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- [00:01]
Podcast Announcer
The following podcast is a Dear Media production.
- [00:21]
Brittany Xavier
Debbie, welcome to the show.
- [00:23]
Debbie Brown
Thank you. I'm so, so, so happy to be here.
- [00:26]
Brittany Xavier
I'm really happy to have you because you're actually somebody who I've wanted on the show for a really long time. And it was one of those things where I don't know if I ever really, like, pitched you or, like, pushed for it, but I was like, when the time is right, she'll be here.
- [00:40]
Debbie Brown
Yeah.
- [00:40]
Brittany Xavier
It just is like, I knew we would. We would get an episode together when the time is right. And now it's the time.
- [00:45]
Debbie Brown
I feel it. Yeah. Always like, yeah, the alignment. Right. Like, it'll come in no matter what. You don't have to plan for it.
- [00:51]
Brittany Xavier
Exactly. Yeah. And with you having a new book, it was like, the perfect.
- [00:55]
Debbie Brown
Yes.
- [00:56]
Brittany Xavier
Perfect time.
- [00:57]
Debbie Brown
By the way, congratulations on everything. Cause you have been doing this amazing show, just, like, really kind of elevating the wellness space for so long. And I love the way that you are and letting your audience evolve into, like, the new kind of nuanced layers and the elevated, you know, the next steps on what this journey is on. Like, being able to live it. Not just kind of, you know, patch our wounds together, but then how do you now live it once you've done the work?
- [01:26]
Brittany Xavier
I appreciate that so much. I have been in this season of what I've been calling kind of the awkward in between, which I've mentioned on the podcast a little bit, but this kind of messy middle that I think a lot of people kind of gloss over in terms of how they show up publicly, where it's like, you know, you might have your beginning stages where you're just getting started, and then it's like, all of a sudden, someone is super successful in this polished version of themselves. And I feel like I'm in between those two stages, but being honest about it, and it's really messy. I'm curious if you've had seasons that felt like that.
- [02:00]
Debbie Brown
What? So many seasons like that. But it's like, to me, when I'm in those seasons, like, that's where the fun is for me, you know, because I also have an extreme amount of patience. And I think as long as you're not kind of still in the program of longing for and searching for external validation, like, that messy middle to me actually feels like freedom. It's like that's the space that you recalibrate your creativity. You try on some new ways of being. You let yourself become, you know, and once you get, like, a few times of Doing that under your belt, it becomes exciting. You're like, oh, who am I? You know, okay, let's go there again. Let's figure these things out.
- [02:46]
Brittany Xavier
I love that. I love that. That reframe of it. Because I think sometimes when we are in these seasons of uncertainty, we can be kind of clawing to find any sort of solid ground.
- [02:55]
Debbie Brown
Yeah.
- [02:55]
Brittany Xavier
But I think I'm realizing that no.
- [02:57]
Podcast Announcer
Ground is fully solid, and we're always.
- [02:59]
Brittany Xavier
Just kind of floating in one way or another.
- [03:03]
Debbie Brown
Yeah. I think that's a really important way to put it. It never is. You know, And I think we can just like, really lose our creativity and lose the patience for ourselves in becoming when we lock into this societal thing. Right. Like, this idea that it has to be marketable right away, or this idea that, you know, you have to figure out, what is the pivot? What is my pivot? And it's like, when you live in alignment, when you live in purpose, you are always you. The creativity will come and go. Right. The projects will evolve or change form, but what it is that you are and the energy that you carry, the frequency that you have, that's the thing that remains. So I think, like, when that is the piece of you that you're most present with, it's not really even messy. Right. It's like what you're choosing to create is changing form, but you are you.
- [04:04]
Brittany Xavier
You know, that's like, super validating. As I go through this season of coming out on the other side of rebranding and then also choosing to go by my name more as opposed to, like, this other thing, I feel like that's a lesson I'm learning in real time, that I am the niche, not this. This word or this thing that people associate with me, that I can just be me, which is a little scary at times.
- [04:27]
Debbie Brown
I love that so much. And thank you for saying that out loud for everybody, you know, that I think all of us grapple with that. No matter what industry you're in or what it is that, you know, you do in your life or do for work, there is this sense that it always has to be at the finish, you know, and it's like, people get so. I don't know if the word is scared, but everyone kind of rejects this idea of being a beginner, and it's like, why? And I see that in the wellness industry, so, so, so much, especially when it comes to, like, you know, if you're taking on some new modalities, if you're called to teach, or if you're called to be, you know, a hands on healer in some capacity. It's like this idea that you have to position yourself as the expert right away or as the only one that knows or can do. And it's just, it's counterintuitive to the way we are actually meant to come into mastery. You know, you don't often see a lot of people seeking and pursuing mastery of craft anymore. It's just like, what are the optics and how can I pivot so I can capitalize on the latest trend? How do I put my voice to this, how do I put my voice to that? And you know, if that's your calling, that's totally fine, but it's not mine. And I think for a lot of us, you know, I like to settle in to the learning of everything, you know, and it's like when you think about ways that society and civilization existed, you know, prior to the last 30 years, there was, there was so much honor and nobility in being a beginner. Like I remember even in my last career in media, you know, when I was an intern, I wasn't trying to position myself as host of this or star of this. I was so excited to be an intern. Like I was like, I'm the intern, you know, like I was thrilled about it because I knew I was learning. And it kind of gave you this malleability, the flexibility of it, you know, and we just don't give ourselves that space anymore. And it's like, why, what are you trying to prove? What do you need? You know, in what ways are you trying to position. We need those days of, of apprenticeships again, you know, like that slow learning. And then when you do come into expertise, when you do come into mastery, you also have like the self reverence and the dignity and the integrity that should accompany that.
- [06:49]
Brittany Xavier
I really appreciate that you said that because I do think there is so much power in being a student and just soaking up the learnings. And your example of being an intern, something that I remember when I was earlier in my career in corporate spaces and was an intern was like being allowed to be a fly on the wall in certain ways that further along in your career you kind of don't get.
- [07:11]
Debbie Brown
Wow.
- [07:12]
Brittany Xavier
And just being able to soak that up. So as you've made different transitions in your career, starting in media, moving into wellness, moving into spiritual teaching, how has being a student played a role in those transitions?
