← She's So Lucky
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- [00:01]
Podcast Announcer
The following podcast is a Dear Media production.
- [00:12]
Les (Host)
Welcome back to she's so Lucky. My name is Les. I'm your host and I appreciate you tuning in, whether you're listening or watching. In today's episode, I'm joined by Sandrine Charles. Sandrine is a powerhouse in the fashion PR space. She's basically the Olivia Pope of fashion. She's the founder of Sandrine Charles Consulting, a boutique communications and consulting agency that's focused on championing emerging brands rooted in fashion, lifestyle, accessories, and most importantly, culture. And she is also the co founder of the Black and Fashion Council. Now that it's September, summer is winding down, Fashion Week is almost here. It's a time when I think a lot about style and fashion. But style is so much more than what we wear. It's truly culture and self expression. Russian Sandrine and I talk about her experiences in the fashion industry, what it's been like building an agency from the ground up, and of course, why fashion is so important for the culture. As we head into fall, this episode will leave you feeling motivated and inspired to go for what you want and look good while doing it. So please join me in welcoming Sandrine to the show.
- [01:27]
Interviewer
Sandrine, welcome to the show.
- [01:28]
Sandrine Charles
Thank you.
- [01:29]
Interviewer
I'm super excited to have you.
- [01:31]
Sandrine Charles
I'm so happy to support.
- [01:32]
Interviewer
Thank you. We met last year.
- [01:34]
Sandrine Charles
Yes.
- [01:35]
Interviewer
Through Cammie.
- [01:36]
Sandrine Charles
We were on the ground for Mamala.
- [01:39]
Les (Host)
We were.
- [01:40]
Sandrine Charles
Yes.
- [01:40]
Interviewer
We were phone banking for Big Sister General.
- [01:43]
Sandrine Charles
Yes.
- [01:43]
Interviewer
Doing our best.
- [01:44]
Sandrine Charles
Doing our best. And we, you know, our best was given.
- [01:48]
Interviewer
It was unfortunately did not go in our favor. But I'm glad that it helped us cross paths.
- [01:53]
Sandrine Charles
Yes, it was great. Thank you, Cammie.
- [01:55]
Interviewer
Yeah, thanks. We love Cammie.
- [01:57]
Sandrine Charles
Yes.
- [01:57]
Interviewer
She's been on the show. We love Kami. So the question that I love to start off with is asking my guests about a moment that they felt lucky. And this could be a moment where you created your own luck or a moment where something felt like it's just all lining up in your favor.
- [02:14]
Sandrine Charles
Is this work or personal or could be anything. I guess it could be the intersect of like starting my business. I felt lucky because there weren't a lot of people running their own shop at that time. I was coming off of back to back launches for really fun brands and projects and I was leaving my agency cause I was a little burnt out, but I was there for an extra month cause I wanted them to properly replace me. And some editor friends were like, why don't you do your own thing? Like we'll make sure you get clients and I'm like, yeah, that would actually be the only way I would do it. Because coming off of, like, being there on Saturdays and doing new biz, I wanted some ease. And it just really came naturally. And then it continued to come naturally, and I'm like, really thankful and lucky that people thought and considered me. And it became the foundation of our way of operating. Now it's really 95% referral, so that's good.
- [03:13]
Interviewer
I think that sounds like such a testament to. Of building great relationships, which I know is at the core of the work that you do. It's central being in pr. I would love to go back a little bit about earlier in your career and how you began working in pr, how you began working in fashion, and what the seed was that planted for you.
- [03:37]
Sandrine Charles
I started interning in PR after I went to a concert with my godmother. I was like, how do the girls know everyone's name? Like, what is going on? That seems like an easy job. She's like, oh, it's public relations. And I was at St. John's and they didn't have a PR major, so I. I just transferred to professional studies. Which gave you marketing, advertising, a little bit of pr sales. And I did four internships undergrad. I wanted to learn everything. I started primarily in entertainment because that's what I saw. And then I pivoted to fashion because I forgot where I was interning. I was at 5W and it was a little bit of everything. And I was like, oh, I really like the fashion stuff that we get to touch. And then I bopped around for a bit and then landed back at big agency, working on, like, fashion lifestyle collaborations. And then they pivoted me into the fashion sector, which before leaving, I got to really launch kith there. And I did some work with Noah that kind of transcended into my very small time in between time before I went eventually to a larger agency and I was able to work on really cool projects like Stone island and launching Ivy Park. And I was like, oh, this is, you know, great. And it really came with ease, but I really invested time. Like, when I pivoted back from entertainment to fashion, I was there late. I was learning, I was building list. I was trying to get as acclimated as possible so that I could work on the things that I was excited about.
- [05:07]
Interviewer
I love that last piece that you said about some of the things that you were doing, and I think I'm sure, kind of sacrificing at that time to get to where you wanted to be. A mistake that I made early in my career was I was doing stuff like that, but it wasn't for a specific why, and I wasn't doing the right things to get to where I wanted to be. I was just working a lot and working really hard at whatever was in front of me, but without intention. And it sounds like what you were doing was you were doing that with intention.
- [05:38]
Sandrine Charles
Oh, yeah. They were like, definitely putting me more in consumer. And I was like, no, I can. I can do this. So I. I ensured myself that I was meeting with people and getting to know them again and letting them know I'm back in fashion and definitely investing my time, which was a sacrifice on my relationship at that time. So I was like, no, I'm gonna stay late, and I really want to learn all these bits. And he was really accommodating as. As well. And that also helped me get onto certain projects, which then, of course, leveled the playing field for me on the team as a senior person having that why?
