Greatest Forehands, Draper & Fils Return from Injury & More w/ Chris Eubanks & Jon Wertheim

Summary

Served with Andy Roddick

Episode: Greatest Forehands, Draper & Fils Return from Injury & More
Guests: Chris Eubanks & Jon Wertheim
Release Date: February 10, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode of Served with Andy Roddick dives deep into the world of tennis with a signature mix of irreverent humor, technical expertise, and storytelling. Andy Roddick, joined by Chris Eubanks, Jon Wertheim, and show regulars, covers:

• The return of promising young players (Draper, Fils, Qinwen) from injury and the broader “injury problem” among U25 stars;
• A nerdy, passionate hour-long breakdown of the greatest tennis forehands of all time, split by tennis eras and player perspectives;
• The influence of technology and training on stroke evolution;
• Notable anecdotes, friendly podcast rivalries, and tennis-life stories.

Whether you’re a casual or an obsessive tennis fan, this is a goldmine of insights, technical breakdowns, and locker-room banter.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Travel, Tennis Seasons, and Returning from Injury

(01:26 – 07:58)

• The crew reflects on the rigors of world tennis travel and pokes fun at sports commentary clichés about jetlag and tournament schedules.
• They celebrate Félix Auger-Aliassime’s (FAA) dominance at indoor tournaments—8 of his 9 titles have been indoors, surpassing Milos Raonic as Canada's most decorated male player (02:55).
• Discussion pivots to the excitement around the return of Jack Draper, Zheng Qinwen, and Arthur Fils after significant time sidelined by injuries (06:09).
  • Roddick notes: "His ranking is going to drop...But like he's still one of the guys that can build and...disrupt...the tennis earth and maybe one of the people that can sneak something out." (06:12)
• Broader point: physical diligence is non-negotiable at the top, with Roddick using Isner, Djokovic, and his own routine as examples of injury prevention discipline.

Notable Quote

"The better you want to be, the fitter you have to be. It takes more time, even away from the court...You can't skip massages, you can't skip stretching, you can't skip icing after every single practice." – Andy Roddick (08:03)

2. Winter Sports, Tennis in the Olympics, and Ice Tennis

(03:21 – 05:20)

• Light-hearted detour on why tennis isn't a Winter Olympic sport, featuring humorous hypotheticals around "ice tennis."
• Andy's rule: "If you wear shorts, it's not a winter sport."
• Banter about goofy winter mashup sports and a proposed “Flying V” hockey routine as an Olympic event.
• The team watches a viral clip of skating tennis, unanimously agreeing it would make a killer event.

3. Podcast Rivalry & Pro Event Anecdotes

(10:00 – 13:23)

• Andy recounts a recent hit at the Dallas tour event with John Isner and Sam Querrey, marveling at McEnroe’s longevity:
  • "No one's been good at tennis as long as him." (10:28)
• Humorous exchange about Roddick ribbing the “Nothing Major Podcast”:

  “I think your podcast is super cute. It's like, I just want to take it and put it in my pocket...I know you guys are trying a little hard sell. I think it's just fantastic.” – Andy Roddick (11:45)

• That playful roast leads to a fun discussion on the friendly competitive banter among tennis podcasters.

4. Main Segment: Greatest Forehands of All Time

(14:22 – 83:44, interspersed)

Forehand List Criteria & Structure

• The host and Eubanks split their forehand picks by "eras"—Andy’s cutoff is players up to 2012, while Chris covers post-2012.
• Focus isn’t on biggest power only, but completeness: footwork, ability under pressure, versatility, stroke mechanics, adaptability to technology, and tactical use.

Legendary Forehands: The Roddick–Eubanks Conversation

(15:35–83:44)

Classic Era (Up to 2012)—Andy’s List

Ivan Lendl (17:35):

• "Lendl was the first absolute grim reaper thumper."
• Introduced power and aggression as a norm from the forehand side.

Pete Sampras (18:43):

• Evolution from Lendl, with signature “high elbow” and ability to generate pace particularly on inside-out shots.

Jim Courier (20:28):

• "He would scoot left, and he basically took what Lendle did and then said, like, the inside out control the entire dynamic…"
• Noted for controlling rallies and flattening shots on clay—precursor to heavy modern inside-out play.

Andre Agassi (23:33):

• Praised for ability to take forehand early, return big serves with full swings, and inject pace without time.
• Roddick: “He was maybe, maybe the only one from like 80s through that kind of was able to adapt [to modern gear and strings]... I personally think he's the best ball striker in history.” (29:06)
• Agassi as a transcendent talent across eras and technologies.

Juan Martín del Potro (31:48):

• The "wipeout" forehand. "There were sets where, you know, he hit nine forehand winners..."
• Noted for long levers and unmatched on-the-run power. “His ability to time up. Even when extended, he’d still inject pace.” (34:42)

Roger Federer (37:32):

• Roddick and Eubanks agree on the sheer variety, defense-to-offense transitions, and ability to create time/angle as unique to Federer.
• Eubanks: “Rogers forehand had the ability to take time away and catch the ball early like Andre...and just had the variety.”

Modern/Post-2012—Eubanks’ Picks

Rafael Nadal (45:23):

• “No one's ever hit it harder with more spin. ...He changed everything... he changed tennis.”—Andy (45:23)
• Roddick and Eubanks stress how Rafa’s forehand altered the approach to attack, especially with lefty spin and angles.

Novak Djokovic (56:19, Honorable Mention):

• “Novak’s forehand got way better over time...”
• Though not quite at the very top as of Roddick’s ‘2012 cutoff’ rule, both agree Djokovic’s forehand is now among the game’s very best, and his technical adjustments are highlighted.

Carlos Alcaraz (65:47):

• Called a modern update on Federer’s variety, only “with more spin, more firepower.”
• “If you don’t hit one perfectly and he has two feet under him...he can hit it over 100 mph both ways...At the last second, he can brush underneath and drop shot you. You can’t account for all those options." (67:05–68:15)

Jannik Sinner (69:57):

• Sinner’s wrist lag and timing are celebrated:

  “If I see that...I'm going, okay, I’m a rush it. Except for Jannik Sinner. The ability for him to have that lag and you still not be able to rush him...that’s the superpower.” – Roddick (71:26)

Dominic Thiem (72:12):

• “His forehand was a joke…I mean, the guy could thump the ball.”
• Noted for huge, loopy swings from well behind the baseline.

Jack Sock (74:15, Honorable Mention):

• Holds RPM records above even Rafa for a time (“numbers better, stop it right now”), a marvel in doubles, but Roddick notes his forehand does need time and can be rushed more than the others.

Taylor Fritz, Casper Ruud, Ben Shelton, & Arthur Fils (Various Honorable Mentions):

• Fritz: “Puts a hurt on the ball... comes off flat and hard and deep.” (78:41)
• Casper Ruud: “He actually took over RPMs from Rafa, too...Bird’s eye view, you’re going, it doesn’t look like he’s ripping it, but then all of a sudden, you get the bottom view and it’s jumping.” (80:12)
• Modern tech and strings emphasized as game-changers, with Jack Sock among the pioneers stringing polyester at below 40 lbs, which was previously unthinkable (76:05–77:43).

General Forehand Wisdom

• The best forehands combine timing, shot variety, footwork, and tactical adaptability—not just outright power.
• “All these guys...10 out of 10 footwork...It's hard to have a great forehand if you have sloppy footwork...” – Andy (55:06)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On The Modern Forehand’s Diversity:
  “He was able to be perfect, but subtly perfect in multiple ways...I don't know that anyone's ever had, like, more variety.” — Andy on Federer (45:08)
• On Rafael Nadal’s Impact:
  “He changed everything. Nobody could attack Roger Slice before he came along.”—Andy (45:29)
• On Technical Evolution:
  “If I was going to do it, I would absolutely... drop as much [weight] before I committed back to the training process.” — Andy, on the reality of preparing for a comeback, referencing Serena (87:04)
• On Podcast Rivalry:
  “I also would like to congratulate Sam and John. I think your podcast is super cute. It's like, I just want to put it in my pocket.” — Andy (11:45)
• On the Reality of Pro Level Defense:
  “Missing a volley, it’s not about the volley. It’s about doing enough with the volley so it’s not instant death...You have to make these decisions within half a second.” — Andy (48:24)
• On Sinner’s Background in Skiing:
  “Now I think...you’re going to see every tennis player just like throwing themselves down a mountain. I kind of buy it now.” — Andy (90:17)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 01:26 – Opening catching up, travel banter, and FAA milestone
• 03:21 – Why tennis isn’t a Winter Olympic sport, “ice tennis” clip
• 06:09 – Draper, Qinwen, Fils return from injury & impact
• 08:03 – Physical work, tennis training, injury discussion
• 10:00 – Dallas Tour event, McEnroe longevity, podcast rivalry roast
• 14:22 – Beginning of “Best Forehands” Nerd-out with Chris Eubanks
• 17:35 – Lendl, Sampras, Courier, Agassi discussion
• 31:48 – Del Potro’s “wipeout” forehand
• 37:32 – Federer’s forehand analyzed
• 45:23 – Nadal as a game-changer, approach play evolution
• 56:19 – Djokovic’s forehand evolution
• 65:47 – Modern era—Alcaraz, Sinner, Thiem
• 74:15 – Honorable mentions: Sock, Fritz, Ruud, and more
• 83:44 – Nerdy tennis praise, segment wrap-up
• 84:43 – Super Bowl, star power, Serena comeback rumors
• 87:04 – On weight loss and coming out of retirement
• 89:18 – Novak Djokovic at the Olympics, athletic awe
• 90:17 – On Sinner’s skiing; multi-sport backgrounds
• 91:23 – The story of Andy Roddick losing to Drew Brees

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Tone & Style

• Candid, irreverent, and full of both technical depth and self-deprecating humor.
• Regular interruptions for side stories and playful teasing among tennis friends.
• Nuanced breakdowns manage to educate serious fans while remaining accessible to “normies.”

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Summary Takeaways

• This episode is a must-listen for tennis nerds and anyone interested in the technical and psychological nuances of professional tennis.
• The longest, deepest list of “best forehands” you’ll find in a single conversation, crammed with context, evolution, and locker room truths.
• The hosts’ collective playing, coaching, and media experience shines throughout, making for a rich, entertaining session that leaves you feeling smarter about strokes, careers, and the culture of pro tennis.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

What's up, jw?

[A]

How's it going?

[C]

Where jet lagged?

[A]

Where are you? You're always. I feel like you. It would be like, more surprising if you were, like, had like a base level of sleep.

[C]

I need tips. Doug Spreen, if you're out there. Anyone. God, coming back over the Pacific is rough and I'm still, still dragging here. Good to see you guys.

[A]

I always like that one when I'm watching, like, sports shows and they're like, ah, I don't know, man. Philadelphia, they got that west coast game today. And I'm like, yeah, what the are you talking about? Like, Memphis on a Friday and Dubai on a Monday. Get out of here.

[B]

Yeah, They've been out there for like three days. Like, hopefully. Hopefully.

[A]

Oh, gosh. They got to stay out there for nine days. I'm like nine whole days away.

[D]

Really?

[A]

I know we don't. And I say the commentary. I know we don't get hit in the head.

[D]

I got it.

[A]

I understand. And it's not that far to go to, like, Arizona. It's not that bad. I think the takeaway, FAA wins in Montpelier because FAA wins every indoor tournament. Not. Okay, let's see. Let's see how you do here. JW Ready? FAA has nine career titles. He Just moved past Milos Raonich for the most titles won by a Canadian male. How many of those titles are indoors?

[D]

O. O.

[C]

Sean, what do you think he already.

[A]

He knows. Commit to what you just said.

[C]

Eight.

[A]

Eight is the correct answer.

[B]

That's crazy.

[A]

Eight.

[C]

That's crazy.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Hey, let me ask you a question. As long as you brought this up. Sure. Let's. Let's veer a little bit. Winter Olympics are going on, right? Which means sports that are played on snow or ice. But there's talk sometimes, especially with this kind of imbalance in sports and ratings of like, maybe we need to broaden. What's a winter sport? Why is table tennis summer?

[A]

If, if tennis, if this were back.

[C]

On the docket and tennis could be a winter sport, it would obviously be indoors to the great benefit of Felix, if you could find a facility and tennis could get to be a Winter Olympic sport, pro or con. No, you don't want that.

[D]

No, no.

[B]

Because you play like, not indoors.

