Creating Connection in a Digital World: Shan Boodram on Friendship, Modern Love and Algorithmic Attachment

Summary

Podcast Summary: She’s So Lucky
Episode: Creating Connection in a Digital World: Shan Boodram on Friendship, Modern Love, and Algorithmic Attachment
Host: Lesley (Les) Alfred
Guest: Shan Boodram Brady
Date: October 7, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Les Alfred welcomes back intimacy educator and bestselling author Shan Boodram Brady. They explore the challenges of forming and sustaining meaningful relationships in a digitally connected yet emotionally fragmented world. The conversation dives deeply into modern friendship, changing attachment styles—especially what Shan terms "algorithmic attachment"—and the ways expectations from both society and technology shape our connections, dating, and sense of belonging. The tone is warm, reflective, and honest, full of relatable stories and actionable wisdom.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Pioneering in the Creator Space & Embracing “Old”

• Resilience and Longevity: Both Les and Shan reflect on the pressures of being long-standing creators. Shan jokes about being “old” but reframes it as being a pioneer, embracing mentorship and wisdom for younger generations.
  • “I think being a pioneer, being an OG, being old and being an old person that young people can look up to is something that, interestingly, I think that I've always started in the big sister role…” (Shan, 01:00)
• Importance of Mentorship: Shan stresses the significance of lifting up those coming after you and providing the support she wished she’d received in her twenties.
  • “I remember how impactful it was to have an older person in this space look at me and say, 'You can do this.'” (Shan, 03:08)

Redefining Milestones, Growth, and Friendship in Adulthood

• Letting Go of Age Milestones: Les candidly discusses her experience turning 36 and releasing the pressure of societal milestones, focusing instead on enjoying life as it comes.

  • “It's just my age is my age. Am I going to enjoy my life or am I going to not? I just choose to enjoy it.” (Les, 04:38)

• Building Friendship as an Adult: Shan opens up about the challenges and sadness of realizing she lacked close friends outside family, and her intentional efforts to nurture meaningful friendships later in life.

  • “I recognized two years ago. Like, I did not have one person other than my sister and my husband who I could just call… It would have to be, like, a reason, like a birthday or a moment…” (Shan, 08:04)

The Role of Inconvenience in True Connection

• Effort and Welcoming Inconvenience: Genuine friendships require effort and stepping into inconvenience—doing the hard, unglamorous things for each other.
  • “You have to welcome inconvenience, you have to crave inconvenience...that's where genuine connections are made, like in inconvenience.” (Shan, 08:53)
• Combatting “Algorithmic Attachment”: Shan introduces her theory of a new attachment style shaped by technology, where convenience and efficiency dictate how and when we connect.
  • "I think there's a new attachment style called algorithmic, in which people essentially love and make connections like machines... If it's convenient, I do it. If it pleases me, I invest in it. If I'm uninterested…I don't engage, and then it goes away." (Shan, 09:32)

Digital Life, Algorithms, and Modern Loneliness

• Pandemic’s Effect on Connection: Les and Shan discuss how the pandemic further ingrained algorithmic patterns in our relationships—technology became the main conduit for connection and left a lasting impact.

  • “For a few years, algorithms were the only ways we could connect. So I also wonder if there's an element of that when it comes to algorithmic attachment…” (Les, 10:37)

• The Trap of Digital Efficiency: Shan asserts that, in a competitive, hyper-productive world, we shouldn’t attempt to “out-tech” the machines. Our irreplaceable value is in being human.

  • “The more that you try to compete with technology and AI in terms of efficiency and productivity and speed, the less that you're actually going to be useful in society because you're never going to win.” (Shan, 11:01)

• The Joy and Power in Mutual Inconvenience:

  • “Close relationships definitely are built on the backbone of inconvenience.” (Shan, 13:27)
  • Memorable Moment: Shan shares how the small, inconvenient tasks—helping each other with groceries, dealing with daily messes—become sources of connection and even attraction in her marriage.
    • “One of the sexiest things about my husband is if the kids vomit everywhere... and your partner... get up and then they go to it.” (Shan, 14:23)

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The “Coffee-Date-Gate” Debate, Viral Algorithms, and Meaning-Making

Hot Takes Go Viral: Why Do Algorithms Stir Us Up?

• Rage Baiting and Engagement: Shan explains that algorithms prioritize content that triggers emotional responses (especially outrage), because controversy equals engagement.
  • “If it bleeds, it leads.” (Shan, 20:33)
• The Psychology Behind Viral Debates: Humans are wired to be hyper-social; negativity was once adaptive for survival—now, it’s just more clickable.
  • “So many of us, we come from a long lineage of super negative people, so we thank our ancestors for that. But now that we're not in such dangerous times, it's annoying.” (Shan, 23:38)

Coffee-Date Discourse & Dating Efficiency

• Les and Shan both discuss their personal (lack of) experience with “coffee dates” as a dating tactic.
  • Les: “I don't like treating people like they're a number and I don't like being treated like I'm a number.” (Les, 27:34)
• Efficient vs. Slow-Burn Dating: Shan notes that the skillset required for quick, efficient (“algorithmic”) dating isn’t common, and people often need time and repeated exposure (proximity) to reveal their best selves and form meaningful connections.
  • “Very few people have developed the skill set in order to actually shine in that environment.” (Shan, 31:46)
• Pace of Connection: Les points out the social demand for everything—including relationships—to happen at “2x speed,” and questions whether that's healthy or satisfying.
  • “Is there a really low tolerance for investing any amount of time?... How efficient do we need everything to be? Do we need everything to be on 2x all the time?” (Les, 31:41)

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Individuality, Authenticity & Unconditional Regard in Relationships