- [06:13]
Interviewer
And like, that North Star is super important.
- [06:15]
Sandrine Charles
Yeah. I was like, I have to work hard. Like, it's great that I'm in this space, but I want to prove that I'm capable of doing that. And that was my why. Because at that point I was like, I just want to do really well. I'm so competitive. I'm like, I don't care what anyone else here is doing. I need to do this. And it eventually worked in my favor.
- [06:34]
Interviewer
Can we talk a little bit more about being competitive? Because before you came in, I was recording a solo episode, and, girl, I don't even know what I was talking about in that episode. Honestly, it was because I had another interview cancel, and I was like, oh, I'm here, so I'm just going to go solo. And I was talking about competitiveness and being competitive with ourselves and often that sense of being competitive with our own potential. So I would love to hear your take on, like, what kind of competitive you are and how that served you.
- [07:04]
Sandrine Charles
I'm really competitive with myself. I think it may come off as if I'm competing with other people, but anyone who really knows me, I'm really good at just referring business or partners or whatever, and I want to see everyone win. And I think that's just because it's good karma. Also, you. If you're hiding something or withholding from other people, the universe will do the same to you. Right. But I'm strict on myself. I think it's that first eldest daughter mentality where I'm just like, I have to do really well because there are other people that are watching. And then I also have to ensure that they can have the bandwidth to do things that they enjoy. I've loosened that a bit, especially over the past year where I've been trying to give myself more grace. I've been trying to be more at ease with my nervous system and not freaking out all the time. And it's helping. It's not there yet, but it is helping.
- [08:01]
Interviewer
That's good, though, that you've been able to embrace more of that. I would imagine that that's also hard with the work that you do. Just at least I have a perception as somebody who is not working in pr but has worked very closely with people in pr, that it is. It is stressful. It can be very stressful.
- [08:17]
Sandrine Charles
It can be so stressful. And I think it's very much glamorized on the Internet that, like, I remember someone asked one time, why don't you post what you're doing? I was like, do you really want to see me build an Excel sheet and call people? I don't think you care. You want to see the end result where it's a really fun party and these are the photos or a great campaign and here's the press. So I think there's just a lot of pressure in this space, you know, of course, to show and prove that you have really cool things that you're working on that. That are tangible to. To get the next great thing that you want to work on. But I've been giving myself more breaks. I've been having, like, this. I was just telling you, like, coming off of a trip every July, spending time away. I'm journaling, I'm reading, I'm working out. I'm just spending time with myself. So I come back a little bit more refreshed. Not really, but just. Just a little bit better than before.
- [09:12]
Interjection Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [09:13]
Interviewer
And are those things that you like to incorporate in your routine normally, like the journaling and.
- [09:18]
Sandrine Charles
Yeah, I'm on, like, my second journal over the past year. My friend JP gave me one last June that I've ran through. I love to write down my sermons, like, when I'm listening. I'll take notes on my phone and then in my journal, and then I'll do, like, weekly or daily manifestations or just write how I'm feeling, and then I'm off to my next one. My friend Cammie actually gave me a journal, like, two months ago. And it's great because I feel like everyone in my Universe is also very aligned and very intentional about, like, creating peace and space for themselves. Even though we're always in community with.
- [09:55]
Interviewer
Other people, it helps a lot.
- [09:57]
Sandrine Charles
Oh, my God.
- [09:57]
Interviewer
People in your life on the same wave.
- [09:59]
Sandrine Charles
Yeah, 100%. And, like, there's so much grace and space for you to, like, reset. Like, everyone knows you're still around. Like, there's no question that you're. You're not talking to them. They're just, Just like, you need time to regroup. We all do. Especially nowadays. For sure.
- [10:15]
Interjection Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
- [10:15]
Interviewer
And just being around people who get it and who give you that space.
- [10:18]
Sandrine Charles
Yeah, it's actually perfect.
- [10:20]
Interviewer
And respect the boundaries.
- [10:21]
Interjection Speaker
Yeah, yeah.
- [10:23]
Interviewer
Coming back to working in pr, I think my perception is that the field has changed a bit over the past decade. A bit might be a little bit of an understatement.
- [10:38]
Sandrine Charles
It has. No, it has. I think even when I first started, there were. Everyone had their categories. Like, you just knew who did what, you collaborated, you know, all those things. And I think, like, now. And it's, it's great. I mean, there's so many really smart people that have created their own shop. But it definitely comes with the difference of rates. It comes with the difference of how everyone operates. We still operate the same as, like, the bigger agency. Well, just the format and protocol of those and, you know, everyone's different. So I think it has created a lot of opportunities for a lot of great people. But I don't necessarily think that we're all doing the same thing. But from social media might look like it for sure.
- [11:26]
Interviewer
And I think with how much social media has become such a big part of our daily lives, it feels like effective PR is more important than ever. Because there's more touch points than ever.
