The Secret Struggles of Boys and Men

Summary

Podcast Summary: Sibling Revelry with Kate Hudson and Oliver Hudson

Episode: The Secret Struggles of Boys and Men
Date: December 10, 2025
Host: Oliver Hudson (Kate Hudson present but mostly Oliver)
Guest: Richard Reeves, author of Of Boys and Men; founder, American Institute for Boys and Men (AIBM)

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Episode Overview

This episode of Sibling Revelry delves into the unique and under-discussed struggles facing boys and men today, featuring Richard Reeves, whose research and advocacy spotlight the issues of modern masculinity, shifting family roles, and the ripple effects of societal change on men’s mental health and purpose. Drawing from personal experiences as fathers and sons, as well as social trends and research, Oliver and Richard have a candid, empathetic, and sometimes humorous discussion about how boys and men are navigating a rapidly changing world.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origin of the Conversation: Why Men and Boys?

• (03:25) Oliver introduces Richard as a guest whose book and message resonated with him as a father of two boys, particularly in the wake of the #MeToo movement and shifting conversations around masculinity.
• (04:21) Oliver shares his personal investment as a father and his concerns about how his boys are growing up in a culture that often problematizes masculinity.

2. The Importance of a Father’s Love and Role Models

• (06:05) Richard describes his own upbringing in the UK, with an older brother and younger sister, emphasizing the “extraordinary blessing” of being certain of his father's love.
  • Quote: “At the core of you, to know, have an absolute certainty of your father's love...I hope my three sons feel, more than anything else.” — Richard Reeves [06:20]
• (07:09) Oliver discusses family divorce, his relationships with his biological and stepfather, and asks if the source of fatherly love (biological vs. step) matters.
• (09:17) Richard says what matters most is that one “feels it from someone... there’s a reason why we use the term ‘father figure’.” He emphasizes the need for loving, caring male role models, not strictly biological fathers.

3. Masculinity’s “Negative Connotation” and Societal Narratives

• (14:29) The hosts explore how masculinity has become almost synonymous with "toxic masculinity" in the cultural narrative.
  • Quote: “The sad thing is it feels like the word ‘masculinity’ has a negative connotation now. Even if it’s not in front of it, ‘toxic’ just sort of… appears in front of it.” — Oliver Hudson [14:29]
  • Richard notes research showing people simply have “negative views about masculinity, period.”
  • Quote: “There’s good survey evidence now that people just have negative views about masculinity, period. And then you wonder why so many of our boys and young men are feeling somewhat lost.” — Richard Reeves [15:08]

4. Mislabeling Teenage Male Behavior

• (21:20) Richard underscores that behaviors often flagged as “toxic masculinity” among teen boys may simply be developmental (e.g., making lists of crushes).
  • “We’re mistaking toxic masculinity for teenage masculinity. When you’re a teenage boy or girl, you might make lists like that... but then you grow up.” — Richard Reeves [22:12]

5. Unseen Struggles: Data & Trends

• (21:20; 29:26) Richard gives examples of ignored crises:
  • Male college enrollment plummeting in the pandemic—seven times the rate of females, largely unreported.
  • Young male suicide rates climbing significantly (four times higher, with a third increase among under-30s from 2010–2023).
  • Quote: “There was a sevenfold difference in college enrollment… a huge increase in suicide rates among young men.” — Richard Reeves [30:06]
  • Richard asserts: “If it had been the other way around, there would have been lots of coverage… because there are lots of people whose job it is to draw attention to it (for women and girls).”

6. Feeling Needed: The Core of Men’s Wellbeing

• (33:17) Richard identifies the sense of being “needed” as foundational for men’s mental health.
  • Quote: “The thing that everyone needs is to know that they're needed... the core of mental health." — Richard Reeves [33:32]
  • Research shows words like “worthless” and “useless” dominate men’s self-conceptions before suicide.