• Beware One-size-fits-all Advice: Shan emphasizes that mass advice and statistics are useful for general understanding but useless when it comes to forming actual one-on-one relationships.
  • “Your job is to get to know one person. It actually doesn't matter if statistically 70% of people who accept a coffee date end up having low self-esteem... because your job is to figure out what is this person like?” (Shan, 35:10)
• Being Seen for Who You Are: Shan shares a raw story about the deep comfort of being truly known by her partner, even when she doesn’t fit the conventional “mom” mold.
  • “My partner actually made a Mother's Day video for me... I watched it, and it was just so me, like, that's the kind of mom I am... The individuality of it, the paying attention to my humanity was just so profoundly beautiful to me.” (Shan, 36:27)
• Mask-Free Intimacy is the Goal: Les agrees, saying the ability to show up as your whole, authentic self should be the aim of all intimate relationships.
  • “Do you want to be a part of something where you feel like you're wearing a mask... or do you want to be able to show up in your full humanity?” (Les, 37:55)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the new paradigm of digital love:
  • “Algorithmic attachment says, if it's convenient, I do it. If it pleases me, I invest in it. If I'm uninterested, then I don't engage.” (Shan, 09:38)
• On the necessity of inconvenience:
  • “Close relationships definitely are built on the backbone of inconvenience.” (Shan, 13:27)
  • “The shortcut [to connection] is proximity and saturation... Like the toxic 17 hours a day [at American Apparel].” (Shan & Les, 48:17)
• On letting go of efficiency and assumptions:
  • “We can't optimize things like that [family conversations and connection].” (Les, 48:47)
• On what relationships are worth investing in:
  • “My list is always the same three things: fair trade, mutual advancement, and unconditional positive regard... Unconditional positive regard means that I'm not auditioning you... I'm accepting, I'm embracing, I'm witnessing you, and that kind of relationship...is worth the inconvenience.” (Shan, 51:57 – 56:01)
• On rare, transformative love:
  • “When you are with somebody who's not looking for [your flaws], who can acknowledge when you do something shitty, but genuinely sees you as a good person... like, if you have that in somebody, keep that relationship.” (Shan, 57:13)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:00] – Shan on aging, pioneering, and mentoring in the creator space
• [04:24] – Lesley on turning 36 and surrendering age-based milestones
• [08:53] – Shan introduces "algorithmic attachment" and explains the challenge of making intentional adult friendships
• [13:27] – The backbone of friendship and marriage: embracing inconvenience
• [20:33] – Shan on rage, algorithms, and why viral internet topics trigger us
• [27:34] – Lesley’s take on coffee dates and why she rejects the “numbers game” in dating
• [35:10] – Shan on why individual connection outweighs generalizations and stats
• [36:27] – Shan’s emotional story of feeling truly seen as a mother
• [51:57] – Shan’s three-part framework for worthwhile relationships: fair trade, mutual advancement, unconditional positive regard
• [57:13] – On cherishing relationships where you are truly seen and accepted

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Closing Thoughts

Les and Shan weave a powerful conversation about countering the isolating, efficiency-driven tendencies of both modern life and the digital world through intentional, sometimes inconvenient, and always authentic acts of connection. They challenge one-size-fits-all dating and friendship advice, urging listeners to embrace the messiness, slow moments, and uniqueness of building real relationships—whether romantic, platonic, or familial.

Summary by ChatGPT, Podcast Summarizer | October 2025

Transcript

[Podcast Announcer]

The following podcast is a Dear Media production.

[Lesley]

Welcome back to she's so Lucky. My name is Les. I'm your host. This is the show all about creating our own luck. And I'm very excited to actually welcome back a special guest today who I had back on the show when I first started, like a million years ago.

[Shan Boodram Brady]

Stop making me sound old.

[Lesley]

No, I make myself look at your face sound old.

[Shan Boodram Brady]

Where, you know, it was definitely a.

[Lesley]

Long time ago, my very early days of podcasting. But I am so excited to welcome Shan Boodram Brady back to the podcast.

[Shan Boodram Brady]

Oh, wow. You put the Brady in there.

[Lesley]

Yeah.

[Shan Boodram Brady]

What's up? Last? Good to see you.

[Lesley]

It's good to see you too. It's exciting to do this in person.

[Shan Boodram Brady]

Yes, it is. Congratulations on all the continued success on the resilience. You have been a great inspiration to me as a podcaster. You're so good at what you do, and it's just amazing. I just think in general, when I first started into the creator space, I had a conversation with an accountant who basically was like, hey, let's we're gonna work backwards. Cause you have about two years to have a career, so you wanna be able to save and plan for that long term. And whenever I see people who have been doing anything for longer than two years, I'm like, we made it.

[Lesley]

We did.

[Shan Boodram Brady]

We're still here. I remind myself of that often. Just to even still be here is such a gift. To still have people's attention and time is such a gift. To still get invitations like this is such a gift. Yeah.

[Lesley]

That's beautiful. Thank you. And such a big compliment coming from you. I feel like, as a creator and as someone who I've followed for most of your creator journey, seeing the different ways that you have pivoted and dedicated yourself to education and learning and continuing to meet the moment is super inspiring to me.

[Shan Boodram Brady]

Yeah, thank you for that. We got to stay in this. We really do. While making space. You know, I think I was joking with you about the old word, but that is a word that I champion. Know. I think being a pioneer, being an og, being old and being an old person that young people can look up to is something that, interestingly, I think that I've always started in the big sister role, so I. I was never like the young. The young girl on the scene. I've always been the little, like the older one. And now transitioning that to being somebody who, especially in the sex and relationship space, you know, creates opportunities and pathways and mentorship series so that the Younger generation, you know, can have their say. I think has, has been a nice pivot for me.

[Lesley]

Yeah, I've felt very similarly where I have really enjoyed getting to share more so from places of wisdom and experience or even from getting to sit down and interview so many cool people where it may not even be experiences that I've had, but being able to share conversations and bits of other people's wisdom has been really rewarding. And getting to share that with a younger audience.

[Shan Boodram Brady]

Yeah, because especially if you've been this for a long time. Like when I was in my 20s, I met a lot of people in their 40s who were competing with me or who were sort of like safeguarding their information. And it could be for a number of reasons. Maybe they didn't believe in you, they didn't see it, they didn't have the capacity, you didn't ask in the right way. So I'm not automatically going to like those old buzzards. But a part of you does feel like, damn, like aren't the older generations supposed to have our back? You know, aren't they supposed and be our, you know, our back? Literally, like that phrase is so important. Like not the front, like be behind me, supporting me, pushing me, scaffolding me. And so I remind myself of my 20 year old self. That's the benefit of being something for so long of. You know, my first book came out when I was 24 years old. So I remember what it's like to just get started. I remember what it's like to not have resources. I remember how impactful it was to have an older person in this space look at me and say, you can do this.

[Lesley]

Yeah, exactly, exactly.

[Shan Boodram Brady]

I mean, mind you, you're still 20, so.

[Lesley]

I gotta be girl, I wish, I wish. But I actually, I recently turned 36 and yeah.

[Shan Boodram Brady]

Oh my goodness, congrats. I love 36.

[Lesley]

I have actually felt so good. And last year I was really freaking out about turning 35. There was something about 30. Well, there's a lot I not like that came out of nowhere because 35 for women we're often told a lot of things, that it's a turning point, your fertility is going away, you're drying up. All of that was in my head and I felt very much away about it. And this year I didn't feel fearful at all. I was actually really looking forward to it and have felt really good like mentally and physically and it's just something that I'm super grateful for.

[Shan Boodram Brady]

Yeah, 36 is a great year. It's like A nice time, you kind of know yourself a little bit more.

[Lesley]

Yeah. And I almost feel this sense of kind of surrender to not holding myself to certain milestones by certain ages anymore and not fighting it.

[Shan Boodram Brady]

Huge.

[Lesley]

It's just my age is my age. It is what it is. Am I going to enjoy my life or am I going to not? I just choose to enjoy it.

