of coaching at the Professional Tennis Registry and he has an online coaching exchange called Orange Coach. So, so many things. I'm sure I just scratched the surface, but we're really excited to hear from him after the break.
- [11:18]
C
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- [11:49]
A
well, I am really, really excited for today's podcast. It kind of hits home a little bit more from the this side of the ocean. Thinking back on my tennis life growing up in Belgium and having Carl Maas who was one of my first coaches early on, I feel like there's a few people, few people's voice and tennis teaching and passion for tennis that stays in a player's mind. And Carl is I would say definitely at the top of the list. When I play tennis now, I still at times hear some of his comments and things that I have to focus on. So really nice to have Carl on this Love all podcast today.
- [12:35]
B
Yeah, I mean I think in terms of where we are in the season, Carl, we would love to get your perspective on the hard to clay transition and you can frame it in any way that you want. But, but for me I'm curious, like when Kim first stepped on the clay court for clay season, what were you doing differently? What Were you working on what were the first things that you did? And what's the most important thing to focus on, in your opinion, when a player is making that transition?
- [13:02]
C
Yeah, I think there's. There's a technical element and there's a tactical element. Right. So, I mean, the movement on the clay is, is. Is different. I mean, it's different on the green clay and the. Maybe I don't know if you want to go in that direction, but, you know, it is a different type of play that. That is used here in
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A
Europe.
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C
And actually being able to keep your balance with a split or without a split, because I know Kim, you know, who likes to split on the hardcore as well. But being able to position yourself in a good way and still use that, you know, what we call in technical terms, the ground force reaction is completely different. And on a hard court, you stop and normal people stand still. Not Kim, she slides a little bit. Djokovic. But I think there's a technical element that is absolutely different, substantially different on a hard court and a clay court. And I actually sometimes use a strange sentence, maybe I say you need to be faster on the clay court, because on the clay court you need to slide into the ball and you're loading of the shot, you takes a lot longer. You can't use the pace of the ball, so you need to produce that pace. You need to use a lot more rotational power. And therefore, in my opinion, it's not completely correct. You need to be faster on a clay court because the power that you need to generate takes more time. So that's like a technical element. And then in terms of practical elements, you know, you wouldn't, you know, Craig o', Shaughnessy, who I'm sure you know, a lot of the listeners and yourselves also know, you know, he talks about this aggressive margin and, you know, and winning a lot of points in 0 to 4. But even a guy like Nadal, on his statistics, he scores very high on winning the number of shots on a clay court. Now, you can easily misinterpret that because you don't associate Nadal with winning the majority of the short points in a match. You know, we think of Nadal and we think about long rallies 4 meters behind the baseline, but ultimately it's only one point, right? But he just wins the majority of the points in 0 to 4 because he doesn't make any mistakes. So you have to be more patient. You know, if you have this formula about the winners and then the forced errors, which are semi winners minus the unforced errors. Nadal was the king of that. He was the king of that. And Jimmy Arias, one of your countrymen, says it's absolutely right as well. You know, zero to four is very important, but because the winner of the match wins the most points in 0 to 4, but also the loser of the match has lost the most points, and very often by making too many mistakes. So I would say there's a technical element of the movements, and there's a tactical element which is very much related to winners, forced errors and unforced errors,
- [16:09]
A
that balance and Carl. So explain to me a little bit or go through your thought process, because I feel like I was so young where it was almost blind trust, in a sense. Right. Whereas. Okay, we're getting to the clay courts. Okay, this is how we're starting. And I remember doing lots of little, like, mini tennis drills where it was even without the racket, where it was literally learning to move and learning to have those quick feet and running around. So explain to me a little bit, and I think also to the people at home, the difference of. You cannot just adjust. Maybe over time, we saw some players like a Sharapova, who maybe didn't adjust so much. Right. To playing on clay and adjusting the movement on clay. But in general, just explain to me a little bit, what was your thought process behind that? Okay, this is what I want her to improve. She's really good on her hardcore when it comes to moving. And how can we make her adjust? Like, I found that the hardest thing that I found on clay was the adjustments of, like, oh, it's like it's popping up a little bit here. I got it. I got to, you know, take a couple more steps back or I got to move in closer or like that. That constant adjustment and then being patient was something that after a while, I really started to probably get, like, frustrated with at times. So explain to me a little bit, like, how were you trying to get the start of the season for me to. So. To get my footing right? Like, what were some of those little drills that, you know, you. You always had me do? And Leighton at times as well.
