Holger Rune on Achilles Rehab, Scouting the Top Players, & More | Served with Andy Roddick

Summary

Podcast Summary: Holger Rune on Achilles Rehab, Scouting the Top Players, & More | Served with Andy Roddick

Podcast: Served with Andy Roddick
Episode Date: January 13, 2026
Host: Andy Roddick (Host 1), Mike (Host 2)
Guest: Holger Rune

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Episode Overview

This episode of Served features an in-depth, high-energy conversation between Andy Roddick, his co-host Mike, and special guest Holger Rune, a top-ranked ATP player. The discussion covers Holger's Achilles injury and rehab, mental strategies during recovery, tour scheduling mistakes, handling public opinion, and Rune’s unique game-by-game scouting of top ATP players. The show offers compelling, first-person insight into the physical and psychological complexities of professional tennis, with Holger’s honest reflections and Andy’s erstwhile player perspective creating a candid, layered conversation.

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Key Discussion Points

1. Current Events & Tour Rundown ([00:44]–[06:16])

• The hosts discuss the excitement of the new tennis season, quick takeaways from United Cup, and recent ATP/WTA results (Coco Gauff, Belinda Bencic, Daniil Medvedev, Alexander Bublik, Svitolina, Musetti’s rise).
• Praise for tournament variety and the unusual stat of Medvedev’s 22 titles in 22 different cities ([02:48]).
• Brief, lighthearted banter about the podcast's new scoring system for draw analysis, with Andy playfully incredulous about being kept in the dark ([06:16]–[08:07]).

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2. Holger Rune on Achilles Injury and Rehabilitation

Starts: [08:07]

Injury Status & Mental Health

• Rune describes initial devastation after the Achilles injury in October, the uncertainty of diagnosis, and immediate focus on recovery ([08:28]):

  "Obviously really devastated when it happened... got it kind of checked immediately... worst things that could happen for my Achilles. But now I’m doing much better. Doing a lot of rehab. Doing great mentally, honestly."

• Holger credits his team, family, and friends for support and notes he’s sharing his rehab journey publicly to connect with fans ([09:41]).

Approach to Recovery & Goal Setting

• New technique: Rune now sets detailed 7–10 day recovery goals, which he says he might adopt for healthy playing as well ([11:51]):

  "Every week or every 10 days we put up, okay, I need to be able to do this in 10 days. So that kind of keeps me a little excited." – Holger Rune ([11:01])

• Recovery progress is individualized; he’s following all medical advice strictly and isn’t rushing his return ([10:40], [11:01]).

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3. Lessons Learned: Managing Schedule, Mindset, and the "Power of No"

Deep Dive: [12:05]–[20:17]

Burnout & Scheduling Errors

• Holger admits he overcommitted in 2025 (Davis Cup, Laver Cup, Tokyo, Shanghai, Stockholm) without respecting physical limits ([14:17]):

  "I did feel tired in Stockholm... I was not recovered and I was very fatigued... I need to just accept and understand my body a little bit better because in the end I would rather be playing Australia right now than sitting at my desk here." – Holger ([15:38])

Saying No & Learning From Failure

• Roddick and Rune discuss the "power of no" amid pressures from team, sponsors, and self-expectation, referencing Federer and Nadal’s willingness to take time off ([16:05]–[20:17]):

  "I think in the future, if I feel like small things... to be more cautious on how we approach this." – Holger ([18:22]) "No one ever gets that right, you know, if you were 4 or 6 in October of 2008. No one ever gets that right..." – Roddick ([19:10])

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4. Watching and Analyzing Tennis—A Fan and Competitor’s Perspective

[20:17]–[23:20]

• Holger is a genuine tennis fan, watches major matches for both enjoyment and technical analysis ([20:59]):

  "I love to watch tennis... second thing also comes into my mind, what can they do that I cannot do?" – Holger ([20:59])

• He studies top contemporaries (Carlos Alcaraz, Jannik Sinner) for discipline, tactical developments, and decision-making.

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5. Navigating Motivation, Public Perception & Media Narratives

[23:20]–[28:34]

• Holger on the dual effect of rivals’ success—motivation and frustration:

  "It’s both motivating, and it can also be frustrating… I just try to focus on my own path." – Holger ([23:20])

• Discusses his difficult period after reaching career-high ranking and dealing with external opinions and coaching changes:

  "When you become high on the ranking... it’s a different way of living." – Holger ([24:06])

• On managing public/media expectations and brutal headlines, he tries to focus on trusted voices, especially from former players ([26:32], [27:36]).

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6. Tennis Nerd Deep Dive: Scouting Top Players

Run-through of ATP Elite — Holger’s Insights
[34:57]–[61:44]
(Formatting: Player – Key Observations / Tactics / What Makes Them Special / Personal Anecdotes)

Casper Ruud ([35:11])

• "Casper’s ball, especially his forehand, is very heavy. And on clay, it’s pretty brutal... my goal was really to catch his backhand... try to play closer to the baseline, but that’s tough also in clay."
• Practiced hundreds of backhands before defeating Ruud in Barcelona.

Ben Shelton ([38:02])

• "Great serve... I decided to keep my position and step in on every serve... to not give him space."
• Stresses attacking his backhand and using aggression.

Taylor Fritz ([39:16])

• "He never leaves the baseline... very good ball control on his records... brilliant timing."
• Strategy: Make Fritz uncomfortable with slices and drop shots, “be the unorthodox player.”

Alexander Bublik ([40:39])

• "Very natural serve, unpredictable on every shot... When I play him, I try to play as boring as possible—just practice-style cross-court rallies to take away his joy in improvising."

Alex de Minaur ([42:19])

• "Maximizes everything in his game... bulletproof mindset... very flat shots, somewhat awkward to hit."
• Personal anecdote: Beat him in 2024 Paris by serving slower due to back spasm, which proved ironically effective.

Lorenzo Musetti ([44:57])

• "All-around player, one of the best defenders, great hand skills... angles really well."
• Try to "rush him," force big swing errors, approach the net when he’s defending with slices.

Zverev vs Medvedev ([47:02])

• Zverev: Huge serve, flat backhand, prefers baseline rallies, susceptible to being moved forward by slice.
• Medvedev: Master at “teaching you to go for big shots and loves when you make unforced errors.”

  "The worst kind of rally you can get into is the backhand cross."
  Holger uses serve-and-volley and high, off-pace shots to disrupt Medvedev. "Sometimes, you know, when you play the other guy’s game, it can make them uncomfortable..."

Carlos Alcaraz ([52:04])

• "His attitude, his energy—you feel it, the 'vamos'—very intimidating in a good way."
• Serve is underrated, provides “so much rotation,” and sets up aggressive plus-one forehands.

  "When I played him in Barcelona, I started playing much more conservative, much more boring. Less is more."

Jannik Sinner ([57:14])

• "Always stepping in, never holding back. Plays really aggressive and disciplined tennis, always commits on the shot."
• Recalls Sinner’s insane training discipline: "He was training every day, four hours a day, so disciplined..."
• On Sinner’s evolution: "He just got better in everything... serves better, returns better, but it’s not like he learned something new."

Novak Djokovic ([61:44])

• "He’s incredible, especially what he’s doing at this age is phenomenal."
• Explains Djokovic’s focus on percentage play, discipline, intensity.

  "What is incredible with Novak is how much percentage he plays, and how much being disciplined can award you..."

• Notes Djokovic’s late-career improvements in serve and forehand, technical efficiency, return remains best ever.

  "He’s serving better now than he ever has." ([64:38])

• On subtleties:

  "It’s his ability to switch directions safely. To find the pattern he wants consistently." – Roddick ([67:04])

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7. Generational Arguments and Tennis “Twitter Beef”

Segment: ([71:30]–[78:42])

• Brief discussion of public sparring between Patrick Mouratoglou and Jo-Wilfried Tsonga about the merits of tennis generations.
• Roddick pushes back on dismissing careers like Tsonga’s:

  "As a coach, I think it’s dangerous to discredit a career like that flippantly."

• Ultimately, both hosts acknowledge that generational debates are inevitable, but respect for past and present players is essential.

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8. Closing Thoughts

Host Reflection: ([68:57]–[71:30])

• Hosts express admiration for the openness of the new generation and how candid conversations like Holger’s elevate the understanding of tennis fans.
• Roddick finishes by noting that simplification and trusting base skills may be the next step for Rune’s on-court evolution:

  "It’s almost as if he feels like he has to do something extraordinary. Where I’m going, dude, your base setting beats 97% of Earth most of the time."

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• On Rehab & Mental Health:
  “Thanks for having me. First of all... things are going really well, actually... I’ve been very privileged to have all my team around me and all my family and friends to support me to make life a little bit easier off the tour.”
  – Holger Rune ([08:44])

• On Overplaying & Learning: "What I did, you know, with playing Davis Cup, Laver Cup, Tokyo, Shanghai, Stockholm... it’s way too much and it’s everywhere in the world. But, you know, again, when you’re feeling good, I’m young, I want to play..."
  – Holger Rune ([15:01])

• On Public Scrutiny:
  "The headlines are very straightforward and very brutal sometimes... but, you know, when you’re the player and you’re in that situation, you know why it happened and how it happened... it can be a lot different than how, you know, the newspaper or whatever reads it.”
  – Holger Rune ([26:32])

• On Sinner’s Evolution:
  "He just got better in everything... When I played him in Australia last year, I realized how much this—always stepping in when there’s a chance, never holding back. He’d rather miss a few shots by stepping in than waiting for the ball to drop and play with you."
  – Holger Rune ([59:25])

• On Djokovic:
  "For me, what is incredible with Novak is how much percentage his play and how much being disciplined can award you in the right way."
  – Holger Rune ([62:24])

• Openness in the New Generation:
  "You all seem so open and honest with where you’re at at any given moment in your careers. Why?"
  – Andy Roddick ([60:16])

  "I think what those two [Carlos & Jannik] are doing so well is that they are so open because it makes them have a chance to always keep improving… if you just stay the same, someone else is going to overtake you."
  – Holger Rune ([60:31])

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Final Reflections

This episode delivers a unique masterclass in tennis mindset and tactics, blending Andy Roddick’s humor and player wisdom with Holger Rune’s raw honesty and technical insight. Their conversation goes beyond surface-level discussions, addressing injury rehabilitation, the psychological grind of tour life, and the tangible, intricate experience of facing the game’s elite. Aspiring players and tennis fans alike gain an inside look at the ongoing evolution of tennis, both on the court and in the minds of its next generation stars.