7. Masculinity and Vulnerability: Changing Definitions

• (35:57) Oliver and Richard discuss how men can—and should—find purpose not just through work or traditional provider roles, but also through vulnerability, wisdom, emotional support, and presence.
  • Quote: “Vulnerability now is seen as more of a superpower… we can be needed for emotional things now.” — Oliver Hudson [35:57]
• (36:49) Richard explains that in most cultures, maturity for men has been about becoming generative—producing more than one needs; this role is becoming less obvious in contemporary society, requiring men to find new ways to provide and contribute.

8. Role of Mentors and "The Village"

• (53:49) Both share that sometimes crucial lessons come from extended family, mentors, teachers, coaches, and that it’s important for dads to allow others in.
  • Quote: “Sometimes it takes more than one man in one generation, sometimes it takes two generations [of support].” — Richard Reeves [55:06]

9. Parenting: Modeling vs. Telling

• (47:59) “Kids believe their eyes, not their ears.” Both discuss that children internalize observed behaviors, not lectures.
  • Oliver gives the example of his own children mimicking his behavior without being aware of it.

10. Women’s Reactions & Generational Divide

• (60:09) Richard notes that “boy moms” and younger women are receptive to his work, but women who broke glass ceilings are more skeptical—afraid hard-won progress for women may be threatened by refocusing on male issues.
  • Quote: “For women who’ve had to leave piles of broken glass behind them to break ceilings, to suddenly say to them 'now boys and men'...that’s hard.” — Richard Reeves [60:20]
• Both agree: it's not a zero-sum game; both genders benefit from each other’s wellbeing.

11. Engaging Boys & Young Men: Agency and Instinct

• (64:13) Richard urges dads to trust paternal instincts—risk-taking, play, and creative tension with maternal instincts benefit families.
• (66:10) "Lean into those [paternal] instincts… A bit of dad energy is a good thing.”
• Richard shares a moving listener story: a mother who initially judged her son for watching Richard’s video but then, after watching with him, had their “best conversation ever” about his struggles.

12. Media, Andrew Tate, the Online Landscape

• (68:18) Richard addresses the allure of figures like Andrew Tate; when society fails to seriously address male issues, boys seek answers from controversial sources.
  • Quote: “The demand, not the supply, is the real story with Andrew Tate. It’s our fault [if boys are turning to him]... not the boy’s fault.” — Richard Reeves [69:22]

13. Actionable Wisdom: How to Help Boys and Men

• Personal actions: Text or call a boy or young man you know, reach out, be present, let them know they’re seen and cared for.

  • Quote: “Every guy listening to this knows a boy or a young man in their lives who they should text right now… and say, ‘how are you doing?’… This is not just about policy.” — Richard Reeves [70:55]

• Validation: Masculinity is not inherently negative; toxic masculinity gets attention, but healthy masculinity must be reclaimed and championed.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• "I want my three boys to know, have the same certainty, so they don’t have to ask themselves if dad loves me.” — Richard Reeves [06:20]
• “We’re mistaking toxic masculinity for teenage masculinity.” — Richard Reeves [22:12]
• “My goal was to make them not toxic? Imagine that: ‘here’s an inspiring vision for you, boys—imagine a world where you’re not poisonous.’” — Richard Reeves [15:08]
• “The thing that everyone needs is to know that they're needed… I think the core of mental health.” — Richard Reeves [33:32]
• “Vulnerability now is more of a superpower than ... looked at as weak.” — Oliver Hudson [35:57]
• “A bit of dad energy is a good thing.” — Richard Reeves [66:10]
• “If people like me, as boring as I am… can’t talk about boys and men, who’s going to?” — Richard Reeves [28:46]
• “Masculinity—let’s not put toxic in front of it… It’s been bastardized.” — Oliver Hudson [73:13]
• “We have to make our boys and men in our own lives, in our own communities, know that we see them, that we love them, and we have their backs.” — Richard Reeves [71:06]
• “Kids believe their eyes, not their ears... This has to be show, not tell.” — Richard Reeves [47:59]

