The Friendship Tax No One Talks About ft. Ru Wolle

Summary

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Podcast Summary: "The Friendship Tax No One Talks About" ft. Ru Wolle

She’s So Lucky | June 30, 2026

Episode Overview

This episode of She’s So Lucky, hosted by Les Alfred, features journalist and author Ru Wolle, whose experiences as a bridesmaid prompted her to publish “I Hope You Elope.” The conversation explores the emotional, social, and financial "taxes" placed on friendships, particularly in the context of weddings and wedding culture. Ru and Les dive into how unspoken expectations, social media, and tradition scrutinize female friendships during life milestones and why honest communication is crucial.

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Main Themes & Discussion Points

The Realities of Modern Bridesmaid Culture ([02:11]-[11:29])

• Financial & Emotional Burden
  Ru shares her personal journey, having been a bridesmaid three times, and why she decided to “retire” from that role. Costs and emotional stress were at the center of her decision:

  “If I do this one more time, I might lose a friendship over it, and it’s not worth losing a friendship over.” (Ru Wolle, [05:56])

• The Viral Conversation
  Her provocative Glamour op-ed became a touchstone for many women, revealing widespread feelings of overwhelm and isolation:

  “I truly thought I felt ostracized in the experience… But clearly it was something that was resonating with a lot of folks because it did go viral.” (Ru Wolle, [04:50])

• Unclear Expectations & Lack of Resources for Bridesmaids
  Brides have a wealth of guides, but bridesmaids are left guessing about their roles, financial obligations, and boundaries:

  “No one has really defined what being a bridesmaid is… Brides have all the resources in the world… But no one is serving the bridesmaid.” (Ru Wolle, [10:13])

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The Expanding “Wedding Industrial Complex” ([15:38]-[21:35])

• How Social Media Transformed Weddings
  Both Les and Ru map how social media and influencer culture have fueled expectations—escalating bachelorette parties, lavish proposals, and “performance culture”:

  “It’s often a business. Their bachelorette parties, everything are now sponsored products.” (Les Alfred, [19:01])
  “Seven friends do not make the same income level… everyone’s in different stages of their lives.” (Ru Wolle, [19:15])

• Root of Tradition and “Visibility”
  Ru challenges the idea that these customs are everyone’s tradition, sharing the origin of bridesmaids as a Roman-era superstition and reflecting on what’s lost and gained by placing weddings at the center of women’s visibility:

  “Weddings are one of the only moments in a woman’s life where she’s actively encouraged to take up space.” (Les Alfred, reading Ru, [23:02])

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Friendship Dynamics & the “Loyalty Test” ([21:35]-[34:35])

• Measure of Loyalty & Friendship
  Group dynamics and implicit tests of love arise:

  “It becomes a test of loyalty… a measure of how good of a friend are you, how much do you love me?” (Les Alfred, [21:35])

• Personal Stories and Cultural Commentary
  Ru describes the nuance of selection—some women end up as “filler” bridesmaids due to group or family pressure, not intimacy:

  “That’s really what it feels like with bridesmaid culture… not every woman is selecting her core besties.” (Ru Wolle, [48:37])

• Losing Friendships Over Weddings
  The pressure of major life events can result in the dissolution of friendships, often due to avoided or suppressed communication:

  “People have lost friendships over this—there needs to be research!” (Ru Wolle, [48:31])

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The Power and Challenge of Communication ([38:31]-[50:55])

• The Hair Story: Miscommunication & Resentment ([39:02]-[45:45])
  Ru recounts a moment at a close friend’s wedding where unclear communication about hairstyles led to stress and guilt:

  “What I really needed my friend to say in that moment was like, girl, your hair does not matter. You’re here, you’ve spent all this money… you look great, let’s move on.” (Ru Wolle, [41:32])

• Why Clarity Matters
  The episode highlights the importance of frank, caring conversations for both brides and bridesmaids:

  “Being nice is worthless if you’re just going to feel resentful about it in the end. You might as well state your needs from the outset.” (Minnie Driver, quoted by Ru, [47:14])

• Honesty as the Foundation for Lasting Friendship
  Ru’s advice:

  “If you’re honest with yourself, and you say, this is how I can show up, best believe a true friend will respect that.” (Ru Wolle, [50:55])

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Cultural Shifts & Alternative Ways to Celebrate Women ([52:25]-[54:08])

• Expanding the Scope of Celebration
  Les and Ru advocate for celebrating each other outside of weddings—promotions, birthdays, life achievements—to reduce the pressure on weddings as a “peak experience”:

  “Why are we not celebrating each other for the big accomplishments? …Where are we filling in the gap?” (Ru Wolle, [53:09])

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Rapid Fire: Insights and Humor ([54:16]-[57:48])

Some highlights from the “I Hope You Elope” quick questions with Ru:

• Women need to stop apologizing for:
  “Not being able to show up.” ([54:26])
• Societal expectation you secretly hate:
  “The idea that women have to wear the same dress.” ([54:37])
• Boundary that changed your life:
  “Saying no to being a bridesmaid ever again…” ([55:21])
• What do women romanticize too much?
  “The big day. I’m guilty of it.” ([56:06])
• What do women deserve more honesty about? “They deserve to be told exactly what they’re being required to… down to the cost.” ([56:23])
• Consent in expectations:
  “There is no point where anyone should feel like they have to be a bridesmaid… it’s an ask.” ([57:09])

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Notable Quotes

• On Tradition & Pressure:
  “I think there’s also a nuance to the idea of being chosen. Women really don’t get this moment in life, any other moment but their big day.” (Ru Wolle, [23:01])

• On Emotional Labor:
  “Bridesmaids are sort of expected to help support… while also feeling the trickle-down effect of all those pressures.” (Ru Wolle, [33:00])

• On Strategies for Healthy Friendships:
  “There are ways to have thoughtful conversations and still communicate your boundaries and your capacity.” (Ru Wolle, [46:50])

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Key Takeaways

• Bridesmaids are typically unprepared for the true costs—financial, emotional, and social—of participation.
• Wedding culture has intensified due to social media, leading to higher demands and expense.
• Being a bridesmaid can strain or break friendships if expectations and boundaries aren’t clearly communicated.
• Weddings are often the only time women feel “visible” and central, amplifying pressure on everyone involved.
• Open, honest conversation—with oneself and friends—is essential to preserving relationships during life milestones.
• Celebrating all kinds of achievements—not just weddings—can relieve pressure and foster sustainable friendships.