[Shan Boodram Brady]

I do think that there's some argument to, like, what the general recipe is for the gumbo, which makes up a good life. Right? Like, being connected to community, being connected to the youth. And I don't mean necessarily like having your own kids, but taking up responsibility for the younger generation, supporting, helping, scaffolding, nurturing. I think that that is a big part of feeling good about your life. Feeling like you have friendships and communities, feeling seen as an individual, like, you know yourself, feeling like you're a positive contributor in this world, that you're being seen for your gifts. Like, all of those things, I think kind of generally make up the gumbo. People may have some other things in there, like bungee jumping, like, some shit that I don't do that they're like, I need this for things to feel like it's making sense. I'm like, go off. But I don't think you have to collect all those things in a certain order. Like, for me, I'm really working on friendships now, and that's been a huge gap for me and a sad gap for me. And so I'm like, you know, at a certain age where many people already have their established friends group, and I'm kind of trying to collect this now. Even in community activism, that's not something I grew up necessarily, like, focusing on. So, like, now I'm trying to figure out, like, well, how do I contribute to the larger world? So some people have done those things from age 10. Just think there's different times and phases for different components. And as long as you're continuing to grow in a way that's meaningful for you, like, yeah, who's to say? Like, who's doing things in the right time? Right.

[Lesley]

Yeah, absolutely. And I appreciate you sharing that Friendships and building friendships is something that you're focused on right now. Because I think for some people, there can be this sense of, oh, I was supposed to have made my best friends when I was this age or in college or whatever, and if I didn't, then it's just, it's too late, or it's this or it's that. And I really think that we can build community at any time. And I actually feel like some of the friendships that I have that truly feel the most, like, nourishing and rewarding are the ones that I've made over the past few years. Because I think when we're able to do that as adults, we can be more intentional. It's about shared values versus when we're younger. It's about proximity.

[Shan Boodram Brady]

Yeah, proximity helps.

[Podcast Announcer]

Yeah.

[Shan Boodram Brady]

Like, that's the hard thing I think now about friendships is that I even flirted with moving, which we talked about moving for a second, but I'm like, maybe move to Puerto Rico. I kind of just get, you know, somewhere where I'm at the same beach every Sunday. I'm at the same grocery store every Tuesday. Like, proximity creates opportunities for connection. And if you live in our very isolated, capitalistic. Everybody has their own blender, their own lawnmower. Like, we all have our. There's no reason for me to go my neighbor's house. Right. Like, we all have our own, like, birthday cake. What's it called? Those holders? It's like, why use that, like, once a year? Why isn't there, like, a community version of that? So there's some kind of reliance. But we don't. So proximity, definitely. I don't take that for granted like that. I watched a documentary about American Eagle, American Apparel, and it was basically just talking about how, like, everybody in American Apparel is either fucking best friends or going to each other's Thanksgiving. And it's because they worked in this very toxic work environment, which forced them to be around each other for, like, 17 hours a day. But that obviously afford them the opportunity to genuinely get close to people.

[Lesley]

Yeah.

[Shan Boodram Brady]

So I'm like, why do I make my own American Apparel without people are forced to hang out with me all the time? So we can, like, speed this friendship thing up. So that doesn't exist. So it takes a little bit longer in your adult years, but I've definitely seen some strides. Like, I recognized two years ago. Like, I did not have one person other than my sister and my husband who I could just call to be like, hey, how are you? What's going on? It would have to be, like, a reason, like a birthday or a moment, like, a specific functional reason. Otherwise, they'd be like, I'm fine. Do you need something?

[Lesley]

Is everything okay? Yeah, yeah.

[Shan Boodram Brady]

I'm in the middle of something. Sorry, what's your last name again? And so I was like, okay, this is not cool. So I knew from that point on, I had to start making more concerted adjustments. And so, you know, two Years later, I've definitely seen progress. Do I have a girls trip coming up? No. But maybe two years from now, like, yeah.

[Lesley]

And what's been helpful for you in that if someone, if someone listening is maybe in the same season or struggling with the same thing, what's helped you?

[Shan Boodram Brady]

Effort and inviting inconvenience. You have to welcome inconvenience, you have to crave inconvenience. The, like, this is not the right time, but, oh, you want me to pick you up from the airport? Oh, my God. I kind of have something else to do. Like, that's where genuine connections are made, like in inconvenience. And when we think about the time that we're in now where convenience is high premium and we're always trying to save time, that's a big ask for a lot of people. I have this, like, hypothesis now that we know attachment styles, no one's anxious, avoidant, or secure. I think that there's like a new attachment style called algorithmic, in which people essentially love and make connections like machines, because we learn our attachment styles from our caregivers and a lot of people were brought up on technology. So an algorithmic attachment says, if it's convenient, I do it. If it pleases me, I invest in it. If I'm uninterested, then I don't engage, and then it goes away and it has to re spark my attention and come back into my world in order for me to pay it attention. If it's asking too much for me and not providing enough back in return, then I discard it. Having awkward conversations, being asked to do things I don't want to do, like having a friend tell me a boring story, or, you know, kind of investing in someone's interests that don't align with mine. All of those are ways that I'm combating algorithmic attachments. And I see a benefit in the kinds of connections that I'm able to create. And that's kind of radical in 2025.

[Lesley]

It is, yeah. And it can be really difficult to do. I think that that point about algorithmic attachment style is really interesting. And as you were describing that, I was also thinking about the effect of the pandemic, where for a few years.

[Shan Boodram Brady]

Tell me more.

[Lesley]

For a few years, algorithms were the only ways we could connect. When we couldn't get FaceTime with people, we spent so much more time on social media, on our screens, that was the only way we could connect with one another. So I also wonder if there's an element of that when it comes to algorithmic attachment style that was also impacted.

[Shan Boodram Brady]

Yeah, 100%. And even like, do you ever notice sometimes that your closeness in relationships is there's a relationship between how often you're even seeing somebody in your algorithm? Like you could actually genuinely like somebody and want a connection with them, but the algorithm decides that they're not showing you to that person anymore. Maybe you didn't like their past three things and all of a sudden you just genuinely forget that they exist. So I think that all of those things, and that is pandemic related cause you had no other opportunities. And again, with the loss of proximity, the loss of community, everything has to be so intentional. And it's a lot. It, don't get me wrong, it's a very big amount of like mental load that it takes to keep track of all these relationships independently without any natural excuse. And so it's almost if any more natural to be sort of more discerning in nature in terms of connections. But I think when we have a lot of fear around like being replaced by AI, and the only way that we're going to win this battle and that you are actually more indispensable than an omnipotent machine is by being more human. So the more that you try to compete with technology and AI in terms of efficiency and productivity and speed, the less that you're actually going to be useful in society because you're never going to win.

[Lesley]

Yeah, it's a losing battle.

[Shan Boodram Brady]

You can't. Yeah, you can only win by being more human.

[Lesley]

Well, also, while you were describing leaning into inconvenience, I also think that that's a really important point because I know I have felt very afraid of inconveniencing people and feeling almost like connecting with people is inconveniencing them, reaching out is inconveniencing them. Wanting to catch up or all of these things are inconveniencing them. And recently I had an experience that like rewired my brain chemistry and it was something so small. But I had plans to meet up with a few friends for brunch. This was maybe like a month or two ago and I needed help shooting some content. So I texted one of my friends who I was going to be meeting.

