← Served with Andy Roddick
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- [00:01]
A
Support for the show comes from Nutrafol, the number one dermatologist recommended hair growth supplement brand. One and a half million people have tried Nutrafol, including me. I've tried it before myself. It's been great. For a limited time, Nutrafol is offering our listeners $10 off your first month subscription and free shipping. When you go to nutrafol.com and enter the promo code served that's spelled N u t r a f o l.com promo code served nutrafold.com promo code serve support for the show comes from Mercury, the banking product that helps entrepreneurs do more with their money. Mercury knows that to an entrepreneur, every financial move means more. A credit card on day one means creating an ad campaign on day two. And a business loan means loading up an inventory for Black Friday. That's why Mercury offers banking that does more all in one place. So that doing just about anything with your money feels effortless. Visit mercury.com to learn more. Mercury Mercury is a financial technology company, not a bank. Banking services provided through Choice Financial Group column NA and Evolve bank and Trust members fdic. Hey, everyone. Welcome to Served. We got the crew back. Not on vacation anymore. JW all over the place with 60 Minutes techie Sean. That guy never left my side. The rest of you, he's committed. The rest of you, we're not in the garage anymore.
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B
No. Smells a little bit better in here.
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A
Oh, my God. It's a little less musty.
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B
Yeah. And there's no, like, whirl. Sean's stuck. There's no whirl of like a plunge pool.
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A
Yeah. We should have. You know what? We had a miss, though. Cause we moved out of the gym at my house and into like a like proper space. How? We used to have to, like. They would set it up. They'd have like sound things and foam and I don't know what it. Yeah, like not spray foam, but actual like. Yeah, it's not weird.
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C
Like foam boards.
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A
Yeah. And they would shrink it in and then before every episode, they would kind of open it up.
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B
I thought you say they. It was just. Sean.
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A
Sorry, Sean.
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B
I didn't do anything.
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A
We should have actually documented that. Now we have all the space in the world. I don't know what to do with my legs.
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C
Look at that. A lot of room for activities. I have to.
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A
I know there's some shot. I saw it earlier. Like that one. We have different shots.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Where now I think I have to wear shoes because bare feet are gross.
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B
Yeah. That is true. I normally didn't wear Pants.
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A
Yeah. Ever. Ever. We. We. Whoa, man.
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C
I. I got to come to Charlotte sometime.
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A
We took books. It's pretty relaxed over here. Jw. All right, let's get to a bit of a racket rundown quickly. There's a lot to talk about. Obviously, injuries are taking hold on on Tours and 16 Slam. Lot of investment going on all over the place in tennis. We'll let Mike put his tinfoil hat on.
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B
There's a lot going on.
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A
Finally happened. It's finally happening for you.
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B
I've been wanting to talk about this for months.
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A
For months. Literally months. Rocking a slides into 10th place on the on the way to tour finals. Beat Alexandrova. I look Alexandrova. Props. Top 10.
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B
Sneaky, great season.
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A
Top 10.
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C
Sneaky good. Sneaky good.
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A
She's kind of been one of those really, really good players that's kind of been between 15, I don't know, 35 for a long time, but top 10, that's. That's the number that everyone wants to get to.
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C
Right?
- [03:27]
A
That's one of the stepping stones. That's a big deal. So congrats to her. Congrats to Rybakina. No surprise she wins, you know, something like 90% of her first serve points when she is in full flight. I think she has the best serve in the world. I don't know that it's that close. Maybe arena when she's really serving well. But Rabakina can hit all four spots on the court. Do side add side off of the same toss over and over. I think she's going to have a massive year next year. I think this year was nuts for many reasons and personal and trying to get coaches and it was feels like it was just a like year of distraction. Right when she's flying. I mean, she's been playing pretty well, played well going into the US Open. I had her going to the final there. So maybe I'm just overly impressed on the eye test with Rybakina and what I see from her, but I'm buying going into 2026.
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C
JW yeah, we'll talk about six kings in a moment. If you were going to do six queens in the WTA, I think she makes that list. And I think you're right. These were sort of a couple of years that I think maybe she looks back and X years from now she wished she hadn't sort of squandered these. I mean, she's underperformed the last two years. But I do think you're right. That's a stock to buy. And this is a player who is a few points away from being a two time major winner kind of notionally in the prime of her career right now. And I think you're right, I think she's top. Is she top 10 now?
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A
She's right there on the edge. I think she might be just outside of it, but she is playing this week so therefore has a shot. The other thing about Rybakina, she draws Sabalenka. Sabalenka is going oh shit. Like there's not a lot of players that aren't in those first two or three, you know, like the Cocos and Igas and Sabalenka where all of a sudden you take someone who isn't in that kind of top three stronghold, insert them into that and you go, I don't know, it's coin flip, right? And Rybakina is one of those, one of those players that no one wants to see. She can beat Sabalenka, she can beat iga, she beats all the top players. It's just a matter of consistency and I'm not sure how you find that consistency when you know the Life Mirror is pretty inconsistent and flashing inconsistency all the time. So all this to say Rabakina is such a good player fighting for that last spot to get into World Tour Finals or whatever they call it, what is it called?
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B
The WTA Finals.
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A
In WTA Finals normally they come up with some sort of really unnecessary title. That's great.
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B
What I've been calling it.
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C
Perfect.
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A
That means so. So the only thing I know now for sure is that it's not called WTA Finals.
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C
No. Per every press release you have to say spons by pif In Riyadh.
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B
Yeah, in Riyadh.
- [06:15]
C
Yeah. Maybe get to that.
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B
So seven, seven players have qualified. So there's one spot open.
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A
Andrea is currently in the eighth spot. Not playing next week. Rbakina is playing in Tokyo next week.
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B
Yeah. If Robakina makes the semifinals, she. She's in.
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A
That's a weird one for Andrea. I wonder if like I almost want to take a panic wild card or something.
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B
You think?
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A
I don't know. I mean honestly. And with Andrea, she was fantastic earlier this year. We would have been surprised that. That you didn't just put her in.
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B
Yeah, right.
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A
She was circling a 4, 5, 6 in the world most of the year. Didn't have a great second half of the year. Now obviously this is new, right? She's young, she's played great and JW had her in a couple of Grand Slam finals already. I think.
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C
To preempt. It's almost like the season's really long and players can't sustain it, and physically and emotionally, they start to tail off. But, yeah, Andrevis had a much different second half than first half.
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A
Yeah, we'll get into this and I'll tell you my own experiences with going out and trying to kind of add points to the board after post US Open, pre Australian Open. It's just a weird time of the year. FAA still looks great. He is putting a run together this guy's indoor record with. He's won Basel a bunch. He's like, you take out the elements and also like the US Open is a pretty muted court now with that new roof. There's not a lot of wind that gets in there. It's a pretty true bounce. You know, the heat fluctuates and the density of the air fluctuates on how the ball travels. But there's not a whole lot of it went from the windiest court, maybe on earth. Like the subtle wind that was always blowing 15 one way or the other. And you used to. They used to have the flags up top, right? And when there was no roof and the flag would be blowing one direction and by the time the wind circled down, it was blowing the opposite of which way the flag was blowing.
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B
It's crazy.
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A
So it was great because you would play someone who had never played out there before, and you would. You'd walk behind them, you would normally get introduced second if they had never played out there. So you walk behind them, you see them clock the flag, which is. Which is what you're supposed to do, right? That you'd see them look at it clock the wind direction, and you're going, they're screwed.
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B
Because they're completely reading.
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A
It'll be opposite by the time it gets down. There's none of that at the US Open now. It is a sweat box with not a lot of wind to be had inside of stadium court. Obviously, the. The other courts are still wide open. But all that to say when there's not wind and it's a predictable bounce and it's that kind of loud noise, feedback. FAA is great.
