Keke Palmer on Disappointment Being the Key to Career Success, from IMO

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Keke Palmer on Disappointment Being the Key to Career Success, from IMO"

Episode Release Date: April 9, 2025
Podcast: She's So Lucky
Host: She's So Lucky (Les Alfred)
Guest: Keke Palmer
Featuring: Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson from IMO

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Introduction

The episode opens with a brief introduction by Michelle Obama, promoting her show "IMO," co-hosted by her brother, Craig Robinson. While this segment serves as a preview, the main content focuses on an in-depth conversation with Emmy Award-winning entertainer Keke Palmer. The discussion delves into Keke's early career challenges, the impact of unmet expectations, and how disappointment can be a catalyst for future success.

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Keke Palmer's Early Career and Feelings of Disappointment

Opening Reflections ([01:02] – [02:07])

Keke Palmer reminisces about her role in the movie "Akeelah and the Bee," which was hyped as a blockbuster destined to catapult her to stardom. Despite the initial box office disappointment, she reflects on how the film eventually became her most recognized work. Keke shares her feelings of betrayal and frustration when the movie didn't achieve immediate success, despite her mother's early encouragement.

Keke Palmer ([01:02]): "Everyone kept saying, this movie is going to be a hit. This movie's going to bust it out. This is you gonna be a star."

Legacy Beyond a Single Project ([02:07] – [02:24])

Keke emphasizes that a person's legacy isn't defined by a single achievement but by a series of moments and contributions. She uses her experience with "Akeelah and the Bee" to illustrate that setbacks don't negate the value of one's body of work.

Keke Palmer ([02:24]): "Our life is made up of many moments. It's not just that one thing we did."

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Childhood Dreams and Adult Realities

Discussion on Early Aspirations ([03:08] – [05:13])

Craig Robinson initiates a conversation about childhood dreams, sharing his initial ambition to become a pediatrician at age 10, which later evolved into a passion for law. Noelle recalls her childhood aspiration to become a race car driver, which was discouraged by her second-grade teacher, Ms. Thompson. This segment highlights how adult perceptions can influence and sometimes stifle children's dreams.

Noelle ([04:10]): "I wanted to be a NASCAR or IndyCar driver."

Craig Robinson ([04:15]): "Why do we do that to kids?"

Impact of Early Guidance on Career Choices ([05:13] – [07:00])

The discussion pivots to the broader implications of directing children towards specific careers based on societal expectations. Keke Palmer and Craig Robinson agree that such guidance can inadvertently limit a child's perception of their potential, emphasizing the importance of keeping options open and allowing children to explore diverse interests.

Craig Robinson ([06:32]): "Life is about the chapters. It's never any one thing."

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Addressing Listener Question: Navigating Success and Fulfillment

Noelle's Dilemma ([15:30] – [17:28])

Noelle presents a heartfelt question from a listener struggling with feelings of unfulfillment despite achieving a long-desired goal—a cookbook deal. She expresses anxiety about the sacrifices made and the lack of progress in other areas of life, seeking advice on reframing her mindset to embrace gratitude and optimism.

Keke Palmer's Perspective on Expectations ([17:31] – [24:56])

Keke empathizes with Noelle's situation, discussing the pitfalls of attaching rigid expectations to achievements. She introduces the concept of distinguishing between micro goals (specific tasks) and macro goals (broader life purposes), suggesting that understanding one's deeper motivations can prevent disappointment when specific goals aren't met as anticipated.

Keke Palmer ([23:36]): "Jack of all trades, master of none is often better than a master of one."

Craig Robinson's Insights on Personal Fulfillment ([24:56] – [31:45])

Craig Robinson shares his personal journey from aspiring lawyer to fulfilling roles in public service, emphasizing the importance of exploring diverse paths to discover true passion. He advises focusing on service and personal happiness beyond external achievements, advocating for a balanced approach to career and life satisfaction.

Craig Robinson ([27:28]): "Life is becoming like we are always becoming. There is no point in which you stop learning and discovering."

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Embracing Continuous Growth and Self-Satisfaction

Balancing Achievements with Personal Contentment ([31:45] – [35:37])

The conversation transitions to the importance of finding contentment in everyday life, beyond major milestones. Keke and Craig discuss the challenges of maintaining happiness amidst ongoing responsibilities and the societal pressure to constantly achieve. They highlight the necessity of being satisfied with one's current state while striving for personal growth.

Craig Robinson ([34:28]): "Learn to be satisfied where you are, whatever that is."

The Role of Service in Personal Happiness ([35:37] – [38:35])

Keke Palmer and Craig Robinson elaborate on how serving others contributes to a deeper sense of fulfillment. They argue that true happiness stems from internal contentment and meaningful interactions, rather than external accolades or achievements.

Keke Palmer ([32:54]): "How do I feel like I can best be of service?"

Final Reflections on Continuous Becoming ([38:35] – [39:14])

As the episode nears its conclusion, the hosts encourage embracing the journey of continuous growth. They emphasize that personal development doesn't have a finish line and that each experience contributes to one's evolving identity and satisfaction.

Craig Robinson ([38:11]): "Life is never ending. These realizations that we're gonna have."

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Closing Advice and Takeaways

Guidance for Noelle and Listeners ([39:00] – [40:52])

In the closing segment, Keke Palmer and Craig Robinson offer concrete advice to Noelle and listeners facing similar challenges:

1. Find Your Macro Goal: Identify the broader purpose behind your specific goals.
2. Focus on Service: Engage in activities that allow you to contribute to others' well-being.
3. Embrace Continuous Growth: Accept that personal development is ongoing and doesn't culminate with a single achievement.
4. Cultivate Self-Satisfaction: Learn to be content with where you are, regardless of external accomplishments.