- [11:39]
Sandrine Charles
Well, yeah, because, you know, and it, it, it's in the sense of that it changed. Of course, social has changed. You could just post. You didn't have stories. You could just post your event after, post your campaign after. And it's like, cool, that's great. You know, onto the next. Now there can be like two or three agencies working on something and everyone's posting the same content. It's more of a blurred line of what's happening and then, like, who's leading it. But I think that everyone's just in a hamster wheel against their will. I think, like, you're just trying to show and prove at the same time. There's so much happening and then everyone's doing the same thing. Where I would love spending like two or three weeks just working on strategies and really thinking and being really critical about what we wanted to happen. And sometimes you don't get that grace period anymore. You definitely want the project and maybe you have three days to do that. And it's, it's changed because you say you want to take a week and someone's like, well, it's in two weeks, so I'll go to someone else that's different. And prior to, it's like, I really want to work with you. I know you'll be really intentional about the project. Let's collaborate. It just depends on the project, the client, the opportunity. But you can see that there has been a. A bit of a shift for sure.
- [12:57]
Interjection Speaker
Yeah.
- [12:58]
Interviewer
It sounds like a lot of it is related to pacing.
- [13:01]
Sandrine Charles
Yeah.
- [13:01]
Interviewer
And things just moving faster and faster.
- [13:05]
Sandrine Charles
Yeah. I think everything moves. We have so many outlets that people have to showcase content or results or just like even seating, you know, like who can get it out the fastest. And it's just the name of the game nowadays.
- [13:19]
Interjection Speaker
Yeah.
- [13:19]
Sandrine Charles
Yeah.
- [13:19]
Interviewer
I feel really similarly about content. And even as you were describing previously in pr how people had more of like their certain specialties and there was the slower process. I feel like in content it used to be that way for sure. It's like you were a YouTuber or a blogger or like an Instagram travel baddie.
- [13:41]
Sandrine Charles
Yeah.
- [13:41]
Interviewer
But you weren't all of those things.
- [13:43]
Sandrine Charles
You can be a baddie with a podcast and a YouTube and you travel. Yeah. So you can do it all. And that's not to take that away from people. But there were certain buckets and holes where everyone was just thriving in their own right for sure.
- [13:59]
Interviewer
And then now it's like everybody does everything for sure.
- [14:02]
Sandrine Charles
Like I feel like sometimes I'm a travel baddie. Like I'm always on vacation and it's a fine tuned line for me. Being authentic to myself on my personal page and also being Caribbean. Like I'm always on a beach. Right. Like to then going, oh my God, should I be, you know, wearing a suit on my Instagram and posting more headshots versus like, this is the only time I get to have a break. If I'm in a bathing suit, it's someone going to say like, I don't work. And I used to not think about.
- [14:30]
Interviewer
It as critically because there are so many different touch points that we're showing up on.
- [14:41]
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- [15:27]
Les (Host)
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- [17:01]
Interviewer
I would also love to talk about the importance of owning a narrative and the importance of of kind of owning the stories that we tell. Whether that's on a grand scale.
- [17:11]
Sandrine Charles
Right.
- [17:12]
Interviewer
Like you mentioned some of the iconic brands that you worked with or even on the smaller scale of people who maybe have their own personal brands or navigating their own careers and how they navigate kind of effectively telling and owning their own story.
- [17:26]
Sandrine Charles
Yeah, I think we all, against our will right now are are sharing our narratives differently and content differently. We all are at an intersection of being extremely professional online, where before you can post a plate of food and that's just like, because you enjoyed it or you were excited about it. And now everything has to be hyper curated. So you're wearing different hats and they're all probably really authentic, but it's just so much more curated where I'm like, I love being on vacation. Like, if my Instagram could just be like, here are the places I love to go and share it with you. And if you want work, you can go to my work page. I tread very lightly between both because perception is key. And I don't want anyone to think that I'm not working because I'm not showing that I'm working 24 7. I don't. I also don't want to be a workhorse. I've worked with my, you know, worked on my company for nine years and I'm really excited to get to the 10th and I have an incredible team behind me. But I don't think that that's the only thing about me. Like, my personality and my aura is just not hashtag girlboss. But I think I've had to adopt that type of label indirectly. Like, I've never called myself that, but I'll catch people saying, like, okay, boss, or, you know, like, what? That's not me. Like, I can do a job. Do you call a doctor boss? Or, you know, anyone else that's just a really great person in their space? I don't think so. So I think I've deviated from posting a lot of work on my personal page because I think I'm my own person and it crosses the line sometimes. Yeah.
- [19:21]
Interviewer
Yeah, it does. I think that that line gets even blurrier for particularly women who have their own businesses, because in so many ways I think women are expected to build in public. Is the phrase everybody uses nowadays where it's, if a woman has a company, she's expected to be influencer number one at that company and build in public and show everybody how she does it. And even though, you know, we don't really use the term girl boss anymore, there is still this, this residual aura of girl boss.
- [19:54]
Sandrine Charles
I'm like, my gosh, can I post that? Like, I mean, I love my dumps. I've been doing these dumbs with like TikToks and videos for years. Like, go back pre Covid. But you know, sometimes like, oh, should I post it? Like, everyone's doing it now. Is that like, not my thing? But it's so my thing. I think My personality, who I am at the core is, is really funny. But I also am aware that I don't want like a marketing director to think that I'm just jokes on the Internet. So we just, you know. Yeah, we figure it out.
- [20:30]
Interviewer
It's so much to be aware of all at the same time.
- [20:33]
Sandrine Charles
All the time. All the time. Like, I think more now critically on if I'm even gonna post where I'm working out, because I don't want people to think I posted at 2 o' clock in the afternoon that I just worked out. And even so we're working, I can take a break, but it depends on how someone perceives my daily routine that can be posted four days later.