[Podcast Announcer]

Up with for brunch and I was.

[Lesley]

Like, hey, would you be able to meet up like 30 minutes before we go to brunch and could you help me shoot some content? Like, I, I just, I need help and like my tripod's not going to do it.

[Shan Boodram Brady]

Look at your face right now.

[Lesley]

I know. I was, like, so scared. And her response was, oh, my gosh, I would love to thank you so much for asking me to help you. And I was like. I almost cried because I was like, oh, my gosh, I'm not an inconvenience to somebody. And it was like a moment where it's okay. It's okay to reach out to people. It's okay to ask for help. It's not always a burden.

[Shan Boodram Brady]

Yeah, that's so wonderful. I can really imagine how good that would feel. It's also okay to acknowledge that it is a burden. And that's okay because, hey, that's what human connection's about. Close relationships definitely are built on the backbone of inconvenience. I think, like, even in my marriage, something I value about the connection that we share is the, like, okay, like that. Like, we have that. Like, can you help me with the groceries? Okay, I'm out of toilet paper. Okay. Like, the willingness to do the inconvenient thing, even though it stops you from what you're doing and knowing that you have a partner who's willing to drop what it is that they have going on to make your life a little bit simpler, and it makes you want to do that in return. Like, one of the sexiest things about my husband is if the kids vomit everywhere, shit everywhere. And, you know, there's, like, a sound. Yours. There's a sound that you make of exasperation when it's like, this is a clusterfuck of mess. Like, oh, my God. Like, when you hear that, like, Jesus. Like, and your partner doesn't pretend that they had their AirPods in or they couldn't hear you, or they were on the phone. They get up and then they go to it.

[Lesley]

That element of teamwork. Yeah, yeah. Having a good teammate and being a good teammate.

[Shan Boodram Brady]

But sometimes I think we associate teamwork. Like, I think my brain goes to the soccer team, and I'm on a breakaway, and I'm about to score a goal, and then I look to my left, and my teammate Sarah's like, let's pass the ball. I'm like, cool. And then we kick and score. We're like, yeah, this is amazing. But, like, what about teamwork? That's like, hey, let's shovel this together genuinely. And you could do it by yourself, but I don't want you to.

[Podcast Announcer]

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[Lesley]

Something that I am actually really interested to talk to you about. And actually I love that you introduced the term algorithmic attachment style here and I promise by the end of this episode I will be able to say it. I feel like I'm still tripping over the words. I would actually love to talk to you about why things in our algorithm tend to trigger us so much. Because in my algorithms I get served a lot of content where there will be a hot topic at the time, where it's some sort of debate that people feel really up in arms about. And when I zoom out and when I look at it, I'm like, this topic is actually not that big of a deal yet. It's such a big conversation starter that gets people really activated. So most recent example, at least in my algorithm, would be like coffee date gate of like the debates over should someone have a coffee date or not? And that happened when a TikTok user, her name is Ashley, Ashley with an I posted a video on TikTok a few weeks ago talking about how this man asked her on a date to get coffee. She doesn't like coffee dates, she declined it and she opted to hang out by herself instead. And so she posted a video describing all of that and the algorithm then started pushing out this content of people having all of these debates over. Is it good? Is it bad? If you accept it, do you have low standards? If you don't, do you have high standards? What does this mean? People attacking her appearance, all of these things. And as I looked at that and as I looked at the conversations that people were having, I'm like, what is the big deal? Why are we attaching so much meaning to something that is, I think, a preference? If you like coffee dates, go on one. If you don't, don't. But the algorithm will catch a hold of something and then it will explode into this really big topic. We see this happen every few months where we'll have a hot topic that will pop off of something that to me seems like not that big of a deal, but people catch hold of it and run with it. And so I'm curious from your perspective as somebody who studies these things, an Expert in these things. Why do you think these topics get so triggering for people?

[Shan Boodram Brady]

Ooh, if it bleeds, it leads. And that obviously is more so speaking to just rage baiting. But in general, anything that gets the amygdala activated requires action, right? So when that part of our brain is fired up, action ensues, and action equals engagement. And algorithms are based on engagement, and so they're going to prioritize the things that engage. I think it's fascinating even, too. Like, I had to stop myself from this pattern that I would do, where I would go and look at a post and then go to read the comments, and usually the negative comment has moved to the top of late. Start doing something where if I see that, I'll then kind of scroll down to see, okay, is that the actual majority? Like, is that a representation of the average feeling that's being had here? Or is that just interestingly what is consistently pushed to the top? And most of the time, again, if it bleeds, it leads. If it's cantankerous, if it starts discussion, if it starts debate, if it gets people fired up, then that's what's gonna be put first, even if that's not necessarily, like, the average person's experience. I also think that we're in such an interesting time of forcing everybody to be on a soapbox, forcing everybody to be content creators, to be news producers. And I think about that even when I go to a concert like you, it sucks. We can't even enjoy it anymore. You're like, well, gotta clock in. You know, my. My aunt gotta document what kind of seat that I got, and my friends and family are depending on me to get the right angle. I had to make sure I get the right song. Like, we all have to constantly take on these roles and jobs that we just weren't necessarily designed to need to do. And why would you not? On the flip side, like, being a content creator is the number one thing that people desire to be when they grow up. Far surpassed, you know, doctor, lawyer, singer, anything people want to be. YouTubers, content creators, podcasters. And why would you not? It's amazing. I love my job. You know, like, a big facet of my job is entertainment component. Getting to be myself for a living. Like what? Like getting paid for my opinion. Getting paid to research the things I care about and then share that information. Why would you not want to do that? It's lit, but also it. There is a huge, heavy load that comes with that. There is a lot of mental care that comes that a Lot of competition that comes with that, but everybody's kind of thrust into that, so I feel like empathy for it. And yeah, we were all just kind of constantly looking for something that's going to get people engaged in talking because that makes us feel relevant from an evolutionary standpoint. Like, humans don't run the fastest, we don't jump the highest, we don't climb the best. Like our superpower, you know, cheetahs are the fastest animal on the planet. We are the most pro social animal on the planet. Our ability to work together, to share information, to be cooperative is what sets us apart from all of the prey out there and all the predators out there. So, of course, like, your brain is going to put heavy emphasis on how popular you can be, how successfully social you can be. We all come from a long lineage of negative, and that's logical, right? If you are back in the hunter gatherer days and I'm optimistic and you're negative. If we see a stick on the path and I'm like, ooh, stick or ooh, what's that, like, straight thing? Let me walk towards it and see. And you're like, that's a snake. And then I walk closer, I'm like, no, less, that's a stick, that's fine. And then that happens five times. But the sixth time, you're actually right, it was a snake and I was wrong. It's not a stick, it's actually a snake. By the time I realized that, because I walked closer, I got bit and I'm dead. So enough of that happened over time to where a negative perception, a negative bias, ends up correlating positively with adaptability, with survival. So many of us, we come from a long lineage of super negative people, so we thank our ancestors for that. But now that we're not in such dangerous times, it's annoying. I have a niece, actually, who's in her teens. Like, she's like 14 years old. And I had to tell her that recently that I'm like, I know you think that being negative or critical or pointing out the bad in things is what makes you edgy, but it actually makes you so basic, you act to go through another layer to see the logic in something, the beauty in something, the balance of something, the good of it, the function of it. So I think that that's just an undertaking that we all have to like, mentally take on and something that we should be taught and we're not, right? So it makes kind of sense that people are oversaturated with sort of negative content. And feel like they have to put a negative spin on things that to your point, aren't negative but that to be said, I have to ask the question, where do you stand on Coffeegate?