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Important Timestamps

• 03:25–04:18: Oliver introduces Richard Reeves and reasons for the conversation
• 06:05–07:09: Richard and Oliver’s personal stories of fatherhood and family structure
• 12:40–16:41: Historical and social context of changing gender roles and “toxic masculinity”
• 21:06–24:32: Data points on male educational and mental health struggles
• 33:17–35:57: The idea that feeling "needed" is central to men's wellbeing
• 47:59–50:08: Parenting by example vs. instruction
• 60:05–63:44: Women’s varied responses to male-focused initiatives
• 66:10–68:39: Trusting paternal instincts; the risk of ignoring boys’ issues
• 68:39–69:36: Discussing online influencers and society’s failure to engage boys
• 70:44–71:34: Richard’s call to action: personally reach out to boys and young men

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Takeaways and Closing Tone

The conversation is heartfelt, vulnerable, and urgent, yet practical and hopeful. Both Oliver and Richard urge parents and society to rethink how we support boys and men—balancing the gains for women with renewed attention to the unique challenges faced by men today. Masculinity is reclaimed as a positive force, and the critical need for presence, guidance, and honest dialogue is emphasized. The message: “make a call, have the conversation, show up — boys and men need to feel wanted, loved, and included, now more than ever.”

To dive deeper, visit: aibm.org

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Transcript

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[Oliver Hudson]

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[Kate Hudson]

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[Richard Reeves]

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Hi.

[Oliver Hudson]

I'M kate hudson and my name is.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Oliver hudson we wanted to do something.

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[Oliver Hudson]

Like to be siblings.

We are a sibling rivalry no no sibling rivalry don't.

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Sibling revelry.

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That'S.

[Oliver Hudson]

Oliver hudson here we already have our guests waiting in the waiting room so i don't want to be too long winded here but i'm not going to talk about my life because i'm going to talk about my life with richard reeves richard reeves is our guest i saw him i think it was on cnn i'm not sure he wrote a book it's called of boys and men why the modern male is struggling why it matters and what to do about it he hits upon all of these really amazing subject matter he talks about toxic masculinity he seems to be sort of spouting the things off that i believe and and that i talk about with my friends about boys and men and i have two boys of my own and he founded the american institute for boys and men the aibm and i just want to get into it with him i want to talk all about this because i'm very very fascinated and i'm grateful that he's agreed.

[Kate Hudson]

To come on so bring them in.

[Oliver Hudson]

Man let's let's chat.

How you doing good how are you i'm great thank you for indulging me this is exciting i i saw you i can't remember where it was whether it was on cnn or you were talking just you know about boys and men and toxic masculinity and the importance of it all and i have two boys myself eighteen and fifteen and everything that you were saying was res with me and you know i was like man can i can i talk to richard i wonder if he'll talk to me and so i'm very grateful that you took the time to come and and have a.

[Richard Reeves]

Chat with me yeah likewise very happy.

[Oliver Hudson]

To do this i mean first of all just we'll get to why i i am excited to have this conversation because it's something that i've been thinking about especially since sort of the metoo movement having boys who have grown up in sort of that environment where yes you know it was it was great that the pendulum did but as with everything it seems like that pendulum swings very very far and watching my boys grow up in that world and them trying to understand what it's like to be a boy and have these sort of feelings of just masculinity of puberty of just advancing and how they had to sort of navigate this world was really interesting to me and i would ask them questions about it but they're kids and they're like i don't know you know they just give me that kind of an answer but going back though just about your life where did you grow up and and did you have siblings and what was sort of that home life like for you yeah.

[Richard Reeves]

Yeah i did so i i grew up in peterborough just north of london and.

You know great parents in fact an older brother a younger sister actually i was asked by theo vaughan when i was in his podcast about my relationship with my dad and i just said without thinking about it well i've never for a moment doubted my father's love for me and he said i wonder what that feels like because he hasn't had that experience and i came away from that exchange with him thinking three things one what an extraordinary blessing that is and i kind of knew it but also just felt it in a new way just what it means at the core of you to know have an absolute certainty of your father's love secondly i saw the pain in him having not had it and the third thing i thought was my god i hope my three sons feel well more than anything else right just like if i passed anything on i just like i want my three boys to know have the same certainty so i don't even have to ask themselves the question right does dad love me right that's that would be that's what i.

