Andy Roddick (2:55)

She was chopping people to like, if there's no place for someone hitting forehand slices anymore on, on tours and the game is going fast the other way, right? You barely see people chipping at all. She was chopping people this week. Like you watch some of the highlights. Forehand slices, backhand slices, little Ch Magoo and rush to the. It was, it was fun to see variants, right? If this isn't like a suggestion that we should include all surfaces and fast slow grass clay so that we can include different people who are still deploying the confuse and conquer method. Like this was, this was really fun watching her on top of, you know, being 37, on top of being a mother of two. Just stylistically it was, it was fun to watch. And that's kind of what grass presents.

JW (3:41)

She, she beat Robakina too. I mean, these were good wins. This is a, this is a quality grass player. I mean this is someone who is a Wimbledon tummy finals a few years ago. I also, I think we should draw a distinction. Tell me what you think of this about someone who has kids. Hey, it's the mother. It's a neat stat. And someone whose kids are old enough to appreciate what mom is doing. It wasn't like the kids were in the nursery while she was playing. They were sitting there courtside watching their mom try coaching and. Yeah, coaching, exactly. She had a great item. She said she had a bunch of these sort of anything you could set your mind to and limitations are there to be surrounded. And then she said, and we're all going to eat some crap with Nutella. But I mean, I think the same thing when I see Novak. I think there's a big difference between simply having children and having children who can appreciate what their parent is achieving. And it was really nice to see. And I think she lost in the first round of Roland Garros to Krajikova and sort of went quietly, but put her on grass. And Tatiana Maria is a completely different player. Watch for her at Wimbledon.

Andy Roddick (4:43)

Well, I'll tell you, this like grass maybe more than any other surface just because we see it less. And it was, it for me, it was the case. Everything I did well was stunted by clay. Like every, every single thing I did well was 20% and that might be giving myself credit. Worse on clay. As soon as I stepped on grass, like that train ride where you go the underground and come up the other side and there's grass waiting for you, is my favorite day of the year. Every year instantly better. But I was talking with, I was on a golf trip with Roger six weeks ago or something like that, and we were just talking about it and I was trying to tell him how bad I would have been at having kids on tour. I remember he used to say like the, you know, the blue Ash Hyatt place. Hashtag, not a sponsor with all of his kids in the same room. And that's when they're young. I go, I can't even handle that in day to day life without having to play the finals of Cincinnati. So props to the parents. It, it's, it's hard without juggling the mess of time zones and tours and everything else. So. What a, what a sup superhuman week from, from Ty. It was just fantastic tennis. I love seeing it at Queens Club. It's my favorite. So props to her. Just chopping fools. What else we got, Mike?

Mike (6:01)

The women's British number one overall, Emma Radicanu withdrew from the Berlin Open citing lingering bash back issues. She said, I'm not overly concerned that the back issue is something serious. Any concerns for you guys on this or is it just smart scheduling ahead of Wimbledon or.

Andy Roddick (6:19)

Neither. You know, I, I don't know. I kind of say this sensitively when I hear this. I think it's just her thing. Like some people, I think have to be. Feel perfect to go right. And some people can have a sore back and choose to go. The way Emma's mind works, when it's right, it's, it's, it's fantastic. But it, and there's no, there's no right or wrong way because I was the other way. Like I was trying to come back too early from like, you know, hamstring injury where you get, you know, something done, treatment done. And they say four to six weeks and you're. I'm trying to back. Be back in two or three weeks, therefore I'm ruining it for the next three months. Like I did that my last year on tour. So it's not to say she's wrong. It just these types of stories don't surprise me anymore. And I think she just needs to feel physically almost perfect to, to, to have A go of it. What do you, what do you think?

JW (7:17)

JW Yeah, I think context and given her track record, not especially surprising. And I think she is nothing if not a realist. You're the number one British player. You're now in the top 40. I mean it's, it's possible she could be seated and you have a lot of attention, Crassley. You probably have a lot of bonuses that are triggered with good performances at Wimbledon. A lot of expectation. I suppose it's not surprising that she would want to go in feeling a full 100%. But she's, you know, it's nothing like, I mean this is a major champion. She's obviously hasn't come close to replicating that. But she's had sort of a sneaky good year back in the top 40. She's won like 15 matches and always, always a dangerous player, good competitor. It does seem to be par for the course for her that if things are not 100%, she ain't playing. So I wouldn't read too much into this.

Andy Roddick (8:07)

Well, let's level set outside of one tournament, this is her best year so far consistently. Right. She's playing every week, she's winning matches every week. Mike, let's roll through this because I think our guest for the week, which we are pumped about, I can't wait to hear his thoughts on the masterpiece we watched Sunday a week ago. Darren Cahill is going to be our guest today. I cannot wait for his wisdom. But Mike, let's, let's get through these headlines so we can get to the, the Cahill.

Mike (8:37)

Yeah, just a couple more in Stugart, Taylor Fritz claimed the title, his first title of the year, in straight sets over Alexander Zverev, moving Fritz up to world number four heading into Wimbledon. With the addition of Ben Shelton over the weekend as well into the top 10. It marks for the first time since 2006 that three American men are in the ATP top 10. Going back to Agassi, James Blake and you, Mr. Andy Roddick.

Andy Roddick (9:04)

Yeah, Fritz is. Don't sleep on Taylor. Fritz on grass. I want to say I'll get this slightly wrong, but if I'm not perfect, you get the gist of it. I think he's won seven or eight times on tour and four of them have been on grass. You know, he was a couple of points away from the semis where he would have played Kyrgios. He beats Verev in a, in a pretty dramatic five setter last year. And then I was at the time, I was shocked by the Loss to Musetti. And Musetti has basically built on that and made it normal for him to be at the tail end of tournaments. But no surprises. Taylor's. Taylor needs this shift of grass. He would probably tell you, I feel like I'm playing well, but I haven't quite hit that results metric. You know, the results that I'm used to. And props to Ben, if he can figure out that serve on grass, it is just a nightmare. Look to him, start running. I'd like to see him jam people more on body, on this surface and kind of make them go like T Rex returners where you can't extend your arms sometimes and then it opens up the other ones. But no surprise here with, you know, TP playing great and Taylor, you know, the run of the US Open final last year, Ben has been kind of a really consistent build. He's not taking, you know, you would see him have big result and then not play well for two months and then big result. It seems like he's finding that, that steady cadence and consistently winning matches that he's supposed to win, which is a big, big deal. I'm not saying that dismissively. That is like that. That's the next step for him. And it seems like he's, he's hot on that trail.