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B
Yeah, he's 76 wins indoor since 2020 and six indoor title.
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A
God, how many matches has he won overall? I mean, that's got to be 77 match wins since 2026. That is massive.
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B
Indoor Harcourt wins.
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C
How many of his titles have been indoors?
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B
It says sixth. This was his sixth out of.
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A
I don't know how many he's one total indoor title. Maybe we'll look that up. Six of eight. Yes. I mean, he's doing a lot of lifting, career lifting on the indoors. Now you just got to get a slam indoors. I don't know, maybe the Saudis. Here they come. Lahechka makes the finals. Just rock solid. You know, he's just a really, really good player. He's there most weeks. How about Mehdi? Mehdi making a late run here, putting some points back on the board. Kind of slid to 20 in the world post US Open. 20ish. Now back up to 14, I believe after Almaty. 21 titles, 21 different.
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B
I love that.
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C
That's the best stat in tennis. Best stat in tennis.
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B
Yeah. It began in Sydney. 2018.
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A
Weirdest stat in tennis comes through again. And I asked us to look up and, you know, our research department doesn't really exist, so we're just googling stuff. But there's not that many players in history, I'd guess 40ish, maybe give or take three, four on each side, who have won 20 titles. Like, you talk about the guys who have won 20 titles and you're talking about some pretty heady company for, for Mehdi. And now his, his, his title count can legally drink in this country. That's great.
- [10:13]
C
Yeah, that's, that's a big number. I mean, this, this is. Don't we all agree, too? I mean, I think tennis is better off when this guy's playing, playing at the level he's capable of. Not a great season headed into now. I don't know if you saw how emotional he got after that. You say, hey, he's playing some October event in Kazakhstan. This is a major champion. He's been number one. He's been to other major finals, and yet he's leaking tears in October in Kazakhstan. But I think he knows that this has not been a great couple of years for him. He knows that he's not playing up to his ability. It's great to see him back. I mean, he's still outside the top 10, which tells you something about his, you know, his, his decline lately. But I think this guy still has a lot of good tennis left in him. And that was, that was a nice result to see.
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A
Yeah, I actually talked with Mehdi. I asked him if I could talk about this when we were on the phone, and he said, yeah, I don't, I don't really care about that or anything really. But he called me, he just said, you know, what do you, what do you think? And I think he was going through some feelings after the US Open. We talked for probably 45 minutes. I probably talked too much. I'm a fan of his game. I'm a fan of his career. I'm a fan of what he's done. I'm entertained by his petulance. I won't always defend it as the absolute right thing to do, but if someone raises their hand and says, I was wrong pretty quickly afterwards, I normally am a little softer on the stance, as long as it's not hurting anyone else. And he just does it. And he's clever and funny, but it's crazy to think, like, someone who's been number one in the world has now won 21 titles. At that point, 20. It's the greatest thing about tennis. You're still searching. And he said, listen, if I had bad results, you know, three, four years ago coupled, I kind of always knew it would turn around. He goes, right now, I don't know.
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B
Wow.
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A
You know, and that's, that's, that's.
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B
It's.
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A
It's funny. You can't lie to tennis based on passion, accomplishment.
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C
Right?
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A
Like, you kind of have to restart over and over, like. And that's the. It's the greatest thing ever. It's not like you can ride an Oscar win for roles, you know, five years later. Yeah, you just can't do it, you know? But so props to Medi. He's really turned his year round. Played well in Shanghai, lost in the semis. I'm sure he's wanting that one back and saying, you know, maybe I could have. Could have won that tournament with the old interrupt, the old cousin, cousin battle in the final there. But props to him, like, he needed a strong finish to this year, maybe as much or more than anyone else on earth, just based on wanting to be top 16. The last thing he wants to be doing is playing one of the top guys in the third round of Grand Slams. No, thank you. That sounds like it's terrible. Go ahead, jw.
- [12:50]
C
Do we talk about this enough? I mean, now that we went here, I think this is a real sort of quirk asset virtue of tennis that Coco wins a major, and eight weeks later, she's fired her coaching staff, and no one is quite sure where she is, and there are all these existential concerns. The flip side is I remember talking about Felix this summer. I did a Canadian interview, and they sort of said, is this guy done? Is this guy cooked? Are we ever going to see Felix again? He was supposed to be the guy. And what happened to him and he plays Rafa, you know, in Roland Garros, and goes five sets and now the guy's struggling to win matches and here we are and he's winning titles. I think tennis's ability, I mean, both, you know, it's easy to fall off the merry go round too, but tennis's ability to sort of restart things and rewrite things and really compress them out of time, they're no, like, oh, the Sixers are in rebuild mode for this season. In a few weeks you go from barely winning matches to winning tournaments. The flip side is you can also win a major and then suddenly struggle with your confidence. But tennis really compresses this. And I think from a fan's perspective, and certainly from a player's perspective, that's really a virtue of the sport.
- [13:55]
A
Yeah, it's weird too. It's a localized hype machine, right? Like faa, he was supposed to be the guy. Like, what does that mean? Does that mean he's going to win majors? Does that mean he's going to be a top 10 guy? Does that mean, like, what does the guy mean? And also, if someone's young and becomes good when they're young, irrespective of the general skill set, shot tolerance, footwork, holes in their game, whatever, if they're young and have some early success wherever they're from, they're going to go, this is the guy or gal, right? Now, if FAA was 14 and you say that's a top 10 player, everyone's like, man, that's amazing. And then he does it and fades for a year and a half where he's just not playing quite as well. Then it's like, stick a fork in him, right? It's like, well, I mean, he's still 25.
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B
He's 25 years old.
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A
Yeah. Like. And what is, what, what is he? He's. He's a guy that is. Works his ass off, is an entirely responsible citizen, is great for the game, has no. Does he have the hands and does he have the feel or speed of like an alcarazz or a sinner? No. And that's kind. And then from there, is it. Well, you know, I don't know. We'll be entertained when he's in front of us. That's, in my opinion, that's lazy, right? There's alcaraz, there's sinner, there's the rest. He is part of the rest. And he can upset anyone in the world like that. That's it. And when he gets indoors, he becomes a really good player, maybe top 6, 7, 8 in the world as soon as he steps onto an indoor court. I don't think that's hyperbolic. But to say, like, this guy's finished. Okay, tell me why. Tell me why. He's had some injuries. That affects fitness, that affects confidence. Now let's let him get back to health. Let's let. Let's see what happens, right? Let's see if he can make a run at the end of the year again. You know, I remember a couple of years ago when he ripped off Basel in Vienna and, you know, he's just having an absolute run. And they're like, well, does that mean he's gonna be two or three in the world? I go, it's indoors versus not. Let's have like an actual detailed conversation and like, talk through nuance, right? And that's just not something we do. And also other people capture our attention in this sport. JW, it's like, okay, FAA's in the semis of Wimbledon a couple years ago. He has our attention. Then all of a sudden we look, you know, Alcaraz breaks through and sinner becomes dominant. He has our attention. And then for most tennis fans, they look up and they see a 30 next to FAA's ranking. They go, what happened? Like, there's a whole story there. It happens every week. It doesn't just happen once every 18 months. Is that.
- [16:31]
C
Am I wrong? All this is in the. Yeah, no. And all this is in the face of Rolling Point. The casual fan looks and they see numbers and they see, wait a second, this guy was in the top 10, and now there's a three and a zero next to his name. What the heck happened? But my point is just this sport makes it really easy for you to. Don't get too discouraged, tennis players, because a little bit of a hot streak and suddenly what's. Felix now is like 12, I think, right?
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A
Yeah, just a little.
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C
Yeah. So you.
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A
Semi of a Grand Slam will do it.