- [17:42]
C
Yeah, let's. Let's. Let's go back in time talking about Sharapova. It's interesting you say that She's, I think, won four or five Grand Slams, but the last two were the. The French. You know, she's. She's. She's one. She's won on hard court first, and it was only several years later she actually managed to sort of find this Balance on the clay, because hardcore was obviously her most natural surface. And I think talking about hardcore, you worked on your play called game already on a hard court. Because something that traditionally I would do in February, March, when you're out of the tournaments and you prepare for the clay court, is just to make the net a little bit higher and put the single stick in the middle or have the net a little bit higher. So it actually makes you think twice before you want to go for. For that winner and have a minimum number of shots before the point is live and actually extend the length of rallies a little bit. And that. And make you a little bit more aware of constructing the point is. Is more important. But when it comes to. Specifically to the sliding, obviously you. You're a very natural slider, if we can call it like that. But we mustn't forget that from a European perspective, in Belgium and in most countries around Belgium, we're playing on clay. Clay is the surface to play on from April till September. October, you play on clay, and it's the red clay. There were at the times when we then had to prepare for, whether it's Miami or Australia, we had to either play indoors or if the weather was nice in February, we had to go to Antwerp, where they had had two hard courts. That was it. So you're talking about a culture of developing youngsters, which is completely different in Europe than in the States, where you can, you know, barely find. Well, green play courts maybe, but red play courts, I don't think there's too many of them in the States. So I think there was a natural in Indiana. No idea.
- [19:50]
A
It's an inside joke. They tricked me last week during. On April Fool's Day. Yeah, go ahead, Blair, tell them.
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B
We did an April Fool's joke with the help of the team, that there was an academy in Indiana that was offering a class on how to do the splits like Kim Kleister's. And I had not seen the image. It was an AI image. I had not seen it until they threw it up on the screen. It looked what, like it was like
- [20:18]
A
a wooden chalet over red clay. I was like, in my head, I'm thinking, wow, like, they actually have, like, red clay there. Like, it looks like a legit European, like, red clay court club. Like. Yeah, so they got me good.
- [20:32]
C
That's a good one. Yeah. Now that we're in the Monte Carlo week, talking about the clay experience and. And Kim just mentioned the mini tennis one, when there has been a period where Kim would like to go to The ATP tournaments. And an ATP player would like to come to the WTA tournaments. Monte Carlo was one of these events where. Where Kim wanted to be around Leighton. And we went to practice, and not in the country club, but in a club nearby. And I remember one session when I was probably about 15 kilos lighter than and a little bit fitter than now that we started to do in the two service boxes. And I call it slide and slice, right? And you have to. Every shot, you have to slide a little bit into the shot, and you can only slice, but you can move each other around in the two service boxes, but you cannot hit a winner. You can only place the ball. Yeah. Forehand and backhand slides, no volley. So you can move each other forwards, backwards, sideways. And we would often do that as a. As a warm up, up to seven, whatever. One tiebreak as a warmup. But if you don't make any mistakes, it's a really tiring exercise. And there's been one session where we kept playing, oh, let's do another set. Let's do another set. If you miss every second ball, this is not a fun game. But if you control the ball well with your forehand, slice back and slice, move each other around. We've done this for 45 minutes, Kim. And that was the practice. We were both dead. I was a little bit more dead than you, but that was it. But that was it. But that would be more of a specific integrated play court practice. We haven't hit a ball from the baseline. We just packed it up, and we were both dripping from sweat. Maybe Kim wanted to be back with Leighton in Monte Carlo. That's maybe possible, too. But the session for me, for me, the session for me, the session was over. It was a really good clay court session, and especially in the beginning of the season, I think is great both from a tactical point of view, a mental point of view, not making a winner, having to keep the ball in play. And then obviously, the physical element was huge if you didn't. If you had these long rallies.
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A
So I just remember, like, when I was younger, I used to love the first days on clay. I loved. Because it was something new. It was different. You know, there was a different challenge. And then two weeks into it, I was like, oh, I want to go back to the hard courts, because, you know, it was just. Yeah, just the rallies were just lasting a lot longer than I wanted to in my head, and it was just harder for me to control the movement. And, yeah, just the frustration would build up just a lot quicker and Although at times, you know, like, I had some, early on in my career, I had some of my best results, right? Like at the French Open and even at times where I didn't feel like, I remember at times being confused, like, like I'm in the semifinal of the French Open and I'm not even feeling like I'm playing my best tennis. Like I don't, you know, I'm not playing fully free that, like the way that I do on a hard court. And it just, yeah, a little bit different on, on clay. But there's people out there that say, like, every clay court is the same and clay is clay. And I'm like, no, no, no, there's. That's definitely, definitely not the case.
- [23:52]
C
But I do think probably in the younger part of your career, you would have a natural advantage of having played on clay so much. Whereas as you became a really a seasoned professional in the top 10, there's more tournaments on hardcore than on clay. So automatically you're going to lose towards your end of your career a little bit your natural advantage that you had or you have to specifically work on it. What maybe Sharapova did, I don't know what she did to win the French Opens later in her career, but for you, there was a natural advantage. You didn't realize this, but you've been brought up on clay for, for six, seven months of the year.
- [24:28]
A
But I remember there were times too that, you know, you were, you would tell me, like in the, even in the lead up tournaments before the French Open, where it was like, listen, like, you're not the only one who does not like playing on clay, right? Or who does not like the movement. Like you sometimes forget as a player because you get sword with like, oh, how am I feeling out there? But you forget that on the day you just have to be good enough, you know, to beat your opponent. And it was like, I remember when that got repeated over and over to me that I was like, yeah, like, I just have to try and figure it out. And even if it's not with my best tennis, but my opponents, unless you're playing like a Justine or somebody like that who loves playing on clay, you know, there's a lot of players who dislike and don't feel comfortable out there. And I think, you know, once that kind of stuck into my head and, you know, yeah, I think I just felt a little bit more comfortable with knowing that maybe it doesn't always have to be with my best tennis or my, you know, my, my A game, but it you know, the B, B level can be good enough.
