← She's So Lucky
Loading summary
Transcript136 lines
- [00:01]
A
The following podcast is a Dear Media production.
- [00:10]
B
Thank you so much for tuning in. Now, I have to say I have such an exciting episode for you today because I am interviewing one of my dream guests, Dr. Tama Bryant. So if you are not familiar with Dr. Tama's work, you are in for such a treat. She is a licensed psychologist. She was the former president of the.
- [00:31]
A
American Psychological association, an ordained minister, an.
- [00:35]
B
Accomplished author, and she is also the host of the Homecoming podcast, which is a podcast I have loved, listened to for years and has been such a big part of my healing journey. And she and I talk so much about the importance of relationships, both our relationship with self and our relationships with other people, and how healing and nourishing they can be. It feels like a hug and a therapy session all in one. So let's talk to Dr. Tama. I know that you will love this conversation. Welcome to the show, Dr. Tama. You've just been a dream guest for me for so long, so I'm so happy to have you.
- [01:14]
C
Oh, thank you. I'm so grateful to be here and appreciative of you creating this space and the way in which you do it is such a gift to us and so good to be with your community of listeners as well.
- [01:28]
B
Well, we're so happy to have you. I mean, you do so much profound work in the space of healing that I know has been very personally helpful to me. I'm sure helpful to people who are in our community or if we have listeners who are just now meeting, you will find so much value in it as well. So I really have to thank you for the work you do.
- [01:45]
C
You are welcome. It's been a big push of mine to say it shouldn't be limited to the academy or the private practice office, but just trying to share the information far and wide in the same way that you do with this podcast.
- [01:59]
B
Thank you. Thank you. So I would love to talk about some of the directions that your work has taken. I mean, such a big theme with Homecoming. The podcast, your book, Homecoming, is about helping usher us into our journey back to self, which is so incredibly important. And you also have a new book coming out now which talks more about relational healing and how we heal our relationship with ourselves and one another. And I think sometimes where people can get a little tripped up in our healing journeys, and I felt this way too, is we wanna isolate. We feel like, okay, if I'm coming back to myself, that means I gotta put the blinders on. I gotta shut everybody out. I gotta go hide until I emerge as this healed version. And I've learned the hard way that doesn't really work.
- [02:48]
C
Yes, yes.
- [02:50]
B
Or we think we're really healed, but actually we just aren't around anything or anyone to trigger us. And then we get back around people and it's like, oh, I'm not as healed as my body.
- [02:58]
C
All that stuff comes up, comes up. It's so true. And I think it's a balancing act. There is something to be said about doing some of our own work so that we're not in that pattern of jumping from relationship to relationship. When we do that without any, like, self reflection or healing time, we often end up repeating the cycle. So we have a new person, new name, new face, but the same pattern, same personality. And so it is good to do the inner work. And at the same time, sometimes the pain has caused us to self isolate where we say, like, I don't need any friends or I don't, you know, want it. Even the idea of dating again is just like a hard, hard place in the heart because we're trying to protect ourselves. And so when we're in that place of not being willing to risk letting anyone in, there is such a need for that deeper inner healing. And at the same time, if I do sessions with people who are single, we meet for many times, we can do a lot of healing work, but once they start dating again, some new things are gonna come up. Because it's different sitting in your house by yourself or just hanging out with your friends. But when you start letting people into that intimate space, then some of the old wounds or the unhealed wounds are gonna show up and we wanna shift so we're not repeating those old patterns.
- [04:19]
B
Yeah, yeah. And when it comes to, I guess, interrupting old patterns, what are some of the things that are most helpful for people working through that process?
- [04:27]
C
Yeah, the first one I would say is self awareness. We have to tell ourselves the truth and we're not in an honest place when we can only see other people's issues, which is the easier part. Right. You come out of a relationship and you're like, he did this and she did this. And they may have done many terrible things. But then I say, let's look at what in me drew me to this person or what in me made me stay in this, even though I saw these things. And sometimes it's not just insecurity. Sometimes it can be convincing ourselves that we can make it work and getting confused about compromising relationships. There's some give and take, but we shouldn't have to erase ourselves or silence ourselves. And so I would say step one to breaking a pattern is to see the pattern. So not what did they do, but can you see yourself in it? And perhaps what's the story you have told yourself that has made you act in a particular way, believing that that was required for you to be loved?
- [05:35]
B
That's a really good call out. It's something that I've noticed a lot in my own life. I had gone to therapy off and on for several years, and then last year I decided to go back to therapy on a more consistent basis. And it was my first time going. When there wasn't something particularly wrong in the past, I would go. If I had something at work that was really stressing me out, or, you know, I lost someone and I was grieving or I was going through a breakup, then I would go to therapy for a few months and then stop. And last year I was like, none of that's going on. I'm just going to go to get to the root.
- [06:04]
C
That's good.
- [06:05]
B
And something that I've learned through that process is it's made me so much more aware of my reactions to things and how much my reactions can magnify. Yes, magnify a lot of situations. And so something that I've been working on is being a little bit less reactive and just more like observing, okay, if I have a feeling or if I feel something in my body, what is that? As opposed to reacting to it.
- [06:30]
C
Right.
- [06:31]
B
Because I feel like sometimes in our relationships with other people, whether it's romantic, friends, family, whatever, we're just kind of all reacting at one another.