JW (10:30)

New management as well for Ben Sheldon. That came out last week. Nice poach by WME IMG and Taylor, yeah, he, he has been very sort of stoic and macho about it in a good way, but he has not been 100% physically. So for him to start winning titles, he's kind of remember the Kobe, remember the Kobe stopper. Remember Ruben Patterson. Fritz is kind of the Zverev stopper. He's really got Zverev's number. Beat him. As you said at Wimbledon last year. I think this is a really good sign. And what you said, if he can get that four seed where you are guaranteed not to play a higher ranked opponent until the semis, 4 versus 5 is a big deal. Draper, he and Draper are sort of battling for that position. Keep an eye on that. But no, this is a much needed piece. Already said sort of we're off clay. So Taylor Fritz kind of hit a reset on 20, 25.

Andy Roddick (11:15)

Yeah. And Taylor Fritz going into Wimbledon as the number four seed is a lot different than Taylor Fritz going into the French Open as the number four seed where we're just guessing on an entire bracket. You know that that's not the case. Taylor is legit good on grass. He could easily be in the, the, the Last weekend of, of Wimbledon. Mike, anything else are we breaking before we get the Darren Cahill on the other side?

Mike (11:37)

Last one is just even in the loss. Yannick Sinner retained The world number one ranking now for 54 consecutive weeks surpassing Novak Djokovic's reign of the 53 weeks. Only three players in ATP ATP history have had longer first stints at world number one. Roger Federer 237 weeks. Jimmy Connors 160 and Leighton Hewitt at 75.

Andy Roddick (12:00)

Yeah, I mean they're just, he's just so good and so consistent. I mean coming off of. And we'll get into this with Darren, we don't waste too much of our own opinion on him. We can we just ask his coach. But three months off finals, Rome finals, Roland Garros and I mean just a heartbreaking loss but it's hard to say like your respect grows from seeing him come back and just re establish himself at the top of the game. He's not going anywhere. He's like an algorithm to me. Like you input, output. I mean he's just. And by the way, like the speech, I said it in our last last week's episode but it felt so genuine and also so classy. It made me feel worse about myself. Like he just handled that devastating moment with such class. Not surprising. And that that's going to grow. And as great as CAR is, he's still a little bit more of a heart rate monitor than, than, than Yannick Sitter, right? His, his, his best is like some like nothing we've seen. Crazy, you know, combination of all these skill sets, of all these monsters. But Yannick is there every single week and it's just, it's just so impressive and it's like here we go again with these two, right? We thought we were going to get a break and you know some random schmucks like me might sneak through and steal one but these guys feels like they're going to be greedy for a long time. We'll be back on served after the break with Darren Cahill.

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Andy Roddick (15:30)

All right, everyone, welcome back to Served. A guest that I have A fun part of this show for me is having an excuse to pick the brains of of people in tennis that I've long respected. But it's kind of weird if you see him in the players lounge and you just corner them and say, give me 12 minutes of your time. It's a little easier when people are listening also. But coming off of I know we all are waiting on his thoughts for the masterpiece of a match that Carlos and Jannik played a Sunday ago. And that's before we get into, you know, his career as a player and all the coach, all the people that he's coached and it's just amazing. And I'm thankful for his time. You know, there's no rest in tennis. So he's right back at it. I think he's in Holly. But Darren Cahill, welcome to Served.

Darren Cahill (16:19)

Thank you guys and thank you for having me on.

Andy Roddick (16:21)

Absolutely. You're manifesting a little bit with that background center court at Wimbledon. You're looking ahead already.

Darren Cahill (16:27)

I was saying a couple of years of COVID trying to get a little bit creative with the backgrounds and trying to spice things up a little bit. So, yeah, this is one of them. I figure also with Wimbledon coming around in about 10 days time, what a better background to have. So it is the holy grail tennis. So you never get sick of looking at that court. As you know, Andy, it's a incredible place to be able to walk on and experience firsthand and is for us anyway, it is the best experience in tennis.

Andy Roddick (16:52)

I sent. I had so many feelings watching the final between. Between Jannik and Carlos. One was. Was gratitude that in the vacuum of retirements of Serena and Roger and Rafa, and it's like, here we are again with these. With these rock stars who are responsible citizens and seem to have respect for, you know, the game and the people them. And. And then it's just. I feel like we skipped a step, right? Like, I feel like we went from one type of tennis to these monsters who are, you know, powerful and fast and consistent and they don't really make errors like we used to miss sometimes. Right.

JW (17:35)

Like what.

Andy Roddick (17:37)

What were your feelings before we get to kind of the emotion set of a result like these two are. They're kind of different, right?

Darren Cahill (17:47)

Yes, they are. No question about it. I struggle a little bit to start comparing them to what we've just had, because what we've just had, I think is the biggest domination that we've seen in tennis with Federer, Novak and Rafa. And so I think it's unfair on Carlos and Yannick especially to start saying these two guys are going to walk straight into the shoes of those three amazing players, the greatest of all time. So I don't want to put that pressure on these two guys at the moment. They're doing a great job. They know how big the shoes are. They have to feel they've got the benefit of being able to study these guys for the last 10 years, as they were juniors coming through the ranks and getting to their teenage years, they've been able to closely watch these guys and practice with them. I know Rafa took Sinner under his wing and spent a couple of weeks with him in Adelaide during the COVID years. And he got a chance to understand how Rafa goes about his business and how hard he trains. So these guys are coming in with an incredible education behind them. They know what it takes to get to a certain level. So they've got a head start on everybody. And I feel like what's happening at the moment is you've got that next year below and Zverab is still there, but then you can talk about Shelton and Rune, the likes of those players coming through and, and they are watching closely and they are doing things to try to bridge the gap. So I don't think you're going to have the runaway domination that we had for 15 years with three players, and then you throw in Andy Murray as well, and was an amazing player. So it was the Big Four for a certain period of time there. So we won't have that runaway domination. But at the moment, these two guys, they're trailblazing for a kind of a new style of tennis as well. As you said, these guys hit the ball so damn hard and they rarely miss. And they. The scary thing about it is when they're playing well, they're actually playing with margin, even though they hit the ball really hard. It's not that risky tennis. So they're making the really, really difficult look pretty simple at times. And that's what greatness is about. And so far, they're doing a wonderful job, both these guys.