[Lesley]

Where do I stand on coffee date? I will say I have not been asked on many coffee dates. So it's not something that I feel like I've experienced a ton of. I think it's happened to me one time where someone asked me on a coffee date which he used that specific language and then canceled before we ever could without really an explanation. Before we ended up meeting up. Didn't hear from him for three months and then he reached out asking again to take me on a coffee date and I was like, no, thank you. So that's the closest I've ever gotten. But it was more so about just like the lack of communication. Why are you going to disappear for three months? I've already moved on so I don't know if I have a super strong opinion because I haven't had a lot of experience with it. It's a type of dating that is different than what I personally like to do. I think oftentimes when people are pro coffee date it's because they are dating very efficiently. It's like they're probably using an app, they're connecting with a lot of people, they don't want to waste a lot of time. They're trying to, you know, meet and connect with as many people as possible in a short amount of time and get in and out. That's not how I personally like to date. So it just hasn't been something that I've come up against super often.

[Shan Boodram Brady]

I love that explanation. That's perfectly said. And I think that efficient dating strategy is something that I would have endorsed before. I think when I was single I did endorse that even to that point. I have a community online and it's essentially people who are fanatics about love like me that I get to nerd out and share articles. I'm reading or teach classes and do one to one work with some of the people there. And I'm so grateful for that because I actually think that the way people interact with me probably mirrors the way they would interact with a mate that they are interested in or they really feel like there's like a high stake in that mate. And a lot of people I'll be like, this person's weird. As my first interaction with them is like very strange. And it's over a prolonged amount of time that I'm like oh, like so and so's actually cool. Oh. Like I'm seeing like a thread of that person's intelligence or expertise or their magic that just wasn't obvious to me in that first exchange because of how high the stakes were. And a lot of people aren't able to perform their best, you know, when they're in fight or flight. So I actually really side with your strategy of like allowing things to breathe and giving them a bit more time. Like, if you're going to do it, why not give it a fair shot?

[Lesley]

Yeah. And I think different things work for different people because I also have friends who are very proud, efficient. It's a numbers game, coffee date, you know, all these things. And that has worked for them. And I had to learn through trial and error. Like, I'm very introverted. It takes me a little while to warm up to people and to feel more comfortable opening up and talking a little bit more. And I just do so much better being around people who I have a little bit of familiarity with people who I've met in person or through friends or maybe that I met at the gym, who I've had exposure to. And then letting things warm up over time. And when I release that pressure of needing to, like, do the super, you know, efficient numbers game, I just don't even like that. I don't like treating people like they're a number and I don't like being treated like I'm a number. And when I opted out of that, I just had such more like positive feelings about the whole experience.

[Shan Boodram Brady]

I love that. What a great self knowing. I'm actually really curious now. I think about it, to think about. I think at the end of the day, I was gonna say you and I, but obviously not you. But I think I'm suited for the coffee date because of the work that I do. And in that I'm expected to show up places and perform in a very short amount of time. I'm expected to meet somebody and be able to leave a lasting impression because that's the nature of our work. Oh, this is so and so. Oh, hi, how you doing? Like, here's my resume, here's my star power, here's my moment. Like, you were expected to kind of like push that part of you and through repetition of doing that, you get better at doing that thing. Most people do not develop that skill or don't need that skill. Who is the coffee date for? For? Right? Like who? What personality type? My first impression of my husband though, was not positive. Like he was. I mean, I had A long period of time. I met him in person and I was like, oh my gosh. And then I followed him online for a year and got to see him. But our first meetup when we actually connected was not positive, not negative, but I was like this guy kind of dumb. And if it wasn't for the fact that I had already like, you know, built up a tolerance to say like, let's see this through and we live five minutes walking distance proximity again being such a key indicator, within three months or three weeks of us kind of hanging out, I had to travel. And I'm like, this is going to sound kind of weird, but can you water my plants when I'm gone? Because you live so close and so like those opportunities to deepen intimacy just because I was not trying to discard them as fast as possible. If I was, I would never be where we are today, which is my dream come true, bar none. So I am curious when I think about that of like, let's hypothesize together, who does benefit from coffee date? Like what do you, what, what conditions would make coffee date, like the ideal way to try to find the love of your life?

[Podcast Announcer]

Yeah.

[Lesley]

I don't know if people who benefit from it or strongly for it are necessarily looking for the love of their life, are they? How do you discern that so quickly?

[Shan Boodram Brady]

You're right. Yeah.

[Lesley]

Maybe they're looking for something else.

[Shan Boodram Brady]

Yeah, yeah, you could be looking for something else. But even then, like any of the major things worth acquiring out of human connection, which are like the ability to be witnessed by somebody else, it's like seeing somebody else see me and accept me. So you could be looking for that which you know, is friendship, sexual access, which is having the ability. Sex is a place that you go to be completely authentic. It's a place of freedom. And so how am I going to gauge that in a short span of time and other than if I'm just trying to see if there's like sexual sort of connection there. But the daytime element of the coffee ness and like the non sexy environment. I've never been at a coffee shop and been like, oh, this place, this place got me juicing.

[Lesley]

But then I also think, and this also I think ties into algorithms. And one of my other pet peeves is like everybody needing everything on 2x speed or you know, the amount of times I'll see a person post a video where I think it's a pretty normal video in terms of how they're speaking in the pace. And you go to the Comments. And everyone's like, you talk too slow because it's not 2x. Is there a really low tolerance for investing any amount of time? Anything more than like a 20 to 30 minute coffee chat is too much time. How efficient do we need everything to be? Do we need everything to be on 2x all the time?

[Shan Boodram Brady]

You're spitting right now.

[Lesley]

I don't know. Just questions I have.

[Shan Boodram Brady]

You better clip that.

[Lesley]

I don't know.

[Shan Boodram Brady]

Yeah, that was good.

[Lesley]

I don't have any answers. These are just.