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• [02:11] The story behind Ru’s book and viral Glamour essay
• [10:13] Why bridesmaids lack support & resources
• [15:38] Social media and the evolution of wedding culture
• [21:35] Loyalty tests and how weddings re-order friendships
• [23:02] Visibility and the “one big day” for women
• [39:02] The “hair story” – miscommunication and resentment
• [46:50] How to frame hard but necessary friendship conversations
• [50:55] Ru’s core advice: honesty with oneself and friends
• [54:16] Rapid fire insights and boundary-setting
• [56:23] The importance of consent and explicit expectations

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Closing Thoughts

Les Alfred and Ru Wolle offer a candid, compassionate exploration of the “friendship tax” of major life events, exposing the unspoken costs and creating a roadmap for healthier, more honest female friendships. This episode delivers validation for those feeling overwhelmed by wedding culture, and concrete tools for setting boundaries and redefining celebration among friends.

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Transcript

[Rue Wole]

The following podcast is a Dear Media production.

[Narrator/Intro]

We all want to feel seen by the people closest to us, and this plays out in friendships all the time. But for many people, the ultimate friendship stress test tends to come out around major life events like weddings. This week, I'm joined by Rue Wole, journalist and author of I Hope youe Elope. After feeling overextended by the social and financial obligations of being a bridesmaid, Rue decided she was never going to take on the role again, which has opened the door to important conversations about the ways wedding culture can create strain in our friendships. Today, we're examining the facets of female friendships. How unspoken expectations of labor can create resentment, and what it looks like to truly celebrate our friends for the big and small moments of life and. And everything in between. Whether you're gearing up for a big day or just want to feel more seen by your friends, this episode is for you,

[Podcast Host 1]

Rue. Welcome to she's so Lucky.

[Rue Wole]

Thank you, Les. It's so exciting to be here just to be in conversation with you. I'm excited.

[Podcast Host 2]

I'm so excited to have you. I would love to start things off by hearing about a moment where you recently felt lucky.

[Rue Wole]

Ooh, I feel lucky by having probably one of the best communities in the world, and I feel like maybe you got to see a bit of it as well. At my book launch party, I felt like that moment truly could be the person that felt like she had all the luck in the world. Right. Just to be loved and for folks to show up for you in all the various ways and then to do that in such a celebration form as, well, you know. Yeah, that day, I felt like the luckiest girl in the world.

[Podcast Host 2]

So, yeah, it was really beautiful. So context for everybody listening. Watching you recently wrote a book called I Hope youe Elope. Right before the book was launched, you had this really fun party that was also kind of a fun, like, wedding vibe, but, like, kind of death to weddings vibe.

[Rue Wole]

Absolutely. Feed into it. I'm like, that's very much me. I'm like, bring in all the drama.

[Podcast Host 2]

Yes, yes. But it was so much fun and you were, like, covered and surrounded by so many people from all the different areas of your life who love you and support you. And it was really cool, which honestly

[Rue Wole]

doesn't happen too often. And it's like, when I think about it, it's funny because family, friends were like, that kind of felt like a mini wedding. It really comes down to the wedding day as, like, the one time where all your community and all your friends and loved ones come celebrate you. Right? And for me I'm like, I think the thought behind also the book launch party was very much like, it doesn't need to take a wedding for us, for people to show up for one another and celebrate in such a big grand. And I was like, let's do it at the book launch. Cause that's something to celebrate. It's like birthing a baby, as some folks say.

[Podcast Host 2]

I want to help people understand kind of how you got to this point of writing the book and your background both as a journalist, but then also as somebody who was a bridesmaid a couple of times and had some experiences. And you published a letter in Glamour.

[Rue Wole]

Absolutely. It was 2023.

[Podcast Host 1]

Uh huh.

[Rue Wole]

It was just the time where I wanted to write an op ed as from a journalist standpoint. It was like I kind of want to share something personal. Right. Didn't know what that was going to be and just knew that like organically it would come. Right. And I knew it would probably hit on like a cultural conversation because I'm doing this in a corporate environment. So it kind of has to land in a way that resonates with folks. Right. And I just remember coming out of what I continue to call like the first wave of wet like weddings that we as women experience, which is when you're in your mid late 20s, friends start getting married, the asks and the rollout, the proposals start rolling out and I experienced mine. And I'll say it again and again, I don't think I had the craziest like Bridezilla case scenario, but it did catch me at a time where I'm like, I cannot afford this. And I didn't know how to vocalize it then. And I know there were so many other elements to it cause I write about it in that letter. But the financial bit really sucker punched me. And I truly don't think I. I said no to the things where it's like, girl, you just can't afford it. But there were things that I look back at and I'm like, I really spent a lot more than I thought I was going to. And so when I had those conversations with peers and editors, they. One of our editors was like, this is your op ed, right? Write it. And in the midst of writing it, it turned into a whole package. And we ended up doing a cover around it. But for the first time I realized just that I wasn't alone in the journey. Because any woman like, whether it was at work or in the process of just Talking to other folks about it. It turned into a therapy session every time. Like, I kid you not to the point where I'm like, I don't have anything more than 30 minutes. But it felt like everyone was waiting for someone to have this conversation. So I was like, oh, wow, okay. I truly thought I felt ostracized in the experience. Or siloed is probably the better word. But clearly it was something that was resonating with a lot of folks because it did go viral, which I didn't expect at the time. But, yeah, that was sort of how

[Podcast Host 2]

that came about and the letter that you wrote. Cause also, it was like the headline and some of the language was. It was very provocative. It was like, I'm never being a bridesmaid again. Like, will not do this. I'm curious when it initially went viral and started picking up and you were getting that response, what the response was like, it sounds like there was definitely some understanding. What was the pushback like?

[Rue Wole]

The pushback was like, she's a wedding grinch, right? And I think you said it right. The headline felt very provocative, but it was also me saying what I felt at the time, which was, if I do this one more time, I might lose a friendship over it, and it's not worth losing a friendship over. Was it also, like, subtly a little cop out for me to do it publicly in a way that now I don't have to go to every single friend and say, hey, girly, I. Because that's a tough conversation, right? Like, that's the thing that every woman struggles with, was struggling with up until, you know, now that we're having this conversation. But simply saying no for a lot of folks felt like, well, friendship will be over. The minute my friend asked me to be a bridesmaid and I have to respond with a no or a But that's when people have just felt like they can't, right? And for me, I think that's what really got. I think the headline really played a role in it. And yeah, I think people probably thought I was coming for the entire wedding industrial complex, which is a very touchy point. But for me, it felt like, no, this is actually how I'm gonna move moving forward, which is, I've done it three times. I don't need to do 27 dresses of it all. And then hearing women who are like, oh, that's nothing. I've been a bridesmaid 9, 17 times. I'm like, how? Like, how does one become a bridesmaid over 10 times? Like, it's Just for me, I'm like, there's no way you have been that close to that many people in that designated season.