Andy Roddick (19:49)

Yeah, I mean, the biggest thing about the, the comparisons to the Big Three and the Big Four is the length of time that they were able to sustain it. It's not a moment in time in a snapshot of two or three years or four years or even, even, you know, Andre would tell you he was, you know, he'd be in for 18 months, two years, and then it wouldn't be as good for two years and then he would kind of check back in and it wasn't, it wasn't this consistency and that. That's where the Big Three or. And you mentioned how hard they hit with margin. Darren. I was watching. I went down to watch Yannick courtside last year at the Open, and I hadn't really seen. I'd seen it kind of that bird's eye view that tells you nothing that we see on TV and that we see when we're. We're up high in a stadium. I was amazed at the height he was still able to generate. Hitting it as far as. Sorry. As hard as he. His margin over the net is. Stock shot is 3 or 4ft above and it's diving over the net like that's, it's. It's. To me, it's like I'm so happy that I don't have to deal with that anymore. But is that the biggest change you've seen from, let's say, you know, coaching, you know, Leighton, where the ball fright was pretty consistent. It was a flat. You kind of knew what to expect. Andre taking cuts. It's this Piercing ball flight. But when he, he had a different gear when he was kind of trying to take your legs away versus when he was kind of ramp it up, you know, and, and kind of that knockout punch, Yannick, it seems like he just comes out and just smothers you with that ball and you, you can feel his margin, I would guess, but it's, it's a safe shot.

Darren Cahill (21:19)

The two biggest things that have changed in especially men's tenants, but also throw women's tennis in there as well, is the technology has changed a lot. So you were probably at the end of your career when laps along came around, they started messing around with strings and racket technology and they were able to generate a lot more power these days. And, and with the string technology, they can hit the ball with more spin and once you hit the ball with more spin, you can take a bigger swing at the, at the ball and then you can open up more parts of the court as well. So you can make the court a lot bigger for yourself. But the physicality has improved a lot. So these guys with more years, more knowledge, more technology, more education, better coaching, better fitness trainers, better physios, the players now have bodies that they feel like, you know, if you're a 23 year old, probably you've got a 28, 29 physically ready body, whereas back in the day, 20, 30, 40 years ago, you didn't mature into your body until you were much later because of the fact we just didn't put the building blocks in place at the early ages. So we are training the players a lot better these days. More educated, especially in the physical training, way more educated in how to look after the body and make sure it recovers and you're able to come back out and do it again the next day. I know when I was playing, I would have three or four days of really hard training, then it would take me three or four days of rest just to recover. These guys don't need the rest these days because they're doing all the things that lets them come back and keep those building blocks and keep maturing and keep building a better body. So the physicality has really changed. The other big thing also is the sliding, especially on the hard course. We've seen it on the clay all the time, but these guys now don't care what surface you play on. They've incorporated sliding into all their shots. So the getting in and out of the corners are much more efficient than what they used to be. And gone pretty much are the days of the most elegant Player that I think's ever played on grass in, Roger Federer, who rarely slot slid on grass. He had those two little quick steps to slow down, and he'd put his full shoe on the ground, stop, then move the other way. These guys are just launching themselves into the corner on a full slide, making contact with the ball, and then in and out of that corner really fast. So the physicality has changed a lot. And the way to move around tennis court and certainly changed a lot as well.

Andy Roddick (23:38)

Is that a weird learning curve as a coach, when you see something that all of a sudden becomes normal, that's completely different than it was 10 years ago? I mean, that has to be like a. When someone first does it, you're like, well, okay, that's. That's unnecessary. And now it's like, oh, no, it's completely necessary.

Darren Cahill (23:54)

I would. Yannick just played a doubles match out here in Halle. He and Sonnegar just lost their double. So Yannick wanted to go out and play for another 30 minutes. So we went onto the practice court at the back here, and the first thing he wanted to work on was slid into the forehand, sliding into the open stance backhand on the grass to get used to it for his match tomorrow. Because that's the one thing that worries him the most, is timing the slides on the surface. Because on grass, it's an uneven surface. You don't know how long the slide's going to last. So he wants to get a feel for and get the confidence also to throw that left leg out for the open slide on the back end. So I'm feeding. I never did this 10, 15 years ago. So I'm feeding balls just out of reach for him. So he's doing open stance slide on the forehand, crushing forehands, and straight away out of that corner into an open stance slide on the back end to getting ready for tomorrow's match. So, yes, the coaching has changed a lot. I would never have done that 10 or 15 years ago, but now it's a must.

Andy Roddick (24:47)

Give us a profile of. Of Jannik, because like I see outside looking in, and it just. I have all the respect in the world for what you, what you all have accomplished, what he is now. But it like outside looking in, he just reeks of discipline like it seems like he is. If he has a bad day, we're not going to know, right? And he's going to be understated. But it feels like he just inside of this phenomenal athlete. It feels like he still has that lunch pail. Mentality a little bit and the ability to kind of have perspective even on, you know, what's going to be one of the most painful days of his career. Losing that match to Carlos, what he did in the aftermath and his ability to speak and it felt full of gratitude. But it kind of outside looking in, is it, is it as good as advertised as far as discipline? He almost seems like a, like a, like a robot or like a, like a piece of computer software or something.