Keke Palmer ([39:07]): "Stay away from those titles and keep becoming."

Craig Robinson ([39:23]): "Happiness is not the external achievements. It's about being okay with yourself."

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Notable Quotes

• Keke Palmer ([02:24], 02:24): "Our life is made up of many moments. It's not made like our legacy is not just that one thing we did."

• Craig Robinson ([06:32], 06:32): "Life is about the chapters. It's never any one thing."

• Keke Palmer ([23:36], 23:36): "Jack of all trades, master of none is often better than a master of one."

• Craig Robinson ([38:10], 38:10): "Life is becoming like we are always becoming. There is no point in which you stop learning and discovering."

• Keke Palmer ([39:07], 39:07): "Stay away from those titles and keep becoming."

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Conclusion

This episode of "She's So Lucky" featuring Keke Palmer offers a profound exploration of how disappointment and unmet expectations can serve as pivotal moments for personal and professional growth. Through candid discussions and relatable anecdotes, Keke Palmer, alongside Craig Robinson, provides valuable insights into navigating success, redefining personal fulfillment, and embracing the continuous journey of self-improvement. Listeners are encouraged to identify their deeper motivations, balance their achievements with self-contentment, and remain open to evolving their aspirations over time.

Transcript

[Michelle Obama]

Hello, friends. I am dropping into your feeds with something special, a new show from my friends at Higher Ground, hosted by Michelle Obama called imo. You know how on she's so Lucky we have inspiring conversations with actionable advice to achieve big goals. On imo, Michelle and her big brother, Craig Robinson offer the same candid perspectives on the questions shaping our lives, relationships, and the world around us. Each week, they're joined by a guest to tackle real questions from people like you, offering personal stories, practical advice, and plenty of laughs. In this episode, Keke Palmer joins Michelle and Craig when a listener asks why she feels so down after a big career win. Kiki opens up about how her planned breakout as a young actress didn't go as expected and how that experience ultimately shaped her career. They also talk about evolving views on meaningful work and the advice Michelle's daughters are finally starting to take sneak peek. Listen to IMO wherever you get your podcasts.

[Keke Palmer]

So I remember when I did a Kill and the Bee, everybody kept saying, this movie is going to be a hit. This movie's going to bust it out. This is you gonna be a star. And like, it's such an elusive thing.

[Craig Robinson]

What's the star?

[Keke Palmer]

You know what I mean?

[Craig Robinson]

And how old were you then?

[Keke Palmer]

I was 11.

[Craig Robinson]

11.

[Keke Palmer]

And they were like, this is cute.

[Craig Robinson]

And I'm like, it's like, really?

[Keke Palmer]

Whatever that is, I guess Michael Jackson now, you know, like, it was like, cute. And then the movie came in and did so terrible in the box office.

[Craig Robinson]

Although that was one of my favorite movies.

[Keke Palmer]

And then the funny thing about it is, like, over time, it grew to be my most popular film. And the thing that people most know me for. But I use that as an example in this is because our life is made up of many moments. It's not made like our legacy is not just that one thing we did, you know, it's the many things that we did. And so like Akilah and the Bee was always there for people to come to and remember my work. And it grew over time, amongst other all the things I did. But I remember feeling in that moment being like everybody lied to me. You know what I mean? I felt like when my mom told me I was gonna be a big girl at 5, I still didn't get big. I was like, now wait a minute.

[Craig Robinson]

I'm still shorter than y'all. It sounds like big girl just means I can't be a baby.

[Keke Palmer]

Exactly.

[Noelle]

Well, hello.

[Craig Robinson]

Hi, Craig.

[Noelle]

How are you?

[Craig Robinson]

I'm great. How are you? Welcome.

[Noelle]

Thank you.

[Craig Robinson]

Back to my world.

[Noelle]

Even though I didn't stay at your place.

[Craig Robinson]

You know, and that you got a lot of nerve coming into D.C. and you didn't even stay with me. I know. Because you all trying to be Airbnb friendly.

[Noelle]

Let me tell you. I would normally stay with my sister, but this time I stayed at a really nice place.

[Craig Robinson]

Okay.

[Noelle]

And I was gonna go for a walk this morning, but I was so excited about our guest today that I was preparing all morning long. And we're gonna be talking about dreams. And, you know, it made me think of when we were little. Did you have a dream? Did you know what you wanted to do?

[Craig Robinson]

I thought I did. When I would be asked, probably around the age of 10, I thought I wanted to be a pediatrician.

[Noelle]

I remember.

[Craig Robinson]

You remember?

[Noelle]

Oh, yeah. I was wondering if you remember. Cause I thought you were gonna say lawyer or something.

[Craig Robinson]

I was gonna say, no, no, no.

[Noelle]

But yes, you wanted to be a lawyer.

[Craig Robinson]

Didn't come until after I real not talented at chemistry or math. You know, that's what you can be, a 10. You can dream. It's like being a doctor is all about loving children and wanting to help. Cause I love kids. I love little kids. And I thought, well, if I could do something that was professional and I could save lives. And then I went to high school, and chemistry kind of threw me forward. I didn't like science or math.

[Noelle]

So the problem with you and science is you didn't like it because you were a good student in every subject.

