← She's So Lucky
She's So Lucky
How to Beat the Odds: Amy DuBois Barnett on Starting Over, Betting on Yourself, and Winning
00:54:54
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- [00:01]
Amy Du Bois Barnett
The following podcast is a Dear Media Production.
- [00:12]
Mackenzie
Here on she's so Lucky. We talk a lot about finding your thing, but what if the real flex is knowing that you can embody so many things over the journey of your career and your lucky life? If you've been listening, watching, and paying attention to our latest episodes, you know that we've been talking a lot about you. So the business of you, investing in you, betting on you, what it looks like to build a career, a life, and a sense of self that actually reflects who you are as you grow. And one idea that keeps coming up is this concept of a portfolio career, not just being one thing, but allowing your work to expand and evolve with you. And today's guest embodies that in a way that feels both aspirational and deeply real. Amy Du Bois Barnett has built a career across journalism, editorial, leadership, media, and now authorship. And not in a straight line, but chapters. Chapters where she chose to begin again, to shift, to take risks, and to trust that each version of herself was leading her somewhere intentional. We also talk about her new novel, if I Ruled the World, which she'd been working on for nearly two decades, which, in a culture that rewards speed and constant output, feels like a radical choice in itself. This episode is really about what it means to take your time, to create work that you're proud of and to trust that your path doesn't have to make sense to anyone else, as long as it makes sense to you. So if you ever felt like you're changing too much, starting over too often, or moving too slow, this conversation is going to meet you exactly where you are. Amy, welcome to the show.
- [01:52]
Amy Du Bois Barnett
Thank you so much for having me.
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Mackenzie
I'm so excited to have you for so many reasons. One, you wrote a fabulous book that released earlier this year, if I Rule the World, which I actually credit for helping me get out of a reading slump. I was in a mean reading slump for, like all of 2025. Oh, and if I Rule the World was the first book that I read in a while that I, like, enjoyed. Like the second half of 2025. I was just struggling through books because I was forcing myself to read things that are just not my jam.
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Amy Du Bois Barnett
Right, right, right. I totally get you.
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Mackenzie
It got me back into reading and I feel like I'm now myself again when it comes to, like, how I like to consume books.
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Amy Du Bois Barnett
Oh my God, I love that. Look at me out here, you know, contributing to culture and society, helping us come out one reading slump at a time.
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Mackenzie
Exactly. On the show, we do kind of monthly themes that we like to center our conversations around. And so for this month, we're talking about betting on ourselves. And I feel like you're somebody who can speak to that well, and I'm excited to dig into that with you.
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Amy Du Bois Barnett
Yeah, that is, I'm gonna say entire jam like, I am a world class manifestor and a significant part of that is the way in which I bet on myself. So this is a fabulous theme. I would love to talk about it,
- [03:02]
Mackenzie
see how it all comes together. You're in the right place. Can we start off maybe with an example of how you've bet on yourself?
- [03:10]
Amy Du Bois Barnett
It's a hallmark of really my entire life, both personal and professional, because one of the things that I learned early in my life is that it's really outside of your comfort zone where you evolve and where you become the woman that you're meant to be. And I, the way I sort of shorthand it is I say fear is growth. And I really believe that's one of the core philosophical tenets by which I walk through this world. And when you really understand that fear is growth, that when you are afraid, it means that you are growing the most as a person, it allows you to take more risks. Right. And the second part of that is I very strongly believe that the universe does not give you opportunities that you don't think you deserve. So if you don't think you deserve the job, you know, the book deal, the partner, right. Then the universe is not going to open that door for you. So what I do is part of my manifestation technique is that I get comfortable with the idea of being uncomfortable and being afraid. And then I talk to myself in a way that I'm like, okay, you deserve this opportunity.
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Mackenzie
And.
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Amy Du Bois Barnett
And that has allowed me so much mobility and adventure and frankly, achievement in my life that I don't know that I would have, you know, been able to get to if I didn't walk through the world with these thoughts. And my most recent example of betting on myself is walking away from corporate media in 2023 and saying, okay, I'm gonna spend a year writing this novel and I'm going to bet that I can become a storyteller. After my 25 plus years as a journalist and as a media executive, I can be a storyteller.
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Mackenzie
And.
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Amy Du Bois Barnett
And everybody thought I was not. So, like, debut novels make no money, you know? What are you talking about? Your son is going to college in a year. Like, you have lost your mind. And I was like, no, this is what I'm doing. I know I can do it, you know, and, you know, my book went to auction at the top of 2024, and I ended up getting a amazing two book deal with my wonderful publisher, Flatiron. And now I also have a development deal for the television adaptation with Lee Daniel set up at Hulu. So that was my most recent example of the way in which I bet on myself and then, you know, put intentional energy behind my goal and then also did the work.
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Mackenzie
That is such an amazing example. And I also think it's important in that story the level of self trust that you had that you just described. You were like, actually, I feel like there's another chapter, no pun intended, another chapter for me. Even if other people don't get it or try to talk you out of it, it's like you know yourself well enough to know what you're capable of and what you're ready to try next, right?
- [05:46]
Amy Du Bois Barnett
I love that self. I never phrased it that way, self trust, but that really is what it is. It's like, I believe in myself. I believe deeply in myself, and part of that stems from the way that I love myself. You know, I came to this also kind of early in life where I realized, you know, it's one thing to say everybody's like, oh, you love yourself. You know, nobody's gonna love you like you love yourself. But that's very true. But it's a pat. It just doesn't, you know, it doesn't really resonate. But I processed early that actually loving yourself isn't just like loving yourself. It's actually loving all of yourself. It's loving every part of yourself. It's getting really comfortable in your own skin and processing that this is what you have. Like, I really understood. I was like, okay, wait, this is what I have. For better or for worse, this is what I got. So I'm gonna walk through my life with this and so I better love it. Every piece of it. Every piece of it. Physically, every piece of it. Intellectually, emotionally. And when you really get to that point where you are so comfortable in your own skin that you love every piece of yourself, it really allows you to. Or it facilitates trusting yourself. It facilitates the confidence that you need to walk out on that limb and know that you got yourself.