- [07:23]
Debbie Brown
Oh God, I love to learn. And I know that I don't know how, how that sounds like, you know, I think Sometimes I'm like, does that just sound so silly or corny? But, like, I love learning. Like, my brain craves learning, you know, And I like to experience my life as a meta learner. So anything I'm interested in, I want to try to learn it a few different ways and in a few different styles and give myself the time to learn. Right? Like, I don't have to try to figure things out in a weekend or do a crash course or a master class. It's like study a subject over the next three years, you know, and just kind of see where it takes you. So, yeah, I think just as a student, I'm always really turned on by how much I don't know and how much there is to kind of pursue and observe. And I like to position that with everything. Whatever I'm working on, it's that. And I also am learning so many things I don't need just because it fascinates me.
- [08:31]
Podcast Announcer
Hydration is one of those small but mighty habits that has such a big impact on how we feel. And for me, element is my go to to ensure that I'm properly hydrated. I use it literally every day, whether I'm heading to the gym, sitting down to record, or just trying to keep my energy steady throughout a busy day. It gives me exactly what I need. Sodium, magnesium, and potassium without any of the stuff that I don't need. So there's no sugar, no artificial anything, Just clean, effective hydration. I used to think that I was hydrated because I drank a lot of.
- [09:07]
Brittany Xavier
Water, but I would still feel sluggish.
- [09:10]
Podcast Announcer
Or I would get those random headaches and crashes in the afternoon. And it turns out that I wasn't low on water. I was actually low on electrolytes. Element fixed that. So one stick pack mixed with water and I'm good to go. I'll usually mix it into a big glass of water or my water bottle in the morning, and then I will sip it throughout the day. Now my favorite flavor changes with my mood. Right now I cannot get enough of the grapefruit SA salt, but truly, they're all so good. Like, I recently was in a citrus salt phase.
- [09:41]
Brittany Xavier
I love all of the flavors.
- [09:43]
Podcast Announcer
And now Element is offering you a free sample pack with any purchase. That's eight single serving packets, free with any order. It's a great way to try all the flavors or share with a friend. Just go to drinkelement.com balanced less that'S-R-I-N k l M-N-T.com balancedless this deal is only available through my link, so make sure you check it out. You know that feeling when you're standing in front of your closet thinking, I have nothing to wear, even though it's completely full? Yeah, I know that feeling well. But then I found Nuuly, and it completely changed how I get dressed. Nuuly is a subscription clothing rental service that lets you rent six pieces a month from their massive shared closet. There's thousands of styles, over 400 brands, and some of the cutest pieces I've ever worn. I'm talking free people, a Goldie, Anthropologie, Hill House, all the brands that you usually have to save up for. It's helped me elevate my style without going over budget. And honestly, it just makes getting dressed more fun. I rent pieces for events, trips, date nights, even just casual days when I want to feel a little more pulled together. I also have so many friends who rent from Nuuly as well. And anytime I'm hanging out with a friend and she's wearing something cute, she usually says, I'm renting it on Nuuly. And the best part is there's no commitment. Try it, wear it, send it back. No extra laundry, no buyer's remorse, no stress. I love that I get to experiment with trends without adding clutter to my closet or my credit card bill. And right now, Nuuly is a great value at 98amonth for any six styles. But you can get 28 off your first month of Nuuly when you sign up with the code balanced less. Just go to n U-U-L-Y.com that's Nuuly with two U's and enter the code balanceless to get $28 off your first month. That's n U-U-L-Y.com code balanceless. Newly subscription clothing rental. Change your clothes.
- [11:47]
Brittany Xavier
I love that you said that. And embracing the things that you don't know. Because to me, it ties in really well. When I think about your book Living in Wisdom. When I was younger, I used to think of wisdom as knowing a lot and demonstrating how much you know. And as I get older, I'm realizing that I actually feel more wise when I'm honest about what I don't know. And I think a lot of wisdom for me is like understanding that there's always more to learn. How has that kind of student mentality also tied into how you approach wisdom?
- [12:17]
Debbie Brown
That's so beautiful. And I relate to that really deeply. You know, I think, yeah, that's just so spot on. That is how I see wisdom too. And I know there's so many parables, you know, over the ages that say things along the lines of, you know, the wisest person in the room knows they know nothing, you know, And I think that is, you know, as someone who is led by God in this life, it's. That's really the deeper truth we should all embrace, right? It's like everyone is just trying. I think sometimes to. A lot of it is this day and age. A lot of it is the zeitgeist, right? Like it started kind of with the girl boss era that became very toxic very fast and then moved into this kind of era of false expertise or this era of, you know, selling courses about selling courses, right? And it's like in those spaces, no one is really settling into and getting on the other side of wisdom. It's really just about regurgitating memorization or knowledge the second you get it. And I think what my book really centers on is that wisdom is a devotional practice. It's something that takes time, it takes presence, it takes the willingness to come into neutrality about your story and see sometimes the bigger archetypes or the bigger stories that are being told. And you know, a lot of the stories, the personal stories that I share in this book, I'm like 5 and 10 years and 15 and 20 years removed from them. It wasn't about like, let me rush to tell these stories. I want it to get to the wisdom of the experience before I shared it so that it was useful to others. And I think when we're so focused on sharing things or teaching things that we haven't fully embodied, it's really for the attention of it and sometimes it's for the monetary aspect of it. And I can't knock anybody's hustle. Like we all have to live, but we don't have to position it as expertise or you are the source or you are the only. I think there is so much beauty and letting yourself be removed from what you're teaching and what you're sharing so that it can actually be really useful and helpful to another person and not just self focused and about your, your personal experience.
- [14:39]
Brittany Xavier
That's so good. Something that really came up for me while you were describing that was thinking less like a student in a traditional school where we are, you know, we have like one teacher at the front of the class who is telling us kind of what to do or what the right answers are and more so learning from stories and learning from perspectives. And I Think that's why, like, podcasts like ours, where people come share their authentic stories is so important. Because it's not like, you know, we're telling people to do xyz. You're saying, hey, this was my experience. Take the nuggets that resonate with you and leave what doesn't. And learning how to extract that. And I think from a student perspective, we kind of have to let go of that school mentality where we think someone's going to give us the answer and learn how to extract things. Has that been part of your journey as both a teacher and a student?