[Oliver Hudson]

Want that's yes of course and and you know i've come from a divorced family you know my sister and i we have some halves now but you know when i was five divorced then my stepdad came into my life.

And i guess of course there was questions of whether my dad had that sort of unconditional love for me as i've gotten older i've gotten i've had you know gained a better relationship with him and i know his struggles i know what he went through you know passing on these patterns you know from his childhood because his father left him when he was five years old he didn't have any of the resources to learn to cope with what that meant for him dealing with his feelings so essentially he was just recreating and mimicking these patterns and i was sort of the victim of it at the same time i at sixteen was adamant about not repeating that and wanting to be the greatest dad ever.

But it's weird because i do believe that my dad my real dad does have that love for me even though he hasn't shown it even though we have no real connection as far as a relationship goes we text and we talk now and again but i wonder why i wonder if that's delusional do you feel it you.

[Richard Reeves]

Must think you must feel it i.

[Oliver Hudson]

Do because i understand and i have compassion for what he went through and even within the texts and sort of his bit of remorse it feels like it's there it's just hard for him to sort of truly express.

You know whereas my stepdad has created that for me has given me that love from a male you know from a father which is what i consider him but i guess i wonder the question is does it matter where it comes from if it's a bio if it's biological love or if it's stepfather love yeah.

[Richard Reeves]

I mean i think that the answer is probably it's easiest and most ideal if it comes from your biological father right that's just that's because he's probably the one who's most likely to be there and be around but the evidence that i've looked at suggests that what really matters is that you feel it from someone and that you can i mean there's a reason why we use the term father figure quite frequently how often have you heard anyone say mother figure she was a real mother figure to me that's not a very commonly used phrase but people say he was a father figure to me and what i think that means is that to some extent like it's that that sense of social fathering whatever it can be called can be done by other men but i think it has to be done and it has to be done by men i think sometimes feel like we get trapped between this world where it's like it has to be a biological father it can only be a biological father in a nuclear family and woe beside anybody that doesn't do it that way right and the people who kind of say we don't need dads anymore you know we got it from here thanks for the last ten thousand years guys we got it from here and actually this kind of benches all fathers and says there isn't anything intrinsically valuable about what men bring to the parenting exercise and that's just flat wrong and very disempowering and so finding that middle ground which is saying yeah men matter and families come in different shapes and sizes is i think the truth and i think the evidence bears that out like dads matter but dads dads can be stepdads dads can also be like also get mentors we've written this piece from one of our board members who kind of talked about his scout leader his principal and his pastor in his case being the three black men who kind of showed him what it meant to be a man because his own dad wasn't around so like it doesn't even have to be one person either it can be different people in your life filling different roles but it does have to be adults who care for you and love you and it's a you know the phrase it takes a village to raise a child i think that's true but the thing i would add is and some of the villages have to be men why do.

[Oliver Hudson]

You think men for the most part fathers father figures have you know sort of been looked at as not a throwaway but just not as important i.

[Richard Reeves]

Think because we have treated fathering itself and that male parenting role as secondary to the female mothering role and that can lead to either a super progressive view which means okay so we don't need dads at all thank you as i said we've got it from here or the kind of super reactionary one which is like absolutely dads are completely different i mean you have to have them in traditional nuclear families where dad's the head of the household and mum knows her place and all of that and so now of course the rest of us are just trying to make it work in this difficult new world in between those two extremes yeah i.

[Oliver Hudson]

Mean did you like when you got interested in the subject matter which i want to get into but did you go deep did you look back i mean was there historical elements to all this primal elements to it you know because the gender roles i guess have evolved and i are always evolving we're always evolving you know so it it probably looked a lot different one hundred and fifty years ago than it does today so did you take all of that into account and to to sort of come up with.