- [16:59]
C
I was going to say exactly in the span of eight weeks, you have your ranking and suddenly you're going into the next major as a top 16 seed, and your whole sort of vista has completely changed. All this is to say, don't. No, not too high or not too low in this sport if you're a fan or if you're a player.
- [17:16]
B
And he's only 330 points back from me for the last spot in the ATP Finals. You know, I mean, there's three guys kind of on the bubble and there's some big points to be asked are still three weeks.
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C
Yep.
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A
There's some big points. There's some five hundreds. There's obviously bear C masters 1000. This is. It's open season for that last spot, which is. Which is fun.
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C
Right?
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A
I don't know that it's going to switch on a 250 which we'll get to in a second. Like Caspar rude wins at 250. I don't know that it has that much of a dent. You have to make a move in the 500s. The 1000s, 250s do not dictate who's in World Tour finals. And the only reason I'm saying this with a hint of aggression in my voice is because it actually matters for the schedule and we're going to get to that. Casper Rude played great. I mean beating Umbert 2 and 3 on an indoor court, that's a. That's a beating. And props to Umbert because he's always good indoors. Similar to faa. Like you get him indoors and he becomes, you know, whatever his ranking is, you can cut it in half based on earth. But Casper Rude, like there again to the point where it's kind of weird that he's not directly in right now World Tour Finals because he's been such a staple there. I don't know. Jw, what do you think about old Casper? Do you think that he would now and obviously hypotheticals. This is. This is stupid because it's not a real conversation, but just it's kind of fun. Would Caspar Rude give up a World Tour final spot to win his first Masters 1000 this year? Which one would he have rather had going into the year?
- [18:42]
C
Yeah, I'd say so. I think you'd rather have a thousand.
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A
I think so. Like looking back, I made it four times or I made it five times. Yeah. I don't know.
- [18:51]
C
Right. I mean, you know, he's. I don't think that's true for every player, by the way. But you know, he's. He's been to that. He's been to the year end event, he's been to major finals. I think he knows that this is someone. I have such a high. I got a lot of time for Casper Ridge. You always have good conversations with him. He gets it. He knows that there's this chatter that he's sort of the king of the 250s and the 500. Yeah, I think he would take that thousand. But it's nice to see him playing well. Nice to see him winning in Scandinavia and I think we're Sort of. At some point we'll spin ahead to 20, 26 and talk about players to watch. And I think he's still got a lot of good tennis in him, same way Medvedev and Felix does.
- [19:29]
A
I'll tell you this, and this is going to. I'm. I'll get. I'll get shit for this. But here we are. I think pretty much every year after I had made World Tour Finals, a couple of times you say, do you want to participate in World Tour Finals or do you want to win a Masters 1000 event? My answer would have been, I want to win a Masters 1000 event.
- [19:50]
B
Interesting. Why?
- [19:52]
A
Yeah, because you remember those. No one can sit here. Like, people watch served all day. I wasn't great. End of the year wasn't my thing. Like, I wasn't. I had a really hard time. And this is from someone. Like, I showed up every day and I worked and like, I take a lot of pride in that. It's the hardest thing for me to do is play that, like, this stretch of the season because you put so much into finishing at the US Open, so much in that run up Wimbledon through the US Open, and then you automatically start thinking about Australia. So I'm just saying no one here in this room can tell me what I did at a Master at a World Tour Finals, except the year where I made semis to finish number one in the world. That's it. That's it. But won Miami twice. That has some gravity. Win Canada. That has some gravity. You know, the, the, the other. The Masters 1000. You can tell me. Five years from now, we're not going to remember whether Casper qualified this year. It's going to be that or one of the other years. But we're going to be able to say he won a master's 1000.
- [20:44]
B
What do you think is part of the point, though? They're trying to change that narrative, you know, by giving it branding and race.
- [20:50]
A
To turn around forever.
- [20:51]
B
What do I say? Like, do you think there's no.
- [20:54]
A
I think it's great.
- [20:55]
B
Elevated.
- [20:55]
A
World Tour Finals is extremely prestigious, right? You are the best of the best. It's like Top Gun, right? You're the best of the best. And we're going to try to figure it out and I don't know, like, the grand scheme of things, I think it's like a, you know, icing on the cake for the season and I think it's, you know, a source of pride for players also. It's like mid November and we've been watching for 10 months, you know, it's.
- [21:23]
B
Almost like a little too late.
- [21:24]
A
It's like, how are we supposed to pay attention to like US Open has the attention of Earth and it's like we go into a million of events afterwards and it's like this marketing thing. Like it's hard to market something that never takes a break. There's no preseason. Like it's hard to market something that never takes a break.
- [21:44]
B
Yeah.
- [21:45]
A
You know, so it doesn't mean it's not a fantastic event. I'm just telling you my personal preference. You know, the last I qualified for basically a decade. You take away those five and give me five more masters. 1000s. Yep. Thank you.
- [21:59]
B
Yeah.
- [21:59]
A
And that's just me. Maybe it's not everyone else.
- [22:01]
C
Don't you think some of this. Don't you think some of this might be the Slams have become these four tent poles, right. And here you have an event that's a different format. It's round robin, it's played indoors. So it's not even a surface, it's not even replicable for a major. I also think this event, you're right. Some of the play, you know, look at Nadal's record. I mean, players are kind of dragging. Everyone knows it. Surprise winners have not tended to capitalize on that. It doesn't have great predictive value. Gregor Dimitrov. And it doesn't really have any predictive value for the next year. Yeah, I think you're right. I think most players would rather go.
- [22:37]
A
Win Toronto one year than participate. Listen, I never. I would have loved to have won World Tour finals. I didn't, didn't even come close. Didn't even play in a final. I don't even think I played in the final. So it wasn't, I wasn't good there. So that my bias is going to be obvious in this argument. I'm just saying if I. If you could have given me take a Rome title instead of participating. Yep, absolutely. Win Indian Wells once.
- [23:04]
B
Yep, absolutely.
- [23:05]
A
Absolutely. You know, so anyways, the race towards the end of the year, that's the entire marketing is like we're sitting here talking about. I'm very, very interested in who gets the last spot.
- [23:13]
B
Yeah.
- [23:14]
A
It creates a mechanism where you're like making the cut in golf, right? Where you're watching someone try to make the cut and have a five footer to move on. Like, that's great. That's great drama. That's great marketing. That's what the entire thing is. You know, we're talking less about, you know, third, fourth people who are actually qualified, we're like, ha, flip the page. Yeah, let's get to that eighth spot. You know, I think that's great. I think it gives us something to talk about. Support for the show comes from Nutrafol. Nothing beats the ego boost that comes with a good hair day. So if you want a whole body approach to tackling hair issues like shedding or thinning, give Nutrafol a try. Nutrafol is the number one dermatologist recommended hair growth supplement brand trusted by over one and a half million people, including me. I've tried Nutrafol before myself and it's been great. In just three to six months, you can go from a hat guy to a hair guy with visibly thicker, fuller hair and improved scalp coverage. Nutrafol Men is clinically tested to improve hair growth and quality. So hats off to great hair. For a limited time, Nutrafol is offering our listeners $10 off your first month subscription and free shipping when you go to nutrafol.com men and enter the promo code served. Find out why Nutrafol is the leading hair growth supplement brand on the market@nutrafol.com spelled n u t r a f o l.com men promo code served that's nutrafol.com men promo code served. Support for the show comes from Mercury, the banking product that helps entrepreneurs do more with their money. For entrepreneurs, your banking transaction history is like a scrapbook of important moments in your company's history. That deposit isn't just a deposit. It's the first batch of seed capital. Sure, business is business, but to entrepreneurs, it's also personal. Mercury is the banking product made by entrepreneurs for entrepreneurs. It's meticulously designed with your needs in mind to make managing your business's money effortlessly simple and and streamlined. Here at Served, Mercury has been a game changer when it comes to organizing our invoices, tracking our billing, and most importantly, being sure we take care of the people that make this show possible. With on time payroll, banking cards, spend management, invoicing and more are all in one place. With Mercury ready to see what powerful banking can do for your business. Visit mercury.com to apply in minutes. Mercury is a financial technology company, not a phone. Banking services provided to Choice Financial Group Column N A in Evolve bank and trust members FDIC the worst part of this week, guys, it was just impossible to watch. Was was was Holger Runa it it was brutal. And listen, this is where you you take all opinions and we've, we've, we've talked about Holger on the show and it's like, gosh, this, this carousel of coaches and this, you know, the game plan, it all just doesn't matter. None of it matters. It's just heartbreaking to see someone who's 22 in that scene and then popping an Achilles, a major injury, major career changing type injury with someone who generally like for, for any faults that he has, loves playing this game, always shows up, plays a big schedule. You feel like he doesn't mail it in now he gets, does he get nuts sometimes? Sure, we all do. The guy loves this game. And you could see when the, even the threat of him knowing that he might not be around much in the next year, devastating. The emotion just fell out of his face. It was just impossible to watch. I hated to see it.