- [25:27]
C
It's a, it's a tough surface. It's, it's, it's one that exposes your weaknesses, I think a little bit more. And you just have to be patient. But you know, whilst you get exposed, you can still win just like you're saying there, you know. Absolutely.
- [25:44]
A
But patience was, that's even on hardcore. That's what, you know, Carl would tell me. Blair, like I remember at the, where was it? The, the American tournaments was Eddie her and those tournaments where, you know, he would tell me like to hit four balls into the court, like that's what I had to focus on. Four balls, like make the first four and then you can start going for the winner. Like that was like always was rushing, I feel like when at a young age. So yeah, that also was important on hardcore for me to be patient.
- [26:16]
C
And it was, it was, it was very simple because I would just sit in my face with my four fingers like this. Coaching wasn't allowed. I still use the, the four. And you know, I made it into a. Just a little tip maybe for people that are listening with, with children or players that they're coaching that are not patient enough when they want to go what I call testosterone tennis, right? The, you know, the, the juniors, they're coming all of a sudden, you know, they can hit a 400 back and a serve and definitely on the boys side, more testosterone, they start to do go for crazy decisions. I said go in your Jeep, a four by four, right? So you have four shots cross court in the first four games of a match. And this is, and the analogy with the Jeep is a Jeep gives you a safe feeling. You know, it's when you, when you're nervous at the beginning of a match or you, you completely missed the start of the match, get in your Jeep. So I would tell young players, you know, get in your Jeep. And that means like, okay, let's take some of the decision making away. Let's just go cross court. And your opponents won't figure this out. If you're playing a few games, only cross court balls, but at least it gives you a chance to get some rhythm and to get into the match. So when you're nervous, a new tournament first time, you know, just get in your Jeep for four games and then you can go in your Ferrari. But don't start off in your Ferrari straight away.
- [27:41]
A
But explain to me a little bit the difference for somebody, let's say like Jessie, like, what is it going to be like for her why, you know, why is it going to be harder? You mentioned the higher tosses, but what. Also it's more slippery, right? Like, I think that's one of the bigger differences too. So explain your experience a little bit.
- [28:00]
C
I think going back to your decisions, I think there's a social element at the time as well, which is different now. If you had played Miami and Indian Wells the other way around, of course, you had been away for almost a month. Okay. As a young girl, away from your family, without smartphone, without FaceTime, without Zoom. So these tournament blocks were a lot longer and there was a social element from. Listen, I want to go back to my family. Okay? So regardless of the, the, the, the, the green clay, I, I think you did want to go back to the red clay because it natural to you. And what actually in terms of the surface is different. I can understand that most of the Americans want to stay one more week in the States, in Charleston would have maybe more family around and so on and so on. But the sliding is completely different. For sure, you would have been sliding on the green clay as well. But when, when, for instance, and there's a big difference. The, the red clay, I think, in my opinion, is more weather sensitive as well. So you play in Rome, you know, where it's really hot and dry and it becomes like really dusty and very, very slippery. You've got, you've got Roland Garros where they dry out the clay. They put this white stuff on there to really dry. But then you play in Hamburg on clay which is like very humid and is a lot slower. So as different, the weather influences the red clay a lot more. And I think like anything, it's like playing outdoors and indoors. Learning how to play with wind, you know, is very important for young players because you need to learn how to adjust. If you've never played with wind, you cannot adjust with wind from the side, wind, wind from behind. And it's the same with clay. You need to, I think the more variety of red clay you've experienced in hot countries and in Paris, I think the better it is. And the green clay, I think it's less. It's, you know, it's not the same substance. You know, one is we. We call it in Belgium, it's like bricks. It's like crushed bricks. And in general, the, the, the top layer is a lot finer, a lot thinner than the green where the, the underneath they've got a top layer to slide on the green clay, but underneath. Have you ever slit, how you say that? Slit or had been sliding on the green clay, where your shoe goes almost into the thing you underneath, it's very, very hard. Whereas on the. On the thing, if it rains on the red clay, you can take a chunk out. Like it's so soft and you have to repair it with your feet and stuff like that to. To make. So it's softer. The grit is the same, so you have to be more patient. The grip on the. On the ball makes the top spin. If it's a little bit drier, jump up really high. It is. It is different. And the results, to be honest. To be honest, show it, right? The people, the really. The hardcore people. Pete Sampras, you know, we're going. In your era now. Pete Sampras, Lindsay Davenport and all these players, they simply were not that successful on the red claim.
- [31:16]
A
Just to explain, like, my relationship with Carl, we had this deal whenever we were on a trip and it started in Florida for the. Eddie her and, you know, all the tournaments, the Orange bowl and Eddie her and stuff was. We would rent a car when we got to Florida. And on our way to the matches, I was allowed. We had different taste of music. I was a huge fan of the Backstreet Boys, which, by the way, they're making a comeback. Carl, I don't know if you've noticed, they sold out show after show at the Sphere in Las Vegas. And I can't wait to go.
