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Episode: Patrick Radden Keefe on Finding Great Stories

Date: April 7, 2026
Host: Amna Nawaz (A)
Guest: Patrick Radden Keefe (B), author & New Yorker staff writer

EPISODE OVERVIEW

In this episode, Amna Nawaz sits down with renowned investigative journalist and writer Patrick Radden Keefe to discuss his new book, London Falling, and his approach to deeply reported storytelling. The conversation spans Keefe’s path into journalism, the art of discovering compelling stories, building trust with sources, and why family dynamics and secrets resonate throughout his work. He also speaks about interacting with dangerous sources, what it’s like adapting his writing for television, and how themes from his reporting echo in present-day society.

KEY DISCUSSION POINTS & INSIGHTS

Journey to Journalism

• Early Influences: Keefe fell in love with journalism in high school, captivated by The New Yorker's long-form true stories that felt like fiction in their depth and drama.
  • "I started reading The New Yorker magazine when I was in high school … these long, detailed articles … felt as though they had some of the qualities of short fictional … where there’s a sense of drama and interesting characters and the plot keeps thickening." (01:29)
• Persistence and Breakthrough: Keefe spent seven years pitching before The New Yorker gave him his first assignment, during which he even trained in law as a backup plan.
  • "Finally, after truly, after seven years of pitching," he recalls, "The New Yorker accepted my first assignment." (02:23)
• First Big Story: The story of Sister Ping, a notable Chinatown smuggler, became his debut and second book, showcasing his attraction to complex, morally ambiguous figures. (02:44)

How Keefe Finds His Stories

• Serendipity over Strategy: Keefe says his best stories often find him through chance encounters and following his curiosity, rather than deliberate searching.
  • "When I go looking for my stories, I never find anything good. The best way is to just be sort of moving through life and be curious." (04:42)
  • Example: Say Nothing emerged from reading an obituary that caught his attention (05:21).
• Listening to Instincts: He learned to pay attention to moments when he feels “himself leaning forward” towards a story, signaling he should pursue it (05:53).

The Genesis of London Falling

• Chance Encounter: While on set for the TV adaptation of Say Nothing in London, a casual conversation led to the story of Zach Brettler—a 19-year-old whose mysterious death revealed a hidden double life (06:43).
  • "He said, I know this family here in London ... they lost their 19 year old son ... in really mysterious circumstances ... they learned that their son ... had had a secret double life that they hadn't known about." (07:23)

Building Trust with Sources

• Methodical, Compassionate Approach: Keefe describes meeting grieving families off the record, listening without pressure, and maintaining transparency.
  • "We're meeting totally off the record. No commitment in either direction ... I'll listen to their story ... and I think they got a feeling for who I was through that conversation." (09:28)
• Emphasis on Honesty: He is clear with sources about the process and that once committed, “there’s no take backs.” (10:52)

Centrality of Family

• Thematic Consistency: Keefe is drawn to intricate family dynamics, focusing repeatedly on how secrets and legacies are transmitted.
  • "I'm always interested in family histories ... the way in which, you know, certain ideas get passed down from one generation to the next." (30:42)
• In London Falling: Explores how parents must confront the discovery of a child's secret life, their own sense of culpability, and their efforts to seek justice.

Social and Historical Context: The Changing Face of London

• London as a Playground for the Global Elite: Keefe situates the Brettler story within the economic and demographic transformation of London—a city shaped by deregulation and “the global 1%,” where foreign wealth, especially Russian, reshapes social realities.
  • "With the dissolution of the Soviet Union ... you have this huge influx of Russians ... this process in which foreign elites—the sort of ... global 1%—everybody wants to have a second home in London ..." (17:20)
• Impact on Identity & Aspiration: Zach, though privileged, felt “poor” in his milieu, influenced by social media and peers from ultra-wealthy backgrounds, sparking his attempts to reinvent himself (20:56).

Critique of Law Enforcement

• Failures of Investigation: The Brettler case exemplifies both incompetence and a systemic reluctance by the police to pursue cases involving powerful, moneyed interests, especially Russian oligarchs.
  • "[The police] had a tendency to sort of look the other way when they engaged in criminal activity, up to and including murder." (26:00)
• Deeper Pattern: Describes a disturbing pattern in which high-profile deaths are dismissed as “accidents” or “suicides” to avoid inconvenient truths and protect elite interests (26:00).