Your beliefs and what you think about right now yeah.

[Richard Reeves]

And again the trick here is to acknowledge that there are some things that are to use your word trimal and that some of those will be different on average between men and women and to allow those to somehow be determined determinative right to say what to be prescriptive right and because people are so afraid that if you acknowledge any differences that's primal level between say men and women or mothers and fathers you're somehow going to use that as a cudgel to beat women back down again right and say yes you see and i understand that fear and it's a legitimate fear given the long arc of human history but the trouble is that fear leads people to kind of just not acknowledge those differences and that makes you sound honestly just crazy yeah i'm very taken by this book boy mom by ruth whitman and you know i like it because she criticizes me in the book but i still love but i love her book and she's like a she's like a good feminist who has boys and then is led to the conclusion that there are actually some differences that are not just socialized right and i think that's just true and when it comes to sort of fathering i think there is you know there's there's just a different role that we bring of course most of what we do is the same but there are some differences like i think dads do bring something a little bit different to the parenting enterprise and so do moms and we can talk about kind of what those are but i think the kind of point is just to say that has to be possible without that being read as a reactionary move right it's like where is he going with this is he going in a reactionary or traditional direction i think that's the trap that too many people have ended up in which is that we somehow feel that we can't honor the different roles that men and fathers play without that somehow signaling that we want to retreat on women that's just not true yeah.

[Oliver Hudson]

No i know i know i i would always say you know when i read a little bit about how you you know just the toxic masculinity and before i even read anything or knew anything about you i would always say you know the sad thing is it feels like the word masculine masculinity has a negative connotation now just generally you know because that toxic just you know even if it's not in front of it it seems to just sort of you know appear in front of it.

[Richard Reeves]

Right it's implied which is bullshit you.

[Oliver Hudson]

Know it frustrates me sometimes masculinity is is amazing it's great it's it's a it's a great thing to have you.

[Richard Reeves]

Know but saying why it's great is really hard and i actually had this experience with a friend recently who told me that her teenage daughter was at home with her around the dinner table and this this mom who i know she just used the word masculinity in some context right in relation to something else and her daughter said do you mean toxic masculinity and the moms and the mom said no no i just mean masculinity and the and the girl what do you mean masculinity you mean toxic masculinity and then she became clear that this sixteen year old had never heard the word masculinity without the term toxic attached to it which is fair enough because that's all we've heard for the last ten years and so i don't blame her but but it actually has led to a place now where you're right you don't even need the modifier anymore you yeah you actually there's good survey evidence now that people just have negative views about masculinity period and then you wonder why so many of our boys and young men are feeling somewhat lost and somewhat unsure of their place in the world because we've created a negative frame a deficit based frame i mean i always just think like i've raised three boys and the idea that my goal was to make them not toxic can you imagine that it's like here's an inspiring vision for you boys imagine a world where you're not poisonous i mean that's that's that's what meanwhile we're saying to the girls you go girl girls on the run you know girls girls are magic the future's female you know etcetera so we've got this massively apparent message and they were saying to the boys don't be toxic yeah really yeah that's the best we.

[Oliver Hudson]

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[Kate Hudson]

Bahama dot com october is one of my favorite times to travel with my family you know it's not too hot it's not too cold and the crowds are lighter so this year we've been talking about heading to switzerland because i know the kids would love hiking in the alps riding those mountain trains and of course trying every kind of chocolate they can find when we do trips like this i love need to stay in an airbnb you get that local vibe it feels like you actually live there for a little while which makes the memories that much richer so if you're traveling this fall it's also a perfect time to think about hosting your own home on airbnb and the best part you don't have to do it all by yourself with airbnb's co host network you can hire a local co host to manage everything from your listing guest communications and even making sure the place looks amazing find a co host at airbnb dot com host twentieth century.

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[Richard Reeves]

Video starting january eighth.