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Mackenzie
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think when it comes to conversations around, like, loving your whole self, it's something that I'm still working on and I feel like we all kind of of work on it for a while.
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Amy Du Bois Barnett
It's a journey. I'm on a Continual journey. Don't get me wrong. It's not like I'm like, I've got all the answers fully. Not what it is. I guess maybe part of it too, actually. It's like understanding that you're on a journey. Like, I am continually trying to be a better partner, a better mom, a better media executive when I was in that role, a better storyteller, a better friend, a better strategist, a better. Just whatever, fill in the blank. I'm really always. And I guess hopefully continue to be always on that journey.
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Mackenzie
Yeah. Yeah. How do you navigate loving your shadows? Because I think it can be very easy for us to love the parts of ourselves that are like the light, that we get complimented for, that we get praised for, that are affirmed a lot. But I think loving the shadows within myself is something that I struggle with.
- [07:52]
Amy Du Bois Barnett
We all do. I mean, it's not like it's so easy. I don't walk around all day long, like, ooh, I just love the part of me that's neurospicy and can't focus.
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Mackenzie
You know,
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Amy Du Bois Barnett
Sometimes I'm like, I really don't love that part. You know, I really think that at the end of the day, it is understanding that whatever it is you have is what you have. It's what you have. Your shadows are a part of you. And it's only in walking again through the world and accepting them and making them a part of you. The other piece of it is sometimes people believe that they're living right when they're happy. Like, when they're achieving things, when everything's going great, like they're on vacation and after a big achievement, I'm like, ooh, I'm really living. That's true. But you're also really living when you have a huge failure and a huge disappointment and a huge loss. That is also a part of life that is living. What's also kind of broadly helped me, as I look at all these moments in my life, is that I have had this big success. I'm living. I've had this big failure. Who I am really living. I. I've had a gain that's great. I've also had a loss. I'm living. I'm just. It's the full spectrum of things, because it's not just about when you're happy. It's also about everything that's gonna contribute to who you are as an individual. It's gonna make you more insightful, more evolved, more of a layered person. And usually those are the challenging moments in Your life. And that's also when you're living. You know what I mean? And that's also what often constitutes or creates some of the shadows in your life. You know what I mean? So I try my best. Nobody's perfect on this, but I try to let those moments layer into me and make me a more evolved and insightful and interesting person. And I'm like, ooh, I'm really living as I'm going through it.
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Mackenzie
I like that reframe, though. Something that I will kind of remind myself, or it might be my version of like, I'm really living in this moment is when something like that is happening. When I'm having maybe, like, a very human response to something, I'll be like, well, this is part of being a human. This is a difference between me and a tree or me. And maybe another living being that doesn't do all the things that I do is also these moments and these feelings and navigating them.
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Amy Du Bois Barnett
That's exactly. That's an awesome reframe, too. I'm gonna. I'm gonna, like, think about that too, because it's. It's true. This is how we're going to walk through the world, right? And when these human moments happen, when these things happen that are sort of less than the shiny things that people see on social media or the parts of life that are just more challenging, that are more emotionally like, racking, that are failures, that are disappointments, which we have all had. We have all had. You're the most successful person out there that you. You look at and you're like, oh, my God, what a glamorous, successful, fabulous person with their fabulous family and their, you know, bestselling books and their C suite jobs and their whatever the heck it is they. I can guarantee you have had some form of deep loss or failure or disappointment that has continued to shape them and made them able to have the other stuff that you're seeing that's visible, but there's some other current that's running underneath all of it.
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Mackenzie
And even I've had this perspective given recently just in meeting people that I admire and beginning to be in community with people that I really look up to and realizing that with kind of this level of success where we see the shiny things and the girl boss and the magazine cover with the blazer or whatever behind that, there's often, like, a lot happening under the surface where I'm in a group chat with, like, someone who I really admire and someone brought up, like, lawsuits, and she's just like, oh, yeah, I'm getting sued all the time. I always have a couple court cases going. And she said it almost like it was nothing, just because at the level that she's operating at, it's like, that's normal. Whereas for me, I'd be like, oh my God, I'd have anxiety, I would cry. But at that level that someone's playing at it, they have to tolerate different things.
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Amy Du Bois Barnett
I mean, it's exactly. There's that kind of thing, right, where the kind of level of being besieged is somewhat dictated by the level at which you're operating. And then there's also just the quiet things that people don't see, you know what I mean? For example, to get personal, my dad had an emergency open heart surgery at the end of May, and I spent basically almost five months in a near full time basis getting him through the surgery, the recovery, into rehab, and then I relocated him out to California. You don't see any of that on social media. You don't see the fact that I got behind on so many different deadlines because of that. It was expensive, it was stressful, it was all the things. You just don't see it. Do you know what I mean? It's things like that, I think again, contribute to you being evolved and insightful and make you strong. But also on the flip side, I try to be really empathetic because you have no idea what people are going through. You just don't. Whatever you see on Social is not the full story.
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Mackenzie
Absolutely. I think of it all like an iceberg where what we tend to see is what's happening on the surface and then under the surface there's like this big mass.
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Amy Du Bois Barnett
Exactly, exactly. Right.
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Mackenzie
I also don't necessarily think that people owe me their mass of stuff, that people can share what they want or what they don't. I think sometimes social media gets the this bad rap for being a little bit of a highlight reel. And maybe if people are being disingenuous, that's one thing. But I don't necessarily think that anyone is owed our mess if we choose to share it vulnerably. Like what you just shared. That is like a really kind, vulnerable thing to do. But I also don't think that we necessarily owe it to make other people feel better.
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Amy Du Bois Barnett
I totally agree with you there. But I think what happens is that when people don't understand that you're only seeing the tip of the iceberg, as it were.
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Mackenzie
Right.