- [26:45]
C
JW I think the, if there's any silver lining to this story, he's 22, there's Runway ahead. But I think that also in some ways might compound things. I mean this is really, this is, your whole trajectory has changed. I mean, I don't know if you saw some of his social media posts. I mean, it doesn't look like he will play until 2027 maybe. Best case scenario, maybe he plays the Open. But imagine you're 22 years old, you're going along, you've had some nice wins, you've not quite been the Carlos Alcaraz foil that someone had once painted you as. But you know, it's been a very solid, nice career with an upward trajectory. And now there are a lot of question marks. I have so much, I mean, we can talk at some point about whether this is correlation or causation. If this is overplaying which people jump to. I think not unreasonably. I also wonder, have you, I'm curious what happens when you come back from an injury like this. I mean, I just think as mere civilian, as mere mortal, if I had an injury like this, I would be really nervous getting on the treadmill once I was able to recover. I mean, I don't know. It's one thing to say, yes, I'll be back in a year. But what happens when you come back from an injury mentally as well as physically? Do you have experience with that?
- [27:57]
A
The anticipation of pain sometimes carries more mental scar tissue than the actual pain when you're coming back because there is going to be a point where he has to start taking those steps. And it's a weird thing as an athlete, there is going to be scar tissue. This was his body is Dealing with major trauma right now. So when he comes back, he's like, that hurts. It's like, some of it is good hurt because you got to break through some scar tissue. Some of it is bad hurt. So you have to be very aware of the exact feelings that you're having. Confidence is another thing. Like, am I a step slower? It just all compounds itself. And then, not to mention, a lot of times when you're favoring something for this long, which he will be. He will not have direct impact on that leg for months.
- [28:48]
B
Yeah.
- [28:49]
A
The other side, all of a sudden, it's like this body shift, and that's when injuries occur. Right. I blew up my hamstring, you know, was it three or four years ago? Because I'm not in shape, and I sprinted for a ball, and it felt like someone literally shot me in my leg and I was down. I've never had that feeling in my life. Like, rolled up, done. Like, it's like what you saw with Holger. You instantly know something really bad has happened. Right. Not an ankle where you twist it, and then you don't know until you take that first step. If it's. You take that first step, and you're like, okay, this is two days or this is two weeks. You can tell that. Instantly knew it. But then the next year, because I'm favoring another leg for I get a fracture in my knee twice, you know, so there is all this. To your point, jw, it's not just about the one thing. The entire body, the psyche, coming back. If I'm in Holger Runa's camp, like, obviously, you got to see how the rehab goes. The one thing I want to establish is that we are not in a rush to get back. Yeah, we are 22. Let's say you want to play till you're 35. Is two months going to matter? And the downside of rushing back versus the upside of being completely healthy when you come back to JW's point, I think is sizable. Do you want to rush back to try to play three out of five sets? Can you make a run at the US Open? And does it matter if you make it to the round of 16? Let's have all of those conversations.
- [30:15]
B
Yeah.
- [30:15]
A
Or, I mean, I guess I think. I almost think my goal would be like, hey, listen, let's go hard, and let's see if we can't play a couple smaller events at the end of next year. Yeah, let's go hide in the Futures or a Challenger or, like, so we just Hope that he has a good rehab process. We hope that surgery goes well. I mean, it's just heartbreaking to see and like, there's a lot of chatter about injuries. We talk about it all the time, but it sucks that it takes something this extreme to go to kind of sober us up about the thing we talk about all the time.
- [30:48]
B
Yeah, I think just final perspective on time back. I mean, Aaron Rodgers tore his Achilles, what, at the beginning of last year in the NFL season and he's back playing right now for the Steelers and he's much, much older than.
- [31:01]
A
Yeah, you also have to move much, much less.
- [31:03]
B
It's. I'm just, I'm just saying at least that the pathway forward with science and technology around these surgeries for a 22 year old is promising and I hope he takes that away. Right. I think. But Kim Kleistor's just tore her Achilles, you know, and she was, had the same thing. She had a sore hamstring on the opposite side of her body from where the injury happened. And that's exactly what Holger that offset. He had a sore hamstring and then he popped the Achilles, you know. But she said she's going to be laid up with her foot elevated for two weeks and then it's from there. She said they're, they're going to get whatever special boot she has off of her in a couple months. And then the main thing is for her not to be worried about the atrophy of her legs. So a lot of it's mental, you.
- [31:45]
A
Know, a lot of it's physical. The atrophy is real. Like you can, you can look at someone. Like I saw someone last week. We were. You can look at someone and the calf gets higher on that leg. Like the atrophy is real.
- [31:57]
B
Wow.
- [31:57]
A
Like Sam, I mean, Sam query did it also, you know, not too long.
- [32:01]
B
Ago, Achilles right now.
- [32:02]
A
But like the atrophy is real. So I don't know if you can affect that. I don't know. My old coach Larry Stefanki did it really. Achilles rolled up and he's like, my leg was really never, never the same. Now I'm sure having a major injury, a traumatic injury in the 80s versus now, I mean the medical technology is night and day from what it was. But like, I don't know, man. Like, you can't run it this hot. It doesn't mean that every injury is because of the schedule. And we'd be absolute idiots not to say, why don't we have spacing? Why can't we Create a schedule for the player's health. Yeah, long term. I'm not saying that like Holger did this definitely because of the schedule. I can say definitively this schedule is helping absolutely nobody's health.
- [33:01]
B
Yeah. Well Draper and Fritz. Yeah, you have their took to X to say just the same thing. Draper said injuries are going to happen. We're pushing our bodies to do things that aren't supposed to in elite sports. We have so many incredible young guys on the tour right now and I'm proud to be a part of that. However, the tour and the calendar have to adapt if any of us are going to achieve some sort of longevity. And then Taylor Fritz replied to that facts also seeing more injuries and burnout now than ever before because balls, courts, conditions have slowed down a lot, making the weekly grind even more physically demanding and tough on the body. So and a bunch of players have stepped out on the women's side because of wear and tear and mental strain also.