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Transcript

[Holger Rune]

Foreign.

[Host 1]

Welcome to Served. We have Holgaruna on later in the show which is very cool. So we'll get an update on. On his injury. He was like willing to talk about players and how to. We got into some nerdy stuff which is like yeah, what I love. Also we have actual results to talk about. The year has started.

[Host 2]

It's official.

[Holger Rune]

I know.

[Host 1]

I'm excited. I'm always, you know, pro. Longer off season then I'm couldn't be more excited when we have tennis again though. I gotta be honest. A little bit of a hypocrite right here.

[Holger Rune]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

But I'm excited. We'll do the record rundown brought to you by Wilson. Poland beats Switzerland after having lost the last two years. I think in the final story of the tournament probably Belinda Benich if there. If there was an MVP award. Going undefeated in singles. IGA played great until, you know, took some losses at the end but like that's. That's what this event is for. And Coco is a great example for. For Team USA losing that. That early match against Boozes Monero where she said it. This is what Coco said. No disrespect, but she said it's one of the worst matches I think I've played on tour. That's kind of the point of this event where you can start the tournament playing one of the worst matches out of the off season and then end by beating IGA 4 and 2. Right. And like building throughout the week. The difference between getting those wins after a bad match versus having to wait a week to kind of reapply for form is I think the superpower of United Cup. I know it's awesome and I know it's playing for your country and I know it's unisex and I'm just saying on a selfish kind of player focus blinders on the guarantee of three or four matches under real life conditions where you know, there's some atmosphere and it matters that I think that's the superpower of this event. Hubie Hercock coming back and hasn't been real healthy. Hasn't really affected a serve much, I'll tell you that. Couple of people who know how to win. Getting it done in Brisbane Arena. Sabalenka Mh. All she does is win. DJ Khaled.

[Host 2]

Yeah. And gives her boyfriend about not proposing yet.

[Host 1]

She's so funny.

[Host 2]

She's unbelievable.

[Host 1]

It was basically like my boyfriend. Hopefully I'll call him something else or is that is.

[Holger Rune]

And they.

[Host 2]

They cut to him and he was just like a deer in headlights.

[Host 1]

Did he Jonah Hill meme it just like, poor dude.

[Host 2]

Poor dude. I feel you, bro.

[Host 1]

She's aggressive on the court. Yeah, it's aggressive off the court.

[Host 2]

She gets what she wants.

[Host 1]

She gets what she wants. 22 titles in 22 different cities. 1 of my favorite statistics in all of tennis. Mehdi's back. He's back, he's back. You see the difference? Him going into Australia last year and he was like, I didn't play any lead up events. I was mentally finished. They had a baby last off season. Like it basically you show up in Australia because the date presents itself and you have to go versus getting there early. Off of what? Listen, most people, it's a career year finishing what it was a 13 or something somewhere around there. Getting an off season, going early, getting some form. He's going to be back in the conversation in Australia.

[Host 2]

He posted on X after he won. He said, dear, at ATP Tour. Can you please add more cities? I'm running out 22 titles. 22 cities. It's absurd. It is ridiculous.

[Host 1]

It's also weird because as players we normally schedul and go back to the places that we like to play. Like I won 32 times and I won most of those tournaments two or three, four times. Like because you like going back to the same places. 22 tournaments in 22 different cities. It's like the most meta thing ever. It's like confuse and conquer.

[Host 2]

Yeah, he loves to be uncomfortable.

[Host 1]

It's like his whole ethos. Bublek getting a win, entering the top 10 for the first time. It's a long ways from 80 in the world before Roland Garros last year. Props to him. Mussetti, who he beat in the finals. Top five in the world, right? I know sinner gets all the love and rightfully so, but two Italian men in the top five in the world. Props. Bublik. I don't know. I love watching him. He can hit every shot. Is he going to win here? Is he going to. I don't know. He could make the final of Aussie Open or he could lose in straight sets, I don't know. But that's kind of the fun.

[Host 2]

Yeah, it was interesting to hear Holger's take on him, which you guys will hear here shortly. Just the way you approach playing him, it was really fascinating.

[Host 1]

It's great. Fantastic. Alina Svitolina winning in Auckland also. She's just so good. She's just always good. She's always been good.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

Any takeaways? How much tennis did you watch this Week, Mike.

[Host 2]

I did catch a little bit of the United Cup.

[Holger Rune]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Yeah, yeah. The time change is a little brutal.

[Host 1]

But it's not the easiest. No, I watched a little bit. I was in. I was in bed all weekend.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Holger Rune]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

You were resting up.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Host 2]

Healing up.

[Host 1]

Yep. The old Snipper Magoo, anyways. But I. I'm excited to be back in the mix in Australia. It's. It's funny because we're going to sit here and the draw is going to come out and we're going to have to analyze it, and the sample size is like 12 seconds. Yeah, right. And so you kind of start hearing the murmurs and the whispers of who's playing well, who's in shape. I said it last episode with John, I put a lot more stock in a good result than I do in a bad result. Going into Australia out of the off season. Right. Like Mehdi winning in Brisbane, I'm like, okay, that's a hard reset. And he beat. He dropped one set in the quarters, but beat, like, really good players. Props to Nakashima also for making a run to the final of that event. But I'm excited. Can't wait for the draw to come out. It's not like the normal draw shows where, you know, going into the French Open, you have six weeks of clay court events to, like, really kind of have a feel for it. Mike, I might be even worse than usual.

[Host 2]

Oh, you think so? We have a new scoring system now in our. In our draw.

[Host 1]

We do.

[Host 2]

We do. And I can't. I can't reveal it here. Why you got to tune into the draw show and have you yell at us in real time?

[Host 1]

Do I ever get to fucking know anything or no? That's the whole point. It's a serve. Brought to you by producer Mike. Do I have a say in the point totals?

[Host 2]

We'll. We'll do it in real time and we'll see how it works out. See, I like. I like to try things, and if it works, it works out, great. If it doesn't.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Holger Rune]

But what if.

[Host 2]

Try something new.

[Host 1]

But what if I could tell you right now, in this very moment that it's stupid?

[Host 2]

Well, a committee of really great minds of me and Sean and Bracket Baron put together our heads.

[Host 1]

So did anyone who has ever played tennis have a say in this scoring system or no? Is it just.

[Host 2]

I mean.

[Holger Rune]

No.

[Host 1]

Did you literally think of it and just go, anyone?

[Holger Rune]

Anyone?

[Host 1]

Come here?

[Host 2]

Pretty much, actually.

[Host 1]

That was it. Is it weighted? It's a little weighted.

[Host 2]

A little weighted.

[Host 1]

You get some you get some awards.

[Host 2]

You get like a little bit of an award. If you have an unseated topple of seated, you get.

[Host 1]

Oh, so you're trying to incentivize crazy takes.

[Host 2]

No, no, no. What we're trying to do is balance out deep runs.

[Host 1]

Balance out deep runs. I can't wait.

[Host 2]

This is going to be great. I can't wait for you to yell.

[Host 1]

At us for this.

[Host 2]

And everyone else is going to love it.

[Host 1]

Yeah, I hope it's not. Honestly, I. I almost want to know just because. Anyways, whatever.

[Holger Rune]

All right.

[Host 2]

I'll tell you on Friday when the show comes up. This is great.

[Host 1]

Yeah, good. So the good news is I always worried about just. I'd like to be even more unprepared for the draw show. Right. Anyways, that's how we do it. I will see the draw live on air, and then we'll just let it rip. Tater Chip. Apparently I'll hear about the scoring system. Does worth. I'm know about it?

[Host 2]

No, no, John doesn't know about it yet.

[Host 1]

We'll be back with Holgar Runa on the other side of the show. Hey, everyone, welcome back to served as promised. Holger Runa is joining us. Listen, Holger, we all saw the injury in October. I think where we start one is welcome to serve. Thank you for coming on.

[Holger Rune]

Thank you.

[Host 1]

We're so happy to have you. And then obviously we all watched and we're obviously sad about the injury that happened in October. With your Achilles. What's the update? Where are you at with rehab? Are you okay mentally?

[Holger Rune]

Yeah. Thanks for. For having me. First of all, things are. Things are going really well, actually. Obviously really devastated when it happened. You know, we were. We were very unsure, like what, you know, what was going on. And we got it kind of checked immediately. And it was, yeah, kind of the worst things that could happen for. For my Achilles. But anyways, now I'm. I'm doing much better. I'm doing a lot of rehab. I'm doing great mentally. Honestly. I've been very privileged to have, you know, all my team around me and all my family and friends to support me to make, you know, life a little bit easier off the tour. So things are going well. You know, I haven't had any setbacks yet, which is really nice. So just going straightforward.

[Host 1]

And you've been posting a lot of these videos and people are eating them up. Have you kind of hitting balls and every time I'm watching one, I'm going, no, don't do that. Don't do that. Just stay off. But it's. It's an interesting kind of moment in time where you're kind of choosing to really let people in to you, to your recovery process.

[Holger Rune]

Yeah, I, I think, you know, I. I know that how much defense means for me and all the people that support me around the world, and I think, you know, during this, this time, I think, you know, I. I just have this opinion as more as I can share, you know, of my journey and everything as. As better it is. And. And I think there's nothing to hide. You know, it is a tough moment. There is a lot of work to do, and it's not a secret, really. So, you know, I try to. To kind of act normal as I usually do when I, When I play tournaments. And. Yeah. And, you know, actually I've been quite a lot on the tennis court now it's starting to become a little bit more fun because I'm on two legs now, you know, with. Without crutches and everything. So it's. It's a better moment. So, yeah, it's. It's fun. It's more fun now, for sure.