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Amy Du Bois Barnett
Then I think for people who have less insight, it can appear as if somebody who is very successful or in a glamorous role. That's really the totality almost of their life. Right. And I think that can play in the minds of people and give them insecurities and just make people feel less than in very profound ways. So you and I might understand. That's all that we're, we're only seeing what people are showing us and then that's all they're, they need to be showing us. They don't need to be showing us everything that's happening under the, you know, the break of the water. Right. It can be tough as a society for folks who are coming up and not understanding that with all of those successes come all a lot of failures. With all of those gains come a lot of losses.
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Mackenzie
Yeah, that makes sense. That's why I think conversations like this are important.
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Amy Du Bois Barnett
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Mackenzie
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Amy Du Bois Barnett
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- [14:52]
Mackenzie
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- [14:57]
Amy Du Bois Barnett
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- [15:00]
Mackenzie
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Amy Du Bois Barnett
I have. I mean, I really took a circuitous route into media. What not everybody knows is that when I graduated from college, I actually went into finance. I thought I was going to be a lawyer and I was gonna do finance. I was on Wall street, actually, in one of those sort of corporate finance jobs that you do for two years before you either go to B school or you go to law school or whatever. I was liberal arts smart, and I always loved writing, but I didn't know. I just wasn't as focused. And then my mom passed away when I was 22 years old, and it really reshaped so many things. You know, it's a longer conversation, but it made me much more reliant on myself and much more focused on what I really want to do versus what other people were telling me to do. So I quit my job in finance and I actually went into fashion. I got a certificate in fashion merchandising from Parsons School of Design, and I was an assistant buyer for a department store in New York and quickly realized that working in liking fashion is very different than working in fashion. Just that wasn't my spiritual journey. And I moved to Ireland for a year, worked on my portfolio because I was like, I. What do you really love to do? And I was like, writing. That's what I've always wanted to do. I just want to be a storyteller. I want to write. Started writing in literature. Also hung out with a guy. That's another story. Ireland has an amazing history of writers, and so that was a great place to study. Built a portfolio, got into an MFA program and was working on creative writing. That's what I thought I was going to do for my life in my 20s. Like, I was in my mid, late 20s at that point, and I was like, oh, I'm going to be a novelist for my life. This is my, you know, my dream. And while I was in grad school, I won an award from the Hurst and Wright foundation for a short story that I wrote. And the person who presented me with the award was the then editor in chief of Essence magazine. And while I was in grad school, I needed to, like, I don't know, eat and have shelter. And so I was working. I Took my experience in fashion and leveraged it into a job working at a first luxury fashion, believe it or not, website. This is in the 90s, so. And then they launched a fashion magazine for which I became the managing editor. This is like the first wave of digital and this is, you know, I've got really good skincare, but I've been doing this for a minute. So I was working already in media, like in fashion, while I was almost full time, while I was in grad school. So when I got out, the EIC of ESSENCE offered me a job as the fashion and beauty features editor of Essence magazine. And that's what started me on this 25 year career in media. So I was working there for a couple of years. I got promoted, heading up their largest department and was working on a business plan for a magazine that would talk to me and my friends. I'm like almost 30 years old and that's what I want to do. Then I met the gentleman who had just acquired a magazine called Honey that was very similar to what I wanted to do. It just wasn't as focused as I would have liked. Met him, pitched him, kept pitching, doing proposal decks and all sorts of, you know, stuff. And then six months later, after like working on the proposal and what have you, he ended up giving me that job as editor in chief of Honey magazine. I was 30 years old. It was my first ever editor in chief role. And it was just very groundbreaking. The magazine itself was groundbreaking. And it was just a sort of watershed moment for me professionally. I was there for about three years, and then I got recruited by Time Inc. Which at the time owned Teen People magazine, which is the teen version of People.
- [22:12]
Mackenzie
I used to. I was subscribed.
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Amy Du Bois Barnett
There we go.
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Mackenzie
During those days.
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Amy Du Bois Barnett
Oh, my gosh. Okay. So I don't know if you remember. I do.
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Mackenzie
I remember your photo with a cute little blah mop. Yup.
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Amy Du Bois Barnett
So exactly when I was recruited to be editor in chief of Teen People magazine, I was the first ever black woman to run a major mainstream magazine in the country. So I did that. I was there for maybe another couple years and I left for a couple different reasons. In part because I was pregnant with my. And it was an unbelievable pressure cooker of a job. And I really was worried that I was not going to be able to be pregnant there. In a way that was healthy. And I also had a deal to write a nonfiction advice book for women. So I left and I did that. I'd also written 100 pages of before I Ruled the World. But we'll talk about that later. When that book finally came out, around the same time, got a job as the deputy editor in chief of Harper's Bazaar, which was another pretty groundbreaking moment. I mean, there were very few black people at the level of any masthead of any major fashion magazine. That was a pretty short lived job. I was actually replacing somebody who was out for six months and it got extended a little bit and I left to become the editor in chief of Ebony magazine. So that was my next job after Harper's Bazaar, which was the magazine of record for African Americans for so many decades. I mean, you, you know, honey magazine was probably like the fun of my career, but EBONY was the honor of my career. I mean, just to touch that, like, legacy brand that meant so much for our community for so long was just a huge, big deal. And then I redesigned it from top to bottom. It was its first top to bottom redesign in its 65 year at the time, 65 year history. So I redesigned Ebony, which was amazing. I was there for about four years and realized that, you know, unfortunately, magazines, as you referenced earlier, were becoming less and less powerful in the media landscape. And I just realized that if I wanted to continue my career as a journalist, as a media executive, as a voice for our community, that magazines was probably not the best way to go. So I relocated to Los Angeles and helped ESPN launch the Undefeated, which was a sports brand and culture brand. That's another longer story that ended in a spectacularly bad fashion.
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Mackenzie
Oh, no.