[Podcast Host 2]

I feel you. I've only been a bridesmaid one time, and it was. Overall, it was a positive experience. I think it was stressful because weddings are just stressful.

[Rue Wole]

Yeah, that's. That's really what it is.

[Podcast Host 2]

And of my friend who got married, I mean, she truly was like the dream bride. She was so kind and communicative and thoughtful. And even with the kindest, most communicative, thoughtful, generous person who also covered a lot of costs for a lot of

[Rue Wole]

us, I was like, oh, I'm good.

[Podcast Host 2]

I did this.

[Rue Wole]

Yes.

[Podcast Host 2]

And I don't need to do it again.

[Rue Wole]

And sometimes people have that as, like, their first experience or their second, where they're like, I had the most incredible bride, very considerate, very thoughtful. And then they'll have another ask come through or proposal, right. From a friend and be like, this will be a walk in the park. We'll jump in. And it's a completely different experience. Right. And I think part of writing the book also on one front, was saying that not everyone can say no. Like, that's not realistic. Of course. That's my personal take, and that's how I'm gonna move about my life and my journey. And, I mean, people even ask me, they're like, what if you're a sister asked you to be a bridesmaid? I'm like, me and her are locked in. She's not going to want a bridal party. I'm like, it's all good on that front. So I was never worried. There are probably best friends that will be affected in the future if and when they get married, and I can't participate in that way. But for the larger part, I was like, that's not realistic. That doesn't feel like it's serving folks, which is sort of how I move, like, as a journalist as well. I want to write pieces that serve women in a larger audience. And so I felt like the book is that. Right. It's not a say no and never be a bridesmaid again. It's very much back to our earlier conversation about having one experience and having a very different experience. It's like, no one has really defined what being a bridesmaid is. Right. So the thing that I really sort of figured out in the research of this book is that a bride is navigating being a bride 9 out of 10 times for the first time ever. Right. Same goes for the first Wave of weddings, when you have your college bestie ask you to be a bridesmaid, you're navigating for the first time. She is. And then it becomes this like dance of, oh, yeah, I have this expectation of what I think being a bridesmaid is, is probably wearing a dress, probably getting all dolled up, and then like one bachelorette happening somewhere. And then the bride has her expectations on top of all that comes with wedding stressors, right? And so it becomes this weird dance of nothing has been fully defined. And then now you're in the thick of it and you're like, oh, wait, I didn't know that me saying yes to showing up for you in this season meant I also had to pay for this or show up in this capacity, or be up late to this point and put up with family drama. And so there's so many nuances that I'm like, there's no resource. Brides have all the resource in the world. They can go to Pinterest, they can go to magazines, digital publications, and really figure out how to navigate their journey. But I was like, no one is serving the bridesmaid right. And you kind of need that if you want to come out of this with your sanity intact and your friendship intact. Because the bigger conversation is so many folks come out of being a bridesmaid and say, yeah, we're no longer friends. It's so mind blowing. Because if I was to have a wedding and pull up photos and like look down memory lane and be like, sheesh, like the five of the five women or whatever that number is, she's no longer my best friend. I'm like, that's such a heartbreaking conversation that I'm like, this is supposed to sort of help navigate that. Because if the conversations and the communication happen from the jump, things are navigated a lot better.

[Podcast Host 1]

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[Podcast Host 2]

Being a bit of an older millennial, I think about the first wave of weddings that I went to after college in the early 2010s. I feel like I've now seen the span of the weddings that I was going to in 2012 and what was required there. So different than the weddings that are happening now. And I think social media and the Internet has played a large role in that. When I think about in my earlier 20s, the few people I knew who got married earlier, it was like the bachelorette party was bar hopping in our hometown. It was kind of a one night thing. It was maybe a matching robe to get ready in and then it was like day of there was not the bridesmaid proposals. It was not an exotic trip to another country. It was not like multiple different events with all of these different things. But I think social media, particularly after the pandemic, it has added all of this extra layers and pressure.

[Rue Wole]

You made a point like it could have been a weekend at the at that time because I am an older millennial as well, where very much so. You can go to Dollar Tree, go to the 99 cent store and just like, you know, buy a bunch of things, do the sort of like tacky style decoration. And I'm saying, listen, I'm all for the premium experience, but I just feel like we have hit a point. And that's something I talk about in the book where truly the first chapter is like how did we get here right? Like how did not only did the wedding industrial complex balloon to what it is now, but how did showing up as a bridesmaid turn into what it is now, which is a lot more right than what it used to be. And I think social media has Truly cemented that. And I think, and I go through it from like, a full timeline experience of like, we keep coming back to this word tradition, right? Across weddings, across bridesmaid culture. But I'm like, one whose tradition is it? Because if I sit down and I tell you the history of how bridesmaids and the concept of being a bridesmaid came to be, I'm like, you would probably laugh at it, which is during Roman times for, like, as women would get married to make sure that no suitor kidnaps her, they would. Or like evil vengeful spirits, they would essentially have her maid and maidens all dressed in white similar to her, so that no one could tell the bride apart from the rest. Right. And so it's. That's the conversation we keep falling back. It's tradition. And it's like, girl, like, let's be real. I'm like, my Ethiopian ass. That's not my tradition. Right. And it's fine. I think there's. There is the love element of brides just wedding. That's what the root of all of it is. And I think that's where the complexity kicks in. Right? Yeah. When things are packaged, intimacy, love, friendship, it's hard to say no. It's hard to put those boundaries up. So it really does then. Now, looking at social media, looking at the Pinterest era of it all, it's our version of Keeping up with the Jones, right? Where we're looking at influencers, content creators who are experiencing weddings for themselves. And it looks a certain kind of way.

[Podcast Host 2]

It's often a business.

[Whitney Port]

It's often.

[Podcast Host 2]

It's often their bachelor at parties. Everything are now sponsored products.

[Rue Wole]

I'm like, there's a content strategy around

[Podcast Host 2]

the whole thing, which isn't a bad thing. But it's like, understand this is those people's jobs.