- [06:39]
C
It's so true. I'm so glad. One that you went when it wasn't crisis, which is then we can really do some deeper work. It's not just responding to crisis of the day, but then in terms of our reactions or reactivity, being able to pause. I call it sacred pause to see is my response feeling like bigger than the moment. Because then often it's related to something else. It's the trigger. Or some people call it an awakening. It's reminding me of a story that I have felt for a long time. Either the story or the lie of my unworthiness, or the story that no one's gonna respect me, or the story that there are winners and losers. So then I have to attack back in a more intense way, or the idea of if anyone disagrees with me, that that's hateful, as opposed to we just disagree. And so being able to pause and what I like to do with clients is have us give it a score. On a scale 1 to 10, how offensive was this? Right. Because sometimes we respond as if everything is a 10. And I like to say not everything is drama worthy. And so I'm not gonna bring my full drama to a level three event.
- [07:59]
B
Yeah, that's good.
- [08:01]
C
Yeah.
- [08:02]
B
Yeah. Being able to discern, like, what is. What is worth a certain reaction or response.
- [08:09]
C
Right. And also I say, like, reminding ourselves that we're not puppets. Cause we'll say like, oh, they made me. You know, and it's like, no one's gonna make me act out of character. Right. Or made me lose it. Sometimes when we respond in a very big way, a part of us may fear that what they're saying or how they're treating us is somehow justified. And so the sting of it versus, like, if someone says something outrageous about you and you just know that's ridiculous, you don't have a strong response because it's just ridiculous.
- [08:44]
B
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Something else that I've learned too, as I've been in this process of just kind of examining and unpacking, is how I have let other people's maybe treatment of me or opinions of me dictate my opinion of myself. Where it's like, oh, if I'm dating this person and they didn't treat me well, then that's an indication of who I am or what I deserve. And learning how to unpack that.
- [09:09]
C
That's right.
- [09:09]
B
Has been really important.
- [09:11]
C
It is because we can become convinced that other people can have good or great, but this is the best I can have. And so let me just be grateful or let me just hold on. And so then we even will tell ourselves, I'm not settling this for me. This is good. And it's like, we deserve goodness and sweetness and to be fulfilled, not just to tolerate. You know, sometimes when we're staying in something, it's not only about does the good outweigh the bad? But also the story we've told ourselves of do I really believe I could be treated better? And when I don't believe it, and sometimes it's, as you said, based on what the person has told me, they've criticized me, put me down. And so that mental trick, that the manipulation to make us feel grateful for crumbs and to really be able to break out of that, to believe in my worthiness and the challenge of it is, can I believe it when I've never seen it? Right.
- [10:20]
B
That's the hard part.
- [10:21]
C
Yeah. That's the hard. That's the faith of can I believe I can be treated well even though it hasn't happened? And to be willing to, I like to say for a period of time. Can you say none of the above? Because when I was younger, I would pick the best out of my options. Right. And if you have a bunch of bad options, then you're still picking something bad. Versus am I willing to say none of the above? I'll wait. Right. And wait doesn't just mean I'll sit in my house, isolate it, but that this, like none of this is fulfilling to me or speaking to me.
- [11:01]
B
I think that can be where the challenge really is. I know that's something I personally still struggle with, is can I believe what I don't see?
- [11:09]
C
Yes. And there, you know, with all the statistics people will say, and it can be rough out here, whether in LA or New York. And so the environment can, over time, chip away at people's esteem and our waiting can cause us to lower the standard. Right. And so trying to hold on to it is not only a test or a challenge for ourselves, but I would say sometimes all the reminder we need is to go and spend time with people who aren't fulfilling. Right. To be on the phone and want to get off. Then you're like, oh yeah, this, this isn't it.
- [11:52]
B
I'm not missing, I'm not missing much here.
- [11:54]
C
You're not, you're not. Yeah.
- [12:03]
A
It's pretty safe to say that most of us are looking for foods that taste good and leave us actually feeling good. And Herobred has been one of my favorite ways to do that. With Herobread, I can still enjoy my go to meals like avocado toast, grilled cheese with a cozy soup, or even breakfast wraps without feeling like I'm sacrificing anything. All of their products are soft, fluffy and so satisfying. But here's the kicker. They're all ultra low net carbs, have zero grams of sugar and are packed with fiber. So basically it's the bread you'll want to keep on hand this year. Personally, I've been focusing on getting more fiber in my diet because while I know a lot of us are eating more protein, we also need to be having more fiber to go along with it. So in searching for more fiber rich foods, I found Herobred. And there's so many breads from their line that I love. Their tortillas are amazing. I love using them for breakfast burritos. It's like having a giant, delicious flour tortilla the sliced bread is perfect for toast, which I love having pre workout with some peanut butter and some honey. The texture and the flavor are on point. You'd never know it's low carb and high fiber from the texture. Like I said, all of their breads are soft, fluffy and so good. They also have monthly small batch drops of yummy favorites like their 4 gram net carb bagel. And new surprises coming this year. HeroBred is offering 10 off your order. Go to Hero Co and use the code balanced at checkout. That's code balanced E R o dot co the older I get, the less patience I have for uncomfortable bras. And with it being February, it's the perfect time to show yourself some love and treat yourself to a comfortable bra. Today's episode is brought to you by HoneyLove, the brand that's completely revolutionized the wireless bra. So you know that feeling when you get home from a long day and immediately you want to take your bra off. You don't have to feel that way again because Honey Love is so comfortable. I love wearing the crossover bra on days when I need support and comfort. It looks great under all of my clothes and it's perfect for everyday wear. Trust me, this is the one bra you'll enjoy wearing and that you won't want to take off. Honeylove also has shapewear tanks and leggings that are just as comfortable and supportive. Honey Love has really cracked the code on combining comfort, support and style without those pesky wires that none of us can stand. Treat yourself to the most comfortable bra on earth and save 20% off site wide at honeylove.com balanced less use our exclusive link to get 20% off at honeylove.com balanced less and after you purchase, they'll ask where you heard about them. And it really helps and supports our show to tell them that we sent you. So make sure you let them know that you learned about them from this podcast. Treat yourself to Honey Love because you deserve it. And again, that's 20% off site wide@honeylove.com balanced less.