Darren Cahill (25:46)

It is as good looking from the outside in as what it is from the inside. He's a good young man. I want to call him a kid because in a lot of ways he's still a young kid and he does teenage things and he, and he has a normal life away from the tennis court. But you know what he has, he has great self awareness. And I think for any great champion in any sport, you have to be self aware. So you have to know how to handle yourself, how important something is. To be able to deal with disappointment, to not carry on like a pork chop if you win a match, to not be an idiot if you lose a match. To have a way to deal with failure and success pretty much in the same way. Yes, you get a little bit excited if something great happens, but don't get too down if something bad happens. Try to learn from it and move on and get better. And, and he does all those things and then you have an incredible work ethic. He has wonderful resilience and that resilience will be tested after that match in Paris to how quickly he can move on. And it doesn't matter if he wins or loses his matches in the coming weeks. It's more about how you handle yourselves through those moments and you just keep pushing and keep pressing and he's willing to do that. And, and I think more than anything for these great champions, they have to have purpose. And he has a wonderful purpose as well. And he just loves the sport. He wants to get out there for the next 15 years. He's 23 years of age. He can see himself playing when he's 37, 38 years of age. And I don't know about you, but I couldn't do that when I was playing. You know, I was, I was trying to make it to the 30s and I didn't even give it that long in my career. But these guys have a different perspective now about how long a tennis career can be because of the legends that have just played it and extended their careers for so long and had so much success. So these Young players coming through are investing into their careers at an early age to make sure they get the longevity and with that they have great self awareness. I think Carlos has it as well. I think he's very aware of his surroundings, very aware of his success and his popularity. And Yannick is as well. And all at the same time he's able to keep his feet on the ground. So what you see from the outside, you know, we had a. We were so damn proud of him regardless of whether he won or lost that match. Obviously we wanted him to win that match and we were heartbroken for him not to win it. But you send a player onto the court, the one thing you ask for is for that player to give them everything you have. That's it as a coach, and he gave us more than that. So when you look at a tennis match, the way it was played, how good it was, how well those two guys competed, no toilet breaks, no physios, no trainers, no complaining, just, just pure five and a half hours of brilliant tennis business like tennis, great respect between the two players. You can't ask for anything more as a coach. So regardless of the result, I take my hat off to Carlos. He's an amazing young man. We have an incredible respect for him. But believe it or not, I've been with Janik for over three years now. I have more respect for him now after watching that match in the Roland Garrus final than I had before that. And that's pretty hard to say that because I know him pretty damn well. So for me, that was the biggest takeaway from that French Open final.

JW (28:54)

Can you say more there? If you're inclined to go there, take us inside the locker room. And I'm interested in what you said. That the fact that there is this self awareness there, I imagine that's another wrinkle you can't outwit. You can't sort of fool him into thinking this match was something that it wasn't. What was your message to him after witnessing that and after he came so close?

Darren Cahill (29:15)

We barely said anything, to be perfectly honest. After the match, clearly there was disappointment. He sat in the locker room for a good 15 or 20 minutes. Each one of us that's in his team came up and gave him a hug and we told him we were really proud of him, proud of his effort. But there's no real time, that's not the perfect time to give him a speech about what we can learn from it. We're going to move on from it. You have to show a little Bit of empathy for what he's going through. Sadness, a few tears, A few tears for everybody. But I got to say, later that night, a few hours later, he wasn't over it. He's never going to be over it. I think a match like that stays with you forever and you try to become better for it. But he has great perspective as to the importance of playing a tennis match compared to real life. And there's much more important things going on and certainly in his life there's going to be much more important things than winning or losing a tennis match. And I think that that's where the self awareness comes from, is that yes, it was disappointing, but it's just sport, it's just a tennis match. Go out there and have as much fun as you can and hopefully next time we can turn this around and we'll try to get better from this.

Andy Roddick (30:28)

I know as athletes we're trained, we have like our rational thoughts, you know, three months out or whatever it is. And then we become psychopaths somewhere along the way where we, we're constantly like resetting what a good result is. I mean, I gotta think four months ago before, you know, the, the three month suspension, someone tells you you come straight back in, in Rome, which is like a pressure cooker for, for an Italian. And they hadn't seen number one Yannick yet because he wasn't able to play last year. So this Yannick that we know now is different than the last time Rome saw him. You make a final there and then your body holds up over 5 hours and 40 minutes without actually having, you know, kick the tires too much over four months. Four months ago you go, outstanding. I'm sure in the postmortem of the match you're going, gosh, if it could have just been a little bit more.

Darren Cahill (31:20)

At some point. I did tell him, mate, if we going into Rome, because we were just hoping to win one or two matches in Rome where we had no idea what was going on. And we had early indications in the practice sessions because the practice. I won't get into too much detail, but finding practice partners in the practice sessions, leading in for the first couple of months during his ban were quite difficult to organize to get good players because everything had to be approved through the itia. Basically we had to hit, we were hitting at the. One of his sponsors, Labatsa, who's one of his sponsors near Monte Carlo. They had a backyard clay court, was really the only court that we could practice on. So they were kind enough to open up their doors and cook for us every day. That was the greatest thing of the two months, is that we had so much fun hitting at the Lavazza House and having dinner and lunches with the family, and they had chefs cooking for us and we had a ball for two months. But the tennis was sort of second priority. The physical training was the biggest priority. And then about four weeks before the Italian Open, then we can get serious with a lot of his playing and then start to play a lot more practice sets against better players and get an indication as to where he was going to be. And to be perfect, perfectly honest, a lot of these practice sets. We weren't overly confident going into Rome, so we were just hoping to win a couple of matches in Rome to find his match legs again, because you can do all the training in the world, but it's completely different to actually playing a match when you've got those nerves and the anxieties and you've got 10,000 people in a stand yelling and screaming and you've got to turn up to the courts and do the media and do the obligations and all those things go into just taking a little bit of energy away from you. So winning a couple of merchants in Rome was a big bonus for us. One of the big things about Yannick is that it constantly surprises us all the time. Not, not just with his level, but with his maturity and the way he goes about things, but because he's constantly surprising us is kind of the normal for us now. So the fact when we got to Roland Garrus, he had a great tournament in Rome, our expectations inside his team went up for sure, because we knew deep down that maybe he needed a little bit of help with the draw. If we get through those first couple of matches, then anything could happen. So once he got his teeth into the tournament at Roland Garrison, we weren't that surprised because we know what level he's capable of playing at. But to be able to hold that level for five and a half hours in the final of the French. Yeah, again, that was a. It's something that's become normal from within his team, is that he continually surprises us and shows us new things that we weren't ready for.