[Craig Robinson]

I could get grades, but if I thought, if I. I'm gonna pick a career where I have to do math and science for like eight years, it's like, nah, I'll do something else. But that was my dream. What about you?

[Noelle]

So I'm gonna see if you remember this. The first thing I wanted to be wasn't an athlete. Wasn't a coach. Well, kind of an athlete, but it was a race car driver. Do you remember that?

[Craig Robinson]

It was like race car. I was gonna say pilot.

[Noelle]

No, no, it wasn't pilot because folks weren't on planes like that back then. I wanted to be a NASCAR or IndyCar driver.

[Craig Robinson]

That's why you love Formula One so much.

[Noelle]

Yeah, it is. But do you remember how I got talked out of it by Mrs. Thompson, my second grade teacher?

[Keke Palmer]

No.

[Craig Robinson]

What did she say?

[Noelle]

So it was one of those days in school where you have to. She's like, all right, I want everybody to stand up and say what you want to be when you grow up. And people were like standing up saying they wanted to Be a teacher. And they wanted to be a fireman, and they wanted to be a policeman. She gets. And I said, I want to be a race car driver. And she was like Craig Robinson with all those brains. All you want to do is be a race car driver. Oh, see, Ms. Thompson, she shamed me out of it.

[Craig Robinson]

See, that's what I'm talking about.

[Noelle]

But as it turned out, you grow to be 6'six you can't be a race car driver. Right?

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah, but she didn't know that.

[Noelle]

She didn't know it. And the fact that.

[Craig Robinson]

And she didn't also know that race car drivers make a pretty good living.

[Noelle]

Well, they make a good living, but, you know, they're mostly. Most of those guys have to be engineers. They have to be really good. To your point. Math, science, figuring things out. So it.

[Craig Robinson]

So Ms. Thompson didn't know what she was talking about.

[Noelle]

And I love Ms. Thompson. You know, she was one of my favorite teachers, but she talked me out of my first dream.

[Craig Robinson]

And what grade was that?

[Noelle]

Second grade.

[Craig Robinson]

See, this is what we're talking about. And that's the thing. One of the things I don't like about asking little kids, little bitty kids, what they wanna be like, they would know.

[Noelle]

Right.

[Craig Robinson]

And then shaming em. You know, I know. It's just sort of like, why do we do that to kids? Because that sets them up for thinking that life is predictable. You can pick things and plan it and it will actually happen. That's. And we're gonna talk about this more later. But I think that's one of the things that gets kids kind of stuck into thinking that they're supposed to know everything about their lives by the time they're 15. They're supposed to have it all figured out. And that just sets them up. It sets up the wrong kind of expectation for how life actually works.

[Noelle]

Absolutely. Absolutely. And it's okay to wanna be three or four things too.

[Craig Robinson]

Well, because over the course of your life, you may actually be three or four different things. But, yeah, dreams, you know, it's fun to dream, but I think that it's the balance of how do you let kids dream, but you don't pigeonhole them by their dreams. And I'm very careful about that. I mean, like with the girls. Malia is one of those interesting kids who, when she was 10, she said she wanted to write and direct, and she's doing that. Right. That's crazy. I always say that to Sasha, the younger one. That's unusual. It is rare that somebody decides at 10 that they want to do something and then they do it and they actually like it. But I still try not to pigeonhole them. Like, just because I say this to Malia. Just because you said you wanted to do that at 10, you're now an adult. You're trying this stuff on. You may like it, you may not. I just want to always give my kids an out, because if things don't work out right, I don't want to think that they're disappointing me because they said they were gonna do something when they were 10, it didn't turn out that way, or life happened. So I'm constantly trying to balance being enthusiastic about what they wanna do, but also say life. We don't know what's gonna happen in life, so we have to stay emotionally and mentally flexible so that when things go wrong or something changes or they learn something new about themselves, that they have room to respond to that change.

[Noelle]

Yeah, well, you know, I always thought mom and dad did a terrific job because they never said, you should be this or stick with this. They just said, whatever you decide, just work hard at it. Just work hard. It was like schoolwork. You don't have to get the best grades as long as you work hard. And typically, when you worked hard, you got the results you wanted. And that was. That was advice that I've carried with me through a bunch of different machinations and jobs. And I never set out to be a basketball player. But I digress. I want to bring out our guest, who is an Emmy award winning, multi hyphenate entertainer, an actress, a musical artist, a producer, a host of her own podcast, and an author. But most importantly, she is the favorite game show host of the Robinson household. Cause, you know, we play some Password in our house.

[Craig Robinson]

You come to our household family, you.

[Noelle]

Got to be ready to play some Password. So, Keke Palmer, will you please come on down?

[Craig Robinson]

You.

[Keke Palmer]

Oh, my.

[Craig Robinson]

Oh, my goodness.

[Keke Palmer]

I could listen to you guys talk all day long.

[Noelle]

It's so good to see you. Thanks for being here.

[Craig Robinson]

Hey, you too.

[Noelle]

You guys.

[Craig Robinson]

Oh, my gosh.

[Keke Palmer]

Thank you for having me on. And I just live for the Password play. The Password is. Yes, I should wear my glasses.

[Noelle]

When we play, we say it like that. And the password is. You've done better than. Who is the guy? Allen Ludden.

[Craig Robinson]

That was the Wave original.

[Keke Palmer]

That is high praise. I love. I love doing that show, and I just love that families can get together and have fun with it. Yeah, that's the thing is, like, it's an opportunity for everybody to play Even the babies.

