Podcast Summary: "Why Malcolm Gladwell is Always Changing His Mind"

Podcast: Settle In with PBS News
Host: Amna Nawaz
Guest: Malcolm Gladwell
Date: December 23, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode features an in-depth conversation between host Amna Nawaz and acclaimed author and thinker Malcolm Gladwell, centered on Gladwell's new book, Revenge of the Tipping Point. Gladwell discusses the evolution of his thinking since his classic The Tipping Point (2000), the nature of how ideas spread, the necessity of changing one's mind, and reflects on both personal and cultural change over time. Other themes include online controversy, the role of expertise, changing journalistic ethics, and parenthood.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Gladwell’s Early Life and Path to Journalism

• Grew up in England, then Canada, identifies as Canadian. ([02:09])
• Did not initially intend to go into journalism: "I wanted to go into advertising. And I failed, couldn't get a job." ([02:44])
• Early experiences with fabricated stories for his college football team’s publicity led him to appreciate storytelling and communication. ([03:20])

2. Embracing Difference

• A family trait to "be different from people around you. Not the same." ([05:44])
• Wishes there was more variety and "weirdness" in institutions, lamenting sameness in American colleges and casinos. ([06:00])

3. Influence of Upbringing

• Gladwell’s obsession with detail as a child, e.g., collecting car brochures, was fostered by his father’s support for idiosyncrasy. ([08:13])

4. The New Book: "Revenge of the Tipping Point"

• Written as a response to his own earlier work, reflecting on how the metaphor of epidemics applies differently after 25 years—including opioid and COVID-19 crises. ([10:38])
• On comparison to the original: "It's a little darker... when I was a dark person personally, I wrote a sunny book. And now that I'm a sunny person personally, I wrote a dark book." ([13:34])

5. The Value of Being Wrong and Changing Your Mind

• Gladwell openly discusses being wrong about “broken windows” policing in The Tipping Point and sees no shame in publicly changing his mind.
  • "I do it all the time... I so consistently change my mind on things that my wife sometimes looks at me... and she's like, you could change your mind tomorrow. And I go, yeah, actually, I might." ([15:58])
• Emphasizes the importance for experts and journalists to admit error and revise beliefs as new evidence emerges.
  • "I don't trust people who don't change their mind... The only way I would ever give any expert the benefit of my trust is if I observe them, gather new evidence and alter their preconceived notion." ([17:02])

6. Journalism, Truth, and Trust

• Recounts “old school” journalism at the Washington Post, describing rigorous fact-checking and editors who prioritized truth over speed.
  • "The world now needs more Leonard Downeys. That's how journalism gets trusted again." ([24:30])
• Criticizes the current climate that prioritizes being first over being right, linking this to declining public trust. ([24:55])

7. Social Epidemics and Boundaries

• Challenges the notion that ideas spread without bounds in the digital age, emphasizing that contagion is still often hyper-local or community-specific.
  • Example: anti-vaccine sentiment and teen suicide clusters often remain localized, “tied to strong... ties that comprise the community that is local in the strongest sense of that word." ([26:59])

8. Super-Spreaders and the Contagion of Ideas

• Introduces concept of “super-spreaders" for ideas, e.g., RFK Jr. as a super-spreader of anti-vaccination sentiment. ([29:01])
• Gladwell balances digital dangers with the rise of AI as a tool for evidence-based answers, suggesting complex risks and benefits in the current era. ([31:47])

9. Overstories: Cultural Narratives and Their Change

• The concept of an “overstory”—shared societal narratives—is explored through the example of how the TV miniseries Holocaust in the late 1970s changed public discourse about the Holocaust. ([32:26])
• Notes that communal storytelling via TV is less powerful now; overstory shifts are more fragmented or localized. ([35:01])

10. Controversy, Free Speech, and Online Outrage

• Gladwell’s comments on transgender athletes were mischaracterized in the media—he clarifies he hasn’t changed his position: "This is an example, one example of me not changing my mind." ([38:41])
• Doesn’t sweat online firestorms: "You can't be someone who is involved in the world of ideas and lose sleep over these moments of kind of collective stupidity." ([42:05])
• Stresses support for broader trans rights while separating the issue of competitive sports: "I am a deep supporter of the entire trans rights agenda... I just don't think... elite competitive sports... make sense." ([43:03])