- [15:33]
Debbie Brown
My goodness, yeah. And, you know, and I think, and I'm sure so many people listening can resonate with this. Like, I was always a deep, deep feeler my whole life. Highly, highly, highly sensitive child, very intuitive. And I think because of that, I've always loved to learn in the layers and in the nuance of things. So the way I always see everything is kind of like the macro and the micro. And I think that that's just, you know, personally a beautiful way to go about learning and discovery, you know, and kind of always remembering to come back into the state of being the observer. I. Something I think a lot about when it comes to wisdom, too, is like, the ways you can share it, the ways you can teach it. And I think when you are called to the path of teaching, which really comes as you're doing the work, but it settles in as you're coming into the embodiment of the work, right? Like, you're really practicing living it and not just kind of talking about. About what you're learning or talking about how you're healing like you are in flow and in practice with your mastery. You know, a lot of our greatest teachers on this planet all taught through parable. They taught their storytelling. It wasn't, you know, I, I, I. And I've been through this and I've been through that. And that's powerful too, right? Because we need to be able to see sometimes people that look like us or that we relate to that have been through similar things. But, you know, when you think of, you know, the Buddha, when you think of Confucius, when you think of Christ and their teachings, it is so often through broader storytelling so that it really can be applicable in a different way. And I just find that the less personalized one, we take any and everything, the more opportunity there is for our healing, for our growth and advancement, but also for our ability to, like, make, make our wisdom useful and, and practical and tactile. For other people.
- [17:36]
Brittany Xavier
Piggybacking off of that. What are, I guess, good ways that people can apply wisdom in their lives so that they can really feel it happening, feel it moving?
- [17:45]
Debbie Brown
Oh my gosh. It's such a, such a great question because that's the piece that I think so many of us miss. You know, one of my biggest desires in writing this book was to help people get out of the intellectualization phase of learning. So so often when we begin our healing journey, and this is all by design and nothing is wrong with this, but then there's more, is that we amass this certain amount of knowledge. Like especially if you start your journey in like cognitive therapy, right, you're given language which is so powerful at the time. You're given the words for what it is you may have gone through or you're experiencing, you're given the langu for what has happened to you, right? But I've just seen so often most people stop at awareness. So then you have all these people that are equipped with this language and they go into the world and say, well, I act like this because this is what happened to me. Or I went through this, this and this is why I'm. This, this wisdom is when you pull all of that self knowledge and self awareness into your body and you're now in work with what your triggers are, what your biological respons. When we go through anything, it registers and codes in our body. And so then all of our reactions, our personality, our identity is usually shaped around the way those things have affected or impacted us. When you're on a wisdom path, you are at play with the self mastery of noticing in real time those triggers and responses and bringing yourself into a regulated state in the moment, right? Like really coming inside of yourself and noticing the ways that you are interacting and how the information feels inside of you. And I think when you get into practice with that, that's when you're able to live your wisdom. That's when you're able to come into the world as the result of everything that you've healed and not as the process. So it's just really important, you know, on this path and especially as we grow in higher consciousness to not stop at self awareness. It's powerful. It is the first step, it is what we should all be striving for, especially at first. But then there is more and there's an opportunity to actually let yourself live as the version of you you're becoming. And when you get to that place, you talk less about it, you talk less about what your process is. You talk less about the I, I, I, this happened, this happened. This is my response to this. And you just, you live the practices that healed you.
- [20:25]
Brittany Xavier
And that's so hard to do sometimes it's work.
- [20:30]
Debbie Brown
It's not easy. You know, it's like sometimes I'll be talking with people, especially like clients I'm advising, and I'm like, okay, well, let's consider, you know, doing X, Y and Z and, and the response I always get is, that's hard.
- [20:43]
Brittany Xavier
It is, yes.
- [20:44]
Debbie Brown
Yes, it is. It's hard. And that's why so few do it. But if you can kind of build that internal endurance to go for yourself in that way, what's more important that you could be doing in your life, you know, like, what is actually more important than that? You know, I can't really think of.
- [21:02]
Brittany Xavier
Much that is that, that deeper, like, aligned connection.
- [21:06]
Debbie Brown
Yeah. And if you have the opportunity to do that, you know, healing is a privilege. Not everybody will get that chance in this lifetime. Not everyone will get the opportunity, have the support, have the ability to be in practice with healing. To heal takes a lot of practice. And by practice, I mean not just the practices you may be doing at home, like meditation or mindfulness, but I mean also being in the world and in community and being in practice with being the healed version of you for other people. All of that takes work and time. But what is more important, what else are we doing here? Why else are we alive if not to advance in that way?
- [21:48]
Brittany Xavier
Yeah, it's part of what makes us human.
- [21:51]
Debbie Brown
Yeah, yeah, it's the experience, you know, and it's like, I think especially in this day and age where just so many of us are consumed with perception, consumed with how we are showing up, being perceived by others, trying to control that perception. I think it's just that piece that you said is just so important to always lean into, you know, like, none of that actually matters. None of it matters, you know, it really, really doesn't. What is the truth of who you are? You know, not how you're being perceived, not how you want people to take you in. I think, you know, now more than ever, especially in the age of influence online, we have just had so many people for far too long that are pretending to be something they're not. For clicks, for likes, for marketing funnels, for partnerships. And it's damaging and it's hard because you're not able to give someone process because you haven't done it. So then we have all these kind of new waves of people that get stuck at the stage of fake it till you make it right. This masquerading, your life doesn't change with that. You know, you can do all kinds of stuff, you can have all kinds of knowledge, but your life doesn't actually change or transform until you make different choices, until you live out different choices, until you show up in service in situations that allow it to be about more than just you.
- [23:26]
Brittany Xavier
As you've navigated your healing journey, have you had any moments where you felt like, okay, this is a real turning point where I'm beginning to live these practices where you were beginning to drop into your body and what were some of those moments for you?