- [15:20]
C
Sometimes, especially I think as gifted Black women or intelligent Black women, you can say like, is there another me? Or the narrative is if there's another me, then like 20 million people want them so. But to believe I'm worthy of what I have put in myself, right? I've invested so much in your healing, in your growth, in your mind, in your health that I would like, I require iron sharpens iron. You know, for us to make each other better so the phrase I like to say is you have to decide if you want a partner or a project. Right. Because some people brag about like, I'm a build them. I'm like, no, let's not be an architect or the mother, let's be a partner.
- [16:10]
A
Right.
- [16:11]
B
I'm not in construction.
- [16:13]
C
I'm not a contractor. I'm not. Yeah. And so many people will tell the story of building up someone and then them leaving with their new newly built self.
- [16:24]
A
Right.
- [16:24]
C
And so less. And it's one thing to build together. It doesn't mean we're not growing together, but it shouldn't be such a disparity that sometimes it reveals our own insecurity of believing if I build someone up, they'll be dependent on me, or they'll be grateful, or then they won't leave me. But to believe I'm worthy of someone who has invested in themselves and then we can grow even more together.
- [16:55]
B
Yeah. It almost seems kind of like a form of manipulation to pour so much into someone for the reason of hoping it keeps them around.
- [17:04]
C
That's right. And it also is sometimes us falling for people's potential. Right. Then it's like, I don't really like or love the person I like or love who I think I can make them. Right. If they only talk like this or read these books or dress like this, then it'll be perfect. And it's, you know, to really look at the heart of the person to say in their current state, how do I feel about them. Right. Not what I can make them be, but who they are. And if I don't have genuine care and affection for that person, then for both of us, I should release so they can one, find someone who will actually love them. And so that I can find someone I love, care and respect in their. The fullness of their present reality.
- [17:55]
B
Absolutely. And I think a trap that a lot of people fall into is pouring into someone at the detriment of themselves. Because it's not a bad thing to pour into people. I think anybody who you're in any sort of relationship bring community with. It's like, you know, everybody ideally is pouring into one another, but if you're doing that but completely depleting yourself, you're helping this person reach all their goals, but yours have been abandoned.
- [18:20]
C
That's right.
- [18:21]
B
That's a. That's not being true to yourself.
- [18:23]
C
That's right. That it needs to be mutual and reciprocal. And I would say not only in romantic relationships, but in friendships.
- [18:32]
A
Absolutely.
- [18:33]
C
You know, a lot of Times people will be the strong friend and never let their friends in to help them or to care for them or to reveal their challenges. It's like if we disappear when we're struggling and only show up when we're shiny, then we're not letting people love us and we're not actually operating in friendship.
- [18:55]
B
Definitely.
- [18:56]
C
Yeah.
- [18:56]
B
I love that you brought up friendship, because I'm actually noticing. I don't know if trend is the right word, but kind of a pattern on social media with a lot of conversation with people talking about friendships right now and people talking about how they're having a hard time with dependability. Like, there is in some ways, not to generalize, but kind of a generational trend where people are seeing more, maybe millennials and Gen Z is just not really being dependable when it comes to their friends. If it's people talking about major life events that friends will RSVP to, and then an hour beforehand, everybody, you know is saying, oh, I can't make it. Oh, I'm not coming. Feeling like, if there's any sort of, like, friction or level of maybe inconvenience that they're not really showing up for one. How can we navigate that if it feels like it's happening on a generational scale?
- [19:43]
C
Yes. I think more focus on how to be a good friend, because a lot of times the messaging is about, like, auditioning your friends or cutting your friends. It's about, like, them having to prove yourself, themselves to you. But if everybody is, it's, again, where it's easier to critique other people and never want to check in with ourselves or check ourselves. And so instead of kind of maybe ending the year or starting the year thinking about who do I need to cut or who didn't show up? For me, it's how have I been doing as a friend? Who have I showed up for? Who could I do better for? Who do I need to apologize to? Who do I need to check in with? So I think if we all responded to friendship in that way, then we would be more caring, and then people would be intentional about being a good friend, not just trying to collect people who are good to them.
- [20:48]
B
Definitely having that reciprocity there. And I've seen a lot of conversations where people talk about this kind of weaponization of, like, therapy talk, which I think a lot of people are. I'm sure you have seen a lot. Unfortunately, people, you know, will not necessarily show up for people in the name of, I don't want to say self care, but they will just use different Reasons for why they don't show up for people in their community and life. Life's I think on a large scale a lot of people are going through so much right now to a point where it's understandable. And there's also a point where it's like sometimes showing up for people, sometimes community, sometimes nurturing your relationships isn't always comfortable and convenient, but it's worth it. And I think finding the balance between those things is really important.