- [20:55]
Interviewer
And I think sometimes there's also certain industries too where those things are, you know, looked at a certain way. I previously worked in tech and I do think tech was a little bit more lenient about stuff like that. I'm curious how the fashion industry treats things like that. Would you say that it's more traditional in the sense of, you know, specific hours where people have a perception of what should be happening, or is there flexibility?
- [21:20]
Sandrine Charles
I think it depends on who is watching. I've always, like, and I'm saying always within the past nine years, have been finding my balance. So now I know I wake up at six or five, I'm working out and then I'll see my boxing coach a couple times a week. I know what that looks like. But if someone sees me post boxing in the middle of the afternoon sometimes I'll get like a reply like, oh my God, it's the middle of the day. And I'm like, what, what are you talking about? Like, who cares what time I posted? And even so, like, the work is getting done. There's people who work here full time. I should have the, the advantage to just work out whenever I want to so that I'm whole within myself without everything falling between the cracks. I think I'm aware of that. I'm aware of my peers. When I say my peers, other entrepreneurs and what they share. I think a lot of us do hold back because you, you want to again, like be professional and put your best foot forward and that will be detrimental to sharing your personality sometimes.
- [22:26]
Interviewer
I have made jokes at times that I think it's fun sometimes to gatekeep aspects of my personality from the Internet.
- [22:34]
Sandrine Charles
I used to do that all the time. I feel like now, now I'm a mix of. Maybe some days I'll just post coverage, like repost from our Instagram or like coming off of my holiday, like the last day or after I've landed back home, I'll post, like everything that I want to share. But that's gatekeeping for sure. I'm not sharing where I'm going all the time. Unless you know where I'm going, then that's at your, you know, discretion to vacation there as well. But it's kind of like it sucks to. To not share as you choose do because you have to just be very hyper aware for sure all the time.
- [23:13]
Interjection Speaker
Yep.
- [23:13]
Interviewer
Yeah, exactly. I would love to talk a bit more about the entrepreneurship side of things. And with your company that you started in 2016, you called out the nine years, which is exciting. Coming up on 10.
- [23:27]
Sandrine Charles
Yes.
- [23:27]
Interviewer
Can you take us back to you starting your company? I'm curious if you have always had an entrepreneurial streak to you or if it was something that you came to be throughout your career.
- [23:40]
Sandrine Charles
It came to be. I think other people, to be honest, saw it in me versus myself. Originally, it was going to be a lawyer, so I was just happy to be somewhere. And then along the lines of becoming senior. Scandal was on. And it was like a little jokey calling me like Olivia Pope and like my friends, like, kind of joking around. I'm like, you know what? Yeah. And now, like for the past nine years, there's a slide in my deck that has that in it. But I really admired the way she set up shop and the way everyone at the company, though they were doing crazy work, can do what she can do. And that's the same here. Whether you're an assistant or director, you should be able to do the basics of what I'm doing or write a press release or send out, you know, an announcement. Everyone can do that. So that's how my team was like. My team, both my senior terms at the two agencies, they can do it. I could sit in a meeting, I come out, it's out, they're clipping coverage. It just felt good that we're all on the same wavelength. So maybe that's where people saw an entrepreneurial spirit. But when I was leaving, I was not planning on starting a company. I didn't announce it for three months. I was working on things and sharing things, but I didn't share that I had a company. Cause I was scared.
- [25:00]
Interviewer
Why?
- [25:01]
Sandrine Charles
I don't know. I think it's scary. I think today it's very scary. I might operate with ease externally, but I'm very hyper aware of all the elements that apply to running a business daily. And I Always say, like, at the top of my lungs, like, oh, my God, is nobody aware of P and L? Like, we just vibes, you know, because it's true. And thank God I was taught that before I went out on my own. I think that is the most important thing that I carry with me day to day. Taking on retainer or projects and being very aware of, like, profit and loss and not just walking around. Like, all we do is go to lunch, you know, for sure, for sure.
- [25:46]
Interviewer
Those foundational, like, business acumen things are so important, and I do think often get missed.
- [25:53]
Sandrine Charles
And.
- [25:53]
Interviewer
And I think something that can also be challenging is when people have a certain specialty, right. Whether it is, like, they're a really great publicist or they're a really great creator, it can be a different part of your brain to begin thinking about these other elements that keep a business running. How do you maintain having this great specialty and skillset and then also running the business on top of that?
- [26:18]
Sandrine Charles
Well, from the beginning, I was like, if I'm going to do this, I need a team. I got my lawyer, got my accountant. Now I have an accounting team. I have a wealth manager. I'm like, I need to leave this thing with something. Like, I need to, like, retire. So I always thought about the admin in the background of it, because this is something I do great today, but, like, what if tomorrow I want to open, like, a wine shop? Can I open a wine shop or, you know, do something different? I don't know. I've always been taught to be financially responsible and having that familial background where, like, my family's good with money and, like, just being smart with money and investing, I wanted to ensure that that was at the foundation of creating something. I mean, every year won't be your best year, but, like, do you have something stored away for a rainy day just in case?
- [27:16]
Interviewer
So important. Literally learning that lesson now. Yeah.
- [27:20]
Sandrine Charles
And it can be small. I'm very big on, like, small investments to bigger investments, and you can put, like, a hundred dollars a week into, like, a high yield savings account, and it'll be something at the end of the year. I think a lot of times we look at the immediate return, and I've learned to really adapt and really be excited about looking at all that. When it's time to submit my tax paper, it's like, oh, my God, you saved so much.