- [31:50]
B
Are you going, Kim?
- [31:51]
A
I. I'm looking. I. I saw that they added some more shows, but it's over the summer, so I'm probably going to be in Europe, but I definitely want to go do that. But I have to find some people that actually were. You like them too? Yeah. So Carl did not like them at all. Carl was like Jimmy Morrison, like Jimi Hendrix, Van Morrison. Yeah, all this stuff. And now I actually really like the music. Like we. But that was our deal. On our way back to the hotel, he got to pick the music. And on our way to the matches, I was the one that was in charge.
- [32:28]
C
But there was one funny thing. This was a time of the tapes, right? So These were not CDs, these were cassettes. Yeah. And I remember one thing where cheeky as Kim is, she had put this silly Backstreet Boy tape back in. And I had a notice. So we're driving back and there's the Backstreet Boys again. And I'm like getting right. How can you do this? You know, we have a deal this, that and the other. So I chucked the cassette out and what's Playing on the radio. The Backstreet Boys. I had a double whammy of this stuff.
- [33:01]
A
Yeah, listen, on that trip too, that was, I think, one of the first times that you drove an automatic car. Do you remember that?
- [33:09]
C
If it's gonna say I don't, I don't.
- [33:12]
A
You pulled the brake or you did
- [33:15]
B
something where the emergency break instead of the clutch. Oh, my gosh.
- [33:19]
A
You don't remember that?
- [33:20]
C
I can't remember that. No, I don't remember. In the middle of the highway. Amazing.
- [33:26]
A
But that's how we used to kind of live. Like just drive all over Europe, go to these tournaments and. And we did a fun trip to Luxembourg. That.
- [33:35]
C
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's. Here's another one. But it was a little bit. I mean, you look at the teams, even at you, for young players, this, the team of expertise and this interdisciplinary approach that that is now with, which is making youth development so much more better because there's more expertise. But it was literally a one man band. Sometimes, you know, I drove around with my little car and then, you know, Kim was with me sometimes. Parents came and watched. But, you know, I was saying, you know, what time to go to bed, make up your bet. You know, I gave Ken points for making it even if the, even if the cleaning lady was. Was coming in the hotel, you know, just to get some routines, what to eat, what to, you know, all these type of very simple rules. And then it goes together with giving some responsibility. Like I gave Kim the responsibility before satnav to go to a tournament, which is like ways.
- [34:28]
A
Ways at that.
- [34:29]
C
It's like, like Waze GPS system. Yes, yes. And so she had this map, this roadmap where she had to sort of guide me.
- [34:36]
A
And I knew a real paper map, right? Like.
- [34:39]
C
Yeah, yeah. So I knew more or less where we were going, but not the exact details. We assume Luxembourg, tiny little country next to Belgium. And so we had to go to Ash Sur Alzette, you know, sorry for my pronunciation, it's French. But we have to go. Yeah, yeah, still here, still with my map going, you know, then this, this exit there, there. And at one point we end up in a little village. And I'm telling there's no more than 40 houses in that thing. There's like, like a little church, a little chapel. There is nowhere a tennis court to be seen.
- [35:14]
A
But it was called to be.
- [35:17]
C
Yeah, no, it was called. It was called Ash. I think not. So it was very similar. But, you know, I, you know, I gave Kim the responsibility, but her directions on the tennis court were better. They were better.
- [35:31]
A
So we were two hours away from where we were supposed to be.
- [35:34]
C
Hours.
- [35:35]
A
Two hours. Or an hour and a half or something like that.
- [35:37]
C
Yeah.
- [35:38]
A
Oh, my gosh.
- [35:39]
B
But that. That's so interesting, though, because before we came on Today, Kim and I were talking about how Francis Tiafo in Houston was talking about his coach, Mark Kovacs, who came in and sort of instituted team rules, and one of them was a fine for being late. And I finally got to ask Francis, like, how much. How much are we talking? And do you still have money left? Because anyone who knows Francis knows that the guy has never been on of top time in his life. And I mean, he's barely on time to, like, get out to the court for the matches. Like, the number of times they've told me in my ear, we got a player in the bathroom. It's always Francis. But. But hearing, you know, that's he's late
- [36:18]
A
or maybe he has, like, a stomach issue before.
- [36:21]
B
Unclear. We can. We need to get him on the pod and we can ask him directly. But, you know, that $100 fine for being late to a practice or to, you know, the team breakfast or whatever it is, just having sort of those team parameters seems like an important piece of having sort of the team dynamic and then also being a good coach.
- [36:43]
C
Yeah, I'm not particularly good at that.
- [36:48]
A
I just. I told Vera I probably would have had no monthly fee left.
- [36:52]
C
That was that. Yeah, Yeah. I would have lost a lot of money. I tried to praise myself that I'm always doing something useful when I am late or the reason why I'm late, but, no, that's time management. It's, you know, I'm just doing too many things at the same time. And, yeah, it's not one of my four days.
- [37:12]
B
I have to say, well, whatever it is, whether it's. Whether we're finding people for being late or, you know, making Kim use a map, just having those little things, I feel like that's really important.
