Mary Carillo talks Hall of Fame, Roger Federer, Becoming a Broadcaster & More

Summary

Podcast Summary: Served with Andy Roddick

Episode: Mary Carillo talks Hall of Fame, Roger Federer, Becoming a Broadcaster & More
Date: July 21, 2026
Host: Andy Roddick
Guests: Jon Wertheim, Mary Carillo

Episode Overview

This episode centers on honoring Mary Carillo’s storied career as she’s inducted into the International Tennis Hall of Fame. Andy Roddick and Jon Wertheim host a lively and insightful conversation with Carillo, touching on her transition from player to broadcasting legend, her relationship with peers, memories from nearly five decades in sports media, gender dynamics in tennis commentary, and sharing a class with Roger Federer. The episode is vibrant, humorous, and filled with inside stories and advice for both aspiring broadcasters and tennis fans.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Post-Wimbledon Roundup & News

• Racket Rundown: Brief updates on tournament results (Rublev, Tsitsipas, Merida, Kriskikova) in the week following Wimbledon.
• Carlos Alcaraz’s Hair & Wrist: Humorous fixation on Alcaraz’s fast-growing hair and concern/speculation about his lingering wrist injury.
  • "That guy’s like a human Chia pet." – Andy (06:09)
• Spanish Tennis & World Cup: Rafa Nadal’s exuberant celebration after Spain’s World Cup win and international tennis stars' presence highlighted growing global reach.
• Funny Detour: Discussion about visiting the U.S. and obsession with ranch dressing ("Welcome to America, we put this delicious thing in a plastic packet." – Andy, 10:31)

2. Tennis Balls Controversy

• Unification & Player Health (13:08–20:49)
  • ATP’s new initiative to unify tennis balls by swing (surface/season), aiming for rollout by 2027–2029.
  • New experiment: changing balls more frequently to prevent player injuries.
  • Player Perspective: Andy shares frustrations with switching between brands/tensions mid-tournament stretch.
    • “That was like a nightmare run ... playing with one [ball] on Sunday, totally different one Tuesday.” – Andy (15:04)
  • Consensus: It's a positive, overdue step; slams will likely adopt best practices.

3. Mary Carillo: Spotlight & Hall of Fame Reflections

Introduction & Career Highlights (21:44–25:03)

• Six Emmys, three Peabodys, 45 years in media.
• “She was the voice of many of my tennis memories ... called it like she saw it and was always fair.” – Andy (02:58, 22:29)
• Mary’s surprising reaction to her induction news.
  • “I did not see this coming. I really didn't … I'm only the sixth or seventh woman going in as a contributor.” – Mary (25:03)

Hall of Fame Ceremony & Roger Federer (27:46–29:27)

• Tickets for the weekend sold out in two minutes due to Federer’s induction.
• On sharing the weekend with Federer: “I’d be a little surprised if Roger can get through this whole celebration without crying.” – Mary (28:28)

Breaking into Sports Broadcasting (36:50–39:16)

• Serendipitous start: interviewed spontaneously at MSG after a few beers; led to a try-out in commentary.
  • “The moral of the story is drink.” – Andy (39:16)
• Importance of curiosity, luck, and a willingness to try new things.

Gender in Tennis Broadcasting (32:47–35:16)

• Still few women calling men's matches—an ongoing, “makes-no-sense” inequity.
  • “It doesn't happen that much. And when it happens, you're so damn happy.” – Mary (33:37)
• Story of Darren Cahill being prevented from calling matches he was most expert on.

Finding Your Voice & Preparation (41:02–46:46)

• Carillo’s talent for humanizing athletes and storytelling.
  • “You have to give athletes ... some story, some bit of information ... so we don’t just feel like we’re watching cyborg robots play.” – Andy (41:02)
• Legendary Olympic moments: the infamous “badminton rant.”
  • “Double luge is a bar game gone wrong ... deliriously dumb.” – Mary (42:58)

Broadcasting Advice & Behind the Scenes (47:11–55:25)

• Concise, selective commentary: “Pick your spots … Make them want to hear what you have to say.” – Mary (52:54)
• The challenge of entering established broadcast teams and the value of mentorship.

On Cursing and Tone (49:10–51:16)

• Mary’s “filthy mouth” behind the scenes, but conscious restraint on air.
  • “Normally, it's a sign of laziness ... but at a certain point you think, ah, what the—right.” – Mary (49:41)

Hall of Fame Speech Preparation (59:18–61:56)

• The daunting task of condensing a lifetime's worth of gratitude and reflection.
  • “It is daunting, again, because there are so many people. … I’ve just had great fortune.” – Mary (59:18)

Taking Chances and the "Fuck It Gene" (65:22–67:29)

• Carillo’s willingness to take on new, strange assignments (Olympics, dog shows, etc.).
  • “It’s mostly curiosity ... I do actually want to. I think I could do that.” – Mary (66:06)
  • “I love the throbbing athletic heart.” – Mary (67:39)

4. Notable Federer Moments

• On what makes Federer unique:
  • “You run out of words ... how he makes you feel ... I don’t know of any tennis player who can grow up not wanting to look like that and play like that and act like that.” – Mary (74:10)
• His personality unchanged by fame: “... so consistent in who he is. … And he has been so consistent in who he is.” – Jon (76:17)

5. Memorable Anecdotes & Quotes

• Story of being struck by lightning in Mahwah, NJ, while commentating: “Lightning struck our metal booth … we’re trying hard not to die.” – Mary (69:06)
• On commentating disaster fill: “Now all you’ve got is filler and fluffer-nutter and, you know, nonsense.” – Mary (70:43)
• On Federer’s self-awareness: “He knows exactly what he is. He’s not a dick about it.” – Andy (77:33)

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Notable Quotes (with Timestamps)

• “I did not see this coming. I really didn't ... I'm only the sixth or seventh woman going in as a contributor.” — Mary Carillo (25:03)
• “The moral of the story is drink.” — Andy Roddick (39:16)
• “Pick your spots ... Make them want to hear what you have to say.” — Mary Carillo (52:54)
• “Double luge is a bar game gone wrong ... deliriously dumb.” — Mary Carillo (42:58)
• “You run out of words ... how he makes you feel ... I don't know of any tennis player who can grow up not wanting to look like that and play like that and act like that.” — Mary Carillo on Federer (74:10)
• “He knows exactly what he is. He’s not a dick about it.” — Andy Roddick on Federer (77:33)
• “I love the throbbing athletic heart.” — Mary Carillo (67:39)
• “It’s curiosity ... I do actually want to. I think I could do that.” — Mary Carillo (66:06)
• “If you have a problem with Doug Spreen, you’re probably a dick.” — Andy Roddick (62:04)

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Important Timestamps

• 01:41–04:43 – Andy and Jon gush over Mary Carillo’s impact and set up the interview.
• 13:08–20:49 – Deep dive into tennis ball unification and player experience.
• 21:44–25:03 – Mary joins, discusses her broadcasting journey and Hall of Fame news.
• 27:46–29:27 – On sharing the Hall of Fame spotlight with Federer.
• 36:50–39:16 – Mary’s spontaneous first broadcast experience.
• 41:02–46:46 – The art of personalizing athletes and legendary Olympics rants.
• 49:10–51:16 – Broadcasting advice and philosophy on cursing.
• 59:18–61:56 – Preparing for the Hall of Fame speech.
• 65:22–67:29 – Embracing new challenges and The “fuck it gene.”
• 74:06–78:18 – Describing Federer’s unique legacy.

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Tone & Style

The conversation is informal, witty, and candid, with the hosts and guest never shying away from telling stories, poking fun at themselves, and offering authentic advice. The wit is sharp, the affection palpable, and the podcast brims with personal anecdotes that reveal as much about tennis and broadcasting as they do about friendship, humility, and the love of sport.

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For Listeners Who Missed the Episode

This episode is for anyone interested in the intersections of tennis, broadcasting, sports history, and the personalities who shape public perception of championship sport. Mary Carillo’s journey from pro to Hall of Fame broadcaster, her unique voice in a male-dominated space, her humility and curiosity, and her joy in embracing new challenges are all spotlighted. Moments of laughter, practical wisdom, and heartfelt appreciation make this a must-listen—especially if you want to understand what distinguishes a legendary sports commentator from the crowd.

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Transcript

[A]

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[B]

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[B]

Hey everyone.

[A]

Welcome to serve. Brought to you by ServiceNow JW in the house. Techie Sean Producer Mike has a great team because he was on a boat. On a boat. If you know, you know. Welcome. Welcome to your post. Wimbledon Hangover show.

[C]

Exactly what it is, right?

[B]

It is.

[A]

I'm excited. One of my kind of, I want to say someone I really, I've really appreciated through the years and someone that I. The more time I spend around her, the more I like her. Which doesn't always happen in tennis, but an absolute legend of all legends was a player. I think she's so good at being a broadcaster that people, some people who watch her on the Olympics and everything else don't know that she was a player and won a mixed doubles Grand Slam and was ranked 30ish in the world. Mary Carillo is going to join our show on the other side. JW thoughts?

[C]

Yeah, I think that's always a good sign, right when people will say wait a second, she does tennis. And even people in tennis say wait a second. Second, she won a major. No, she's, she's a treasure. I think she's helped both of us coming at this game from a very different perspective. I know she's been meaningful to you and she was very helpful to me when I was transitioning from print to tv. She did it her way. She did it with principal and this hall of Fame. You and I are determined. God bless Roger Federer. She is not going to be. No one's going to put Mary in a corner. This is well deserved. And this is going to be her weekend in Newport as well.