- [27:45]
Interjection Speaker
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [27:47]
Interviewer
And as he went about building your team, kind of shout out to the gladiators, right? Inspired by. Inspired by Olivia Pope. What did that look like in the early days.
- [27:59]
Sandrine Charles
In the early days, I had a very different perception of what I have today. I wanted to just get people who I thought understood it. And over time, you can realize that some people are there for a good time, some people are there for the vibes, and some people really want to work hard. I've had a great assistant turned project manager for three to four years that I still admire and adore. She moved on earlier in her 20s to start a family, and I was like, great. I need people like her. I need people who can balance their work life, personal life, but are really good when they're here. And I think that applies to every place. But right now, I just feel like my team gets it. They. They want the wins. We all want to win in general, but they understand what it takes. Like, we have two events this week. I just came off holiday. Everything was fine. They're operating with such a level of professionalism and peace that I'm just really happy that they're here.
- [29:02]
Interjection Speaker
Yeah.
- [29:03]
Interviewer
How do you set up your team to succeed while you're building a team? Delegating?
- [29:10]
Sandrine Charles
I think it's from the ground up, but I also have team members who have been here for a while, so they're able to be proactive to support training or if someone's doing something wrong. And I try to hire from within, so I've hired interns to, like, work at the company because once you're done and you know how we operate, it's easier to hire someone who's already acclimated with the process. And then sometimes it's great to hire people outside who have a fresh perspective. And again, I haven't been at these larger companies for a very long time, so it's always a great injection of different methods and protocols that can help us be better.
- [29:50]
Interjection Speaker
Yeah.
- [29:50]
Interviewer
Yeah, that totally makes sense. How big of a team do you have now?
- [29:53]
Sandrine Charles
We're six. New York, la. Yeah.
- [29:55]
Interjection Speaker
Yeah.
- [29:56]
Sandrine Charles
And it's great. It's great. It's a lot. I mean, we've been bigger, but I think leaner right now. Leaner, smarter. Feels good.
- [30:06]
Interjection Speaker
Yeah.
- [30:07]
Sandrine Charles
Things change and bigger things come across our desk, then we can always revisit that. But I'm very confident in the people I have in place.
- [30:16]
Interviewer
I like a lean team. It's just I've also had experience working in corporate as well, and I used to manage a team in corporate and I found that with a smaller team and just having the bandwidth to give people what they need and be a present leader, it helps a lot. And Even though having a big team sounds really cool, it sounds so.
- [30:39]
Sandrine Charles
It sounds so glamorous, But I think when we had, like, eight or ten, I. I couldn't see it all. I don't know what's happening. And so then I'm more aware of someone messing around all day or on social all day, and, you know, someone just collecting a check and not doing their work. But if it's leaner, then we're all kind of all hands on deck, and I can figure out who does something better than the other, who needs to be nurtured a little more in that skill set, but maybe not on this project, you know? And it feels better.
- [31:13]
Interjection Speaker
Yeah, it does.
- [31:15]
Interviewer
I've also been having a lot of mindset shifts around this idea of having a team, and I am down to delegate. And I used to just think, like, as long as somebody who isn't me is doing these certain things.
- [31:25]
Sandrine Charles
Yeah, great.
- [31:26]
Interviewer
That was kind of like level one. I feel like I'm graduating into level two, where it's like, okay, not just anybody who's not me doing these. These things that I perceive isn't my zone of genius. Am I getting the right work to the right people so they can be in their zone of genius?
- [31:41]
Sandrine Charles
Yeah.
- [31:42]
Interviewer
And it's been a big shift.
- [31:45]
Sandrine Charles
It's a huge shift. And also, like, having them understand that this is something they need, even if they don't want to do it, they. It's like, you can do it. You might not love doing it. Like, do I love doing admin? No. But I know I have to. So I think armoring people. My biggest fear of when people move on from the company is not that they move on. I want them to flourish. It's what do you move on with? Like, if someone's like, you worked for her and this is how you work, that's the most humiliating thing that could ever happen. That's what I don't want to happen. Like, I want them to be sharks in the water and people to say, wow, you worked for Sandrine, not like, ooh, you worked for her. This is like, your work ethic. So.
- [32:30]
Interviewer
That's a good point.
- [32:31]
Sandrine Charles
Yeah.
- [32:31]
Interviewer
Because it is a reflection of you and the work that you do with people. Yeah, it's a really good point. Now you got me thinking.
- [32:39]
Sandrine Charles
Think about it. Think about it. Like, I'm always happy for people because we. We find ways to collaborate regardless, eventually, you know, down the line. But what does that look like for you? Like, is someone gonna call me, like, that person is so terrible? Or like, wow. Thank you for teaching them this. They're such a great addition to the team. That's what I like to get for sure. Emails and calls about and then you.
- [33:02]
Interviewer
Feel so, so proud. I mean I remember even when I worked in corporate and I managed more junior people and then they eventually became managers themselves and would get promoted, you're.
- [33:13]
Sandrine Charles
Like, I'm like, this is so this. Well, that's what it's all about. Like I don't want to work till I'm 70 or 80. I want to like literally stay at home and be a mother and you know, still work but like still have that better balance knowing that people can do what they're tasked to do for sure.
- [33:37]
Les (Host)
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- [37:06]
Interviewer
So I would also love to talk about the Black in Fashion Council, which is really exciting, important work. So for our audience who may not know you co founded the Black in Fashion Council alongside Lindsay Peoples In 2020, I'd love to talk more about how you two came together, how you founded the council, and the kind of original mission of what you were doing.
