The Ambition Trap: Amina AlTai on Finding Purpose in Hustle Culture

Summary

Podcast Summary: "The Ambition Trap: Rachel Rogers on Finding Purpose in Hustle Culture"

Podcast Information:

• Title: She's So Lucky
• Host: Brittany Hennessy
• Guest: Rachel Rogers, author of The Ambition Trap
• Release Date: July 29, 2025

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Introduction

In this enlightening episode of She's So Lucky, host Brittany Hennessy welcomes Rachel Rogers, an executive coach and author of The Ambition Trap. The conversation delves deep into the pitfalls of modern hustle culture and explores how ambition, when misaligned with personal values, can lead to feelings of emptiness despite outward success.

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Personal Journey: The Wake-Up Call

Rachel opens up about a pivotal moment six years into her marketing career. Despite having a seemingly perfect professional life—complete with titles and accolades—she began experiencing severe health issues due to relentless work hours and neglecting self-care.

[03:21] Rachel Rogers: “I was running this marketing agency and doing 70, 80-hour work weeks, taking care of everybody but myself. I started to feel really sick.”

Her wake-up call came unexpectedly during a summer Friday drive when a doctor urgently advised her to seek immediate medical attention to prevent multiple organ failure. Initially dismissive, Rachel's realization of the gravity of her situation marked the beginning of her journey to redefine her relationship with ambition.

[04:11] Rachel Rogers: “That was the moment I realized that my relationship to success and work and ambition was clearly dysfunctional and distorted.”

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Healing Process: Reconnecting with Purpose

Following her health crisis, Rachel embarked on what she terms her "Eat Pray Love" year—a period dedicated to holistic healing. This involved:

• Physical Healing: Addressing her immediate health concerns.
• Coaching and Mindfulness: Engaging with life coaching, studying mindfulness, and somatics.
• Exploration: Experimenting with various wellness practices without the pressure to monetize them.

This multifaceted approach allowed Rachel to feel more whole and eventually led her to design her own coaching curriculum, which she has been teaching for the past decade.

[05:37] Rachel Rogers: “It was really messy and took years, but it was a journey towards purposeful ambition.”

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Coaching: The Importance of Discernment

Brittany and Rachel discuss the critical aspect of choosing the right coach. Both emphasize the need for:

• Clarity on Personal Needs: Understanding what one seeks from coaching.
• Intuition and Vibes: Trusting one's feelings about a coach's integrity and approach.
• Self-Reflection: Recognizing one's role in the coaching relationship to avoid repeating past mistakes.

Rachel highlights the importance of aligning with coaches who operate with integrity, especially in an unregulated industry where not all coaches uphold the same standards.

[09:37] Rachel Rogers: “It's up to us to decide who we want to align ourselves with and to operate with the utmost integrity.”

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The Ambition Trap: Painful vs. Purposeful Ambition

Rachel introduces the core concept of her book, distinguishing between:

• Painful Ambition: Driven by core wounds such as rejection, abandonment, humiliation, betrayal, and injustice. This form of ambition often leads to burnout and a cycle of seeking validation through external achievements.

  [16:53] Rachel Rogers: “When our ambition is built upon our core wounds, it can be a house of cards without awareness.”

• Purposeful Ambition: Aligns with personal values and a genuine desire for growth and contribution, leading to sustainable motivation and fulfillment.

She asserts that ambition itself is neutral and seeks to redefine it as a tool for personal and communal betterment rather than mere accumulation of accolades.

[18:18] Rachel Rogers: “Ambition is simply a desire for more life, a wish to unfold, but we need it to be purposeful.”

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Eldest Daughter Energy: The Hidden Pressures

The discussion shifts to the unique pressures faced by eldest daughters, who often feel responsible for paving the way for younger siblings and breaking familial or cultural barriers. Rachel uses the "wolf pack" metaphor to illustrate how eldest children bear the brunt to ensure a smoother path for those who follow.

[21:40] Rachel Rogers: “Eldest daughters often understand that their role is to walk in front, taking more hits so the rest of the pack is preserved.”

This dynamic contributes to their vulnerability to the ambition trap, as they strive to meet both personal and external expectations.

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Wellness: Dual Nature and Its Impact on Ambition

Rachel and Brittany explore the complex relationship between wellness and ambition. While wellness practices can support and nourish one's journey, they can also become tools for self-punishment or perpetuate harmful standards, especially in environments like the fitness industry that may emphasize appearance over well-being.

[25:27] Rachel Rogers: “In the wellness space, it was like, 'here's all the things that are wrong with you that you need to fix.'"

Rachel emphasizes the importance of rebranding wellness to focus on personal nourishment rather than prescriptive solutions.

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Purpose and Zones of Genius: Uncovering Personal Strengths

Rachel challenges traditional notions of genius, advocating for a broader understanding that includes soft skills like empathy, deep listening, and intuition. She encourages listeners to recognize and celebrate their unique strengths, which may not always align with conventional definitions.

[43:27] Rachel Rogers: “We have people with all types of genius—it can look different, but everyone has some.”

She introduces the concept of "constellation of purpose," suggesting that purpose can encompass multiple passions and strengths rather than a single defining mission.

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Failure and Resilience: Embracing Setbacks for Growth

Both Rachel and Brittany discuss the inevitability of failure and its role in personal growth. They advocate for redefining failure as an essential part of the learning process rather than a permanent setback.

[37:46] Rachel Rogers: “We're meant to lose speed so that we can reshore up the foundation and regain speed down the line.”

Rachel shares personal anecdotes about public failures and how embracing them has strengthened her foundation and integrity.

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Community and Representation: The Power of Diverse Voices

Rachel highlights the scarcity of Middle Eastern women authors in the publishing industry, stressing the importance of diverse perspectives in empowering marginalized communities. She views her work as an act of community care, aiming to provide healing and inspiration for those who share similar backgrounds and experiences.

[49:57] Rachel Rogers: “Publishing is an ambition trap, but doing it in integrity is a form of community care.”

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Conclusion

The episode concludes with actionable advice for listeners grappling with ambition and seeking to cultivate a more purposeful approach:

• Self-Awareness: Recognize the masks and wounds driving your ambition.
• Discernment in Coaching: Choose coaches who align with your values and needs.
• Embrace Failure: View setbacks as opportunities for growth and strengthening your foundation.
• Celebrate Diverse Genius: Acknowledge and nurture your unique strengths and those of others around you.

Rachel Rogers' insights offer a roadmap for transforming ambition from a source of burnout into a pathway for meaningful and sustainable success.