- [33:44]
A
Yeah, listen, if you're not, if you don't have, if you're not playing for a finals birth, like I got to a point where I played 03,04, basically 01 through 04, like pretty much everything, Davis cup every week, you know, a million things. 03 I won over 70 matches. 04 One over, over 70 matches. That is a massive number of matches. So I don't know how much I lost. I probably played around 85, 90 matches each year, singles only, that's not including doubles. And it got to the point where I was very eyes wide open that if, if the, the space in the schedule wasn't created by the tours, then I just had to create it. So does that mean I get fined if I miss Monte Carlo? Does that mean I get fined if I miss, you know, other tournaments post Miami? So I basically had a pocket in November, December and sometimes I didn't play World Tour finals depending on how much work I needed. So I had to create a pocket in April. I was like, okay, I can hit my fitness hard and build up for the rest of the summer again. Right. So I basically after those things I like, I can't keep going at this pace. I, I, it's just a physical impossibility. You know, mentally I can show up and I can play and I can kind of get through it, but there has to be a tail mentally as well. But physically it's like, okay, I'm going to start creating my own space. And so then it's, well, you miss a lot of the clay court seasons. Well, yeah, If I'm going to create space to get my body right, what else would I miss? Not missing hard court, not missing grass court. So this isn't that hard to understand, you know, and you have to create your own space. But I'll tell you, I was able to because my ranking was high enough. I wasn't worried about paychecks. I had endorsements, I had a lot of privilege based on my accomplishments up to that point where I could pick and choose my spots. And not everyone can do that.
- [35:33]
C
Jw, I'm going to tee you up because I think you hit on it. Part of this is like, hey, listen, I want you to toss your, do your service toss, but the ball can't come down. And you say, that's fucking nuts. Laws of gravity. And hey, raise interest rates and I want bond prices to go up too. And you say, well, that's crazy. They go in inverse order. These are laws that you're asking to.
- [35:54]
A
Violate revenue and expect the deficit to come down.
- [35:56]
C
What, Would that ever happen? No, but I want you to play this ridiculous schedule. And we're gonna do carrot and sticks and part of it's gonna be fines and part of it's gonna be bonuses. We're gonna send you all across the world and hey, I need you to remain fully healthy in October. And in a best case scenario, players like Sinner and Alcaraz say, untenable, I ain't going to Canada for 12 days. And Kasakina and Francis and other players are saying, listen, I don't care if I get fined, I got to shut this down. Worst case scenario is you have players overplaying and getting hurt. The problem with all this is that outside, you just hit on it, which is outside of the top 15 or 20 players want more opportunities. Players don't want to cut tournaments. If you're ranked number 50, you want more opportunities. And bear in mind too, those are players that have a voice at the ATP level on the board. And so you've got top players saying, the schedule's ridiculously long. I'm burning myself out, I'm getting hurt. And you've got a whole cadre of contemporaries who are not reaching finals, who might play one match in Cincinnati and then have a lot of dead time. They're saying, I want more opportunities. I think it's not perfect. There may be some holes in it. I think your fall proposal deserves a re tee up. I think you kind of hit on a solution here.
- [37:22]
A
There's a million moving parts.
- [37:23]
C
I don't know if you still hold it.
- [37:24]
A
Absolutely. One. At what point do we have a sober view? And I've been beating this drum. Didn't know if I was going to be right. But 12 days at every Masters 1000. Sucks. Sucks. To your point, JW, it sucks for the top players. It sucks for the players that play one match and then have to kill time for 12 days before the next event.
- [37:47]
B
Yeah.
- [37:49]
A
It is not working. Players are not less injured because of this. It's just not happening.
- [37:57]
B
Yeah.
- [37:57]
A
And now it's like, we're going to find our pockets and the pockets are going to be Shanghai and the pockets are going to be. You know, Canada is in a precarious spot after. After Wimbledon. People are playing a big schedule into that. You're going to get more pullouts from these events. If they're 12 days versus. Listen, I can go in and play two weeks before the US Open. Two weeks now means I can play Cincinnati.
- [38:21]
B
Yeah.
- [38:21]
A
You know, whatever it might be, I think that. I think what you were trying to team me up for, jw, is. And I know some of you keyboard warriors are going to like, bring up the one time in 1997 where a 250 actually affected who made World Tour Finals great 97 or 98% of the time. Especially with the way that 250s are valued now, where you can only count a certain amount of them and they're largely irrelevant for the top players after, you know, you win one or two World Tour finals should end. And then all of the 250s that we just talked about, Brussels with FAA Almighty Nordic Open. Why can't these exist after World Tour Finals? Why can't we have a wraparound season where these go for a month and it solves for what JW is talking about with more players want more opportunities. Great, then go do it. And then the top players can. If they choose to play Six Kings or some other exhibition, they're already not.
- [39:28]
B
Playing these other things.
- [39:29]
A
Then they can't complain about the schedule being too long anymore.
- [39:32]
B
Yeah.
- [39:33]
A
Because it's not wedged into the middle of the year. And world. They have to fill some space. They have to play something before World Tour Finals. If it ends, you know, in the back half of November, like, you can't not play. I mean, something's got to give. We got to move World Tour. We have to have a goal to be done by November 1st. If you're a top player, then you then pushing through the finish line feels okay, right? Doing that last push, you know, I can wrap my head around grinding for the last month. Now, if that's two months plus Davis cup afterwards, which sinner's never going to get away from because Italy is going to be good forever or Alcaraz, whatever. I mean we get to World Tour Finals and then we're talking about Davis cup after that.
- [40:14]
B
Yeah.
- [40:14]
A
And then people are going to be pissed if you pull out of anything. What? And then you're putting that on the players where everyone's pissed at them.
- [40:21]
B
And then the United Cups right after that. I mean it's in your ridiculous.
- [40:24]
A
Like you can have a wraparound season every single fall.250 should be after World Tour finals. And if it's not every single one, it should be the majority of them. And people like, oh well, there's contracts in place. At some point we're going to have to unwind something for progress. Yeah, there's a lot of people with a lot of money who would love the opportunity to start from scratch with this thing. I don't know that that's ever been the case with this kind of kick the can down the road from the tours. Right. The tours have had total control over the tour. The slams have had their space. It's been largely uninterrupted for 30 plus years. Right.
- [41:02]
B
Yeah.
- [41:03]
A
It's a lot of money from a lot of people with a lot of ideas.
- [41:06]
B
Yeah. There's a lot of sharks in the water.
- [41:08]
A
A lot of sharks in the water in the ATP.
- [41:10]
C
Let me add, let me add this to. Well, I mean, first of all, you're right. Some of this is just. Look, there are only so many suitcases that are going to fit in the trunk of that sports car and you can put fancy names on it and offer bonuses. It's just not going to happen. There are some inviolable laws. I also think we haven't talked about the fans much. One of the great assets of the NFL is scarcity. Right. There are 17 games. You can't go see it every single day of the week. There's a long off season when you have anticipation and you have chatter. Maybe it's better for the tennis business model to actually make fans miss it.
- [41:45]
A
Absolutely.
- [41:47]
B
Anyway, it's a pre model.
- [41:48]
A
You can't follow it like it's. It's too much.
- [41:51]
B
It's too much. It's too much.
- [41:53]
A
You can't follow it 12 months a year. Like you have to give to JW's point. You have to give people a chance to miss it. We should be having shows where we're hyping up. I Cannot wait for the tennis season to start. Yeah, I can't wait for it. We're going, oh, fuck. It just ended.
- [42:06]
B
And I do think these exhibitions are great for the sport. Right? I think getting to see top players play, you know, in center, that's also.
- [42:13]
A
That'S also the dog whistle. It's like, okay, the problem, the reason why we can't cut it short is because other people might have events.
- [42:20]
B
So that's what I'm saying.
- [42:21]
A
Who gives a shit what other people do?
- [42:22]
B
Shit.
- [42:23]
A
Like you call us independent contractors until we have the ability to be an independent contractor.
- [42:27]
B
Or how about they go and raise, you know, six million dollars to guarantee a four and a half million dollar pricing for an exhibition. But Sinner said, granted, he's like, oh, I'm not really playing for the money. I'm like, okay. But he's like, I get to play the best. I get to play the best guys in the world. And you're like, all right. He. That's kind of cool.