[Host 1]

I'm obvious, obviously, I'm an idiot. I'm not a doctor. That's pretty quick. I mean, you're. It's. It's January, you know, whatever it is, and early January, and you're already kind of on two legs, you kind of stable. Ish. Are you. Are you ahead of schedule?

[Holger Rune]

I don't think there is. There is no like, ahead or behind of the schedule because it really depends on the person. And because everybody recovers at their own time. You know, some can take really long, some can take short. You know, we've obviously looked into everything when the injury happened, like, who came back fast, who came back slow, why they came back fast, and why they got the green light, you know, when they could come back.

[Host 2]

And.

[Holger Rune]

And I've just really been maximizing every single day, putting all my effort on recovery, on doing the right things. And obviously, we have a very, very strict guideline that we follow. It's not. It's not just by, oh, I think it's fun to be on the tennis court. I'm gonna go on the tennis court. It's because I'm allowed to. So, you know, I'm following what my surgeon is saying. I'm following what the physios that I'm working with are saying. So, you know, it's very, very detailed. And also the. The amount that I'm doing my work and, you know, the days that I'm playing tennis, which is, you know, I'm not moving, but it's still standing and it's still loading the tendon. So we avoid too much other than that. And then the days I'm not playing tennis, we're loading more descendant. So it's, it's very, very detailed program. But, you know, it kind of makes me, it keeps me motivated because I have a very clear goal, like every week or every 10 day we put up, okay, I need to be able to do this in 10 days. So that kind of keeps me a little excited.

[Host 1]

So this, this seven to ten day kind of renegotiation of, of the goals or resetting of the goals. And is that something that you do when healthy or is this kind of a new technique that, that, that's been working for you?

[Holger Rune]

It's a new technique for sure. But, but I think I, you know, when I look back when I was healthy and playing, I could have done the same thing, honestly, because I think, you know, at least for me, I had a moment of my career where, you know, you just play week by week. You know, you lose in the quarters, you know, you lose in the semis or something like this, which is, it's not bad, but for me it's not great also. So, you know, it's kind of a confusing, you know, position to be in because, you know, I'm sure, you know, my ambition is to be the best. So, you know, for me it wasn't really satisfying. And that's where now I think I have a lot of time to rethink and kind of, you know, understand myself a little bit better. And also for the future to, to be very, very aware of the goals. Because I think in this moment I've had a few rough days, I have to be honest. But you know, the few rough days was when the goal really wasn't clear. And I think when I'm going to come back, I'm going to be very straightforward being like, this is my goal, this is where I want to be, you know, really be, you know, honest with my team. And we need to be there at this point and we need to work towards this because that's, that's what keeps me and I think many players motivated.

[Host 1]

It's funny because as, as I watch you, I was, you know, when I played I was very like, I was always like pulling something and I kind of ticked a certain way and, and so I see a lot of those mannerism you. But another thing that I, if I could go back and talk to a younger version of myself. And what you kind of just hit on, maybe with. With kind of resetting the mentality is I wish that I had a. Like a more macro view when I was going week to week. I was very good at, you know, we. We know that when you show up to a tournament, you're going to try your best. We never question effort. We never question anything else. I wish I could go back and say, hey, listen, if you are hurt, don't come back too early. Maybe if you're mentally fatigued, you don't have to just pound through it all the time. You know, sometimes less is more. Do you think that there's. There's a possibility of, you know, a year from now you going, you know what, Maybe this was a benefit to my career to like, maybe not be in a rush and not have to kind of show up and try to win every tournament on a Tuesday. And. I don't know if that's a good way to put it, but hopefully understood.

[Holger Rune]

I understand what you're saying. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I think true what you're saying, because there's al. There's always something to achieve, you know, there's always a goal, you know, and sometimes, you know, you just try to. Like, my goal at the end of this season was to. Or the last season, 20, 25, was to make it to Turin. But, you know, then before the Grand Slam, the goal is to win a Grand Slam, then before the Masters is to win the Master. So there's always something to chase. And sometimes, as you say, it's important just to. To kind of accept. Okay, I'm feeling tired, which I did in Stockholm, you know, let's skip this week. Let's play baseline. Paris, do as good as possible. If I make it, I make it. If I don't, I don't. Then we move on, you know, and. And I think, you know, definitely in the future, one thing that's very important is that I have to manage my schedule better. Because what I did, you know, with playing Davis Cup, Labor Cup, Tokyo, Shanghai, Stockholm, I mean, I don't need to say it, you know, it's way too much and it's everywhere in the world. But, you know, again, when you're feeling good, I'm young, I want to play, you know, then it's like, okay, why not? I'm feeling good. But I think in the future, it's just make me understand that I need to listen to my body. I need to be more, you know, aware and kind of be respectful to myself and how I feel like. Because I did feel tired in Stockholm, you know, came late from Shanghai into Stockholm with almost a full body cram in the last match in Shanghai. So I was not, I was not recovered and I was very fatigued. So, you know, if, if I look back in one way, I'm like, yeah, I wanted to play that way because I could make Turin. But at the same time, I think in the future I, I would, you know, ideally I would want to be that far that I would already, already be qualified for Turin if I do better. But again, if I don't, I need to just accept and understand my body a little bit better because in the end I would rather be playing Australia right now than sitting at my desk here.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Holger Rune]

Even though I appreciate talking to you.

[Host 1]

Yeah, yeah, she's, I, listen, we, we, we're happy to have you on, but we'd rather see you out on the courts doing your thing as well. So Carlos played an exhibition here where we live like 14 months ago and we, I hadn't really spent much time around him and we had lunch and we were talking for a little while and we got in this conversation where, you know, he was kind of talking through his new life and responsibilities and the fact that, you know, he doesn't go through a day without, you know, and maybe well intentioned, but still expectations and people asking for a yes all the time. And we got into the conversation of kind of the power of no. And your agent Chris, who's listening in, isn't going to like this, but there is a lot of value in the power of no. Is that something that maybe you're realizing now too, just based on what you said, with kind of committing to all of these things and kind of trying to boil the ocean?

[Holger Rune]

Yeah, for sure. But the thing for me is that, you know, obviously I cannot speak on other players behalf, but for me it's, it's, it's more about that, that I want to play. You know, even I have obligation, some obligations during the year. You know, obviously there's always some week where you need to push yourself a bit more to, to do the things. But it's not really that I feel like, oh, I need to play in Stockholm, for example, where it happened. I, I actually wanted to because I started, you know, being mentally better and playing better. So I was like, okay, let's finish the season strong and then get ready for Australia. But, but, but definitely, you know, I, I think as I said before, to, to listen to your body more you know, even small things, because, you know, for example, in the quarters when I played etiver, I. I had a little thing in my hamstring and we got it checked after and was there a little like grade one, but even a half of a great tear in my hamstring and. And I tried to. To feel it. The next day we did some treatment and everything was fine. And I was like, okay, I'm gonna play, you know, and if I. My. My kind of mind was that, okay, let's finish Stockholm and maybe pull out of Basel and just give it all this week. And then it was very unexpected that, you know, my Achilles popped. So that was. That was pretty brutal. But I think it's gonna make me maybe more aware that in the future, if I feel like small things that I don't think is too much to be more cautious on how we approach this. For sure.

[Host 1]

Yeah.

[Holger Rune]

It's.

[Host 1]

It's that impossible divide between you. You know, your nature is to get out and compete and do it. You want to play, and it's what you do, and it's how you live and it's what you've done since. And then also it's a strange thing. And I think the one thing that I've admired that I was not capable of with the greats and the Rogers is their ability to take time away when they need to and then come back. It's not something I ever did. I was always in a rush. I was insecure about my ranking drops. And then kind of, you get to the end of your career and you realize no one really remembers if, you know, you were 4 or 6 in October of 2008. Like, no one ever gets that right, you know, so it's.

[Holger Rune]

No, no, no.

[Host 1]

It is interesting.

[Holger Rune]

That's right. Yeah. Go ahead. Yeah. To look at the bigger picture. I think also this is going to teach me some things, you know, to. To understand that, you know, sometimes, you know, take three, four, whatever weeks off you need, you know, and. And be ready, actually, when you go, really be ready. Because, you know, now that I kind of. Obviously I need to take months off because I'm not ready to play at the moment. So, you know, it's also, you know, I had one. One person tell me, like, a great advice, you know, during this injury, like, don't come back when you're not ready, you know, don't come back even you feel good, but if you don't feel strong enough, you know, take your time and when you come back, be an absolute beast, you know, go out There beat everybody, you know, and I totally agree on that. And he, you mentioned Federer and Nadal as an example, you know, when they had injuries and, you know, Federer obviously before his crazy 2017 season, took I think six months off and came back as an animal. So I think, you know, this is also going to teach me in the future if I, let's say things are not going well, you know, if you need more practice, take a month. You know, why not? I mean, what's going to, what's going to be the best thing about it?

[Host 1]

Yeah, that's. I listen. I wish, I wish the version of me when I was your age could hear the version of you at your age telling me that I learned it the hard way. Yeah, unfortunately. So I know there hasn't been much tennis. You got hurt in Stockholm and it was kind of a rush to the end of the year through Turin, obviously. Aussie Open coming up. When I was away from tennis and while I was an active player, I didn't watch much. I wish I would have watched more. Are you planning, are you the type of person that will sit there for three or four hours and actually watch and digest tennis? And when you do that, is it simply because you're a fan of tennis or is it because you're actually trying to analyze or do those two live together?