- [23:38]
Debbie Brown
Gosh, I think we're so gifted with the opportunity to do that, like over and over again. You know, When I think about the beginning of my journey and I've been meditating somewhere in between, I think, like, I don't know what year it is, I don't know what day it is, but probably around 12 years now. And when I think about the beginning of my meditation practice, I used to be so triggered by the fact that I couldn't do it. Like, I saw it in pictures, right? Like with the pristine mudra and like the perfect position with my knees flat against the floor with my spine straight, you know, like, I was withered. When I started meditating, my knees were like a V up in the air, my shoulders were slumped. It was, it was so surprising. And I think it makes you kind of want to give up because it's showing you all the areas that you actually need to disarm, but you don't yet know how. So when I think about what it took to kind of stay in that practice day in and day out, even when I hated it, right? Because like, when you're starting new self care practices, it is not puppies and rainbows, right? Like, it is not this. Like, okay, now I'm gonna drink this and I'm gonna do this. It's kind of like, let's get it done. All right, I hate this sometimes. Or I'm bored, I'm restless, I'm frustrated. Too much emotion is coming up for me. I don't wanna face it. Like, you reckon with yourself. Self care is not fun and games. It is deep work. And with your body requires so much. So I think like one of my favorite things was when I started meditating. It took me a few years to get settled in my practice. It took years for me to like it. I walked into meditation almost every time for the first Two years, just like, ugh, you know, and now when I think about my relationship with my practice, which it's just so nourishing, my relationship with meditation, it's like I crave it. Like, it's so pleasurable for me now. It's kind of like the second I drop in, it's like, ah, there you are. I missed you. Yes. You know, so I think something that's been fun for me to track my growth is to see how I slowly settle into practices. And even now, I'm always looking to take on new things. And, you know, now instead of meeting it with judgment, I just meet it with curiosity. Like, you know, oh, you can't do this yet. Oh, this is frustrating. You, girl, like, I see you. Okay, take a breath, take a breath, take a breath. Settle in. You know, I think the probably the most powerful and loving way that I'm able to track some of my growth and be in the presence of those, like, next level activations is how much care I'm able to give myself without judgment, you know, that I think that has been the most beautiful thing of recognizing where I'm at in my journey. It's like, even, you know, right now, if anybody is watching this instead of listening, I have on a very awkward arm sling. And this ideally is not how I want it to show up on my book tour. Yeah, you know, it feels like a little disempowering. I can't sit the way I want to sit. Like, my clothes aren't, you know, looking the way they look. I want them to look. I had shoulder surgery, but in this surgery, I was able to see how far I've come in my ability to receive. One of the stories I share in the book is an experience I had when I was in this three year certification program and I got really ill and one of the teachers in the program took me to the hospital in the middle of our practicum, and I share how much I learned about how limited I was in my ability to receive love and care from others. And so that I'm many years removed from that story. And so when I had my shoulder surgery and, like, just so much love and care started pouring into my life over the last two weeks. So many flowers, so many friends, sending food, my mom taking incredible loving care of me. And, like, it was really one of the first times I could sit back and be like, no, you can just rest. You can just receive. And being able to see my growth and how natural and easy that feels and how that is the first feeling I get to. As opposed to the kind of triggering and the worrying and the how am I coming across? And no, I got it. I can do it by myself. And so it's just like, yeah, you'll notice where the healing comes in by how much grace and compassion you give yourself at every new juncture of the.
- [28:20]
Brittany Xavier
Journey and how much you allow yourself to receive that.
- [28:25]
Podcast Announcer
Yeah, from other people. So there's been a lot of talk about luxury goods lately, where they come from, if they're real.
- [28:37]
Brittany Xavier
The list goes on.
- [28:39]
Podcast Announcer
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- [32:01]
Brittany Xavier
It also sounds like such a beautiful place to be in, removed from experiencing things like burnout, which I know you've, you've talked about experiencing before. Something that, candidly, I am in a season of right now and am and navigating, and I think it's something that a lot of people can relate to. And I am beginning to see some connections between feeling burned out and having a hard time receiving. Just as like, like some dots I recently connected in my own experience. Were there any kind of small ways that you were able to begin taking steps towards being able to receive, kind of stepping away from like the glorification of busy. What was that like for you?
- [32:42]
Debbie Brown
Oh, my goodness. That was some of the greatest work I've done on myself in my life. Because it's hard. It's just you really confront all the conditioning that you've taken on. And I think when you find yourself at that stage, that burnout stage, if you're open and aware to it, you realize how much you have been looking to earn love, to earn respect, to earn, you know, validation our whole lives. We're trained to do it right, like coming out the womb. We're trained to do these things. We're trained to seek validation, we're trained to seek praise, we're trained to seek, you know, attention and being seen and, and the bigger the better is how world has programmed us. So I think burnout sometimes can be such a powerful, godly invitation to come into the truth of who you are and really the truth of enoughness. I think when I hit that juncture and I put down my badge of busy and I stopped acting like, you know, working 18 hour days was some kind of a, you know, some kind of a badge of honor, I got to those deeper layers of, of, you know, why do you think you have to perform in this way? Where are you performing in your life? Is there space for you to take some things off and become more, you know. So I think burnout is, it's a glorious invitation if you're able to take it. I also want to acknowledge, again, healing is a privilege and for a lot of people, burnout is not a choice. There is not a way to lessen the load that life has given you. I honor that and I pray for people in that position this season that they will have the opportunity for help to come in, that there will be the opportunity to take some things off if anybody resonates with that. And I, you know, sometimes I think of that with myself even now. I remember I, I went recently to work with someone in holistic healing and they're like, you have a lot of stress. You have to take the stress off, you have to release the stress. And I was like, yes. And you know, like, I'm not overburdened by unhealed wounds, right? Like, I'm not overburdened by the stress of carrying emotional weight. I, I shouldn't, it's just the basic burdens of my life. I am a business owner, I'm a single mother. I'm someone that travels a lot. Like, we're all going to have stress that you can't just throw out of the window. It is your life. So it's like if you're in a season where the burdens of your life and the stress of your life, it just is. And it's going to be there for however long it needs to. I really recommend that people come into an affirmation practice or just start kind of posing questions to your life in the universe that you're not seeking solutions of. So something along the lines of like, you know, God, show me where there can be ease. God, show me where my helpers are. God, show me where my champions are. God, please align me with community that makes this load easier to bear and to carry. You don't have to know how that's going to show up in wellness, but asking the question can be really powerful and opening up some space for that. But you know, in that, in that burnout Stage in that messy middle, it really is about saying, you know, can I become more with less? What can I take off? What can I unburden myself from? And where can I give myself space and patience to figure out the next step? Sometimes your self care routine needs six months to be figured out. You know, it's like sometimes you don't fully know what your need is yet, so you're not going to know how to meet it. How can you be tender with yourself anyway? How can you have compassion for yourself anyway? So I think in the burnout phase, you may not find all the tools right away. You most definitely will not find all the answers all the way. But can you meet yourself in that messy middle where with slightly more compassion and patience? Because no matter what, the time is going to pass, you get to choose how that time is going to feel and how much pressure you're going to put yourself under. But it's going to take as long as it takes.