[Noelle]

So I was telling our producer, Natalie, there's only two we have at home. We have four kids, but only two at home.

[Keke Palmer]

Okay.

[Noelle]

14 year old and a 12 year old. So sitting down and watching TV has gone by the wayside. But there's two things we watch. Password and Dateline.

[Keke Palmer]

Okay. Cause Dateline gets you in, too. That's like the perfect balance. You know, you can laugh and then you're like, that man was no good. I love that vibe.

[Noelle]

You can teach some life lessons with Dateline.

[Craig Robinson]

I mean, just. Just read. Listening to you read Keke's bio, it's like, girl, I would think you were 70 years old with all you've done in your life. Sometimes I do feel 70, you know, I mean, how did you. How have you packed so much into such a young life? You're, you know, you're a baby yourself.

[Keke Palmer]

Oh, my gosh.

[Craig Robinson]

Thank you so much. And you have done so much in such a short period of time. Girl, I'm so proud of you. Just watching you just do your thing. How do you manage all of that?

[Keke Palmer]

I think it's so much of what when you guys were talking about dreams, knowing your dream as a kid, and then how people can help kids, nurture them, is that when I told my parents I wanted to entertain, you know, we started going on auditions and stuff, There was never a ceiling. They always encouraged and said there was more that I could do. There was never a feeling that I had. Well, because I started with acting, that's all I had to stick with. You know, if I wanted to try singing and focus on that, I could. If I wanted to try hosting, if I wanted to do less film and TV and maybe do more theater, you know, it was always. Or even community stuff, you know, I never felt like I had to just abandon any one thing to follow my dreams. It all was rooted in being of service to my community, in the ways that felt most natural to me. And so I really loved hearing you guys talk about that, because I think that is why I'm able to do all the things that I do. I think a lot of people have multiple. Most people, everybody has multiple gifts and things they want to offer. But like y'all was saying, sometimes people make them believe that it's that whole Jack of all trades, master of none.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Keke Palmer]

You know, but really, it's Jack of all trades, master of none is often better than a master of one.

[Craig Robinson]

One. Yeah.

[Keke Palmer]

And so I think my mom, my dad, my family saying, okay, we with you. Let's do It.

[Craig Robinson]

All right, let's give this a shot.

[Keke Palmer]

That's what made me be able to do it.

[Craig Robinson]

Do you think about the wisdom of their parenting? What do you think now about the way your. Your parents, you know, sort of guided you?

[Keke Palmer]

I think in the beginning, I was kind of, like, as a teenager, in my early 20s, it was kind of like, did I like my parents?

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah. Really?

[Keke Palmer]

And then I was like, girl, everybody go. I remember my dad had this talk with me where he was like, okay, so I didn't do a lot of things right. I'm sorry that you didn't like this. I'm sorry that you didn't like that. But now you're a grown woman.

[Noelle]

Mm.

[Keke Palmer]

So now what are you gonna do with that? Are you gonna be mad at me forever?

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah.

[Keke Palmer]

Or are you gonna move forward and take matters into your own hands?

[Craig Robinson]

See, now. Now, that's Chicago right there.

[Keke Palmer]

That is Chicago to the mad.

[Craig Robinson]

He was like.

[Keke Palmer]

I mean, everybody. Parents did something wrong.

[Craig Robinson]

He was kind of like, okay, girl, that sounds just like our mom, who's like, I don't understand these kids blaming their parents. It's like, well, you think their parents didn't go through something? I mean, there's just a. And we talked about it. Cause we from Illinois.

[Keke Palmer]

Okay.

[Craig Robinson]

And Keke, she's sort of almost from.

[Keke Palmer]

Every time I say Robbins, people are.

[Craig Robinson]

Like, but if, you know, Chicago, you know, Robbins is like, it's the hood suburb.

[Noelle]

And if Kiki's from Robbins, she can handle herself. You can handle yourself.

[Keke Palmer]

We know that.

[Craig Robinson]

You know, it's not. You know, Robbins is not Highland Park. No, it is not. It's not Barrington. You know, but your parents sound like there's a sort of common sense groundedness to the. Just the way they think. There's just kind of a Midwestern kind of simplicity and kind of, you know, no nonsense ism. And I always.

[Keke Palmer]

I just always wonder how it's like that. You know, obviously, you don't want to be biased, because we're all from the Midwest, but I do think there's something that's so, like, look hardworking. Pull yourself up by the bootstraps, hug on your family. You know, be good to yourself and keep moving forward, because life isn't going to. So what are you gonna do with that? And I think that's what I learned the most from my parents after I got out of my. I was kind of like, it all slowly started to come to me. All the sacrifices they made. On all accounts, not just sacrifices that we think about, that we like, like, oh, you know, I can't go out tonight. I can't go. No sacrifices. Like, I have to abandon my comfortability with anxiety. I have to abandon my comfortability with not chasing my dreams and stepping out into the unknown. My parents abandoned those things. They became heroes. They became courageous and brave in ways that I don't even think they knew that they could be, just so their children could see that they had options and that their dreams were worth believing in. And I think that is, like, what I wanted to be able to do the most with my son is teach him how to be an authoritative figure, but also help to nurture his sense of leadership without, you know, tampering him down. You know, like, be a leader, but be the right kind of leader, you know?

[Noelle]

So sorry, Mish, but I love you. Yeah, right.

[Keke Palmer]

Sorry, Mish.

[Noelle]

Yes, I'm in control here. This is a perfect time to segue into our question. And our producer Natalie is gonna read the question and then we're gonna react to it.