- [37:28]
Sandrine Charles
For sure. Well, Lindsay and I were friends prior to the council and I think during the height of 2020 we were both posting similar sentiments. And like we just spoke one day and we're like, let's get people together. Let's see what our peers are thinking about and what's important to them. And it was really seeing a lot of complaints. Like I experienced this at this or that company and I was included in her story Black and fashion in 2018. So like we already spoke about these line items and we got people from all over. I think the first call was like 400 people then like 200 and then like a hundred brands signed on once we got them acclimated with our mission. And it was just really to create a universal standard. Like, everyone does an amazing job in their own space. Like, we love Brandees. Brendy sits on our board. She has Harlem Fashion Row. We love it. We love everything she does. She's really helpful for us. Like, what has worked for you being in this space for 10 years? Like, what are we going to do different, of course, to complement your work. And it made sense, et cetera, et cetera, for other people in the group who have their own missions. It was never to be a siloed assignment, which is why there are so many familiar faces that do great things on the board. But we wanted to ensure that brands and companies were coming together to align on our mission, which was just to help people. We have a directory that we created with color change. Brands can tap into that directory and hire different creatives. We also do our showroom, thanks to Leslie Russo, who has been such like a mom and mentor for us over our initiative with designers, especially when she was at IMG giving us the platform and the partnership, even to this day. And we just wrapped season 10 with the designers, and we celebrated with our seasonal dinner on having whoever was available to come or was in New York. And it's really great. We built a community that's there, that's still working amongst each other. And brands are working with them as well as, like, is finding out that we could do something else instead of our day jobs. And that's been interesting to see what else we can do.
- [39:45]
Interjection Speaker
Yeah.
- [39:45]
Interviewer
And create change from that 100. Something that helps people.
- [39:48]
Sandrine Charles
I love hearing stories. I mean, obviously we're a smaller operation than maybe people know. There's only three of us full time. But it is great that we're planting seeds and building and even like the networking events that we do. And every quarter, every season. It should be every quarter in coming years. Right. That's the goal. But every season we have them, and people just get to talk to other people. And we have a panel. It's moderated by an editor every time. So now these people who are enjoying the conversation can network up or across. And that's been rewarding because there's so many black people that work in the. I promise you, I don't know them all. Sometimes I. When I'm on Instagram and someone post someone they're with and I'll go and see their page, I'm like, oh, that person works at PRADA screenshot. I need to invite them to something, you know, but it's also a way to continue to build a wider net of community that people can continue to tap into.
- [40:44]
Interjection Speaker
Yeah.
- [40:44]
Interviewer
When you first started the council, what were, I guess, some of the biggest needs that the creatives were expressing that they needed at that time?
- [40:53]
Sandrine Charles
I think designers needed support. A lot of the emails we got were designers needing support. And, you know, it's been such a pleasure to create these opportunities with the Designer Showroom. We create a space where we invite editors as well as retailers so that they can garner some press and also build their network. Some designers have come multiple times. Charles Harbison relaunched at the Showroom, his brand, so that's been really great. And then you have companies that sponsor the showroom that will partner with these designers and give them some more money and do merch or whatever, do content, and that expands their network because maybe someone at that company will tell their friend at another company and so on and so forth. So I think the designer aspect has been huge. We get so many emails, but a lot of times, by the time we get those emails, we've already selected for the next season. But it's good to note who's in the atmosphere. And then our job board, we started it digitally. We had Storm Reid do the first one and we've had great people, you know, do our keynote speaking at Envision Fest. We have another one coming up in August. Our good friend Kamie did one. We've had Yara Shahidi. It's been great that, like, talent has also been at the forefront of supporting this mission and showing up to initiatives that we have. So I think it's. It's bigger than we imagined and I think that's great and it should live on longer than us. That's the goal.
- [42:23]
Interjection Speaker
Yeah.
- [42:23]
Interviewer
Which is exciting that it's been five years already. Five years, which is exciting.
- [42:27]
Sandrine Charles
It's great. I think we're working on such great things with great people and also tapping really great creatives as well as innovative thinkers or marketers with some of these companies. So everyone gets a piece of the pie and everyone gets to share their skill set.
- [42:47]
Interviewer
I think it's a time where creatives need more support than ever so that they can actually create.
- [42:53]
Sandrine Charles
Yeah. And I think there's a lot of great creators that we've met in. In this process. Of course, there are some usual suspects that we love to see and they've been championing other people. It's just good to see the. It's so positive it's crazy.
- [43:06]
Interjection Speaker
Yeah.
- [43:06]
Sandrine Charles
Yeah, for sure.
- [43:08]
Interviewer
And with the council now being 5 years old, what would you like to see happen in the next five years?
- [43:14]
Sandrine Charles
You know, just continue to support. Support with some of the partners. We've also added great partners that have been amazing and working with brands and companies to do really innovative things. We've gotten to do some really great things with Cartier over the past two years, which is a refresher, like just adding our, you know, two cents into the program that they have in place. And also what they see can enhance the partnerships they have, which is so intentional. We're working with Barbie, and we'll be working with Barbie at EnvisionFest and bringing in some designers for that. So I think I'd love to see more of that and bringing in new and fresh faces and seeing how they can collaborate with us and then eventually collaborate on their own.
- [44:00]
Interviewer
I love that the through line in so much of what we talked about all comes back to relationship building and facilitation.