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Notable Quotes:

• Rachel Rogers [03:21]: “That was the moment I realized that my relationship to success and work and ambition was clearly dysfunctional and distorted.”
• Rachel Rogers [09:37]: “It's up to us to decide who we want to align ourselves with and to operate with the utmost integrity.”
• Rachel Rogers [16:53]: “When our ambition is built upon our core wounds, it can be a house of cards without awareness.”
• Rachel Rogers [21:40]: “Eldest daughters often understand that their role is to walk in front, taking more hits so the rest of the pack is preserved.”
• Rachel Rogers [43:27]: “We have people with all types of genius—it can look different, but everyone has some.”
• Rachel Rogers [49:57]: “Publishing is an ambition trap, but doing it in integrity is a form of community care.”

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This episode serves as a compelling exploration of how ambition can both drive and derail, offering listeners valuable strategies to harness their desires for growth in ways that are aligned with their true selves and values.

Transcript

[Brittany Hennessy]

The following podcast is a Dear Media production.

[Amina Altai]

Welcome back to the she's so Lucky podcast. If you're listening to this podcast, you probably identify as an ambitious person. Now, ambition is not a dirty word by any means, but getting to the root of where our ambition comes from can make all the difference in feeling inspired versus feeling burnt doubt. Today I'm joined by Amina Altai, executive coach and author of the Ambition Trap. In this conversation, we dig into why moments when we're supposed to feel on top of the world and feel accomplished can often leave us feeling empty. And how we can reconnect with our values to reach for purposeful, aligned goals. Amina really practices what she preaches and has so much practical advice and insight that can help us feel motivated from a place of purpose, not free from ego. So let's get lucky with Amina.

[Brittany Hennessy]

Welcome to the show.

[Rachel Rogers]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Brittany Hennessy]

I'm so excited to have you because, well, as we were just talking about before we're rolling, I feel like we know so many of the same people and have so much overlap just with people that we've worked with. We've also been planning this episode for a long time.

[Rachel Rogers]

We have. I've been following your journey for a long time. I love your content, so I'm super excited to be here. Thank you.

[Brittany Hennessy]

Thank you so much. Okay, so the question that I've been asking everybody lately to kick off interviews, it's about a lucky moment that they've had, and that could be a moment where you felt like you created your own luck, or that could be a moment that felt kismet, like something just aligned and lined up for you.

[Rachel Rogers]

I just got emotional thinking about that. So a lucky moment that happened recently. So Rachel Rogers wrote the foreword to my book, and she's been so wonderful and so supportive of this journey and just like my entrepreneurship journey in general. And she introduced me to a really awesome celeb that just launched a podcast and we got the opportunity to be on the show and go to their house. And it was such a pinch me moment. And I was like, rachel, this is literally the nicest thing that anyone has ever done for me in the 20 years of my career. Like, it was so generous and it was a real pinch me moment.

[Brittany Hennessy]

I love that. Also love Rachel. She's been on the show before and is like a friend of the she's so lucky universe. But I think something that I especially love and admire about her is her generosity in whether she's connecting you with somebody or sharing resources or anything.

[Rachel Rogers]

She has such a generosity of spirit. Like I always say to her. I'm like, rachel, you're such a fun grownup because there's just so much abundance in her joy and she wants to bring everybody into that. And I think that's so beautiful.

[Brittany Hennessy]

Yes, exactly. So we are going to talk about your book today, the Ambition Track, which I'm excited to talk about. And I finished it last week, the week before we recorded this a little bit before this is coming out. And I was at ROI Summit hosted by Rachel also. So I'm like, oh, this is just all connected.

[Rachel Rogers]

It is.

[Brittany Hennessy]

But I actually love to talk about a story that you opened the book with for the people who haven't read the book yet is you talked about kind of a wake up call that you had that made you rethink your relationship to Ambition. Can you take us back there and tell us what happened?

[Rachel Rogers]

Yes. So I was six years into my marketing career and I had one of those great shiny on paper lives where I had the title and all of the accolades, everything that I wanted at that moment in my life. And I was running this marketing agency and sort of doing the 70, 80 hour work weeks and taking care of everybody but myself. And I started to feel really sick. But I'd kind of like pushed it off and just brushed it off and kept going. I'm the child of immigrants. I was taught to keep my head down, to work hard, to be the first one in, the last one out, to not make waves. And I really lived into that. And then, you know, started to feel really sick. And I had been to seven different doctors because medical gaslighting is real. And then finally found this one doctor who took me seriously and she ran all these tests. And so I opened the book by talking about this call that I got from her. So it's a Friday, a summer Friday, like a lot like today. Like, it was scorching hot. I remember the heat so much. And I'm driving from Manhattan to Connecticut to a client for a regular Friday meeting. And she calls me and I'm like super annoyed at the time. I'm like, I have to like, get to this client. I don't like to be like, sidetracked. Like, what's going on? And I answer the phone and then I hear her on the other side and it's almost like a pause before she even says anything. And I'm like, what is she like, steadying herself for? And. And then she says, amina, if you don't go to the hospital now, Instead of going to your client, you'll be days away from multiple organ failure. And it's like, what 28 year old hears that? What 28 year old gets that phone call? And that was sort of my stop moment. That was the moment that I realized that I had to change my whole life because my relationship to success and work and ambition was clearly dysfunctional and distorted. But the wild thing is, and I've only just started telling of this part of the story, the wild thing is, is that I actually didn't go to the hospital after I got that call. I went to work, I went to the client. And then I think it just took a while for it to land in my body. You know, I was so disassociated and so disconnected that it took like all day. And then finally I was like, huh, maybe I should go to the hospital. And then I went at the end.

[Brittany Hennessy]

Of the day, oh my gosh. So it probably in that moment even getting that news, you just didn't even process it yet.

[Rachel Rogers]

I didn't because I don't think I lived in my body at that time. I think I was very much, you know, living in my head and felt like these were two separate things. And it literally took me all day for that message to land.

[Brittany Hennessy]

Oh my goodness. And so after you got to that point where you're like, okay, this is real, this is a wake up call and I'm listening to it, what was the process then like for you to begin healing your relationship with ambition? And what was that process?

[Rachel Rogers]

I mean, the way that I tell the story now is so linear, but of course it was so messy. And actually I went to the doctor and then I went down this path of sort of healing my body. And then my roommate at the time, I was telling her everything that was happening to me health wise, and she was like this woman that I work with went to life coaching. Like, I don't know, I just feel like sharing that with you. And I was like, huh, that feels like something I should look into. And so I call it my Eat Pray Love year, because I literally was just trying everything to feel better. So worked on my physical body, went to coaching to just kind of heal my relationship in lots of different areas of my life and studied mindfulness and somatics, and at the end of that started to feel so much more whole and so much better that I eventually was like, huh, like I want to figure out a way to teach this. But it was really messy and it took years and I wrestled with the idea of Teaching it for such a long time because I didn't want to be a coach for so long because, like, that word I think is loaded for a lot of us. But yeah, after kind of three years of that twist and turn journey and even going back to corporate for a little while, I eventually was like, you know what? I think this is my zone of genius. I think this is what I'm supposed to do. And I designed my own curriculum and have been teaching it for the last 10 years.