[Craig Robinson]

So, Natalie, what's up?

[Keke Palmer]

Nat? Nat.

[Natalie]

Hi, Michelle and Craig. My name is NOELLE and I'm 36 years old. My whole career, I've had one dream, to write a cookbook. Since college, I've worked single mindedly towards doing this. I've written for food magazines, become an in house recipe developer. I worked as a cheesemonger. I've even become a food stylist to help other people realize their own cookbook dreams. In the midst of it all, I've also been scheming up and dreaming my cookbook. Until recently though, it really felt like it would never happen. And then, bam. I got a book deal. My first cookbook will come out late next year. So you might be wondering, what's the problem? That's my question too. After years of working towards one thing, I found myself oddly unhappy. Now that I've achieved it, I don't feel I've made enough progress. In the rest of my life, I've made very little money. I don't have the house I hoped I'd have or the relationship I thought I might. I fear I've given up so much for one thing, and I'm really not sure it feels worth it. I'm deeply aware of what I don't have, and I feel a bit overwhelmed by the rest of my life. Getting this cookbook to the finish line on time and within budget, trying to earn more money, staying healthy, trying to date. You get the picture? In short, I don't feel encouraged and proud or like I've succeeded as an adult. I feel tired and anxious. Have you ever felt this way? Do you have any advice on how I can reframe my mindset to focus on the good, embrace what I do have and move forward with a little more optimism for the future, Maybe even find a little gratitude for what I have accomplished? Any insights would help. Thanks, Noel.

[Noelle]

Well, that is a lot.

[Keke Palmer]

That's heartbreaking. It is heartbreaking.

[Noelle]

And I'll open it up to you, folks.

[Keke Palmer]

I mean, I think I maybe have had one experience like that, and it's because you attach all these expectations to it. You know what I mean? Like, it's one thing to say, I want to achieve this for me, and then there's another thing to say, I want to achieve something because I'm expecting all of this to come with it. You know how you can think about, well, once I get da, da, da, I'm going to have this, I'm going to have that, I'm going have that. And then you kind of continue to push the goalpost for yourself. So. I remember when I did Aquila and the Bee, everybody kept saying, this movie is going to be a hit. This movie's going to bust it out. This is going, you going to be a star. And, like, it's such an elusive thing.

[Craig Robinson]

Because what's the star?

[Keke Palmer]

You know what I mean?

[Craig Robinson]

And how old were you then?

[Keke Palmer]

I was 11.

[Craig Robinson]

11.

[Keke Palmer]

And they were like, this is cute.

[Craig Robinson]

And I'm like, it's like, you weren't. Whatever that is.

[Keke Palmer]

I guess it was Michael Jackson now, you know, like, it was, like, cute. And then the movie came in and did so terrible in the box office.

[Craig Robinson]

Although that was one of my favorite movies. And then.

[Keke Palmer]

And then the funny thing about it is, like, over time, it grew to be my most popular film. And the thing that people most know me for, but I use that as an example in this is because our life is made up of many moments. It's not made like our legacy is not just that one thing we did, you know? You know, it's the many things that we did. And so, like, Akilah to be was always there for people to come to and remember my work. And it grew over time amongst all the things I did. But I remember feeling in that moment being like everybody lied to me. You know what I mean? I felt like when my mom told me I was gonna be a big girl at 5, I still didn't get big. I was like, now wait a minute.

[Craig Robinson]

I'm still shorter than y'all. It sounds like big Girl just means I can't be a baby. Exactly.

[Keke Palmer]

This don't seem right how I felt with the Aquila thing. And so. But what I learned and what I never did to myself after that was to expect an outcome, to be proud of the work, to be happy that I got the job or the thing that I wanted to get or did the. But not to make it mean that it is only that if I receive a certain achievement. No, it's that to me. And that has to be enough. So that's the one thing I thought about when that happened.

[Craig Robinson]

So that makes me think. I mean, I share this all the time. I mean, I went to Princeton, Harvard Law, because I thought I was going to be a lawyer and a corporate lawyer. I didn't know anything about what a lawyer did. I didn't come. Our family was. We were not professional people. I picked law because it was the next thing to do. I applied, I got into Harvard. You get into Harvard, you go. Right. That was the extent of my thinking.

[Keke Palmer]

Yep.

[Craig Robinson]

Right. And then I got out, I practiced in a firm for two years and I was like, I, I don't like this at all. I'm not, you know, because corporate law is about, it's papers and briefs, it's research. It's not very people oriented, especially in the, your early years. It just. I had no idea what corporate law was. Right. And I had a. I had wonderful mentors, people supported me. I was able to achieve and do good things in that year. But I didn't know what that felt like. I did not want to be a lawyer, as it turns out, after all that education and all those loans. But to your point, it was all them loans that we just paid off before Barack went into the White House.

[Keke Palmer]

Okay.

[Craig Robinson]

So, I mean, we were carrying debt, you know, for a very long time for me not to be a lawyer. But to your point, I had no idea what that was gonna mean and what that was gonna feel like. It was just a goal that I set for myself. I didn't even know what it was based on. I didn't know my why. I knew my what, but I didn't know my why. And I could have felt like a failure for it, Right? But I didn't. Fortunately, I had parents. I was like, let me try on some other things. Like, to your point, there are chapters in life that was a chapter. I needed to do that and know that and understand that. And I went on to have many, many chapters. And I'm still glad that I got my law degree. The Way I think you know how I see the world is very much influenced by that education.