[A]

Yeah. And obviously John alluded to it. Part of this induction class, along with one Roger Federer. I know that that's going to be the tailwind behind the entire weekend and deservedly so. And also, Mary needs her space. She has been a transformative figure in this game. The voice of many of the matches that created my fandom, was commentator on many of my matches. Always called it like she saw it and was always fair. You know, if she had something negative to say, you probably deserved it. And if you did something that warranted praise, then she would have said it. You know, I. You never got the feeling that she was staying saying stuff for clicks or her own benefit, which. Which I endlessly respect. So she's on the other side. I'm so thankful that she's going to join our show. 17 Olympics, six Emmys, three Peabody's has covered this. 45 years in sports media, Real sports with Brian Goebbels, an absolute institution of all institutions. I think she did 25 plus years. It was almost a 30 year run and she was 25. 27 years. Yeah, like, it just, it was just absurd. And I think people will love this interview. She's so good at her job and she's so. I want to say. I don't want to say she's serious. I want to say she takes her work very seriously because, you know, she wants to be great at it and she is great at it. But it's hilarious. Like low key JW hilarious. Filth, pot of a mouth.

[C]

You use the word interview. To me, this is what podcasting also does well, where you just let it rip. But yeah, this is a good. This is an hour well spent. You'll laugh. Good.

[A]

Let's get to the racket rundown. I gotta be honest, I'm always gonna be honest with your listeners. And I know the expectation is that I watch every week and most of the weeks that's true. I didn't watch anything after Wimbledon, not a single thing. But I know who won. For the racket rundown. Rublev gets off the Schneid. Happy to see Tsitsipas win a title. And those are in Bostad and Ghostad, respectively. No chance you would ever mix those up on Clay after grass, Daniel Morita wins his first ATB title. So a couple of guys who have won a lot, and a guy who has won for the first time, Barbora Krishikova, beats Sakuri and kind of ruins the home run there in Athens. But always happy to see Krishikova win. It's our first win since Wimby of 2024. You know, she. She seemed like she was building at Wimbledon. The other two, Rublev and Tsitsebas, maybe not so much, but kind of fun. Fun winners this week.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, you said it like there's a reason why multiple players decided to get married this week. This is a bit of a week coming off Wimbledon. Good to see Mary Dale winning that title too, because it's about time Spain

[A]

won something than goodness. How long has it. How long had it been since they'd won stuff?

[C]

A while. What do you think? If you're going by, like, headline space or bandwidth on Marco's website, um, Merida picked the wrong Sunday to win his maiden ATP title. But we'll talk.

[A]

I'll tell you what was the bigger victory. Merida. Merida winning or Alcaraz's flow? I mean, that guy's like. Alcaraz is like a human Chia pet. Have you seen his hair at the World Cup?

[C]

Didn't he, like, have short hair about six weeks ago? Like, that's, that's. He shaved.

[A]

He shaved his head 10 days ago. And the. What we saw during the World cup was the outcome. I mean, that is. He's like sonic, right?

[C]

It's like these guys that shave half their face and then they go do the other half and the other one's grown back. No. Good. Good to see Carl. You know, Novak was there too, wasn't Anisa Mova and the Williams scissors were in Miami. I like, I like the tennis. You know, it was the same thing with the Olympics two summers ago. You get a sense of how big tennis is globally.

[B]

It's.

[C]

I mean, Carlos Alcaraz was there basically before the game, ready to hand off the trophy. Great to see him. Great to see his hair. We'll see if that impedes his movement when he returns to tennis.

[A]

It actually. You say there's a joke, but that much hair has to have some effect on something.

[C]

Five pounds heavy.

[B]

The drag. He's going to slide like a foot shorter.

[A]

Yeah, it's not even hair. It's like a mane. Like, it's, it's. It's absurd. I say with a lot of envy not disguised at all.

[C]

Good to be 23.

[B]

All jokes aside on him, though, I

[A]

mean, obviously, they don't speak for me. You don't speak. No, sorry. You don't speak for me. You can't say all jokes aside, like, I'm done.

[C]

Sorry.

[A]

You can say what you want to say.

[B]

But, yeah, they cut to him a lot during the. During the match for the World cup, and he still has a bit of a wrap on that wrist. I mean, what do you guys make of that? He's on the Cincinnati Open entry list. He's on the US Open entry list.

[A]

I mean, so here I was like, oh, gosh, that's not great. And then I was like, you know, if I'm him, do I wear, like, a rollerblading, like, wrist guard? But also, like, if you're in a bunch of people and you have. You've had a wrist injury, I would 100% have some marker that's like, don't come up and shake my hand. Like, maybe that's all it was.

[C]

That's ever, like, interact with a boxer and they basically, like, they give you the fist bump, but they don't like to shake hands. I do wonder if it was precautionary. But, yeah, we're. You know, this is. We're in late July, and there's still a protective coating. We'll. We don't want to speculate. We eagerly await his return to an. Sorely or not. But, yeah, I noticed that, too, Mike.

[A]

Yeah, it's. It's interesting because all we want is for him to be back in the mix. And pragmatically, I'm going, take your time. Long road ahead. And it seems like he's done that, right? It doesn't seem like he's rushing something or, you know, announcing a timeline where you're going, oof, you sure? Like, you know, so listen, rap. No rap. I would have something. Even if it was, like, mostly fine. Even if it was like, I'm close, I'm hitting balls, whatever. I'm not going to go to the World cup and shake 250 hands and some guy who's been on one comes and goes a little too. Like, I get it. So hopefully that's all it is. But obviously, yeah, anytime we see any, I mean, we're going to have kind of all eyes on the wrist area always, until we see him come out and let her. He's ripping it, you know, So I don't know, but I almost didn't even notice the rapping because of the hair into that hair. It's amazing.

[C]

Did you happen to catch Rafa's celebration when Spain won?

[A]

No, I didn't see it. What happened?

[C]

This is a 40 year old man who's done a lot of winning in his day. This is no stranger to sporting success. And you would have thought he was 8 years old and his favorite football team won the super bowl in the last play of the game. He was 50. Rafa with that.

[A]

Yeah, it was fun.

[C]

It was fun, right?

[A]

Yeah. I love, I love like my takeaways from the World cup or everyone coming here and going to like, Buc EE's and talking about how Grinch great ranch sauces.

[C]

Ranch dressing is like.

[A]

No, it's called the ranch sauce. That's apparently what it's named now. And it's. It is phenomenal.

[C]

Carry on. Did you see those, like, instructions the

[B]

TSA was trying to explain to them about not putting it in their carry ons?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

To which they responded. Have you tasted this? What is wrong with you? Yeah, obviously I want to take it home.

[B]

I think they, somebody like introduced them to the, the packets because you can buy the seasoning packet and take it home and mix it with like mayonnaise or something like that.

[A]

And like, let's just, let's just. This is, that's, that's America. Let's stick this delicious tasting thing inside of a plastic packet.

[C]

Oil prices might be high, but we've got, we have, we have other currency.

[A]

Thanks for listening to served. We will be right back. Mike, you must be excited. It's almost time for the tour to stop by your hometown of Cincinnati.

[B]

I'm pumped. I've actually been meaning to ask you, is it cool if I take off some time and go to the tournament myself?

[A]

Funny you should say that. I've actually been meaning to ask you if we should do our annual serve retreat in your old stopping grounds. Those weeks. Can you host us all?

[B]

Listen, you know I'm a hospitable guy,

[A]

but we'll talk about this later. But fortunately, like our London trip, we'll have plenty of options for places to stay from the fans out there that list their homes on Airbnb.

[B]

Well, in that case, I'm in. That place really had everything that we needed to feel at home across the pond. Staying right in the heart of the Wimbledon village, we stumbled upon the best local bars, restaurants, not only for some killer fish and chips, but to meet the coolest people who traveled from all over the world to come to the tournament.

[A]

Exactly. And now thousands of fans are going to be on this side of the pond. All summer to catch the hard court swing so you at home can be part of the action by listing your space on Airbnb. And guess what? You'll even bring in some extra money while you're at it. You can put it towards your next big trip, especially if you're already planning on being away this summer. Don't let your home just sit empty. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how [e-mail] host we've all been there. You get off the court, out of the gym, or back from a run and you just don't have it in you to cook that healthy meal you're craving. For me, eating healthy has never been a matter of willpower. It's a setup problem. That's where Factor comes in. With Factor, athletes and fans alike are hitting their nutrition goals without the planning, grocery runs or cooking. Every Factor meal is crafted with functional ingredients built around your objectives. Whether that's weight loss, overall nutrition or strength, you can hit your goals knowing that factor bans over 175 ingredients. No artificial colors or sweeteners, no high fructose corn sirup, no refined seed oils. Just nutrient dense food. This is exactly what I would have used on tour if it had been available. Head to factor meals.com/served 50 off and use code served 50 off. That's 50 off to get 50% off and free daily greens per box with new subscription only while supplies last until September 27 through 2026. See website for more details. All right, back to the show.

[B]

Before we before we get to Mary, I wanted to ask you guys, I was reading a athletic article this morning and they they put something out that the ATP has announced that they have a plan to try and unify the balls by the swing. So like each time a year by 2027 with full centralization across the whole tour. Just the ATP Tour targeted for 2029 and they also announced that they'll be testing a fix for some of the problems that the players been screaming about, which is worn down balls straining their arms. Starting with August 3rd at a challenger event in Lexington, Kentucky. They'll change balls after every after five games instead of seven and then every seven games instead of nine. Obviously this is trying to address an issue that we've talked about a lot. I just wanted to get your first impressions.