[Brittany Hennessy]

Okay. There's so many things that I want to dig into with what you just shared first being. I think sometimes even when you've been on, whether it's like a personal development journey or some sort of wellness journey, even when you have the tools and you know what to do, sometimes we still kind of go in and out of actually using them. Yeah. What you had just talked about with Somatics, I have had a very similar experience where I realized, like, somatic practices really helped me and I knew to do them like eft tapping I've recently gotten back into. I was introduced to it back six years ago from a coach that I used to work with. And I knew, I knew how much it helped me, but I just hadn't done it for years. And how easy it can be to kind of waver and go in and out of things. And I say that. Not that, oh, if we have tools and we don't use them, but it's just a reminder that different things can serve us at different times.

[Rachel Rogers]

Yes. And every next level of our life, we need a different version of the tools. So sometimes it's like we use them very intensely and we put them to the side and then there's a next level where we revisit them again. And I think it's beautiful to come back to them. It's beautiful to release them and make space for others. All of it's welcome.

[Brittany Hennessy]

Yeah, exactly. And then I also wanted to talk to you about the coach point.

[Rachel Rogers]

Yes.

[Brittany Hennessy]

Because candidly I. I also sometimes have a reaction.

[Rachel Rogers]

Okay, coaching, let's go there.

[Brittany Hennessy]

Let's not in the sense where I haven't done it because I have worked with some amazing coaches and still do. But I get very skeptical, even skeptical when I bring coaches onto this show because I get pitch probably a dozen pitches a week from people who are coaches of different things. And I'm always very picky.

[Rachel Rogers]

Yes.

[Brittany Hennessy]

About the coaches that I work with and that I bring here because I think sometimes it can just be a little. A little spooky. Yes. So I would love to talk about your experiences kind of working in that space and then how you decided to step into that zone of genius.

[Rachel Rogers]

Yes. So I've candidly had wonderful experiences with the coaches that I've worked with. But like you, I'm very discerning, and I will take my time to really weigh and measure if it's the right person for me, if I get any kind of vibe or the ick, like I'm not going towards it, or if I feel like it's very salesy and pressurey, like I'm not going towards it. Like, I really use my intuition deeply with that. And it took me a long time to be okay with that label of coach. Like, for the longest time, I called myself an advisor or a guy, like, dancing around the term so much. But what I realized is that every career, every space has a spectrum of humans.

[Brittany Hennessy]

Right.

[Rachel Rogers]

And there are ones that are doing things with deep integrity, and then there are ones that are maybe operating in the shadows. And it's up to us to really decide who we want to align ourselves with. And I know who I want to be and how I want to coach, and I want to operate with the utmost integrity. And so I think we have to find our own way in those labels. It's unfortunate because I think there are such beautiful tools in this space and such wonderful teachers, but it's an unregulated space. And so then you also get a lot of people that are operating in the shadows, and so we just have to be a bit more cautious. But it really took me a minute to be in right relationship with that word. I resisted it for a very long time.

[Amina Altai]

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[Rachel Rogers]

If.

[Brittany Hennessy]

There are people who are looking to kind of, I guess, build up their discernment of like, I'm looking for a coach, whether it's like an executive coach or a life coach or career coach, health coach, what would you recommend they do to kind of strengthen their discernment, to be able to know that they're working with the right people.

[Rachel Rogers]

Yes. What's really interesting? So a lot of people come to me after they've been burned by a coach and they A lot of the times it's based on shiny object syndrome. So they'll see like a very well known sort of shiny coach, the multiple seven, eight figure coaches, that kind of vibe. And then maybe they didn't necessarily get what they needed from it. So when that's the case, I'm always like, okay, what didn't work? What didn't you get? Because I don't want this ever to be a repeat of that. So I think it's really important that even before we talk to anybody, we get really clear on what we need. So, like, where's the gap for you? What do you actually need and then the type of coach that you need. Right. I always say that my job as a coach is like, I wear lots of different hats. Like, sometimes you need me to be CEO, sometimes you need me to be Sherpa, sometimes you need me to be like, he, like all these different vibes. And so what are the vibes and energies and types of coach that you need? And then is that represented in the person in front of you? And then after you connect with these people, check in with yourself. Right? Because like, what did your body feel? What did your heart feel? What did your head feel like? Did we check the boxes on all of those areas or just one of them? Because a lot of the times when we're kind of swept away with the excitement of somebody, it's like, maybe it's just the heart, maybe it's just the head, but it's not all three. And I think we need to have alignment with all three of those spaces.

[Brittany Hennessy]

That's super helpful. I've also learned to ask more questions, which sounds so obvious, but sometimes you can't. People are really good salespeople. And it also, if you work with somebody and they end up not being a good fit, it doesn't always mean like, you're bad or anything. It could mean the tools that they use just aren't what you need or it doesn't resonate with you. And so after having a few experiences where I was like, actually something here isn't clicking, I've then started asking more questions about, well, what is your style? How do you communicate? What tools do you leverage to be able to understand? Okay, does what this person has to offer, will that click for me and for how my brain works? And if not, then they're probably not going to be a good fit.

[Rachel Rogers]

Exactly. And I love what you just said. You just highlighted something so important, like what's on our side of the street too. There was a time That I worked with a coach. I worked with her two years in a row. And the first year was incredible. Like, we knocked it out of the park. And there was a part of me that knew that we were complete at the end of that first year. But then I didn't want to say no, and I wanted to be able to stretch myself a little bit, and I didn't even allow myself that moment to go back underground to rest before I, you know, take took aim again. And at the end of that second year, when I took stock of how we did, I was like, a lot of this is on my side of the street. Like, actually, it wasn't aligned the second time, but I was just swept up with the waves of what happened the first time that I said yes again when it wasn't in full integrity. And so you're right. It's like, it's a dance. Right. And we each have to look at.

[Brittany Hennessy]

Our side for sure. Especially if you're coming to, like, really need something for it or you have an objective that you're hoping to work through. If you're working with a coach, it's really important to not lose sight of that so that you can get what you need. I've learned that the hard way.