[Shan Boodram Brady]

Yeah. Because the function, I guess, of a coffee date traditionally is we have a loose working relationship and we want to tap in with each other to get some FaceTime, to get some human connection, and then we'll continue our relationship. It's kind of on the slow burn that it is. So it's almost like a bridge to something that's a bit more formally baked. Whereas if you're using it as a way to see if there's any purpose or reason of getting to know each other further. I mean, it's a lot of pressure in a very short amount of time. Yeah, it doesn't. Very few people have developed the skill set in order to actually shine in that environment. And I kind of feel that way just even in podcasting. So I always like to do pre calls with people before my podcast because I have a very specific format, I have a specific intention with my podcast. So I like a pre call because I'm like, let's get on the same page. And a lot of people are so resistant to that because they're like, I don't want any more my time wasted. Like, I don't. I don't have 10 minutes. I'm extremely busy. And I'm this and I'm that. I'm like, okay, well, you're going to set aside an hour of your time, probably an hour transit, an hour back. If you're saying yes to it, do it well. Take the extra 5 minutes or 10 minutes to actually do it well and make it worth your while. Because if you're going into it, and that's the interesting thing, you know, sometimes when we lead with what we don't want, we actually end up getting that thing right. Like when we lead with I don't want my time wasted. And then you go in with, I don't want my time wasted energy, show me why you're not a waste of my time. The other person freezes under that pressure. It's an awkward exchange. I leave there not feeling fulfilled. You leave there feeling like, I didn't get to be myself. It was a waste of time. So I think that you have to often kind of consider all those factors of what is the cost of this inconvenience, extra inconvenience, and what is the possible gain. And if it's too high, like maybe assess if you really could even do coffee.

[Lesley]

Yeah. Could that be a phone call?

[Shan Boodram Brady]

Yeah.

[Lesley]

Be a FaceTime.

[Shan Boodram Brady]

Right. And even then, what's the point of that? Yeah, what's the point of that? Like what are you, what are you hoping to get out of that?

[Lesley]

I also get curious too with these types of conversations. And what I noticed, at least in the, in the content around Coffee date gate was this assumption of meaning or this assignment of meaning to things where a lot of the conversations I was seeing were if you accept that kind of date, you have no standards and your low effort and you know, your standards for yourself are very low. And if you accept a different type of date, then you have high standards and you're high quality and high value and all of these things. And I feel like those are very wild assumptions to make about strangers. It's assigning a lot of meaning that is not necessarily true. But again, just adds this kind of icky pressure to things. And I think sometimes there can be these rules that many people have as preferences that we try to apply as hard and fast rules that apply to everybody that I just, I don't know, I hate it.

[Shan Boodram Brady]

My job is to assess large groups of people, identify behaviors, create patterns, to give mass amounts of advice, to give generalizations like that's the work that I have to do as an intimate connector. Your job is to get to know one person. It actually doesn't matter if statistically 70% of people who accept a coffee date end up having low self esteem and being really super clingy partners. Because your job is to figure out what is this person like?

[Lesley]

Right.

[Shan Boodram Brady]

And so coming in with the assumption of 70% still doesn't even answer the question of who, where does this person lie? So you have to go through the discovery regardless. It's just not valuable. Whenever I hear people have these conversations or men do this, women do this, old people do the young people do this. Okay, what is the person that you're trying to fuck do exactly? You can't get around having to ask those questions. You simply can't. I was interesting actually with the David justice and Halle Berry thing of I love. There's few things in life that are as satisfying as this. The word assume. And when you assume, you make an Ass out of you and me.

[Lesley]

Spells it right out for you.

[Shan Boodram Brady]

Spells it out for you. Like, you made all of these assumptions around what a wife is supposed to be like and didn't check before we got married. If that's who I was.

[Lesley]

Yeah.

[Shan Boodram Brady]

You're like, well, my mom did this, and I saw this growing up, and this is part of the culture that I was raised in, so I just assumed why.

[Lesley]

But is that the person you married?

[Shan Boodram Brady]

Right. How much time are we trying to save where we're just too busy to ask. What domestic skills do you feel like you want to be responsible for, given your schedule and your priorities, your bandwidth and my bandwidth? What does mothering look like to you? How do you reflect those values? Because we're all motherly. We're all nurturing. It's what capacity. I'm a very different mother than a lot of other mothers. And so I've had a hard time with it, actually, of feeling like I'm not motherly because it doesn't show up for me in the same way that I've traditionally seen it. And I, like, my partner, actually made a Mother's Day video for me, and I didn't watch it for, like, three months because I was so afraid that I would watch it and it would say all these things that I know that I'm not, right? Like, kind of these Hallmark things of what. It's making me emotional. It's like Hallmark things of what a mom is supposed to be that I just, like, don't feel like I'm that. And I watched it, and it was just so me, like, that's the kind of mom I am. Like, you didn't just choose me and then force it to make it work and kind of blindly stable. This is the woman I picked. This is the mom I picked. So I'll just pretend that she is. These things, it was like genuinely being chosen and accepted. Like, the individuality of it, the. The paying attention to my humanity was just so profoundly beautiful to me. And I just don't think a lot of us do that. And if we did do that, then we'd be able to save ourselves so much heartache. So, like, yeah, I just think to your point, we just don't actually require all of these stats. Like, I know we live in the time now of statistics and generalizations and groupings.

[Lesley]

I love the example you just gave about that video. And I think that it's really beautiful to be seen and loved for exactly who you are. And I'm like, isn't that. Isn't that the goal? Because really, when we think about intimacy, relationships, partnership, like, the quality of that really in a lot of ways influences the quality of your life. And so do you want to be a part of something where you feel like you're wearing a mask, where you feel like you're just a part of someone's to do list, where they're checking a box by having you there, or do you want to be able to show up in your full humanity? Even though that definitely changes over time, because we all change and evolve, I think that when we apply these arbitrary rules or even worry too much about, you know, the comments or the standards or whatever of strangers on the Internet, where does that give us space to show up as we are? I don't know it.

[Shan Boodram Brady]

Yeah, I don't know it. I don't know. I think, again, like this, I mean, we really are having a lovely full circle conversation here, just around sort of the algorithmic nature in which we are attempting to form connections and then turning around and wondering why we feel more lonely and then criticizing people who are having these AI relationships, right? Like, well, what's the difference between you and AI, except it's a little bit more efficient, a little speedier, and make sure to start every conversation with verbal affirmation baked into it, you know, like, it took me actually a while. I wasn't on ChatGPT for six months and I came back to it, and, girl, it was a drug. At first, I literally came up with so many, like, because everything that I would type, it was like, shan, stop right now. Have you told people about this? This is genius. I'm like, it's not that smart. No, no, this is genius. This is go. Yeah, it'll gas you up, like, and it makes you feel so seen and alive and like, I don't know, kind of that unique component of it. So, yeah, of course you're gonna lose the battle to that, right? If you're, if you're trying to be better at that, at that game. But I think the kind of messiness, imperfectness, the curiosity, the misunderstanding, because even through misunderstanding is an opportunity to redefine yourself, right? Because if somebody, if I ask you, where'd you get that shirt from? And I make an assumption, and then now you have to, like, really think about where you got like, no, no, no, it's not from Zara. I know that because I was actually in Italy. I walked by the store, I walked by, and then you remember the feelings of why you felt that way. And through misunderstanding, you actually get more deeper, richer context and meaning and opportunity to explore so that messness of human interaction actually benefits us. And so we have to lean into that as a part of what makes relationships fun.