[A]

I got. Okay, I'm going to define this. I'm going to make it simpler than it probably is. There's probably more nuance to this. If you wear shorts, it's not a winter sport.

[B]

Okay. If you wear shorts, it's not a winter sport.

[A]

Not a winter sport.

[C]

That's good.

[A]

If I can see your kneecaps, it belongs in the Summer Games.

[B]

John and I didn't talk about this beforehand. We actually had a clip queued up for. For you to see a winter version of tennis. Posted by. What's the guy's name? Oh, man, Rob rawling.

[A]

You know what?

[B]

14. Sean, cue it up and let's play it for these guys. Let's see if this is a version of tennis I would probably watch in a Winter Olympic sport.

[A]

See, that's way cooler than all the.

[B]

Other dudes are on ice.

[A]

Dude.

[B]

This is skating around playing tennis.

[A]

This is way cooler than all of the other made up games. Games that people think we should take seriously.

[B]

Yeah. Here's the other one. This is indoors. They are on a hockey rig.

[A]

That's cool. I mean, these guys, these, these guys obviously, like they like dunk basketballs and stuff. They hit well, like they don't look dumb hitting. And they obviously skate. Really? That's cool. What if, what would, what would you do here? I got, I got. Here's my proposal. And we've, we've sidetracked so far already.

[B]

Thank you for setting that up, John.

[D]

Here.

[B]

Thanks.

[A]

You know what I would watch in the Winter Olympics? A subset of hockey where all the teams did was run the Flying V from Mighty Ducks over and over and over.

[B]

I think that the mixed doubles in an ice hockey tennis would be, it would be, it'd be rough.

[A]

We started going through results and then this happened. Yeah, thanks. John Radicando losing the final to Chris Staya Castella's last year on tour. Cool that she won her an event at home. I think the biggest story of, of this week, obviously we're kind of slow post Australia going into Dallas. Kind of everyone trying to tack points on the board before Indian Wells, Miami, people coming back and being healthy, big names and people that, that can disrupt the sport, like are good enough to actually make a semi a final. May be, you know, name on this one's won a, you know, gold medal and one's won a master series. Draper, Quinn Wen and Feast back. Draper has already played. He played Davis cup, won a match in Oslo. Quinn Wen is coming back in Doha.

[B]

She did play. She beat Sophia Kenan. Oh, she did?

[D]

Yep.

[A]

Okay. Time differences, one and two. That's not easy like to come back and win after you've been off for that long. That's pretty good effort by both of them. And Feast coming back in in Rotterdam. Maybe he will have played by the time this gets release tomorrow. But those are, those are big names and names that you want to see healthy. They're all exciting. They all add something, their storylines, they come from massive markets, all of which are important to, to tennis, you know. And you said Draper hadn't played a match since August. I mean, he kind of played, he played one match, but then he was out. I mean, kind of tried to play Wimbledon. He wasn't. He hasn't been fully healthy since. It feels like almost Madrid last year, maybe the first week of the French Open. His ranking is going to drop because he front loaded a bunch of points. Obviously I don't think he's going to get back to what he was March, April, May last year. So there's going to be like a 20 something next to his name at some point. But like he's still one of the guys that can build and not saying challenge the big two, but like disrupt, you know, the tennis earth and maybe one of the people that can sneak something out in some way, shape or form. So it's just good to see people back and back and healthy.

[C]

It seems to me that the good news here is these are young players. We talked about this with Holger as well. Maybe they'll get these years back on the back end of their career. What's problematic is these are young players, and when you're 21, 22, 23 years old, I mean, remember Draper a year ago, beats Carlos and wins Indian Wells. I mean, this was, this was the hottest act in tennis. Pretty early to have an injury that takes you out for, for six months. But good, good to see them all back. I mean, you know, with, with Holger, with, with Fonseca, we've had a lot of injuries. Carlos and Jannik sitter are tremendous. But the, the under 25 crowd has been hit pretty hard with injuries lately.

[A]

Let's, let's just disconnect right here, like, draw a line. This conversation isn't about Draper Feast Queen Wen. This isn't like a. But you see a lot of players that are like, oh, you know, I, I, I've, I've, I've just been hurt. I've been so unlucky. And I look at it, and I'd say a lot of the time I look and be like, oh, you have a reputation for not putting in the physical work away from the court. So you're not unlucky. Sometimes, Sometimes it's just massively unlucky. But, like, there are levels to it. The better you want to be, the fitter you have to be. It takes more time, even away from the court. You know, you can't skip massages, you can't skip stretching. You can't skip icing after every single practice. Like, we used to go from practice, and I'd go sit in the training room with ice for 45 minutes every day, every practice, every single time. Then you go back into the city and you have a full program that might run two hours, and you don't skip days, right? And then that's after you've set the table for training for six weeks. You know, I would do December, and I'd be like, okay, I'm going to maintain through March through Indian Wells, Miami, and then I have to reset and go through. Kind of make yourself into, like, body armor, right? And so there are levels to it. But like, I played a deal with, with Isner the other day, and he's, he's in there stretching for a half hour beforehand. Like, he was able, it's not an accident that him having that massive body, he still was able to play as long as he was, he was very smart about the way he trained. He's like, I'm not going to be out there running three and four hundreds. Like, my body doesn't, I don't need that. It doesn't do that if I'm playing long rallies, that's my fault. But he was so diligent. I mean, every practice stretching for however long and avoided, like, these massive big body injuries. When people avoid stuff, when Novak avoids injury for as long as he has, and it is that good. That's not an accident. Like, that is not an accident.

[C]

Did you say you were with John? And I saw a video of a guy in his 40s serving some serving bombs. AI is doing its thing. Were you in Dallas?

[A]

I'll tell you. I'll tell. Yeah, I was in Dallas. We played at the Tour event there. It's a pretty cool event like that. It's like this huge dome, I think the Cowboys facility.

[B]

Practice.

[A]

Yeah. But they built the stadium and then they had the practice court. It's all under one dome.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

It looks like a winter sport, John. It was pretty crazy. So the biggest takeaway is Mac's a joke. Mac is like, the fact it's 66 years old. And what. I mean, it's. It's just. No one's been better as long as no one can.

[B]

You played against Mack.

[A]

Yeah. No one's been good at tennis as long as him.

[B]

It's absurd.

[A]

And he hits this little. And it would. The core is a little.

[C]

Little.

[A]

Little slimy and a little, little fast. And he's hitting these, like, 115 to the corners. And it's just like the three of us. Like, I was. I played with Sam, who doesn't quite volley as well as John McEnroe.

[B]

Sam, query.

[A]

Yeah. So we were. We're obviously just hacking volleys everywhere. And Max is great. Isner knows how to hit a return now, which is like. I don't know how that happened.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Like, Isner was the dominant force, like, outside of the serve.

[B]

I just saw them entering the court, and he had to duck underneath the video board door that opened, and then you just cleared it with. With such ease.

[A]

They're so science. They're so tall.

[B]

Like.

[A]

Like, Sam is huge and John is 4 inches taller than Sam. They're so big.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I feel like. Like I walk into, like, a tennis event now, and I feel tiny. Just a little wisp of a thing.

[B]

And Blair was there, too. Blair did the post match.

[A]

Saw Blair.

[B]

Yeah. We saw some comments from the post match on the Internet. On the Internet.

[A]

I think I know it.

[B]

I think. I think. Yeah. Yeah. We saw Andy. Andy was taking a little bit of a dig at our friends from the Nothing Major podcast.

[A]

I mean, what, are we not happy?

[B]

We have It.

[A]

I'm sorry, are we the fun police? Fuck me.

[B]

Sean, go ahead and play this clip.

[A]

I also would like to congratulate Sam and John. I think your podcast is super cute. It's like, I just. I just want to take it and I want to put it in my pocket. And I know you guys are trying a little hard sell. I think it's just fantastic.

[B]

Can you please do. We posted it with no context. Because of course we would. Yeah, please give us the context.

[A]

There is context.

[B]

You weren't roasting them first.

[A]

I didn't start the fight. Just so we're clear. Like, I hopefully ended the fight, but I did not start the fight. It wasn't gratuitous.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Not saying I wouldn't have gone there because, like, everyone's like, oh, you said about another. Like, we're friends. We've been friends for, like, I. I genuinely love hanging out with Sam and John. Like, they're great. I like what they do. Their show's different than ours. Ours is different than theirs. Whatever.

[B]

Everyone, they were saying they're the number one tennis podcast.

[A]

Well, Sam's about to answer a question, and John knows that, like, I know that they represented. Like, he's told people they're the number one. I'm like, okay, listen, you don't get your own math. Like, ob. Come on. Like, get out of here. Like, you.

[B]

You.

[A]

I. List isn't about, you know, they're just poking the bear. You know, they're just.

[D]

They bit.

[A]

They're watching this as a social experiment. And I bet. But I. You know, the. The verbal bear won't lay down. So anyway, so then Sam goes, yeah, it's great. You know, we. We. We have great now the number one podcast. And they. And says it. And I just see John get this eaten grin and look at me like, I just, like, dig. So, yeah, so with.

[B]

That's cool. What a cool event.

[A]

The comment without context. Seems like I got aggressive, which I did, but I was playing defense.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Everyone, I'm just very good. Just a sensitive soul that played defense.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

You know, tall bully. Just a sensitive soul. Just a sensitive little guy, you know? You know.

[B]

You know, as a good soul. Chris Eubanks.

[A]

Eubanks is the best we have.

[B]

Oh, we buried the lead.

[A]

You guys ready for some nerdy stuff? So Eubanks was here, and we just basically did two days worth of nerd outs. Right? And so we have a bunch of shows. A bunch of shows. Different types of shows. Different types of shows that we have. We have them.

[B]

They're called Evergreen.

[A]

They're called Evergreen. So we could be talking about any number of subjects in December that we haven't released yet.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And. And so we have Eubanks, and we're basically Eubanks. And I always get in these arguments. Like, not arguments, but we get in these discussions, and I feel like we call each other because we know the person's, like, been super ner. So we have the top forehands of all time, and that's what we're going to do. And we ended up doing it for, like, an hour.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

It was great.

[B]

And you're going to get it after the break.

[A]

Yeah. Everyone, welcome back to served Time to get nerdy. Chris Eubanks. And I'm not saying you're a nerd. I'm just saying we're gonna get nerdy.

[B]

We're gonna get really nerdy.

[D]

I hope Mike keep up. I'm excited.

[B]

He's, like, dressed like a school kid right now. Second.

[A]

Second career now. That's right.

[D]

Throwing on actual clothes. No sweatpants anymore.

[A]

That's it. I know. Like, you don't even have to dress for the job wide.

[B]

You can see. Andy agrees.

[A]

So true story. I walk in. I hit some balls this morning. I walk in, and Mike goes, like, unsolicited, like, just volunteered it. He goes, yeah. I mean, there's a bathroom over there if you want to change. I'm like. But, like, I haven't worn this every single time we've done any episode.

[D]

Does he usually wear the butt? Mike usually dresses. He usually dresses. So it's not like he tried to, you know, spruce it up a little bit.

[B]

I mean, I have to make an effort, you guys.

[A]

All right, so what we're gonna do, everyone loves a list. And Banks and I get into these conversations randomly when we're just either on text or talking in person, where it's like, best forehands. Why all these just things that I was like, we might as well just have one of those conversations, but with a camera on is kind of where we're at. So I think what we're gonna do is this episode. Banks, I'm gonna challenge you. I want your best forehands, and I'm gonna give you my best forehands and explain kind of the criteria of timing and all that we were talking about.

[B]

Cause I think it's interesting, the fact that you guys played in different eras technically. Right? Like, you were ACC Player of the Year in 2017. He was getting inducted into the hall of fame in 2017. So you guys have spanned different eras. But I think that is a good guideline for your guys own list is like who have you played but also who. Who kind of spans each other's arrows Because I think your guys tennis knowledge also you can talk about both your eras but for me when I talk to you guys about this and other people, I want to understand a little bit more about like the technology gap before we get into that.

[A]

Yeah, that all play that. We'll get into all that. So what. So is my cutoff. Let's just like I retired in 2012. Is that kind of my cutoff?

[B]

Ish. Yeah.

[A]

So I have the guys that I played and obviously some of those will leak into, you know, some of them played through 2020 or still. I mean I played Novak nine times and he's still going so I'm sure there'll be some crossover but he's not going to take, you know, Lendel and I'm not going to take center. Right. Is that the easiest way to explain it?

[B]

I think so. Right.