Andy Roddick (33:53)

One of my favorite things is when you watch people in their transformation, like, when they become great, which at this point, and not meaning, like, not every conversation has to, to your point earlier, has to end with a comparison to, you know, the three greatest on the men's side that I've ever played. But we are watching these two become great in re in real time, you know, they're probably already there. And now we have that like signature, that signature match. But the process of like, I hope that doesn't get lost in the adoration for this match. But you talk about those like little wins in the body and the physicality. Last year in their match in the five setter, they were both cramping a little bit or at least teasing it. Like you could see hands starting to turn into claws and stuff, you know, which is normally the telltale sign. It's like when someone pinky starts going, you know, a little wobbly. It's like the hamstring is coming next. But even last year, compared to this year, with both of them, with, with the physicality, is that, is that. And the answer could be yes. So this could be a bad question. I'm still getting used to, to doing this. But is, is, is that, obviously it's mental, but is it pacing in a match? Is it physicality, is it diet, is it like what do you attribute this, this, this progress to? Or is it just learnings and then you do.

Darren Cahill (35:11)

I think it's experience and maturity. So tennis is a little bit different now because you don't get a chance to play that many five set matches. So Davis cup is different to what it used to be. A lot of the Master Series events used to be five set finals. Back when I played a lot of the tournaments, the Miami Open, the Lipton International used to be five sets from the first round. So playing five set matches is something that you learn as you go. And I think you can look back to the US Open when these guys played what, two and a half years ago at the US Open and it was five sets there as well. Both guys were cramping through that match. And then you go to the Miami match they played and both guys were cramping that one. I think it was Carlos that cramped up in the Miami match and Yannick ended up winning that match. And then Carlos cramped up in the match against Novak, what a couple of years ago at the French as well. So he's now getting more used to playing five set matches. And I don't think it's the physicality or the, the length of the match, it's more the nerves that goes into it. Yeah. And it's learning to deal with how you control yourself, how you control your emotions, when to play the score more than playing each and every point. So there comes a time when you're upset all four, two in the, in the second set and you're not running corner in the corner when the other guy's serving and the other guy has 30 love, you can let a game or two go trying to save some energy and you play the score more efficiently. One of the greatest players to do that was Pete Sampras, who played the score better than anybody. So these guys, you just, you don't start playing five step matches and know that instantaneously. You have to learn that as you go. So these guys are becoming better educated playing five set matches and they're dealing with their anxiety and their nerves much more efficiently than they did a couple of years ago. And that's why you're seeing them stronger now as those five matches, five step matches progress.

Andy Roddick (37:03)

How do you negotiate? Let me, I got one jw. And then I. So I, I also have fun. I like nerd out at different things where, you know, you all decide midstream a couple years ago to bring the foot up on a serve and then Yannick shows up and we haven't seen him for a little while and you know, or I noticed it especially in Australia this year. I don't know if it was a Vic, I don't know if it's because of the surface or whatever, but all of a sudden he's throwing in that like quick little jabby cross court drop shot, like it has to be a blast. I assume the learning curve is quick because to change a service motion midstream before Wimbledon a couple years ago is it's either going to work out perfectly or we're committing you well.

Darren Cahill (37:46)

One of the great things about him is he wants to try new things. And I don't think you see that too much with a young player that's already around the top 10. So we came in, he was coached by Ricardo Piarti, who did an amazing job job for, for years and years and got him inside the top 10. And when Simone Beniotti and myself started, Simone started a little bit before me and then I came along sort of. This time three years ago, I think he was ranked about 14 or 15 in the world. We knew how good he already was. But against the best players in the world, he got exposed because he played a similar type of shot, similar type of ball all the time. And what would happen is he'd be fine, he'd start matches fine, but as the match would progress, he'd actually play his opponent into form. They would get used to his ball and then there was no variation. So one of the things we sat down with is that, okay, you can stay where you Are you can continue to get a little bit better and doing what you're doing and you're probably going to end up, you know, around that 8 to 6 to 12 mark for the next 10 years. And God bless you. If you want to do that, that's great, great. But if you want to be a great player, if you want to give yourself a chance of winning majors, then we need to add things to your game and this. And so we went through it. We went through a change to his backhand, his back end changed. Simone shortened his back and he used to take the back end quite high and used to be a figure eight loop. He pulled it straight down now and it's a very efficient straight through line, through the line of the ball shot. We said it was a three step plan with his serve because his serve was very side on and there was no shoulder rotation in his serve at all. So we started with the feet apart action with the shoulders and then we moved it to the Step Up. The reason why we went to the Step up right before Wimbledon one year is he took that bad loss. He thought it was a bad loss. It was. Daniel Altmyer played incredibly well and beat him in five sets at Roland Garrison the second round. But he was pretty disappointed with the way he served and the way he played. And he asked, he said, where are these improvements going to come from? And then we sat down, we spoke about, okay, the next thing that we need to do is progress your serve. And we both believe you're better with a step up serve, serve. We were going to do this at the end of the year. This is going to be the next progression with your serve. He goes, no, I want to do it now. So within a day we went to the courts in Rowan Garris. He goes, all right, what do I need to do? We copied John Isner a little bit at the start. Not a bad serve to copy. And then he formulated his own feeling in action from what he thought was best. But as soon as he went to the step up serve, we could see that there was improvements to be made and he felt much more comfortable doing it. Changed his court position. He zigzags a lot better now. Instead of playing more laterally on the tennis court across the baseline, he's in and out of the baseline much more efficiently. A little bit like Rafa does when he's playing on hard courts and, and trying to take time away from his opponents. Using the drop shot a lot more effectively, coming in more, he's more comfortable on the volley Using a slice backhand occasionally. He doesn't use the slice back in all that match. I've got to say, one of the. The players that I tapped on the shoulder, he lost a Novak a couple of years ago at Wimbledon in five sets. Won the first two sets right back. Exactly. Novak came back and ran away with the mat a little bit. What I just said. Novak got used to his ball, got used to the shape, got used to the pace, and then just locked in like Novak does and doesn't miss, and won the last three sets reasonably easily. And I saw Novak, and he's always great with this. He's always been incredible when you tap him on the shoulder and. And I said, hey, listen, I'm just. I just started with Yannick. Don't tell me anything you don't want to tell me, but can I ask what you were feeling out there? And he was incredible. He basically said, hey, listen, good luck with working with him. Yeah, hits the ball great, but there's no variation, so, you know, there's no shape on his shot, there's no height over the net, doesn't come to the net. He's not trying to bring me in. I know that he returns well, but he's not attacking my serve on the return of service. So he went through his whole game and broke it down. And. And it wasn't like it was revelations to what we didn't know about Yannick and what we were trying to change in his game. But when you take that conversation and sit down with a young man like Yannick Sinner and say, hey, listen, I just spoke to Novak, and this is what he thinks. That leaves a big impression on a young player. So for Yannick, it's right, give it to me. Let's start doing these changes. And again, I give Simone a lot of credit because Simone went through a piece by piece, and together he's been willing to make a lot of changes to his game. And that's where you see the evolution of his game now. Going from a guy that had all sorts of trouble playing Medvedev, and he still struggles to play Daniel Medvedev, but he's found a way to. To use his finishing skills to find different ways to win points. He doesn't rely on just thumping forehands and backhands now to win points. He can still do that, that. But you've got to find different ways to win tennis points to put some confusion on the other side of the court, because if your opponent is not confused about what's going on, they're probably going to beat you. And you got to try to find ways to put some doubt in your opponent's mind. And I think he does that a lot better.