- [42:42]
C
You know, he walked that back. For the, for the record, he walked that back.
- [42:46]
B
Yeah, but I'm saying he still said it. He still said it. And the fact of the matter is, like, it is fun watching them play each other, just period.
- [42:54]
A
Yeah, it's fun, but they play each other. But to our point, they play each other every week.
- [42:57]
B
Yeah.
- [42:58]
A
Like, do I care? Honestly, do I care if they're playing each other in this thing?
- [43:03]
B
No.
- [43:03]
A
Where they have mics on and it's like you. Not really. But that doesn't mean they shouldn't do it. That doesn't mean it's not effective for that part of the world. That doesn't mean that it doesn't have value to someone. I don't really care. Yeah, but that's not the point. The point, like let's, let's figure out the tours. Let's figure out the best optionality for adults to make decisions about their careers. You know, just because they might go do something else doesn't mean that you get to decide. You may get to make that decision for them. And it's not. You're literally putting in a schedule that is going to exist for years and years and years. Sinner might play it this year, next year. He might be like, it's too much but like the flexibility to listen, we need our stars in the game as long as we can. Yeah. Jw, yeah.
- [43:43]
C
No. What do you think of this take, though? Because that's something. I mean, this is when you talk to the ATP, when you even the WTA when you talk, I mean this is, you certainly see this on social media. Everybody says, oh yeah, easy for Taylor Fritz to bitch about this from when he's playing in Riyadh for X million dollars. Easy for these players to complain and then they go jet off to exhibitions. You and I have talked about how exhibitions are different from tour events, but I see them one as a consequence of the other, right? If you're asking me to go to Canada in August for 12 days or Cincinnati and I can say, wait a second, I can go to Saudi Arabia, I'll make more money, I don't have to play as many matches and I won't have to play as hard. I think this exhibition money grab is a consequence of the schedule. Not inconsistent and hypocritical, but no, the first thing the tour says is like these players bitch about the schedule and then they traipse around the world in November and December making money. And I say, yeah, they're doing that as a result of your schedule. Not at odds.
- [44:39]
A
Well, I'm sorry, what do you think? Here's my thing on anything. Like you hear people pitch in on Nil and like, I can't believe these guys are going here. It's just about the. Listen, in order for someone to complain about it, they can't expect an adult to make a different decision than they would make. That's called hypocrisy.
- [45:01]
B
What's that?
- [45:02]
A
So if I tell you sitting at home that you can go somewhere and for four days get paid quadruple what you would get for much harder work for 40 days, what would you do? Now you might not do it. Then you can go ahead and have your opinions. But if you absolutely would do it, which I suspect most of earth would do. Shut it.
- [45:29]
B
Yeah, shut it.
- [45:31]
A
I don't know that I would have gone there. I don't care about, like, I have a heart, you know, I would have played a bunch of one nighters here or something instead, I don't know. But I don't know. Go do it. I'm going to tell sinner how to.
- [45:41]
B
Manage his career when I think a lot of is. All right, so outside of the top 15, you know, outside of the top 10 like we talked about, it's like opportunities to play, you know. And I think if, if you organize something, even, even the off season can be a season inside of itself where you're not demanding the top 20 players to play everything that you can be high with marketing genius, you can create a tournament where, I don't know, maybe somebody outside the 20, they. They gain points, and then they win automatic wild cards into all the Slams, you know, by accruing the most points through two months.
- [46:10]
A
Yeah. Well, the other thing is make it fun. Well, also, we're gonna pay a lot more attention to these if it was a wraparound 250 situation.
- [46:17]
B
Yeah.
- [46:18]
A
We're gonna be analyzing those events. They're gonna have a bigger microscope as opposed to like 6 and also 16. Like the fact that it's on Netflix. It's presented a different way. We're testing. Or we're dipping our toe in streaming. You get a lot of feedback from this event. I don't. I'm personally not like, a massive fan of it. Not that I'm against it. I just don't care. I'm not gonna clear my day.
- [46:37]
B
You're not a massive fan of the event in terms of it having a. I don't have a spot on the mantle with the other stuff.
- [46:44]
A
I don't have to see it.
- [46:45]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You don't have to.
- [46:46]
A
Novak are playing in. It's like, great. I can look at the scoreline. Like, I'm not obsessed with it. Like, I am. It doesn't have the consequence of real tournaments. Right. It doesn't have the emotional set. So therefore I'm less motivated to watch it. Doesn't mean it. Someone isn't interested.
- [47:03]
B
Yeah. It's same amount of days as labor cup. And it's completely different vibe.
- [47:07]
A
Totally different vibe. And which is great. I like one. I don't like whatever. But it doesn't matter. Point being, what you do, you shorten the season good for all. You create opportunities past that for 80% of tour that still wants it. And then if Alcaraz and Sinner and whatever want to go play this stuff, they lose the ability to complain about the schedule as it is right now. They don't. Because you've extended every Masters 1000 to 12 days. And something's got to give. And I could argue that it's less taxing on their body to JW's point to go here for four days than it is to commit to two masters 1000s over 24 days. I actually think the net. Net result for the tours is going to be the opposite of what they intended. We'll see. I don't know. Amazon has everything for everyone on your list. Like your teenage son who won't give up the peach fuzz currently posing as a mustache on his upper lip. Get him an electric razor. Amazon has early holiday deals on gifts everyone wants like the latest kitchen gadgets and toys and some they don't even know they need. Like that razor. Grab him a mirror too, so he.
- [48:18]
C
Can see how pretty he is without.
- [48:19]
A
That dirt on his lip. Every story you love, every invention that moves you, every idea you wished was yours, all began as nothing. Just a blank page with a blinking cursor asking a simple question. What do you see?
- [48:47]
B
Great ideas.
- [48:49]
A
Start on Mac. Find out more on apple.com Mac another.
- [48:55]
B
Thing that came out of, you know, Riyadh was there's this Joy forum and Novak took a stage with Dana White and with Shaquille o'. Neal. And he was talking about kind of where tennis currently sits and how he feels about it. Obviously, Novak is one of the co founders of the ptpa, but he had this to say.
- [49:13]
D
When you see there's injustice.
- [49:17]
B
You do.
- [49:17]
D
Something about it, you know, and in our sport, there's, there's a big monopoly that has been there for decades. And so that was actually the biggest inspiration for me and Vasik Pospische, who's my colleague tennis player. We founded a professional tennis players association, which is basically a union of players, which we don't have in all the American sports. I mean, Shaq, you know, you were one of the leaders of the players union back in the days when you guys were. We're fighting for the pay, for the equal pays and representation of the players. We don't have that in our sport. We didn't have it. Now we have the ptpa, but still we don't have the seat at the table where the decisions are being made. That's the downside of our sport and the way it's structured, the system is as it is. So to go back to the point I've always wanted to be looking to innovate where I see there's room for innovation and stand up. And with my achievements, I have thankfully a platform and a mic in my hand and I can say certain things that are going to hurt a lot of people and they're going to disturb a lot of chairs, but I don't care because in the end of the day, I love this sport. This sport has given me everything in my life. So I want to give it back, not, not just on the court, but outside of the court as well. What can I do for the players? What can I do for this sport? How can I personally engage in certain changes that these gentlemen know very well about in their respective sports? How can we force that in a right way? So that's something that is going to, you know, a lot of people are going to oppose that and they're not going to like it. But in the end of the day, I can sleep well. My heart is at the right place, and I know that I'm doing something that inspires me. Inspires me. The fire that Shaq referred to, that. It just keeps going. It just keeps going because, you know, as long as you live, as long as you breathe, you want to create. You want to make this world a better place from the standpoint of where you are.