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Amy Du Bois Barnett
That was an unbelievably terrible story. I'll just say this one thing and then we could move on. But my boss was Jason Whitlock. I don't know if you know that name if you just don't worry about it, okay? You know, just, you know, utilize the Google and you will. The minute you utilize Google, you're like, oh, my God, you're going to call me later. You're going to be like, oh, my God, how did you even. How did you take it? We'll talk about it.
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Mackenzie
Okay?
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Amy Du Bois Barnett
But anyway, so that just put me into a digital space. That was the thing, right? So then after that, I worked with Byron Allen at his entertainment studios as their. I was the executive vice president of digital and their chief content officer of the Griot. And then went from there to bet, where I was the senior vice president of digital, ran all digital and social for bet. And then my last job in corporate media was as chief content officer for a company called Outside Interactive, where I ran 16 brands in the outdoor sports and outdoor Adventure space across tv, digital, print, even social apps, you know, so that was my last big job in corporate media. That's the job that I left in, in 2023. And I was like, I need to write.
- [25:27]
Mackenzie
Yes, I need to write.
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Amy Du Bois Barnett
Coming back to my original. That's exactly right. And then I came back to my original dream and I finished if I Ruled the World. And now here we are.
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Mackenzie
Oh, my goodness.
- [25:36]
Amy Du Bois Barnett
So that's my story. There we go.
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Mackenzie
That is actually such an amazing story. And I feel like within that there were so many examples of you betting on yourself at different points along the way. Do you feel like there was any one of those bets that really was the big turning point to your trajectory, or did they all kind of compound?
- [25:56]
Amy Du Bois Barnett
They all compounded on a certain level. But I do think my first really big bet was damn near accosting, you know, the dude, because I ran into him, the guy who, who owned Honey magazine. I literally ran into him in the lobby of essence. I'll never forget that moment. Actually. I was very. Long story short, it was like a U shaped lobby and you could cut through the waiting area to get from one side of this huge floor to another. And I. I was the lifestyle director at the time, which is, again, I was running the largest department, essence. But I was working on the business plan for a Honey magazine, like, you know, brand. I cut through the lobby and I see this gentleman. His name is Keith Clingsales. I see him in the lobby and I recognize him, right, Because I'm clocking all the people in media. I walk through the other lobby, I close the door, and I stand there for a second. And I was like, wait a minute. I really, I was. I remember to this day, I was like, go back. And I turn back around, I walked into the lobby, he's sitting down. He's obviously waiting to speak with somebody at essence, you know, for maybe a partnership, who knows? I stuck my hand in his face. I mean, literally, like, he's sitting down, I'm standing over him, and I'm nervous. I'm 29, like, sweating profusely, probably. I'm like, hi, I'm Amy Barnett, and I have an idea for a magazine like Honey and I would love to talk to you. And he's looking at me, I'm shaking my hand, like in his face. And he's like, okay. I mean, he was very nice to me, though. Cause I was obviously nervous, but he took me seriously. You know what I mean? He was like, okay, well, let's talk about it. That was When I took that huge leap, it was a massive example of betting on myself, because I could have just kept going and been like, oh, wow, look who that was in the lobby. That was amazing. Wow. You know what I mean? And just never turned back around. But it was me turning back around and introducing myself and sticking my hand in this nice man's face that started me on my trajectory, really, as an editor in chief.
- [27:38]
Mackenzie
Yeah. Ugh. I love that story. And I think I've had instances where maybe I could have been on the cusp of moments like that, and I kind of chicken out or don't know what to say. And then I look back on it.
- [27:51]
Amy Du Bois Barnett
You have said something so much time. I mentor a lot of women and I talk about betting on yourself because if we don't bet on ourselves, like, who will? It really is about us. I take it to the personal. I have walked up to my last. I'm gonna say four or five boyfriends, you know, my. My partner to whom I am engaged, who I've been with for 10 years, I walked up to him at a party. You know, it's again, another example of betting on yourself, you know, and most women just, you know, I tell the story and people are like, you did what? How did you possibly. Why did you. Isn't that. Didn't you feel. And I was like, yeah, I feel good. I'm engaged to be married. I feel real good about that decision. You know what I mean? Like, I think it's understanding that if you take your ego out of it, at least on a personal level, on a professional level, sometimes it's hard. But if you sort of divorce the outcome a little bit from the act of betting on yourself, at least initially, then it allows you the freedom to do it, to at least see what that feels like. You know what I mean?
- [28:54]
Mackenzie
I'm inspired. Very inspired to next time say something.
- [28:58]
Amy Du Bois Barnett
Yes. That first contact, if you will. What is there to lose?
- [29:02]
Mackenzie
Right?
- [29:03]
Amy Du Bois Barnett
There's nothing to lose. You know what I mean? There just isn't, you know, minimally, you know, in a worst case scenario, somebody will be like, go away. Yeah, okay. You know, we just weren't meant to be friends.
- [29:14]
Mackenzie
Yeah.
- [29:15]
Amy Du Bois Barnett
I mean, but in a best case scenario, you will have opened a door to an opportunity that may be even different than the one that you initially envisioned. I mean, you just never know.
- [29:30]
Mackenzie
My name is Mackenzie, and I started a GoFundMe for the adoptive mother of a nonverbal autistic child. The mother had lost her job because she wasn't able to find adequate care for this autistic child. So she really needed some help with living expenses, paying some back bills. So I launched a GoFundMe Fund Me to help support them during this crisis. And we raised about $10,000 within just a couple of months. I think that the surprising thing was by telling a clear story and just like really being very clear about what we needed, we had some really generous donations from people who were really moved by the situation that this family was struggling with. GoFundMe is the world's number one fundraising
- [30:19]
Amy Du Bois Barnett
platform, trusted by over 200 million people.