JW (42:56)

Now, can I ask you a personal question before we get back to. I, I'm just. I, I feel like this is a point that not a lot of people know about you. They know that you've compiled this hall of fame worthy resume.

Andy Roddick (43:05)

You.

JW (43:05)

And you've coached Andre and Simona Holep and now Jannik Sitter.

Andy Roddick (43:09)

And you've sat Cortez, that pain in the ass Hewitt. Don't leave out Hewitt. That Hewitt guy, ultimate pain in the ass.

JW (43:16)

You've had your share of victory dinners. I don't think that people realize that you effectively entered the family business. I was late to the party to learn this too. Andy, his father is sort of the John Wooden Vince Lombardi of Aussie rules football. And it's not something I've heard you talk about much, but I was fascinated by that and I wondered if you could talk a little bit about your dad and what you incorporate from him because this is one of the towering coaches of a team sport and now you've done the same in an individual sport.

Darren Cahill (43:50)

I've been trying to jump out of my Dad's shadow for 59 years. I don't want to talk about it.

JW (43:55)

Get back in there.

Darren Cahill (43:59)

Yeah. I wouldn't even know where to start with this because for me I grew up in an Australian rules football family. My dad's a Port Adelaide Football Club legend. At some point he held the all time games, record games played. Pretty close to winning the, we call it the McGarry Medal which is the best and fairest player back in South Australia. I think he finished runner up a couple of years but he really cut his teeth and made his, his mark coaching back in South Australia, the Port La Football Club. And you think he won 10 premierships out of 11 back then? The, the league was pretty close. You had two leagues back there, the vfl, the Victorian Football League and the South Australian National Football League. And the, the winning teams quite often would play against each other to see who was the best team in Australia. And quite often South Australia would win that. So he was. Yeah, he's still regarded as a legend back home. I can walk around South Australia, no one knows who in the hell I am, but they certainly know who he is and, and I'm really proud of that and I think it's helped me a lot. A lot of my coaching is based around the way that he coached his football teams. And I think it, it starts with good communication. I think it starts also with understanding your player and the differences between coaching different players. You can't coach two players the same way. And you have to be able to coach through their eyes and getting to understand the player where their strengths and weak and how you can try to educate them to become better at what they do. And you know, I'm all around making a better person as well. I think if you can create and make a better person, you're going to make a better athlete. And I think that hopefully that runs true to a lot of the players that I coach. And I wouldn't work with anyone I didn't like. I think it's. It's really important to be connected to that person as a person, not necessarily as an athlete. And I've been really thankful and lucky that I've been able to work with great people. And that's what my dad did as well. He surrounded himself with good people and, and made sure that they gave him the truth and that he was always trying to get better. Even now he. He's still sending me text messages about how I can keep improving Yannick and why is he serve suck and how come he's not taking that forehand and going to the net. So he's an expert in tennis as well, and certainly an expert in football. But I have nothing but admiration and pride. Pride and, and being a Cahill and being his son because he's been a trailblazer for me, that's for sure.

Andy Roddick (46:21)

How. How much did you learn? Because I can, I can watch a match and I can. I can know what's going on and I can talk about it and I can see it and I can feel it when I'm playing. But the thing I struggle with if people come in for a couple, three days, is the amount of things I want to say. How much is too much? When do you say it? That that's the piece of coaching that I think is. Separates the great coaches like yourself and others against people that just really know the game. But like talk about the when and the how of delivering information and how important that is to. To coaching.

Darren Cahill (46:59)

So the first six weeks that I spent with Andre, I remember he played you in one of those tournaments as well in San Jose. So I just started in 2002. We did a trial for six weeks. I didn't tell him anything for six weeks. Basically I just asked him questions. I got to know him. I tried to get a feel for how he saw the Game. I have a great story about you, actually. So clearly he brought me in to give a bit of insight also about Leighton Hewitt. So Leighton was number one at the world at that point, and he figured that if he was ever going to win a major again, that he would have to go through Hewitt at some stage. So he was fascinated with Leighton Layton and the way he played. So he wanted to see tennis through his eyes. So we spent a lot of time talking about Leighton, of course. But to have a story about you, because I think he played you in San Jose in the quarterfinals, beating.

Andy Roddick (47:44)

He.