[Oliver Hudson]

How did you come to this how did you get involved with this because this was you know this wasn't your main focus from the beginning of of time when you started a career and you know how did you come to this is it after raising your kids it's partly that.

[Richard Reeves]

So what was happening was that in my day job as a think tank scholar i was working on most issues of like education employment inequality basically and i kept seeing these data points showing a lot of men were doing really badly like and i i kept seeing these data points what were some of.

[Oliver Hudson]

Those data points by the way like how would those play out i'll give.

[Richard Reeves]

You one so when when the pandemic first hit in the us the the college enrollment rate for men dropped seven times more than for women seven times more wow and and i noticed that in in the table from the government kind of release and then went around i was at the brookings institution this think tank and showing it to all my colleagues who work on education saying did you know this and they're like no none of them knew about it and it's because it was buried in like table two but i was like isn't that kind of a story like actually didn't really go down for women but it cratered for men isn't that a story why is no one covering this why is no one writing about this and it became clear that it was no one saw it as their job to draw attention to it including the people in the department for education but there were no think tanks there were no scholars there were no journalists whose job it was to look at that data and say wow massive drop in male college enrollment now if it had been the other way around there would have been lots of coverage right it would have been it would have been wall to wall and that's because there are lots of people whose job it was to draw attention to it so i'll scratch my head and say well that's because no one's job no one feels to be their job and in fact anybody who does draw attention to it runs the risk of being immediately dismissed as a reactionary and then i'd go home and my boys are talking about the fact that their high school had just been on national news for being a cradle of toxic masculinity like wait what happened and the story was that a boy had made a list of girls that they fancied and part of my lesson about that is like we're mistaking toxic masculinity for teenage masculinity right and so like when you're a teenage girl boy or girl you you might make lists like that right and it might be you know appropriately or inappropriately shared or whatever but but then you grow up and so like i don't think i should be making lists of that in my at the brookings institution right and i think that and i think i and i think i would quite rightly be called to account if i did right but but that's funny but i'm but i'm not fifteen yeah right and so that's the point is that like and it's just the the overreaction to those things has actually i think ended up really creating this strong counter reaction among a lot of people especially among a lot of boys and young men who look they get it they they they want to be good people they they are not misogynists they're not coming back to a world where they had this entitlement they they just don't want to be told that they're the problem every day and they're kind of they're kind of over it and i do think that people are kind of realizing that there's a balance to be struck here between correctly holding people to account and basically kind of tarring you know all teenage boys with the brush of toxic masculinity no.

[Oliver Hudson]

I know it's interesting it's almost like we've forgotten what humanity is like we've just forgotten biology just straight biology we've.

[Richard Reeves]

Forgotten what it's like to be a teenage boy i mean like those of us who were teenage boys can kind of remember sort of what it was like you know when that when the floodgates of testosterone come kind of rushing through you you and i and it's super interesting i find i find it very interesting that some of the people who like are most progressive on this issue actually are denying the witness of many trans men who've had like who've had testosterone shots and kind of so on who then talk about how that changes their psychology including including with relation to things like this and so it's like it's very interesting to me that like that well on the one hand we we don't allow for that difference in biology in sort of boys and girls in you know in adolescence but then we demand we demand very strongly that we pay attention to it when it comes to the trans issues which by the way which by the way i support and so you've gotta you can't have it both ways either biology.

[Oliver Hudson]

Matters or it doesn't do you think do you think because of sort of the landscape that we live in and the culture that we're sort of existing through right now that they're people are trying to find a balance or trying to figure out what the what the right level is and it's just sort of a you know it's a learning experience that eventually will even out i.