[C]

Great.

[A]

Listen, when when people are yelling, screaming and you take feedback and you adjust, great. And I know a lot of people are going to go it's 2026. Why are we waiting till 2029. Like all things in tennis, in order to make change, you have to wait for contracts for all the moving parts in all the different tournaments to at least expire, come to an agreement, whatever it may be. So I guarantee that's the first date that is available based on contracts that are in place. This is, this is great. This is great. All you want as a player is like if you complain, if you have a concern is for someone to hear you show some progress.

[C]

Right.

[A]

And I know we've been wrapped up in revenue share, not revenue share, show some progress to the players. I got to think this will be well received.

[C]

JW do, do you, I'm curious, as someone who has actually been in this position, do you buy the premise? I mean, I remember when this has come up in the past, some of these tournaments have said, listen, I swear it's not about our deals with individual ball. The balls in Indian Wells should not be the same balls that we use at some fast indoor event if we have this uniform tennis ball.

[A]

Well, the way that I heard this, and maybe I got it wrong, was that it was for swings. So grass court swing, right? You get used to a ball for that specific run. Maybe it's the clay court swing. The biggest nightmare as a player would be, and I'll get this slightly wrong, if anything, you'd go from Washington and then you would go have to play in Canada and the ball two different brands, completely different. So in a day or you'd have to completely switch what you've been doing training with for two, three weeks into a match on a Tuesday. If you did well and it have it be completely different and then switch back for the US Open, right? So that was like a nightmare run of you're switching and that, that kind of creates some, some, some stress. So if I understood what Mike was saying, it's going to be for specific swings. So I can wrap my head around, I can prepare for four or five weeks. I can adjust my string tension accordingly. I can adjust racket specs if I need to. I can make adjustments if I know what's coming down the shooter for five or six weeks at a time. That's probably the best you're going to do because there's not, there's not a world where you're going to use. You know, Schlesinger is very specific. They're very good at making a grass court ball. Now are they going to make one for hard courts? No. Are you going to take this ball that is on grass and apply it to Indian Wells. No. So I think a version of what you're saying is absolutely accurate. And if I as a player know that I have a four or five, six week run, I can put that ball into play in practice. In the lead up, I can make adjustments with equipment that will help take some stressors off of it. As opposed to playing on a Sunday with one and then playing a match on a Tuesday with something completely different. That's a nightmare.

[C]

Right? Yeah. And I also think as far as the other point that Mike raised about the free, I'd heard that at Wimbledon they were going to speed up the frequency. I never understood this, like, oh, it's, it's five, four and he's getting to serve with new ball.

[A]

This matters.

[C]

And I'm always like, right, say more.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. So like, yeah, you, you basically are, are the, the layer. You go in the pitch, count seven to nine when you get to nine, you know, listen, math. But like a Warren ball and, and then when you're adding two or three games to it becomes exponentially worse than it is. When you warm up and you're two games in, those are still fresh. It gets worse and worse and worse. So basically how it's effectuated in the last 20 or 30% of its match, life is way worse. So that actually matters like five and now it doesn't change everything. But the like little wins at the margins are important. And if you're a player and you're hearing, oh, okay, that's great. And, and like for fans, this isn't just a player centric thing. If the balls are quicker and you're switching them more often. When I get new balls as a player, I'm going, okay, this is quicker, I can play differently. I might come in more. I think it will encourage different styles of play than when a, you know, you're nine games in and you've been beat bagging the ball back and forth, you know, for 17 ball rallies at Indian Wells and it's this big. You're never coming to the net. You're just not because there's too much time and you're hosed. So hopefully the optimistic version of my fandom says, listen, if you, if you trade out the balls that often, you're going to see a variance in, in style with players and what's available to them strategically, which, you know, hopefully is not too nerdy. But I think this is a, I think this is a net win.

[C]

No, totally. I mean any, anything that compresses that time and I mean it is a little Strange. The Knicks are going down court and luckily they've got the ball with, with better grip for this possession. I mean, anything to sort of take variables out of the equation, I think is probably a good thing. So. Yeah, that's a good point, too. I mean, if the balls are popping, it's going to change tactically. Anything compressing that window, I think is probably a good thing.

[A]

Yeah, I don't see where the downside is for this. I mean, I kind of jokingly, before we popped on was like, oh, great, great. If I'm 26 and my shoulder has been beat to crap and my elbows beat to grab three and a half more years and it'll be good, you know, I'm going, God. But listen, I'm sure they, they picked that based on what was realistic, when they could actually do it. Saying that contracts with tournaments aren't a factor. I know, I don't believe that at all. You know, maybe I'm wrong, but my instinct, I bet you five bucks on it that it, that it is a factor, you know, might lose it. But I'm, you know, I like, I like the chances of it, but go ahead.

[B]

I was just gonna say, just a reminder, the Slams are obviously outside of this. Right. So this doesn't affect kind of what they're doing, but it's not like they're gonna ignore the data. And ultimately the players council from the ATP side is involved in this and they're going to review the results from the Lexington Challenger with this new format at their US Open meeting. So they're engaging with each other and they're making informed decisions with feedback, like you said, Andy, from actual players.

[A]

Yeah, and this will pressure like the Slam here. Listen, all the issues that the Slams have versus the players right now, money, scheduling, you know, and, and the ATP. There's no chance that the Slams don't fall in line with. If something's working as far as the way the ball was rolled out, this is not the fight to pick. This is an easy adjustment to where you're not going to layer this onto a revenue conversation. And, you know, it's like fire and gasoline. Like you're not going to put those two closer for no reason. So, you know, I don't see this being an issue, you know, with the Slams versus the Tours versus the players. Like it, like it often is when it becomes that mess. But jw, Mary Carrillo on the other side.

[C]

Let's get her.

[A]

I can't wait. We will be right back with the legend, Mary Carillo.

[C]

Thank you.

[A]

For listening to served. Thanks for listening to served. We will be right back. This episode is brought to you by ServiceNow. Look, I have my dream job. I watch tennis, I think about tennis, I talk about tennis. But even dream jobs have not so dreamy parts. The stuff that gets in the way of the actual work, that's where ServiceNow's AI specialists come in. They don't just tell you what you should do about your busy work. They actually do it. Start to finish, cases closed, requests handled, no extra work for you. That way, you and your team can focus on the work that matters, which for me is explaining at length why tennis players are the best athletes on earth. Sorry, everyone else on earth. To learn how to put AI to work for people, visit ServiceNow.com

[C]

all right,

[A]

back to the show. Hey, everyone. Welcome back to Served as promised. And I know we bragged about this woman on the front side of that break, and I'm just gonna say it again to embarrass her in front of her. Mary Carrillo, one of my idols in this space. She was the voice of many of my tennis memories, both as a fan and then for many of my losses throughout, throughout the years, going to be a member, and deservedly so, of this year's tennis hall of fame class. Six Emmys, three Peabody's. Mary, welcome.

[D]

Thank you. Thank you very much. Many happy returns unserved. It's a great podcast.

[A]

We were. We were. We were talking before. Before you kind of zoomed into the room, and I was like, this is messed up. This is like. This is like playing horse with Steph Curry and expecting Steph Curry to take you seriously. That's what we're doing right now.

[D]

Not. Not true. Not true at all. I. But I have to say, because I've certainly interviewed you a lot. John, too. John, do you remember when Andy would take a loss and he'd come into the press room and, I mean, normally he's very, very funny and very bright and astute. Every now and then, he'd show up cranky. No, but you knew. But you knew that if you kept him in there long enough, his natural inclination to be funny would kick in. How many times have we enjoyed that? All right, we got him.

[C]

It was like D Day where the first line, they would eat it, right? So the first guys off the U boats, the Uvaldo boat, the first guys to ask the questions, they would take it. And then by the end, things, the beach would soften and we'd all be okay. Okay.

[D]

That's exactly what it was like I'm

[A]

so mad that there was actually a scouting report, and I'm angrier that it's accurate, and. But also, you guys are.

[D]

You're.

[A]

You're forgetting. You're forgetting something, right? And I think the service. And you guys are, obviously, you're pros, and you've been doing it a long time. You guys were really good about letting, like, the local journalists lay on the grenade first.

[C]

Exactly.

[A]

And so then when I see the people that I see all the time and who have prestige and whatever, like, you were really good about letting, like. Like Tony fucking Chucklefuck come in and answer, you know, ask some question about having long volleys when he meant rallies.

[D]

I like the locals who would, you know, you would walk in and they'd say, congratulations on the win, and you'd say, I lost. Some people really. Some people really did not.

[A]

That was the other Andy. His name is Murray. He's from Scotland. I don't know what to tell you, Mary. Congratulations on the hall of Fame. I know it's hard to kind of people say, how does it feel? And it almost, like, minimizes decades of work, but how did you find out? What was the process like? Was it a surprise, or were you like, I'm Mary Carrillo, obviously, this is gonna happen at some point.