Darren Cahill (47:45)

Yeah, so beat me. He. He. We talk about his first two opponents, we'd do a bit of a game plan and talk about their strengths and weaknesses, and we wouldn't go too deep. Then on the car ride from Tiburon to San Francisco, San Jose, it was a long car ride, I brought up the conversation about you, and I said, all right, we've got Andy Roddick now let's talk about Andy's game. He said, it's okay, I got this one covered. And I said, really? There's a lot to know about Andy. You know, there's. You played him, you. I'm not sure if you'd lost to him or you beat him at that point or whatever. He goes, no, no, no. So here's what's going to happen. Andy's going to hit me this cheesy little serve out wide, first point of the match, because he wants to be able to hit that one and get away with it. And I'm going to step over there and I'm going to thump this forehand a million miles an hour and scare of him so he never hits that again throughout the entire match. And I want him hitting it down the middle of the court to my backhand because I don't want to have to be broken open in the court. So he's going to then go down the middle on the Juice court every single time, because he's going to be scared of that cheesy wide serve. And then I'm going to get in the point and hopefully find his backhand, open the forehand out a little bit, and then every now and then smack into his backhand and even sneak into the net a little bit. But, no, I got this one covered, so, no, we're good. And so I think. What was it like, 4 and 3? I think it was pretty easy.

Andy Roddick (49:00)

Darren, you don't know how much credit you're giving me with that. That scoreline. It was three and one, and I don't think it was that close. It was.

Darren Cahill (49:08)

He played well.

Andy Roddick (49:09)

Everything that you said happened for like, for, for like, for like an hour and 12 minutes. That's exactly what was happening.

Darren Cahill (49:17)

He said it. He said it all. He knew exactly. And this is how great and how deep his mind is. He knew exactly how that match was going to play out. So you asked the question about how much coaching goes in to the first period, and that's why it's difficult for coaches that come in for a couple of days and, and the players pick the brains of coaches for a couple of days because for the first six weeks, I barely said anything to him about his game. It was about getting to know him. And once you get to know him and you form that trust and he asks you questions and you can give answers where hopefully they're deep and meaningful and, and well educated, then he becomes more confident in the information you're giving him and then you can start to work on the plan about becoming a better tennis player. So, yes, it's difficult if you're a consultant coach that's coming in for a week here and a week there. Yeah, I struggle with that because it's tough, because the player needs time to be able to take your information, then go away and work on it. And they're never going to believe it until they feel it. And sometimes feeling something on a tennis court can take days or weeks. So my advice for a lot of the consultant coaches is less is best. Pick two or three things that you think is really important to that player becoming better, and then give them that information and then follow up with how things are going, what little tweaks might be able to be made. I speak to Andre about this all the time because his mind goes at a thousand miles as well, and he, he will help anyone that picks up the phone. If you're a tennis player and you want to come to Las Vegas and hit some balls with him, he will pick up the phone and tell you to come. It's been hundreds of tennis players, male and female, that have come through Las Vegas that he's practiced with, but he will also give a lot of information to the player. And sometimes it's a little bit difficult for that player to absorb a lot of that information. And so I tell him all the time, mate, just pick two things, two things that you think are really crucial to that player and break it down for a them. And when he does that, he is brilliant.

Andy Roddick (51:21)

That has to be. That has to, like, that's like telling JW not to Get a jelly donut at a buffet. Like, there's no chance that Andre could only take. Say two things, right, Darren, Just. Just sitting here listening, and I've just. You. Are you going to stop? You're going to. You're really going to stop this?

Darren Cahill (51:39)

It's a long year.

Andy Roddick (51:41)

We'll see.

Darren Cahill (51:43)

It's. He's such a good young man. Yeah, I'm. I'm going to be 60 this year. Sometimes you. You know when you got. When the time has come. We had this conversation at the end of last year, and he wasn't supposed to release it, so he made a mistake at the Australian Open and he won. Come on.

Andy Roddick (51:59)

Really? So he. He said something and then that. That was how it.

Darren Cahill (52:05)

That's how it got out. So he went into the press conference, I think after his first or second round at the Australian Open, and went to. Apparently he said, this is going to be Darren's last year coaching. And then he comes running into the locker room going, oh, I just made a big mistake. I'm so sorry. Don't worry about it. It's okay. So it got out by accident, but the plan was this is going to be my last year. Nothing's really changed at the moment, but it is a long year. I'm having so much fun working with him. You never know. But also my role. I'm not the main coach. Simone is the main coach. My role is whilst we communicate with everything that's happening, we do all the game planning, the technical stuff, the emotional stuff, I'd probably take care of a little bit more. Like this period after the French Open. That's why I'm here in LA is maybe more important for me to be around. Somebody's not here. There's a certain period of time where I feel like he knows the messaging that's going to come from me. He's picked my brain enough. He's always of the opinion that he's searching for better ways to. And different ways to get better. So having a new voice, new set of eyes coming in is not a bad thing for him. So whether or not that happens remains to be seen, but it's still the plan at the moment. But it is a long year, and again, I can't stress how much I'm enjoying working with him.

Andy Roddick (53:24)

I don't know, man. Like, hearing the way that you talk about coaching and hearing the way that you talk about players, I don't know. I think I might throw it into Vegas and call bullshit. Like, I think that you have too much to give Give. I will. There's no response to that. But just let's clip this. If I actually end up being right. But Darren, I'll say something that you would never say about yourself because that's just not the way you operate. I will die on the hill. That you should be in the hall of fame for what you, you've accomplished for, for coaching and I hope that happens for you. I would put my full weight behind that any day of the week. I think you've, you've navigated really kind of, of difficult circumstances with a lot of class. You have a great reputation inside of tennis. It's not just presenting here on a podcast where he sounds good, he's consistent at least the couple of decades that, that, that I've known him. We appreciate you coming on what a performance in Roland Garros. I hope that Jannik, it sounds like he does, has some perspective about what they did. It was just fantastic. And all the, all the luck with the new chess match on grass these next couple of weeks.

JW (54:28)

Thanks.

Darren Cahill (54:29)

Thank you guys. Always a pleasure. Love your podcast and thank you for having me on and thank you for your kind words as well. I really appreciate it.