[Podcast Announcer]

Today's episode is brought to you by Bumble, the Go to Dating app for finding Love. So I have two friends who are amazing, amazing grounded women who both happen to be in the happiest, healthiest relationships I have ever seen. And do you know what their relationships have in common? They both met their husbands on Bumble. And they don't have just any husbands. They have kind, supportive, emotionally intelligent partners. But here's the thing. It wasn't because they were just mindlessly scrolling through profiles while on the app. It was Bumble's whole approach that made the difference. Bumble really guides you through the dating process. It's not just here's a profile.

[Lesley]

Good luck.

[Podcast Announcer]

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[Lesley]

I guess that need to look for context and for meaning. Is that why people try to cling to this idea of rules or Like a right way of doing something versus a wrong way of doing something. Or even earlier, when you gave that example of viewing comments differently and not seeing the ones that are at the top. I think sometimes, and I know I'm guilty of this, almost going to comments to tell me how should I feel about this? What are other people saying about this? Is this good? Is this bad? You know, if I see a post maybe has more likes on it, then I might stop and pay attention because I'm like, oh, other people saw value in this, so maybe I will too, instead of just looking at it from a neutral lens and deciding for myself. I think sometimes we. We just try to look for meaning in things to try to connect those dots for us.

[Shan Boodram Brady]

Yeah. And that comes from a need for efficiency. We're cognitive misers. We want to make assumptions. Right. Majority of the world is an assumption of what your brain thinks is supposed to be there. And sometimes you make assumptions and look, you're like, oh, that's actually not what I thought it was going to be at all. I think we're all kind of shocked to realize if I asked you what color was the building that you drive by every single day, you really don't know. You might think that you do because your brain is making these assumptions to fill in the blanks of it, but you don't actually pay attention. That takes energy to stop and to register something. It takes a lot of mental energy. And we're so overstimulated, not just in general as humans, but in our world like this. There's so much information overload, there's so much people overload, and it almost makes you freeze up and want to do nothing at all. So I understand why we're trying to. Rather than take the time to figure out, how do I feel, I'll just quickly go and it'll tell me how to feel and then I can move on to the next post because my brain wants to be productive and I have to get to the next thing. I started actually unfollowing certain pages where I found the community was very negative. Even if I liked the content. I found that the community was very cantankerous and negative and put a negative spin on things. And I was like, that was entering my psyche. But I could have just chosen not to read the comments at all. Like, why does it have to be a part? Why do I need to validate other people's feelings in order to form my own opinion? So thank you for that because I think that might be something that I'll challenge myself to do next.

[Lesley]

Yeah, same. Honestly. And I think we also try to apply these things to connection, kind of to the point we were talking about earlier about that kind of efficiency, numbers game piece. And I'm realizing I don't think that there is a shortcut to connection. I really don't. In my. My big age.

[Shan Boodram Brady]

No.

[Lesley]

Whether it's friendships, whether it's the other things, even with family, like, there really is no shortcut.

[Shan Boodram Brady]

The shortcut is proximity and saturation.

[Lesley]

Yeah. Repetition.

[Shan Boodram Brady]

But it's American Apparel.

[Lesley]

Like the toxic 17 hours a day.

[Shan Boodram Brady]

That's it.

[Lesley]

But even the things where I think about, okay, how do I feel like, closer to people? It was like, last night I called my parents and I had kind of a difficult conversation with them because they were upset with me over some things, and I felt it was being a little passive aggressive. And I'm like, let's just talk about it. If you feel like there's something that you wanted me to do, I need you to tell me, not give me some moral test that I don't know I'm failing until it's clear that you're upset with me, you know? And like, that was a really difficult conversation, but by the end of it, I actually felt a lot closer to them by being willing to have that difficult conversation. And so it's like those connection points. We can't optimize things like that.

[Shan Boodram Brady]

I mean, I guess you could optimize it in terms of strategies and tools, like knowing that your first feeling is not necessarily the best feeling, the most logical feeling, having strategies for, okay, well, we have these two different odds and sides. How do we actually meet in the middle? Even just things like, at the end of this conversation, I want to feel closer, setting that intention. So there are like, those things do help. Right. Like, but you can't avoid the time, you can't afford. Avoid the actual work of it. So I think that there's like, a middle ground that I exists because I know for sure. Having more knowledge on how relationships work and how people work does help me be more efficient, but doesn't change the fact that I actually have to, like, then do the thing. Yeah. Being able to intellectualize it doesn't save me any extra steps. I still have to make the phone call. I still have to get a phone call from my friend while I'm in the middle of work and be like. Like, I knew I had a problem because I had a friend who came over to shoot something. And I use the word friend loosely because even there Was a while where I was like, if I can't work with somebody, I'm not going to be friends with them. Like, I have to have my friendship serve a second purpose. This got to be productive and optimized and efficient. That's even a pretty nutty thing to say. I don't feel that way anymore. But I had somebody who I worked with, who I enjoyed being with come over, and then afterwards they stayed for lunch, and I was, like, pissed on the inside. Like, this wasn't the time that I allotted. Like, this wasn't the arrangement that I had. I have other things to get to. And I checked myself and then let myself be in the moment. And I can't really tell you what else I did that week. Like, for all the things I thought were so important and so necessary, and the thing that stands out to me the most was the inconvenience of spending time with someone during work hours that I had other things that had to get done. So I think having some of those realizations and recognizing that allows you to start to want to change the patterns in yourself.

[Lesley]

Yeah. As we're thinking through, I love this theme of inconvenience that has come up throughout the conversation. And I'm trying to think about how I want to word this. It's not how do we tell what's worth the inconvenience? Because that's still feels more almost transactional than I'm getting at. But sometimes inconvenience, it is almost like an investment into a connection that you have with people. And sometimes it can also be hard to discern, like, what's worth exploring and making that investment in. Not even necessarily from, am I getting a return or am I getting something out of this? But is this a connection that I want to strengthen? I think sometimes that discernment, I know I've struggled with it with friendships, dating, whatever. Being able to discern that and looking back on it, like, oh, I maybe invested more into this than I should have, or, oh, maybe I didn't invest enough into this as I should have. Have you experienced that? And how have you navigated those types of instances?

[Shan Boodram Brady]

Yeah, I'll try to answer this efficient way. But when I think about the three basic criteria, you know, everybody has their list of what a romantic partner or a lover or friend, family member has to have in order to, like, be worth their time. And my list is just always the same three things, which is fair trade, mutual advancement, and unconditional positive regard. And fair trade doesn't necessarily mean my five for Your five. It can mean these flowers are just getting a starring role in this episode. Right. So it could be like my flowers for you taking pictures of me afterwards. Like, I feel good about the exchange that we have. Mutual advancement essentially means what makes humans unique is that we want to expand and grow. So any other mammal, if it has all of its basic needs met. Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Food, shelter, water, belonging, physiological needs are met, safety is met. Then that animal chills. Humans are like, cool, Everything is done. What can I make? Right? Like, a dog who has been fed and walked will lay in the sun and chill. A human will be like, how can I turn my bed into a weapon? Right? Like, we're just. And that's even indicative of the iPhone, which I always bring up the iPhone, because, like, you cannot ask for a more perfect product than that or any smartphone. Like, it's actually insane. I don't even understand it.