[D]

No, it was a surprise. I mean, obviously, I knew I was on the ballot, and then I got a. Months ago. I'll bet it happened like this for you as well. And I got a. There was a Zoom call happening, and the people on it were Patrick McEnroe and Katrina Adams and John McEnroe, as I didn't know, you know, and Dan from the hall of Fame people. So at that point, I kind of knew they were going to say you lost by. So you didn't. You had four votes. You're not in the hall. So that's kind of. Once I got that zoom call. I think you use the word surreal when it happens. You don't. Sometimes you anticipate, if you've been part of a good work, you anticipate that there might be some kind of award for it. But I never. I did not see this coming. I. I really didn't. And there have been very few women. I think I'm only the sixth or seventh woman who's going in as a contributor. You know, most of the people in that hall are guys, so that makes it even. Even a little bit sweeter that I got in. But, no, I'm. I'm still. All these months later, I'm still Very moved thinking about it. And I've got to tell you, I. I've been watching, you know, hall of fame speeches, including yours, which I've watched a couple of times, which, as you may remember, is 27 minutes long. They told, and it's so good that I'm thinking seriously of just taking your speech. People would be confused. People will be confused when they find out that, yeah, Doug Spree. I'm gonna have Doug Spring come up, and then I'm gonna thank my wife, Brooklyn Decker, and my two children. No, no, I'm taking the whole thing. Yeah, it was very moving. And. And I don't know if anybody here is watching this who has not watched some of the speeches. I watched again, Pete Sampras, when he went in. Now, this is a guy who kept a lot of things close to his necktie for his whole career, but this. By the second sentence of his acceptance speech into the hall, he was already crying. He barely got through it. And all you do when that happens is you just. You just. Come on, Pete. Come on, Pete. I mean, I've watched him a lot, and I never had to openly cheer for him to get through something, but that's how moved he was. So when I see what it means to. To you people, it just. It makes it mean everything more for me.

[A]

Do you think that Roger feels like he won't be the center of the show because you got inducted this year?

[D]

I'm sure it's not one of his concerns. I mean, you know, Roger is going to be amazing. And. And as soon as it was announced that Roger was going into the hall, the. The tickets sold out in two minutes. They had to add 3,000 seats to accommodate it. I mean, it's going to be.

[C]

You're being modest.

[D]

No, I'm.

[C]

I'm not.

[D]

I'm being pragmatic.

[C]

Wait, wait, in all, all seriousness, how are you navigating that. That garage thing? Yeah. How long?

[D]

I. I genuinely think most of the people who say they're, you know, who have asked me for tickets. Oh, I'd really like to be there for you. Yeah. Bite me. Yeah. It's not why you want to go. It's not why you want to go. Obviously, he's the first of the big three, the big four, to make his way in. And obviously, when Serena and Venus get in, it'll be the same thing. And that will happen in the coming years, won't it? So. And we know how much Roger loves history. We know how much it's going to mean to him. I'd be a little bit surprised if Roger can get through this whole celebration without crying. You know, I mean, it's. Andy again, you. You said it. You said it very well in your. In your speech. It's. I. You probably dreamed of it, you know, I didn't dream of this. It was never. It was never in my imagining that.

[A]

Like, it's. It's a strange thing because you do work, and I think at some point in your. I mean, listen, you like your resume. You're, you know, you go from the Olympics to real sports to, you know, all of the CBS and the ESPN. And I mean, it just, like, you know, 45 years in this, and you mentioned, you know, I might get the stats wrong. But from. For me, you were the first national women's voice for tennis. Like, you were that first person. So I'm sure at some point in your career, otherwise, I'm gonna call bullshit on false modesty. Like, at some point in your career, you do enough work, enough good work to where all of a sudden it clicks one day and you're like, oh, this is like a possibility. That was. That. That was kind of. My thing is like, okay, then there's precedent, right? You look at, I don't know, like, I looked at Michael Chang, and I'm going, okay, he won a major. He was. You know, won a bunch of matches, he won a bunch of tour titles. He's in. So there's precedent with this kind of resume to limp in. I'm. I'm sure at some point you were like, listen, I've. I've. I've done a lot of work in this. In this sport, and. And outside of this sport, which I definitely want to get to also.

[B]

It.

[A]

It can't be a total surprise. And yet it doesn't take away from the gratitude, at least for me, it didn't. It's like I get to, like, actually spend forever in the same room with these heroes of our sport. And that's the thing that kind of got me.

[D]

Well, thank you for that. Here's the thing, though, Andy. I didn't have the resume that would suggest that I should be in a booth talking about other tennis players. I mean, I wasn't that person. And so I was always waiting for someone to retire, and, you know, I'd be thrown out of the booth, you know, and. And that's why, I mean, the reporting I did, the, you know, the stories I told, that it was a little different from what a former champion would be talking about. Right? I mean, even when I would Call matches with John McEnroe. I realized that he was watching one end of the court where the guy was winning and I was watching the other end of the court where someone was losing. So, you know, it's all about perspective and what you bring to the party. And. And so I'm a little surprised that I lasted so long and the only sport I'm fluent in is tennis. So when I got to do. I mean, I've done 17 Olympics now I'm hoping to be in LA in 28. I. I'm bringing something different and that's. I think that's the difference. You know, I. Absolutely. I love the fact that you and Andre and Jim Currier and Lindsey Davenport, all these people not far removed from. I mean, you guys are so. You. You're seeing things so clearly through such different eyes. I don't have that. I never had that when I played. I didn't have it. That's why I lost so much. You know what I'm saying? So it's a little bit different. I love the fact that there are more women. They. And they deserve to be there and they prove it right away and they prove it for a long time. That's the part of this that I love. That it's not so gender based anymore. That said, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but did any woman call a men's final at Wimbledon this year?

[A]

I. I don't. Well, no, no. Mary Jo did, right, didn't she?

[D]

Yeah. Mary Jo would call the women's, but not the men's.

[B]

Right.

[D]

I mean, that's always been. That's always been a thing with me. Like it's still there very much and I'm not sure it has to be there. That doesn't make sense to me.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah, I guess that's right. I mean, I. It's weird because I've. It's surprising because I'll get. For some reason, there's like silos and I understand it skews one way, way more than the other, but I'll get stuff where it's like, yeah, I want to call any match. Like, I don't care. I don't care if it's. And. But it's like, oh, you unserved. You guys cover women's tennis all the time. I'm like, well, well, yeah, because it's like 50 of what we watch. So why, what's the other option? But it still feels like there are these silos that, to your point, that kind of.

[D]

Yeah.

[A]

Exist for really. No Reason anymore.

[D]

Well, I, I've called when, when I worked at espn, I called and NBC. Like I called the French Open men's final for NBC and I called the Australian Open for espn their final. And I've done a bunch of US Open men's finals. But it, it doesn't. It doesn't happen that much. And when it happens, you're so damn happy. I would love. There was a point where, when Darren Cahill, another voice my adore listening to. When Darren was working at ESPN because he was coaching Simona Halep, he wasn't allowed to call women's matches, you know, especially so. And nobody there knew women's matches better, knew those players better than Darren Cahill. He's like the ultimate coach.

[A]

But does that make any sense? Because was that same rule applied when he was coaching center?

[D]

Yeah, I don't think he did center matches either. I mean, I understand the coach part, but to take Darren off of women's matches, I would love to have heard Darren talk about more. You know what I'm saying? So there's still all these kinds of inequities.

[A]

If there's like a lack of real estate that you're talking about and then they put Darren on a women's match, is that going to be an issue?

[D]

Darren had to choose between ESPN and coaching, staying with sitter, and I think he chose wisely. But yeah, there's all those conflicts. I mean, there are. John, jump in here. I know you. You and I have had this conversation before.

[C]

Conflicts, tenets. No, I mean, at some point I do want to ask how you negotiated and current, you know, in present tense, negotiate this. This sort of the fine line between family and incestuous. And it's great that we all know each other and people share agents and share courtesy cars and sometimes I feel like that can infect objective coverage that serves the audience. I want to go back to one thing you said before, though, which is that, look, if you're. I mean, Andy for that. Andy and Andre and Jim and Lindsey, I mean, these are. These are towering champions of the sport and they all are really good at their job. But I also think there's something to be said. It's like how Michael Jordan is one of the worst NBA executives of all time and Steve Kerr is one of the great coaches. Why? Because Steve Kerr did not have the natural ability and the credentials, so he had to study the nuances of the sport and he had to study sports psychology. That's a. You know, I mean, I don't want to you were a great player and a major champion that. I don't know if everyone knows that.

[A]

Yeah, I know. She's like sandbagging like she.

[D]

She.

[C]

Exactly.

[A]

Pretty sure that we have the same amount of majors. Just carry on, John. And while we're here, I mean, just

[C]

Sue Mott as well. But no, I'm curious how, like, it's a blessing to the sport that someone gave you an opportunity. And again, when Chrissy retires, it's a natural that you move her to the booth. Great Martina game. How did you get in? I mean, it wasn't like today where you'd have the. The agent would get in the. I mean, how. How did you even get into this game?

[D]

I'd had a couple of beers at Madison Square Garden. One night at the Avon Championships at Madison Square Garden. I was just there to watch my friends, you know, I was. I was in be. I was out with a bad knee and I wanted to go see this thing. And they had. By the end of the night, all the big wigs, all the celebrities had been interviewed. And Tracy Olsen was going to play Ivan Gulagon in the last match of the night. It was pretty late at night, and I, of course, I was going to hang around for that. And so someone from Avon said, said to the TV guys, interview Mary, you know, she's. And again, I'd already blown the suds off a couple, so I sound the same. I sound the same no matter what I've eaten or drank. And, you know, anyway, so I started explaining why this is going to be a great match and they couldn't be different. And Tracy Desert and Yvonne is this. And one of the guys I was working with, Billy Talbert, the late, great Billy Talbert, said, let's bring her up to the booth. And they did. They just gave me one of those. One of the. I didn't even have headsets. They just put a microphone in front of me and I started. They let me go. You know, they'd had a long night of, you know, calling matches. And I, I just. It was. And it was a terrific match, and Tracy wanted close and somebody, thank God Mark Stolberger of USA Network had heard me that night, this pickup call. And after a couple of weeks after Wimbledon, he said, look, we're going to start showing women's matches on USA Network. Would you be interested in, you know, and call in some matches? And I was unemployed, recently unemployed. And I said, yeah, sure. So in the beginning, I just did women's matches, you know, and it wasn't A gig. I was teaching tennis too. Trying to figure out if I should make my way to college, which I had skipped and I'd skipped quite a bit of high school, not to make too fine a point of it.