Andy Roddick (54:36)

Cheers. Killer. Thank you, Beauty.

Darren Cahill (54:38)

Guys.

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Darren Cahill (55:31)

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Andy Roddick (55:35)

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Andy Roddick (55:40)

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Darren Cahill (55:44)

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Andy Roddick (55:46)

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JW (55:58)

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Andy Roddick (55:59)

Buzz Balls LLC. Carrollton Texas. All right, welcome back to serve. That was awesome. It was great. I mean, you listen to Darren Cahill talk and it's not, things don't happen by accident. Like, it's not. He should be the person who has coached all these great players based on what he offers, his insights, how pragmatic he is with thought, how you think, like long term. I was someone who kind of was overcome by emotion and had to like make a decision. It seems like, you know, the three step process with changing the serve over a year, it's just so patient, which you don't see in professional sports very often. Jw, do you have any takeaways?

JW (56:40)

Yeah, you know, you know the phrase like fair dinkum is this Aussie phrase for just like straight shooter down the middle, good guy, honorable. There are some coaches in tennis, you talk to them and you understand why they're coaches and why they are former coaches. That's not him. You talk to him and you say, boy. Anyone who is working with him is lucky. And I think, you know, I visited with him in Monte Carlo last month when Jannik center was in a much different place. And I realized how much of there's an element of father, son to that relationship. It's really not forehands and backhands. And they've navigated a lot in the last nine months or so and here they are. And yeah, it's a stinging defeat to come within a point of winning a major and not getting the deal done. But I think big picture, they both have so much perspective. You don't worry about this train going off the tracks. And I think we got to, you hear, sometimes commentary is one thing, but you have a conversation like that, I think you really understand what makes him the coach he is. And what you said, at some point there are enough data points that you can make statements like, you belong in the hall of Fame. It ain't a fluke. He does 30 years and. Yeah, and I don't think you'd find much debate there.

Andy Roddick (57:52)

Yeah, I mean, if, if, if he doesn't like, if he doesn't belong in the hall of Fame, then I don't even know why we, we have a coaching like, why we allow it. Because it's just that's, that's an automatic. At least in my, at least in my mind. And it's not like as if it happened once or even with one player. Right. Someone has a great coach and it's like one time it's repeated with a bunch of different players, male, female, over different personalities. Like, Andre is nothing like Yannick. Right. Who's nothing like Leighton, who's nothing like, like. So it just, it really does kind of expose, you know, kind of greatness in the, in the coaching realm. He should be and you know, we'll see if that gains any traction. But in my opinion, he should. I should have asked him. Mike. Producer Mike. You know what I should have asked him.

Mike (58:34)

What?

Andy Roddick (58:35)

Just to really fucking ruin everything. I should have asked him if he thought tennis players were the best athletes in the world.

JW (58:41)

Yeah, seriously, who would have that discussion?

Mike (58:43)

Yeah, no, no one's care that comment, dude.

Andy Roddick (58:46)

What? So I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm dark. I'm not on social, I'm not on anything. I do our little show. But when I start getting texts from people who aren't really like, they're not tennis people, they're like other friends and they're like sending me clips of the show. I'm like, what's going on, Mike? What happened? Are we in trouble?

Mike (59:04)

I know, especially when you show up in like Gilbert Arenas's podcast with our friend Josiah and I was like, oh man, we've really crossed over. Which, that was a great depth bait. Enjoyed that one. Go check it out if you want.

Andy Roddick (59:14)

I didn't even see it. I just saw. We were talking, we were messing around with the Chuckers club and seeing like we don't have enough time and obviously Darren is going to take precedent over any of our stupid little self indulgent show stuff. But like I think we should put out like a, like a, like a, like a hidden show just for the Chuckers where we just read. I told social Sovieto, start taking catalog because I don't see the responses. A catalog of like the meanest things that people were saying. And maybe we just do a response to show just for fun.

Mike (59:43)

Yeah, let's do it like that, like.

Andy Roddick (59:46)

A little secret show.

Mike (59:47)

Brunt of the commentary.

Andy Roddick (59:50)

Just walk the plank.

Mike (59:51)

Yeah, just walk the plank.

Andy Roddick (59:54)

Other news that I, that I want to kind of get to a little bit before we say see you next week. Jw, you got a, you got a documentary coming out tomorrow, Surviving Ohio State. What do we got?

JW (60:07)

Good, good soldier. This is, this is not the feel good hit of the summer, but good.

Andy Roddick (60:12)

Great, great marketing.

JW (60:13)

Yeah. A documentary based on a story I wrote about a sexual assault scandal at Ohio State that persists. This was a team doctor who was a sexual predator. The school did not act responsibly. And here we are years and years later and there are Still a lot of traumatized athletes. Powerful film. It premiered at Tribeca a few nights ago when a number of these athletes came and saw this and felt validated. It was really an emotional night. Strong, powerful film. Eva Orner is the director. George Clooney is one of the producers. Not a feel good movie, but immodestly, I think it's important and pleased with how it came out. Thanks for bringing that up. I've been doing a media tour a bit today so this fits right in. But it's on HBO starting Tuesday the 17th.

Andy Roddick (61:07)

We will check it out. We'll have a nice offset between very serious stuff with surviving Ohio State and dumb mean tweets on the Chukar channel. I don't, I don't know what it's called. I don't know. You have to figure it out.

JW (61:21)

Reversible.

Andy Roddick (61:22)

But anyways, thank you to Darren Cahill for, for coming on Syrup today. We're spoiled at this point. I mean, we have regularly have guests on where all I do is just learn for the entire time that they're speaking, speaking. And Darren certainly is no exception to that. We are lucky. Hopefully you feel lucky to be able to listen to these conversations. I know I certainly do, to be a part of them. Thank you for watching our coverage from Roland Garros and Quick Serves and the Andre episode which if you haven't watched that, please go watch that. It's, it's, it's amazing. But it's just been a super fun ride and we can't wait to continue it. J.W. techi, Sean, producer Mike in the house. We will see you next week. Thanks.

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