- [21:38]
C
Yeah, such a good point. I think when we're first exposed to information, we can over apply it, right? So now people's buzzword is boundaries. So it's like I'm doing my boundaries, but it really can become harsh, it can become uncaring, it can become self isolating, it can become self absorbed when it's a good concept, but can be over applied. And so for us as we're growing to. I think that keyword you said is balance. You know, where is the balance? Because in friendship and relationship, even in society now there's this push of like if it makes people uncomfortable and sometimes it's growing pains, sometimes seeing myself as uncomfortable, sometimes being stretched because I'm used to being around people who agree with me and now someone is challenging me. So to not automatically say a stretching means that I need to run. Sometimes I have to lean into the stretching because it's making me a better person or this is the first person who has challenged my ideas or my ability to actually grow.
- [22:54]
B
That's a really good distinction. I do think in some ways we can really resist being stretched or resist any form of discomfort. Something else that I think has been really prevalent, especially since the pandemic is just a sense of like relative loneliness that I think a lot of people feel. The epidemic of loneliness we hear people talk about and I think, I think we also hear people talk about that a lot on gendered lines, which I think there can be truth to. But I also think is something that collectively a lot of people have felt. And so I would love to talk more about why relational wellness is so important for overall wellness. And if people are feeling maybe a deeper sense of loneliness and what can be done so that they can work through that to support their overall wellness.
- [23:42]
C
So in psychology, you know, things that help our mental health, it's called a protective factor. And social support or community connection, relationships are protective factors that when we have not just it's not about the quantity and it's also not about acquaintances, but actual like intimate connections that those can protect when we're Dealing with depression, dealing with anxiety. It can be protective around addictions, you know, and big life changes and shifts like, you know, you moving to a new city. Moving is a big stressor. But when you have community that can help, it becomes a buffer. So it shows up well for us in terms of our mental health and also our physical health. And there are different types of social support. There's the emotional social support, but then you can also have people who are like problem solvers. Like some of your family or friends might not be warm, fuzzy, but they can help you figure it out. And so that is so helpful, it makes a difference. And then we also have instrumental support, like if you were short on your rent, is there someone who would help you? If you needed some help with childcare, do you have someone who could help with that? And that kind of mutual way where we look out for each other. So it's really important. And a lot of times people can wonder how can I be lonely if I'm around a lot of people? Or how can I be lonely when I'm on social media all day? But it is the idea of do I feel known, right? Do people like know me, accept me, do I feel like I actually belong? And for that to happen it requires the risk of opening up and the risk of being seen. Because some of us, there's a tension, self sabotage where I desire it, but I'm afraid of it and so I block it, right? So people who want to engage me in conversation or let's meet up, you know, I'm always busy but yet I'm lonely, right?
- [25:57]
A
I am all about having a consistent daily routine. And one part of my day that I never skip is drinking my water with Element. Element has been my go to electrolyte drink mix for years and I have it every day to stay hydrated and balanced. It has made such a big difference in how I feel. Whether it's keeping my energy up during workouts, recovering faster after exercise, or just staying hydrated on busy days. It's one of those things I rely on to help me feel my best. Now what I love about Element is it has a science backed ratio of sodium, potassium and magnesium, which are the electrolytes your body needs without any of the sugar fillers or artificial stuff that you don't. Now during the winter we don't necessarily prioritize hydration as much as we should. We think of it as a summer thing, but we are still working up a sweat during the winter. Whether you're working out, I know I like to do more hot yoga, more sauna this time of year, and with that comes a lot of sweat. So I like to still be mindful of replenishing my electrolytes. Now. I also have to say for Element, the flavors are amazing. Some of my favorites are the grapefruit salt, the watermelon salt, and the citrus salt, and I find that they help me actually finish my water goals each day because they taste so good that I want to keep drinking it. So I'll usually put a packet into a giant glass or bottle of water to drink throughout the day, and I've noticed better energy levels and fewer headaches. If you've been curious about trying Element, now's the perfect time. Right now they're offering my listeners a free sample pack with any purchase. Just go to drinkelement.com balanceless to claim yours. That'S-R-I-N k l M-N-T.com balanced less this episode is brought to you by Neurosleep and Recharge Sleep is everything. When you don't get good or enough sleep, it has such a big impact on how you feel. But sometimes I need a little help winding down and relaxing, and I finally found something that's been helping me so much. Neurosleep and Recharge Melt Away Mints these mints are designed by sleep experts with clinically proven ingredients to help you regulate your sleep cycle and wake up feeling refreshed, no drowsiness involved, and it has been a total game changer for me. I have been in a season of life where I have just been so busy. I'm going to events almost every night and sometimes I feel wired when I finally get home and it's time to go to bed. So about 30 minutes before I want to go to sleep, I'll have a mint and it helps me wind down without feeling drowsy. The next day.
- [28:31]
B
You just put it in your mouth.
- [28:32]
A
It immediately melts and you're ready to take on some good sleep. I've been taking the nightberry flavor with 5 milligrams of melatonin, which is clinically shown to regulate your body's circadian rhythm. It's formulated with a botanical blend of chamomile, lemon balm, elderberry and passion flower to promote relaxation, and when I take one before bed, my sleep is on point. If you're ready for better sleep, head to neurogum.com and use the code balance less for 15 off your first order of sleep and Recharge Melt Away Mints. That's Neurogum spelled N E U R O G U M and use the code balanced less for 15% off your first order. Get your best sleep yet. Your body will thank you.
- [29:27]
B
There's also been this kind of popularization of, like, I want to be invited, but I don't want to go, or, like, I want to be in the house all the time, you know, reading my Kindle or whatever, which I love to read my Kindle. And you can do that all the time. And I do think in some ways, we have gotten to a point where it can be a little unhealthy.