[Rue Wole]

Absolutely. I'm like, yes, the bridesmaid proposal looks immaculate. I mean, you're getting designer products, right? And this huge proposal box where you've got all the beauty products that all of us girlies use, Right. And it all looks so well curated. And I'm all for it. I'm like, that's great. But I think if we're talking about how the rest of the America is functioning, they're looking at that and they're trying to replicate that to some capacity. And sure, if you have the funds, great. But also the realistic part is like, seven friends do not make the same income level. Right. And are not sitting in the same economic. Economic status. Yes. I'm sure when you are a friend group that that is more likely than not. But I think people forget everybody's in different stages of their lives. And so that idea and concept of trying to replicate what people are seeing on social performance culture is so closely tied to social at this point that it really becomes, girl, are we doing this because this is genuinely what you want to do for your big day and the rollout for it, or is this something you feel like needs to be on TikTok, or are you doing this for it to be witnessed? And I think that's where the resentment part in the component picks up, where friends genuinely in the season where they're spending on something that's not solely for them, which, like, this is another point on the spend of it all. But I talk about it in the money chapter. The way I start that chapter is sort of hitting on this note of a lot of cultures that spray money at a wedding. Right. West Africans do it. And that. Like, I have been to a Nigerian wedding, and that is such a fun experience where the couple is dancing. Everyone is like, pulling out either the 20s, the ones. And you start spraying them, sticking it on them. And it's such a beautiful moment. That also shows what giving culture can look like. And I'm like, I am all for spending on the people that I love in the capacities that I can. Especially in a way where it's like, I'm showing up for you and doing it in a thoughtful manner. But when it becomes something about bridesmaid culture sort of ties obligation to it,

[Podcast Host 2]

well, it becomes a test of loyalty.

[Rue Wole]

It does also become.

[Podcast Host 2]

And that's a measure of how good of a friend are you? How much do you love me? If you don't do what I think you should do in this moment, you're jealous of me. We have an issue. Or a lot of people will say things like, you find out who your real friends are around a wedding, or you find out who people really are around certain events, usually weddings being the top of that.

[Narrator/Intro]

And it's.

[Podcast Host 2]

It just becomes such a thing that is so difficult to navigate.

[Rue Wole]

Absolutely. It was a New Yorker cartoon that I talk about in the book, where essentially a couple is giving their toast at the wedding and they. And you. It's a comedic, like, comic strip, and it says, we're here to announce who our best friends are. Right. And that's what wedding is.

[Podcast Host 1]

Yeah.

[Rue Wole]

Like, who sits at what table and who gets invited, who doesn't get invited, who has to see it on Instagram and see it over the course of the Weekend through the hashtag. Right. And. And who gets also chosen to be a bridesmaid really shows we as women, Right. Who are girls. And I think there's also a nuance of that that we can look back at to in this idea of being chosen. Right. And you hit the note in the beginning, which is women really don't get this moment in life, any other moment.

[Podcast Host 2]

Right.

[Rue Wole]

But their big day.

[Podcast Host 2]

There's actually an excerpt in the book that I highlighted because I wanted to read it on air where you said this weddings are one of the only moments in a woman's life where she's actively encouraged to take up space. Every eye on her, every camera tilted her way. For many brides, it's the first and maybe the only time she gets to be the one not just loved, but visually centered. Even the most emotionally generous bride can get swept up in that.

[Rue Wole]

Absolutely, absolutely. Because ask someone who is either in their late 30s to kind of look back at their lives and like think back to moments where they have felt completely celebrated and. Right. Sometimes it's birthdays, but birthdays doesn't bring everybody in.

[Podcast Host 1]

Right.

[Rue Wole]

In the same way that a wedding does. Family flying out. And so it really does come back to this note of pressure. Right. There's so much pressure around this big day because for a lot of women, it's the one and only day where they get to dress up in this fashion and form. They are the center of the like the lead up to it, the big day. I'm like, you hear this ongoing, like it's a conversation. It's media continues to sort of multiply it of like it's her day, it's not his. Right. We where if he's sitting out the conversation. And so I think that really does have a trickle down effect. No matter what, whatever stressor that the bride is experiencing, her bridesmaid will feel it to some capacity. And that's why there's a part in the book that I also talk about having grace on a bride because I'm like, she is fully producing an event, if she's lucky enough, has a wedding planner, you know, across the board. But most folks are doing a day of. What do they call it? Coordinators. Right.

[Podcast Host 2]

And so it's a job in and of itself.

[Rue Wole]

It's a job in of itself. And it's like if you've never produced an event.

[Podcast Host 2]

No.

[Rue Wole]

Or put together something like this on a high level and spent that much amount of a budget. Right. Which most of the time is almost a down payment on a house in today's world, that level of stress while juggling everything else, because most people are planning this while they're also juggling their nine to five.

[Podcast Host 1]

They have a job. They have.

[Podcast Host 2]

They have. And it's like, well, how much is the groom if we're talking about a heteronormative wedding? How much is the groom helping if he's not or if he's. Yet another thing to be responsible for. The bridesmaids often have to make up slack for what? For the lack of participation.

[Rue Wole]

Absolutely.

[Podcast Host 2]

Of the other person who really should be sharing that workload.

[Rue Wole]

That part. And I think that's the part where friendship dynamics also come out of it, right. If you have been the friend who's always, like, picking up after the group or planning, it's like, that's gonna get magnified even more, Right. If you are the yes girly, that's even gonna get magnified even more. And so when it's a season that's intensified, and if you thought you were being asked of a lot in your normal friendship, it will exacerbate it at this point, right? And I think that's where people come out of weddings. Losing a friendship or in some ways, experiencing a new sort of character moment with the bride and being like, wow, right? Like, this is not what I expected to experience in a time where I thought it was gonna be this. And I think that's the reality that most folks are not realizing until it's too late. And I'm like, if communications and dialogues are happening early on and you're able to say, I love you, girlie, this is how much I have in this season. And based off of everything that you want for your big day, it's not lining up. I can. I probably need to sit out the Bachelorette. Is that okay with you? And those conversations are happening early on, and she's like a friend who understands what your capacities are and you have named them, is like, girl, you're good. You can wear the dress and be at the bridal shower and be there for the big weekend. Forget the Bachelorette. You do not need to come to Jamaica.

[Podcast Host 2]

Or.

[Rue Wole]

Or someone else might say, you know what? Me and hubby have put aside some money for folks who might not be able to make it to the Bachelorette. If we're able to contribute this much, are you still able? Like, then those conversations happen. But I think I've just. At this point in.