[Rachel Rogers]

Yes. Yes. I have lit my fair share of money on fire, so I really can't.

[Brittany Hennessy]

Exactly. I'm like, well, that was an expensive lesson.

[Rachel Rogers]

Exactly. Won't make it again.

[Brittany Hennessy]

Yes, exactly. I would love to come back to ambition and to talk more about why you think so many of us fall into the ambition trap. Yeah.

[Rachel Rogers]

So I specifically wrote this book for historically excluded people, for women, for people of color with disabilities, for the LGBTQIA community. We have a different experience with ambition. We experience more headwinds and fewer tailwinds, and we also experience what's known as an ambition penalty. And I was somebody that, like, really lived in the ambition trap and just had such a tenuous relationship with it. And I think part of it is, you know, how we're shaped. Right. I watched my dad, who's a brown man, who was an immigrant, have a really tenuous relationship with ambition, and I took on a lot of those traits. And then our own lived experiences shape us, too. Right. So in the book, I talk about two types of ambition. There is painful ambition, which is driven by our core wounds, and we each have one. We have more than one, some of us. Right. So they are rejection, abandonment, humiliation, betrayal, and injustice. And as a result of those core wounds, we wear a corresponding mask. So if you have a Rejection wound, the mask you wear is avoidance. If you have a betrayal wound, the mask you wear is control. I'm raising my hand. And so when our ambition is built upon that, it can be a house of cards if we have no awareness of that. And so the invitation with the book is to have people come into that more purposeful relationship ambition, what I call purposeful ambition. But at the root of it, I think ambition is neutral and natural. It's simply a desire for more life, a wish to unfold. But we live in a world that makes it right for some people and wrong for others. And that's part of what I wanted to course correct in the book.

[Brittany Hennessy]

Something that I really appreciated that you talked about is how it can be such a slippery slope because we're often rewarded. Even if you fall into a painful ambition cycle and you're doing all of these things and you're collecting accolades, even if that's coming from a place of pain, on the outside, it looks really good. So you're often encouraged to do it more. And it's such a cycle, and I know it's something that I've definitely fallen into. And it's like you keep going until you either burn out like you described, have some sort of health crisis, or have something that really gets your attention. And so I really appreciate how much you talk about. Okay, let's stop this before it gets to that point.

[Rachel Rogers]

Yes. And as a coach, I'm a firm believer of, like, we get our lessons, when we get lessons. It's like, you can't save anybody from their lessons. Right. So we're all going to experience the pain that we need to experience with ambition until we decide to live into the purposeful parts. And so for sure, it's a journey and it's a really personal one.

[Brittany Hennessy]

Yeah. I felt really seen during. When I was reading about the rejection wound, I had an experience a couple years ago where I got ghosted by a man. And I think my ego was more hurt than my feelings. And the way that I handled that was like, I'm just going to be everywhere. Like, he's gonna ghost me. So my content is gonna be everywhere. My podcast is gonna blow up. He's avoiding me. Well, he's not gonna be able to open his phone without me popping up. And I think to an extent that was like, low key. True. And then I ended up getting completely burned out and needing to have my own little Eat, Pray, Love moment, which ended up ultimately being really beautiful. Yeah. But I probably could have also just taken the time to travel and enjoy my life without it needing to be wrapped up in this whole experience and then also burning myself out to get there. And so during that part, I felt really seen.

[Rachel Rogers]

Yes. I. I have a rejection wound, too, and I love that story. I think it's beautiful. Thank you for sharing it. It also, I'm just like, yeah, be out there and, like, let your podcast blow up. And also, it's like you had to get that lesson and have that experience so that you wouldn't do that again. Right. So that, like, live into alignment for yourself and decide what feels best for you and not push and force to try to be seen. Right. You've, like, done the work on the inside, so the stuff on the outside doesn't matter as much. And so, yeah, I love that story. And also, it's like you had to get that lesson so you could be here.

[Brittany Hennessy]

Yeah. And even that reframe of it's okay to also want to have something be really big, and maybe a healthier version of that is so that it can help people and reach the people it's meant to reach. Not for this other thing. Because my ego feels bruised 100%.

[Rachel Rogers]

And I often feel like moments like that reshore up the foundation. It's like we have to have these rock bottoms, these ego deaths, and I'm a Scorpio, and I've, like, had many tower moments. I feel like it's, like, such an important part of the journey because then the foundation gets stronger. So what you build upon then is that much more robust. Right. Like this podcast, even more robust. Because it's built on integrity versus the proving energy. Yeah.

[Brittany Hennessy]

Which can be so, so hard.

[Rachel Rogers]

Yes.

[Brittany Hennessy]

I also want to talk about having some of the eldest daughter energy, because that is wrapped up in it. I know I have it. I know you described it. Why do you think eldest daughters in particular are more susceptible to falling into the ambition trap?

[Rachel Rogers]

Yeah. You know, it's really interesting. So, like, I'm actually the second child, but I feel like the eldest because in the book, I talk about how growing up, my older sister was really sick, and so I had to kind of take care of my younger sisters. I think for a lot of us, especially, like, when you're the first. Right. Like, if you're the child of immigrants or you're the first to do a certain thing in the family, there's so much pressure on your shoulders, whether spoken or unspoken. I was actually in a beautiful conversation last week. It was the Arab American association of Bankers, and it was like all these dads in the audience learning so that they could do a better job with their daughters. And I was like, I'm obsessed with this. But I think so many of us don't realize that we place these unconscious expectations on our children and then especially the firstborn. Right. They wanna live into those expectations. They don't wanna down. Also, there's this beautiful metaphor. Have you heard of the wolf pack metaphor? So basically, when wolves walk, they walk in a pack, right? The one in the front, like, understands the assignment and knows that they have to walk at the front. And walking at the front means that they're going to take more hits and get more scratches, but the rest of the pack will be preserved. And I think eldest daughter, eldest child syndrome is a lot like that. It's like we understand that our role is to walk in front and maybe we'll take some more hits, but it means the ones coming behind us can have a better, smoother journey. But I'm curious, what do you think?

[Brittany Hennessy]

Yeah, I could definitely see that. I mean, I think at least in my experience, it was a lot of just being the first to do things. It was like I was a first generation college student. I was, you know, the person to break the cycle of teen pregnancy in my family. I'm a first generation entrepreneur. I'm the first person to leave hometown and not live immediately next to everybody. And so I think, think being the one to do so many firsts at times can get really overwhelming because it's like the lack of support is there not in that people don't want to be supportive, but it's like when you're doing so many things that other people around you just haven't done, it's like they don't know how.