[Holger Rune]

I think the number one thing is that I'm a fan of tennis and I love to watch tennis. And the second thing also comes into my mind that what can they do that I cannot do? And then I try to think like, why are they doing this? And you know, also some decision making on the court. Like, you know, especially now in Australia, it was a bit difficult to watch this week in Brisbane because, you know, I'm sleeping when they're playing and everything. But, but after my injury, I was putting some, some of the Paris Masters on, on the TV and I watched obviously the match with Carlos and Nori and I watched a lot of sinner because he went all the way. And I just, you know, I think it's, you don't need to be like, they are my competitors. I should just focus on myself. I think it's fair to say I can definitely learn something from, from them because there's a reason why, you know, now it's, Carlos and Yannick are the best players in the world. And, and, and I was watching and, and trying to understand a little bit, not just look at like, oh, that's a great shot, but, but why they're doing this in this situation. And you Know how much, in a way, discipline and. And obviously, I think Yannick is the most disciplined, but even Carlos, because I know him from so many years, how. How much he disciplined himself playing, because, you know, I remember him in juniors, he was much more wild than he is now, you know, with crazy drop shot and crazy moments and everything. And now, you know, you see him take pace off the forehand a little bit sometimes and, you know, decide which one to punch on. And obviously, he is very gifted and has this firepower. So, you know, we all know that it's. It's very tempting to go for it. But. But I think, yeah, watching. Watching tennis, I think it's a great opportunity to learn. And, you know, I think, you know, like, we train the. The body and the fitness, we can also train the mind in this way.

[Host 1]

How hard is it. And this is. I'm asking you a question about a reality that I live through with the Big Three also. But how hard is it to watch those two progress? How much of it is a. I want that. How much of it is a motivator, and how much of it causes an insecurity? Because I remember when I would play and Roger would have these things, I felt like this thing where it's like, shit, I know I have to beat him. And also, I. You know, I constantly was kind of. Was. Was thinking about it. Is there a mental toll, or is it kind of completely separate? And it might be a little bit different for you, because the age is pretty similar with. With Carlos, as you say.

[Holger Rune]

It's a bit of both. It's both motivating, and it can also be frustrating. But again, you know, I just. I just try to focus on my own path. You know, I think when I'm. When I'm ready and when everything is. It's worked on well enough, you know, that then my time will come, you know, And I think everybody goes in their own pace. You know, Carlos was extremely early when he. You know, when he not just broke through, but studies, win grand slams. He was 19. Yannick was a bit later. I was. I mean, I haven't won a Grand Slam yet, but I was a bit different. And, you know, I obviously won Paris when I was really young, and then I had a little step back. And I think when I. When I reached my career high, actually, it was possibly the worst moment of my life, actually, with everything. So it was really, you know, a weird moment.

[Host 1]

Explain that, Holger, because I don't. I'm not sure. Yeah, a lot of people listening would.

[Holger Rune]

Understand that because I had, I had no really, like, structure on my life in this moment, you know, I would. First of all, with the coaching situation, as, you know, everybody knows, and then with training and, and I. And different opinions and it was kind of the first time where I really had to, to anyway grow up and kind of, you know, take my own decisions and be aware of everything else. Before that, it was just like I was on the court loving it, just listening to my coaches saying yes or no. You know, it was very, very simple. And obviously we, we spoke and we, I had opinions and everything, but, you know, all of a sudden much more opinions came in and that even from, you know, from bigger names that I have a lot of respect from, and then you start to question yourself a lot. And, and I think it took me a while to understand that, you know, you need to find the right people around you and then to try to, you know, only listen to them and, and not to be too much, you know, oh, this guy says that. Because then it create too much confusion and, and yeah, that, that was one of the reason why it was confusing. And then, you know, a lot of expectations also, you know, it when you, when you become high on the ranking, it's. It's different than being just number 10 in the world to be number four in the world. You know, it's a, Is a different way of living. You know, people saying, oh, yeah, you play Novak in the semis of. Of your. So I'm going to come watch. And then, you know, yeah, but I have four or five matches before that, and then I lost first round, you know, so things, things like this. And I think tennis as you know, is such a high level that you cannot look forward. You know, I mean, at a Grand Slam or any tournament, you need to. The first match can. You can play seven, six and the third, you can even lose. So no matter how good you are.

[Host 1]

How hard has that been? How hard has the learning curve been with kind of disconnecting your reality on a random Tuesday versus idiots like me who come on and just think that we know everything about everything? How hard has that learning process been to kind of disconnect the process in the day to day from kind of macro tennis orbit, if I understand your.

[Holger Rune]

Question right, you mean like the difference of being in a normal day or as a tennis player?

[Host 1]

No, just, just I can come on here and I can say, okay, listen, I'm having to cover 100 players at once, right. Of which, you know, if you go out and there's turmoil and I'm reading headlines based on Holger switched coaches or he's a new coach, or is this that and the other? How hard is it to disconnect kind of your reality and what you know to be true versus people who cover you?

[Holger Rune]

Yeah, it can be difficult because, you know, I should say the headlines are very straightforward and very brutal sometimes. But, you know, when you're. That when you're the player and you're in that situation, you know why it happened and how it happened, and sometimes it can be a lot different than how, you know, the newspaper or whatever reads it. And I. And I think, you know, as I said, it's. It's really. It's. I respect people having an opinion. I think everybody should be allowed to say what they want because, you know, I shouldn't. I don't think we should all be thinking the same. I think the world would be boring if we. If we did that. So I think it's totally fair that, you know, I have my opinion, you have yours, other players, other coaches have theirs. I think it's. It's totally fair. And especially, you know, as yourself, former players, when. When they open up and speak, I think. I think I would say that's from outside the persons that I listen the most to because they've had that experience that I have on the court, where people. Who hasn't had that experience, I think it's, you know, you should take it more with a gram of salt, as I would say.

[Host 1]

Yeah, I think.

[Holger Rune]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

There's also a weird. A weird place where, you know, I don't think people would talk much if they didn't see your drive and potential. Right. So I think that's almost like a catch 22. Also, like, you know, there's a reason we're talking about you because you're 20 years old and you're four in the world, like, we have to. You know, you've almost forced the conversation sometimes.

[Holger Rune]

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And as you say, that's a good thing. You know, rather have people speaking about them and even bad sometimes, and nobody's speaking about you because it means you do nothing. So I think. I think that's a good thing. Obviously, we. We all like when we. When we are spoken well, too, of course. But. But, you know, it's. I. I think by. By time, you're also going to learn it. You know, no matter how you are, how you behave, how you play, there's going to be the persons and the fans that love you. They're going to be the Persons that don't like you, I mean, that's not going to change. So, you know, I, I think that's. That's, again, totally fair. Everybody should. Should kind of which kind of be fans of who they want to be.

[Host 1]

So we've talked a bunch about from this moment forward and, you know, with the injury and what the next year of your life kind of may or may not look like. Let's. Let's go back and level set. Let's pretend like we were talking in, in Shanghai of this year before. Before you got hurt. Right. And if I was to say at that point, Holger, what needs to improve?

[Holger Rune]

What to. Needs.

[Host 1]

What are the. What are the. What's the obvious path to get to where you eventually want to go? As of right now?

[Holger Rune]

Yeah, and that's very interesting because when I played in Tokyo the week before Shanghai, I had a really, really, like, important talk with all my team. And very kind of, you could say a brutal talk in a way, very straightforward, where, you know, for a while people were actually honest with me, which, you know, in the moment can be tough. But I really appreciate it because from there something changed a little bit. So I was very unfortunate that my injury happened. But, you know, from, from beginning in Shanghai and Stockholm, I think I did the right things. The thing is just, I need to be better in those matches where, you know, things are not really feeling well, things are a bit rough. It's a, it's an uncomfortable match to play, but it's that match I need to get over before things get funny, you know, like the quarters, for example, or the fourth round. You know, these matches, great players, you know, but these matches, I know if I, if I put my 10 out of 10 effort, not my 10 out of 10 game, but therefore I'm gonna go through this most of the times. And, and this is what we spoke about, and we were pretty honest with each other. Like, look, obviously your potential is like this, but if you want to get there, you know, you need to do these things, and if you don't want to do them fair, but. But then we need to talk differently to each other. So, you know, and, and I think in that moment I kind of understood the seriousness of, of these kind of matches and, and the effort that I need to put when it's a, It's a match that is, it's more rough. Not just because, again, I played many matches that are tough, like against Djokovic, but these are matches that are so enjoyable. You know, it's more the matches that you don't enjoy that much. That's a, that's like a dirty grind, you know, against a crazy good Argentine player or something like this, you know, where, you know, they're playing high in the backhand and you struggle and it's a slow clay court or something. Those are the matches that, that I need to learn to get through. And I think I did it well in Shanghai to, to be tough, you know, to be more tough when I play those matches.

[Host 1]

Yeah, it's, it's, it's funny you say that because, like, for my entire career, people always mention any match. It's like a semi, a final, and no one ever remembers when you actually don't feel great and you barely beat someone who's 80 in the world, but it gives you that chance to get to the round of 16 or the quarters, and then all of a sudden something snaps in the, you know, something clicks in the quarters and you play.

[Holger Rune]

Great and people like, oh, you better.

[Host 1]

You played great that week. It's like, I actually played like shit for the first three days of that tournament, but just survived. Right. Is, is that kind of what your, that, that conversation was about?

[Holger Rune]

That's, that's exactly what I meant. And, and, you know, example was when we had to talk was in Tokyo when I won the two first matches, then I played. Brooksby was a great player, very tricky player, you know, and I, and I can be honest, I kind of, you know, I didn't put an effort. You know, I tried, but it was not a full effort. And credit to him also for making it difficult for me. I don't want to take anything away from that, but, you know, it was, it was not, not a full effort. And is that when you said, when you say effort?

[Host 1]

Because when I. Let me just interrupt for a second because when you say effort, when I, when I watch you, I, I never ever look at a match and I may disagree with tactics, I may disagree with, you know, how someone goes about it. Like, listen, that, that, that all happens. We're not, we're not all good every day, but I never look at you and go, that guy's not physically there. Are you talking about, like, the mental side of it?