- [37:23]
C
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [37:23]
A
It's the responsibilities, right, that we.
- [37:25]
C
Yeah, yeah.
- [37:26]
A
But it just shows, like, the impact that coaches have. And I realize, like, the older I get, I realized more than anything, like, how lucky I have been to be surrounded by. Carl was very young, let me tell you. All the junior girls from the other, like, countries were like, oh, my God. Your coach, because you were so young,
- [37:44]
B
they were like, really?
- [37:44]
A
He's so handsome. Oh, my God, you're so lucky. I was like, what?
- [37:48]
C
Like, Carl, we're recording this right this is recorded, right?
- [37:52]
A
Oh my gosh, you have no idea. Like they were all like, we're like, oh my God, rolling our eyes and like, you know, like, oh my God, he's so strict and like.
- [38:01]
C
But talking about strict. Yeah, yeah. I, I, can I, can I tell this, Kim about your doubles tournaments in Mar. With Sophie Bon in a, in a thing. Yeah, can I, can I? Yes.
- [38:15]
A
I don't care. You've told it plenty of times before.
- [38:18]
C
Like it's. So Kim and Sophie are playing a, a doubles match in a Quite good under 16 international tournamen and not too far from Belgium. And they, you know, with the coaches we had, you know, this is, this is one line on an anecdote on the coaching, the coaching industry or the coaching colleagues or colleagues. Coaches at the junior level is so much nicer because you're working with juniors and you're trying to do the right thing and there's not the same of rivalry as on the, as on the professional tour. All my relations that I have from those junior days because we would have a drink in the bar and one coach would be assigned to sort of go in the corridors and just see that the, that the kids are not making a, you know, throwing a party or whatever. And so anyway, anyway, so there's this, it's my turn to sort of do the roving on the corridors and I, it's, I don't know what time. Nine o' clock or something. I go in a thing, I hear a boy's, boy's voice in the room
- [39:28]
A
with Sophie and Kim. We were in one room, Sophie and
- [39:31]
C
Kim, she was, Sophie was a couple years older. And I said, you know what, it's nine o', clock, I'm gonna go back, you know, joined joint, joined the rest of the team downstairs. Had a few sips and I went back up. 9:30. Still that, still that, that voice. 10 o'. Clock. And so I don't know what time.
- [39:52]
A
Eventually that time was like 9:30 or 10:00'. Clock.
- [39:55]
C
Like, yeah, quiets off like the next morning in breakfast, I'm sort of saying, hey girls, you sleep well? Yeah, yeah, not so good. Yeah. But eventually went to sleep. I said, well, what time did he go? Yeah, 9:30, lights out. But then we couldn't sleep straight away. And so, and I'm like asking all these questions and both Kim and Sophie, they are digging a hole so deep, you know, until I of course said, listen, I was at your door at 9, I was there at 9:30, I was there at 10. And slowly, you Saw them getting so cha. And sort of go like, oh my goodness, what have we just done? Yeah. And then you did a lot of sit ups then, Kim.
- [40:39]
A
No, you made us run in that square.
- [40:41]
C
Yeah, yeah. You had to sort of run and chase each other and stuff like that. Anyway, so sometimes I was strict, sometimes not always.
- [40:50]
B
But you also though allowed some fun. Right? There was a, there was shopping that you promoted. You promoted a shopping trip at one point.
- [40:58]
C
Yeah, yeah, yes, yes. Yeah, the shopping, the shopping story. Yeah. But Kim doesn't spend a lot of money on shopping because she didn't have any money at one point, you know, she'd spent all her money. This is before the mobile phone.
- [41:14]
A
So this is where your parents would give you allowance, right, like to take like, here's money, like to pay for your stringing or whatever we had to do, like. Yeah. So usually I would give it all to Carl knowing that it could have been gone by day three of the. Of the week.
- [41:29]
C
But on this occasion, Kim kept the money and when I paid the final bill, this was the orange ball or Eddie her or something. So under, under 18 or. No, I think under 16 or 14. And we, we went shopping, but Kim didn't come back with anything and her friend at the time had bought some stuff. And I thought Kim was really sensible, you know, not spending all her money until I paid the hotel bill. And I saw that somebody had had a huge phone bill to Belgium and then tried to cover it up by paying with the cash money, trying to get it off the bill, but it was still there. I don't know.
- [42:08]
A
You have to pay with the hot. You know, you have to pay for the hotel phone.
- [42:15]
B
Who were you calling, Kim?
- [42:16]
A
That was a boyfriend I had at the time in Belgium. Amazing.
- [42:21]
C
Yes. Was that the same boyfriend? Because you mentioned early some, some memory from Roland Garros that got me on the red list on the. Or on the blacklist.
- [42:32]
A
That was the same.
- [42:34]
C
That was him. Right, so, Glenn, this is what, I'll
- [42:38]
A
start telling some stories.
- [42:39]
C
Yes, yes,
- [42:42]
A
go for it.
- [42:43]
C
I think our time's up now. No, time's up.
- [42:47]
B
Wait, I have to know this one.