- [30:22]
Mackenzie
Start your GoFundMe today at gofundme.com that's gofundme.com gofundme.com this podcast is supported by GoFundMe. One of the most freeing realizations I've ever had is realizing that not everything is going to work for me, but when I find something that does, I stick with it. That sounds simple, but when it comes to hair, it took me a really long time to understand it. I was trying everything. Different routines, different products, and when my hair still felt dry or wasn't growing the way I wanted, I thought that I was doing something wrong when really I just wasn't using products made for my texture. Enter Baskin Lather. They've specifically formulated their products for textured hair and you can actually feel the difference. I've been using their stimulating scalp and hair balm. It's really nourishing, it helps reduce breakage, and it gives my hair shine without weighing it down. Their hydrating hair mist has also been a staple. It keeps my hair soft, hydrated and manageable whether I'm wearing it out or in a protective style. Everything is made with 100% natural ingredients that actually penetrate the hair without clogging pores and with consistency. People have seen real results in just a few months. And I love that. It's black owned, it's family run, it started with the founder and her mom creating their own formula after her sister was told that her hair was might never grow back. And now she has a full head of healthy hair. Just a reminder. When something is actually made for you, everything changes. Explore viral bestsellers and products of healthier hair of all types from Basque and Lather. Go to baskinlather co.com and use the code LUCKY for 20% off. That's 20% off at baskinlather co.com using the code LUCKY. I'm going to be honest with you. Most days, if a routine takes longer than 10 minutes, it's simply not happening. And I've gotten to a point where I don't want my mornings to feel overly complicated and riddled with so many steps. I want to look put together, but I don't want to spend a ton of time doing it. And that is why I love my products from Merit Beauty. Merit is a minimalist beauty brand that makes elevated makeup and skincare designed to help you look put together in minutes. And that's exactly how I use it. It's become my go to for those days where I want to feel polished but still like myself. Their products are so easy to use. You swipe them on, blend with your fingers, and then you move on. It doesn't need to feel like a whole production. The Flush Balm is one of my favorites. It gives you this really natural, healthy glow without looking like you tried too hard. And I'm clearly not the only one because one is sold every 30 seconds. And then there's the minimalist, which I love because it works as both a foundation and a concealer. So instead of layering a bunch of products, you use just one that does the job. And it gives skin, skin every time. Everything is clean, vegan, cruelty free, and made with skincare ingredients so your skin actually looks better even after you take it off. It's just a much more realistic way to approach everyday beauty. Right now, Merit Beauty is offering my listeners their signature makeup bag with your first order at meritbeauty.com that's M E R-I-T beauty.com to get your free signature makeup bag with your first order. Meritbeauty.com. I want to talk about writing this novel and you had mentioned many years ago writing the first 100 pages of if I Ruled the World. I want to get into that. Also, as you were describing coming into and your time at Honey, I'm like, oh, I can see some, like, parallels between the story and the book and, and what you described. The story in the book is definitely different. It's not an autobiography by any means. But I'm like, oh, I can kind of see some of the inspiration for that story. But can we go way back to when you wrote that first 100 pages, how you were feeling at that time? If you knew that it would turn into what it would turn into? Or did you just get an inkling to get some words on a page?
- [34:20]
Amy Du Bois Barnett
The question of the day, Some people are reading my novel like it's a damn memoir. I'm like, it's not my story, you know, but there's obviously some Structural similarities between myself and the protagonist. And clearly it's inspired by my experience not just at Honey magazine, but also in that era, right? Because I'm writing about New York City in the late 1990s, you know, when hip hop was at its absolute sort of zenith of power. And you could really feel like the cultural influence and the money sort of threaded throughout the city coming from hip hop and the music industry. And when magazines were at their heyday, it was just kind of a different moment. And when I started the novel, I was in my mid-30s and the editor in chief of. Of Teen People. I had left Honey. And then when I started it, it was a really kind of a different book. It was about a young woman who wants to be an editor in chief. I had a good kind of story, right? I had a good general, like, fun story that I was writing. And I wrote those first hundred pages and I put them aside to finish this, the nonfiction of ICE book. I kept picking up and putting down the novel, though it was very difficult for me to get the creative bandwidth to finish it. Throughout all of these jobs in media, these are highly demanding jobs. And so it was very difficult to find not just the time, but just the creative bandwidth. The story wouldn't leave me. I would periodically like, sort of pick it up and dust it off and stare at it a little bit, edit it a little bit and put it down. And then in 2023, when I was definitively leaving corporate media, I. It was like such a burning desire for me to finish this book. And I think in part because, you know, I. I realized with all of those years of insight and reflection right on. Not just the era about which I was writing, but also about ambition, about what it was really like to work in these high pressure environments. The cost of ambition. I started to think about who. What are you willing to become? What are people willing to become as they go for their dreams? How do you find your voice as a woman, As a black woman? How do you become a woman? My protagonist is. She's not a child. It's not a coming of age story because she's 29 when the story really takes off and she becomes 30, you know, during the book. But you know, how that's really a moment in many women's lives when you start to think about how you want to walk through the world as a woman, you're sort of heading into a different part of, you know, your life. When you are solidifying, you know, your values, your thinking, you know, your philosophies about Many things. And I want to write about that moment in life because I think it's so interesting. And so when I went back into the book, I just became so much more layered than it would have been if I had finished it in my 30s. And also the era, I mean, I realized I was like, I don't know that I had the language and the sort of evolved perspective to really understand the levels with which misogyny was thought throughout the music industry and urban media and urban culture. Frankly, at that time and to today, I don't think I really, really understood it. You know what I mean? But with all those years, again, I was like, oh, wow, I'm really writing about that too. I'm writing about misogyny and sexual violence. These are all things that I'm now very much interested in that feel urgent to put on page.
- [37:27]
Mackenzie
Yeah, definitely. And there is a level of naivete with the character that though as like a reader who is several years older than the character in my mind, I'm like, girl, no, don't do it. What's going on?
- [37:42]
Amy Du Bois Barnett
I felt like that too when I was writing. I was like, nikki, don't do it, don't do it.