[Rachel Rogers]

It's such a beautiful point. Right. It's like you're figuring this out yourself. And it's like, maybe we don't have the network, maybe we don't have the emotional support because people haven't, you know, navigated that yet. And so you're cobbling it together in lots of ways. And the weight of that is so heavy sometimes.

[Brittany Hennessy]

Yeah. And I've also felt myself kind of being really particular with the language that I use to not create more of that pressure where it doesn't need to be. So a lot of people will be like, les, you feel like a big sister and this and that. And I'm like, that's so great if people feel that way. I personally do not not use that language because it's a little triggering. So I don't use it. And when people say that, I thank them. But I'm never going to be on here and be like, I'm your big sis.

[Rachel Rogers]

Yes.

[Brittany Hennessy]

No, I am not.

[Rachel Rogers]

Like, I have carried enough weight. Yes.

[Brittany Hennessy]

If people feel that way, that's great.

[Rachel Rogers]

Yeah.

[Brittany Hennessy]

But also for me, not putting that extra pressure on myself. Has to be everybody. Yeah.

[Rachel Rogers]

That's powerful.

[Brittany Hennessy]

Yeah. So I would also love to talk about how wellness fits into all of this, because I also really loved. And when you got into the part of the book where you were talking more so about tools and solutions, wellness was a really big part of that. But I think having been in the wellness space for a really long time, wellness can also be a slippery slope. And I even think that there could be these two sides to wellness. Almost like when we were talking about ambition, where there's like painful wellness and purposeful.

[Rachel Rogers]

Yes.

[Brittany Hennessy]

Because there can also be a lot of wellness that can be rooted in body image, size, self punishment, restriction, and creation.

[Rachel Rogers]

Yeah.

[Brittany Hennessy]

And finding ways that it can be really supportive and nourishing, especially if someone is going through their own journey of healing with ambition and what that looks like. So if you have kind of your own experiences with that, I would love to share as well as resources that you think are helpful.

[Rachel Rogers]

Yeah. So before I was a coach, I actually worked in the wellness space. And it was interesting because when in my marketing days, I mostly worked in beauty and luxury goods. And then after my Eat, Pray, Love year, when I was like, oh, my gosh, the wellness industry has brought me back to life. Like, this is a space I want to spend my heartbeats in. And so I worked for two wellness focused companies but did not have a very healthy experience. Partly my stuff. Right. And so, yeah, I think that there are times where we take a lot of this work and we can either weaponize it against ourselves or it's intentionally weaponized against us. Like from the language that is used to the way that we need people to perpetually buy into things, or the paradigm that there's something wrong or broken with us. When I was writing this book, it was really important for me that I never use the language of right or wrong. Like, it's not bad ambition and good ambition. It's not healthy or unhealthy. It's purposeful and painful. And we'll always kind of be jockeying between the two. It's just a very human rite of passage. And I feel like so much of the experience that I had in the wellness space is like, here's all the things that are wrong with you that you need to go fix. And actually, I really love human design. I didn't talk about it in the book, but. Okay, I just saw you come alive.

[Brittany Hennessy]

Yeah.

[Rachel Rogers]

Okay, great.

[Brittany Hennessy]

Human design, astrology, we can go into all.

[Rachel Rogers]

Yes, I loved human, so I came across Human design in, like, 2016, I think, and I loved it so much because it was one of the first modalities that told me all the things that were right with me, quote, unquote, versus all the things that were wrong with me. Right. I'm a manifesting generator, which is that. Okay, great. Yeah. So it's that hybrid energy. And in the past, like, I've had many careers, right. I'm pretty much like, on my fours. And so people would perceive that to be flaky. And it's like, no, we're evolutionary beings that are meant to role model a different way of being, a nonlinear way of living. And so I think that there were a lot of modalities and tools that made me feel really bad about myself. And I was so happy to have one that made me feel really good about myself. And so just to put a bow on this thought, in the book, a lot of the work is, like, coming back to you. Right. There's even practices in there called the nourishment meter. And my editor was like, hey, but I want you to be a bit more prescriptive. And I was like, no, like, this book is not meant to be like me on a pedestal. I know better than you teaching you what to do. I'm shoulder to shoulder with you because nobody knows better than you. And that's. That's what I want the takeaway to be from the book.

[Brittany Hennessy]

Exactly. And I think in a lot of ways, we look for things to be overly prescriptive. I. In my mind, I call it like the Instagram graphication. I don't even know if that's a real word of everything, where we expect everything to be a tip that can be tied up in a very tangible bow. But so much of this is, like, in our bodies, there isn't a tangible thing that can tie it up in a bow. It's like, how do you feel?

[Rachel Rogers]

Right.

[Brittany Hennessy]

And that's going to vary from day to day, hour to hour. Right.

[Rachel Rogers]

And it's okay for it to be messy, and it's okay to not have the answers, and it's okay for teachers not to have the answers. They're not supposed to know everything because we're supposed to use our own wisdom. But I'm curious. You've Spent a lot of time in the wellness space. I want to ask the question back to you.

[Amina Altai]

Yeah.

[Rachel Rogers]

What are maybe things that have been less than supportive? And what are things that have been supportive? For? Sure.

[Brittany Hennessy]

I mean, a big part of it has been my relationship to fitness because I also had a background where I was a personal trainer and fitness instructor, and having the gym environment be one that I worked in and feeling like the way my body looked was like a business card in a lot of ways, especially during the 2010s, which was very. I mean, during that time, it was very like, bikini body.

[Rachel Rogers]

Yes. Get some already. Like, a lot of that language.

[Brittany Hennessy]

So much of it. And so working in fitness during that time was really, really harmful. And for a long time, I had to fully take a step back to it and. And completely come back to fitness and fall back in love with it. And I had to learn that for me, I have to separate work and wellness. They actually can't not overlap in the sense that I still talk about wellness all the time, but it. I do so much better as a student than I do as a teacher, particularly when it comes to wellness. And so when I learned how to separate the two, my relationship with wellness became so much better. Similar to what we were just talking about. About the prescriptiveness was like, I don't actually like being the person that people come to for answers, because I'm not going to give you an answer. I'm probably going to ask you five more questions for the other person to find the answer.

[Rachel Rogers]

Yeah.

[Brittany Hennessy]

But I think when it comes to wellness, that's often not what people are looking for. They just want to be told what to do.

[Rachel Rogers]

Right.

[Brittany Hennessy]

And yeah, that was probably, like, it was really hard for me to feel well being in that environment.