- [42:49]
C
Right, so this is what happens. So this boyfriend, Michael, I can't remember his name, comes to the French Open, Michel. And he wants to have a peek into Santa Court. Philip Chatrier. And so. But he doesn't have the, the accreditation. And I give him my accreditation. So he can actually have a. He gets caught. Right. So the accreditation gets confiscated. And so I can explain it right there. And then I said Listen, sorry, this was just. It's an innocent young boy. Just wanted to have a thing anyway. That is fine. The next year, I go to Roland Garros. They don't want to give me an accreditation, and I have to go all the process through underneath Philip Chaprier to the security guys, because they type in my name and literally it comes in with a big red cross. Because the year before, I'd given this accreditation.
- [43:43]
A
Yeah. Yes, this was a. I mean, a boyfriend. I mean, yes, I liked him, and. But it was very early on, like, in my. You know, one of my first, like, kisses that I had with a boy. And. And. But nothing. Yeah. Good times. I can't believe my parents let me go. Like, did, like, let me do all that stuff. Right. Like, I guess in Europe, it's. It's. We were a lot more free.
- [44:07]
C
It was fairly. Yeah, I thought it was fairly young. I think it must have been 16 or 17.
- [44:11]
A
No, I was already dating Latent. Yeah, 17, so.
- [44:15]
C
Yeah.
- [44:16]
A
Yeah, it was a kid from school, like, anyway.
- [44:21]
C
Tennis.
- [44:22]
A
Yeah.
- [44:22]
B
Yeah.
- [44:23]
A
Why are we there?
- [44:25]
B
We're gonna have more stories. But before. Before we move on from sort of our opening topic, which technically we are still on, there was something you said, Carl, that I want to follow up on, and it was talking about the stats. And I know Golden Set is a very popular one, a service that a lot of players pay for, but Kim has said multiple times on the podcast that she was, like, not a stats person. She was more of a feel person and sort of a problem solver when she was out on the court. So as a coach, I mean, I think every player is different in how they process and how much information they want and how much they need, because maybe sometimes you need more than you think that you do. So how do you take all the information that's available today and use that in the best way possible? Depending on the player.
- [45:09]
C
Your last part of the sentence is absolutely crucial. Depending on the player. So I'm currently helping out. The young British player mimics you a little bit. And this is still finding out how much information they can digest. Because if we go back to Kim's career and you have somebody like Kim and Justine, they were two complete opposites, not just in playing style, but also in how they processed information. You know, for Kim was a lot more intuitive. You know, play. You know, I had to sort of create the right environment for her then to find out herself what works and what doesn't work. Whereas with Justine, I would have to explain that. That. But for instance, you know, with Kim, I would do, you know, you do a half court against a full court exercise in order to create a more an attacking situation. The person that's on the half court versus defending situation on the full court. I didn't have to explain that too much. Whereas with somebody like, like Justine, you know, I would explain this. You. We would stay on a full court. But I would sort of talk more about the different options and choices because she would process in a different way now what is available. I mean, would Kim have been able to. To process all of that with all the stats? I. I don't know. I don't know. But this is a new generation that is playing now. They've grown up with smartphones. They, you know, they, you know, I look at my youngest son, you know, he's got, he's got a computer screen in front of him, then an iPad and then a phone. So. And he's. He swipes and things like that. They can digest so much information. So I think it's a new generation of people that I call it the swipe generation. And then there's the individual differences. So I think you need to be really careful what you get from Golden Set from those guys. Like 30 pages. What I like to do, I know they offer the service with the Full Monty where they, through AI and some manual tagging, they give you their advice. I just get all the raw data because I like to spend and you know, with. With Bianca Andreescu or with Tamara and now with Mimi, I would easily spend two hours, two and a half hours looking at these stats and then going on to the video platform, selecting a few video clips and then presenting that to the player in. In five minutes or in 10 minutes or in 15 minutes. And that, you know, you need to find out a little bit. But yeah, Kim, you know, is an intuitive player. But, you know, I think in 2012, I think when you played against Wozniaki, we worked together with, with Oven, because this was very early days. You know, I've. I always like, whether it's with the Hawkeye and Kim's Academy or whatever, I'm always looking at staying ahead and getting the edge. But in 2012, I remember this was very complicated for Owen because I asked Owen, he's a Norwegian data analyst also for Kaspartens and he works for Eurosport and so on, and I asked him, give me 10 rallies where Wozniaki is in trouble, where she gets jammed into the forehand, not the running forehand, which is, which is a really good shot. She likes to run, but the way she gets jammed in, I mean for oven to produce that video clip of 10 simple clips, that was like, that was so difficult at the time. And then sending that over to Australia, it was like really hard work. Whereas now Golden Set analytics provides that in a very easy way. I love doing it. I love doing the job also in the background and just presenting my ideas. So it would have been interesting, Kim, if you would have grown up in this era with all this technology, how you would have actually have that integrated. I don't have the answer as well as I know, Kim.