[Richard Reeves]

Think so i mean i'm optimistic i think that there's because young people are figuring it out and what i see among young men in particular is like they remain as committed as ever to gender equality right they want their sisters and their female friends to have equal opportunity they do yes there's no change in that right but they also like have their own issues and their own challenges and they they don't want to be pathologized they don't want to be told that they're the problem and they're figuring it out they're finding ways through this it's messy i actually think it's middle aged adults imposing their own their own ideological views from left and right that's causing the problem i think most people are just in good faith trying to figure it out so for example there's recent evidence that kind of fathers are doing more you know more looking after kids right every year it just goes up and that went up among republican families just as much as democrat families there's no division so quietly men and women are just figuring this out in their actual family lives and every family is going to be different but like we're just doing it and meanwhile you've got the culture warriors of like left and right like urging us to the barricades and persuading young women that their problem is young men and persuading young men that their problem is young women when in fact they both face similar problems which is how to buy a house get a job you know find someone to raise a family with make a living raise kids and be happy right that's actually what people want.

[Oliver Hudson]

Yeah yeah i mean so when you had this incident with your son was that sort of the impetus for you to say you know what let me look deeper into this let me actually make this a part of my life my research my next book no i.

[Richard Reeves]

Mean i'd already i was already on the path towards that but it did it did but it did help me with my it did what it did do was.

Hardened my resolve to write about this issue of toxic masculinity and how the progressive left has made a series of errors on this issue over the last ten years i then have equal criticism for those on the right of course but like i was just like because here's what i felt was like privately most people are just like are you kidding me with this really but publicly no one was willing to say that and so what i came to realize was that there are a lot of people worried about their sons thinking that some of this stuff was actually damaging to their sons that we weren't telling a good story and they were all thinking this privately and talking about it but no one was really wanting in a positive way and so that actually made me so the honest version of this story is that as i became determined to write about this every single colleague lined up to tell me not to and every single publisher turned me down is it because of.

[Oliver Hudson]

The potential backlash i mean you're literally you're literally proving a theory right there without even writing a word it's like they don't want to touch it because.

[Richard Reeves]

Yeah that was that particular moment so it's twenty twenty one it's like a moment of great sensitivity etcetera but i also kind of thought i thought look if people like me as boring as i am like i have charts i have research studies i'm pretty even handed here i'm very interested in increasing the share of technical high schools and improving mental health services and that kind of stuff like boring solutions focused stuff like if i can't talk about boys and men who's going to and then you can't complain if other people who aren't like that are talking about it and actually one of the sound bites from my new think tank so i create a new think tank the american institute for boys and men yeah i wanted.

[Oliver Hudson]

To talk about that very cool one.

[Richard Reeves]

Of our internal mottos is keep it boring and my and my son overheard me saying that one day and he said well you're the man for that job dad.

I said that's my phrase i'm trying to keep this boring i'm trying to make this boring i actually want there to be just solutions rather than culture war stuff yeah and when.

[Oliver Hudson]

You created this think tank you know how did that come about and was it a difficult thing to start where people a little bit hesitant to become a part of it because of you know what what you were talking about.

[Richard Reeves]

A little bit i mean by then i'd broken some of the ground with the book and so i think the tide was moving a little bit and and honestly it's just think the stuff i did like in the book and you're very kind about it but i think all i did was just sort of state facts you know all i did was sort of say to people you know that thing you're seeing and feeling about how boys and men are doing you're right and you're not alone and here's the data to prove it right and so all it did was really create mission space to say oh and i think the relief that people had which is like oh thank god we can actually you mean we can talk about this i didn't know we could talk about this but this this risk boring brookings guy talking about it so it must be safe to talk about it now and so in a way like i kind of diffused it a little bit i think precisely through that exercise but yeah even then it was a bit difficult to persuade people initially not so much actually got funding but to come and work for me partly because it's a new organization and it's a bit of uncertainty but also yeah there's still this sort of men's rightsy feel to it even now when you say i work the american institute for boys and men people they go are you the ones that hate women i go no we're not the ones that hate women but the truth is this is back to where we were a minute ago oliver is that like unless someone is waking up every day doing the research looking at the data like come back to the example i had before and i'll give you one other example like there was a sevenfold difference in college enrollment but also we saw a huge increase in suicide rates among young men so the suicide rate is four times higher among men and boys of all ages and women but between twenty ten and twenty twenty three among young men aged under thirty that rate has risen by a third and again the cdc put that data out and nobody covered it nobody analyzed it no one did press releases on it no one no one was like it was no one's job to say whoa did you see that the male suicide rate went up because there was no american institute for boys and men right and so unless it's someone's job to be noticing this stuff and drawing attention to it then we can hardly be surprised if people don't know about it and so i just drew inspiration from the many women's organizations who do a really good job of drawing attention to the issues facing women and girls including during the pandemic by the way and just said okay that's great i love that work but if we don't have similar institutions doing the same for boys and men then we're always going to get an asymmetry in our awareness of what's going on and that asymmetry creates a lack of awareness but when the problems are real in real people's lives but they're not being talked about that creates a dangerous vacuum and so the idea of the institute is to just.