[A]

And let's get into it and let's. We're not ranking and we're just coming up with our.

[B]

No, no, it's not a rank. It's just your guys kind of like 5ish. Yep. No particular order.

[A]

In some honorable conversation.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Now how do we want to do it? One for one? Like I say one, he says one. Or do you want me just to lift my skirt up and then he does the same thing?

[B]

I think let's go one for one and see where it goes, you know, I mean, what do you think? What do you want to do?

[D]

I mean, I'm open to either one. I really want to get into the technology portion but I want to talk about the era even before you. Yeah, like that. That's one that I think the older generations a lot of times they, they get forgotten about or they get kind of just dismissed. But there's some names I think in that 80s 90s that need a bit of recognition and I think people need to have the preference.

[A]

I included those. If I have up till 2012, I was not going to leave out a lot of those guys.

[D]

Okay, all right. I'm excited. I'm excited about that.

[A]

Well, let's start there though because the one of the guys who was like the first absolute grim reaper thumper for him was Lendle.

[D]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Like, you know, that was the era where Mack was coming in. Connors was hitting flat but wasn't like just going rip city on every ball. Right. It was More of like a ball flight type thing. And Lemo comes in. He was the first guy people were coming in and he was just tattooing.

[D]

Him right in the chest. Barreling with no apology, just straight. Should just turn around and start the next point. And I always felt like Lindell's forehand was a bit of the precursor for Pete's forehand to segue into a similar technique. High elbow on the backswing racket head went up and could just absolutely rope it if you allowed them to extend. He couldn't not as much in here. Like Pete in the inside out forehand felt like he kind of would just elevate, but he would dare you to go into that do side. Like I try it. And the moment you would, he could go over there and because his back wing was so high, he could generate so much pace. So if I like. I agree Lindo, but I feel like Pete has to be in there because they're the set. They're. Yeah. I mean, which is kind of like the version 2.0 of Lindell. He didn't try to tattoo guys in the chest as much.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

But he had a rocket of a foreign. Especially on the road.

[A]

I feel like Lendel was the guy and no disability earlier because also he's one of the guys who was actually using a metal racket where you could actually create that sort of thing. Right. Whereas like you go to like a Vlos and he's not able to create the speed just because of technology. So Lindel was the first guy at least that I saw where guys were coming in and they actually had to protect themselves against passing.

[D]

100.

[A]

Just barrel 100 the ball. Obviously Pete was, you know, is. Is he just baited you. He's like, I'd actually like to be striding into this as I take your head off. And he would kind of protect the. The other one. That is like a no brainer and completely changed the game in my mind with how you set up and what kind of real.

[D]

See if you're going to say it. Jimmy Arias.

[A]

No.

[D]

Wow.

[A]

No. Arius is. I love Jimmy Arias. I also think tennis would look largely the same had he not played. Right.

[D]

I mean it's a fair point. It's just like the only reason I.

[A]

Threw Jimmy in there. You're gonna be mad at. You'll be mad at me for a second until I tell you my person. Then you're gonna be like, okay, that's a different. That's different. That's a different thing.

[D]

Okay, fair. The only reason I like to give Jimmy some type of credit is because every older coach that I had always highlights Jimmy. I didn't see it up close, and they just said he was ahead of his time.

[A]

Rip City.

[D]

He ripped the four. So, you know, I think, okay, Jimmy Harris must have had a nuke of a forehand. Everyone, unanimously of the older generation always gives him credit. So.

[A]

Well, Arias also, like, if you look at the way that he hit his forehand and then you're going, oh, my God. If you give this guy a tube of racket and you put Lux in there.

[D]

Yeah, true.

[A]

He would have been. He was. His forehand was too early for his technology, and he still went Rip City fair. Now I'm talking a little bit about this person got to number one in the world 14 slams.

[D]

Oh, I know who it is. Go ahead.

[A]

He would scoot left, and he basically took what Lendle did and then said, like, the inside out control the entire dynamic.

[D]

So much spin, too.

[A]

It was Jim Curry.

[D]

So much spin. Captain Curry.

[A]

And he took it, like, inside of the ball.

[D]

Like, he was able to just dominate that ad side of the court by just roping it just heavy.

[A]

I would. I would play him in, like, the senior tour events, like where tennis goes. Where good tennis goes to die. But, like, topspin.

[D]

Yes.

[A]

But he couldn't take that thing flat as a pancake. It would almost, like, sail into the corner. It would land up like a foot from the baseline and then just kind of eat up the court.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

And he would. I mean, he was the first one who was like, hitting that flat one as he was still falling.

[D]

Falling to the left.

[A]

Yeah. And I mean, he completely won two French Opens. You know, he was the first one to kind of mitigate that, you know, kind of high vamo spin and then just flatten it out and take him out on clay. Like, he changed the real estate and how you kind of had a. Had to manage it, I think, earlier than anyone.

[D]

And he was doing it with what, an 85 Pro staff. Well, that was like. Like, again, technology play the part. But I'm like. Like, I feel like Jim, you put him on a clay court with a bab taking that high balls like that, even I felt like what he final wimby like he. That side that you're talking about the ball just shooting through on a grass court.

[A]

You know, when you're good. Is Jim always when I'm with him is like, oh, man, I suck the guys now. Oh, yeah.

[D]

He's so humble.

[A]

He's like, I sucked on grass.

[D]

I'M like, you final Wimbledon, I go.

[A]

Your career best result at Wimbledon was the same as mine. Like, and I was good on grass. Like, don't take that away from me. If you're saying, you know that I suck too, like, we can't do that. But yeah, he made the finals on grass. He doesn't even like grass.

[B]

Have you hit with him with new technology. Does his ball still.

[A]

He's 20 years older, but like it's is for him. He just on top of being able to like rip city, right? Taking what Lendle did, his ability to just scoot his big ass into that left corner and then just kind of hold you there and you. Once he gets a hold of the rally, similar. Like when Rafa got a hold of a forehand, you weren't getting out of the pattern. He was kind of the guy to do that. Like, Andre can hit the inside out forehand, but he also wasn't trying to hide a backhand like Jim was. I mean, we, we talk about it all the time because we had this kind of a similar thing where I don't think we would say we were as talented as, as the guys we were trying to beat. He wasn't as talented as Pete. He wasn't as talented as Andre. He would tell you this, this isn't news. And we were both trying to hide weakness with our. With a forehand, right. And he just accepted it, did it and said, this is where I'm going to make hay Bomb first serve. Yeah, not enough credit for his first serve and a nasty kick.

[D]

Now, I was going to say that outside play that kick wide start off forehand and you can't get a row.

[A]

I mean, inside in like, like Lendel's Lendel courier. Pete Lendel especially. Like, if you look at his racket, small hits. It looks like a disgusting thing to try to hit a forehand with. Yeah, it looks horrible.

[D]

It's like a frying pan. It's like the size of like your skillet in your kitchen and just put that in a 10 tracking and go out and play five sets.

[A]

I would, I couldn't do that. I would rather get. I would rather get kicked in the nuts than try to hit a forehand with Lendel's forehand.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Like, it's not. It's not the one. So I'm glad you said go back a little earlier. Other one in there is. Is Agassi.

[D]

Like, okay, so I, I have a. This is a good conversation. I, I was going through some players in the list kind of last night preparing for this. And when I'm thinking about players on in their forehands, I felt like, correct me if I'm wrong, Andre wasn't. You didn't think forehand. It wasn't the first thing you thought. When you thought of Andre, you knew he could hurt you on both wings. I feel like you thought of the backhand, but I don't. Did you think of forehand when you thought of playing Andre?

[A]

Yes, because I played him. And here's the difference. We're giving Arias a lot of credit for his forehand. Right. Because it was a lot better than the rest of his game.

[D]

The rest of his game. You can't. You can't knock Andre for having a great backhand as well as a great forehand.

[A]

But also, like, this is an interesting conversation because how much do we value the ability to return off that side? He would pick you clean off. There were, like four guys on earth when I first started and could throw, you know, 140 at Adam who could hit over. This is like before Luxalon and could take full swings. It was like, Hewitt could do it, Saffin could do it, Andre could do it. But Andre, if he picked your serve right, would hit clean winners off of, like, the forehand side. That has to be a factor. Like, there's like. I know you're probably going to say like, Gasquet or like someone else when we get to backhands, but, like, if you serve massive to that side, they were floating a chip. It wasn't as if they were, like, firming it up. Like, where Roger, like, he'd firm. He would firm up a chip. And I think that factors in Andre's ability. He didn't need time on his forehand.

[D]

Yeah. Because he was also so close to the baseline.

[A]

You could. Like, my backhand wasn't good, but, like, I could firm one up middle and he could be on the baseline, have a backswing that was 6 inches long and pull it hard like he didn't need time. And that's a skill set. It's not when both feet are under you and everything is perfect and going rip city. His ability to hit it both ways, control the middle of the court, steer it. I mean, we can't punish someone's forehand because the backhand is, like, arguably one of the best two or three of all time.

[B]

Can you explain a little bit more about that positioning, being so close to the baseline and then having that short swing?

[A]

We have a conversation about Zverev a lot, and it's core positioning People used to, you know, the commentators would get on and be like, andy should play up on the baseline all the time. I need time on both wings. Like, just technically, I had a big backswing. So by virtue of that, if someone goes hot through there and I'm on the baseline. I struggled. Yeah, right. I couldn't turn it real quick.

[B]

Couldn't get it.

[A]

Like, no. Now if I had time and I could, like, set up, then I could give it a ride. Andre needed no time to. To turn or be aggressive. So he would hit a serve, you would stick a return. And if he had a forehand, it was. He could firm it up. He could be a foot inside the court, and if you didn't hit it on his shoe tops, he was injecting pace into the next ball and didn't need time to turn on it. Right. That matters. Like a complete forehand. Not a. Not a perfect scenario forehand, which I feel like a lot of people get carried away with some names and they say, well, this guy hit it harder than anyone. Like, yeah, everyone can hit it varying degrees of hard. If everything. Like, it's not a fed ball drill where you're feeding out of a basket and people are just, you know. You know, it's not a driving range.

[B]

Yeah. It's like a second basement in, like, batting cages.

[A]

100%. Andre is on my list for forehand. I hear what you're saying, but there's no chance I'm going to punish him because his backhand was as good as his forehand. He needed no time. He could inject pace. His pocket was from a foot above his shoulder. He to his shoe tops like you couldn't find. It's not as if, like, you got it up on this side and you were safe and you were. Yeah, yeah.

[D]

There was no guys like that.

[A]

There was no place safe. I could hit a nasty slice serve on the deuce side. And if he picked now, he guessed a lot in return.

[D]

He did get. You can go back and watch some of those old videos and you see there's. But there comes that one or two.

[A]

Service games, he was the equivalent.

[D]

He gets on it. Second serve, first point of a game. Now you feel tight. Level 15.

[A]

If he read it and missed a return, you felt relief.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Like you couldn't beat him with pace. If he actually picked the right spot now, he would guess because his wingspan wasn't like a. Like a Novak or a Murray. Right. So he wasn't going to, like, swallow up all the real estate. But if he picked it Right. It's like a hitter looking for a pitch and if they get that pitch, you didn't miss it. But like I, there's no chance that his forehand isn't one of the most complete forehands.

[D]

Yeah. I mean, in history. It's fair. So I watched later career Andre. I've gone back and watched video and, and I've seen. What's so funny to me is seeing the transition of early Andre using the Prince graphite.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

And then realizing that I was using a Prince graphite, I'm assuming probably with like Pro Blend or some type of. Yeah, like that. Which is insane.

[A]

For those of you who don't know what Pro Blend is, basically go, go drive out to the countryside today. And when you look at a wire fence, basically imagine that being strung in a tennis racket. Yeah. It's pretty much what, what it is.

[D]

And then you go to 2005 and he's using modern technology, Luxalon. And I'm like, when we talk about certain all time greats transcending generations within making the adjustments, that's one of the things that gets talked about. When we talk about players from previous generations, we always say, oh well, they would have figured it out, they would have made an adjustment. Andre is a great example of someone who started in one era, totally different from the way the training was done, diet the level of professionalism and just continue to be great all the way to 2005 where he played fed in the final. So it's like, yeah, the guy was playing in the 80s and he played Roger. It's pretty insane.