- [37:45]
Mackenzie
But I realized I was like, but that is my 36 year old brain that has a different perspective and has like zoomed out and seen me too and seen these things that Nikki at 29 in 1999 didn't have that perspective yet. And so also viewing from that lens is also why I think reading fiction in particular is so important. And I love a self help book. I love a nonfiction, I love a finance book as much as the Next Girl Boss. But I do think that the perspectives we get reading fiction and getting into the minds of these characters, even when they do things where we're like no or like we don't agree or we're like oh, go the other way is still so important because we still learn so much.
- [38:28]
Amy Du Bois Barnett
That's exactly right. Nikki is, I mean, one of the things that distinguishes her from me is that she is kind of naive, right? She is somebody who feels very out of place in, well, people treat her like she's out of place. I think maybe that's more what it is. And she's sort of forced to reckon with who she is and her identity to a certain extent in. Because of the ways in which people are questioning her. Like on one side over here, she's sort of too black for this high end fashion magazine environment where she is when we first meet her and then when she moves on to become editor in chief of Sugar magazine that she's trying to save during the course of the novel, which is an urban magazine for black women. For urban women. It's kind of music and lifestyle. And in that moment, you know, people on that side are questioning, like, well, do you have enough, like, cred? Do you have enough, like, street cred? Are you authentic enough? Are you black enough? Do you know the culture enough? Like, are you really able to represent this culture? And so she is feeling rocked by that.
- [39:25]
Mackenzie
Right?
- [39:26]
Amy Du Bois Barnett
And, you know, she's also somebody who, in my mind, didn't really have a lot of experience with men. I mean, she had a boyfriend, you know, when we first meet her, when she ends up making her first mistake, you know, on the romantic front, that turns out to be a huge one, because it creates a massive antagonist for her, Like a very dangerous enemy in a former lover that she spurns and kind of moves on from. You know, she is. How do I say this? She's somewhat, pardon my French, turned out, as it were. She was, you know. Yes, she was. You know.
- [40:06]
Mackenzie
Right.
- [40:07]
Amy Du Bois Barnett
So, you know, we're both over here blushing because there are a couple sex scenes in this book. I feel like that's part of it too. You know what I mean? And as you're coming into your womanhood, you're gonna make mistakes. I really wanted people to rock with her as she's making these mistakes. Be, like, frustrated a little bit by some of her decisions, but also root for her because she is so good at her job, she is so mission oriented. You do understand that she's in a different era and a little bit naive, and she's trying to navigate these difficult industries. The music industry at the time is challenging to portray now. Like, I really try to give my readers an understanding of what it felt like to be in the industry or adjacent to music, you know, at a time when misogyny was not just in the culture, but it was celebrated, when there were all these artists and all these ballers, these powerful music executives who were not just used to getting what they wanted, but they demanded it. You know, it was a very different era, and she's trying to navigate that for the first time, and she's trying to save this urban publication as her first time editor in chief. And she's making mistakes, and she's also
- [41:09]
Mackenzie
learning how to kind of live for herself, because you also see her kind of struggle for the approval of others. Whether it's like, disappointing her parents or trying to fit into a box with her boyfriend and figuring out who am I in all of this and what is it that I want without looking to other people to tell me what that should be?
- [41:28]
Amy Du Bois Barnett
That's exactly right. Which is, again, to my mind, part of that moment of womanhood. Right. When you do stop living for other people's perspectives on you and you start to really live for yourself. At least for me, that was a big chunk of when I kind of became the woman I am today. I was like, ah, wait a minute. I'm going to actually live for myself and I'm going to honor what I find important. My priorities, my passions. And for my protagonist, it's only when she becomes empowered, you know, when she finds her own voice, that things fall in place for her professionally and personally.
- [42:02]
Mackenzie
I would also love to talk to you about this idea of, like, taking our time, because as you shared, you wrote the first 100 pages of this book a while ago. I mean, well, over a decade ago.
- [42:13]
Amy Du Bois Barnett
I wrote the first hundred pages 20 years ago. Yeah, I put it aside for a really long time. I picked it up and put it down. But it was around about 15 years, you know, that I really kind of had this novel sitting in a proverbial drawer.
- [42:32]
Mackenzie
Yeah, yeah. Where like, the seed had been planted. And it's something that I think about a lot because I do think that with the Internet, so many of us living on the Internet, especially over the past few years, has focused on short form content. We expect everything to happen very quickly. We put things out quickly. We want results quickly. And so I would love to just kind of hear your perspective on taking your time with it. And in the story that you shared, there were other elements of life where it was like, you know, you kind of start it and then you'd focus on something else and put it away. But I'm curious why 2023, when you decided to walk away from your media role at that time, felt like the right time to flesh it out. And kind of the importance of taking your time to create the story you wanted to create.
- [43:16]
Amy Du Bois Barnett
It would not have been the same novel had I finished it in the era in which I started it, because I did not have that perspective. And I think that that is, you know, there's many pros of short form, quick turn content. You know, obviously there's many, many pros. I mean, I worked in that world as a media executive. But there's certain kinds of content, certain kinds of stories that you really need perspective to execute in a way that's going to be like, resonant, that's gonna really reflect the totality of all of the themes you want to explore. And I needed all of those years to think about, even though it's not about myself, but to think about myself to a certain extent. To think about, like, the ambition that I've had over. It's been a long time that I've been working at a very high level in media, and that takes a tremendous amount of energy and focus and strategy and ambition. And what is the cost of that? What has been the price of that for me? You know what I mean? So just thinking about all of that and thinking about again, that era, you know, all of a sudden. And I could not have known, by the way, you know, when my book. That my book would be so in the zeitgeist when it came out, I had no idea that all of a sudden people would be, like, obsessed with the 90s and that there would be a reckoning happening in the music industry, so that people would be talking a lot about misogyny, sort of threaded through hip hop, et cetera. I had no idea that was going to be when my book came out because of the length of time it takes to publish a traditional novel. I finished it in 2023, at the end of 2023. Got acquired at the top of 2024, and it's 2026 and it's coming out. Right. Didn't know. I kind of caught a little bit of that zeitgeist. Not again knowing how it was going to really sort of become like a huge sort of major part of culture and the way in which we're questioning ourselves. But I think I caught a piece of that in 2023 when I was leaving corporate media and I was just like, I don't know if this feels really urgent right now. Like, it feels important for women. It feels important for me maybe to write it, like, in a kind of cathartic capacity. And I just really knew that I had to finish the story.