[Whitney Port]

In.

[Rue Wole]

In the research and conversations I've had with a lot of women in writing the book, I'm Shocked by how many feel like they can't even have those conversations. Right. For whatever reason, or like, I just felt like I had to say y. And it's group dynamics, right? When you're put into that group chat and everyone's like, oh, we're ready. Any expenses, we've got you covered. Like, that type of language and that type of group dynamic puts this pressure on anybody who already feels like that they're not able to do that, they're not able to be vocal, that they're not confrontational. Imagine, right, Being that person who's like, I can barely afford it. Yes, I could probably put it on a credit card. Don't put it on a credit card.

[Podcast Host 1]

Well, then you're.

[Podcast Host 2]

You're then going into debt for some.

[Podcast Host 1]

But it also.

[Podcast Host 2]

I think it comes back to this theme that we keep coming back to around visibility and weddings often being the only time that women truly feel like they can be visible, take up space, not be seen as too much. It's then if you're then the person who says no or doesn't go along with her vision exactly as she wants it, you are then an obstacle to that. And I think that's where the loyalty test comes in, where they're like, hey, this is the one time that I can fully be out loud and kind of demand as much as I want. And if you're not going along with that, then it's like, you don't love me. You don't this, you don't that. And I think that's where the visibility and friendships piece often comes, because sometimes it can also bring out this group dynamic where it's like, who's the most loyal? Who is doing the most?

[Rue Wole]

Oh, it becomes a hierarchy.

[Whitney Port]

Absolutely.

[Podcast Host 2]

And it's so fascinating.

[Rue Wole]

It is very fascinating because, I mean, you see, you said it. There could be a moment in a friendship where you're dress shopping for a vacation together and you understand your friend style, right? All those things which you're like, girl, you know that that color is not your color. Like, you can have those types of conversations then. But there's something about wedding culture that I'm like, all those things just go right out the window. Because now you have us all lined up in the same dress, same style, same color. And you know that none of us have the same body shape, right? None of us have same style. And so I'm like, why do we conform one another to these standards when one, we've already acknowledged it's not a tradition that any of us, you know, can pinpoint back to as our tradition down to the fact that on a normal day to day life of our friendship, you know, girl, I hate chiffon, right? Like that could be a real conversation. And I think there's something about back to this visibility conversation of it's her big day and you cannot do anything to pop that bubble, right, that exists of protecting her. If anything, you're actually there to protect her and all her wants and all her needs. I'm like, we need to have a come to Jesus moment and like really just have honest conversations. Because yes, I want folks to still be able to be a bridesmaid and participate and show up for their girlies and show up for their community. But can we do it in a way that's a bit more realistic and more so just open conversation and dialogue, right? Like that's truly what it comes down to. Because the reality is, one of the things that I said even about my own personal experience is none of the brides tapped me to help find the dress, right? It's some, I mean, there's so many different details now that we don't have to get into of like how each one went about. But I thought about it and I'm like, if you also utilize your friends for their talent and for their gifts, right. The experience can look so differently. But like I said, the pressure kicks in. The minute the ball is, the train is rolling in, right? Once she's got the ring on her finger and consideracy goes out the window for some reason, she goes on Pinterest and feels like a wedding needs to look prescriptive in this capacity. And I talk about it in the final chapter of the book where I'm like, if we just really take a beat and you have two folks who love each other sitting down plotting what a celebration looks like for their union and for their love. I'm sure it looks so differently than what people have told them a wedding should look like, right? And then that would translate so differently for your community, right? Unfortunately, weddings have become this moment where it really is serving the guests over anybody. Because truly interview the couple and then interview the bridal parties. And they probably have very similar experiences of being like, I don't remember half of it. It felt like a blip.

[Podcast Host 2]

It's not even that fun for the people who it's supposed to be celebratory.

[Rue Wole]

For the amount of friends I've spoken to who've been at a wedding with me where I've been part of the bridal party and they've just been a guest. They're like, girl, the cocktail hour, that food. And I'm like, I didn't even make it to cocktail hour.

[Podcast Host 2]

It's actually the best. No, literally, there's nothing better.

[Rue Wole]

I didn't even make it to cocktail hour because we were doing photos then. Right. And it becomes this like back to back day of photos than makeup. Like, it's all just so tight. And I'm like, from an event production standpoint, someone who has helped produce events, it is a huge stressor for anybody, let alone one person.

[Podcast Host 1]

Yeah.

[Whitney Port]

And

[Rue Wole]

bridesmaids are sort of expected to help support that in so many different ways while also feeling the trickle down effect of all those pressures.

[Podcast Host 1]

For sure.

[Podcast Host 2]

Absorbing be kind of the shock absorbers in ways that groomsmen are not. Can tell you as you were talking about the two people who are deciding what they want their union to be. And then it spirals out of control. The first thing I thought of as you were saying that was a Sex and the City movie because I feel like that's just an example where it was like, when Big and Carrie decided to get married, it was supposed to be this chill, just them two. And then it turned into this whole Big thing where it became this big spectacle. And that's part of how he got cold feet. And I mean, I can't stand Mr. Big.

[Rue Wole]

No. I know to this day. Even though he's no longer realistic to it.

[Podcast Host 2]

For sure. I understand how that's overwhelming. He still did carry dirty. But he did carry dirty for like 20 years.

[Podcast Host 1]

Child.

[Podcast Host 2]

And she kept coming back from her.

[Rue Wole]

Can we flag the fact that the girls were dressed to the nine?

[Podcast Host 2]

They were. And you talked about that in the book.

[Rue Wole]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host 2]

Flattered Each of their styles and their character.

[Rue Wole]

Who was it also wore black. I'm trying to remember who it was.

[Podcast Host 2]

Charlotte.

[Rue Wole]

Was it Charlotte?

[Podcast Host 2]

Charlotte was in there.

[Rue Wole]

It was Charlotte. And then the tight Samantha was in that red. But I remember thinking they were all in black tie, as I would put it. Dresses, gowns. And no one was competing with Carrie. Because I'm like, that's unfortunately also the conversation where when you go to the dress chapter and the dress conversation, I'm like, you learn a lot about your girly. Your friend by the dress she chooses to put her friends in.

[Podcast Host 2]

Right.