[Keke Palmer]

Yes.

[Craig Robinson]

But it wasn't who I was supposed to be. And there's no way I would have known that had I not tried it and then moved on from it and tried on some other thing. So for Noelle, there just that life is about the chapters. You know, it's never any one thing. And to place too much stock or put too much emotion on one or two achievements, it always sets you up for disappointment, because life is bigger than that.

[Noelle]

So to not take this into a sports metaphor, which I get accused of all the time, but it seems to me that in order to be really good at what you do and to be really good at what you do, you can't just. The goal can't just be the goal. You have to enjoy the process. Like guys who make it into professional athletics, they love to work out. They love to do the hard stuff. They love to get in the gym. They love to compete when nobody's watching. And that ends up being turning into a guy like LeBron or like Michael Jordan. And what I'm finding is that people don't learn how to enjoy the process because Noelle's done all this great work that got her to where she is, that she should be loving the fact that she got there, and she can't, because she got there. And the goal was, I do the book, and then I get all of this. To your point, Kiki, I get all this stuff that's supposed to come with the book.

[Keke Palmer]

It's because I think that what happens to us sometimes is we focus on the micro goal that is actually servicing the macro goal. Now, I don't know what that is for Noelle. And sometimes we don't know, which is why the chapters are important. But let's say, for instance, she just likes to tell stories through food. That's the real goal, to tell stories through food. I can do that through helping people tell their stories through food. I can do that through food styling. I can do that. And so I think what we often have to do is pull back and say, you know, I talk about this like, it's not really just that I like to perform. It's that I like to make people believe in something. I like to make them feel inspired, excited. Whether that's through Akeel and the bee having a conversation here with y'all or you and your family getting together, watching Password. The macro goal, the real goal that I'm servicing that never has an ending, is to just make people Believe and feel good and inspired. And so I think that's another thing that I hear with Noelle is like, that's the. The micro goal was to do this thing.

[Craig Robinson]

The book. The book.

[Keke Palmer]

The micro goal was to do the book. But the macro goal, you're. You. You gotta really identify that to yourself. And that helps you to know that I'm going in the right direction. You feel that you're being of service to that macro goal, even when these micro goals go in the random directions that you didn't expect because, you know, you're still serv. That real thing.

[Craig Robinson]

But this is why I want, you know, this piece of advice is for Noelle, but it's also for parents out there. It's for teachers. It's for the people who work with young people. You know, I think we put too much emphasis on titles and salaries and stuff like that. I mean, you know, one reason why I said I wanted to be a lawyer was because when you say that out loud and you were a little kid, the adults responses are always, oh, that's so wonderful. Right? Like, they don't even know what that is. It's like, it sounds good, you know, I want my daughter to be a lawyer.

[Keke Palmer]

That's so true.

[Craig Robinson]

You know, so we are constantly giving feedback to kids subtly and directly about what makes for a good life, what makes for a good career choice, what makes you a good person. And a lot of times it's tied to what's your title, what's your salary, what school did you go to? What's that named?

[Noelle]

School.

[Craig Robinson]

And we're sending those subtle messages. So now you become Noelle, and you've been all throughout your life pursuing these little applause lines that you get from adults that are a sign that this is good. Oh, you wanna write a book? Oh, that sounds impressive. Right? Guess I wanna write a book. You know, mom reacted pretty well to that. And so now I see young people getting caught at going after words, titles, things, right? A salary. I wanna be rich. I wanna be this name thing. And that keeps them from understanding their macro because they're not spending time thinking about, who am I?

[Keke Palmer]

That's right.

[Craig Robinson]

And what do I wanna be in life? Because when I had to transition out of law, that was the first time when I at that stage, after all that debt, I don't want to be a lawyer. Now I have to do the hard work of figuring out, well, who do I want to be? Because none of my degrees taught me to even think like that. No one had ever asked those questions. I was getting a's and awards and all that. But nobody ever said, who is Michelle and who do you want to be in the world? So I had to do that work on my own and start meeting with different people and hearing about different jobs and careers. Because I was even limited to going to the best schools in the country. I was shown, like, 10 careers I could be. Of all the things in the world, you know, how did you discover?

[Keke Palmer]

How did you get yourself to that answer? I'm curious.

[Craig Robinson]

I started doing. I started meeting with people. I started thinking. I had to start thinking outside of the box. Like, what do I enjoy? Yeah.

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah.

[Craig Robinson]

And it went back to kids and inspiring. It went back to mentoring. And it's like, I get my most fulfillment. I wake up and pop out of bed when I'm gonna sit down with another young person who was like me. And I could, like, share with them some secrets, some things I learned to help make their life a little bit easier. Because I know just how many young people just don't know.

[Keke Palmer]

And you really do that?

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah.

[Keke Palmer]

And it is really. I don't wanna just. I mean, I know we're hearing it. I'm not being biased, but. But you really do that. And it means so much to us, especially when you talk about, you know, family and unity. I think that's something that our generation is really struggling with right now. Not trying to speak for everybody, but we just don't know how to be a we. We don't always understand how to get from challenges to peace. It's like everything is like, well, challenges came, we gone. And it's like, yeah, I'm sure sometimes that's important to do. But when you speak about your family and how you've gotten to where you are, and you always talk about there were challenges, but what you get on the other side of going, getting through that is what you're looking for.