- [29:47]
C
That's right. I actually had a friend recently say, you know, they kept turning down their group of friends, and then they were starting to get anxious about, like, if I keep saying no, maybe they're gonna stop inviting me. And I want them to invite me. I'm just not ready to go yet. And so for us to. Sometimes in psychology, there are different approaches. One is called behavioral. And so with behavioral psychology, instead of waiting until I feel better, I begin to act as if. And as I begin to do, then the emotions can switch sometimes to catch up with my actions. So I think all of us can think of times where you didn't really feel like going, and then you went and had a good time. Right. Now, sometimes it can happen the other way where you're like, I should have stayed home. But there are times where I took the risk. I stretched myself, and, you know, it was. It felt nourishing to me. It felt good to me. And so to not always go to. If our automatic. If our go to is always no to say, let me practice giving some more yeses and just showing up with. Let me say, you don't always have to stay the whole time or do everything but finding that middle ground.
- [31:05]
B
Yeah. Yeah. I love that behavioral practice. It's. It. I think, like, validates this idea of showing up as who you want to be, even if you're not fully there yet. Like, the doing is what helps you get there.
- [31:17]
C
Right. Right. You know, an example that's not social is sometimes if people are depressed, hygiene becomes a big issue because they don't just don't have the energy to get up. And so, you know, I said to a client who wasn't showering, instead of waiting until you feel better, take a shower. And while you're in the water. Right. Let that water and that aroma hit you. And that could, like, lift your spirit. So sometimes it's about pushing through what I don't feel like, especially because if I'm depressed or anxious. I'm not gonna feel like anything. Feeling. Feel like doing anything. But in the doing, I am kind of retraining my nervous system.
- [32:01]
B
So helpful. I think oftentimes, in so many instances, we wait for the feeling to take action.
- [32:06]
C
That's right.
- [32:07]
B
Trying the action to create the feeling.
- [32:09]
C
Yes. Yeah. And that can be a gift. You know, sometimes when you're depressed, you don't want to answer the phone. And, yeah, some people you're not going to feel like talking to, but certain people, if you picked up, even if you all didn't talk long, it could be healing.
- [32:25]
B
Definitely. Definitely. I'd love to talk about some of the nuances and differences between how we nurture our relationship with ourselves and also ways we nurture our relationships with other people.
- [32:41]
C
Nourishing and nurturing ourselves and doing that for other people requires an honesty. Right. So with myself, do I dare to tell myself the truth about how I'm really feeling? Right. Because sometimes we do public relations to other people. There are also times we lie to ourselves. Like, I'm good, I'm good. Meanwhile, we're exhausted, we're depressed, we're anxious, we're insecure, we're grieving. But like, oh, I'm fine. So at the heart of a healthy relationship with myself is for me to begin to tell myself the truth. And that also is a core element of healthy relationships with other people. Like, who do I not do public relations with? Who am I my full, honest, authentic self with? Because that's the foundation of real intimacy. You know, we can feel like people don't know us or accept us, but we have not revealed ourselves. And also, we can't reveal to them what we have not revealed to ourselves because we don't know ourselves. So spending that time and grace, you know, grace with ourselves and grace with other people is another important part of that relationship, is can I accept myself and love myself with my imperfections and not be so harsh with myself? Right. And the same with my friends. Sometimes people will glorify harshness and say, like, I'm just a truth teller.
- [34:21]
B
It's like, you're mean, you're mean, you're mean, you're rude.
- [34:23]
C
Right? Yes. And I can be a truth teller and tell it with compassion. Right. And you can feel the difference when someone is saying something to hurt you or to boost themselves or they're saying a hard truth because they care. It feels very different.
- [34:43]
B
Absolutely.
- [34:44]
A
You can tell.
- [34:45]
B
You can tell when people are delivering a message a certain way. And I think, to your earlier point, you can also tell when there's a guard up with people and there's a wall that's kind of preventing that intimacy. And even if sometimes we don't articulate it, I do think oftentimes, if there is a disconnect with how we feel with people or a ghosting or whatever, it's because subconsciously we can feel some sort of disconnect.
- [35:10]
C
Yeah. And I would say, you know, not only the honesty about ourselves, but honesty about our issues with people. Right.
- [35:19]
B
Yeah.
- [35:20]
C
Sometimes we don't say anything and the resentment is growing. Right. And people have no idea. And I know for many of us, we're like, well, they should know. Right. And we feel like, you know, well, we wish often people could read our minds that we didn't. Well, I shouldn't have to say it, but honestly, sometimes different life experience, different personality, sometimes people really have no idea. So for me to be willing to speak it and then see how they respond, some people won't care that that's where we are. And some people will actually adjust and say, oh, I'm glad you told me that. I didn't know that that's how you thought about it or that's how you felt. Just because we're different.
- [36:06]
A
Yeah.
- [36:06]
B
And in situations I've had like that, bringing things like that up, maybe they'll then share like, oh, this is actually what's really going on. Here's why. You know, I was doing xyz, and then it helps you create a better level of understanding with one another.
- [36:21]
C
That's right. Yes. Because, you know, we create stories about. We create meaning. You know, it's like, they haven't called me in a week, and what's the story I tell myself about that? And then what is the actual story? And so being open to that. So people often say communication, and it is key. It's so important. Because without it, we're left repeating old stories that may or may not be true.
- [36:50]
B
And our brains are so good at that.
- [36:51]
C
Oh, so good. Filling in the blanks. It's like, I know, I know. It's like, no, you don't know. You don't know the fullness of this person. And so being open to a new story.