[A]

He was maybe, maybe the only one from like 80s through that kind of was able to adapt. But also I personally think he's the best ball striker in history. You know, maybe we're getting there with Sinner or Novak. Like they don't square it up. But like, it's just as far as like, you see him, I was with him two days ago and he was, we were doing this little dumb corporate pickle thing, pickleball thing. And he gets it in his pocket with a pickleball and just like if it's in his pocket now, his pocket is smaller because he doesn't, you know, his, his hips have been bad for 20 years now. I mean his ability to just create and like inject into it if it's in a zone is just absurd. So maybe we can argue, you know, someone else is there, but there's no one who's like head and shoulders above as far as ball striking. And I think you have to have a talent like that to transcend generations. Generations.

[D]

And yeah, technology you can give him.

[A]

He's so talented with his racket and the ability to create. You give him pro blend. You give him lux, you give him gut. Like, there are a lot of guys who got swallowed. I struggled in the middle of my career going with, like, when guys got to all Polygon in my stroke production was trained from the time I was little with. That's not.

[D]

That's huge the way.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

What were they getting? More power, more spin? Like it's. Or you're just able to control the ball.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

More now a little bit of everything.

[A]

Everything.

[D]

The part that he said in the beginning is about the way that your strokes are kind of constructed from the time you start. Tennis is huge. Like, you look at Pete's technique and Lindell's technique, like, their strokes were made for small square inch head, heavier rackets, small headset, flat hitting and just being able to. If I get this racket on the ball and I can get the momentum going, it's a club and the ball is shooting through. I don't think Pete and Yvonne would start those same mechanics if they started playing tennis in 2000.

[A]

No, you don't.

[D]

That just. You can get a little bit more wrist into it. You can kind of maneuver the ball and create angle, create spin. So the stroke mechanics that started at your. At the beginning of their careers goes all the way through the end. And for Andre to have that type of stroke mechanic with Pro Blend and then end his career with Luxalon and still able to. He could control the ball and do anything he wanted. He could have.

[A]

He could have controlled it with a Louisville Slugger. He just. So anyways, I know that he's not. He doesn't get put in the forehands list. I'm like, I don't get that at all. He. One of the best forehand returns of all time. The ability to eat up real estate and not be pushed off of it. He didn't need time to do whatever he wanted to do. So, like, he's on there for me and pretty pretty easily.

[D]

Okay.

[A]

Someone from my generation who would just hit clean winners like you, You. You. You would be playing against him, and you would know if you didn't hit a ball perfectly to that side, there was a chance that you weren't going to see the ball again, and he would just wipe it out. Like, the ability to hit winners and the long levers of this guy Del Potro's forehand.

[D]

Ah, you Know it well.

[A]

Oh, dude, you would hit like a, you would stick a chip. Like a lot of times when people have like a massive swing and take back, you can hit like rush it. Well, you can hit like a silly. If you stick a chip, they don't, they don't catch up to it. It comes off a little squirmy. His ability to take that lever and at the last minute take a chip that you just knifed inside out and then he just sweeps it cross court. I mean he would just, there would be sets where, you know, he hit nine forehand winners. You know, I remember playing him in D.C. one time and it was 2009, I just lost the Wimbledon final and we were playing in the finals of D.C. it was hotter. It was like standing on the sun that day. You know, one of those days in D.C. and he was, he was struggling. Like we got to the third set and I was in like great physical condition. I'm guessing he had probably just come from somewhere else and you could see he was struggling. He hit. We're in a third set breaker. He hit nothing but first serves first and seconds didn't double fault. And then I knew he couldn't move. He could not move. And I hit a couple like I hit a serve. And he would just, he was literally just waiting back hit 4, 4 hand winners on just slaps. I lose the match. You know how annoying it is to lose the match and then walk into the locker room and listen to the guy cramp for two hours. There's nothing. And I could have played another three sets. Like, oh man, it was the worst. But he could just. And it's like I'm sitting there going, he can't move. And if he gets a forehand, I might not see it again. Like his forehand, one of the heaviest, biggest shot. I mean he would play like big three. He was one. And if he doesn't get hurt. Yeah, I don't know that he has the volume of Murray because his body didn't cooperate. But he, he along with Murray are, and Walrinka are probably the only guys that I've, I saw where on their best day they could take the racket out of the big three's hand with, with, with a weapon.

[D]

I, I would throw prime, prime team at, at various points in his career because I felt like he was one of the guys who had the power off both his forehand backhand just roping. But like the, the consistency that Delpo had, like even when he was out all of that time with the Wrist.

[A]

Injury, come back and get back to him.

[D]

He came back and was like top five in the world again. And it was like he could just sit out and not the best. He was a good mover for the, for big guys, but not a good defender like he was.

[A]

And we'll get into this maybe in another episode, we'll do probably best movement. But like, there are guys who are really fast and there are guys who hit well on the run.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

So like Delpo is never going to be accused of being faster or having great, great foot speed. But even when he was extended, like he could be the ball could be three feet, he was able to still inject something into it. So he was great at hitting on the run, but not a great mover.

[D]

Right.

[A]

Which kind of should play into all of that. But Delpo had like a wipeout for him.

[B]

Can you explain a little bit more about that? So you're saying on the run he would still be able to generate the same pace and control.

[A]

Yeah. If he was off, off platform. There are some guys who are like the fastest guys ever. Like, James will listen to this and he'll be pit. But like, James would try to hit his way out of defense. Right. So you didn't feel his speed as much because it wasn't as if he was like clawing a ball back. Even though, like in a hundred yard dash he would, he would lot me. Right. But he didn't use his defense as much. Delpo, even when he was extended, could like pinch a backhand, get back into the court. Like he was really good on the run as opposed to being fast. Like, James would lap him. And Delpo wasn't anywhere near as good a mover as James. But James, you didn't feel his defense because he just refused to play it. Sometimes Delpo could actually play defense and get back in. And you felt like he was like lurching and lunging, but like you were still kind of neutral.

[B]

And then he would get back to that forehand.

[A]

Yeah. It was like super annoying.

[D]

Another thing too, with the running forehand. A lot of times when players are running, they're defending, so they're a little bit behind the baseline, which means they got a lot more court distance to work with. So they can. Like, Delpo used to have some crazy hard, flat running forehands, but if you look at it, a lot of them were when he was seven, eight feet behind the baseline. If he, with that big backswing, knows he's got an extra 7, 8ft to work with on the other side, he could just let it go. And so it's a little bit like we talked. We've talked a little bit about Medvedev, how that ball traveling at such a long distance. Daniil doesn't hit it as hard. If you add Delpo's speed to that type of, like, depth behind the court, when you're the opponent and it's coming in, you're like. And then you're stuck trying to lift it. So Delpo, could he use that to his advantage? He didn't defend well, but he could run. He could measure his steps, he could run them down. And because he was eight feet behind the baseline, he's like, I got another eight feet on the other side of the court to work.

[A]

He was strong enough to actually just do it. Well. He was also, like you talked about, Every person we've mentioned so far was great at timing their stride. Yeah. Like, they didn't get pinched when they were on the run. They weren't like. It was like he would time. You know, ball gets. He gets pulled to his forehand. Doesn't like playing defense. Three long steps, and on that third step, boom, he would just inject pace into it, and it would like. And he was strong enough to Chris's point to get it to sail five or six feet further when he needed to. So, like, he's not fast, but you. You didn't really, like, feel like he didn't come up with a lot of points because he was slow. Yeah, you know, he was. His levers were so long, and he was. He was an intelligent mover, if not a fast one. Right. But he's in there. And then I think probably two that will cross over. Obvious. Maybe the two best forehands in history are Roger and Rafael, but for completely different reasons.

[D]

Yeah, I agree. I'm curious to. I love. I've studied Rodgers forehand so much, and he has. It's great the way that we outlined a lot of players of the previous generation. We talk about the players now being like a compilation of the big three or the big four. Rogers forehand had the ability to take time away and catch the ball early. Like Andre, he can redirect you right off the baseline, right off the short hop. He had a great running forehand like Pete, even like Delpo. And I felt like Roger just had the variety. Whereas if he wanted to go short, cross off the court and swing you that way, and then redirect a bunt up the line when the whole course he could do everything, it wasn't a one Dimensional boom. You know, some guys have just massive forehands. It wasn't that it was so big. It just. It made you feel so rushed, and it took so much time away.

[A]

There's a couple things he didn't like. When Delpo laid into one, you felt heat. Like, you didn't really feel heat with Roger. His ability to. He's like. Is like Maddox. Like, his ability to. You put it on a shoe, tops to perfect spin, play it up, it flutters up on your backhand. Like, his racket control when he was beat was so annoying. Like, he could flip. Not like Andre, where he's, you know.

[D]

Injecting pace, firming it up.

[A]

Yeah. He could get out of it with one. So let's. Let's, like, play a hypothetical point like he serves. You stick a return middle, he flutters one up to your like, and people don't even realize what he's just done.

[D]

If they're watching on tv. You have no idea how hard that shot is. Like, because the height that he's creating.

[B]

It just makes it look so smooth.

[A]

But then he. Then he. It's not an accident. So I stick it. Let's say I pull it off. I actually succeed in what I'm trying to do on a return. He off of his, you know, ball could be behind him. Little racket movement. He'll flip it up to where it's fluttering high on my backhand. And he knows running. He knows that I can't punch him out from there.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

So then all of a sudden, he either pulls the string, but he can go this little flutter one. And if I don't hit that next backhand, well, to Chris's point, he's taken an angle where he's made up six feet, and now he's three feet inside the court. He's here, and I'm all of a sudden stuck, and I don't know if he's going. You got to guess forehand or backhand. And at the last second, like, he.

[D]

Could be going here.

[A]

And then if you move, he would hold it. He would, like, wait and then just lay. So he had more winners at 40 miles an hour, where you look so stupid and everyone else just thought you were an idiot, and it's like you don't understand what just happened.

[B]

Do you have an exact point in mind? Are you reliving one right now?

[A]

I mean, 12 years of them.

[B]

Is there a second or many?

[A]

Yeah, but the thing that I think he did better than anyone else was not take your time away with pace, but with the angle to the ball. Yeah, he never, ever took a bad angle, especially against people that couldn't create the speed or the depth of a Rafa or a Novak. They were able to kind of neutralize him in very different ways. But, like, against normies, you know, he'd hit a serve, and if you. He could see it immediately, if you didn't hit it perfect and it was.

[D]

Going to be short, he was.

[A]

He was. He was kind of inside the court and had you both ways, and it was like, pick your poison at that. But, like, the recognition off your racket in the ability to use his forehand and also in stride. Like most people, they move, they set, and then they go. He could be, like, falling this way, and he would, like, almost, like, walk into his forehand. Either way, he could hit it without his feet being set and still take, like, a full swing. So it's like he's beating you with three steps inside the court, and then he's beating you with another step or two, because he doesn't need both feet to be set to actually do something with it. I mean, he could be moving left and lay it off right. He could be moving right and, like, hit it either way, flat line, or, like, he's saying, pull it off the court. So you were constantly in this thing where you didn't. You could never fully commit when you were on defense.

[D]

And I want to talk about the thing you said about taking time away again, Mike. So when I was growing up, coaches would always tell you, the ball lands short, you want to move your feet up to it to take time away so you don't have to hit it harder and take more risk. You just get the same effect by limiting your opponent's ability or time to have to react. But what happens is when you take a line to the ball and you're running almost to it or at an angle, as opposed to letting it come back, you're taking time away from yourself. So it's like, there's a catch 22 there. There's a. There's a point where it's like, I need to take time away, but I don't want to get caught hitting the ball too close to my body. I still want to be able to extend to the point of, like, what Andre did super well, what Roger was able to kind of manage those hard balls at his feet, redirect. Like, I've talked to a lot of really good players with really good forehands, and we always talk about Roger's right foot when he got Inside the court, using that right foot to take it line or take it cross. He made it look so easy. And then you get on the practice court and you're like, hey, let's rep some. Like, sir, like feed one coming in at an angle. I'm going to cut the angle. And even in feeding, it's tough to time it. And you don't have pressure, you don't have wind, you don't have anything. It's like that's just a tough shot to do. And he made it look so easy to the point where you had like 14 year olds like myself in practice trying to just charge balls to take time away. But now maybe we're missing it long because just like Delpo had eight extra feet to hit into. When Roger takes time away, he's got like three or four less feet. He's trying to get the ball over the net and down and be in position. And he just. You turn it on and you look, you go. It looks way easier than it actually is.