[A]

Same.

[D]

So anyway, it just went from there. And then I started getting, you know, I started doing more tennis and then once I started doing men's tennis, it was a real gig. But that's how fortunate I was that some someone heard me that night. That's. I mean, that's just. That's a stroke of love.

[A]

The moral of the story is drink.

[D]

That's. That's my point.

[C]

Yeah. And it sounds like a podcast. You didn't have headphones. You just stood up and started talking.

[D]

Just started spewing, baby. Started spewing. But to that point, Andy, did you have any idea that this would become what it's become?

[A]

Served well, no, weirdly. And I told them, by the way, that we're not gonna be able to get through this interview without you finishing your point and then turning it and becoming the person who's telling the stories, that you wouldn't be able to help yourself. And that is exactly what you've done, like four times already. No, Mike, but Mike and I, it started because Mike and I, producer Mike and I found the bottom of a bottle of wine. So, like, like, I guess all good broadcast stories. Thanks for listening. We will be right back. All right, back to the show. One thing I'm very curious about, because in not to, you were so good at so many things on air, one of the things that always kind of jumped off the screen to me, just as a fan, was your ability to personalize the athletes, right? To tell some story, some bit of information, where they're from, what their cousin does, who their mother grew up with, whatever it might be. You were so good at like layering in a personal element. So we didn't just feel like we were watching like cyborg robots play. How did you kind of. What was the filtering mechanism with. Okay, I can read, read, read, read, read. And this is the thing that will kind of bring fandom in and make this seem personal and maybe even tilt the scales to where, like, I like this person. Maybe I'm cheering for them in this match because of that.

[D]

That's, that's. I think I, I do it all the time. I love the press rooms of these tournaments and I, I love the people. I've learned so much and I, I owe so much to the people who write long form stories about a particular athlete, especially when they're local to their country or whatever. And you know, if you spend time reading all that stuff, you realize, well, wait a minute. This, this is somebody to cheer for. This guy is booable. And I really want you people to know that he's a great player, but this is in his background. This is what you should just be aware of it. Okay? You know that, that's the kind of thing that especially, you know, in the beginning when I started doing this, this stuff, I, I obviously I knew the people in the locker. I knew these players. You know, some of them were my, A lot of them were my friends. But then when all these foreigners started getting better and better and dominating the sport. Now you've got to make people who've never heard of, of Mongolio Manganonzo. You've got to explain to them who this guy is and the fact that, you know, his father, you know, ran a fruit stand, for God's sakes. How did he make his way to Roland Garros? That's the part where, you know, you, you do, you have to give athletes. And especially I learned that so much at the Olympics. Every four years I watch swimming, that's it. I don't. Every four years I care about who the best Austrian loser in the world. Like so you really have to give them.

[A]

What was your. Sorry to interrupt. Continue this thought. What was your all time line about? Was it double luge? You said something about like it was the best bar game in the world. You said something like one of the best lines I've ever heard.

[D]

I was covering the winter Games, Salt Lake City and they put me up on the mountain where the luge and the bob's and the skeleton and these were. I mean it's this. I, I said, yeah, the double luge, it's, it's a bar. A bar game gone wrong. Yes. I mean a lot of these. There's no way. Most winter sports were not, were not developed and to invented because some, a whole bunch of guys were drunk at a bar. That's the only way to explain why these sports exist and why they're so dangerous and why I love them because so many of them are deliriously dumb. Yes. A bargain gone bad, I believe is what I said. Yeah.

[C]

Have you seen. Andy, have you seen the, have you seen the badminton essay as well? As long as we're going.

[A]

Yes. It was like. It just went like. It's been going nuts on TikTok recently, right?

[D]

It has, yeah. It's not a bad badminton rant. It's a Motherhood rant. Any. Ask at John Ask your. That's what it is. It's. It's what happens when you've got kids and they start playing a game and all of a sudden the entire neighborhood is in your driveway. And yes, badminton was the topic. And then kind of give us jw,

[A]

give us the context of that real quick. Just for people listening. If we're assuming that we have any listeners over 26 who aren't on TikTok,

[C]

I feel like we need to. We need to link this in show notes because I'm not going to do it. What year that was Athens. I was like, what year was that?

[D]

The Athens Games. I was the. I was the host of a daytime. Daytime.

[C]

This was less sports TV than. Someone said, hey, it's open mic night. Give me your high five. Give me your best five minutes. This is a great bit of comedy. I love that.

[A]

NBC going to the seller.

[D]

Yeah, no, I was. Here's what I was supposed to do. And then I'll tell you what I did. It was a great. The daytime show, we had a bunch of different sports. We had table tennis and we had badminton and we had horse dancing. What's horse dancing? You know, I don't know.

[A]

Let me, Let me. Let me ask my. My friend who's the expert in Olympic stuff. Hold on, let me text you to get that answer real quick.

[C]

Hold on. Wait, the dressage thing?

[D]

Yes. Thank you. Oh, and I got in trouble because I kept saying, and now horse dancing. And then the horse dancing people said, please stop calling it horse. So anyway, I was supposed to be showing. It was supposed to be. I was supposed to be throwing to a commercial, theoretically, but I was supposed to be doing it by saying. By explaining the difference between a badminton racket, like whether the pros use, and one that, you know, a Kmart racket and shuttlecock. And so I was just supposed to ding, ding, ding, you know, and this one has goose feathers and. Yeah. And then it devolved. And then I started explaining what badminton was like at my house and how many people just kept showing up and it wasn't. And then it got stuck in the tree. And then they start throwing hockey sticks and basketball. It's. All I can tell you is that when it was over, because it was. It was so ridiculous and there were no notes. I was just, you know, barking. When it was over, we throw, finally throw to a commercial. The producer comes down to my desk and he goes like this. And he said, what the fuck was that? It's the kind of Time that you really can't get on national television anymore.

[A]

Like, so you're basically, like, you're telling these stories where you kind of just have an idea, it's in there, you have a take on it, and you just run. You kind of ignored the shot clock. So basically you're like the first podcaster ever, except you were on NBC winning Peabody's during the Olympics. Like, yeah, during the Olympics. So it's like super highbrow shit. But then you go off on badminton, like a tangent like, like on our YouTube show.

[D]

I kind of did. But. But, and, and again, I don't mean to pivot, so obviously. But how different for John and Andy? How different is it yakking on a podcast than typing it for Sports Illustrated or.

[A]

Oh, that's a good question for John or.

[D]

Or calling it on espn. How hamstrung Andy did you feel once you got to. Once you got to ESPN and you couldn't call things the way you wanted to?

[A]

No, I was fine. I loved the fact that I had so many resources that if I was to show someone, they're like, oh, he's improved his drop shot. I'm like, his drop shot is average. His forehand is really good, which makes his drop shot good. Let's talk about Sinner being able to knock your head off both ways, showing that as soon as he sets up, you have to go five feet back. And then all of a sudden he hits a drop shot that second bounces past the service line. That's not a good drop shot. That just means he has a really good forehand still. And then he recognizes. So it was a different thing. Like, I can go on here and rant about things that, you know, people don't care about when they're watching Wimbledon on espn. This is like, welcome to Nerdville, right? This is. This is like, we're going to talk about someone 35 in the world, the same as we talk about someone who's two in the world, right? But I actually didn't feel that hamstrung because there was like a new opportunity and toys to play with. With getting to explain why something happens and not just saying, like, you know, drop shot. I'm like, no, no. But there's so many parts that go into this. And I can, like, slow mo and show and freeze frame it. And then ask the viewers at home, like, what. What are your options here? You're dead here, you're dead here. You got to go backwards. And then all of a sudden you press play and say, and you have to account for the 25ft ahead of you. Like, I loved that. So I didn't actually feel hamstrung. I was worried that I was going to cuss on air. That was what I was worried about, which would have been bad.

[D]

How close did you get?

[C]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

I don't know. Like, I'm curious to hear, because I. One little known thing about Mary Carrillo is one that you're like, you know, there's this prestige in this real sports, in the Olympics. You cuss like a sailor. I'm just going to let everyone know you are. You have a filthy mouth. You have a filthy mouth.

[C]

We called her Bob Saget at one point. This, like, conventional.

[D]

I'll reverse.

[A]

I'll reverse the question to you because you've gotten away with it for four and a half decades. I got away with it for two weeks. So you should be answering this.

[D]

All right, here's. Here's the deal on my. My parents never let us curse as kids. And so I did. I mean, and. And then I didn't let my own kids curse. And, and honestly, I feel. Normally, it's a sign of laziness. Like, you've. There's got to be a better way to express. Like, it's lazy. Come on, you can do better than that. And now my kids are grown, you know, and they've got their own families, and at a certain point you think, ah, what the. You know. Right.

[A]

Yeah, I'm like. I'm like, yeah, I, I definitely.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Lazy. That's our show. And two, I'm like, yeah, the other way kids grow up, I'm like, my kids are fucking 10 and 8. And I'm still like, yeah, so.

[D]

So you're careful around your kids?