[Holger Rune]

Yes, mental, Mental kind of effort, you know, because, for example, that match, you know, then, then I, then I play, then I change tactic every fight, three or four games. And I tried to play extremely aggressive. Then, you know, I'm playing aggressive. I'm looking at my team, I'm like, ah, but I'm trying to do some things, but you know, if I really tell myself I need to win this match, I would most of the time, find a way to win. It's just because, you know, sometimes you think things are. Are rough. Oh, it's tough to move, or you feel the leg a little bit more or something like this and that. That's. Those matches where. Where you just gotta, like, you gotta dig deep and forget a little bit how you feel, you know, And. And I think in. In those last tournaments before my injured, my team was also really accurate and good to keep me accountable on my effort, because without this mental effort on every match, it's also tough to talk about the tennis because, you know, you don't know how good you could be and how good you are if you don't put the. The quality every day. I mean, it's. It's really tough to say. That's always what my. Well, my. I mean, lifetime coach last said that, you know, I. If you keep doing it for certain amount of matches, certain tournaments, you. Then we can talk about how your level is. But before you do it consistently, it's tough to think about if you're good enough or not, because, I mean, again, everybody can play good on one day, but can they keep doing it consistently?

[Host 2]

So.

[Host 1]

Something that I would love to do if, If. If you're up for it, and if you're not, we'll. We'll get rid of the awkwardness and we'll just edit it out. But one of the things that I never want to be, you know, I didn't see this path where I was just. I would just be talking about tennis all the time. But I remember a point of frustration during my career is I would be watching tennis, and I'd hear someone, you know, say someone would be playing Rafa, and you'd see the ball bounce short, and they would go, well, you got to take that on the rise and go in. And I'd go, you don't know what that ball feels like. Like, that's not a sump that it's going up in a way. There's. It's not, you know, a ball that. I don't care what it looks like on tv, it's not one that you can actually step in and do something with. So if you're okay with it, I would love to kind of just run through, you know, 10 or 12 names of the top players, and maybe you just talk about what makes them extraordinary and what you think, you know, you have to do, what stresses you out about that matchup. If you have to go up against them, right? So explain to a dummy like me who hasn't played any of these players, right? Like, I look at the statistics and I look at the RPMs, and, you know, when I see that one year, all of a sudden, Casper Rude has more RPMs on his forehand than. Than Rafa late in his career. I'm going, I didn't think that was possible. You know, I felt what Rafa's ball is, and it's like a bowling ball when it hits your racket. Talk about Casper. What does that ball feel like when it makes impact on. On your racket?

[Holger Rune]

Yeah. Casper's ball, especially his forehand, is very, very heavy. And on clay, it's pretty brutal. I think, you know, my kind of goal when I play Casper is, you know, I've had not very much success against him, actually. It's only in the past that I've figured out how to beat him, and it's really to. To catch his backhand in a better way, because I wasn't really able to catch his backhand because I was playing too slow. I was kind of moving too far behind the baseline and trying to, you know, to go closer and closer to the sideline. But he still had time to run around every time. So. And then I'm like, okay, then I should try to play closer to the baseline. But that's tough also in clay, you know, to take everything on the rise because it bounced strange. So when I played him in Barcelona this year, where I had the most success, I just told myself really, really basic, like, hit the ball as hard as possible, but to a huge target on the backhand side. And then whenever I have the chance, I. I move him to the side outside the. The single lines on the forehand. And then I go again, big, big, big shot, but big target. Like, it can be even be in the service, but. But just hit as hard as possible, you know, and I. And I did that. And obviously, you know, I'm never going to be a player that never, you know, do variations. So of course I'm going to do the drop shot sometimes. But, you know, that's not really what I thought about. So that's kind of how I, I managed to, To. To, you know, to beat him those few times. But again, when. When he gets to control with his forehand, it's not fun to be on the other side at all because you have to run so much. It's incredible.

[Host 1]

And give our. Give our listeners just a little, because I, I'm always obsessed with With. With margins and tennis, right? So you can. You can play through the court to a big spot, and if you miss that shot by 20%, it's the difference between neutral or ahead or Casper getting that forehand where you're not getting out of that. That pattern once he gets a hold of it, right?

[Holger Rune]

Yeah, for sure. But me, I was more worried that my pace on the shot wasn't high enough, because if I put high pace even on his forehand, I don't mind it. But if I give him time to line up and hit the ball, I mind it, you know, so it was really, obviously try to catch a backhand, but if I missed, you know, a little intro here, as long as I had the, you know, intention on the shot and the quality, it was fine. But it was more when, you know, my footwork wasn't right and I didn't, you know, manage to time it the right way and giving too much time, then. Then it's really, really tricky. And obviously he tries with all his power to move you back with a high top spin to make it tough for you to play fast. But I think, you know, that that was like, you know, also I had a day before I played him to practice, and I just hit like 300, 400 backhands as hard as I could to the back inside. So. So it was. That was. That was my tactic.

[Host 1]

Talk through someone like a Ben Shelton. And how do you deal with. With that serve and, and returning spots? And what. What. What do. What do you see with Ben?

[Holger Rune]

Yeah, I haven't played him much actually, but I played him one time in Acapulco, and it was. It was difficult. It was more early in when he came on the tour, but still, great serve. I was doing a little variation on my return position in the first set, and I lost 76 and was. Was very, very close to the second set. And. And I decided to. To keep my position and step in on every serve, like, keep it close to not give him space. I know some. Many would disagree, would want sometimes all of a sudden just to move five meters behind and give him a different look. But. But the thing is, sometimes I confuse myself more than I confused the other guy by doing this. So I decided just to step in, try to hit his backhand if possible, but at least just, you know, try to make it so he doesn't have time to line up. Again, I don't want to say all my tactics against every player, you know, but. But again, it was to. It was to really push him on the Backhand. I think there is no secret that he has much more natural forehand than the backhand. So it was to make him uncomfortable there, to make him. To make him stress a little bit because he's a very explosive player, but I think to make him stress, it can be a little bit too lively for him sometimes. But again, he has extraordinary power and quality of both.

[Host 1]

Talk about Taylor Fritz and what he does.

[Holger Rune]

Well, Taylor, I always had a tough time playing him also because Taylor, you know what we also saw in the statistic, that he never leaves the baseline. I mean, no matter what you do, you play high balls. He stay there. I mean, and he has very good ball control. On his records. He's, you know, I think he's maybe looks a little bit more unorthodox when he hits, but he has brilliant timing on the forehand, on the backhand, really natural serve. I think so. I think the fact that he just. He has a very high level and he stays there all the match. I think he never really drops. You know, if he gets tired physically, he can drop a little bit. But again, he's very, very confident in the way he plays. I never see him doubting really a shot or something. And as a player, that can be tough because you can have a break point and maybe I'm a bit tired or someone else is a bit tight and he's always going to punch the forehand if he has it high, you know, or something like this. So I think this, this makes him tough. But again, I always try to make him really uncomfortable with slices, with drop shots, weird balls. I try to be the unorthodox player when I play him, and it's worked. I think I beat him only one time, but anyways, that worked that time.

[Host 1]

Someone you're probably not more unpredictable than or unorthodox when you play. The crazy man Bublik, who is now top 10 in the world from 80 in the world last year before.

[Holger Rune]

Yeah, it's crazy.

[Host 1]

Roland Garros. Is it hard to play someone and try to predict what they're going to do if they might not know what they're going to do 40 seconds before the point starts?

[Holger Rune]

Yeah, yeah, it's difficult, but is a character, for sure. I mean, he has a lot of tennis in him and I'm actually really happy to see him doing well because he has potential. And I think it was sad to see him drop down the ranking because, you know, when you have so much tennis in you, you, you kind of also, as a tennis player yourself, you want to see them at a higher level and that he definitely lived, lived up to. And I think Bublik, I mean, obviously very, very natural serve, which makes it tough. You never know if it's going to go or not on the second also. And then, then you know, the unpredictability on, on every shot that he hits, you know, it can be. It can be pressed on the forehand and last second he's going to drop shot. You know, it's like you're not expecting anything and it's just. It's just crazy to play. But me personally, I try to play as boring as possible when I play him because, you know, he is a guy that likes when things happens. And I think if you can play as much like, just like to cross one line, like practice as you can against him, as better chance you have to win.

[Host 1]

So someone that I'm a massive fan of because I like. I like looking at a player and going, you know what? I don't know that this person's leaving any stone unturned. I think they're getting the absolute so much value out of it every day. Talk about Alex Dimanour and the way that he goes about in the problems that he presents.

[Holger Rune]

Yeah, I think a player like Demonor is really a great player. You know, I think he's one of the guys that maximize everything in his game and in his physique and in his mindset. I think he's a, you know, bulletproof mindset as well. Like, he's. He's tough. He's tough. He never, he never gives up. And I think he also has, you know, very, very flat shots. You know, sometimes can be awkward to hit on because it sometimes even some. Some backspins on the back end and the forehand. But, you know, really tricky players to play and very physical, I would say, like, if you're not in shape, no chance to beat him, you know, because he's gonna, he's. Even though you try to overpower him, he actually likes that pace. And it's funny, when I played him and beat it him last. No. Yeah. 2024 in Paris before the match and in the warm up, my back got totally stuck, like a spasm or something. So I was like this, you know, and I was like, oh, my God, what I'm gonna do. So I got some treatment before the match, but I was like, okay, I'm gonna go in there anyways. And. And I could not really serve full. I could serve maybe like 150 kilometers per hour, but that actually turned out to be really effective because I didn't give him any pace. I was just kind of placing the serve to open up the court a little bit. And I won the first set and I got warmer. I start feeling better and I served bigger and I lost the second set. And then, and then, then the third set, I was like, okay, I'm feeling good, but let's try to play like the first set. And then I managed to beat him. But again, he's tough, you know, because especially there on indoor hardcore. For me, the tactic sometimes is try to move him back with spins and stuff like this to make him move a little bit away from the baseline. But on Paris Bersey, I mean, if you play high, it's not bouncing, you know, so it's like it's just going through the course. So in that match, I just decided like, just try to play on your instincts, you know, if it's high, second serve, return. I remember on the break point at five all I have it high on the forehand, go for the winner, you know, and I made it and then I served it out. So, you know, there was more about just trusting your gut feeling.