- [44:06]
Sandrine Charles
Listen, relationships are at the crux of. Of everything I do. I think there are reasons and seasons, of course, for some of them, but overall, it's so, I guess, not exciting, but just refreshing. When I get an email, like, so and so sent me here, and I'm like, really? I haven't spoken to them in, like, three years. And knowing that we still have that core relationship of, I admire what you do, you admire what I do, and we don't have to talk to each other every day for you to consider me, and vice versa.
- [44:39]
Interjection Speaker
Yeah.
- [44:40]
Interviewer
Something that I hear a lot from the audience is just people feeling like they struggle with kind of maintaining relationships, whether that's maybe friendships as they get into their 30s or they move to different cities, or professional relationships where people feel like they have a hard time establishing and maintaining those. Do you have any advice for people who need support in that area?
- [45:02]
Sandrine Charles
I think we all go through ebbs and flows, and it's just something we're never prepared for. I wouldn't know. I would think that everyone's gonna be my friend forever, and if that's not the reality, that's okay. I've learned recently to really cherish the season that I have with people and then just letting them soar versus probably previously I'd be, like, upset, but now I'm like, wow, it was really great what we had, and it was really fun. And I can take that and forget the rest and not literally forget it, but just, like, not harbor any negative feeling. Just like, wow, it was really fun. We had a blast. It was such a great relationship. And maybe that relationship was a catalyst to how a newer relationship operates and what we learned from it, et cetera. But we're never prepared to learn that that's coming. You know, it's just everything's forever.
- [45:58]
Interjection Speaker
Yeah.
- [45:59]
Sandrine Charles
And it's okay.
- [46:00]
Interviewer
That's been such a big lesson for me as. As I get older, too. I've even had people in the audience ask about navigating friendship breakups. And the more that I've thought about it, the more I've been like, you know, I don't think I've had a real friendship breakup in a really long time from having a very similar mentality of what you described of being in community with people and really enjoying sharing that space. And if something feels like there is a natural evolution where not necessarily, like, not falling out, but just we're not as close as we once were, or life pulls us in different directions, and.
- [46:38]
Sandrine Charles
It could be any of those three. I just think that life happens and we should just learn or be prepared to learn to navigate from there. I mean, I had a friend that I was really close with in my 20s. It just naturally went its separate way, and now we're very close again. It just happened, you know, we weren't seeking each other. It was like we saw each other and caught up, and it just was like, oh, okay, time passed and we're fine again.
- [47:05]
Interviewer
You can come back together.
- [47:06]
Sandrine Charles
Yeah.
- [47:07]
Interviewer
I've had very similar experiences versus times where it's like, you don't talk to me anymore. We're breaking up. It's like, well, then you're probably not.
- [47:15]
Sandrine Charles
Gonna come together then if you don't come back. Wish you well. I. I really, truly learned not to harbor. This is a lesson maybe two or three years old. Like, it's okay.
- [47:27]
Interjection Speaker
Yeah.
- [47:27]
Sandrine Charles
Like, God bless you in your journey, because what do I look like sitting there cursing you for all my days? Like, God bless. It's fine.
- [47:39]
Interviewer
Exactly.
- [47:39]
Sandrine Charles
And it's going to be fine.
- [47:40]
Interjection Speaker
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
- [47:42]
Interviewer
But I love. I loved what you said about just seasons.
- [47:45]
Sandrine Charles
Seasons and reasons. We're good.
- [47:47]
Interviewer
For sure.
- [47:48]
Sandrine Charles
Yeah.
- [47:48]
Interviewer
So before we wrap up, I would love to talk a little bit about fashion.
- [47:52]
Sandrine Charles
Yeah.
- [47:52]
Interviewer
One, because I just think it's, like, a really fun topic. And two, I think fashion is so much more than just clothes, and it is not something that is this, like, frivolous. Frivolous thing that it can often be written off as that it can be a really important aspect of culture and creativity and expression. And I would Just love to hear more of your thoughts around why fashion is so much more than just clothes.
- [48:20]
Sandrine Charles
I think fashion is just self expression. I'm telling you, sometimes I roll into work wearing, like, a workout outfit, and that's just what I'm wearing today. I don't want to be fashionable. I just want to get my work done and then I want to go straight into my workout, you know, or other days. Like today I'm dressed up. I was like, I'm learning how to tie a tie. This trend is getting on my nerves because I don't know how to tie one. And today just worked out. And I think I haven't gotten so many compliments. Walking into the office, my office building, I'm like, okay, should I be dressing up more? Like, what are. What are people saying? But I think it's just natural. I think everyone has such a unique style that I wish we saw more different ways of applying fashion to your everyday life. I don't know if I'm getting this right, but it's like watching the streets or I'll send it to you after, but this is Instagram and they just take pictures of people as they're on the street.
- [49:15]
Interjection Speaker
Yeah.
- [49:16]
Sandrine Charles
And it's so great to see how everyone has their own personal style and how fashion applies to, like, even the finance bro going to work and then he leaves work and he has got, like, a really cool outfit. Wait, I didn't even know you dressed so well.
- [49:28]
Interjection Speaker
Right.
- [49:28]
Sandrine Charles
You know, left that Patagonia vest behind, but who knew? You know, fashion is very personal and it's exciting. I can't wait to see, like, how people really differentiate their summer styles in this absolutely ridiculous heat.
- [49:42]
Les (Host)
I know.
- [49:42]
Interviewer
It has been so hot in New York lately.
- [49:45]
Sandrine Charles
Today's a great day. But, like, last week.