[Rachel Rogers]

Yes. I really echo what you're saying. Like, after my health crisis, I learned I had celiac disease, and so I had to learn a different way of eating. And I went to nutrition school just like manifesting generators do. Right. Like, this looks fun. Yeah. And I think that there was honestly, like a year or two where I was probably like, navigating orthorexia, because it was like all these. These are. Foods are bad, these foods are good. And like, oh, my gosh, if I can't find my quinoa, my day is over. Right. Like, just. You learn that there is a right and wrong way of living. And I think that's so harmful.

[Brittany Hennessy]

Oh, yeah. Especially, I mean, I'm thinking about, you know, 10, 12 years ago when I was deep in it. It There was so much language around, like, clean eating. And it was like, this is what's clean and this is what's not. And it was just like especially being in my kind of early 20s at the time and learning adulthood and kind of how to feed myself during that in that. It was just, it was wild.

[Rachel Rogers]

It was wild. And there was also like a lot of interesting cultural crossover too, where, like, a lot of like, foods that are sort of native to my communities are like, that's not clean eating. So is it dirty? But that can't be true. Right. Sort of like throwing away a lot of these cultures and putting that in a particular box and saying that's a wrong way of eating, like, that also felt really problematic to me.

[Amina Altai]

It is problematic also because if you.

[Brittany Hennessy]

Go to a lot of these countries, they're a lot healthier than we are.

[Rachel Rogers]

Doing a lot better than we are. They're doing.

[Brittany Hennessy]

Right, exactly. Eating their native foods.

[Rachel Rogers]

Exactly.

[Brittany Hennessy]

Because it's just food. And it's not necessarily like a tool for propaganda, which kind of everything is.

[Amina Altai]

A tool for propaganda here.

[Rachel Rogers]

But yeah, exactly. It's a word.

[Brittany Hennessy]

It's a buzz. Buzzword. More propaganda. We're not falling for like that tick tock trend.

[Rachel Rogers]

Exactly.

[Amina Altai]

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[Brittany Hennessy]

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[Rachel Rogers]

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[Brittany Hennessy]

I actually would love to talk about your Eat Pray Love year because you mentioned it a couple of times. I would love to hear what that entailed for you.

[Rachel Rogers]

Yeah, so, I mean, I continued to work because I had to, and I needed, like, the health insurance, so I didn't actually, you know, travel the world. But it was, I think, the first time in my life I gave myself permission to try things that I wanted to just because they felt good to me. So, like, I literally was just like, oh, that feels warm. I want to go to meditation school. I might learn about mindfulness. Oh, that feels warm. Like, I want to learn about somatics. Okay, nutrition school's next. And it was funny with nutrition school because I then applied. You could then apply to, like, get a master's in it. And I, like, started that application process and started the classes and I was like, what am I doing? Like, I wanted to learn and this was fun, but, like, I don't want to be a nutritionist, so let's dial this back in. But it was the first time in my life I really gave myself permission to explore and explore without needing it to go somewhere. Because I'd never had that experience. I always had to, like, make something of the thing, right? Like, if it was a side hustle, it had to be monetized. If it was a talent, it had to be monetized. And so it was the first time I gave myself permission to play. And I think if I'm being honest with myself, it was also the first time I was honest about failure because I didn't, I wasn't allowed to do that before. I wasn't allowed to miss the mark. And so it was a lot of floundering and missing the mark. And in a way that was really important to do, and I didn't get all the answers in those couple of years, but I got a lot of answers for myself that were really helpful.

[Brittany Hennessy]

I think that's something that's so hard for a lot of us, particularly historically excluded people, because we feel like everything that we do represents everybody.

[Rachel Rogers]

Yes.

[Brittany Hennessy]

So we can't fail because that means, oh, if I mess up, like, another woman's not going to get this opportunity, another black person's not going to get this opportunity, then that's going to cast on all of us.

[Rachel Rogers]

Yes.

[Brittany Hennessy]

Can we talk more about maybe having a healthier relationship with failure?

[Rachel Rogers]

Yes. And I think, particularly as entrepreneurs, we need to, because entrepreneurship is a journey of trial and error. What's your. What's your profile in human design?

[Brittany Hennessy]

Five one.

[Rachel Rogers]

Five one. Okay, so you're. You're one. You're an investigator. I'm a one, three. And so, like, my profile is very much trial and error. Like, I'm the great life experimenter, and. But I never gave myself permission to experiment. It was always like, live by the book. And, you know, don't miss the mark, because if you step out of line, it takes down everybody that you represent. And so you have to be the good minority. And so that's so much pressure to carry. Like, we were talking about the first child pressure. Like, that's also so much pressure. And then we never get to be ourselves. And, like, what a waste that is. Right? Because the world just wants more of. Of our authenticity, of who we truly are. And so I really had to, bit by bit, like, learn that, hey, growth mindset's cool. Like, you know, like, you're allowed to learn something. You're allowed to miss the mark. You're allowed to try again. And in fact, that's like, when we get the best and juiciest lessons. And I think, like, I'm a coach, but literally, yes. And I've done all of these certifications, but the richest learnings have been from my trial and error have been from missing the mark. Because I. When you miss the mark, you understand why so deeply. If you give yourself that permission and then you can just teach it forward in a. In a bigger, more supportive way. But it took me so long to be okay with what I called failing publicly. Like, I had this. I was doing shadow work. And are you. Have you done shadow work?

[Brittany Hennessy]

I'm familiar, yes.

[Rachel Rogers]

Okay, so for listeners that aren't familiar. Yes, Lots of shadow. Yes, I got lots.

[Brittany Hennessy]

It's.

[Rachel Rogers]

Carl Jung coined the term shadow, and it's sort of the quote unquote dark sides of our personality. The parts of ourselves that we think aren't lovable. So we relegate them to the shadows. So I thought I wasn't allowed to be messy or to fail, but guess what? Like, in big ways and small ways, we miss the mark all day, every day. And so I was doing this shadow work and I was walking up the subway and I was thinking about, like, what I'd learned in my session on shadow work that day. And I fall up the stairs and I'm wearing a skirt. Like my skirt's over my head. The contents of my bag roll down the stairs and I was like, oh my God, this is amazing. This is me failing publicly. And I survived, like in small ways. Right. And so having those moments, I feel like, is so helpful too, where you can make light of it.

[Brittany Hennessy]

Yeah, absolutely. And I think when we are so afraid of failure to the point where we clench everything so tightly and don't let ourselves do it. To your point earlier, we're missing so many opportunities to learn because I feel like some of our best learnings come from those times when we make mistakes, breaks, have to get in, have to fix it, have to understand what happened. Yeah. Or just when we learn how to get over stuff.

[Rachel Rogers]

Right. I feel like it becomes the secret sauce in so many ways.