[A]

Not really. I'm. I, like, I don't know. My whole thing with kids is like, anyone. You're not allowed to. Like, you haven't done anything in life yet. Like, you can't just take liberties that are earned. But also, like, we kind of earn your bad language. This is turning into a bad badminton rant now where it's about, like, I don't know, like, our kids. I'm. I'm happy not to be precious about anything and be like, the first one in on a conversation that could be weird or difficult. And like, well, no, you just don't get to do that. Like, no problem.

[D]

Right. And. And honestly, I mean, I use it for effect. I mean, I, I'd like, I'd like to.

[A]

It works.

[D]

No, I, Yeah, I mean, I, I use it For I use it. I texted you a little bit during Wimbledon. I use it for effect. I use it because it's funny. I don't use it because I can't think of a better way.

[A]

I actually stole one of yours to open the show. And if someone thought Chuckle Fuck was funny, that was Mary Carrillo's from our Wimbledon text chain. Just so it was fun.

[C]

Did you get Chuckle Fuck on the air?

[A]

I did not say Chuckle Fuck in the air, but what I did was laugh on the air because I got caught reading her text that said.

[D]

All right, let me ask you one more TV question. Did you prefer the booth or the studio?

[A]

I don't know. Brooke was asking me that every night and I don't know. I really don't know. I enjoyed, I kind of enjoyed all of it. And I was like a fire hose of curiosity. I think I instantly felt like I was in this is. I don't, I don't want to be like arrogant, but I felt like I was instantly good at the studio and I had toys to play with and I could, you know, I was happy that I had space because there weren't, you know, seven people on a desk all fighting for seven seconds to say the same thing over and over. I appreciated that, that opportunity, but I love doing matches too. I just, I, I listen to so many. I'm a little more self conscious doing matches than AM studio, if that makes sense.

[C]

Wait, you, you opened the door, so I want to, I want to open it further. You, you mentioned that Mary was texting you.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. So just.

[C]

Yeah, no, but I want to know what you, you have Andy doing his first, you know, two week broadcast and he has objectively, you know, he's good at this, but he's new at this. Tell us more. What are you telling him? What are you pitfalls to avoid? Tips, hacks. I think that's interesting that he leaned on you and clearly valued what you had to say. Tell us a little more about what you're telling him.

[D]

No, it was only, honestly the first couple of days and then I realized after listening to him that, you know, he was hopeless. So the hell with it. I'm not going to make him better. So it was, it was, it was only. I mean, I basically, I guess it was a couple of, a couple of little things. There was an injury and, and it wasn't handled well. And I said, don't. First of all, there's no such thing as a stomach muscle. It's an abdominal muscle. Stomachs don't have muscles. And don't second guess. And I felt like ESPN never paid off. What happened. Like, don't avoid that kind of stuff. And I also said that. And it's something I had said to Darren Cahill when he first started working at espn. And it was a crowded sound, it was wall to wall dialogue. And I said to Darren, pick your spots and whatever you say, make it concise. And don't try to fight for airtime, because if you do it that way, people will listen for you. They'll want to hear what you have to say. Make them listen for it. Make them want to hear what your take is on something. It was just little stuff like that. And there was a lot of marital advice. You know, I told him, you know, my first law of marital advice, you know, don't get emotionally involved. So he appreciated that.

[C]

It's.

[A]

It is funny, though, jw, because you ask and she's kind of poo pooing it, but, like, those little things, like, and it's intimidating. I talked about it on our show. Like, I'm walking into a booth with John and Patrick, who have this brother cadence. They've done matches together forever. I'm like this new guy. And, you know, and so it's like, incredibly helpful, like, to say, hey, listen, you don't have to, like, participate equally. Like, they have their cadence, they have their thing. Like, that's a shortcut. I felt like I had a cheat code at my disposal and, like, lots of cussing, which was endlessly hilarious. So benefit both ways. It was fantastic. It was great.

[D]

It didn't need one bit of my.

[A]

No, that's not true. That's not for you to be able to judge, by the way. That's for me to be able to judge because I needed it. It was valuable. I used it. I was conscious of it. And you were very gracious with sharing it. So you don't poo poo it away. I was thankful for it. I was really thankful for it.

[D]

How much more of it do you want to do?

[A]

I like it. I do. I like it. You know, I want to be really good at it because I've spent so much time bitching about it in the past. So there's no chance that I can bitch about it then go in and be lazy about it. That's the way I. That's the way I feel, you know, and for a long time I was away from tennis, so I was like, I don't watch the players regularly enough to levy a detailed judgment on them, you know, And I didn't want to do it and be lazy about it. Now with this show we cover, you know, I was, when I was in negotiations with espn, I was, you know, they're like, I go, I don't. How are you going to prepare? I go, I don't think I am, because I know who won the challenger in sopot three weeks ago. You know, so, you know, it's. I don't know how much preparation there. There is beyond. I don't know where to look. You know, I don't know when this goes red with this, like. So all of those technical things that is probably like a muscle for you now isn't for me yet at all. But I like it. I like it, and I certainly appreciated that. What ESPN told me as far as, like, having some space to, like, explain, like, my number one thing that I always want to do forever, and maybe it's your version of storytelling, which you're legendary for, is I just simply want to explain why this is really hard. That's it. Like, I just want to tell you, listen, this person's great and they're amazing. The other person who's missing a bunch is. Didn't just forget how to play tennis. They're doing it because that's their only chance to win. It's like fighting a great fighter where you have to go in and try to knock them out, but you're going to leave your chin exposed like that. That's a real. That's a real thing. So I just wanted to tell people why it's. Why it's, like, hard.

[D]

Can I ask you how. At what point in your career and you had a number of tremendous coaches, at what point did you get as smart about the game as you are now?

[A]

Well, to get that, I don't know that I'm smart about it. I think I'm good at explaining it. I don't know that. I don't know my tennis brain is any better than anyone else's. I think I can just get to the point quickly and also understand what, frankly speaking, like, if I'm being honest, and I don't want to give producer Mike and techie Sean too much credit ever. I normally only compliment them behind their backs, but with this show specifically, we have a bunch of people who, you know, have kind of come to our show because we've met them where they're at, right? And it's. They're not tuning into a broadcast, watching tennis. And so Mike consistently, I'll say something that's like tennis lingo and he'll go, no, no, no. But what does that mean for, like, someone in Ohio like me, who didn't start in tennis? And so I think that's been a good training mechanism. Like, unknowingly, you're explaining to the viewer who may not be, like, a total nerd like the rest of us. Right.

[D]

And then you have to realize you can't tell them everything you know so that they could watch the match better. You tell them everything they need to know so they can watch the match better.

[A]

Yeah, I'm still. I'm still. I'm by no means. I'm still figuring it out, but one of the things before you pivot back to the other person again, like, you do like a. You're just like a. Just like a shapeshifter of, Of. Of interview. She can't help herself. We talked about hall of fame speeches, and then you, you know, talked about mine. I want to talk about your process and the way you're thinking about it, because I know it's a very, very intimidating process. I think even someone who. You're not scared to go on in front of 200 million people and talk about a sport and call it horse dancing. Now, when you're going through this, and I've been in the situation where you have 20 or 25 minutes and they want you to tell us every reason why this is important to you and why you love this game in 25 minutes when you've been doing it for, you know, four and a half decades, five decades, is that intimidating to even someone like you? And how have you been thinking about it?

[D]

I've been thinking about it for a long time. It's. It's very nervous making. I mean, the, The. The best part about this for me is that there are so many people to thank, and that, to me is the most. That, That's. That's everything to me. I mean, I. I've just had great fortune and. And, you know, I've been told to make it about eight, maybe nine minutes. No, no, that's. It's. And I'm not going to go Mary Pierce on anything.

[C]

Mary Pierce. The sun literally set on her. Not metaphorically, like, it went dark.

[D]

They had to put lights. Yeah, she's still going. But I love Mary. It was, but it was a long speech, and you told me that you wrote yours the night before. What did you have, 4,000 cocktail napkins you were writing this on? I don't know. I mean, but you had been thinking about a long time. I've been there. We Go.

[A]

That's it. That's it.

[D]

I've been thinking about it a long time and I'm trying to collapse it into something, especially knowing that everyone's waiting for Roger.

[A]

Yeah, but that, I don't know. Like, I'm not one to give you advice on anything, but, like, fuck that. Like, you, you earn. Like, I love Roger. The rating is not going away. If you stay on longer, people are just going to tune in for longer. Like, this is a net win. Like, you need to. I love, you know, I love Roger. We're great friends. And also, like, you earned your spot too. Like, you, you, you should say all the shit you want to say. You've earned that right.

[D]

I will, I will try to again, I don't think I've been working on it, let's put it that way, and trying to, trying to make it cohere and try to make it make sense. And I hope it sounds okay, but it is daunting. It is daunting again because there are so many people. It's, it's. I think you said something when you, when you found out that you got in, you know, you told your family, your friends, your coaches, your Doug Spreen, you said, you know, we're in and you meant it. And that's how I feel. No, that's how I feel. Do you think Doug Spreed will introduce me? Will he be up for that?

[A]

He probably would. Yeah, he would. He probably would.

[D]

I don't know.

[A]

We'll see.

[C]

Gets a lot of mentions on this path. Quick question. If you.

[A]

I just like, if you have a problem with Doug Spreen, it's. You're probably a dick. Like, I don't know. Just, just so we're clear, you know,

[C]

he's in the, the rafter clusters camp of like, time to look in the mirror. If you. Let me ask you adjacent question of that. I was talking, I was actually just going to sound very name droppy. I was talking to Roger about this at Wimbledon a few weeks ago and I said, would you take inventory when you're preparing, you're sort of taking the measure of your career. And he was saying that there's surprising moments. Yeah, you win Wimbledon for the first time. But he said also, you know, it's Murat Safin telling him he really needs to pick himself up and go enter Hamburg. And suddenly that gets him. When you look at your career, as I suspect you've been doing in preparation for this, give us like a couple surprise moments that in retrospect were these hinge Points that you may not have known at the time. I'm always interested by those.