[Host 1]

So someone who I've been really impressed with because three years ago or even two years ago, you would have looked at this player and said, okay, on one surface, super dangerous, and then on faster surfaces, not really part of the conversation. But the improvement in Lorenzo Musetti on all surfaces, right? Not just showing up for three or four months during the clay and making everyone's life miserable. Now at five in the world this week, a lot of gains for, for Musetti. What, what does he do that, that, that, that bothers planet Earth?

[Holger Rune]

Yeah, I think he's physically very, very good now. He's very, has a great endurance. So when he plays the long matches, you know, he's, he's not dying, you know, or anything. And I played him in French Open a little less physically good that I could be. And I think what he does well, that he's an all around player, you know, he's very, very good in defense. I would say one of the best players in the defense in the world. You know, great hand skills to kind of slice it back. And the lobs he does incredible, which can be really annoying sometimes, you know, but great forehand also angles, angles really well. Improved the serve a little bit, but again, not, not the biggest serve out there, but kind of puts it up so he can control with his forehand and, and create his game that way. Yeah, I mean, I think the top players to beat. I beat it him on grass and, and I don't remember where else I played him, but he's a great player on all courts. You know, he made semis of Wimbledon and I think to. When I play him, I, I try to make him again, uncomfortable and taking a little bit time out of him, you know, trying to rush him a little bit, making more stressful on his swings. You know, sometimes he can have, you know, bigger swings and if you play fast and you know, try to pressure him that way, I think can be. Can be effective. And then obviously when he's out there slicing, sneak into the net sometimes and. And finish it off, can. Can be effective move also the next two.

[Host 1]

I want, I want you to talk about the differences in these two, because I think they get. They've both been like, incredibly successful for a long time now, but I think the average fan tries to loop them into the same category because they're both super tall, super skinny and have great defensive skills in this new age of tennis. You know, when I played someone and they were six, six or, you know, six, seven, they didn't move right. You would attack with corner one time and yeah, well, they would serve or they could come forward. Maybe the courts were a little bit quicker, whatever it is. But talk about the differences with these two great players with, with Zver and. And. And Medvedev.

[Holger Rune]

Yeah, I think let's start with S. I think, you know, great, great serve. You know, he had. He got control on his serve few years ago when he. When he did the mini double falls. So really, really good first serve. Can. Can obviously do all the spots that he wants to hit and great backhand really flat. I think, like, really goes through the court. Can be annoying if you're not low enough on the legs and, and forehand. He. He plays it well. He plays it really well. I think, I think it's definitely not the most natural shot for him we can all see, but he honestly, he did well. I think, you know, a match that I saw, which was really interesting to watch from this side of the call was against Diminar and Labor cup when Diminar beat it him. And I think, I mean, Diminar's tactic was in. I mean, very, very clear to see, but he was super effective. I mean, every time he had the chance, he would making come forward with the slice and making him uncomfortable there. But as soon as, again, you try to play with a lot of pace and try to kind of outplay him from the baseline, he likes it because he moves Very good lateral. He struggled a bit more forward and backwards and stuff. But again, I mean, I think he has and has had an incredible career, you know, coming up really young as well. And, and, and he, he's tough. You know, he moves well. Great defense especially, you know, if you attack to the back end. You can have a very, very tough first volley. But, yeah, difficult players play.

[Host 1]

And, and Mehdi, when people watch, I think it used to be this way with, in our generation. I think that weirdly, because one's tall, one's a little bit smaller, but when people would watch Hewitt, you know, in the, the, the. The view of the, the, the. The cameras on television above, they're going, why don't you just step in and, and rip that ball? It doesn't look like it's going crazy fast through the court. And I'm going, yeah, it's going sideways and it doesn't get above your knees. Right. It just, it seems like he is the master at kind of, kind of controlling that, that low ball flight and almost daring you to be aggressive.

[Holger Rune]

Exactly. You know, he's teaching you to go for the big shot and he, he loves when you make guns for stairs. You know, he's a guy that loves it. So, you know, so that. I think that's some of the worst thing you can do is just to try to overpower the ball. So, yeah, I mean, Mehdi, you know, I remember I've trained with him so many times because when, when I was young and training at the academy down in south of France at the Morris Glue, I was training a lot with him in the off seasons, so I kind of got really used to his game. And, you know, he also got really used to my game. But, you know, I think it was nice for me to train with him because he was so solid and I also learned a lot from him. You know, his work ethic is incredible also. And, and I mean, look at the guy. I mean, world number one. He's been one grand slam mini grandson, final, incredible career. And, and I think when you play him, it's, it's difficult. I think the worst kind of rally you can get into is the back and cross. I think he loves that. When you're back across, he takes you more and more flat outside the court. And when you're all the way there, you know, either he goes down the line or again back behind you. So I think that kind of rally you want to get out of in some way you can sometimes, you know, myself, I try to use the slice, you know, Where. Line middle, just to get out of this one. And then I, I personally try to use the servant volley and a lot because he's so far behind the baseline. But again, if you, if you don't serve well enough, he has time to pass you, so it can be tricky. Also, it has to be the right moment and not all the time. And I think, you know, also he's, he's an animal on the court. You know, he fights like crazy. You know, he's. Whatever it takes to win. You know, if it has to be on the mental part, it has to be on the physical. I mean, he's not gonna fight someone, but, you know, if it's, if it's gonna be.

[Host 1]

He might, he pulls up just short of that sometimes.

[Holger Rune]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we had a little discussion in injury boss and years back, but. Yeah, but, but all good. You know, I think, you know, this year when I played last year, I always think it's this year, but last year when I played him in Engine Wells, I played really, really awkward tennis. Also when I beat him, I mean, my coach was like, always telling me, like, it's not the right way to play to move forward in your career, you know, because I was playing like sometimes 10 kilometers per hour, just high, loopy backhand or something, you know, but again, it was just to. Sometimes, you know, when you play the other guy's game, it can make them uncomfortable. Like, you try to play their game and they don't know what to do. Sometimes, you know, when you try to, to. To play your game and they feel really comfortable in the defense can be really tricky. But yeah, yeah, great player also.

[Host 1]

And obviously we're going to have you touch on, on Carlos and that matchup, and you've, you've, You've beaten Carlos before. What do people not understand about what he does? Right? Because it's, It's, It's. It's interesting because I find myself explaining more like the greatness of, Of.

[Holger Rune]

Of.

[Host 1]

Of Novak. Right? Because it doesn't, It's. It's not as if he has the biceps like Rafa or he grunts or, you know, the, the magic of, Of Roger, but like, what he does in keeping space and ball flight and everything, he's able to do what Carlos does jumps off the television screen. Right. People who don't know tennis can. It's fun to watch him.

[Holger Rune]

Yeah, it's, it's amazing here.

[Host 1]

What does he do? Well, that people don't fully realize because of kind of all the, the circus that he kind of plays around him sometimes.

[Holger Rune]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, as you say, he makes incredible shots here and there, but, you know, this is not always. It's not what wins in the matches. I think what wins the matches is. Is for sure, he's tennis, but he has an amazing attitude on the court. You know, I think he's. His attitude, his. His energy, you know, you feel it. You know, you feel the vamos. You know, you feel all of this. And. And he's. For me, I kind of know that he's been disciplined and taught to behave like this because, you know, when I was a junior, he was, you know, sometimes all over the place. And, you know, I think many juniors where I was also sometimes. And so it's totally normal. But. But his attitude is very intimidating in a good way, in a respectful way. You know, he's very always on. You can see in his eyes, he's there. He's very consistent in that. And I think if we. If we look more into his game, probably a shot that not many people think about is. Is great, is his serve. His serve is really good, you know, because it has so much rotation on it. So you're like, always, oh, the forehand or the drop shot is incredible, or he's running, passing shot, whatever. But this serve is tough. And I remember when I played him in. In Paris, indoor, he was just serving like, second serve to my backhand on fast indoor, and I loved it, you know, just smacked it every time to rush him. And then I played him in Wimbledon the second time, and he was mixing so much up the serve, like, sometimes first serve as a second serve, like spin on the body, then sometimes second serve bit faster. You know, he made it really uncomfortable that way. And I think this just sets him so good up on the second shot. And then he has great forehand to follow up with. And you don't know. You kind of know, okay, now he's lining for the forehand, but you don't know if he's coming to drop shot or slice forehand or a winner, you know, so you're like, you know, you're thinking a little bit, what. What should I do? Should I stay in? Should I move a bit back? Obviously, when I had. When I had two legs, I was quite fast, so I could reach a lot of these drop shots.

[Host 1]

I don't mean to laugh, but that's heartbreaking.

[Holger Rune]

Yeah, yeah. No, no, but when I had my legs, I was fast to reach the drop field. But, you know, again, you need to be really fast, and. And then it can be frustrating because he has so much power and sometimes you feel like I need to play better than him to beat him. I, I thought that. And you know, sometimes I should say less is more, you know, not just harder shots or bigger shots or closer to the line is better. So when I played him, for example, and had success against him in Barcelona this year, I got down a break, three, two. And I started playing much more conservative, much more boring in a way. Like, I took the pace off. I was like, play with, try to play within my own pace. Don't try to match his pace. And, and let's try to get him into my rhythm. And I broke him back. I remember immediately. And I was very concentrating on this, to play this way. And, and then you see some strange errors sometimes from his side where you're like, okay, I didn't expect that. But you know, he, he's, you know, I always say, like, you know, there's no one who's unbeatable. For me, I mean, I think everybody can beat everyone. I think, you know, if you find the right way, it's possible to beat these players. It's possible to beat anyone. And I think there I cracked it, I cracked the tactic and I was very focused, obviously a big match, you know, very motivated to play him in the final. And then he got a little bit hurt in the second, in the second set. So, you know, it was a little different second set. But again, you know, we all know how it is also to play hurt players can be tricky sometimes. But you know, you know, obviously I think incredible season that he had. And, and, and also one thing that, how much he opens the court with the forehand, you know, because then he, he puts your angle there and you're outside the court. And then he doesn't just go line, he plays drop shots. So you have to run like 15 meters to the, to the drop shot. So I, I think he's very smart in that way.