[Brittany Hennessy]

Yeah. I just yesterday posted a video about. I was calling it the bounce back rate. Not necessarily saying that when we have, you know, difficult things happen, that we have to recover quickly. Just our ability to recover at all is so incredibly important, I think, for everything that we do.

[Rachel Rogers]

Yeah, exactly. Recovery bouncing forward from a setback.

[Brittany Hennessy]

Yeah. The way that I had framed it because I had some people like disagreeing in the comments and that's fine.

[Amina Altai]

I don't know.

[Brittany Hennessy]

I'm not always right. Who knows? I could be wrong. Yeah. But the way I described it was like not seeing all of these things as losses, but taking the lessons and learning from it to reapply it later.

[Rachel Rogers]

I think that's exactly right. And like, sometimes we're meant to lose speed so that again, we can reshore up the foundation so we can regain speed down the line. I was actually telling somebody this recently where I've been on my book tour. So I've been speaking a lot and traveling and 2019 was that kind of year for me. I remember there was this day in June where I had been to LA for a speaking gig and then I had a day back in New York and then I was headed to St. Louis for another one. And then when the pandemic hit, I really felt like it was such a slowdown and almost like a setback for my career in lots of ways. And. But it was the most important setback because again, it was a reshoring up the foundation that then set me up for this next level of growth. And so I think we often think of it as like, oh, that's a failure, that's a negative thing, that's a ding. And actually there's probably a bigger, more supportive reason that this is happening that can actually set you up for greater success.

[Brittany Hennessy]

Yeah, I think sometimes we get so caught up in this idea that everything must be linear.

[Rachel Rogers]

Right.

[Brittany Hennessy]

Or that the only trajectory is just straight up all the time, but that's just not reality.

[Rachel Rogers]

Right, right. So in the book, I talk about how we think ambition is more for more sake all the time. More power, more money, more growth. But actually, it's like nature. It goes in cycles. Like, we have these moments where we have a seedling of desire and we want to grow and we water our environment and we do. And then the seasons change. And so then you go back underground and you nurture yourself until you're ready to take aim again. That is what I think is supportive for us versus the always stretching and like, hey, it's great to stretch, right? That's where we grow. But when you constant stretch, that's where you break.

[Brittany Hennessy]

Yeah, absolutely. Now my former fitness girl is going to come out. Another analogy that resonates well with me is like, when we strength train, we don't actually get stronger from lifting the weights. We get stronger when we rest so that our muscles can actually rebuild. Because when we're lifting heavy things, they're breaking down.

[Rachel Rogers]

Right.

[Brittany Hennessy]

That doesn't actually make us stronger. We're stronger when we rest and they rebuild.

[Rachel Rogers]

And yes, I love that fitness girly metaphor.

[Brittany Hennessy]

Like, whether you're a gardener, whether you're a fitness girl.

[Rachel Rogers]

Rest and recovery, so important.

[Brittany Hennessy]

Yeah, you need those moments. I would also love to come back to the idea of purpose, because we've kind of used purpose in Zone of Genius a few times throughout this conversation. And it's always a topic that I love talking about because it's one of those things that I think can be really hard to get your arms around. And it's something that I'm still figuring out. And like, I have a coach who I work with and we're still kind of nailing down what my zones of genius are. Why do you think it can be hard for people to kind of zero in on where they feel like they have a zone of genius or where they feel purposeful. And what advice do you have for people who may be struggling with that?

[Rachel Rogers]

Yes, purpose feels like a very huge and heavy topic. Right. It's like, oh, my God, what is my purpose for a lifetime? And so in the book, I leverage Stephen Cope's definition, which is to bring forth the best that's within you. And then I ate in any given moment, because I do think it shifts moment to moment. And can you just give yourself permission in this moment and with the resources that you have and who you are to bring forth the best right now? And it might look different to yesterday and it might look different to tomorrow, and I think that's a much more generous way to think about it. But I think purpose feels so heavy because we feel like we have to land this thing for a lifetime. It has to be this one thing. And in the book, I also talk about it. My friend Michael Ventura talks about a constellation of purpose. Right? So instead of this one brightly burning north star of, like, my purpose is. Is like, this one north star actually can be a constellation of things. Especially for us manifesting generators. It is a constellation of things. And so we put so much pressure on ourselves to find the singular thing. And I think that that's not practical for this day and age. And then when it comes to zones of genius, it's so wild to me because I will literally sit across from, like, the most legendary people of our time, like, from Olympic gold medalists and, like. And they're like, I don't have a zone of genius. And I'm like, I'm just gonna fall off my seat right now. Like, this is wild. Like, literally, somebody crowned you best in the world at that thing, but you're like, I don't have thing. It's because so many of us can't see ourselves. We literally. And what I hear more often than not is, well, can't everybody do it that way? Everybody's got that gift. Everybody does it that way. And it's like, no, actually, they don't. You think they do because it comes so effortlessly to you. But that's precisely why it's valuable. And so we need people to mirror this back to us, Whether it's a dear friend, whether it's a coach, but someone to kind of mirror back the breadcrumbs of your zones of genius.

[Brittany Hennessy]

Yeah. Why do you think it's so easy for us to miss our zones? Zones of genius? And do you think that Zones of genius are something that come to us naturally, or are they things, maybe skills, attributes that we build over time?

[Rachel Rogers]

So in doing research for the book, I traced the word genius all the way back to ancient Rome. And it is often a hero and very rarely a heroine. So there is a gender divide around it. And there was data that even came from the 92nd Street Y, and they found that, like 90 something percent of women think that genius is a male trait. And girls as young as six also believe that too. So there's a gender divide around it. And then moreover, how we're kind of sorted in schools creates more of that tension too, because we learn that high IQ is genius. But I actually don't believe that, because what the data says is that IQ tests often measure motivation more so than they do aptitude. And we have people that have all types of genius. Right. Intuition is a genius. Empathy is a genius. Deep listening is a genius. Volleyball is a genius. Right. Like physics is a genius. It can look so different, but we live in a world that categorizes and sorts it in a particular way. So then we usually discount ours, which is heartbreaking because everybody has some. And when we come together in each of our zones of genius, like, that's so beautiful. It's this quilt of different types of genius that moves the world forward.

[Brittany Hennessy]

Jacqueline. It makes me think about how sometimes it feels like some forms of genius are, I don't know if more celebrated is the right word.

[Rachel Rogers]

Yeah.

[Brittany Hennessy]

Like, some things are more, I don't know, more positively reinforced than others. And I do think, particularly for, like, soft skill zones of genius, we really need to, like, celebrate those a lot more. Because I think that over the course of several generations of that not being as celebrated or as stewarded, we're all beginning to suffer the consequences 100%.