[Craig Robinson]

But before you can understand the we, you have to understand the me. You know, Like, I had to take some time to really understand my. I'll use your. My macro. What did I care about? How do I wanna be in the world? How do I wanna impact people? And so from there, really sort of saying to myself, well, my joy comes from giving and working with other people and working with young people. That's really my joy. Right. And then now, like, what are the careers I can do with that? Who are the people that do this? And their teachers is like, I don't know if I wanna be in a classroom, have some conversations with professors. I started talking to people at Universities, because young adults were there. I met with deans of students. I wrote to presidents of universities. Northwestern. I wrote to the president of the University of Chicago. I was just making this stuff up. And I sent letters saying, this is who I am. I'm a young attorney. I went to these schools. I'd love to come and talk to you. And I got a lot of no's, but I got a handful of yeses. And I remember meeting with the head of corporation counsel for the University of Chicago. I'll never forget Art Sussman, who has passed. He just said, I would love to meet with you because he was an attorney. And I sat down, took time off of lunch, went, met with him, talked about the university and all the things that you can do there. And then he introduced me to Susan Scher, who eventually became my chief of staff as first lady. Wow. She was working in the mayor's office as corporation counsel. Eventually, she introduced me to Valerie Jarrett, who then hired me to work in the city. These are people who are now all my longtime friends. But this all came from me trying to find out my. Me. And through it, I met all these strangers. None of these people knew me.

[Keke Palmer]

But built to this story.

[Craig Robinson]

And I started trying on other things. I just tried on other careers. I worked for the city in planning and development. I worked in the mayor's office. I started a nonprofit organization working with young people. All of this stuff built. And all those different careers and experiences started helping me understand my. My me. Right. And I just want to wrap it up by saying that point, by saying, we've got to find a way as parents and teachers to make that a part of the process of deciding who and what you wanna be. And it has to involve some exploration. And instead of keeping the aperture of possibility for kids open and not asking them to narrow it so much so that they only start. They focus on the wrong things.

[Keke Palmer]

Yes. And comparing.

[Craig Robinson]

And get confused about what true happiness is. So.

[Noelle]

Yeah. No, that's so. So let's try and give Noelle some advice to. Because I'm hearing from both of you, this macro thing is something to really grab onto. How can we help Noelle find her macro?

[Keke Palmer]

That's a really good question. I always do personal prompts like, what she was just saying is, ask myself. Write down. Ask myself a question that I would ask someone else. What makes me happy? How does food service? That. How can I be of service? To me, a good way to find your. Your macro is, I think, always of a point of view of service. I truly believe that we all feel most purposeful when we are being service to something else. You think that it's when you're getting. When you're receiving accolades, but actually it's when you're giving stuff out. And so I would ask myself, how do I feel like I can best be of service? What makes me happy, and how does food play a part in those things? That would be my first three. Just to throw something out there to help lead her there.

[Craig Robinson]

I would also want Noelle to think about, what does happiness mean? What does that mean? Right. Because I also notice among young people, because I mentor a lot of young people, the expectations of life are outsized.

[Keke Palmer]

Yes.

[Craig Robinson]

I mean, I just think it is true. I think there is. We have a generation of young people in their 20s who think that the goal is their personal happiness, period. And that is just not life. You know? I mean, service is a better goal than happiness because, you know, life is full of bumps and bruises. And if we're teaching young people that it's all about happiness, because Noelle has been. She's been chasing some false belief of happiness. Like, there's a place that you land where the land is forever happy, and there is never a bump. I hear that that's part of her disappointment because she's waiting for the thing to be perfect.

[Keke Palmer]

I think that's also a big thing. When we're talking about the generation and just how we're all growing through this phase, There is a reality that I think has to hit us all that discomfort is a part of life.

[Craig Robinson]

It is a part of life.

[Keke Palmer]

Like, this period that Noelle is also in is like, that may just be the vibe right now.

[Craig Robinson]

That's right. It's like, we don't have to. Right. You achieved a thing, and now you had a high with it. You celebrated it, and now it levels back off.

[Keke Palmer]

Right?

[Craig Robinson]

So now, dude, does Noelle know how to deal with level? Does she know how to. Does she know how to exist when life is just life?

[Keke Palmer]

Yes.

[Craig Robinson]

You know, and I talk to my girls about this all the time. It's like, learn to be satisfied.

[Keke Palmer]

My mom says it to me, too.

[Craig Robinson]

This was a thing that our parents said. This is another Midwestern Chicago south that.

[Noelle]

Never satisfied.

[Craig Robinson]

Never satisfied. I mean, we didn't have anything, but the minute we acted like we weren't appreciating what was on our plate. Yeah. It was like, never satisfied. How you asking for something and you still have something on your plate? You know, you have. I tell my girls the greatest gift that they can have develop for themselves is the ability to be self sat, to be happy where you are, whatever that is. Content to learn how to be like, this is not exciting. I'm not winning, I'm not losing. I'm not achieving. It's not a party. I don't have friends around every day. It's like most. Most of life is just. It's not the nothing in the middle.

[Keke Palmer]

Yes.

[Craig Robinson]

And I think this generation, they don't want that nothing in the middle. You know, when things. When things are just bland, which is y'all. Most of life is just ordinary. You know, you gotta learn how to be happy alone, you gotta be happy. A little bored, you gotta be. You gotta be happy when things are hard. You gotta learn how to be satisfied when you failed. And things don't go your way. Cause all of that keeps you getting up. But I think there are a lot of young people who are searching for this impossible feeling of continuous happiness.