[A]

So he could beat you for pace. He could beat you with angles to the ball. So court positioning. And then he also had this annoying thing that made you look so stupid. He could like he would set and then he would take like almost like a, like a, like a bluff step. Right. So like if I'm coming, if I'm coming up, like, I don't know, let's try it. So if I'm, if I'm, if, if he's coming in here, right? And normally you kind of run through the shot and hopefully we get this on one of them. He would kind of act like he was running through, give you a stutter.

[D]

Step, make you move to where you.

[A]

Would kind of set like this and then like your knees would buckle and then he would like bite it off. So he was, he was bluffing. You, like the ability to cut off the angle. So that's one thing you had to deal with. He could hit it flat or like he had it. People don't talk about how spinny he could hit his forehead.

[D]

Yeah, man, when I practiced with him, I was shocked.

[A]

And he could hit it like he could swing full and it would have like this little flutter. Yeah. Like it was absurd. So he could inject pace and then he would bluff you with his footwork. Like you would be here and he would take like a stutter step and see where you kind of fell or committed to. And then he would like turn it the other way. I'm like. So when you're in, in stride, when.

[D]

You'Re on the other end of that type of, like, stutter step with someone holding it. You in tennis, same thing with returning a serve. Returning any shot.

[B]

Yeah.

[D]

You get in a cadence and a rhythm of your opponent's timing of their swing. So, you know, ball bracket goes up, down, swing. And over the course of a match, you're seeing that over and over, so you kind of get a feel for the cadence. Same thing with the serve how some servers can change their toss. Go quick, toss. Go higher, toss. It disrupts the timing of, like, when is the split? There's a split now. I can go. Well, when that timing gets disrupted on a short forehand, and you're thinking, okay, split. Wait, he's not hitting. He's not hitting. And now you're kind of. And he's just waiting to see you're a little bit off balance or you. You commit overly. You just commit to. I'm guessing this way. I'm guessing this way. He'll just do that step, get a look out of the corner of his eye, roll it over there 40 miles an hour, and you're kind of like, well, what do I do? So.

[B]

So everybody else on the list, it sounded like it was. It was a lot of power. It was a lot of, like, being my takeaway. Everybody else on the list sounded like a lot of it was, like, power and, like, being, like, almost so perfect at what their forehand is. But here it sounds more that he was able to be perfect, but subtly perfect in multiple ways.

[D]

Multiple different ways.

[A]

Like, the variety. I don't know that anyone's ever had, like, more variety. Yeah, like, and. But all. And then the last one on the list is change the. Well, and then I have a. I have an asterisk next to one. Just based on.

[B]

Before you get to Rafa, you have an asterisk next to somebody.

[A]

I. I do. Rafa is obviously the guy change tennis with. No one's ever hit it harder with more spin. Yeah, it jumps like you would play a professional player who hit it hard, heavy, and you're like, man, that's a lot. And then you play Rafa, and it's just different. He changed everything. Nobody could attack Roger Slice before he came along. Like, and then all of a sudden, Roger Slice, someone can actually create and inject, and. And it's not risky. Like, it. It. It spins. He changed. Rafa changed everything. And he's one of the guys who grew up with that string.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

So we're seeing this.

[B]

This.

[A]

This freak of an athlete who can create this Speed has this magical ability. And then someone gave him the wand.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

The cheat code that makes his already insane skill 40% better. Right. And then he can just hold it. Like, people, like, I don't understand why people don't come in anymore. It's because of, like, Rafa. Yeah. Like, how are you going to come in? You have to be so perfect. How are you going to. The only time, I mean, I would serve volley against him. Because that's your best approach. Yeah, yeah. Like you couldn't on a first serve. But, like, you come in, if he has any time, whatever he's creating, the ball is tumbling by the time it gets to you. So you can't just hit a straight flat volley.

[C]

You.

[A]

You have to actually kind of get under it and then stick it enough to where he doesn't have enough time to do it again. And he can hit it off both. He can create that spin off both. Both. We're talking about forehands right now. But he can do it off both wings. He's a natural righty. How annoying is that? It's absurd. Like, he throws headbands into the crowd right handed after everything.

[D]

Righty. And then it's a joke when you, when you talk about why players don't come in anymore. I've, you know, as a player who tries to come in a lot, you know you're going to get passed and. But I've worked with a lot of coaches who would always. We were talking about the position, like, oh, you come in, you shade this way so that look, if they hit it here, you're one step here or you're two step here. And I go, it's not that I can't touch the ball. It's not the, like, touching the ball isn't a problem. If I come to net, I can get a racket on most of them. It's the ball's dipping and now I'm having to like, carve at it and create spin. Because just holding it flat, the ball's just going to play my racket. So it's not just, oh, can I touch here, touch here. It's like, no, that ball is. They can go right at the center net, strap. The ball drops below the level of the net. I'm a sitting duck if I don't hit it. Execute a perfect volley.

[A]

Yeah. Also, this is a side tangent because we're supposed to be on forehands. But to your point, when you come in and you're playing these guys who can create this speed off of both sides. People like, I can't believe he's missing volley. No, you're missing volleys. It's the same because you have to take risk. You have to stick them. Otherwise you're dead. I could go out today and play like, I could not miss a volley for an hour. Right. Maybe that's a stretch. I could not miss a volley. I could not miss hardly any volleys if all I had to do was make them anywhere. Like, that's not the point. If you're out of position and Rogers, you know, coming, and you have to create something, not only do you have to make it, you have to stick it to where you're out of position. You're giving up the entire court if you don't hit it well, they're just picking you off easily.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

So it's like, I can't believe you missed that volley. It's not about the volley. It's about doing enough with the volleyball to where it's not instant death if you don't hit it perfectly. Like, it's all. And you have to make these decisions within half a second. But like Rafa, there's no more depressing place to be. And we've talked about Roger's ability in the middle of the court. Rafa hits this Tumblr to your back end like it's going away from you. The hardest shot to redirect is a backhand line. For most people, it's going away from you, so you have to pull the outside of it a little bit. So even if you want to hit a line, like, you have to hit.

[D]

Aim almost like middle.

[A]

You have to hit it perfect. Otherwise he's getting another forehand. Yeah. Okay, now what's the other option? Stick at cross court, because if you leave it short, you're dead. He would. He was able to get on that, like, back left leg. And all of a sudden, you're obviously check stepping left because you have to protect the big ball going away to your. Your back inside right. You always have to protect that. When you knew he was playing well and he was just like, you'd be like two all in the first set somewhere, and he would lean back on that leg. He'd hit two here, and then the third one, you're here, and he would wait till the last second, you would have the check step, and then he would just go and just rip city line. He would hit a winner. And he would also have. He would hit a winner that was four feet inside the sideline and a foot past the service line. Purely just because he knew that you had to protect the spin on the backhand side. And you knew it was coming, but you didn't know when.

[D]

Yep.

[A]

And so like he, he basically just takes all the strategy out of it.

[D]

And what's amazing too about th, those one off forehand lines, I'm sure you know it cause you experienced it playing them. It doesn't take that many of them before it messes with your mind as the opponent. Because you're always anticipating, he's going to my backhand, he's going to my backhand. He's going to my backhand, he's going to my backhand. He nails you with one forehand line that you can't even make a move for and you're like, that's open, that's open the whole time. And then he may win the belt, he may not hit that shot again for another game or two. But in your mind now you're kind of shading back this way so the ball to the backhand is more effective. And you're so far out now he may go lying. Oh no, he's going back out. So he could just kind of use it as sparingly. Just boom, one line to kind of set the tone, let you know that it's there. And then now I just opened you up to just keep going back to your backhand over and over and over and over again. And then obviously gets better competition, better players. He had to use it a bit more to kind of keep them off balance. But for the most part he just knew I can hit my forehand into your backhand and that is going to be my recipe for success. Now I do think Rafa was a better tactician, especially later in his career, than maybe a lot of people will give him credit for. It's a conversation for another day. But that for the basis of his game and those early stages were used to the roof. It was just like rinse and repeat for a lot of guys.

[A]

And he had his base setting. Like if he wasn't confident in this forehand and he wasn't ripping on like a faster court, if the court was like this tabletop and I could get it back and actually through the court, then you know, he wasn't going to do. I played him at Indian Wells and it was like, you try to get through that court, he just waits, he goes and he's beating me by six feet. Like I'm like, this sucks. Like then you get on a fast court. But his base offering, if he's not hitting that One line is this thing that's up over your head and there's.

[D]

Not much you can do.

[B]

You were just saying that before when you were describing and the people listening wouldn't be able to understand. But you're pointing up over your shoulder, down at your head.

[A]

No, but it's moving away and it's.

[B]

Moving away from you.

[A]

Explain a little bit in order to get it. Like, if you hit it like this, it's just gonna.

[B]

You're hitting a foul ball, you're losing all your power. You're just trying to.

[A]

But also like, think about. He hits one of those balls. Line. Where at the last second he's able to manipulate it and just send it line. That instantly makes his base offering better. Because instead of cheating fully, all of a sudden you have to respect it. Like Chris is saying. So he's going, okay, I have him here. And now this one is a little bit more open just because we both know what I just did to him. So this one's going to be open and he's going to. They're going to have to respect this one too. It's like, pick your poison.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

At. At that point.

[D]

So I love watching some of the court level points of tennis because I think to your point, you get to see the spin and how the ball reacts off the court. Because when you're in the high up camera angle, it looks like they're just kind of playing ping pong. Like the ball's just going right there in the strike zone. There's another one right in the strike zone. Another one right. And then you get the camera where it's low and you see, oh, that serve was up above the shoulder. He made it look like it was easy to handle or whoever it is. So, yeah, that ball of not just being up, but up and away and how your body has to kind of hit the ball. And now your body may be a little further out of position because you had to kind of run through it. Now there's more court open. So there's so many factors at play.

[A]

Yeah. And Rafa, obviously, his ability to like once he runs around and it's like the opposite. Oh, man, you would be. So you'd have that back end where you're either trying to hit a cross court firm. If you tried to go line and you missed it and it like. Because you have to get the outside of the ball. So sometimes. And by missing it, I mean hitting a great ball and it being a little more middle than you want. He's getting another forehand and he's sending you this way inside out. Like, his ability to quickly get around, I mean, and just look for that ball. And his footwork, different types of footwork wasn't like inside the court like Roger, but his ability to get the ball he wants all the time was, like, unparalleled.

[D]

As a guy who used your slice a lot, were you ever able to get slice to his backhand? You couldn't find the backhand only if.

[A]

You went really short.

[D]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, near the service line area.

[A]

Then again, he's a natural righty. So, like, like your reward for hitting a great slice short is the fact that he's going to get up there with two hands and his backhand cross. He would rip it. He loved hitting that shot. So your reward was dealing with one of the best backhands in the world.

[D]

Yep. You know, Sebi Korda, we were talking one time, and Sebi goes similar to the Andre thing, he goes, Rafa's forehand gets so much credit, but I don't think people realize just how great his backhand is. But that's the thing. If it weren't for his forehand, we would look at Rafa's backhand as one of the best in the history of tennis.

[A]

You can't get away from. He hits a cross. He didn't like hitting it. I mean, he could pass. He could do all of these things. But his pa, like the fact how he could pass on, like, the full stretch with that right hand on the outside, but if you left one hanging to that side, you knew where it was going. He was going to send it cross court to your forehand, and it didn't matter. Like his. His base offering maybe more than anyone in history. If he was executing it, it didn't really matter. Yeah, like, he could take his base offering and apply it to Novak. He could apply it to Roger where, like, the greatest players in the history of the game had to react. The leftiness is a huge part of it. Yeah, right. But the way his ball tumbled, you had to adjust to him way before he ever had to adjust to you. Right. Like, there was just. You had to shorten his footwork. And also, like, it needs to be said, every single person on this list, 10 out of 10 footwork.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

It's hard to have a great forehand if you have sloppy footwork or a great any shot. Like all of these guys, courier those little half steps, Lendle the long strides into it. Del Potro, the same thing. Like, not someone you would think about, but Never really off balance hitting a shot, even if you went through him. Roger, Rafa, like, I think it's a non negotiable to have elite footwork if you want to have one of the best given shots of all time.

[D]

Yeah. And being able to hit it well on the move, which I think Rafa has some incredible highlights of his running forehand. We talk about Pete, we talk about Roger, but I think we got it. Like, for some, I don't know if it's because he's a lefty. There's certain things about Rafa's game we kind of don't maybe appreciate as much. We're just like, oh, he's a lefty. But some of the running forehands that he was able to produce on the outstretched passing shots like 12ft behind the base. It was a joke.