- [49:05]
A
I don't know, but it's what you said before. I do feel like we were steps ahead at times, even when we didn't have the analytics yet. Like, I remember, you know, when we were working together at the Federation and you wanted to show me, you know, footwork of an inside out four. And like I was a very visual learner. So he had this either this little camera and he would hook it up to the back of the, of the court where we have these like wooden, you know, they look like little closets and they would have like a big TV in it, right. Like remember that? And then he would just hook it up and he would show me step Steffi's right, Like how she ran around and went for that and just that footwork. And to me that made things so much easier to try and copy. So I was definitely like a visual learner. One handed back in volleys. Like I remember just trying like practicing and doing that and just seeing it on a video. So I do think we were ahead already. Right? Like it was just not with how it is now. But, but like Carl would like cut out sheets and you know, put.
- [50:07]
C
My grandmother made those. My grandmother stitched those or whatever or.
- [50:11]
A
Yeah, they had different patterns on them and it was like now they talk about the zones and like that was the zones. And if we had to practice like our, like what do you call it on the consistency, right, like it was. Carl would put up the net, but he also would put the sheets in the back and say, okay, when you hit in the, in the furthest closest to the baseline, you get three points or whatever it was five points and that's how we had to get to a hundred. And then, you know, drills like that. Like it was just for that visual. And, and that's I think why I feel the, the ball or when I play I think about that. Like I still think like, oh, it's bouncing a little short. All right, I gotta Just like slide my arm or just guide my arm a little bit longer through the ball to get a little more depth on it. And. And so there's little like brain, you know, I don't know. It just stays in there. And I do think it has a lot to do with that. And then it was just funny. Like Car would fold the sheet. He had one for the service boxes, for the kick serve, the deeper kick serve, the shorter one out wide, the slice. And it made it fun. Like, I think that's. At the end of the day, it just made it fun as well. And there was always a little bit of a competitiveness to it as well, where, you know, try to get these points or you had somebody next to you who was trying to get to 20 or 50 first, like it was. There were so many. I remember he made us because he also coached Wim Fiset and I, so I remember you made us hit a rally.
- [51:40]
C
Oh, 17 minutes.
- [51:42]
A
17 minutes with one ball.
- [51:44]
C
17 minutes with one ball. I would start the session and say, listen, I've got good news and I've got bad news. And the good news was it's a brand new ball.
- [51:53]
A
There's only one.
- [51:53]
C
There's only one. There's only one, right? 17 minutes. They rallied without missing. That bowl is completely roasted. You know, you can throw it in a bit. It's completely, it's completely gone. But talking about these, these little blankets which my, my grandmother effectively made in different colors. And Xavier Malice, he's sort of like a semi American, right? As well. He has. He had the highest record player of serving. And this was not. This was the T serve, right? So that has to be from the new side. The T serve that, that requires a lot of precision. And you had three points, two points and one point. If you just poop it in, it's one point. But then the other one was two and three. And the target for three was really, really small. He had when out of 10 balls, they got 10 balls, and he has 29 out of 30 points, which means nine times in zone three. And once in zone, that is like. And you know, he hadn't moved, so he moved to the States when he was 16. So this is when he was like 15 or 16 or whatever. That precision on his serve was immense. But it makes it measurable. And now we have the tools. Now we have golden set analytics and wingfield and all these, these court analytics systems. I think they make it more fun, they make it more measurable.
- [53:17]
A
It is. But for the player, like, they can't tell, right. Like, you can. The computer measures it. But a player, if I want to serve now and I, I see the, let's say the. The red zone to serve down the tea, that's three points. Like, I don't see that it's. The computer can measure it and count it up for you. But. So for me, the visual was always super important, like aiming for targets or cans, like on the serve. Like, I would visualize even in a match, like, I would visualize. Visualize the cans being there and, and just like, you know, and it just became kind of like, you know, being on cruise control. Like, you. You just get like a natural instinct and feel for it. I remember a few years ago, Juan Carlos Ferrero talked in an interview and he said, like, I don't. I don't want to bring any data or analytics to, to Alcaraz yet because, you know, I just want him to learn to understand the game. I want him to read his opponent. I want him to read what it's like to play Novak and he break point down or like. So there is a fine balance, I think, in our sport where, because we are only out there by ourselves, like, you still like analytics or stats at the time, they matter, but they don't. They're not going to have a huge impact if you can't read your opponent or you can't absorb what's happening on the court. Right. And so I almost always a little bit worried, like, I think the coaches these days have a very important role, especially in that age group where, you know, 14, 15, 16, I think where it is so important to let the players also figure it out for themselves and being able to read the matches and read their opponents and going to watch their opponents not just from a screen or, you know, or the numbers. So I think that's a coach's responsibility. And there's so much data out there that I would feel overwhelmed, like, if I would learn everything, like, like, so you're right.
- [55:17]
C
You're right. I think it was Jack Groble at the time. You know, he's like an institute in tennis history and research. And so I think the quote was from him that too much biomechanics, because tennis, let's say 20, 30 years ago, it was more labeled as a technical sport. And he used his phrase, paralysis by analysis. You know, you can really freeze if you start to think too much, how you have to hit a shot. You know, it's paralysis by analysis. But the same goes now, a few decades later on the tactical side. You Know that can also be paralysis by analysis because you can give so much data that they don't know, you know, what. What to do anymore, you know, and how to. Then. And now coaching is allowed. But how much. How much information do you share with the player? So I had a funny one in. In Australia where, in terms of stats that were available, I said to. To the player, to. To Mimi, and I hope she doesn't mind sharing this. It's. It's not. Not a huge thing. But I said, listen, make one unforced error less per game. She'd lost the set. 6. 3. But it was a really good set. And the difference was, for me, one unforced error per game. And that would have turned the. The scoreboard around, but that got her thinking too much, you know, and she. She much rather would have been told, listen, hit your back and more down the line. She could have coped with that. But one unforcedess. When. When on my return on, you know, and so you have to be really good with your player knowing what they can cope with, what they understand, you know, and.