[Rue Wole]

And her bridesmaids in. Because I'm like, if you love us, you would not put us in that dress. But I'm like, I hope we're really past the point and it's showing that it's not. Because I was experiencing it. But I'm like, yeah, in 2026, I would hope that we're celebrating one another. We're not thinking we're one another's competition. That old school mentality of put them in the same pastel color, same shape, same style dress so they're not pulling away from the bride conversation has been dead. Like, I really hope that, but it's not the case scenario is what I was learning.

[Podcast Host 2]

Yeah, yeah.

[Podcast Host 1]

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[Podcast Host 2]

Something that I really appreciate about the book is you also gave people talking points of like, if this is happening and this is where you're at, here's how to communicate it. Which I think is going to help so many people.

[Podcast Host 1]

Absolutely.

[Podcast Host 2]

Can we talk a bit more about your experiences with the conversations that you had in real time? I know you've also shared that you've had conversations that also, like, didn't necessarily go well. There's a story that you've shared about when you were a bridesmaid and hair and it a conversation that probably needed to be had wasn't had. And so what your experiences were that kind of helped you help other people communicate.

[Rue Wole]

This is a time to really be upfront, say it all, put it all on the table. Because looking back at one of my experiences, which hair was one of the topics and issues, I'm like, it was all miscommunication. Like that's truly what it was. Because what it came down to was her and I had navigated life, college, post grad, and life together. And she wanted all her bridesmaids to be natural. And that wasn't fully communicated and the why wasn't fully communicated. But now that I look back at it, I'm like, we had navigated the natural hair journey together freshman year of college, and it was the most freeing experience, but also atrocious because we cannot figure out like what products to use at the time.

[Podcast Host 2]

We were all going through it Together.

[Whitney Port]

Thank you.

[Rue Wole]

When YouTube and the vloggers were trying to tell you, like, what curly hair product to use and target was, I'm like, it's. That was the time period. But when she was communicating what she wanted, it was just very much like, here's what I want. And, like, no other descriptors around it or, like, explanations behind it. And that's fine. I mean, she was also juggling everything, right? And it was a miscommunication. I actually didn't even know she wanted us fully natural. I thought she just wanted it curly. I went in with my hair straightened and curled. Other bridesmaids are like, wait a second, is she getting preferential treatment? Because for them, they had all gone natural. We all have different journeys with our hairs. But it's also like, the reality of the matter is not everybody wants to be in a gown and be natural. That is our prerogative to be able to choose how we want to show up, especially when it comes to our hair as black women. So I think where it got dicey was in that moment where I was like, oh, I think I did something wrong. And I'm like, I'm also the friend that's like, damn, I wasn't trying to do you wrong, you know? And I pulled her aside and had that conversation. And other folks were around. It was just brushed off. And it was just like, no, clearly you didn't do it right, but can we just, like, get on with it? And for me, I kind of held that in, felt guilty, and washed my hair out. Remember the conversation so well, because the next day, her brides other bridesmaids were like, girl, you washed out your hair. You're better than me kind of energy. Because in my mind, I'm like, that's who I've always been, right? I either show up fully, and if I do something wrong, like, I'm one who's like, I'm gonna fix it. I'm gonna. And I think that was also the people pleasing parts of myself that I kind of needed to work on. Because in hindsight, looking back at it, I'm like, what I really needed my friend to say in that moment was like, girl, your hair does not matter. You're here, you've spent all this money, you've flown across the world to be at my wedding. You've shown up in this form and, like, not even needing to say all that, but just being like, it's not right. But, girl, it don't matter. You look great. Let's move on. And I think that Was the part where I'm like, women keep getting caught up in parts of it that is so irrelevant, right? We're here to celebrate your union. And were focused on hair. That's the conversation. People are focused on makeup. Like, people are focused on someone not looking exactly how they want them to. Right? And I think in those. In navigating that and then understanding that, it was really back to just a lack of communication because I knew who my, at the time, friend was, and I'm like, that's not how she was. Just like, ru. Regardless, I would have never asked you to wash out your hair. And I want you to always feel like yourself, right? And these conversations could have happened early on. And I think back to it, and I'm like, that's, I think, what really taught me how to be very clear, right? I think in that moment, I could have easily been like, do you want me to wash it out or is this okay? And she would have been like, it's not that serious. You don't need to wash it out. I held it in. Resentment kicked in after I washed the hair and didn't feel complete like myself the next day. And so it was moments like that where she was expecting me to say something. I was expecting her to say something. We were kind of hoping the other person filled in the gaps, and none of that was happening. Especially in a very pressurized season, right? Where you're already doing 10,000 other things and then trying to show up for your friend on their big day and they're producing something. It just becomes this moment where the way we talk to each other and communicate outside of this looks so differently than what it looks like in this season. And so a lot of miscommunication can happen. And I think that's what I'm trying to let folks know. I'm like, you gotta be very clear. Same way that I'm holding brides to the standard of being like, you want bridesmaids? Let them know from the beginning what you expect them and how you expect them to show up as. And then on the flip side, if you can't show up in that full capacity, let it be known from the beginning and then communicate that as you go on and say, hey, I thought, I can make the Bachelorette. I just can't anymore. You know, family stuff has really shifted since, like, we first started this conversation. Is there another way that I can show up for you? And I think equipping folks with those. With that language. Right. Was one of the things that I was like, this really Needs to feel like a guidebook as well. Right. Like, I want people to have the language. Because as I was telling you earlier, there were moments where, yes, I'm a people pleaser, recovering people pleaser, but I didn't realize to. To the extent that others are. And so when I was hearing stories, I'm like, you flew out to Atlanta for one day and night to pick up a dress. Like, there wasn't any way for you to. And you don't live in Atlanta, and the wedding's in a different state, and you live in a different state, but she required you to fly to a different. Like, I'm like, make that make sense. Right? And she was just like, I didn't know how to, you know. And I think that's the big part of that. Part of making sure that folks had tangible language to be able to utilize and use as, like, a starting point was very much like, this needs to feel like it's servicing folks. Because it's easy to be like, girl, say no. And another to then say, but my situation looks like this, that, and the other. And how do I say no? I'm like, that's where I was like, I really need to make it feel like a service piece, definitely.

[Podcast Host 2]

Which was super helpful. And I think also having that clear communication can disarm some of the things that we talked about where it can feel like a loyalty test, or if somebody is, like, not a good enough friend or if they don't love you enough, they're not making things work. And it can be like, I love you so much, and this is how much I have in my account to make this work. And both of those things can be true, and we can have open, honest conversations about it. But I think the more that we leave, that's vague, that's unsaid, that's left up to interpretation. That's when things can be interpreted so many different ways. And I think so much of feeling seen in friendships is just like, knowing how one another feels and being. Feeling safe to have hard conversations.