[Lesley]

Yeah.

[Shan Boodram Brady]

This is a slim piece of technology that you can do everything.

[Lesley]

Literally everything.

[Shan Boodram Brady]

Literally everything.

[Lesley]

It's replaced so many things that we used to use and. Yeah.

[Shan Boodram Brady]

And that has to get updated like twice a year.

[Lesley]

Yeah.

[Shan Boodram Brady]

So, like, that's the human condition. So it's called the self expansion theory, in which that humans are drawn to expand. They want to become the best that they possibly can be. They want to achieve their human potential. And so acknowledging that we all want to expand, but sometimes in unique ways. So our relationships are opportunities for achievement. And so a relationship in which you feel like you're expanding in a way that is meaningful for you is a relationship that's worth investing in. Sometimes that expansion can be resources, access to communities. Sometimes that expansion can be patience. Sometimes that expansion can be in serving others. Right. So that symbiotic relationship has to exist. But defining meaning is a very individual, case by case scenario. And then unconditional positive regard. I just cannot speak to this enough. I know we talk a lot about unconditional love in our world. I think that in family relationships, unconditional love has a very meaningful place. There's a word, it's called ubuntu, and it's an African word. I'm like. I think it's. Starts with a Z, the country of it. But in essence it means, like, care for other because they are right. So when family, we just. I care for you because you are. You don't have to do anything. You don't have to be anything. I feel an obligation, which is not a bad thing, but I feel an obligatory drive to make sure that you're Good at my own expense, at my own inconvenience. So there are certain relationships that don't require, like, they are just about love. You don't have to like your grandma. You don't have to like your parents. You may not have to like your. Your cousin. You don't even like your kid. Right. You may not even like yourself. But you will take care and you will love yourself. I do think that a lot of relationships get the benefit of prioritizing. Like, and you should. Right. Like, I've been in romantic relationships before where I really loved that person. I didn't like that, you know, and that could have been the way that I was being treated or all the above. But I also didn't acknowledge at the time what a disservice I was doing, what a poison I was to that person by staying in their orbit, even though I genuinely didn't like them. And so unconditional positive regard means that I'm not auditioning you. I'm not auditioning your humanity. I'm not auditioning your worthiness. I'm accepting. I'm embracing. I'm witnessing you and, like, that kind of relationship where you get that, that is worth the inconvenience, that is worth keeping, that is worth pouring into.

[Lesley]

Mm. Oh, my gosh. That is so. I feel like I'm gonna rewind this portion of the episode and, like, take notes and really dissect that, because that was, like, really actually profound. I had not thought about my relationships in that way.

[Shan Boodram Brady]

Have you ever experienced genuine, unconditional positive regard before? And if so, tell the tale?

[Lesley]

I don't know if I have outside of family. I don't know if I have outside of family, honestly. And I think that that probably has been a struggle of knowing that it was lacking and not knowing what to do with that feeling. Yeah. Feeling like I am positively regarded for my usefulness, but not for who I.

[Podcast Announcer]

Am as a person.

[Shan Boodram Brady]

Yes.

[Lesley]

Has been a very common theme in a lot of my relationships and friendships.

[Shan Boodram Brady]

Or people are always trying to see, like, what's underneath, you know, like, the. I always think it's interesting when couples get into fights, and, you know, you say the worst things when you're in fight or flight. Amygdala hijacking. Literally, like, your brain is taken over by this monster. And then people will say, well, that's how you really have felt this whole time. That's who you really are.

[Lesley]

Yeah. Why?

[Shan Boodram Brady]

Yeah, that's who I am 2% of the time. And that's what you're weighting my character on. But that idea that we're always looking for the shittiness in somebody, the underlying undercurrent. Shittiness. When you were with somebody who's not looking for that, who can acknowledge when you do something shitty, but genuinely sees you as a good person. Like, my God, like, if you have that in somebody, keep that relationship.

[Lesley]

Yeah. Like, those things are moments, but it's not an indication of your entire character. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Shan, this was so good. Thank you so much for being here.

[Shan Boodram Brady]

Oh, thanks for having me. We had a blast together.

[Lesley]

We had such a good conversation.

[Shan Boodram Brady]

We did great teamwork, too.

[Lesley]

We did. We really worked together.

[Shan Boodram Brady]

Yeah.

[Lesley]

This conversation. Thank you so much. Please remind the audience where they can find you, where they can listen to your great show and how they can keep in touch with you.

[Shan Boodram Brady]

So I have a website called loversbyshan.com there you can find an AI that's trained specifically on my work. And the way that I think about. I think what makes my take on intimacy unique is that I don't necessarily have a morality clause. Like, I don't look at things through right or wrong. I look at things through, like, an individuality perspective. And I like to study, I like to hypothesize. And so if you kind of enjoy that way of thinking, I think it works. If you have kind of more of a rigid take on what love has to look like and what it should and shouldn't be, I think you're not going to enjoy me very much. So I just love people who love love and love talking and dissecting it and embracing all parts of it. Right. The good and the bad. Because it all equals and it's all there for a reason on the site. You also have access to my newsletter and then I have free quizzes and free worksheets and then also there's information on my community where you can do weekly classes and so much more with me.

[Podcast Announcer]

Amazing. We'll make sure we link all of that in the description.

[Lesley]

Thank you all so much for tuning into this week's episode. If you enjoyed it, please make sure that you leave a five star rating in review because we are five star girlies here at she's so Lucky. And make sure you're subscribed on Apple.

[Podcast Announcer]

So Spotify or YouTube. Thank you again for tuning in and I'll see you next week. Thank you for tuning in to this week's episode of she's so Lucky. If you're ready to create your own luck, hit that subscribe button wherever you get your podcasts or on YouTube so you don't miss an episode and head to the show. Notes for resources, links and discount codes. And if you are really feeling lucky, we would appreciate your rating and your review.

[Lesley]

It really helps us be able to improve the show, to get great guests.

[Podcast Announcer]

And to understand what you want to hear more of. Thank you for tuning in and I'll see you next week.

[Lesley]

Hi guys, I'm Emma. I'm Julie.

[Shan Boodram Brady]

And I'm Isabel.

[Lesley]

And we're the minds behind comments by Celebs. You may be familiar with our Instagram account, but what you may not know is that we also we also host a podcast where three times a week we talk all things pop culture, Bravo and Kardashians.

[Shan Boodram Brady]

If you've ever felt alone in your.

[Lesley]

Niche, interest or desire to be informed.

[Shan Boodram Brady]

On all things celebrity, just know we are your girls.

[Lesley]

So make sure to check out comments by celebs on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Please note that this episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to in this episode.