[A]

If you're on a clock, he hits it from nine to three.

[D]

It was a joke.

[A]

Like, you can't. Like, how do you can cover line? You could be sitting on the line and he could pass you because it goes, you know where I'm going. Because it'll be three feet outside the line.

[D]

You gotta cover the alley.

[A]

It's a banana.

[D]

You can like commit to. I'm gonna hit this alley volley.

[A]

It's in the alley until it's not two feet before it bounces. And then it curves like it curves back like a 710 split in bowling.

[D]

Like, it's exactly.

[A]

It's absurd. I have a couple more. I have an asterisk next to CUZ 2012 was a cut off.

[D]

Okay.

[A]

Novak's forehand got way better over time.

[D]

It did now 11.

[A]

It was almost prime now up till.

[D]

2012, you think 11 was prime?

[A]

No, I'm saying not prime. I'm sorry. He had an unreal year in the life.

[D]

His year was incredible.

[A]

Correct. But his forehand, early, way bigger swing.

[D]

Yeah. Technically, you could see it like, it's so different now.

[A]

His forehand, I think, is one of the best of all time. And similar to Andre and Rafa. Like, you give the back end credit, so you ignore one thing. I think he has one of the best forehands all time. If I had to pick a top five or top six, he would probably be on it. But if you're cutting me off at 2012, I don't think his forehand in 2012 was as good as the people that we just mentioned.

[D]

I don't think that's a controversial take at all, so.

[A]

But it's not as if. Because we're going to get Novak going. Wait for the comment section. It's amazing how I like, I. People like, you hate him. You give him too much credit. I'm like, which one is it?

[D]

To me, that seems you're fair. You take that. If you're getting hate from one side and love on the other, you're like, all right, I'm going.

[A]

I'm. I'm happy you're doing Alcaraz and Sinner, because they're getting shitty now, too. I'll tell you.

[D]

But.

[A]

So that's the only reason that Novak isn't on my list is because I was given a 2012 cutoff. So happy that that at least to the same person in my ride, doesn't seem controversial. A couple of, like, just honorable mentions that aren't on this list, but, like, they just need to be talked about. Robin Soderling could mash the ball like another guy.

[D]

Big guy, big backswing, kind of similar.

[A]

To no pocho, but, like, he would. He would come and just. Mike. Mike's literally. It's the first time he's ever heard his name. I've never heard that name before. He beat Rafa at the French prime. Rafa, okay. 45 degrees and wet, rainy. Only person on earth that could hit it through the court that day. Six foot five, early exit, like, had some issues, but, like, for two or.

[D]

Three years, dude, nobody wanted to play.

[A]

That guy hit it so hard off his serve. He wasn't. I mean, I don't want to be hyperbolic. Top two or three most powerful players I ever played. Now.

[D]

Both wings, too. He had power on both wings.

[A]

Not fast, couldn't move all of the nuance. This was basically, I'm going to hang back and send every ball. And he would, but so he didn't. We're not talking about the nuance, the different shot shapes. That wasn't it. His was, walk into the middle ring, and I'm going to take your head off. Yeah, he could send it. Fernando Gonzalez, like, he's on every list. His forehand when he had two feet set, was one of the biggest I'd ever seen. Yeah, but you could. You could serve there, right? You could. You could play offense to that side. So he was on, you know, some guys, and he was, like, number one on his list. Yeah, I love Fernando. Fernando's a great friend of mine. He's not on this list. He may be one of the biggest forehands of all time, but that doesn't mean.

[D]

To me, biggest does not translate to being the best 100.

[A]

Like, only person this side of Andre who could create if he picked the right side and had no backswing.

[D]

Oh, I know exactly where this is going. James right there. Gotta be James. Like, gotta be James. Similar technique to just rock the racket back.

[A]

So annoying.

[D]

Had no problem with guessing overturns.

[A]

It was just also knew because we're like, James is one of my best friends in the world. I knew we would be playing, and it's like, 30 all break point. Like, I'm like. He knew that all I wanted to do is challenges for him, and all he wanted was to get one.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

And if he picked one off, it pissed me off so much because I would look away, and I just knew he had that eating grin on his face. Like, I just knew it. I knew he was giving me, like, that smirk. But he could create as much speed with no time or backswing. I mean, he was. He would hit forehands before it was like, normal 100 miles an hour.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Off of a sir. Off of a first serve.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, would just crank the US Open.

[D]

Match point. Always stays in my mind. On. It was either grandstand or arms. No, I think it was grandstand.

[A]

I think it was. I don't know. I know exactly what you're talking about. It's one of his last years. I was joking.

[D]

Hit him forehand return winner right up the middle of the court. Guy couldn't even move. Could not take a step serve ball by amazing.

[A]

It was like, no time off of two feet, like, to just. And he could take the racket out of people's hands. Like, he would just. He had no time on the back. He could do it on the back inside, too, with one hand.

[D]

He actually had a surprise. Like, he used to do okay against Rafa at one point in his career because Rafa had no rhythm. James was okay with make, miss, make, miss. And he beat him in Indian Wells, I think.

[A]

So. He beat him in the US Open, too.

[D]

He did beat him in the opener. Yeah, yeah. No, it's. It's James. He used to frustrate Rafa just because Rafa couldn't get that rhythm. And James was just taking cuts. He couldn't. James wouldn't allow the backhand or the forehand to get above his rough. His forehand to get above his backhand. So he would just take a step inside the baseline, try to go line. If he makes it, he's like, great. If I don't. Next point.

[A]

James was. He had this ability, and, like, I still to this day, don't know if it's the best thing or the worst thing ever. He had this ability to like, he would think about. And you talk, talk about this because you just kind of finished and just talk about like the mental part of this. He would be like, it was like the most Harvard thing ever for him. He'd be like, okay, it's a 12 month season, right. I'm going to take cuts the entire year. My best chance in like, on average, if I just take cuts all year, I'm going to catch a heater for six weeks a year and then I'm going to be seven in the world. He could for three weeks not make a ball. And he fourth week, I'm just going to rip again. That's impossible to do. Feelings out of it.

[D]

Yeah, yeah. I couldn't do that when I lost one or two in a row. I was changing everything.

[A]

I'd be pushing, making balls. I'd be like, I'm not going to take a cut until I can make.

[D]

Three in a row. Exactly.

[A]

But he was like calculated. Nope. I know what, like everyone who criticized, you know, you're the fastest guy. You don't play D. You don't. And he's like, no, this is my best chance. And I don't know. I don't think he was wrong.

[D]

No. He's four in the world. What are we going to expect him to have done more like, yeah, obviously you guys want to win Slams.

[A]

He didn't have a good second serve. Like, how is he going to protect a second serve? Like rip City? Like, I would have wanted him to play soft on that second. Like, I would have gotten into it. Yeah, but he would just take it out of your hands and be like, my results will be there. I'm going to make a finals of a master series event. I'm going to make a quarters of a slam. I'm going to, you know, win three tournaments. And here I am like, will I do that if I'm like ducking in and out of strategies?

[D]

Probably not.

[A]

Probably not. Like, I think I thought he was wrong until I thought he was right.

[D]

You look at the career and the body of work afterwards, you're like, you know what?

[A]

But he could. Like, he would. He was one of the only guys I could hit a buck 38 like T ad side and if he read it, it was by me. And I didn't even move. I was a. He's a mannequin maker. Like, he had an absolute monster also. So that's, that's my. I'm sure I forgot Someone, but, you know, for another day.

[B]

Let's take a break before we transition. Whatever, dude. Sometimes you got to pay the bills, idiot.

[A]

Welcome back to serve. Mike, can we.

[B]

We're back.

[A]

Are we allowed to go again?

[B]

Yeah, we're back.

[A]

Okay, good.

[B]

We checked all the boxes and paid the water bill.

[A]

Great. Fantastic. We just got through my list up until 2012. Ish. All right. It's up to you, Banks.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Get us home.

[D]

Yeah. 2012 forehands. Obviously, we spoke at length about Rafa. He's going to be in there. We don't really have to dig into that. Roger is also going to be in there. But I do want to talk about that as well, because that 2017 year, we saw a different type of Roger after he had to set out for injury. I think 2016, with the back set out for about six months. He came back in 2017. I think he went on an absolute tear that entire year, but it felt like he became more aggressive. Everyone talked about the backhand, but I think his forehand was even bigger. I think he was injecting more pace. He was doing everything he did in 2005, and he was flooding.

[A]

He was. He just was bigger.

[D]

Yeah, he was just committed to just playing way more aggressive, and it worked. So he made some. Some adjustments, but those two are still up there.

[A]

Side note, just real quick, while we're on that year, when we interviewed Rafa, he said, he goes for me. He goes for me. That was the best version of Roger that I had ever seen.

[D]

I said, I didn't play him, but I'm watching on TV, and then I go back and watch 05, and I'm like, dude, 17 Roger, like, beat. This is better than 05. Roger, like, from me, from the quality of ball, his ability to manage balls. On the backhand, he was so aggressive. I felt like in 2005, he did a lot of. It's just the speed was slower. It was slower. He didn't. He didn't have to defend as much.

[A]

I would have liked. I'll just tell you this because I think as far as, like, matchups go, like, the way he was playing Rafa, and Rafa even said that.

[D]

Yeah, it suited the way he.

[A]

It's because it's all matchups.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, true. All I would have wanted playing Roger was for him to take massive cuts on every ball. Really, 100%. I did not want him chipping. I didn't want to have to create for my shoe tops. I didn't want to. So I think matchups matter.

[D]

Okay.

[A]

I would have. All I would have wanted is for him. And my serve is different than Rafa's. Right.

[D]

Very true.

[A]

I would have wanted him swinging that backhand as hard as he could on every second serve. What I didn't want was for him to make 90% of his chips.

[D]

Okay.

[A]

So I do think matchups matter. I think the way that he was playing then definitely was the best matchup for Rafa at that time. But I think I'm curious to see what James would think. I'm guessing he would have wanted Roger to play out of his shoes also. Fair. Right. So I would have wanted him to play actually miss. Right. I did not want to have to create because I think in 05, he was the best offensive and defensive player simultaneously in the world. I think in 2017, I think he'd lost half a step. I thought, you know, the. The field had gained on. On weight of shot. Right. Everyone was hitting it bigger. So I think he had to play higher risk tennis. I would have. All I would have wanted was for him to take more risk when we played against each other.

[D]

Fair. Fair.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

All right.

[A]

Who else?

[D]

Okay. You know, go ahead and talk about the big two with Carlos and Janik. Obviously, I'm throwing those two in there. Carlos, to me, has the forehand of Roger, just with more spin, more firepower. He doesn't cut the angle off as much, but he. They're so similar. He can. He can get that ball to lift up and go high line. If he stretches you off the court on the do side, he can also just step in and just run around, dictate play out of the AD side and make it kind of tail off inside out. He can pick it up inside in. He has all of the variety on the forehand. And we talked a lot about Roger. Just slide Carlos in there. Just add a few MPH's and a few RPMs. I think it's kind of the big thing.

[A]

I think that that's the most similar comp.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Just based on footwork and everything we've seen. One thing I will maybe give Roger the tip of the cap is forehand return the ball. You should just melt into his racket. Like you couldn't rush him to his forehand return. Carlos is maybe a little bit bigger on that forehand return side, though. Maybe if you get like a Zverev injecting 140, you know, Roger can still firm that up. Pace didn't affect him.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, so if we're like splitting hairs, maybe, you know, Carlos is The newest version, and it's bigger. I think Roger probably had more control of the racket face at impact on, like, defending a massive serve.

[D]

Yeah, but that.

[A]

I mean, Carlos is an all timer, and he's. It's not the same in my mind, but the comparison is. Is similar. He's completely changed the game with. With. With his drop shot. Yeah, we've seen it forever. We know that it's there. It used to be an irresponsible shot, and now it's this thing where we talk. We've talked about how all of the greats make you pick your poison, whether it's Rafa's forehand line versus cross. You know, Roger, you have to defend and commit to a certain spot. And you can look dumb sometimes. Carlos. Okay, imagine you don't hit one perfectly, and he has two feet under him, right? So you have to defend simultaneously. He can hit it over 100 miles an hour both ways. So you got to defend 10ft to your right and 10ft to your left. You got to scoop back and able to do that. And then at the last second, he can just brush the racket underneath the ball, and then you have to defend the 25ft in front of you as well, all within a quarter of a second. Has completely changed everything with his ability to hit that shot on the run. Like, he'll be scooting left and play it, like, inside out. Like, you can't account for all of those options at one time. So if he executes, he will beat you.