[Rue Wole]

Oh, absolutely. And I'm like, and all the hard conversations don't need to happen, right? Like, read the room, first of all.

[Podcast Host 1]

Yes.

[Rue Wole]

And I think that's. People get so caught up in being like, I don't want to ruin the day. I don't want to rain on her parade. But I'm like, being honest and upfront does not need to, like, it doesn't need to look confrontational. There are ways to, like, communicate to our loved ones.

[Podcast Host 1]

Like, we're.

[Rue Wole]

It's also going back to the basics. Right. There are ways to have thoughtful conversations and still be able to communicate your boundaries and your capacity. Right. And I think that's really where I'm like, let's reel it back. Because wedding has created this, like, bubble of like, no, you can't. This is not the moment. And so people bite their tongue and then resentment happens, and then friendship is over.

[Podcast Host 1]

Right? Yeah.

[Podcast Host 2]

There was another quote that you had in the book that I also like, earmarked because I wanted to share. This was a quote from Minnie Driver that said, oh, my gosh, being nice is worthless. If you're just going to feel resentful about it in the end, you might as well just be outspoken and state your needs from the outset. Because as much as people resent assertive women, they resent disingenuous, overly friendly, secretly furious women even more.

[Rue Wole]

Yes. And that's truly why I probably lost my friendship.

[Podcast Host 2]

Right.

[Rue Wole]

I was having sort of that last conversation with my former best friend, and she was like, I don't know how we can move past this, because you're someone who I thought can come to me and say where her boundaries are, where her capacity is, and just be upfront with me. And now I feel like, you can't. And I'm like, oof, That's a hard. That's hard to process. And I'm like, she's right. But it also is very much like, how do I explain to you? There is something about wedding culture where I just felt like anything I had learned up until that point in my life of boundaries, stating your needs, stating just went right out the window because of this season and because this extra

[Podcast Host 2]

weddings are supposed to be the most

[Podcast Host 1]

important thing to ever happen ever.

[Rue Wole]

That part, that's where I'm like, no, there's something about being a bridesmaid. And if you haven't been a bridesmaid, please.

[Podcast Host 2]

And if it wasn't that dramatic, why do people keep losing their friendships over it?

[Rue Wole]

Exactly.

[Podcast Host 2]

Because it's a very common occurrence.

[Rue Wole]

It's very common. And I'm like. That's the part where I'm like, there needs to be a research done on how many folks have lost friendships. Right. In navigating that. So I think just a note that I flagged in the book and, like, why I titled the friendship chapter bestie inflation is because I use that Oprah meme moment of like, you get a sedan, you get a sedan. And that's really what it feels like with bridesmaid culture, is not every woman is Selecting her, like, core besties. Because if that's the case scenario, it might look like two, it might look like one, it might look like five for some, right? But for some reason, the number has gone somewhere between, like, 5 to 12. And people underestimate that when you are in those large numbers. Someone's a filler, right? Either because the groomsmen had a certain amount of number, or there was all various reasons, which is like, my mom and aunt wanted me to pull my cousin, or she had me as her bridesmaid. And even though it's been five years and we haven't really talked, I feel obligated to also ask her. Or I'm part of a friendship group, and I'm close to two of them, but I feel like I also have to include the other two. And so those are not reasons to have someone as your bridesmaid. Because I'm like, what's required of being a bridesmaid comes with so much that, yes, resentment is gonna be. Is gonna come if someone is asking me to spend $1,000. And we're not even close. You know what I mean? But the group dynamic is sort of forcing that to happen. But in a normal friendship group, I'm probably not gonna go out of my way to attend all the events that. You know what I mean, that she's invited me to, because we're not that close in the group. But, like, for group shenanigans, we're showing up. And so I'm like, there's so many nuances to how people are selected and asked to be a bridesmaid that I'm like, please ensure that this is someone you're super close to. And it. And it goes both ways. And even then, of course, the stressors. Because when the stressors come, you better hope that you two are like, that the friendship can withstand it.

[Podcast Host 2]

If there's any one kind of takeaway or one kind of last piece of advice that you would want to give to somebody who's maybe navigating challenges in a friendship around a big event like this, what would it be?

[Rue Wole]

Oh, that's a good one. I think it's very much knowing that you just have to be honest with yourself, right? That's really what it comes down to. Because time and time again, like, we will show up for the people that we love. And it can look so many different ways. And it gets a bit challenging when you're being asked to show up a particular way to show your friendship and loyalty and love. But if you're honest with Yourself. And you say, oof. Like, this is how I can show up, and this is how I want to show up. Best believe that a true friend will be able to love that, respect that, and honor that. And so I'm like, it goes both ways. Same to a bride, where it's like, be honest with yourself. What do you truly want your big day and celebration to look like? Because if you really have that honest conversation with yourself, it would look so much more special. And it probably will translate even better across the big day, across the journey and the rollout leading up to it. And of course, for your community and for your bridal party. But I think people can get so distracted by what's social and what everyone else is putting out there and experiencing that. It's like, just be honest with yourself. And I think then it can sort of have a roadmap to then having these conversations with one another.

[Podcast Host 1]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host 2]

And I think the more that we also prioritize and make space for celebrating other things in one another's lives, I think the more pressure it takes off of all of it also, so that the person who is the bridesmaid several times, who maybe isn't getting married or maybe doesn't prioritize that at some point also feels celebrated too. And also for the brides, so that everything they know, that there are other ways that people can also love them and pour into them so that everything that doesn't go their way during that season doesn't feel like a personal attack or something's being taken.

[Rue Wole]

And back to the Sex and the City conversation. Like, there's a point in the book where I talk about the episode where Carrie loses her Manolos when she's visiting her friend's. I think it was like a kid's birthday. And it sort of ended up in the whole episode, revealing what happens when you have the friend who has gotten married, has kids, and you've kind of been loving on them and celebrating them in all these different ways, which is the wedding, the bridal shower, baby shower, birthdays. And you're like, I'm a single girl now, in my late 30s, don't have a significant other. But, like, haven't been celebrated and hasn't felt reciprocal. It starts adding up. Right. And I think that's also the part that I'm like, people are forgetting where it's like, why are we not celebrating each other for the big accomplishments? Right. Your girl, you know, got a promotion. Like, why are we not taking each other out for, like, a celebratory dinner? And I think we get so caught up in making those moments very, like, brief and then capitalize the big day that I'm like, where are we filling in the gap? Because I feel like that would put so much less pressure on that.