- [37:04]
B
Yeah. Also, while you were talking about the relationship to self and how it relates to our relationship with others, it made me think about the times in my life where I was the most judgmental of other people was when I was also the most judgmental of myself. And I was often, like, judging other people for the very same Things that I judged myself for, especially when I was younger. It's a big part of my growth as I've gotten older, has just been becoming less judgmental of people. But that really started with becoming less judgmental of myself. And I do think so many of the ways we treat ourselves is mirrored in how we treat others.
- [37:40]
C
So great example. It is, you know, harsh with myself, harsh with others, rejecting of myself, rejecting of others. And then sometimes it's the opposite where I abandon myself to prioritize others. Right. Or I put them on a pedestal and put myself in the gutter. So, you know, looking at what's my pattern? What's the relationship between my inner world and the way I show up in these spaces so that I can be free to create a new habit, which also requires grace. Because what I'm trying to change, often I will go to my go to when I'm stressed or when I'm anxious. And so the key is, can I see it quicker? Right? Do I see. So it may not be that I never do that old thing again, but maybe I see it as it's coming out of my mouth or right before, hopefully before I say it, I can feel like, oh, okay, that's my old thing. I'm gonna shift. Even though, like, my natural thing would. And sometimes my natural thing is to tell people off. Sometimes my natural thing is to shut down. And so I feel myself shutting down. And let me give myself permission to press through that. Even though it's uncomfortable, it's awkward, it's making me anxious, I still want to speak my truth.
- [39:05]
B
Yeah, absolutely.
- [39:11]
C
Foreign.
- [39:14]
A
We've all been there before. It's wash day, and as we're detangling, we're seeing more hair shedding and laying in the tub than we would like. That is why I started taking Nutrafol a year ago. It's helped reduce shedding and has supported my hair health from the inside out. Nutrafol is the number one dermatologist recommended hair growth supplement brand trusted by over 1 million people. See thicker, stronger, faster growing hair with less shedding in just three to six months. With Nutrafol, everyone's got root causes of hair thinning that are different. So one size fits all approaches don't necessarily work when it comes to hair health. Nutrafol has multiple formulas that are tailored to give your hair what it needs to grow throughout different stages of life, like postpartum and menopause. Nutrafol clinically tests their final formulations to ensure their efficacy. In a clinical study, 86% of women reported improved hair growth after taking Nutrafol Women Hair growth supplement for 66 months. Start your hair growth journey with Nutrafol For a limited time. Nutrafol is offering our listeners $10 off your first month subscription and free shipping. When you go to nutrafol.com and enter the promo code Balanced Less Find out why over 4, 500 healthcare professionals and stylists recommend Nutrafol for healthier hair. Nutrafol.com spelled n u t r a f o l.com promo code balanced less that's nutrafol.com promo code balanced Less we all know how important it is to be mindful with our money. But mindful doesn't always have to be restrictive. Life feels more expensive than ever and you deserve a way to manage your money without all the stress and second guessing. Ynab, spelled Y N A B is a life changing app that helps you do what you want with the money you have. You can use it to create a flexible, flexible plan for your money through the simple practice of giving every dollar a job, keeping you focused on the life you want. With ynab, you'll stop wondering where your money goes and start deciding where it will take you. So every week I like to sit down for what I call my money date on Fridays and I use YNAB to review where my money is going, what I've saved, and I make adjustments for anything coming up just to make sure my money is going to all the places that I want it to go. It's super simple but so effective and it's helped me feel so much more in control of my finances. YNAB helps you give every dollar a job so you can plan for the things you need and the things you want. It's not about cutting back on having fun. It's truly about balance and the results speak for themselves. 92% of YNAB users feel less stressed about money and the Average person saves $600 in their first two months. So by the end of the year, that's a savings of up to $6,000, which is amazing. Listeners of this show can claim an exclusive three month trial with no credit card required@ynab.com balanced again, that's an exclusive three month free trial@ynab.com balanced.
- [42:32]
B
I know one of my biggest challenges and this is still just an area of growth because I don't want to make it sound like I'm so perfect at everything because nobody is.
- [42:40]
C
It's a journey.
- [42:41]
B
It is one of the biggest things that I'm Unlearning related to all of that is the need to be right or, like, the desire to be right. And I think that's also where a lot of that judgmentalness came from, was like being the one to say, I told you so, or being able to, like, clock it. You know, that's what we all say, clock it. And I'm getting to a point where it's like, I don't want to clock anything. I don't. I don't really need to be right.
- [43:01]
C
Okay.
- [43:01]
B
I was right about this thing that I observed.
- [43:03]
C
Right.
- [43:04]
B
And now I've created a negative situation with another person. Maybe they were going to learn and see that on their own.
- [43:10]
C
Yes. What.
- [43:11]
B
What does being right. What does clocking something first get us at the end of the day?
- [43:15]
C
Right. It is that emotional labor and actually the quest for validation. Right. Like that for myself and for them and for whoever's observing. Like, I need them to know or believe that I am this person versus that humility. As you said of, like, we're all a work in progress, and I give them grace, and I give myself grace so that we can evolve and grow. And I don't have to do that labor of carrying. People who are walking themselves their own journey and their own process and timing is important. It may not be for them now, in this moment, to make that shift. You know, I remember having a conversation with someone years ago, and as you said, they got very upset. And then years later they came back and said, you were right. Yeah, it's okay. Right. So to be able to release that, to operate in humility and to not, as you named, not make it the priority or the hunger for the validation that my care for them is greater than my need to stroke or encourage myself.