[D]

Yeah. Yeah. I was talking to Jameer Jenkins about this last night about the drop shot in particular. And he says, you know, he talks to people still about tennis, although he's not in it anymore. And he was saying how people will ask him, you know, why does. Why do guys. They can't get the drop shot. Like, how is Carlos drop shot so effective? And he goes, imagine you got Mike Tyson right in front of you, and you're prepared to be punched in the face. Like, you're sitting there, you're bracing, you're tensing up, ready for that haymaker. And then he just pokes you in the side and kind of take. That's what the drop shot is. You're braced.

[A]

You're so prepared for this blow. I'll take it even further. What it's. The Tyson comparison is perfect, except he kicks you in the nuts. It's like, you're ready for this. Then he just goes, and you're like, that's what it is. It's like you have to Account for all of the options. That's what people miss about a lot of these things. Why can't you just get the drop shot?

[D]

Because you're thinking about this or that or this or that.

[A]

You have to account for all the pain points in a half a second. That's it.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

And 10ft, 10ft, 100 miles an hour. All directions have to back up four or six feet just to account for most of the options. And then he can slide the racket underneath the last second. You can't see it.

[D]

Y.

[A]

It's the same preparation.

[D]

Preparation is so strong.

[A]

It used to look different. Like you could tell people would, you know. You know, if Chris or I were hitting a forehand drop shot, you would.

[D]

Kind of see it last second.

[A]

You would know it a second before you would know it. Way before you would know with Carlos. Yeah. Like, even if we were trying to hide it, it's just that that racket work is. Is very different. I think he's kind of changed everything. And now you see Jannik starting to use it. He uses it when he's pulled to his forehand. He hits a cross court drop shot all the time. And he's using it against Carlos. I'm like, this is what rivalries are. This is why it's great. It's like these guys are just copycatting each other.

[D]

Yeah. And then that was a great segue into Jannik and Jannik's forehand. It's funny how you gave honorable mention to Novak and obviously how his forehand kind of progress later in his career. I think his forehand is incredible. Center has that. Like, he doesn't have the variety of the Roger. He doesn't have. I don't know if he doesn't have. He doesn't have the one, like, in particular for him, like the inside out of Courier. He doesn't have, like, the one. He just hits all of them. Nine out of ten. Ten out of ten shot quality. And so it's like just jab after jab after jab after jab. And it's like, in a way, a little.

[A]

It's almost like body blows, though.

[D]

It was kind of. I was thinking, like, Rafa. Rafa's different. Cause he has a spin that gets out of your strike zone. But. But in terms of the margin, he's not hitting it that close to the line. He can dig when he finds one. He can keep you on the run and just kind of keep you off balance with it. But there's nothing about it that is. Let me slow it up. You're like 12. Just, boom, boom, cross line, doesn't matter. Yep.

[A]

But also talk about this, because if I'm seeing Jannik Sinner and I'm playing against him and I don't know who he is. Right. But I see the technique, and I see that. That lag. And by lag, I mean like that layoff. Right. He creates so much speed because that wrist goes back and he's able to, like, time it through. If I see that when I'm playing, I'm going, okay, I'm a rush it. Correct.

[D]

I'm a rush it.

[A]

I can get to that side with that lag. Because there's no one that can time it up perfectly off of pace.

[D]

Yep.

[A]

Except for Jannik Sinner.

[D]

Yep.

[A]

The ability for him to have that lag and you still not be able to rush him to that side. I think that's the superpower on his forehand side.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's why you're 12% behind on every ball, is his ability to time up. And so we talk about ball striking. He's in that conversation with best ball strikers because of the lag. He's able to create forehand and backhand. By the way, like, those wrists break on the back end, and then he just, like, he sends them through. Right. It's not like Andre, where it's a little stiffer and you're using the entire body. It's like. It's his, like, loosey, goosey wrist and all.

[B]

But he's.

[A]

But it doesn't affect his timing. Yeah. He's, like, taking that risk to create the. The shot profile. But he times it up. Even if you attack it with pace.

[D]

Yeah. It's what you can't.

[A]

I wouldn't be able to square that away mentally. That wouldn't.

[C]

That would.

[A]

That would fuck me up. Who else you got?

[D]

Well, kind of. I mentioned him last time. Didn't. Should have just kind of held onto it. But I think team. I think team forehand. Forehand was especially during his prime, that 29, 2018, we kind of saw him kind of ascend on the scene really quickly. But that 2018, to maybe right after Covid, he won, obviously, the US Open in 2020, but his forehand was a joke. And also he was one of the guys who could generate a lot of pace who wasn't that tall, but from really far behind the baseline, like team one, it's time to talk about the thing with center. Center has that lag. Center has just a more. A bigger backswing.

[A]

Team had A big backswing.

[D]

He had a massive backswing, but to counter that and needing more time, he just gave himself a little bit more time behind the baseline.

[A]

Could he get away with that? He couldn't get away with, like, a grass or, like, something super greasy.

[D]

No, no, no, I don't think. I'm sure he finds ways to adjust, maybe shortening up the backswing, but I just felt like. I remember seeing that Indian Wells final when team beat Roger, and it was. It felt like ripping him off. Yeah, Indian Wells was a phenomenal court for him, but it just felt like his forehand and his backhand, but his forehand in particular. He wanted to find as many forehands as he could, and he could generate pace and produce winners from any area. It didn't matter if he was in the alley on the AD side or he was hitting a running forehand on the deuce. If he wanted to give it gas, there was not much you could do. And he had so much margin, he was swinging out of his shoes. But there was margin there. It wasn't just straight.

[A]

That was a generation, by the way.

[D]

It was. That was a luxury generation.

[A]

And he's one of the guys, like, a lot of times with tennis players. Like, I hit with Francis yesterday, and he takes off his jacket and goes sleeveless. I'm like, this guy is an animal. He's bigger than I thought. He was a fucking animal. Like, monster. Team's one of those guys. He plays so big that you think.

[D]

He'S like, six four.

[A]

Correct. Yeah, exactly what I was going to say. Like, I wasn't on tour with team. He came, like, two years after. It was, like, good right afterwards. But I didn't see him. I was away from tennis. I wasn't involved. And then when you meet him, you're like, dude, you create that amount of power out of that body. Like, he's smaller than you think when you see him in person. I mean, the guy could thump the ball.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Both sides.

[D]

Yeah. So I. Team, I think, rounds out the five. There are some. Some honorable mentions. I gotta go with a guy who can produce just as many RPMs as Rafa and Jack Sock. I remember Jack Sock kind of ascending from playing you in the Open to kind of watching his career and everyone knowing, oh, he's, you know, he's got a good forehand, but it's really. I remember coaches saying, he's got too much going on. Like, that's just. That's not gonna. It's not gonna last on tour. He won. Kazoo. Whatever. Two times and. But when he gets on tour, it's not gonna last. The guys are gonna be able to rush it. And he made the adjustment of kind of maybe giving himself a little bit more space behind the baseline, being a bit more physical, and got the top 10 in the world with a forehand. Really good feel. I think Jack's feel is really good, but he was the forehand. Like, if you go on a court playing Jack Sock, you're going, watch out for the forehand, because he's producing 3200, 3300 RPMs. And then I remember when we started to track data in tennis, when we got to see what the numbers actually were, people were shocked. They were going, jack TOG. It's more RPMs than RAFA. His foreign is better than Rafa. He's like, whoa, it's not better.

[A]

No, it's more RPM better. Stop it right now.

[D]

But.

[A]

Stop it right now. But the numbers out of here leave. So socks for him too. Like, it's absurd. You can get it to dive. Like, it just die. I. I do think he needs time. I. I think you could attack it with pace. Yeah, easier than, like, he didn't accept pace like the other guys were talking about. But, like, you're talking. It's similar to, like, a Gonzalez or someone like, I. My honorable mentions. Like, when he was set, his spin profile was a joke. And you saw it when he was playing, you know, singles. And then he started playing doubles, and the doubles players didn't know what to do.

[D]

Yeah, they said jazz, like, foreign is like, the hardest thing in the world to volley. Like, that's what I was like.

[A]

I was like, you should. You should try to play singles. Imagine what it's like. You gotta get the whole. God imagine when it's not coming to you. God bless. So.

[D]

And also one thing that I think Jack kind of changed in the form. Jack was one of the first players who we started to hear about a super low tension in Poly.

[A]

Like.

[D]

Again, we've talked about technology and how it's changed over the years. When Poly first came out, players were stringing it like ustrung gut or like you strung pro blend. You gave it really high tensions because that's all you knew. And as time went on, it started to go lower and lower. And Jack was one of the first guys. I think I got this right. He was stringing at like 38. Somewhere in. Or maybe low 40 something. That was absurdly.

[A]

Which, by the way, it's impossible for anyone to control without that racket. Work. I couldn't play a 38. It would. The ball would. I would. I would miss.

[B]

Explain a little bit more for like the normies.

[D]

Think of, like a trampoline.

[A]

Think of a trampoline. If my trampoline. I'll say this isn't going to make sense, but hopefully you get my point. If my trampoline is strung at 65, it doesn't move. Like, you're not jumping as high.

[D]

You're jumping on the ground. You're jumping on the ground pretty.

[A]

Now if it's 38, it gives way more. So it almost looks like. It almost works like a slingshot. But that sounds great until you actually have to control it. Right. There's no. The through boundary long is in play. The ability to swing as hard as Jack swung at the ball at 38 pounds. The only way you can play with that is if you have this ability to create RPMs where the ball finds gravity at some point. Like, I. There's no chance I could get the ball to land half the time at 38. Like, I mean, it would just be.

[B]

A laser through the.

[A]

I would miss. I would miss every backhand I ever hit because I don't hit topspin on my backhand.

[B]

Got it.

[A]

So his ability to create spin to Chris, if I was going to actually going to ask you that was like, absurd. So that changes. That's another element of technology changing the game because you're seeing people that can use the tools and in such an extreme way.

[D]

Yep. And. And we saw players after that kind of start to go lower and lower and lower. I don't. I'm not going to say that he was the. The. The catalyst for it, but I think hearing Jack Sock hits 3400 RPMs, he's stringing at 38. Naturally, as a player, we're all kind of competitive. Maybe I should take my racket out and lower my attention because James used to string at what, 67.

[A]

He would string it like something crazy. He would string at 64 in Dusseldorf, Germany, when it was 52 degrees.

[D]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

I was like, you don't want to. You don't want to do a little bit. He goes like. He goes like. Nope. 12 month rule.

[D]

Education.

[A]

12 month.

[D]

Over 12 months out of Harvard education. Yeah. I mean, and you've. The guys that you've seen in today's tennis, because there's a lot of guys are really good forehands now, and we have the numbers to kind of back it up. Like Feast his forehand. I think when Feast first Came on tour, his forehand was probably a bit more of his liability. He could hit more winners on it, but he would miss a bit more. He's got that thing now where he's averaging, I think, 82 to 84 miles an hour at 3200 RPM. Like, we're also seeing guys like Boltig, Von de Zansko.

[A]

I have a name here that I thought. I try to predict your. Your list, and I got most of them. The one person who I think absolutely has a thumper, and if you leave anything hanging, he'll try to wipe you out. The guys that can beat him to pace, you know, he doesn't defend as well on that side, but Taylor Fritz puts a hurt on the wall.

[D]

Yeah, of course, like, it's almost got.

[A]

That courier for him where, like, it comes off flat and hard and deep. He's one of the guys that I think, like, you leave anything hanging, he's going to. It ain't going to be subtle.

[D]

Yeah, I guess 100% agree. And Fritz has an ability to manage his aggression when he needs to. I think Fritz, he doesn't use it as much in just most matches because his ground game and his ability to control the ball and his backhand is so solid. His serve is so dominant. Like, you see it when he has to go up against a Carlos and he needs to gun it and he needs to redline it. You see how great the forehand is. But the guy has been top five in the world, and so many areas of his game kind of. It's almost like a fault. Like the Andre. So if you're playing everything all right, you're kind of like, okay, well, yeah, the serve is good. The forehand is big. There are other things that you're kind of thinking about, not just the. The one shot like that one pace of like, oh, man, I leave. Yeah. If you leave it hanging in any guy today, you better start getting on your heels. But Fritz, he does a good job at detailing, but I love his backhand. Like, there are other areas of his game that come to mind when I think of Fritz. But, yeah, grip point.