- [36:51]
Brittany Xavier
I mean, I needed to hear that for sure. And something that I'm also learning in this season is how important it is to just kind of let go. Where it's like the things that stress me out, stress everybody out, Some of them are going to be what they are. We can't necessarily control the outcome and just letting it be, letting it be what it is, letting it come and go.
- [37:14]
Debbie Brown
Yeah.
- [37:14]
Brittany Xavier
Which is hard for people who are maybe a little more like Type A, which I probably skew more towards.
- [37:22]
Debbie Brown
I think for everyone that has that experiences, I don't want to call it issues, but for everyone that experiences control as an edge in their life, there is nothing more beneficial that you can do for yourself than to continue to ask your desire to control questions. You know, and again, all of this is natural. No one is wrong for being more type A. No one is wrong for kind of having a desire to control. It's how we know how to take care of ourselves, how we know how to be predictive in our lives, how to stay safe. But if you have the space and the privilege to ask it questions, to regulate yourself, to come into the ability to change based on what you want to see in your life, I think we all owe ourselves that, you know. And again, it doesn't have to be fixed immediately. This is not any work we do on ourselves any way that we are in play with our purpose. It's our life's work. It is okay if it takes your whole life. This is not always about fixing things or finding a solution. In a weekend, in the week, in the Month. You know, this is our soul's curriculum. If we, you know, I, I 100% have had many years, many years struggling with control, struggling with my desire to be the fixer, to be the righteous one in other people's lives. And so that's some of my soul's greatest curriculum, is disarming myself of that need and desire to do that. So every time it comes up, I invite in some questions. Just because I've healed it to a big degree doesn't mean it's going to be my last time with it. That thing is going to keep showing up. So you got to keep meeting it over time with your tools, with your presence, with your regulation, with your practices.
- [39:17]
Brittany Xavier
Letting go of that need to control actually reminds me of a podcast episode that you released earlier this year that I really enjoyed about allowing space for goodness to come in and not trying to be so tied to a specific outcome. I would love to hear maybe what some of the experiences you've had have been where you were able to allow space for goodness to come in and what that was like for you.
- [39:42]
Debbie Brown
Oh, my God. I feel like, oh, that has been, honestly, one of the joys of my life is letting synchronicity come into play. And I think that's the thing that gets missed when we get into that control phase, because, you know, it's. How can you have something you can't fathom, Right? Like, sometimes our goals are so small in the grand scheme of things, and we're trying to plot and plan and execute it perfectly, but God has so much more for us. And so when you release control, the synchronicity of life can. Gets to take hold, right? The miraculous nature of life gets to take hold. If we're trying to find all the ways that we're going to meet someone and get this accomplished and get this deal done, where is there room for God? You know? So a few years ago, I started this practice with myself. Two practices, one of finding and connecting to tiny joys, because that connected me to the ability to really fall in love with the enoughness of my life. Not fall in love with the bigness or the grandeur of my life, but fall in love with how more than enough every single moment is. And I think if so many of us can bring our baseline to enoughness and stop having our baseline as, like, extreme happiness, extreme prosperity, extreme abundance, I'm manifesting all these things. We actually open up so much space for things that we could have never dreamed of to take place. I think that's shown up in my life in so many ways, over and over again. But, you know, I think one of the greatest examples would be when I first learned to meditate. I met it. I learned to meditate at a retreat right around, I want to say this was like somewhere between 2010 and 2012. And it was one of Deepak Chopra's retreats, right? And I remember his face came up. I was burned out. I was going through all these, like, chronic pain issues and, you know, I was looking for help online and his face came up and I was like. And I just had this knowing that something was going to powerfully change in my life because I saw his face. I didn't know what that was. I didn't know what that would be like. And it took. Took many, many years. I went to that first retreat, I learned to meditate, came home with a meditation practice, but my life was still pretty jacked up. It took years to get it all figured out, Started reading more books, started, you know, really investing in my soul. And then this opportunity came to join the teacher training program that he had. And at that time, I was a radio personality and a TV host. I was interviewing rappers, I was talking to, you know, people in entertainment. I had no thought that I would teach. Like, what am I signing up for this year long program for?
- [42:42]
Podcast Announcer
To teach.
- [42:43]
Debbie Brown
Teach where? Teach? Who had no idea what that was going to turn into, did it anyway because God told me to. Then God told me to start a business in wellness and leave my career. Didn't have a plan, didn't know what I was going to do, didn't have some big, I'm going to reinvent myself. I had no idea what I was doing. I just listened to the call. And then flash forward, you know, many Years later, over 10 years from when my journey with Deepak began, I was asked to come and join the C suite at his global wellness company and now bring my work into his work and honor all the teachings, the deep, powerful teachings that I received from his life's work. And so I couldn't have planned any of that. I had. How would I have orchestrated that?
- [43:30]
Brittany Xavier
You even knew it was possible probably.
- [43:31]
Debbie Brown
When you started, no idea it was possible, you know, and I needed so many different life experiences to happen before I could arrive at that position and be the leader that God always designed me to be and help people and serve in the ways that I was always designed to. But it took 10 years of me having no idea that was coming, just continuing to say yes at every opportunity that showed up.
- [43:57]
Brittany Xavier
That Makes me think a lot about kind of the refresh premise of this podcast around she's still lucky. The ways that we create our own luck, which in some parts can be action and also in a lot of parts can be receiving and following the. Yes, as you say, as you were getting those calls, what did it sound like for you? Was it quiet? Was it loud? Was it very clear? Was it ambiguous?