- [45:16]
Mackenzie
Yeah, sounds like that intuition piece.
- [45:19]
Amy Du Bois Barnett
Yeah, maybe kind of knew.
- [45:21]
Mackenzie
Knew that it was time.
- [45:22]
Amy Du Bois Barnett
Yeah.
- [45:22]
Mackenzie
I'm also. One of my more woo woo beliefs is, I believe for a lot of our creative endeavors, they kind of like, live in us. And when it's time for them to come out, like, they will kind of poke their heads out of the soil. I don't know if it's very, like, big magic of me.
- [45:37]
Amy Du Bois Barnett
Ooh, I like big magic. Yeah, I'm into that.
- [45:39]
Mackenzie
That's how I do it. Kind of like the idea of like, when, you know, Liz Gilbert says, like, if you don't execute an idea, you know, it could potentially go to someone else. I think that when we have creative things within us, it's like when it's ready to come out, it'll kind of poke its head out and be like, hello.
- [45:53]
Amy Du Bois Barnett
Oh, that's super interesting. For me, it was partially like, I don't know, a sense of intuition, something in me that was driving the timing of it all and then also the encouragement of people around me. Like my fiance, for example, he read those hundred pages and he was like, she's really good. He was like, what are you doing with this? Like, why are you not finishing this amazing story that you've started? And I was like, I didn't really have a good answer. It does help to have people around you who are like, that's an interesting theme, that idea that you have. Yeah, I would love to know more about that. Why don't you take it to fruition?
- [46:28]
Mackenzie
Yeah. Who encourage you to follow that curiosity.
- [46:31]
Amy Du Bois Barnett
Exactly.
- [46:32]
Mackenzie
So we've got to talk about some of the amazing bets that you've made on yourself and where they've gotten you. Are there some bets that you're looking to make next that you want to share with us?
- [46:44]
Amy Du Bois Barnett
My biggest next bet is this foray into Hollywood, as it were. You know, I am not at present going back into corporate media. I am betting that this book is going to make a fabulous TV series. Like, I see it, you know, I really, really see it. And I am betting on that. Right now I am a writing executive producer working on the pilot with Lee Daniels, and I just see this on screen. I'm very much betting that this is going to be a future for me. So as a storyteller, I'm going to continue to, you know, have a two book deal, which is amazing, working on my second novel. But I'm also, like, expanding who I am as a storyteller and betting that it's going to be successful.
- [47:28]
Mackenzie
I love that. I love that so much. And I also just love in hearing your story and the different acts and the different, again, no pun intended, but like, chapters that you've had and the things that you've done, just like continuing to do different things. I also think sometimes, and I've felt this way too, I would get so discouraged if I wasn't doing, like, exactly what I wanted to do when I was 25 or when I turned 30 or I still sometimes feel a way where it's like, oh, my goodness, like I'm now entering my late 30s and I'm still Like, not where I want to be yet. There's still things I want to do and I haven't done them yet. And we have time and we can move direction and do different things at any time.
- [48:05]
Amy Du Bois Barnett
That is exactly right. I started this book in my 30s. I started if I Rule the World in my 30s and I finished it in my 50s. You have time. I love the adventure of it. I'm a big adventurer. I love to do new things, see new sites and experience new things. It's just really kind of baked into me. It brings me energy, actually, to explore that feeling of not being where you want to be at any given time is or can be reframed as an impetus to explore, as an impetus to have an adventure. If a person is not where they want to be at this particular moment in time, well, move to Paris for a year, see how that goes. You know what I mean? You know what I mean? Do the podcast from Paris, you know, and have that adventure. What's the thing that's, you know, going to kind of jumpstart, like, you know, another kind of burst of energy in your life? And I think it's, you know, it's also kind of giving ourselves grace and understanding that we generally have time and all those other kinds of things. I feel like the universe is like, what you doing? You know what I mean? Because the universe likes that sort of. I don't know. The universe likes bravery.
- [49:12]
Mackenzie
Yeah, yeah. Taking like a ballsy step.
- [49:14]
Amy Du Bois Barnett
The universe likes bravery and it rewards it, you know.
- [49:18]
Mackenzie
Yeah. Taking a risk, taking a bet, taking a bet.
- [49:21]
Amy Du Bois Barnett
The universe rewards betting on yourself because it's that kind of energy. I mean, I know I have, like, this is my woo Woo belief now,
- [49:28]
Mackenzie
if we're gonna go woo Woo. Yeah.
- [49:29]
Amy Du Bois Barnett
Woo woo for Woo Woo.
- [49:30]
Mackenzie
Here we go.
- [49:31]
Amy Du Bois Barnett
I really believe strongly in energy. I sometimes envision it as like bright spots of energy around the universe. Right. And the people who have those bright spots of energy are those who are brave, those who are contributing energy back into the universe.
- [49:45]
Mackenzie
Right.
- [49:45]
Amy Du Bois Barnett
And I think the universe really likes that. It's like, ah, hello, bright spot of energy. I like you so much. I'm going to give you more because you're feeding me. I have felt sustained by this. I have felt rewarded for this bravery and for betting on myself. So I advocate for it very strongly.
- [50:01]
Mackenzie
Of all the titles that you had, what was a title that felt the most you?
- [50:05]
Amy Du Bois Barnett
Editor in Chief.
- [50:06]
Mackenzie
Editor in Chief. We love it. Was there a title that you felt like you grew out of?
- [50:12]
Amy Du Bois Barnett
That's a tough one. No, I don't really know if there's a title that I grew out of. Maybe not actually. I don't know. Yeah, that's good. I don't really think so. Yeah. Everything I've had has felt sort of progressive in a way that made, you know, logical sense at the time.