- [44:41]
B
That's so good.
- [44:42]
C
That's so good. And I love that piece of, you know, the impact on the relationship. And you'll. You learn your friends. Right. Some people really are in a place where they want to hear things, and some people, they don't. That it's going to be disruptful and hurtful for them. And a part of that can be observation. But I think it's also helpful to have conversations with friends or with partners about, you know, what we're gonna speak to each other, what we're gonna share with each other. Cause the ones who have that emotional capacity would say, like, you know, I don't want you to hold back. If you observe something or see something or have a concern about something, I want us to talk about it. And then there are some people who.
- [45:35]
B
Really do not, who just have to figure stuff out on their own. And I do think sometimes it can be challenging when you're in community with someone and you do care about them, to maybe see someone make a mistake over and over or to see somebody date people who just does not get their worth and you see them being mistreated. It can be hard to know how to be supportive. It's like, okay, you don't wanna be harping on them that I told you so person. But also it's painful to watch people who care about be in bad situations.
- [46:09]
C
Yes.
- [46:10]
B
How should people navigate that in a healthy way?
- [46:13]
C
I think especially if people are in a unhealthy, perhaps even abusive, whether emotionally or physically, financially relationship, I think it's important to speak truth. You may need to take space, but to not totally give up on them. Because when people are in a relationship like that, their partner is telling them, nobody cares about you but me. Right. And trying to isolate them. And so sometimes then it's effective if, like, all the family and friends are tired of it and now you really are just isolated with this person. So even if I say, like, oh, I can't spend a lot of time hanging out with them together because seeing that dynamic, as you said, is very painful, I'm also going to let them know I'm still here for you and I still want goodness for you. Yeah. It is important to know that we can love with space.
- [47:13]
B
Absolutely. Yeah. Giving people the space to grow, come to their own conclusions.
- [47:18]
C
That's right.
- [47:19]
B
Yeah. So I would really love to also talk to you about the intersection of faith and mental health. And I feel like you are just like the perfect person to talk about this with, with all of the rich experiences that you've had. I do think that in our community in particular, sometimes those two things can be at odds. Like if you seek mental health support, then you don't have faith or leaning on your faith is enough. And then for some people it may not be. And there can be a lot of guilt and shame around that. Can we talk more about how faith and mental health support don't have to be mutually exclusive?
- [47:56]
C
That's right. The idea that if you are a person of faith or have strong faith that you'll always have joy, that you'll always have peace, that you'll never have any challenges, is a lie. And for those who are Christian, I would say it's not even biblical. I think I can go forth and say across religious traditions, it's not accurate. So when you look at, you know, the actual teachings, when you look at the examples, people were fully human and had human emotions along with their faith. And so this idea, I call it an emotional prosperity gospel, which is like, you know, if you're faith filled, you know, then you're Jessica, then every day, have a great day. And the reality is there is lament, there is grief, there is worry. They say, like, too blessed to be stressed. Everybody I know has been blessed and could be stressed at the same time because you have different categories of your life. Right. So I may be super blessed in this area and then this other area. There are some serious concerns. And so for us to remove the guilt trip and needing there to be more transparency in sacred spaces so that people don't feel shamed into silence, but to be able to say, I can pray, I can attend services, I can read holy texts and also have a therapist. Right. You know, the way I think about it is, you know, if people are having leaky faucet at home, we wouldn't say, like, don't call a plumber pray. Right.
- [49:41]
B
We just wouldn't do that.
- [49:43]
C
Who would do that? I hope you wouldn't do that. Right. And then, you know, if my tooth is hurting, I'm not gonna say, like, I'm not going to the dentist. I'm just gonna lay my hands on it. No, you're going to the dentist. So to then make people feel guilty about getting mental health support, I think a lot of times there is also an ignorance, a lack of awareness. Some people have never had, for example, major depression. So if they have only been sad before, they're trying to give advice to someone with clinical depression based on, like, their one day of sadness. Right. And I always say, if your advice starts with all you need to do is right, then, like, you don't grasp it. Right. So for us to be a lot more tender and gentle with each other, because we actually not only can drive people away from spiritual and religious spaces, but also can make people who are in those spaces feel inadequate, where that's not love, that's not love, that's not care. And we're making people worse.
- [50:54]
B
Yeah, definitely. I think for a lot of us, there has been this notion of, like, if you're feeling something, if you're experiencing something, it's like you can pray it away. But sometimes, like, therapy can be the answer to the prayer.
- [51:08]
C
Yes.
- [51:08]
B
And they don't have to be.
- [51:10]
C
That's right.
- [51:11]
B
It doesn't have to threaten it. I think sometimes that that is the rub is it feels like, okay, if you're getting help in these ways, it threatens your faith.
- [51:18]
C
Yes.
- [51:19]
B
And it doesn't have to be that way.
- [51:21]
C
And it's not a competition, you know, it's not fair to make people feel like they have to choose. I remember I had a client who was a long term trauma survivor, childhood trauma, now was an adult. And her pastor found out she was in therapy and got angry because he said he'd already prayed for her. And it's like, are you like that ego driven that because this person is getting support, that somehow that's an insult to your prayer? So. And likewise, I should say, because often we will blame religious leaders, but there are some mental health providers who are very negative toward faith. Yeah. And will say that it's not people taking responsibility or say that it's just something that creates shame. And we need more people who are the bridge and who are respectful of holistic wellness. There is a role to play for that spiritual healing and support. And there's a role to play for that psychological piece. When I did my masters of divinity, there was one class on like pastoral care and counseling. And I'm going to say the whole semester we talked about grief, which is important. And every minister will have to do funerals and all of that. But like, there was no mention of bipolar disorder, no mention of schizophrenia, no mention of addiction. And so. And now people are like, put out in the world as the pastor. Right. Likewise, I've been in a lot of psychology training programs where they don't even mention spirituality. I had a student say to come to me once because she knew I was involved in faith communities. She had a client share that. The client was fasting and the student therapist wanted to know, was that an eating disorder? And I'm like, no, hey, let me tell you what fasting is. So. But if we don't know each other's world, then we can create these. You know, we can pathologize each other or demonize each other from a lack of understanding.