- [44:21]
Debbie Brown
You know, I think in a few ways. One, I will say God speaks to me very clearly with a heard voice. So some of the biggest moments in my life have literally been God saying, go, move. Do this. And I hear it that loudly, sometimes that sternly, and I just go. I just do immediately. And I. You know, and it takes some practice to be that fluid with your intuition, to trust that it takes practice, but practice in small ways, right? Practice sometimes looking for parking and say, like, God, show me universe, show me the parking spot, or show me where, you know, ask for it in a lot of your decision making, in kind of low risk settings, so you learn to trust the bigger risk that you're meant to take. So I do hear it as a voice, but then I'm also very attuned to noticing the whispers of God, the sounds, the signals, the symbols. You know, I think I've. I've had enough challenge and hardship in my life that I now listen to the whisper before it has to turn into, like, catching a fade with life. Before I have to get punched in the face. I'll. I'll hear the tiny whisper and I'll say, okay, I got it, got it, got it. But I think notice the symbols. You know, when. When does synchronicity appear? And when I say synchronicity, I mean, when does the thing happen where you're like, I was just thinking about that, and now this person is standing in front of me. You know, an example of that would be recently I was actually in New York and I was on a plane. There was nothing to watch. And so I ended up watching this show I would never watch. It was about gambling. I would never watch this show. But I was like, all right, let's give it a go. I watch it. I really enjoy the show, and I'm really into the lead actor. Like, he is just doing his thing, and he has this very interesting face. Like, he keeps, like, furrowing his brow, and it's just kind of like. Like it's giving me a little pleasure. Like, it's making me, like, kind of laugh a little bit, and I'm like, oh, my gosh, look at this guy. And this show is actually so good. So funny land in New York. Go in my hotel, leave my hotel, take a walk in Central Park. The second I walk into that park, that actor is walking out of the park holding hands with his two children.
- [46:37]
Brittany Xavier
Oh my goodness.
- [46:37]
Debbie Brown
Burrowing his brow like I Jack just saw on tv. That's synchronicity. I don't quite know what that means. Right. Like I didn't know what that was supposed to be. I wasn't trying to control it. And I remember I ended up seeing Deepak later that day. We were doing an event together. And I go, you won't believe what happened. And he goes, it's a sign. I don't know what sign.
- [47:01]
Brittany Xavier
Yeah.
- [47:02]
Debbie Brown
But it's showing me that there is an energy that's kind of culminating right now. There is this energy that's circling me right now. So it's telling me, keep your eyes open, keep your heart open, keep your hopes open, say yes to more things. Because there is synchronistic flow that's present. So I think when we can slow down enough and get out of our heads and get out of our desire to control, we become these observers of the way magic actually flows in our lives. And when we become an observation of that, then we can be in co creation with that. Then you can take it to the next stage and say, okay, surprise me. God, what's happening right now? What am I meant to know? Wow, there's a lot of good luck that's available to me right now. What should I do with it? What questions should I be asking? God, what should I be working on? Start asking yourself some of those more generalized, kind of like open ended questions and see how life wants to answer and respond.
- [48:11]
Podcast Announcer
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- [49:51]
Brittany Xavier
There'S so many things about what you just shared that I loved. One that story of the synchronicity and just looking for points of connection, looking for through lines or threads that are being woven together. As a former fitness person, a lot of what that also sounds like to me when it comes to listening to the calls and strengthening your intuition is almost like a muscle, like putting in the reps to practice listening for those moments with the small things, the small directions. And as we get better at that, that is when we probably will start hearing calls that feel louder and clearer when we've strengthened that muscle of listening.
- [50:30]
Debbie Brown
Oh my gosh, that is exactly it. It really is something that you do have to invest time in and you know, for anyone that's listening, that feels connected to this idea of, of really growing and harnessing your intuition, make it a true project, journal about it, date and write down the synchronicities that you notice when something goes your way. Make note of it. Create historical proof for yourself so you can begin to really trust that muscle, that ability to grow those gifts. You know, intuition is inherent to all of us, but so many of us really are gifted and don't know it and have the ability to be in communion with God in a different way or in communion with our intuition to help, to do, to be. And I think, you know, we're just, it's knocked out of us at a very young age. You know, it's like for anyone that was that young child that had a knowing that had this deeper truth and then you have all these adults telling you you're wrong or gaslighting you or not wanting to kind of hear this kid with wisdom, you know, it affects you, it makes you silence it. Every time you've gone to give advice to a friend or someone you love and they don't Take you or they brush it off or don't take it seriously or make a joke about suppresses you. It turns that off a little. It makes you want to withhold it. The more you practice saying whether or not anyone else believes it. Let me track the truth, right? Like there are some things, it's so funny the way life will do this. There are some people in my life that I just had a strong intuition or a word to share with them years ago, right? And I didn't know why I was called to say it or share it or adv in that way. And it took 10 years to see if any of that actually happened. And this year I've had several people come to me. Remember that thing you told me 10 years ago? It happened. Remember when you said this, I didn't understand that it happened. And so sometimes life also just has to play out. So whether someone is taking your advice or not, that doesn't matter. You are meant to share. You're meant to notice. You're meant to track these whispers. So build the muscle, be in practice with it. And that helps to hone your ability to believe it the first time. That's where we get stuck and sometimes don't always come into the highest choice of our life because we'll have the clarity and then we'll choose to bypass it, right? Or we'll have the clarity and we'll say, well, but I'm not sure. Let me ask again, let me ask again. The more you practice with it, the more you get those reps up, the more you build your ability to listen and do the first time. And then the faster, you know, the good things can come into your life, the more ease, the more grace starts flowing in. But it does take process, it takes practice, it takes witnessing for sure, for sure.
- [53:26]
Brittany Xavier
Another piece of this that I, I know I've found tricky and I'm sure a lot of people have as well, is also figuring out, okay, where does action fit, fit into this? Like between knowing when to receive, being able to listen to the calls, also knowing when to take action. Because oftentimes, like we do have to move a little bit for things to, to generate. It is sometimes like a dance or like a puzzle fitting those pieces together. How have you navigated kind of shifting between those states? Or do they all work together?