[Rachel Rogers]

I think a lot of the time there's, like, cultural context around genius. Like, certain cultures will celebrate a particular type. And we have a tendency to. I like to rebrand soft skills as power skills because they're so powerful. Right. And the interesting thing about soft skills actually is they came out of the US Military, they were studying military leaders, and they found the ones that not just had skills, but also had the, like, the deep empathy, the ability to lead. Those were the most, quote, unquote, successful teams. And so there's nothing soft about those skills whatsoever. But I think that, you know, certain cultures will value certain things over others.

[Brittany Hennessy]

Yeah.

[Rachel Rogers]

But all of it's wonderful.

[Brittany Hennessy]

So as you work with clients, particularly clients who are maybe working through the Ambition trap. What are some of the things that are the most helpful for them as they're on their journeys, kind of healing from that painful ambition?

[Rachel Rogers]

I think oftentimes the mask and the wound piece is so important and you don't necessarily have to know the original injury. So there's those five wounds and the mask that we wear as a result. So a big mask for me was control. Like betrayal is when you feel like your caregivers didn't live up to expectations and therefore you had to kind of control things to stay safe. And then you carry that everywhere with you. And I think we attract a lot of what we are. So I have a lot of clients with a rejection wound and with a betrayal wound that wear the avoidance mask and the control mask. And so I think having that level of awareness and then being like, oh, there's control again. Oh, there's my avoidance again. And I see where my avoidance has gotten in the way of my ambition, or I see where my control has like really driven me to a painful place and like, maybe I'm burning out because of that. So I feel like the awareness around those two things is hugely important. A lot of the times there's like this race to the bottom to find that original injury of like, well, why am I like that? And sometimes that's helpful and sometimes it's not. So I'm not like bullish on being like, find the original mom. It's just the awareness of that behavior because awareness is literally 80% of it. Once you start seeing the patterns, you can choose a different way. And it's so interesting how quickly your life will look different by just making moment to moment changes. So for anybody that has struggled with ambition, I think understanding where that original pain is, like what the mask and what the wound is, and then choosing something different. Yeah, it sounds simple and it is, and it makes the biggest difference.

[Brittany Hennessy]

Yeah, that's super helpful though, because I think sometimes when we, whether we are healing an emotional journey, I mean, it's all very tied to emotion. But sometimes we can beat ourselves up for not being fully healed all the time or being like, oh, I thought I was over this already, or I thought I didn't do this anymore. But I think the way that we're programmed and conditioned, we're always going to have those moments where something pops up where it's like, oh, I'm slipping back into that.

[Rachel Rogers]

Yes.

[Brittany Hennessy]

So that awareness piece of understanding those patterns so that we can then be like, okay, this is my cue.

[Rachel Rogers]

Yeah.

[Brittany Hennessy]

To take a step back and do something different is really important instead of beating ourselves up for not being perfectly healed.

[Rachel Rogers]

Yes. I love that you brought that up. And I mentioned this a little bit earlier, but I never want people to see a framework like this and weaponize it against themselves, because we are always becoming, we're always healing. And I'm very candid that when I wrote this book, like, publishing is an ambition trap, and I was so close to the line and probably fell in more times than I can count because I share this often, but only 2% of published authors in the US are Middle Eastern. So like, and let alone Middle Eastern women. So I'm like, really in the minority. And so I was like, oh, my God, this is my chance to shoot my shot. I've got to get it right. And if you, you know, your first book doesn't go well, will you have the opportunity to work with a big publisher the second time around? So I put a lot of pressure on myself, and then, you know, that just showed up in lots of places throughout the process. And I saw my control mask coming up, and I just have to keep asking myself, like, well, how old is this part of me? What, like, what does this part of me need? And how can I nurture them so they're not trying to wrangle this process and I can show up with more integrity?

[Brittany Hennessy]

Yeah, Yeah. I appreciate you sharing that. Actually, that reminds me of a stat that I heard last week at ROI from Rachel's writing partner. There was a session about becoming an author, and I sat it on it. It was really, really informative. But she shared a stat that I think between, I want to say, like, 1953 and 2018, it was something like 95% of books published in English were written by white authors, which is bananas to think of. And it's really the importance of books like yours and, like, having more perspectives put into print. Because that was only a couple years ago. And I would only imagine now, now it's marginally better, but probably not by much. It might not be 95% anymore, but it's probably still pretty close. And so, again, just the ways that we can kind of question our value or put so much pressure on ourselves for things to perform or be a certain way when it's like, actually our voices have value as they are as they are.

[Rachel Rogers]

And I think if we can shift the orientation or shift the come from, it can be this beautiful act of community care. Like, I think about this all the time of, like, getting to do this book was a form of community care because other people that look like me and identify like I do will get a version of this and maybe some healing from it too. And so but if I, if I twist myself into a pretzel in the process, I'm not serving myself. I'm not serving anyone. But if I can do it in integrity and from that purposeful place, I think it can be a beautiful act of community care.

[Brittany Hennessy]

Yeah. And I think it's a good example that we can like reach beautiful goals and new milestones and we don't have to deplete ourselves to do it. It truly thank you so much for joining me. I loved this conversation. Can you please let our community know where they can keep in touch with you and where they can get the book?

[Rachel Rogers]

You can find the book everywhere you buy books, whether that's favorite indie bookstore or national chain. And then you can learn more about me on my website, amanaltai.com and on Instagram. Amana Altai I'm sure the spelling will be in the Show Notes.

[Brittany Hennessy]

Yes, we will have everything linked in the Show Notes. Make it easy. I was recently talking to somebody who was like, I listen when I drive and sometimes I forget. So it's helpful when y' all it. And so it's like I like to do all of the above.

[Rachel Rogers]

Yes, totally.

[Brittany Hennessy]

Thank you so much.

[Rachel Rogers]

Thank you and a joy.

[Amina Altai]

Thank you for tuning in to this week's episode of she's so Lucky. If you're ready to create your own luck, hit that subscribe button wherever you get your podcasts or on YouTube so you don't miss an episode and head to the Show Notes for resources, for.

[Brittany Hennessy]

Links and discount codes.

[Amina Altai]

And if you are really feeling lucky, we would appreciate your rating and your review.

[Brittany Hennessy]

It really helps us be able to improve the show to get great guests.

[Amina Altai]

And to understand what you want to hear more of. Thank you for tuning in and I'll see you next week.

[Brittany Hennessy]

Please note that this episode may contain.

[Amina Altai]

Paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Services.

[Brittany Hennessy]

Individuals on the show may have a.

[Amina Altai]

Direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to in this episode.