- [49:47]
Interviewer
No nasty.
- [49:48]
Sandrine Charles
Yeah. So I'm like, what. What is everyone wearing? What's going on?
- [49:52]
Interjection Speaker
Yeah.
- [49:52]
Sandrine Charles
How do you style that? That's what I love to see. That's what excites me about fashion. Yes, we have our trends and exciting collaborations, but how you dress and how you feel and how you apply it to your everyday life really is what I look to. I'm constantly trying to evolve in the way I dress and think about dressing and shopping and editing my closet. And I see that more and more because I'm always on TikTok that people are also doing the same thing, just evolving.
- [50:24]
Interviewer
I love seeing how people put things together and how people can take something that seems so simple and put it together in ways that I never would have thought of.
- [50:34]
Sandrine Charles
Ever. And I. And I see it all the time, and I'm like, wow, if I bought that, I would've done it very different. But I'm now more inspired by the way they dress, that it could be.
- [50:44]
Interviewer
Really cool in so many ways. It's such a muscle.
- [50:47]
Sandrine Charles
Yeah.
- [50:48]
Interviewer
That is. Last year, I did a challenge with myself where. Cause I was a workout clothes queen.
- [50:53]
Sandrine Charles
Wait, I think I remember this. Were you, like, were buying clothes or, like, cleaning out your clothes?
- [50:58]
Interviewer
I got dressed every day for the month of September, and I didn't buy new clothes during that time. I forced myself to put things together with what I had. And it. It was such a good exercise. It was. It truly did feel like I was strengthening a muscle. And it also taught me a lesson about taking my time because a lot of what I was doing was just like, throwing on a workout set because I wouldn't give myself enough time to actually get ready and, like, put thought into how I was presenting. And it really forced me, one, to, like, wake up on time and give myself time to get ready and to really strengthen that muscle. And I'm probably due for something like that again.
- [51:36]
Sandrine Charles
I want to do that. I want to do that. When you do that. I'll do it at the same time.
- [51:41]
Interviewer
September was a great month for it.
- [51:43]
Sandrine Charles
I'll do it in September.
- [51:44]
Interjection Speaker
Yeah.
- [51:44]
Sandrine Charles
I'm currently, like, cleaning out my closet, and I'm. I'm very confused where all these clothes are coming from. Like, me and my housekeeper were going through it, and she was like, where is this? Where is this coming from? I don't shop as much, but I'm trying to stay away from trends and just get the staples. I wear a lot of black, so, like, finding. Even this is too colorful for me, but finding ways to add more color into my closet. I'm going to do it with you in September.
- [52:08]
Interviewer
Yeah, let's do it. Okay. We'll have to do it. We'll have to update everybody.
- [52:11]
Sandrine Charles
Yeah.
- [52:11]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [52:12]
Sandrine Charles
With how that.
- [52:13]
Interviewer
How that's going. It's also a good time for it too, because it starts to cool off a little bit and it's. But it's not cold. It's like, the perfect month for it.
- [52:20]
Sandrine Charles
Perfect time to change.
- [52:23]
Interjection Speaker
Yes.
- [52:24]
Interviewer
Sandrine, thank you so much for joining me.
- [52:25]
Sandrine Charles
Thank you for having me. I really enjoy the conversation.
- [52:28]
Interviewer
Good. I did, too. Can you please let our audience know where they can keep in touch with you?
- [52:33]
Sandrine Charles
Sure. On Instagram. Andrine Charles. My business is Ndrine Charles Consulting. My TikTok is like a finsta. So I don't post. I just watch. So I don't know where it is. And Sandrine Charles.com perfect.
- [52:48]
Interviewer
We'll make sure we have all of that linked in the show notes. Honestly, you're doing tick tock right? It's a lot more fun.
- [52:53]
Sandrine Charles
Watch it to watch them. Yeah. I could never put one. I've seen people do it. It's alarming. I. I don't have it in me. I get it. I admire it though, so much.
- [53:03]
Interviewer
Sam, thank you again for being here.
- [53:05]
Sandrine Charles
Appreciate it.
- [53:06]
Interviewer
Yeah.
- [53:12]
Les (Host)
Thank you for tuning in to this week's week's episode of she's so Lucky. If you're ready to create your own luck, hit that subscribe button wherever you get your podcasts or on YouTube so you don't miss an episode and head to the Show Notes for resources, links and discount codes. And if you are really feeling lucky, we would appreciate your rating and your review. It really helps us be able to improve the show to get great guests and to understand what you want to hear more of. Thank you for tuning in and I'll see you.
- [53:39]
Interviewer
See you next week.
- [53:46]
Caroline Stanbury
Hi, I'm Caroline Stanbury, star of the Real Housewives of Dubai, entrepreneur, wife and mother of three, once divorced and now remarried to a much younger man. Uncut and Uncensored with Caroline Stanbury follows me as I live my life unapologetically and shows you that there is life after 40. I discuss everything from relationships, health, wellness, business, parenting, friendships. I'm here to let you know that not only is there a life after divorce, but you have the power to make it your best one yet.
- [54:14]
Interviewer
Just like I did.
- [54:15]
Caroline Stanbury
Listen to all new episodes every Wednesday, anywhere you get your podcasts.
- [54:21]
Interviewer
Please note that this episode may contain.
- [54:23]
Les (Host)
Paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services.
- [54:26]
Interviewer
Individuals on the show may have a.
- [54:28]
Les (Host)
Direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to in this episode.