[Keke Palmer]

I'm curious what you both. Because we were talking about the generation, but it's also like. It's like when I was saying the age I went through of blaming my parents. Okay. This is the age of having to realize that you have to be comfortable in discomfort and everything's not gonna go your way. When you think about you in your early 30s, what you know, and you're dealing with the new reality of. Because that's the thing is we all are breaking the realities that we thought would be.

[Craig Robinson]

At 18.

[Keke Palmer]

I'm grown, okay. Not really in my 20s. It's fun, actually. This was terrible at 30 realizations that I have to contend with. How was it for you guys when you were approaching that and had to come to those realizations?

[Craig Robinson]

How did you deal for me?

[Noelle]

Go ahead, you go.

[Craig Robinson]

You know what I've learned now that I'm 60, right? Cause there's.

[Keke Palmer]

I know that's right.

[Craig Robinson]

There's wisdom, you know, you look back on your life, you only know what you know. And of course you thought you were grown at 20. Of course you thought you knew what you were doing at 30. Of course that's all you knew. I used to joke with the girls. It's like when they have some epiphany about life that I was telling them. It's like I told you that when you were 10. I've been telling you that girl, you know, And I'm getting a lot in their 20s. Well, mom, you were right. I didn't even think about that. I was like, just imagine. You just were. You've. You're at. You're 20, you just now putting together sentences. You know, at 20, you got five years of that. You couldn't even talk straight. Right. You didn't. You know, you were learning how to go to the bathroom on the toilet. You. You know, it's true. Life is like. You're young. You just haven't even been here long enough. And now that I'm, you know, wisdom comes with age. So with wisdom and hindsight, I realized that that is life. Life is becoming like we are always becoming. There is no point in which you stop learning and discovering and you get to a place where, ah, this is it. And do you really want that?

[Keke Palmer]

That would be crazy.

[Craig Robinson]

That would be crazy. At this stage, I am still becoming. I've learned something new about myself as a woman. I'm more in touch with my confidence. I know what I know, and I feel more empowered to claim what I know. I don't doubt myself in the ways that I did in my 40s and 50s. Because that's still coming for you too.

[Keke Palmer]

You know, and that's what I'm hearing from you is literally just to keep living, you know, that just, you know, the expectations and the, you know, I think that's the thing is like, you know, yeah, we're always becoming. I think that's a great way to put that because, yeah, it's never ending, these realizations that we're gonna have.

[Noelle]

And we'll leave Noelle with this as we close.

[Craig Robinson]

Are we closing already?

[Keke Palmer]

We're closing.

[Noelle]

We're closing, unfortunately. But we want to send Noelle home with Find your macro.

[Keke Palmer]

Yes.

[Noelle]

Stay away from those titles.

[Craig Robinson]

Yeah.

[Noelle]

And keep becoming.

[Keke Palmer]

Yeah, keep becoming.

[Craig Robinson]

Well, you better wrap that up. But I also want to remind Noelle and young people that happiness is within your power. You know, the happiness.

[Keke Palmer]

Now, what do we mean by that?

[Craig Robinson]

The happiness that she is trying to find in this job, in this book, this whatever. It's not the external achievements. It's. Are you. Are you good with you when you're all alone and achieving nothing and nobody's around? Have you learned, Noelle, how to be okay with you? Because that disappointment, you know, the next achievement will happen and it will pass.

[Keke Palmer]

That's right.

[Craig Robinson]

You know, the next big thing will come and it will go. And when you are left, what you're left with is yourself. And that's that self work that I would want Noelle to do. You know, thinking about the prompts of who you are, who you want to be. But I think all young people, you will not find your happiness on. On social media. You won't find it In a salary. You won't find it in a title, you know, you will find it once you figure out what really grounds you. And as you said, Keke, a lot of times that's serving others, you know, and if Noelle gets out of her head and balances out her achievements with some giving, you know, I think that she will find more peace. I think that's. I just wanna.

[Noelle]

No, that's perfect. Because Noelle's getting it from the young and the not so young.

[Craig Robinson]

You better watch it. I'm on the floor. You best so watch it.

[Keke Palmer]

Oh, my gosh, I love it.

[Craig Robinson]

He's the old man at the table, by the way.

[Noelle]

Keke, this has been terrific. We loved having you.

[Craig Robinson]

Oh, you were so wise. No, he's such a little old wife.

[Keke Palmer]

Just cause I listened to you. That's right. Guys, please let me come back anytime.

[Noelle]

Please, anytime.

[Craig Robinson]

I just need to get the drinks firsthand. We will find you.

[Keke Palmer]

Because the tea that you just laid.

[Craig Robinson]

On me today, you had some tea too. Some tea with some lemon. And then, Craig, you had some things to say.

[Keke Palmer]

Well, you know, we are a perfect match. Capricorn and Virgo and also Taurus. We're always.

[Craig Robinson]

This is a good balance table. Keke, I'm so proud of you, girl. Thank you. I really am. You are showing up in the world and being the role model you were. You know, you were putting your light out there and we all feel it.

[Keke Palmer]

It means the world to me. You're an inspiration. I'm so glad to meet you. You are inspiration as well. Both of you.

[Noelle]

Sweet of you. This discussion's not over. We'll have another one.

[Keke Palmer]

Yay.

[Craig Robinson]

Yay.

[Noelle]

Your girl's coming back.

[Craig Robinson]

Happy about that. Thank you, babe. Thank you, thank you.

[Michelle Obama]

I hope you enjoyed that preview of IMO with Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson. Find more episodes wherever you get your podcasts.