- [53:58]
Debbie Brown
Gosh, I think they do all work together in some regard, I think so. A couple things. I think. One, a thing that could help equ one a little better is we all have our own unique path and we have our Unique magic, right? So for some people, especially for those that are familiar with human design. Right. Some people work better as specific manifestors, which is like say your goal, say your specific goal and write it down. And that's how you kind of call that in. Some people are non specific manifestors, like myself, which is the universe actually doesn't like it when I'm specific. I have to be general. I have to tell the universe, I have to tell God the general theme of what I would like to have in my life. But I can't say, like a small, kind of low, low example of this would be saying that you need new forms of transportation versus saying I want this exact car to drop into my life. So I think it's important one, to get to know yourself a little bit better through certain things, like personality tests, like human design, like astrology. Because not all advice is going to work for you based on your unique design and makeup. But I will say I think it's, I think it really is a little bit of both. I think the more we slow down and hone our intuition and listen, the more we'll know exactly when to act and when to attract. And I think we're always trying to find balance with that. I'm personally someone that life does seem to be in most alignment and flow for me when I work on myself, when I study, when I create and then wait and attract, not pursue for other people. They are built to pursue. And that's how like the blessings come into their lives. I think the more you get to know yourself personally, the more you stop comparing and competing and validating and look for like, how does God use me? Right? Like how do I best work? What is my intended unique design and the way I'm meant to flow with life. The more your unique answers come in and you can kind of be at play with the way you are meant to show up.
- [56:18]
Brittany Xavier
That makes a ton of sense. I also like that example that you gave for the non specific manifestor type. I know, I think with for my human design type, when I've gotten it done, I am a specific manifestor. Okay. And how I've noticed myself getting tripped up is being so hyper focused on the how. Like I can identify the what. And then I get so fixated on the how. And if I don't know exactly how it's gonna happen, then I'm like freaking out. But then somehow it happens. And then that's my big lesson is like, if I identify the what, to not stress so much about the how.
- [56:53]
Debbie Brown
Yeah, which is hard. It's hard. It's a practice. It's a practice. It is a challenge. But you know, even in the hard, I think if I found for myself in my life and for people that I've, I've been able to observe, give it three good times and then it clicks, you know, like, everything is hard. What isn't hard, even when we're crushing it, Life is hard. Like. And that's really what my book is about. Life is about grief and joy happening at the same time, ease and challenge happening at the same time. The wisdom is as old as time. Yin and yang, you know, light and shadow. We are always at play with duality and paradox and being alive. And so, yeah, it's hard. Everything about being alive.
- [57:42]
Brittany Xavier
Yeah.
- [57:43]
Debbie Brown
And the more we're in practice with it, the more we choose to disarm and be in flow and in surrender with the fact that no matter how much we try, we don't control a thing. We never have, we never will. The more you create space for co creation, for magic, for synchronicity, serendipity for purpose.
- [58:07]
Brittany Xavier
And it is really fun when those things happen. When you have that little surprise and delight of something working out better than you expected or receiving something that you didn't know was even possible. Those moments are like, ugh, I wish we savored them more and do that.
- [58:26]
Debbie Brown
You know, like, savor them more. One of my favorite practices is recapitulation, because I think that that teaches us how to really be present with the good. So we're getting as much, if not more out of the good than we get out of the challenge. It's so interesting, I think for me, the way our brains can work sometimes where, where we're more than happy to ruminate on bad things. We're more than happy to exist in this loop and keep repeating over and over the scenario we perceived as having gotten wrong. Right. Or the thing that's challenging. We'll stand in the shower, we'll repeat conversations over and over again, we'll criticize ourselves, but we don't spend that much time remembering and committing the joyful memories to our core, you know, and it's like when we take the time to do that too, I think it stretches our capacity for goodness, which then attracts more things that can come to us through ease and through grace and through goodness.
- [59:31]
Brittany Xavier
It's a practice that I'm always trying to work on. It's like my study. I have a therapist who focuses more on the somatic, which is been so great, but Also so hard because I find myself wanting to do the. Like, describe every feeling and intellectualize everything. And she's like, okay, where do you feel that experience in your body? And I'm like, oh, my body? I know. Cause I'm up here. What do you mean? But she's always trying to remind me to, like, celebrate things. And also when things feel good, where does that feel in my body? And then I also have a coach who's always reminding me to, like, celebrate those accomplishments. I feel like every week when I talk to them, those are the things that they're constantly trying to remind me of, which has been like, maybe my head is just very hard because it's like a lesson that I haven't learned yet. Which reminds me of what you described.
- [60:21]
Debbie Brown
That piece that you're saying, that's the secret. It really is somatic processing. That's the piece that for all of us that have had moments or kind of lifelong intellectualizers, which I myself am absolutely one, I think the feeling before I feel it, it. So some of my life's greatest work on this path has been allowing myself to feel things and to feel them in real time. And I think, you know, if I can say, like, in this moment that you've shared that you're experiencing a little bit of that burnout and messy middle, there's nothing more powerful you could be doing than that somatic work. Because that's the shifter. Like, that's the thing that really creates the pathway for the new joys and the new life and the new brilliance and creativity to really come through.
- [61:11]
Brittany Xavier
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. One of those things that, again, while I'm doing it, it may not come naturally or be, like, the easiest, but is putting in the reps towards the desired future.
- [61:22]
Debbie Brown
Gotta get your reps up. You gotta stay in practice.
- [61:25]
Brittany Xavier
Yeah, yeah, yeah. How does practice look for you in your current season?
- [61:31]
Debbie Brown
I love. I love my practice right now so much. I. I'm coming out of a season of having, like, a very, very, very intense practice. Like, there were things that I was really moving through that required that really all free time was kind of spent in service to my own spirit and my own body. And now I'm coming into a place where I can be a little bit more playful, a little bit more flexible with that practice. But I'll say, like, my favorite things that I do in my practice, meditation is my pillar. All of our brains work differently. So coming into a meditative state, I think is really crucial for people on the journey. But that doesn't Always have to mean seated, silent, still, formal meditation at first. I do hope that everyone gets there, because I think that that that is the way you stay in flow with the continuance of your higher consciousness, expanding. And it creates the kind of grounding in your life that you can take any and everywhere. But getting into a meditative state, which could be having a silent walk or, you know, doing something that gets you a little bit more in flow. It could be painting in silence. Something like that could work too. But I meditate right now, if I can, two hours a day, which would be an hour in the morning, an hour in the evening after my son goes to bed. But if I can't do do two hours, I do an hour of meditation a day, two times a day. Cold plunging has really changed my life. I do cold plunge every morning. That has nourished my brain, honestly, in ways I could have never imagined and, like, really healed my body in ways I could have never imagined. So that has been a beautiful and very challenging medicine to get used to and to kind of stretch my own capacity for discomfort and for breath. Breath. And I have a poetry practice where I read some poetry, usually Rumi or Hafiz, every day for a little bit in devotion. And then I'm really big on slow stretching. My house is very outfitted to be nervous system regulating. So I have amber lighting in every room. So when the sun naturally goes down, I turn those lights on, and that helps to disarm me, Just really nervous, nourish the natural circadian rhythm inside of me and support my sleep. Sleep protocol in practice is huge for me. And then, yeah, as I mentioned, that stretch practice, like, really spending intentional time with my body, seeing what its needs are, trying to meet those needs with my own hands, with my own presence. And that's kind of how my flow is now.