[D]

I think the surprise, I mean, obviously doing other sports, I didn't see that coming. Getting to do real sports. I was, I was working at Wimbledon.

[A]

Institution. Like a total institution.

[C]

You mean, you mean the HBO show and not genuine authentic sports?

[D]

No, I, yeah, I mean real Sports with Brian Gumbel, which was just one of the great glories of my life. It was on for 29 years. I was on for 27 of them. And the, and they gave me a total layup. My first profile was on Charles Barkley, who was still playing. I mean, and he was, I mean, he just. So Charles. And then 15 minutes later, our story was over. That was a surprise. Getting to do long form HBO documentaries was a big bump for me because I love, I've always loved documentaries. My father, my 100 year old father loved documentaries. And he used to, he used to wake me up in the middle of the night. I was a little kid, he'd squeeze my foot and say, hey, Mayor, there's a really good documentary on like, okay. Or, or a great movie that he. The Treasure of Sierra Madre's on. You know, African Queen is like. So I grew up wanting to tell stories for a long time. And then my, my brother, when I was a kid and I was clearly just tennis ball, my brother threw a copy of Jim Bouton's Ball four on my bed and said, read this. And those stories about those Yankees, about those, about what was really going on, that lit me up. That absolutely lit me up. So there were, there were turns getting my first Olympics. Like, why, why do you want me to go? You know, that would be great. Doing dog shows. I love dog. I mean, all those little things where you say yes to and with the attitude, it's like if I suck, they'll tell me, they'll knock those and then they'll tell me to please go away. So there are a lot of pivot points and a lot of it is just, you know, I'll try, you know, I'll try.

[A]

So if it doesn't work, that's a big thing. And it's something I'm like attracted to. I don't think. I'm not attracted to ever feeling totally comfortable like doing something. And I think you, at least from outside looking in, you've mentioned, you know, okay, I have this lane in tennis, I'm good at it, I'm established. You know, I'm calling men's US Open finals. I'm doing all of These things. Yeah, let's go to the Olympics where. I don't know, maybe I'm exposed because I don't watch these sports all the time. And fucking dog shows. Like, how do you call a dog show? Like, I don't. How does that even work? But it seems like you kind of lean in without. Is it. Is it a. Is it like a fuck it gene? Or is it like, I can. Is it a confidence thing or maybe a version? Maybe, maybe. Maybe both.

[D]

I mean, it's mostly curiosity. Like, yeah, I. I do actually want to. I think I could do that. And I think. And I'm really interested in it. And, you know, it's like when you watch when a plumber comes to your house and he's got to, you know, he's got to fix the. Under the sink and you watch him and you're there like, oh, I understand what he's doing now. Oh, this is how that works, you know? Or like when you watch somebody, you know, build something, you're like, oh, okay, so he needs a bunch of tools. And this is the one that does. Like, you under. You end up thinking, okay, I. I don't have that tool, but I think I know how to do it now. You know what I mean? So. And again, sports. Any sport. Any sport I watched. I watch anything. I. Because it's. Athletes are. They're at the prime. They've devoted their entire young lives to something, and all they want to be is great. And. Okay, I may not understand this sport, but I sure. I admire it. I respect them for what they. For what they love, for what they are passionate is about. I want to see what makes them go, you know what? Why do they think this is something to devote their lives to? No, I think more than anything, it's. It's curiosity, right?

[C]

You. Andy, she once told me she. She loves the first early Carrillo lesson, but this is a great. You. You love the throbbing athlete heart. That's how you put it to me.

[D]

Yeah, yeah. The athletic heart. Is that beating like. You guys know what? That's. I don't have to explain that to you. To you for sure. I mean, that is. Nothing beats like the athletic heart.

[A]

I have another. So I was watching. So obviously I knew last night that you were coming on today, and I panic. Texted Mary yesterday, and she was gracious, as she always. Always is. She's going to do another something for another someone after we finish this, this, this podcast. But I was watching the. The final season of the Bear, okay. And they're in the Kitchen. And it's. I won't, I won't spoil anything. But they have a day where everything goes wrong. Everything goes wrong that could possibly go wrong. And there's, like, there's, you know, power dynamics in play. There's humility on display, people trying to lean into humility. There's, you know, the person who you don't expect to save the day makes a winning play. There are all these dynamics which I thought were amazing. It's great television and everything is going wrong. What is your story like? What is the single day that you have been on air where absolutely everything went wrong?

[D]

There was. I called a match, I think it was in Mawa, New Jersey.

[A]

That could be the end of the story. Yeah, I was going to say.

[C]

Say no more. Done. Great having you on.

[A]

We get it.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

We were on this rickety ass, like, metal scaffolding. It was, it was Al Trout, the late, great Al Trout wig in me. I think I'm gonna mention him in my speech because I just adored him. We're calling this match and it's. And though you could see the weather coming in and I mean, it's biblical. Like, you're just waiting for everything. And it was so windy. The play was awful. And it was getting really, really dark. And all of a sudden lightning struck our metal booth. Okay. So I duck under. I mean, I think I'm gonna die. And the players run off the court and the chair umpire did a swan dive off the chair. Like, everyone is, is. And so we're going away and our producer is saying to Al, you have to finish the show. And I'm there, like, bite me. You have to get us off the air. And. And I am trying to make my way. I'm like blowing him off. And not for the first time I've blown off a producer. And Al has to end up running. He's absolutely soaked. And he has to go into the truck and finish saying, well, we're having some weather, we're trying hard not to die. And so long from Mahwa, New Jersey. And that was bad. But I mean, other bad stuff happens. Just you have a four minute window for the US Opened final. And it, you know, a women's match. I did a women's match where that went 58 minutes like. And now all you've got is Phil, Phil soy filler and fluffer nutter and, you know, nonsense. I was doing a. I'm sure you remember the match where Medvedev Djokovic. Here's Djokovic trying to get the calendar Man. And not that this was a disaster, but it was. It just shows you how, how, how weirdly my mind works. It's when you want your, your, your co host, your, you know, the guy sitting next to him in the chair or the woman to engage. You're like, help me out here. Like, this is, you know, it's important that we have some kind of. So on a changeover. Medvedev is scarfing down a banana and we're, we're on him. You know, we're. And normally, you know, you don't have to say much when something like that has happened. The matches telling itself. But it occurs some for some delirious reason. I said to, I said, interestingly enough, as he's eating interestingly enough, bananas and human beings have share 60% of the same DNA. And I think Jim should say so. Like, isn't that interesting? He gave me the fishiest goddamn look like, if you think I'm gonna go. So I said, no, that's true. The stuff you stay, the stuff you regret. There's. I've got 45 years of regret.

[A]

I would have instantly gone, well, research department's probably having a little bit of a different day than they thought they would do that, right?

[D]

It happens to be true. By the way.

[A]

Is that, Is that real or is

[D]

that just my hand to God? Look it up, look it up.

[A]

Makes me feel like less special.

[D]

Get on the blower right now.

[C]

Exactly.

[A]

I do want to spend like 10 seconds and then we'll, we'll let you go because I know you have a day that you fit us into. But we've, we've mentioned Roger a couple times. Talk about covering him. You're going into the hall of Fame with, with Federer. Talk about covering him. And I'm going to preface this with. So my mom was always like, super easily offended by anyone doing commentary on me, right? Like when, when I was at home. And she'd be like, ah, Mary Carrillo said something today and she said, you. I go. And then I'd let her do a rant and then I'd go, mom. And she'd go, yeah. I said, was it true? And she'd go, well, like, outclassed by Federer again. And she'd be like, how did she say that? I'm like, most fucking true thing I've ever heard in my life. Like, what are we talking about here? Like, we're losing credibility by the minute. That's an aside. I just was with her yesterday. I was thinking it was hilarious. But talk about Roger going in with him. Like, probably not something that you would have imagined while you were covering him. The stars align and, you know, here

[D]

we are, I mean, trying to describe what.

[C]

What.

[D]

Who he is and what he can do on the court. John will jump in here. It's. It's. You run out of words to describe not only what he does and how he does it, but how he makes you feel. Like in your. In your acceptance speech, you talked about, you know, pretending you were, you know, winning Wimbledon. Didn't you want to play like Roger? I mean, I know you had other idols. You had. You had Andre and others, but God damn, I don't know of any tennis player who can grow up not wanting to look like that and play like that and act like that.

[A]

To your point, it was. It was. So far, you asked a question, and I want to let you go off on that. But, like, didn't you want to? Well, sure, but it wasn't even relatable. Like, that's the. That's the problem. Like, I would look at him. I would look at, like, my. My hero of all heroes is Jim Courier. Because, like, I got it. I'm like, oh, okay, you took this piece of shit backhand and you were this effective for this long. It's like, I can relate to that. Roger. I. I didn't even ever think about applying things that he did because it was. It was so far past the pale of.

[C]

Of.

[A]

Of reality. And, I mean, I was across the Netflix.

[D]

I mean, yes, you were, but in your dreams, isn't that.

[A]

Oh, yeah, that'd be great.