[Podcast Host 1]

Exactly.

[Podcast Host 2]

Yeah, exactly. Before we go, I would love to do a little I hope you elope rapid fire, which will be fun.

[Rue Wole]

Let's do it.

[Podcast Host 2]

So I'm just gonna ask you a question, and first thing that comes to mind.

[Rue Wole]

Okay?

[Podcast Host 1]

Okay. Okay.

[Podcast Host 2]

So, Rue, what's something women need to stop apologizing for?

[Rue Wole]

Women need to stop apologizing for not being able to show up a societal

[Podcast Host 2]

expectation that you secretly hate. Ooh.

[Rue Wole]

And this is gonna go back to bridesmaids, but the idea that women have to wear the same dress.

[Podcast Host 2]

Best bridesmaids story.

[Rue Wole]

It was my cousin's bachelorette, and we had gotten Magic Mike tickets and found out, literally, when we pulled up to the stadium that we, like, they were fake tickets, and there was no Magic Mike happening, and they had already finished their tour in Miami, and they were in Vegas that night. It I was in the car, hysterically laughing because I had hit the point where I'm like, this is what bridesmaid culture is. And my sister's like, you're rude as fuck. Rude. Why are you laughing when people just found out that, like, the night is coming out? We've been scammed, and we've been scammed.

[Podcast Host 1]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host 2]

A boundary that changed your life.

[Rue Wole]

Honestly, saying no to being a bridesmaid ever again, I think that has forever changed my life. Probably saved me money because there's a part in the finance chapter of the book where I say, it's not about it. People get so caught up and be like, it's one wedding. It's one season. And it's like, no, it's a revolving door. Because if it's caught you for the first wave. And then now you've been a bridesmaid eight times within, like, your late 20s until you're into your 30s. You have now probably not been able to, like, save up, travel the way you want it to. If there was student loans you need to pay off. It's like, people underestimate how much it's costing certain women for sure.

[Podcast Host 2]

What's something that women romanticize too much?

[Rue Wole]

The big day for the big day. I'm guilty of it. That's what I. I'm not above it. I'm guilty of it. I've romanticized it my whole life, but I'm getting better, and I think this has been Part of that journey as well.

[Podcast Host 1]

I love that.

[Podcast Host 2]

What's one thing women deserve more honesty about?

[Rue Wole]

Women deserve. Oh, my gosh. Women deserve to be told exactly what they're being required to. All the expectations that it comes for. To be a bridesmaid, your bride needs to tell you upfront, down to the cost, and if it's. If there's a range where she feels like it's going to come, like, we might go over two or three. I need to. I need to know it all. Because in today's world, especially economically, I'm like, you need to know how much it's gonna cost. Like, down to the cent. We're all budgeting, we're all trying to make it work.

[Podcast Host 2]

Ask someone.

[Podcast Host 1]

Ask.

[Podcast Host 2]

Is that okay? Not just like, by the way, it's gonna be X more.

[Rue Wole]

It's like, absolutely, yeah, it is.

[Podcast Host 2]

Get people's consent.

[Rue Wole]

There is no point where anyone should feel like they have to be a bridesmaid.

[Podcast Host 1]

Right.

[Rue Wole]

Like, it is not an. It is very much a privilege to the bride for you to show up and be able to show up in that capacity. So it is very much an ask. Right. That's what I think people really need to understand. And I think we need to give each other more grace to be able to think through it before having to say that immediate yes. Right. Or just be like, I'm down. Can we talk in details? Because you don't want to ruin the moment of it all, but it's like, can we talk details in a few. In a week or two or in a few weeks when you're ready to really understand what you'd love, how you'd love for us to show up and making sure that it aligns. Right. And that I can afford it 100%. Absolutely.

[Podcast Host 1]

Rue, thank you so much for being

[Podcast Host 2]

here and for being willing to, like, say the quiet part out loud.

[Rue Wole]

No, thank you. Thank you.

[Podcast Host 1]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host 2]

Please let the girls know where they can follow you, how they can support you, where they can get the book.

[Rue Wole]

Absolutely. So I hope you elope is the ig. So it's I hope you elope. They can also find my page as well. It's R U W O L L E. And then you can purchase the book online. Amazon. It is available at Barnes and Nobles, Walmart, Target. Best way is to just really Google I hope you elope. And there's a link on Simon and Schuster to really be able to see all the retailers that I provided.

[Podcast Host 2]

Perfect. And we'll link it in the description

[Rue Wole]

to make it amazing.

[Podcast Host 1]

Super easy for people.

[Whitney Port]

Thank you.

[Podcast Host 2]

Thank you for being here.

[Rue Wole]

This is such a great combo. I'm so excited.

[Podcast Host 2]

Thank you so much for tuning into week's episode of she's so Lucky.

[Podcast Host 1]

And that concludes our visibility series.

[Podcast Host 2]

So if you enjoyed this episode, make

[Podcast Host 1]

sure you leave a comment.

[Podcast Host 2]

Make sure you're subscribed on YouTube, on Spotify, on Apple. I heard that if you're subscribed to the show, something lucky happens, so you'll want to test that theory. Make sure you follow Rue and get I hope you elope. I'll link it in the description below.

[Podcast Host 1]

Thank you for tuning in.

[Podcast Host 2]

I'll see you next week. Thank you for tuning in to this

[Podcast Host 1]

week's episode of she's so Lucky. If you're ready to create your own

[Podcast Host 2]

luck, hit that subscribe button wherever you

[Podcast Host 1]

get your podcasts or on YouTube so you don't miss an episode and head to the show. Notes for resources, links and discount codes. And if you are really feeling lucky, we would appreciate your rating and your review.

[Podcast Host 2]

It really helps us be able to

[Podcast Host 1]

improve the show to get great guests and to understand what you want to hear more of. Thank you for tuning in and I'll

[Podcast Host 2]

see you next week.

[Whitney Port]

Hey guys, I'm Whitney Port, and this is With Wit. A lot of you may know me from reality tv, and the reality is a lot's happened since the Hills With Wit is dedicated to having real, raw, and occasionally ridiculous conversations with the people who have had a profound impact on me. Because on With Wit, very little is off limits. Subscribe so you don't miss any of the amazing conversations to come. New episodes of With Wit are available every Tuesday on all platforms.

[Podcast Host 2]

Please note that this episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to in this episode.