- [64:11]
Brittany Xavier
I'd love to talk more about your stretch practice, because I think stretching is one of those things that most of us don't do enough. And as somebody who has always had kind of limited mobility, I'm learning that being able to, like, move through a certain range of motion is really about safety. It's about, you know, does our body feel safe being able to go through a movement? And if it doesn't, then your muscles are gonna be like, oh, hold up. You're not. Not yet. So I'm curious if your stretch practice has helped kind of cultivate a sense of safety. Cause I feel like when I do that type of movement, that's what it's doing for me.
- [64:46]
Debbie Brown
Totally and you know the thing about a stretch practice, it's feeding the pillar of somatic processing, right? So soma, which is the root word of somatic, it means body. It means to be in your body. So stretch practice, especially for intellectualizers, is one of the most beautiful medicines because it's allowing you to bring all of that down and in. It's also allowing you to cultivate a lot more compassion for whatever restrictions are present in your body. So I'm someone that I've lived with chronic pain since I was a teenager. I have a lot of pain in my body, a lot of restriction in my body. And so having that stretch practice allowed me to fall in love with some of my natural biological barriers, to be present with it, to heal a lot of it, and then to also come into grace and acceptance for the parts that may not transform in this lifetime. And you're also getting the chance to spend really deep quality time with yourself. So if you're already thinking a lot, as I absolutely do and used to do a lot more of, but then you're able to slow down and process, and as you're thinking, you're releasing some of the stress because you're kind of having a long stretch or you are self massaging, doing perhaps some Ayurvedic Abhayanga, the way those experiences and thoughts are landing inside of you, the way you relate to it begins to change really, really radically. So, and you know what? Something that I think is worth mentioning as well, all of this takes time, and it can potentially bring up a lot of. A lot of emotion. When I first started meditating, one of the natural things that I thought to do was start a yoga practice, right? Like, it's kind of the first two things you do when you're on the path of mindfulness, right? Meditate, do yoga. When I started trying to do yoga years ago, it angered me so much. I felt so reactive to it. I resented it. I would be in a class with a teacher and be projecting so many frustrations onto the teacher or onto other students that, that were in these poses perfectly or had, you know, these really kind of svelte or active bodies or, you know, had different ways that they could move doing the posture the first time, and I couldn't do any of that. But the more I studied, you know, wisdom, tradition, and really the yogic lens through Vedic philosophy, you realize that it. It is actually meant to confront you in that way. Because the deeper you can sit in a yoga posture, the belief is that you are eradicating trauma from your body, and you're able to track your progress in your healing and in your growth through some of your flexibility or through some of your ability to get into and out of a posture with more ease. And so I couldn't start with yoga. It was far too confronting for me on all the things that my body couldn't do. But when I started with a stretch practice and I began to loosen in that way and build endurance and fortitude and care and compassion for myself in that way, it unlocked my body. And then years later, I was able to come in and have a really beautiful yoga practice that I cherish personally, have a Pilates practice, be more present with my body. And that is the game changer. Nothing changes if you are in a body that you reject.
- [68:25]
Brittany Xavier
That's a word, a big word. Especially because our bodies are our homes. That's where we are having this human experience with. And so if we're at war with it, it's really hard to have any. Any peace otherwise.
- [68:38]
Debbie Brown
Yeah, beautifully said. Because we're here for all of it. And that's why we have to always approach everything in life through the holistic lens, which is mental, emotional, physical, and spiritual. That is the core of what our human experience is. The human experience is mental experience, that internal process, emotional experience, our physicality, our human biology, and our soul work, our spirituality. So if we reject any of those kind of four compartments of what makes our experience human, we're really robbing ourselves and we're, you know, we're leaving this planet perhaps without getting all the experience and all the practice we were intended to.
- [69:27]
Brittany Xavier
Just like such a powerful reminder as we wind things down. Debbie, thank you so much for being here. Can you please let our audience know how they can keep in touch with you, where they can find the book, and what's next for you?
- [69:40]
Debbie Brown
Yes, thank you so much for having me. It is an honor to be on this show and just thank you for all the work that you share with the world and especially with women everywhere, because it's changing lives and it's so needed. It's so needed. So thank you, everyone. You can hopefully engage with me in all the ways that you feel called I am on IG Just Debbie Brown. Search me in all the places, Debbie Brown. For my website. You can connect with some of my meditations. I have a podcast called Deeply. Well, you can connect with that show again. Debibrown.com and my book Living in Wisdom is available everywhere that you receive your books or will be April 22. So Barnes and Noble Amazon. I also recorded the audio for it so audible all the places and I hope to hear from you. I hope that this book is a companion for your journey, one that you can trust, one that you can spend time with over the years and refer back to over and over and over again.
- [70:42]
Brittany Xavier
Thank you so much and I'll make sure we have all of your information in the book linked in the show notes so it's super easy for people to find and engage. Thank you again for being here.
- [70:51]
Debbie Brown
Thank you.
- [71:08]
Anthony Xavier
Hey there. I'm Brittany Xavier and I'm Anthony Xavier and this is the Long Game. I'm Brittany, a mom of three and content creator package passionate about wellness and living life to the fullest. And this is my husband Anthony, who's been my partner in life and everything we do.
- [71:22]
Brittany Xavier
If you're looking for inspiration to live intentionally, nurture meaningful relationships and embrace a lifestyle that promotes well being, you've come to the right place.
- [71:30]
Anthony Xavier
Each week we'll bring you conversations with experts in health, wellness and personal development. We'll also be sharing our own stories like how we navigate the ups and downs of family life and our journey towards a more mindful, fulfilling lifestyle.
- [71:41]
Brittany Xavier
Expect some fun, fun, laughter and honest moments from us along the way.
- [71:45]
Anthony Xavier
New episodes will be released every Thursday and you can find us wherever you listen to podcasts.
- [71:50]
Debbie Brown
Please note that this episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to in this episode.