- [51:29]
A
Jw, you just spent some time with Dana White. So we're talking about, you guys know, about players unions and how we need them to fight for our sports. Dana White is in a lawsuit for like fucking billions of dollars trying to take a dump on anyone who wants to unionize. Is that. Am I overstating that? Jw, he was on the stage right there with Novak, like two seats to the right. Yeah.
- [51:58]
C
I mean, the other thing is that the tens. I mean, this. The UFC settled for, I believe, $375 million, a lawsuit brought by former players that essentially it was a sort of anti restraint of trade, basically union busting. And there are other lawsuits pending. So I did wonder, there was a bit of irony. I did wonder what Dana White thought about this upsetting deck chairs.
- [52:23]
A
During that monologue.
- [52:26]
C
You can watch that whole segment on YouTube. At one point, Dana White got stuck and sort of, I think he said, referred to Djokovic as that guy down there who's a killer.
- [52:36]
B
Yeah, he's a killer.
- [52:37]
C
I don't think there was a long term relationship between the two of them. But no, Novak's comments were interesting. They were a little vague. I'm not quite sure. He's kind of distanced himself from this ptpa. His name is very notably not a name. Plaintiff on this lawsuit. That was. I just, I'm not sure what he was. It sounded good, but I'm not sure what the specifics were.
- [52:58]
A
And also the monopoly, is that the tour or is that the slams or is that all of the above?
- [53:03]
B
I think it's all the above.
- [53:04]
A
You say system and it's like, okay, specifically which system? You say monopoly. Okay, specifically which monopoly? It's kind of the same thing where I, you know, we had an episode where it was. I was certainly less than the best version of myself with the CEO of the ptpa. Yeah. Last year. And it's like, okay, well, we've started a union. I was specifically told by them that it's not a union. Right.
- [53:26]
B
Well, it's Basically a union.
- [53:28]
A
It's basically a union according to. But legally it's not because there are some problems with that. And also, just frankly speaking, like, I love, I think Novak is extremely well intentioned. I think the players in the locker room have grown to really love and adore this guy as a leader in the sport. And also at some point he's like, I, I might, I'm going to come out and say some things. Then, then let's say it. Yeah, this thing's been around for a long time now. Right? Let's, let's just come out and say it.
- [53:56]
B
Why? I think, I think let's be specific.
- [53:58]
A
And also, let's be. This is the thing that I need as, as, like when I'm trying to get on board because obviously I, I think there needs to be a union. I just think that the players need to decide who is, who is that for them. I don't think you can start a union and then say, we represent you. I don't think that's the way it works. And it hasn't worked for, for, for.
- [54:19]
B
The PTP and another group of players. And John, maybe you can expand on this. Another group of players have, have signed, you know, now I think multiple letters to the slams, you know, asking for increased pay, asking for a seat at the table. And I believe Novak, who isn't a part of the lawsuit by name, did sign the first version of that, which is outside of the ptp.
- [54:37]
A
So he signed, he signed the first.
- [54:39]
B
Version of the letter.
- [54:39]
A
He's in the first version of the player represented. I think Larry Scott is running that group. He signed that letter and then did not sign the PTPA lawsuit.
- [54:51]
B
Correct. And then I believe they sent a second letter which reportedly. I don't believe Novak signed the second letter.
- [55:00]
C
Yeah, we should probably talk about this more. There is this group of. And these are top players. They're meeting face to face. One thing we talked about with the PTPA is like, great, sounds good. But the players don't talk about this. The players are not lending their support. The players are not lending their platform the loss of trying to get players.
- [55:18]
B
Out to talk about it.
- [55:19]
C
Oh yeah, exactly.
- [55:20]
A
We had two cancellations this week for the player letter, people that were involved in the player letter. So I guess at some point it's like, if you want the money, let's talk about it. I'd love to. I want to learn more about it because we get all these vague reports of. There was a letter sent. Who was it sent to? Was there a response? We don't know. Like, I'd love to just plain speak everything in tennis into reality. Like, I don't.
- [55:45]
C
That was.
- [55:45]
A
I don't think we need this cloak and dagger situation where it's like we're talking about like buzzwords like Monopoly injustices. We just want the best. Like, what does that mean? Right. We all want that. But, like, we actually, at some point, there needs to be a very specific plan. Otherwise everyone who is who it benefits to kick the can down the road and just hope that, you know, next year leads into three years is going to keep being able to do that. Now the big thing is the money coming in to tennis. That is the difference between these conversations that were the same 10 years ago and now. JW, do you have a point there?
- [56:23]
C
Yeah. You want a little. I think I can say this on the air. The WTA is on the one yard line. Apparently the WTA has a very big title sponsor to replace Hologic, a car company about to come on board, which again, is another sign that, yeah, the money is changing. But I think you're right that I'm not even sure who's gumming up the works here, guys. Is it the tours? Is it the majors? Is it expanding into three weeks? The only thing I've never seen, Killer Frit.
- [56:52]
A
They all. Spider man meme. You know the Spider man meme where it's like, hey, techie Sean, get in there. We all just kind of. So the answer, depending on who you're talking to, is yes. Is it the majors? Yes. Is the tours? Yes. Is the itf? Yes. And it's just all the Spider man meme. And no one's responsible for their. It's like, oh, okay. But then I've had conversations with people in these organizations and it's like, yeah, but you chose to do this. And like, well, it's only because of, you know, it's like you chose to cheat on your handicap. Well, it's only because everyone else in the club cheats on their handicap. Jackson.
- [57:23]
C
Name, name. You know, we glossed over this point. Can we just take one second and give some serious flowers to Taylor Fritz? I thought his response, and he was responding to a fan. It was full of specifics. It had common sense. It had logic. He was naming, you know, the mixing and matching of the balls on the slow surfaces. I really understood it better after reading what he said. That's what we need.
- [57:45]
A
We should have had him on this week.
- [57:47]
B
I wish we could have.
- [57:48]
C
He would do it. We should.
- [57:50]
A
We should have had him on.
- [57:51]
B
It was a little Busy?
- [57:52]
A
Yeah, we tried.
- [57:53]
B
It was a little busy. Next time, different time zone.
- [57:55]
A
Next time we need specifics.
- [57:59]
C
Bottom line, that's it.
- [58:00]
A
It's like I'm so sick of, I'm so sick of buzzwords and I'm so sick of. Let's leave it in a bit like. Well, you know, obviously we're well intended. We want it to be in a better place. Therefore you should put all our trust in us. No, you need a plan.
- [58:15]
B
Can I, I mean, is it, is it lost on anyone that, you know. Novak delivered this statement on a stage from an event, you know, held by a group that is reportedly investing somewhere around half a billion dollars through 2029 in the Saudis, you know, between the six king slam, the WTA finals in Riyadh, ATP Next Gen Finals and Jeddah, the, the rankings, sponsorships. And plus, you know, they've also been rumored to commit 2 billion to a merger for the ATP in WTA. You know, they're trying to get a 1,000. You know, there's lots of money there. You know, there's billions of dollars to be able to support it. And that's the biggest hang up. And he's sharing a stage with a guy in Dana White who is partnered with Ari Emanuel who happened to just buy a couple 1000s with Redbird Capital. So I'm not just. If I had some foil, I'd build a hat.
- [59:01]
A
Does Redbird Capital have any, have they ever had anything to do with the PTP at all or any of, any of their buyouts or their companies or anything?
- [59:08]
B
I think that they did some stuff with Ahmad Nassar at One Team Partners when he.
- [59:11]
A
So he got paid One team and then went on and now they're.
- [59:14]
B
They left.
- [59:15]
A
Got it. Okay.
- [59:16]
C
Redbird Capital, River Capital is also where the former CEO of the ATP Tour landed.
- [59:21]
B
Yes. I'm just saying.