- [53:33]
B
Right. And that can create a lot of harm and just a lot more silos.
- [53:36]
C
Yes, yes, absolutely. So we need to encourage people to get all the things. You know, one of the pieces I am often mindful of is most therapists are going to see you once a week, maybe every other week, if you're in distress, maybe twice a week. But if people have a spiritual sacred community, they can see them all week long. And so there's a gift in that. People who will show up for you, sit on the phone with you have programming multiple days of the week. And so we want people to be able to get it all.
- [54:15]
B
Definitely. And I think in a lot of communities of faith, some of the biggest benefits are that sense of belonging, that sense of community, that sense of people who show up for you is. That's such a huge piece of it.
- [54:29]
C
That's right. It is. The community support, the encouragement, and they feed different needs. Right. If someone goes to their pastor about an issue, they may give them some encouraging scriptures, they might pray with them, they may give them some advice, and that's helpful. And then if you go to a therapist or a psychologist, they're going to give you some additional things. So it's not a either or. Or that this was a waste and this was not. You know, it feeds different parts of you.
- [55:05]
B
Yeah, absolutely. And I love how we kind of accidentally brought it back full circle to that feeling of community and support. I didn't even do that on purpose.
- [55:14]
C
That's true. Look, full circle. Yeah. It's healing.
- [55:18]
B
It is.
- [55:19]
C
It's healing. So for us to take the risk of reaching out and building community, and if the community or friends you have are very surface, to try to go deeper, sometimes people want greater intimacy, but everyone's, like, staying on that surface level. But I think openness can be contagious. Right. When you have one of those friends who just, like, says whatever, it encourages you to say, like, what's really in your heart, which you may not have said. Yeah.
- [55:48]
B
Sometimes you can kind of open the floodgates in a good way. If you're waiting for one person to go there and you're like, oh, good, me too.
- [55:53]
C
Yeah, exactly. Me too. Absolutely. Yeah.
- [55:57]
B
So, Dr. Tama, you also just came out with your latest book, Matter of the Heart. Can you tell us more about it?
- [56:04]
C
Yes. I am so excited about this book. So it's Matters of the Healing youg Relationship with self and those you love. And one of the most, I'm gonna say, common topics that people write to me about or come to therapy about are their relationships. There are relationships with family issues with friends, and then, of course, romantic partners. And a foundational piece is our relationship with ourselves. And so instead of separating those out, I decided to talk about them all together. And I'm so excited for people to be able to get this resource. Throughout the book, I use case examples so that people can know they're not by themselves, that other people face those challenges and questions. And the book can help you to see your patterns, to see why you may be showing up the way you're showing up and then ways that you can interrupt it and shift out of that cycle to have some breakthroughs so that we can have healthier relationships. It makes such a huge difference in our lives. And many times we may give up on love or give up on friendship because we've been hurt, but when we are in that place of giving up, we're also denying ourselves the opportunity to be nourished and to be loved. So I want people to feel empowered so that they can reactivate the parts of them that may be dormant, that may be sleeping, and also to be able to shift in our choosing. Sometimes we make a bad choice and then we're so convinced we need to fix it and make it work, but we may need to choose differently for ourselves and to choose ourselves and then that would upgrade our relationships.
- [58:07]
B
Yeah, most definitely. I love that affirmation of even if we make a less than ideal choice, we don't have to sit in it. We don't have to punish ourselves by sitting in it.
- [58:17]
C
Yes. And I think unfortunately, when relationships end, people often think of that as a failure. Where sometimes a goodbye is a success. It's a win to say really for both people, it can be a win. So to be willing to tell yourself the truth of when it's not right and to know when it's not repairable. Sometimes, like, you know, we need a conversation or we need to work on it, but sometimes we need to release. And the affirmation that I like is release to receive. Release to receive. What am I willing to let go of to make room for what actually is aligned?
- [58:59]
B
Beautiful. Thank you so much, Dr. Taman. We'll make sure that the book is linked in the show notes so everyone can read it. It'll be out when this episode comes out and it's just an amazing resource. Thank you so much for joining me.
- [59:10]
C
Thank you. Thank you for having me. I enjoyed speaking with you and really hope and trust that the book will be a blessing.
- [59:17]
B
Absolutely. Thank you. Oh, Huge thanks to Dr. Tama for joining me for today's episode. I hope you loved that conversation as much as I did. Please make sure that you check out her new book, Matters of the Heart, which we will link in the description of this episode. It is a fantastic read, a beautiful resource for anybody who wants to nurture their relationship with self and with other people. If you enjoyed this episode, please make sure that you are subscribed to the show. You can subscribe on Apple, on Spotify, on YouTube and leave us a five.
- [59:50]
A
Star review while you're at it.
- [59:51]
B
It really helps the show, and I appreciate hearing from you. Thank you so much for tuning in and I will see you next week. Please note that this episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to in this episode.