[Host 1]

Yeah. And, and we'll get to center. But it, as you're kind of talking through that, it's, it's interesting against the, the, the guys that are the best in the world, when you're on the run, it's not just making the shot, right? Because then you're, it's just a slower death, right? But like against a sinner who's in the middle of the court, like, or, or you have a return, second serve return, you have to stick it to make it count. Otherwise, you know, once they get inside, you're going to have to take a Massive risk to get out of it. But talk about Sinner, from, from where I sit, I watch him and I go, oh, it's like a, it's. It's like Novak, except the, the, the offense, defense, the percentages are flipped.

[Holger Rune]

Right.

[Host 1]

Novak was happy with you trying to go through him, whereas Sinner wants to get on the front foot 60 or 65% of the time. But he just seems so disciplined with, with how he goes about. How he goes about his matches.

[Holger Rune]

Yeah, yeah. And, and that's also one thing that I kind of learned a little bit from these two players especially because again, I think tennis, the game has changed a little bit. You know, it always changed from generation to generation. But I think these two, they just always commit. You know, they always commit on the shots. Like there's a short ball. They never doubt where other players, you know, I think it's, it's very clear to see also on tv, you know, then there's a forehand that you have to change a punch, they go a little under it and they roll it. Where these two, they always go full but, you know, to big targets and everything. But they're really, really aggressive players. And I think Yannick, I used to, you know, I used to kind of like playing him and, and I had a feeling that he doesn't like to play me. And now I think I don't like to blame and he doesn't like to play me. I, I think it's this way now. So. He improved a lot, you know, from, I think was 20, 23 or when he started winning the Grand Slam in 2024. He improved a lot. And, and, you know, he's an interesting player because, you know, for me it was like he was doing, you know, little similar results to me before he broke really through in the, in the Grand Slam, like, did really well, was an amazing player still. You're making finals of thousands and stuff like this, but, you know, was just missing the, the little touch, you know, of becoming the, the best. And, and I remember the one summer I was training in Monaco where I was not in my best, you know, time, the one we spoke about earlier. And I. He was training every day, you know, four hours a day, so disciplined with Vanote, you know, like short angle cross down the left forehand, just repeating it, repeating it all the time. And I was there, you know, chatting to the ball a little bit, you know, all gone. And I was like, okay, you know, so. So you really understand, like, you know, he really broke through because he just started working better you know, he worked more serious. I think I was like, can speak on what exactly he did on his part, but from outside, it looked like this. And again, it's not that his game changed so much. He's just better at everything he's doing. He serves better, he returns better, he has his forehand better, he has his back and better. But it's not like he learned something new. For me, you know, even the volleys he had, you know, it's not his best shot, but he had a decent volley. He still has a decent volley. You know, he just got better in everything. And I think, you know, when I played him in Australia last year, I realized, like, how much this. You know, again, always stepping in when there's a chance, like, never holding back. You know, he rather miss a few shots by stepping in than waiting for the ball to drop and play with you, you know, that's. I played him in fourth round, and I played this guy Shang, and then I played Case, Manovich and Bertini to come up to Sinner. And the biggest difference that I felt was the guy was always stepping in, always taking the chart when he could.

[Host 1]

You all, this generation seems way more open, right? Like, I remember Carlos after Indian Wells. He loses to Draper, and he's coming. He's like, I'm just not feeling my game. I'm like, we used to lie a lot more than this generation. Like, we would just. We would just lie to. You guys are so open. And Yannick talking about, like, he walked into the. The US Open press conference after losing to Carlos, after having had the season he's had, and he goes, I need to change a lot of things.

[Holger Rune]

And I'm going.

[Host 1]

I'm going, shit, man. These guys are, like, really honest. I would have been stubborn. That's probably what was wrong with me. But, like, you all seem so open and honest with where you're at at any given moment in your careers. Why?

[Holger Rune]

Yeah, no, no, but I understand everybody's feeling. I think I would want to be more open also than I am. I'm trying to, even though I'm always curious for advice. But I think what. What those two are doing so well is that they are so open because it makes them, you know, it makes them have a chance to always keep improving, you know? Like, I think also Yannick changed his serve after US Open, and I was like, why? Why? I mean, the guy makes, you know, every Grand Slam final and could have won three out of four. So, like, why would you change your serve, you know, And. And that's where I. I come into mind. I think Carlos also changed his serve a little bit. Now. He rounded it out and he had a. Yeah, he had an amazing serving last year. So you're like, you should just keep doing the right thing. But I think this is the key. I think this is what's great. You know, you're always curious to do better, because if you just stay the same, someone else is going to overtake you. So you always have to find new things. And that's also what I talk to my coaches about. You know, we're making some change in. Not that it's in the most important thing, but changing some technical stuff now that I have the time on the court, on the shot. And I think this can, this can benefit you because, you know, when you, when you, when you step out there, you have something that you concentrate on. You don't concentrate, oh, I need to win this point or something. Maybe you're more focused on some detail that can make you more focused or calm in your service game.

[Host 1]

For example, I was trying to focus on the guys that I don't know anything about that I never played. I actually played a guy named Novak nine times. I don't think that I ever played him when he was in his full prime. I think Novak after I retired in 2012, and Novak before is a very different animal. Holger, but even now, Holger, he's making the semis of every Grand Slam he plays at 38 years old. Talk to us about Novak and what has to go right because you've played well against him. I know you beat him in Bear Sea when you won, and I know you beat him in Rome also in the semis one time.

[Holger Rune]

Yeah. Yeah. For me, he's incredible. And especially what he's doing at this age is phenomenal. He's 38, I should say, still making the deep runs at every slam every time. And. And, yeah, every time. And, and people questioning when he should retire. And I'm like, I'm not even doing semis of every slam. I should retire then. You know, I mean, I mean, you know, it's. It's crazy. Obviously, people are expecting him to win because he, he is who he is. But still, I mean, you know, he's. I mean, it's incredible. Only Carlos and Janik did more than simmies in every Slam. Nobody else did it last year. So he's. He's still maybe even the third best player at the moment, you know, even though his ranking is. Is not at that point. Just because he's not playing as much, but for. For me, what is. What is incredible with Novak is how much percentage his play and how much, you know, actually being disciplined can award you in the right way. And I think it's a. It's a brilliant example for. For me and for many players, but for young players coming up also, because, you know, playing the. The return deep to the backhand, you know, hitting the ball cross deep line, you know, all of these symbol shots that you train in the practice, sometimes that's enough. And. And in his career, that's what he did so many times. You know, when I played him the first time in US Open when I was 18 or something, and. And I was, like, really, really nervous, obviously, and. And luckily, I had the chance to practice with him a little bit before that. But again, I was like, okay, maybe what if I don't win a point? You know, I was, like, so nervous, and. And. And then I came in and. And he was just returning, you know, to me, and he was playing the back and cross, and I had time to play with him, and I was like, but this is the greatest player. You know, what is going on. But then slowly but surely, he makes you move a little bit more. He makes, you know, you know, the returns. Every time you don't get any free points, you think you have to go bigger. You start missing some shots, then he breaks you, and then your legs start.

[Host 1]

Feeling a little worse.

[Holger Rune]

Exactly. Then you get crammed in the middle of the third, and then you're done. So, yeah, I mean, physically, I think also he's maximized everything that he's got. And I think he's the most disciplined on nutrition and physical training and everything that he can do, which is very inspiring also. And. And yeah, and I think also one thing as we spoke about Carlos as well, which. Which people probably don't think, but he served so good.

[Host 1]

You know, he serves his serve, by the way, when you compare it to 15 years ago, he was an oak. He was an average server. It wasn't. It wasn't a great part of his game. I feel like he's serving better now than he ever has.

[Holger Rune]

Yeah. Yeah. He's serving so good. I mean, so accurate sometimes, you know, he serves like 185 or 190 kilometers per hour, but it's. It's on the outside of the line, and you don't believe it, and you see it, you know, on these new cameras in slow motion, and it's just an inch in, you know, and you're like, wow, okay. And. And especially on the pressure. I trained with him. I didn't play him last year, but I trained him in Shanghai and I had break points, and every time on the break point, he put the serve on the line, and every time. And I'm like, it's crazy, you know, And. And I know now he's not practicing as much as he used to do, but, you know, he must have practiced an insane amount and very, very disciplined, because otherwise the. The precision, I don't think it just comes by. By not doing anything. I think it's by. By practicing really disciplined. And. And also, I mean, obviously the return is. Is the best ever. And. And he's. I think his forehand got a lot better as well. I think a lot more power. You know, you play the ball slow, he has the possibility to. To put you on the pressure straight away, even though he's not, for me, the most aggressive player. But, yeah, he learned it.

[Host 1]

Yeah. And technical efficiency is something that he. He is. He's changed completely. If you wouldn't. If you. I dare anyone listening to, go back and Google his serve and his forehand from his back ends.

[Holger Rune]

Always remember, I was watching you.

[Host 1]

Yeah, but. But in the serve, the elbow was low. He would, like, had a couple of hitches in it, and he would kind of. You know, sometimes it looked like he was, you know, like, throwing it as opposed to actually going up and hitting it. But the forehand, too, used to be, like, way on the outside, and with pace, you could actually get to it. Right. And also, like, I used to be able to get away with a chip, and like, now that's like a suicide mission against him. Right. If you hit like a little chip to his forehand, he's controlling it, but.

[Holger Rune]

That he likes it. He has a good wrist now on the forehand.

[Host 1]

Yeah. And you can sling that chip cross court, too. He gets around the outside of the ball better than he did. I mean, he won a grand slam in.08, so it's like, what are we comparing to? But, yeah, it's just fascinating. But, you know, it's all you young guys that have made him have to do shit like this. Like, it's just, you know, the technical deficiencies. But I don't. I think Novak more than any other, all time. Great. You have to explain the nuance and the details of what he does. Well.