- [59:23]
A
Wait, that's just all fucking coincidence.
- [59:27]
C
Wait, can we do, Can I bore you? Can I be a nerd and give you a two minute TED talk here? I was just thinking about this when we were watching this two years ago. Martina and Chrissy write a letter talking about sports washing and they both are very much objecting to the WTA potentially going to Saudi Arabia. You and I talked about this last year about the sort of, does tennis belong in Saudi. This is part of obviously a larger branding project 2030 using sports and entertainment to change perceptions of culture. Here we are, we talked about this. We saw Shaq, Dana White, Novak Djokovic on stage. This is not to condemn. This is just observation. This is not Taking a stand here. This is kind of how sports watching works. We didn't mention that this is happening in Saudi Arabia. A year or two ago of. We would have. We would have devoted a lot of time to whether they're there. The flip side is, look, Saudi Arabia is the moderate player in the Middle east right now. Saudi Arabia took a big stake in this new purchase of EA Sports. But this would have been two years ago. We would have had a lot of discussion about whether Novak had any business being in Saudi Arabia. And now he's on stage, there's a PIF banner behind him, and it's normal. Coco Gauff goes to Riyadh. Nobody is debating that or arguing that. This is kind. And again, this is not to condemn. Maybe this is great use of sports to move your culture in a different direction. But I think we got a pretty vivid illustration of how sports washing works and how things that seemed controversial two years ago have now been completely normalized.
- [61:02]
A
Yeah. I mean, I'll tell you, this whole movement with the Saudis, they're smart. Who are like the responsible voices that you need to vouch for you. I don't know. Can we get Rafa?
- [61:14]
B
Yeah.
- [61:14]
A
Can we get Billie Jean King? Say, just give us a chance.
- [61:18]
B
Yeah. This isn't without an impact.
- [61:20]
A
That makes a difference. You have these trusted voices, these credible voices saying, you know what? Let's. Let's affect change. And that changes the entire narrative. It just does.
- [61:28]
B
Yeah. Yeah. But we'll see. I mean, we'll see where it goes. Hopefully we can get some more concrete recommendations out of someone in the Spider man outfit on what we should be doing.
- [61:39]
A
Spider Man.
- [61:40]
B
Me. I think the thing is, two of the Spider mans are gonna have to come together.
- [61:43]
A
Two of the Spider Mans, two of the three are there. Spider Mai, Spider Man. What is that? There's a lot going on. You're 10. At some point, I'm curious how this all is gonna shake out. Because I'm a tennis person, so I'm curious how this is all gonna shake out. Also, I'm curious how it's all gonna shake out. Cause at some point, I want to read your tinfoil hat manifesto from like 8 months ago on air. And we'll timestamp it, find that group text. We can timestamp it. We can show the whole thing. But it was. Mike had, like, basically this whole thing, and he was all over it, and some of the names in it were like, I don't know, Ari, Manuel.
- [62:27]
B
Yeah.
- [62:29]
A
And he had this whole tinfoil of head. I'M like, dude, but we don't know this for sure. Like, we don't know this. We susp that this is where it's going. But at some point, you might have to read your tinfoil hat manifesto. Yeah.
- [62:41]
B
I mean, you know, at some. Some point, babbling brook can become a river.
- [62:45]
A
You know.
- [62:47]
B
It seems to be flowing pretty good right now.
- [62:50]
A
What else? Do we have any. Any notes? Anything going?
- [62:53]
B
No.
- [62:54]
A
What do we.
- [62:54]
B
No. This is a good inaugural episode for our new studio.
- [62:58]
A
It's amazing. I kind of forgot I was in here for a second. I just salted to the work.
- [63:01]
B
Nobody's sweating like you were during your armchair expert, dude.
- [63:06]
C
That was a great interview, by the way.
- [63:08]
B
Can we see the expert with Dax Shepard? It was awesome. If you guys haven't seen it links in the show notes. But Dax was very nice in saying that Andy was very sweaty, so I didn't know this.
- [63:17]
A
Apparently, they were talking about, like, they had a guest who was super sweaty. You know who that was? Holler at your boy.
- [63:23]
B
Oh, man.
- [63:24]
A
It was so hot in there. And I sweat. I sweat in a cold room. Yeah, I'm a sweaty. I'm sorry. I was just born this. I'm a sweaty person. I don't know what you want from me. And also, I feel like it was like a stress test. It was the hottest place in Los Angeles that day.
- [63:38]
B
What'd you think of the episode, John?
- [63:40]
C
I thought it was great. And, you know, honestly, sometimes it helps to not have tennis nerds. These were not hardcore tennis fans, and I think sometimes that actually is a benefit. And I think Andy's perspective started differently than if somebody had said, oh, when you had Juan Carlos Ferrero up in the ropes that September day in 2020. I mean, sometimes it's benefits to have people have a completely fresh perspective. Very good interview.
- [64:02]
A
Not surprising after having experienced armchair expert. Not surprising to see why he's been so successful in this space.
- [64:11]
B
Yeah.
- [64:13]
A
Researched. You'd mentioned something from when you're 9, and he's like, oh, yeah, it was this, like, just dialed. It's not surprising. And also fine with disagreement.
- [64:21]
C
Right.
- [64:21]
A
I thought their. Their whole team, their whole setup was amazing. I think they're trailblazers with, like. We literally, literally went into his garage, and he's doing whatever numbers he's doing out of there. It's just really cool. I enjoyed Dax as a person. I enjoyed doing the show. I enjoy you all as people.
- [64:37]
B
Thank you.
- [64:38]
A
I enjoy doing this show.
- [64:39]
C
Thanks, man.
- [64:40]
B
Can we plug Jake Johnson's one, too? Cause that one's hilarious.
- [64:42]
A
Oh, we're here to help.
- [64:43]
B
We're here to help.
- [64:43]
A
I would do that for. That's the only job in the world I'd do for free all the time.
- [64:46]
B
Have you listened to that one yet, Jon? Andy did.
- [64:48]
C
We're here. It's on the list.
- [64:52]
A
The premise of the show is hilarious. Basically, people call in for advice about crazy situations, and they try to give the funniest version of advice that might actually work. Jake Johnson. We did a movie that will come out later. Not later this year, but early next year about pickleball called the Dink. Anyways, Jake Johnson's, like, the funniest person on earth. He does this podcast. We're here to help. We did an episode, so check that one out, too.
- [65:13]
B
Yeah, it's great. That's all we got.
- [65:15]
A
All right, well, thank you for watching. Served. Gosh, this is just. Is that velvet?
- [65:20]
B
Yeah.
- [65:20]
A
Is that. Do we have a velvet curtain?
- [65:22]
B
I'm pretty sure it's not real.
- [65:24]
A
All right, we'll see.
- [65:24]
C
Love what you've done with the place.
- [65:25]
A
We'll see you next week.
- [65:37]
C
And Doug, here we have the Limu Emu in its natural habitat, helping people customize their car insurance and save hundreds with Liberty Mutual.
- [65:48]
B
Fascinating.
- [65:49]
C
It's accompanied by his natural ally, Doug.
- [65:53]
A
Uh, Limu is that guy with the binoculars watching us.
- [65:56]
B
Cut the camera.
- [65:56]
C
They see us.
- [65:57]
A
Only pay for what you need@libertymutual.com Liberty, Liberty, Liberty. Liberty Savings vary underwritten by Liberty Mutual Insurance Company and affiliates. Excludes Massachusetts. What are your holiday traditions? Putting up a minimum of six trees. Decorating every room with a different theme. Whatever it is, here's one way to make those traditions extra special. Start the season with Etsy. On Etsy, you'll discover original pieces from small shops to help you celebrate your way. Shop Etsy for holiday decor that makes you feel seen.
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B
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A
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