- [50:27]
Mackenzie
I love that something that you said no to that changed your life more than a yes.
- [50:31]
Amy Du Bois Barnett
A couple of marriage proposals. Yeah, I've been proposed to a few times and there were a couple of times I was like, actually,
- [50:41]
Mackenzie
that's the time to say no.
- [50:43]
Amy Du Bois Barnett
That is the time.
- [50:43]
Mackenzie
Better than.
- [50:44]
Amy Du Bois Barnett
Better than yes. Yes.
- [50:46]
Mackenzie
Would you say that you're driven more by curiosity or collection? Clarity?
- [50:50]
Amy Du Bois Barnett
Ooh, curiosity. Absolutely. Absolutely. Curiosity.
- [50:54]
Mackenzie
A version of success you no longer believe in.
- [50:56]
Amy Du Bois Barnett
I understand why I was working around the clock for all the years that I was. And there is maybe lean very hard in this sort of soft life direction. Right. That's maybe tough if you don't know how to do that in a way that still manifests your dreams. But I. I do no longer believe that for me, success constitutes 80, 90 hour work weeks. And like not seeing my friends or people I love or, you know, or having any time for myself. That. That's.
- [51:26]
Mackenzie
No.
- [51:26]
Amy Du Bois Barnett
Doesn't look like success to me anymore.
- [51:28]
Mackenzie
What do you think is harder? Starting over or being seen? Starting over.
- [51:33]
Amy Du Bois Barnett
Ooh, starting over. The actual act of reinvention, you know, and having all of the tools within you and creating the opportunities for yourself, you know, personal, professional, that allow you to start over. That's the hard thing.
- [51:46]
Mackenzie
If you think back to the quietest season of your career, what did it teach you?
- [51:51]
Amy Du Bois Barnett
It taught me a lot about people and about relationships and about who in my life are my core folks who love me, whether I have a big, successful, visible job and I can do things for them, or whether I don't have a big, successful, visible job and I'm quiet and who is still rocking with me, who's still by my side, who's still calling me? It's very interesting to note when you go from a very visible, highly successful job that people talk about into a quieter season in your career, the number of people who stop calling you and stop interacting with you, you realize how transactional some of those relationships were. It taught me a lot about people.
- [52:34]
Mackenzie
Is there a belief you had at 25 that you have completely rewritten?
- [52:38]
Amy Du Bois Barnett
Weirdly, no. My mom, after she passed away, when I was 22, I learned a lot of life lessons that a little earlier than many people and I really came into A philosophy I live by to this day. I can't say that I really rewrote things, in part because I had learned so many lessons by the time I turned 23. 5. I was actually pretty wise beyond my years, even though I was making a whole lot of mistakes. Not the mistakes in my book, for the record. Not those mistakes, so we know. But other kinds of mistakes I was definitely making.
- [53:15]
Mackenzie
Yeah. Yeah. I love that perspective, though. If you could go back to the beginning of your career, what would you do slower?
- [53:21]
Amy Du Bois Barnett
I would have focused more on financial independence. I really did not. What I would have done slower is, I don't know, spend money, maybe. I would have spent money slower and I would have focused more on the things that I could have done younger.
- [53:34]
Mackenzie
What were some of those things that you would have done to.
- [53:36]
Amy Du Bois Barnett
I would have invested more. I absolutely would have been way more intentional.
- [53:40]
Mackenzie
If there's any one takeaway that you want our girls to have when it comes to betting on themselves, what would it be? Ooh.
- [53:47]
Amy Du Bois Barnett
The universe does not give you opportunities that you do not think that you deserve. It just doesn't work that way. If you and your soul don't think that you deserve the promotion, the job, the partner, the house, the vacation, the friend even, right. If you don't, something in you doesn't. Really doesn't think you deserve it, then that is not an opportunity that the universe is going to open up for you. So a big chunk of betting on yourself isn't just like going out on a limb and taking the risk. It's knowing that you deserve whatever the outcome is that you desire.
- [54:19]
Mackenzie
So, so good. Amy, thank you so much for being here. Thank you. Can you please let our girls know how they can keep in touch with you, how they can follow your work, where they can read if I Rule the world, and how they can keep in touch?
- [54:31]
Amy Du Bois Barnett
Yes. My debut novel, if I Rule the World, is literally available wherever you buy books. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, a black owned bookstore, your local independent bookstore. Please do support my novel. I'm super excited about it. And if folks love it, recommend it to your friends, to your book clubs. You know, leave me a great review, all of those things. I very much appreciate that and stay in touch with me. I'm amyduboisbarnett on most of the socials.
- [54:55]
Mackenzie
Amazing. Thank you so much. And we'll make sure it's all linked in the show notes too.
- [54:58]
Amy Du Bois Barnett
I appreciate it.
- [54:58]
Mackenzie
Thank you so much for being here.
- [55:00]
Amy Du Bois Barnett
This was awesome.
- [55:01]
Mackenzie
Oh my gosh. This was such a great conversation.
- [55:03]
Amy Du Bois Barnett
Really.
- [55:03]
Mackenzie
Yeah. Oh, I hope you enjoyed today's conversation with Amy. I know. I felt so inspired and she embodies everything that I wanna be when I grow up. And hearing her journey and her trajectory and how nonlinear it was, but how she's been willing to bet on herself every step of the way was so inspiring. Make sure you check out her debut novel if I Ruled the World, if you are a fiction loving girly like me. And make sure you hit subscribe so that you don't miss another episode of she's so Lucky. Thank you for tuning in and I'll see you next week. Thank you for tuning in to this week's episode of she's so Lucky. If you're ready to create your own Lucky, hit that subscribe button wherever you get your podcasts or on YouTube so you don't miss an episode and head to the show. Notes for resources, links and discount codes. And if you are really feeling lucky, we would appreciate your rating and your review. It really helps us be able to improve the show, to get great guests, and to understand what you want to hear more of. Thank you for tuning in and I'll see you next week. Please note that this episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to in this episode.