11. Free Speech and the Value of Debate

• Laments increasing intolerance for disagreement: “I don't want to live in a world where everyone thinks like me. How boring would that be?” ([46:41])
• Argues that most people are not "bad actors," and genuine debate is beneficial. ([48:17])

12. Parenthood and Changing Perspectives

• Parenthood has taught Gladwell to be flexible and accept changes in perspective, emphasizing that ordinary people (especially parents) change their minds all the time. ([18:44], [50:18])

13. Human Nature and Forgetting

• "You know, the most common way that people change their mind, me included, is that you take a position and then you forget you took that position, and then you take a new position." ([49:46])

14. Future Work and Openness to Change

• Gladwell plugs the new season of his Revisionist History podcast, "The Alabama Murders." ([52:09])
• When asked if he would change his mind if his own children were admitted to Harvard or played football, Gladwell remains open: "If I do change my mind, it shouldn't surprise anyone, right?" ([50:54])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Changing His Mind
  "I do it all the time. If you knew me, you would know...I so consistently change my mind on things that [my wife] sometimes looks at me...because I'll express an opinion and she'll be like, well, you could change your mind tomorrow. And I go, yeah, actually, I might." (Gladwell, [15:58])

• On Expertise and Trust
  "I don't trust people who don't change their mind... The only way I would ever give any expert the benefit of my trust is if I observe them, gather new evidence and alter their preconceived notion." (Gladwell, [17:02])

• On Journalism
  "The world now needs more Leonard Downeys. That's how journalism gets trusted again." (Gladwell, [24:30])

• On Super-Spreaders
  "When you talk about the impact of someone like RFK Jr on anti-vax sentiment in this country, we're talking about, he's a super spreader for the notion and he has a kind of...his messages have the ability to spread in a way that other kind of calmer voices can't spread." (Gladwell, [29:01])

• On Controversies and Social Media Outrage
  "You can't be someone who is involved in the world of ideas and lose sleep over these moments of kind of collective stupidity." (Gladwell, [42:05])

• On Free Speech and Disagreement
  "I don't want to live in a world where everyone thinks like me. How boring would that be?" (Gladwell, [46:41])

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:09] — Gladwell’s background and cultural identity
• [03:20] — Early storytelling in college
• [05:44] — On being different as a family value
• [08:13] — Childhood obsessions and encouragement
• [10:38] — Why Revenge of the Tipping Point was written
• [13:34] — The darker tone of the new book
• [15:58] — Gladwell on changing his mind
• [17:02] — The importance of intellectual flexibility
• [18:44] — Parenthood and being open to change
• [24:30] — Declining trust in journalism and ethics
• [26:59] — The boundaries of social epidemics
• [29:01] — Idea super-spreaders and RFK Jr.
• [31:47] — AI as a counter to misinformation
• [32:26] — How TV’s Holocaust miniseries changed cultural narrative
• [38:41] — Trans athlete controversy clarifications
• [42:05] — Gladwell’s response to online outrage
• [46:41] — The value of disagreement and free speech
• [49:46] — Human nature and forgetting old opinions
• [50:54] — Potential for changing views as a parent
• [52:09] — Upcoming Revisionist History season

Original Tone and Style

Gladwell is candid, witty, self-aware, playful, and earnest—often eager to poke fun at himself and highlight the contradictions and contingencies in political, social, and personal evolution. Nawaz engages him with thoughtful follow-ups and a relaxed, conversational style, leading to moments both humorous and intellectually probing.

Conclusion

This episode is a rich, nuanced exploration of personal and societal change, honestly confronting error, and the challenge of public trust—both in individuals and institutions. Gladwell’s willingness to revisit and revise his positions underscores a theme of humility and adaptability that feels urgent for contemporary discourse, while stories from his life and work add color and insight throughout.