[Holger Rune]

Right.

[Host 1]

It's not as if, okay, that he has the dramatic finish of Rafa over his head in the big grunt and the whole thing. It's his ability to switch Directions safely. Right. To find the pattern that he wants consistently.

[Holger Rune]

And he's not gonna stable in the context.

[Host 1]

Yeah. I mean, he changed everything because Rafa, before that it was like, okay, everybody on earth. I could have attack. And Novak was the first person who could actually like, take that ball and redirect.

[Holger Rune]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

Right. And his superpower is keeping space between two players. Right. So if you're going to attack him, it's from a position that's a foot deeper than against most players. And that matters over time.

[Holger Rune]

Keep the length on the shot. Unbelievable.

[Host 1]

Yeah. And maybe it doesn't affect it on one shot, but at scale, his ability is to point out your weaknesses over the course of three hours. Right. Not in the first 10 seconds of a match, but. Well, Holger, we've probably kept you too long already. I'm so happy that you. You shared your. Your time with us. You shared your insights again. The honesty is. Is just for me where I said it's refreshing because I learned something every time I listen to this, this new generation. Please feel free to come on anytime, even if it's to tell me, you know, what I'm. What I'm missing. We wish you all the best in your recovery.

[Holger Rune]

Thanks so much.

[Host 1]

I know I can say confidently that we all know and hope that your best days are. Are ahead of you for many, many years. And this is just a. A blip in the road, but thank you so much for coming on, served and, and, and for sharing with us and don't be a stranger. You're welcome on anytime. You. You have a long road ahead of you. If you're ever bored, Come on.

[Holger Rune]

Thank you. Appreciate it, guys. Appreciate it.

[Host 1]

Thank you, Holger.

[Holger Rune]

See you.

[Host 1]

And we will be back after the break. That was fun.

[Host 2]

It was great.

[Host 1]

That was fun. All right. Welcome back to Served. That was fun with Holger. Like, that was great.

[Host 2]

Yeah. I thought the stuff about being open was so cool.

[Host 1]

Yeah. I just. And I'm harping on it, and I think it's my thing for this year and this show. And you kind of try to figure out, you know, I think we do a lot of things well on this show. And also it's like, I think we need to build a very significant bridge to the current players. Right. I love that he came on and he's talking about guys that, like, I know from watching, but feeling it and watching it are very different. Like, the more first person feedback we can get from people who are living against the current generation of players is, I don't know do you enjoy? Maybe I'm just hung up on it because I can talk about Novak and I felt the way he plays, right. And with this, I can see it, but I've never felt it. Am I overreacting to that or is that, like, it's fun to listen to?

[Host 2]

No, I think it's super fascinating and to think that he's only 22, going to be 23 in April. He's played so much tennis, he's such like a tennis fan, but even to hear him talk about, like, you know, playing somebody's game against them and they don't know how to react to it, even the way he's analyzing his own ability to, like, think too much in a match, but give effort and, and I, it just, all of it was a well rounded conversation to understand the complexity that goes into, like, each match.

[Host 1]

It's. For some of these guys, it's, it's fun to kind of put a, a conversation to having watched someone for a while. Because, you know, I think one of the bigger criticisms is, and he mentioned it in the interview was, like, going in and out of certain styles. But he does it very quickly, right? It's, it's, it's three minutes this way, and if it doesn't work, I switch to this one, and then I switch to this one, and then I switch to this one. At some point, like, I want to look at my, like, dude, you're built like a linebacker. Like, and obviously we want to see and hope that he comes back at full strength or even better, but it's almost as if he feels like he has to do something extraordinary. Where I'm going, dude, your base setting beats 97% of Earth most of the time. That's wild, right? It's almost as if when he kept talking about success was when it was simpler. I'm like, yeah, that's because your base offering is really good. You can crush backhands and you crush forehands. You're naturally strong and you, your, the weight of your shot is, is big. You know, he's talking about, I took some off my serve. I'm like, it's still tumbling. You know, it's going to be interesting to see when he gets that, that point where he doesn't feel like he has to play well every match. Right. Anyways, what else back on?

[Host 2]

Well, speaking of, before we go, I wanted to get your commentary on this because we didn't talk about in the Open, but one of Hoger's former coaches, Patrick Martago, kind of stepped in Something against former world number five, Joe Wilfred Songa. Have you seen this beef?

[Host 1]

I've. Yes, I've seen screenshots. I'm sure you're going to get to it. I'll just say one thing off the top. If there's a 50% chance that if you would have been like, hey, who's one guy from your generation that you wouldn't want to box with?

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

I'd be like, Sanga, that guy you talk about, barrel chest.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

He's like the nicest guy ever. But that. Nope, I wouldn't be talking.

[Holger Rune]

Nope.

[Host 2]

So. So basically, for those that don't know, in. In early December, Sanga, it was, was quoted saying that he believes center and Alcaraz are benefiting from a weaker era, saying, I would like to see them play Del Potro, Murray and a younger Djokovic, Nadal and Federer in a row. Right now, it's just the two of them. And then Mortagloo got onto socials and commented, I don't think Sanga would have regularly beaten Draper, Rune, Demon Air, Fritz Shelton or faa. To which then Songa clapped back. You'll never have experience what it's like to be a tennis player, to step onto a court. You're not, you're not the most qualified person to give me lessons. Which then I think then Patrick got into somebody else's comments where somebody wrote, Prime Joe would have beaten players like FAA and Draper almost every time. But. Okay. And then Patrick wrote, probably, but Prime Joe was only one season.

[Holger Rune]

Oh.

[Host 2]

Which I mean, it's kind of tough to say. Guy that made number five in the world. Pretty sure it's a resume more than one season.

[Host 1]

Yeah. Okay.

[Host 2]

So here.

[Host 1]

Okay. So I kind of disagree with different parts of this at the same time. And there's probably one specific comment that I, I think is maybe over the line generational arguments will happen till the end of time. I personally, James Blake put it in a really smart way as. As he's prone to do. He basically said, is the game always better over time? Is it better than it was 20 years ago? I think those of us who aren't kind of stuck would say yes, everything probably gets better over time. That doesn't diminish anyone or anything from 20 years ago. But you watch the French Open final last year and then you play it back to 30 years ago. It just looks different. Right. I think Joe's point, that generation swallowed up a lot of really great players.

[Holger Rune]

Right.

[Host 1]

I think Murray was, you know, if he's one of the best of all time.

[Holger Rune]

Right.

[Host 1]

He won three majors, but I think he's one of the best of all time consistently. Del Potro is in that comment like he had it not been for injuries. Yes, it was a rough generation with the big three. You know, Joe, I don't know that he likes to be in these public fights, and I think Patrick doesn't mind them at all. The one takeaway I had where my mind kind of started racing, and I think, you know, I don't know that I would ever say I beat this guy every time. Like, I don't. That's probably wrong to say with. If you're. If you're Joe, and I really like Joe. And then Patrick saying, you wouldn't have beaten it, but Patrick saying, prime was one year. So let's walk that out. Joe, I think made semis of slams in, like, five different years. Was top 10. One master series event separated by. I think he won one in 08. I lost to him in Bersee, and then I think he won one like, six or seven years later. So the spacing between those is pretty significant. Five in the world Grand Slam finalist, has played a ton of big matches, beaten all of the big three. As a coach, I think it's dangerous to discredit a career like that flippantly. I can't imagine being 80 in the world going onto the court with a coach who had just discarded someone flippantly saying that they only had one. You know, essentially saying they had one good year. That's a tough one when you have a place where you're kind of building players up, you know, look, the conversation we just had with Holger, is he discrediting every year that Holger, who he was working with, is he discrediting all of those years? Because there has to be some consistency.

[Host 2]

I mean, that's what.

[Host 1]

He was four in the world, and then he wasn't. Are we discrediting all of those other years? If you have to win a Twitter fight, yeah, that's a tough one. That's a slippery slope. And I think it's. I don't know that it plays well with players. You know, Joe saying, you've never been that, that's fine. I don't personally believe that. Like, I do a show with John Wertheim. He's never played pro tennis. I think he has a lot of great opinions and provides a lot of great context, and where we see it from is very different. I think there's a lot of space for that. And. And there's no chance John would sit here and be dismissive about anyone who is ranked 5 in the world or had the career that Joe Wilford Sanga had. I think that's dangerous when you don't have a player pedigree to fall back on. Frankly, I think I can say things that are more critical. One, I'll raise my hand and say it about myself, and two, I know what it feels like. I'm not saying you can't have an opinion. I'm saying you shouldn't be condescending when you. When you don't exactly know what it's like. That rubbed me the wrong way a little bit. But I also just don't think you can say, like, well, my generation was better than this gen. Like, I don't think I agree with that. I do know Joe Orfedsonga was a hell of a player, and I do know that I don't want to participate in any of them anymore, but I kind of like it when people start fighting on Twitter.

[Host 2]

Yeah, you're off. You're off.

[Host 1]

I'm off. I haven't been in a while.

[Host 2]

You know, if it gets to you, it's some good beef.

[Host 1]

I had some. If it gets to me, it's. That's gone through a funnel. People are sending me screenshots.

[Host 2]

Yeah.

[Host 1]

Of the fight. I just went. When he was like, prime Joe was one year. I was like, I. That. I don't know. I didn't like that. That. That. That felt gross to me. You know what I hope's not going to feel gross?

[Host 2]

What?

[Host 1]

Your point system for the draw show.

[Host 2]

It's going to be so good this week. It's going to be so good. I mean, so listen, we have. We have Love all tomorrow with Kim and Blair, and they're going to run through what it's like.

[Host 1]

The ONS episode was cool.

[Host 2]

The ONS episode was cool. We have a great Q. And Andy, we have a. It's going to be junior tennis, kind of focused.

[Host 1]

Okay.

[Host 2]

Some great questions. And then we have our draw show. So we got a busy week.

[Host 1]

I'm ready. I'm ready. Let's go. Thank you for watching, sir.