Emotional Aftermath and Ambiguity

• The Parents’ Quest: Zach's parents, Matthew and Rochelle Brettler, driven by love and guilt, pursued leads and confronted dangerous people themselves (28:57).
• Living with Uncertainty: Final “closure” is elusive; the emotional journey is learning to live with ambiguity and love in a more complicated, complete way.
  • "Even if you solve the riddle ... it's not going to make that sense of grief and loss go away. It's sort of learning instead to live with some of the ambiguity ..." (33:37)

The Broader Cultural Resonance

• Wealth & Hustle in Modern Culture: Keefe connects Zach’s story to a wider cultural fascination with wealth, hustle, and antiheroes, noting that the lines between admiration and moral recklessness are increasingly blurred.
  • "I think the problem for Zach was he didn’t see the Wolf of Wall Street as a cautionary tale. He saw it as an instruction manual." (37:07)
• Legacy and Reinvention: London's layered history as both a refuge and a stage for reinvention parallels both Zach’s personal story and those of generations before him.

Reflections on Violence and Division

• Echoes of the Troubles in America: Drawing from Say Nothing, Keefe observes disturbing parallels between tribal conflict in Northern Ireland and current political polarization in the U.S.
  • "You can have an American citizen, civilian, murdered by federal agents on camera ... but to look at aspects of that person's identity ... essentially say, I'm not too troubled by this ... That was ... the kind of poison that kept the Troubles going ... a sort of indifference even to human life ..." (39:11)

MEMORABLE QUOTES & MOMENTS

• Persistence Pays

  • “Seven years of pitching?!” – Amna (02:31)

• On Found Stories

  • “The best way is to just be sort of moving through life and be curious ... and I find things.” – Patrick (04:42)

• On Parental Grief & Love

  • “To me, this is, at heart, a story about their love for their son and the things that they were willing to do, really, in the name of his memory, even after his death.” – Patrick (29:10)

• On the Temptation of Dark Charisma

  • “How do you show the romance without romanticizing it? ... there's a kind of a tightrope that I'm often walking when I write.” – Patrick (47:05)

• On Portrayal in TV

  • “To watch a really talented actress ... with the camera tight on her face ... you sort of feel it in your solar plexus, I think, kind of inescapably.” – Patrick (44:18)

• On Turning Down El Chapo’s Memoir

  • “It would be very difficult to write a version of that book that he … and I would be happy with. And Chapo Guzman is not somebody I particularly wanted to make unhappy.” – Patrick (46:05)

SEGMENT TIMESTAMPS

• 01:29 – Keefe’s origins and early love of journalism
• 02:44 – First major assignment: “Snakehead” story
• 04:42 – Philosophy on finding stories
• 06:23 – How London Falling began
• 09:28 – Building trust with sources / approaching trauma
• 14:50 – Family hiring private investigator, decision to go public
• 16:06 – Sociopolitical context: money, foreign elites, and changing London
• 20:56 – Zach’s shifting perspective; influence of peers and social media
• 24:29 – Parental discomfort, family history, and generational trauma
• 25:11 – Police investigative shortcomings
• 30:42 – The importance of family legacy
• 33:37 – Living with ambiguity in grief
• 37:07 – Wealth obsession & cultural commentary
• 39:11 – Parallels between The Troubles and political division in the U.S.
• 41:41 – Experience with TV adaptations, emotional impact
• 46:02 – Being approached by El Chapo
• 47:05 – The challenge of depicting dark, charismatic figures
• 48:36 – Managing personal safety, dangers of reporting
• 50:23 – HBO cameo on “Industry”
• 51:33 – Upcoming work teased: crime story in New Orleans

TONE & STYLE

The conversation is reflective, personal, and candid, blending sobering commentary on violence and grief with wit and moments of levity. Keefe’s thoughtful, narrative-driven answers paint a vivid picture of both his process and subject matter, while Amna’s questions draw out practical and philosophical insights on stories, families, secrets, and the world journalists navigate.