[A]

Yeah. Like, I feel like he can. He goes. He goes thumper. Like, you'd have to. Like, he's setting up and you're going, okay, I'm scooting.

[D]

Y. Yeah.

[A]

Like, I'm. I'm getting back. Yeah. Like, who are some. Do you have any other honorable mentions or.

[D]

I mean, we. I can. Today's tennis is so many. I think Casper's forehand is very Very good. And we've seen. We've seen.

[A]

He. He actually took over RPMs from Rafa, too.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

For. For a year. Jim was talking about it his. And that's another one that, like, he's a great example of someone where you watch on TV and you're going, well, it doesn't look like it's that hard, but, like, explain the difference.

[D]

And you were talking about Wells.

[A]

Oh, that's not fun.

[D]

No, not at all.

[A]

Behind the court camera. And why I, like, will never stop talking about it. And you, you know, talked about it. Also. Casper might be the example of Bird's eye view. You're going, it doesn't look like he's ripping it that hard. But then all of a sudden, you get the court bottom view and it's going, oh, that thing is hitting and jumping like it's taking a leap forward, Right?

[D]

Yeah. So I played Casper a few times. I played him early in his career in Stockton.

[A]

Stockton.

[D]

Stockton Challenger, baby. And it was. The courts were lightning fast, and he was young and coming up. And I remember he hit the same way, but the ball didn't have the same weight on it. So you're playing up on a really fast court. It's not getting out of my strike zone. I was able to get him there, and I felt pretty good about it. I was like, oh, you know, he's good. Like, but probably it'll take some time.

[A]

I gotta be two in the world. Not gonna make three finals.

[D]

A couple years. A few years later, I played him in Indian Wells. He had already been top 10 in the world. And in my mind, I'm thinking, oh, I'll just rush the forehand. Cause four years ago in Stockton, on a fast court, I was able to rush the forehand and got him to lift.

[A]

Great.

[D]

Think no chance. The guy, once he got a hold of one, and I'm thinking, all right, he's going to try to play up to my backhand. Let me stay close to the baseline to get on top of it. Because it's not going to get that high. Because what I remember, you know, at 17, whatever he was, it wasn't getting that high. I think it was getting high.

[A]

Well, Indian Wells also has the most. It's the most bounce of any court.

[D]

But I'm going into it thinking, I'm tall and I can get on top.

[A]

Did you actually think this, or was this the story you were telling yourself?

[D]

Well, it's probably the story I was telling myself. Like, I was thinking, okay, I know what Cash was going to he's going to try to dictate place. He's going to lift it up to my backhand. I'll get in and maybe use a short chip or get on top of it. And the moment you get in and you don't connect well, Casper's just. But it's a little bit like the center thing, where it's not one, it's.

[A]

Not two, it gains on you.

[D]

It's three, four, five. Until the point where you're leaving balls barely get away in the service line. You can't.

[A]

No. Unless you can't, because. Unless you take a dumb risk.

[D]

But the other thing he does, similar to Rafa, his backhand isn't the typical, very flat backhand today. It plays top spin. So even when you find his backhand, he just goes, all right, throws it up. Now you're dealing with a different type of topspin, and you're like, well, how am I going to find his backhand? Like, to be able to find a ball to attack?

[A]

He's got a lot of juice. His serve is like, he can. It is.

[D]

Got that kind of quick motion, too.

[A]

It's like a Jim Carrey or pocket, like, kind of quick. Like, Casper's nasty.

[D]

Yeah. So I think Casper.

[A]

I should have written him down. I'm disappointed in myself, but we hope you're not disappointed with us. This was. This is fun.

[D]

Yeah, I like this type of stuff.

[A]

Yeah. It's like we do a disservice in tennis if we're just like, forehand good, backhand bad. Like, people can have great forehands in different spots. We have someone who likes hitting it from the left corner, who doesn't like running towards it, who likes it when they're back six feet behind the baseline, but doesn't like having to come in and hit one, likes one off of a topspin shot, but doesn't like it when you chip down to it. There are so many different ways pro tennis players don't just miss or hit bad shots because they're not good. It's because they're trying to adapt for pockets of.

[D]

Of.

[A]

Of skill, of power. The people we named probably have the most complete forehands of all time. Maybe not the biggest, maybe not the best at this one, but, like, there are no weaknesses. Their pocket is so big in their variety and what they're able to do and handle. I. I think that's how I kind of ended up getting to. To the names on my list.

[C]

Great.

[A]

All right, well, that was it. Just a little nerd session. It's like what Chris and I do. Just this time we had a camera rolling. Jw, what do you think?

[C]

Nerds love the deep dark.

[D]

Nerds.

[C]

Nerds.

[A]

Nerds.

[C]

Seriously. Listen to you guys. Do you hear yourself?

[D]

Nerds.

[C]

John Isner and Sam Query are gonna throw you in front of lockers and hang you by a tree with your underwear. That was a joke. No, that was a great, great conversation. And you know, Chris is. So we forget how close he was. You know, this, this guy a few months ago was in the middle of a career. But beyond that, he's a real student of the game and a real student of history. Those were a lot. You know, I think even the whatever is a step above casual fan. All right, whatever. He hits a hard forehand, serving a forehand. This, this was the kind of granular analysis we needed.

[A]

I love conversations like that. Just because I feel like I get a little smarter. We have, what do we have? We have people going to Super Bowls.

[B]

We got Olympics.

[A]

What do we have?

[B]

We made it through this whole episode. We didn't even mention the Super Bowl. We didn't mention Bad Bunny, which just happened this past weekend. It was incredible. But I mean, I felt like even with the Olympics, we've just seen star power kind of everywhere. We've seen. We saw Roger at the super bowl, you know, we saw Novak at the Olympics, which. We have a clip for that.

[A]

Can I say one thing before we get into the tennis people at cool events, Charlie Puth crushed the national anthem.

[B]

Crushed it.

[A]

Crushed the national anthem, like one of the best I've ever seen. Right, okay. Anyway, sorry.

[B]

The entertainment all around, I thought was some of the best Super Bowls.

[A]

Green Day ripped.

[B]

Ripped it.

[A]

Ripped it. But they were saying, they were saying they were singing songs with feelings.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah, God forbid.

[A]

Yeah, go.

[B]

And then, but then we had Serena, you know, dancing all over super bowl again. Again with the, with the Row commercial. Looking fantastic. Yeah, I mean, we have multiple 40 plus year old women playing on tour right now. I mean, I don't know. John. What, what do you think? She looks pretty good for a comeback.

[C]

And I mean, I gotta say, I, I think this is great. And I think we learned our lesson from other athletes from Lindsey Vaughn to Novak to who, like, if Serena still thinks that she's got some, some juice that can be squeezed, go nuts. I mean, it would be, it would be one of the great tennis stories of 2026. It certainly is looking that way. I don't know. I mean, I've heard various things. This is more A mixed doubles or maybe return to Wimbledon, where she never quite, you know, did not like the savor of her last. Last match there. But I. I think it's great. And I think I looked into this, by the way, just FYI, though, these glp, these weight loss drugs right now are on a WADA monitor list, but they are legal, so that would not be an impediment. Kind of interesting. I mean, what. What enhances performance better than losing £20? But so. So that. That would not be an impediment to a comeback. I think it's great. I think she would be absolutely. Welcome back. And if this is about. Whatever it is, this is writing more chapters, if this is about playing in front of your kids, this should not be a point of debate. This should be welcomed. I think it's just a question now of what form it takes.

[A]

We wouldn't welcome this. I'm sorry, what are we, psychos?

[C]

The same people who thought Lindsey Vaughn should stay off the mat, give someone else a chance?

[A]

Oh, yeah, that definitely didn't bring any eyeballs to the Olympics. Get the fuck out of here.

[C]

There is sort of a strange, reflexive need to tell athletes to stay retired. I never quite understood this.

[A]

I can tell you something that I think I know for a fact, right? I'm not Serena. I can't play anymore. I stink. And if I decided that I wanted to come back, guess what I would be doing immediately? Immediately, I'd be dropping £20 as fast as I can. I would be taking those drugs because you know what becomes easier when you're 20 pounds lighter? Actually getting back to the training that you need without getting injured to get back on tour.

[B]

Oh, that's interesting.

[A]

So I don't. I. They're like, oh, it doesn't enhance performance. Yep. No, what it does is it. I think it shortens the timeline for training and mitigates a lot of the risk in. Because the thing with getting back is, like, you know, you get injured training, injured training, injured training, injured training, you can't get back. Right. If you start training from a place of 25 pounds, less, guess what's less likely to happen? Getting hurt. So it's not on the day. It's like, if I was going to do it, I would absolutely. I would absolutely do it and try to drop as much before. Before I committed back to the training process.

[B]

We have another clip from the Olympics, by the way.

[A]

Easy transition, by the way, A backflip.

[B]

Landing on one skate, which used to be illegal, and Novak is in complete shock.

[A]

It's amazing what people can do.

[B]

Man, how much do you love just seeing Novak react that way to other greatness?

[A]

Just great. Like you. You know, what's nice is, like, no matter what you've accomplished, you're not oblivious to just really cool accomplishment and things in work and discipline and process. And, like. I'm sorry. You know what I always think when I watch stuff like that? It's like, there was a first time that someone tried that I'm a backflip and land on one skate. Like, to do that for the. It's not like tennis, where it's like, you play and play and play and play and play and play and play, but you're not doing, like, throwing yourself down a mountain and be like, today. I know, and I know someone's going to say, foam pit. Fuck foam pit. I'm going to. I'm going to go. I'm going to do seven backflips and then land. This is the day. I'm sorry.

[B]

It's absurd.

[A]

Like, athleticism.

[B]

I'm sorry.

[A]

It's just great. And then didn't. Didn't Sinner, like, Wasn't he, like, checking bus tickets? Yeah, he's, like, volunteering.

[B]

Sinner was having people get on the gondolas. He was checking tickets.

[C]

So the home game for him, I.

[A]

Wouldn'T mind seeing him just rip it down the ski slopes. I mean, did you hear that a.

[C]

Guy he beat in the juniors is like, whatever the equivalent is, the number one seed now for. To win a gold medal? And it was a guy Sinner, like, six or seven years ago was carving up. He's got, like, indirect wins over a gold medalist in a different sport.

[A]

I actually talked. I was talking with Mac about this exact thing. Like, they were talking about the Winter Olympics, and we see skiers, and he was like. We were just bullshitting for, like, an hour before he played, and he was. He was like, this center thing with the skiing. It's like, what do you think? I'm like, I kind of used to think it was bullshit. It was like, oh, people crouch. You get in and out of the corners. And I was like. And now it's like, five years later, and I've seen what he's become. I'm like, you're going to see, like, every tennis player just, like, throwing themselves down a mountain. I kind of buy it now. I think. I don't know.

[C]

It's funny, too, because skiing is one of these things. Like, a lot of players, Roger, for example, would never do it because they were Worried you jam your wrist and you have a skiing accident. It puts you out of tennis, but it sounds like, yeah, you look at how Janik gets out of the corners and that leg strength. And someone knew what they were doing. But no, I heard Birdie told me, keep an eye on these Olympics and Yannick Sinner sightings. I think he's an. He's not done. We're gonna see him.

[A]

Great. So he's gonna do the closing ceremony. Okay. I'll tell you this, though, speaking of people where it's like, Sinner beat someone in a different sport and then went on to become, like, a tennis player. I got a text from Godsick on the way in from Roger's agent, and it was basically like Roger was at the Super Bowl. Looked clean as all. I mean, just, like, cool, dude. Anyway, so I guess he was talking to Drew Brees, and Brees was talking shit how he used to beat me in tennis.

[C]

Oh, really?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he did. He did. Yeah, he did.

[C]

Wait, wait. As long as you brought it up, because that comes up from time to time, and it was so I. Chris. Chris Mim, who played in the NBA.

[A]

And apparently I never lost it back. In fact, he sucked. I never lost to him. I lost a breeze, though. Yeah, that's.

[C]

True story.

[A]

True story. I lost him. True story. Here's. We'll end of the show after this. He was. He's three years older, but, like, when I was nine, I was number one in the city in 16 and unders. Like, and then breeze. This guy comes in and he would, like. He beat me twice. Like, ruined my universe. I'm like, no, this is my domain. So I finally beat Drew Brees in tennis. He's like, if I'm losing to this bum, I quit. I'm done. So you're welcome, football. You're welcome, New Orleans. Thanks for watching surf.