- [56:59]
A
And your communication skills. Right, like, are so important to teach these kids. Like, I. I feel like there were times where one word could have brought me back to an exercise that we did, you know, when we were in our preseason and what we were working on and. And like, you know, you get so accustomed to each other. And so, yeah, that's a lot of times I feel like coaches like to talk and say too much and. And, yeah, whereas I feel like I think Carl was really good at just, you know, he could talk, too, but wait for the right time. And knowing there was always a couple of words that we would use that would bring me back to, like, okay, I need to be a little bit more patient or, you know, stand a little bit closer to the baseline or whatever. There would, like, be little signs or things that we would do. And so they were just. Yeah, just important. Like, again, like, I say this over and over again. Like, I realize how important that has been to build a strong foundation for my tennis brain. Like, it's that simple.
- [57:58]
C
Is that also because you. You are a mother now of kids that grow up and that you sometimes need to sort of keep things simple
- [58:07]
A
and maybe, yeah, maybe also by watching more tennis and listening more to tennis and, you know, listening about to, let's say, Sabalenka who, you know, decides to take, you know, breaks in between certain, you know, changing surfaces or after the Australian Open. And, like, I feel like those were things that we did as well. Like, it was so important to. To have, like, training blocks throughout the year. Right. And. And so, like, I just pick things up. I'm like, yeah, like, and then I just reflect on, you know, how. How we approach things for a long time, and I just think, yeah, there's so many things like that that I hear or where I realize, especially when we talk about the analytics and the good mist. You had good mistakes and bad mistakes. Right.
- [58:50]
B
Like.
- [58:50]
A
Like when you learn that from a young age. Yeah. You look. Like a lot of times you can get so into your head where a mistake feels like a mistake and they're all just as bad. And. But then when you are able to kind of dissect it like that, whereas. Okay, like, I actually, you know, it was a good mistake. Like, I went for it. And so, yeah, there's so many things. I'm sure parenting does. Does the same thing as well, but it's also just listening to a lot of people and commentators on TV and players right. In their press conferences and, like, Blair and I talking, like, it just makes me think Dennis all the time.
- [59:27]
C
Yeah. Yeah.
- [59:29]
A
Well, Carl, thank you so much. This went the way that I expected it to go, where I feel like we could have definitely talked for way longer. And we still have topics that we wanted to address. But let's. Yeah. See if you would like to come back. We would love to have you back on in the future and. And share. And I like the idea of the wwcd. What would Carl do? Or s. What would Carl say? Wwcs.
- [59:58]
C
Yeah, it's an interesting one. Not. Not related to me, but I. I think that it's a cool idea because there's so many topics that you talk about, and you can make it a quick. Did you say Blair? It's like a quick question so you can have, like, five. Five different perspectives. Same. Same question, and you ask five different people very quickly. Boom, boom, boom. What does so and so say? What is that cool? I think it could be cool.
- [60:22]
B
You're hired. Carl, you're our new associate producer. Add it to your list of, like, 27 things on your resume. Maybe 77.
- [60:31]
A
Talk to Sean.
- [60:32]
C
All right. It was fun. It went really quick. It was fun. Yeah, it was really, really fun. Good. Good catching up.
- [60:38]
B
Thanks again, Carl.
- [60:39]
A
All right, bye.
- [60:43]
B
Well, that was so fun. And again, we. We just.
- [60:47]
A
Weird. Yes.
- [60:48]
B
We. We knew that we were going to have to be like, all right, at some point, we have to stop talking. But that was a great time. We can't wait to have Carl back. We're taking suggestions for segment names. Ask Carl WW CD Questions to Carl Questions to Carl. Send in your suggestions for us, but again, new EP episodes from us at Love all every Wednesday. Make sure to like and subscribe on YouTube. Please follow us on all of our social media channels. Ovall Podcast we'll see you next week.
- [61:17]
A
Thanks, Blair. Here we go.
- [61:29]
B
Two Good and Co Coffee Creamers are made with farm fresh cream, real milk and contain 3 grams of sugar per serving. That's 40% less than the 5 grams per serving in leading traditional coffee creamers for a rich, delicious experience. Whether you enjoy your coffee hot, cold, bold or frothy, two good coffee creamers make every sip a good one. Two good coffee creamers. Real goodness in every sip. Find them at your local Kroger in the creamer aisle.
- [61:57]
A
You go to Hawaii in your head
- [61:58]
B
all the time, but when you're actually ready to go, there's Expedia, flights, hotels, vacation homes, cars. Save more when you bundle so you can stop dreaming and start saving. Expedia, the one place you go to go places. Members only. Savings vary.