[D]

Isn't that what you wanted to. To look like? I mean, you know, and look, Rafa. I have nothing but respect for Rafa, but his game, by comparison, was so effortful, which is fine. And Novak's is very taut looking, which is also fine. But trying to describe Roger, more often than not, I just let it play. John, you've had to write countless articles about Roger. Wasn't it hard to put words together to describe what he did on a court?

[C]

You do. All right. We're going to do music. He's a virtuoso.

[D]

Exactly.

[C]

Oh, we did music. All right. Let's do art. He's a genius. He's making that. We did art. I like what you said, too, about not just look like when he plays, but acts like.

[D]

Yes.

[C]

I don't know if I've ever seen an athlete who has, first of all, whose playing style so mirrors their personality, but also, I don't think I've ever seen a star athlete who has changed so little. You talk to him in his mid-40s and you thoroughly recognize the kid in his early 20s. And transformation is like the essence of every screenplay and book and piece of art. And he has been so consistent in who he is. But we're talking about you.

[D]

Wait, wait. Can I just. Just to answer a little bit more about Roger. One of the very first times I got to do a one on one interview with Roger, he was a kid, you know, but he was already Roger. And I said to him, and you know how Roger is. He's, you know, he's, he's in those ways. He's very normal. I said to him, do you know how beautiful your game is? And he said, yes. And he kind of giggled. And then I said, I said, do you try to make it beautiful? And he said, yes. It was so lovely. It was so him.

[A]

He has, like an uncanny ability because people like, you're like, oh, Roger's, you know, fun. He's easy. If he came in here and he was a group full of six and we're in our kitchen, you'd like him. He'd blend in. Like, he would. It wouldn't be this, like, weird divide. And they go, oh, so he doesn't, like, he doesn't know. I go, no, he knows exactly what he is. He knows exactly how important to the game. He's not a dick about it. That's it. Like, he knows. It's not as if he's trying to, like, there's no false modesty. It's like, you were that good. He's like, yeah, I was really good. Like, there's no, there's no false modesty. But he, it's, it's so honest. But without him trying to convince you of the thing. Like, he would never say what you said first. First. But he's not going to deny it for the sake of denying it, I think.

[D]

Exactly right. Gosh, that's when I knew I was really going to enjoy this guy's. This guy's life. Yes.

[A]

Yeah. Well, I can't wait to be there. And I am. I'm telling you, I love Roger. We're buddies. And I know that you've given away tickets and you don't believe that people are coming for you. I am coming 50% for you, Mary Carrillo.

[C]

That's a great way to look at it.

[A]

I am coming.

[D]

I would, I'll take it.

[A]

I would be coming to watch your speech. If Roger wasn't even in America at that point. Like, I would come to support You, I would travel to the ends of the earth to hear, to hear you and watch you be inducted. I'll tell you one thing that that served me well and you don't again, you don't need my advice. We've mentioned the speeches. It became very easy for me to write a speech when I would. The way I looked at it was, okay, I'm going to give the eight year old version of myself an update. And what I saw that and what I did and then from then on and I go, I wasn't going to tell you about 5 all 30 all like no one gives a shit. Like it was. I literally, I just said, I'm going to write an Update to the 8 year old version of myself and introduce the characters that he might not know yet.

[D]

That's what made it so warm and so loving. I'm, I told you, I'm stealing your whole speech.

[A]

No, that would be a disappointment to all people. Just, just lack of education flying everywhere between you and me and it's just, it would just be horrible, all this modesty.

[C]

I'm just going to be really disappointed if you stick to the time limit.

[A]

Don't know. No, no, I'm going to, I'll be the first person, the first person who was ever awkwardly, like pressured into an

[C]

encore, holding up their lighters.

[A]

Mary, we love you. Thank you for sharing your time with us. Come back anytime you want to go on a rant about anything and make badminton into a parenting conversation.

[D]

I love you right back.

[A]

We, we appreciate you and can't wait to wrap my arms right around you on your day. Federer, it's your day in Newport. Hopefully we'll see you sooner than that. But thanks for coming on our show.

[D]

We appreciate you anytime, kids.

[A]

All right, jw, our friend Maricarillo doesn't disappoint, right?

[C]

She comes to play, you get a snippet. I don't know if our international audience, if some of them haven't been listening to her work the way we have, but now they got a taste and this is thoroughly deserving in Newport and tennis treasure and American treasure. And that was a fun out.

[A]

Yeah, it was, it was important to me and I've mentioned it before that like obviously Fed is Fed mania is going to happen in Newport. You know, you see the ticket sales and listen, Mary's in on the joke. She understands all of the Fed going in things. You know, I think you'd be hard pressed. You heard her talk about him. I doesn't feel like she's harboring any Animosity from having to share anything with, with Roger, obviously a fan of his. And for me, you think about like figures that have been important in the game. It's so important that she has her moment in Newport. She's been that important to the game. Not, you know, you mentioned she's helped you. Always available. I've used her as a reference, as a mentor as I'm trying to figure out how not to suck on tv, you know. So it is important. I hope people digest her story. You know, she was the woman voice of tennis for me when I was, when I was tuning in. I probably took it for granted at the time. But like I think her legend only grows with, with time, you know. And then, you know, for me I'm going, she went outside of tennis and did a bunch of stuff too. Like it, it is so important. I think she is so important. And you know, I'm, I'm happy she's getting her moment. And her only taking eight or nine minutes to give that speech. Ignore it. Make them play you off. Oh no. She went 22 minutes. Does that mean that people are going to have to be in front of their TVs longer and we'll make more money because they're waiting? Yes, that's, it's, there's no downside. Am I wrong on this JW Sunday morning?

[C]

No. And I think sort of a broader take on this. Yeah, exactly. There's not going to be an Academy Awards gong. And we're onto the commercial break. She should talk as long as she wants. It'll be great. And also I'm happy the tennis. I'm happy she was voted in. I'm happy she was on the ballot. Tennis is filled with a lot of people who contribute a lot in addition to the multiple slam winners and the slam winners and the people who, you know, are holding up trophies. So I glad that her contributions are being recognized the way they are.

[A]

Yeah. And also as part of me feels like my cup is full with her getting in because of journalism that she represents and you would obviously have a, maybe a better opinion on this. But as we kind of get into like our show, like there's a lot of stuff that you can frame into a minute and it's clickable and it's fun and it's fluffy and then. But we're very serious in the long form show. But as media changes and a lot of it is just for click sake and it's sensationalized journalism, like having someone who actually tells responsible stories and is kind of that like, she's kind of like the connector from like new media to like old school journalism. And when it was really, I don't want to be dismissed, but like, really, really, really a craft. Not because you were passionate about it, because that's the way it had to be.

[C]

Right. Do you follow her on Instagram or Twitter? No, you don't? Why? Because she doesn't have to do that. And I've seen so many people sort of diminish themselves with, you know, just sort of nonsense or they get in some Twitter beef or they hold their phone vertically and they do a, you know, I mean, people's careers have been consumed and subsumed by Instagram. She's kept her dignity while doing this the right way.

[A]

Yeah, she's the best. This is, this is, this is a good week of shows. I'll just tell you, Mary Carrillo on this week's Q and Andy. We have, we have maybe, maybe the. I don't want to say, and I'm not being hyperbolic, maybe the funniest person that I know personally on our show on Thursday, Jake Johnson. Most people would know from New Girl. I listen. If you don't listen to the podcast, we're here to help. You're missing out. It is. The premise is hilarious. You will die laughing at all of the episodes. Has new. You know, NBC recently approved a show called Sunset PI, but I did a movie with him. I know that sounds weird, but it's called the Dink. It's about a former tennis player's reckoning with having to become a pickleball player. It's. He's hilarious. We shot this, we shot it last week when he was on his press junket. We'll release it this Thursday. He is on fire. I mean, he is instantly funny all the time. It's. Have you listened to it, Mike?

[B]

Yeah, it's absolutely hysterical. I mean, even, even just being there. Like, I, I think between today's episode and this Thursday's episode, my face will not be recover from laughing and smiling because it's two of the funniest people.

[A]

It felt funny when we were doing it, but Mike always has a good. Some stuff, you know, feels funny and it's kind of like not. And then some stuff is like, oh, God, that was actually really fun. Start to finish. This is like a Tyson fight. Like, he walks in and just starts throwing punches. So please. It's not super tennis centric, but it has kind of the overnotes. He tells some hilarious stories. So his tennis coach and Gilbert's kind of found this lane, Brad Gilbert's kind of found that he worked with Zendaya when she was doing the tennis movie. He's, he like, he coached Jake Johnson in tennis to try to get kind of some, you know, racket fluency before the dink. And so he tells some hilarious stories of like BG being bg, but like from someone who's not. Like, we love BG because we're tennis people and you know, he's a character and it's hilarious and he has this, you know, this, this career. But then, but having like an outsider view of their impressions of BG is hilarious. So for nothing else, listen to that. But that's this Thursday.

[B]

Mike, is this Thursday? Yes, sir.

[D]

All right.

[A]

And then the day after that, watch the dink on Apple self serving promo. Jw, anything else you got for us?

[C]

All good, good, Good week. We're back. We're back on us hardcore North American hardcore tennis. And we'll have some results to talk about next week.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And to our listeners, I apologize for not watching tennis this week. It'll never happen again. For producer Mike Techie Sean, jw, thank you for watching served and we will be here for you on Thursday with Jake Johnson. And we'll always be here for you. Next week, next Tuesday, we got another show for you. We'll see you. I have my dream job, but even dream jobs have not so dreamy parts. That's where ServiceNow's AI specialists come in. They don't just tell you what to do about your busy work, they actually do it. That way your team can focus on what matters. To learn how to put AI to work for people, visit ServiceNow.com.