[Oliver Hudson]

Fill that vacuum it's amazing and then what are we looking for what are some of these sort of feelings that they're having where they're maybe don't feel worthy or they have lack of self love and then the age group i'm curious about as well you know when are we most susceptible and how long does that continue i mean can you be seventy five years old and still feel less than yeah yeah and in.

[Richard Reeves]

Fact just to stay on the suicide statistic for a minute like the the gap in suicide rates among the over eighty five is the biggest of all i've heard twelve fold.

I think that the connective tissue here is that sense of being needed knowing that you're wanted and having a role to play and so i think the thing that everyone needs is to know that they're needed i think we all need to be needed right we know that like i'm sure like for you to know that your sons need you that your wife needs you that your colleagues need you that your community needs you that the you know civic group church group whatever needs you to show up on saturday to do that thing right actually that sense of being needed i think is the core of mental health and it's why when you look at and fiona shand the researcher looked at what are the words that men use to describe themselves before they take their own lives and the two most commonly used words were worthless and useless and so i think what happens is if we're not careful we send a message to men and especially young men that we're not sure we need you like we needed your dad to be the breadwinner right we needed your granddad to be the to be the industrial worker whatever but now it's a new world right forty percent of the breadwinners are women and we've moved away from industrial economy thankfully there's pure wars to fight now so i'm not sure we need you to go to war do we need you what are you necessary for like more in doubt had a book with a funny title are men necessary but actually behind that is the real question that every culture has to answer which is why are men necessary why do we need men not despite being men but because they're men and the result of that sense of just detachment disconnection so i'll give you a stat like among men age twenty to twenty four a tenth of them ten percent of them are not in school or in work right they're not earning or learning we don't really know what they're doing well that's like that's the decimation of a generation and so we can't like those young men are in real danger i think and so back to your original question the second part of your question is i think that those late teen adolescent years into the twenties like if you get if you get the years sixteen to fifteen to twenty five roughly right and you've got and you lock into a job you lock into a sense of purpose you lock into a trajectory then i think your chances are pretty good but also that's where we lose a lot of young men too.

[Oliver Hudson]

Yeah i think men are also emotionally evolving to where vulnerability now is seen as more of a superpower than it is you know something that is you know looked at as weak and we we associate our sense of well being with you know providing and with a job and all of those sort of tactile things when when we can be needed for emotional things now you know we can be needed for a shoulder or wisdom or something rather than just sort of that masculine male role that we're so used to you know so it's almost like if you can get in touch with sort of who you are and be okay with how your emotions and your vulnerability and the way you feel you can provide in a.

[Richard Reeves]

Different way that's exactly right i love the way you put that provide in a different way you can be providing something else i mean actually one of the one of the tests in so back to your earlier question about historically like i was really looking into the the like anthropology and history and evolutionary psychology around like masculinity and the consensus really was that in most societies a boy becomes a man when he produces more than he needs for his own survival no uses more of what more food more money more energy more love more but in a sense like you're generating a surplus right you're actually you're generative you're producing more now of course that's true of women too but in the case of women because they actually reproduce for they do they do the you know they grow and give birth to and feed the babies right their generativity the way that they're contributing is like much more obvious and much more in a sense biologically fixed where for men it has to be more social it's more cultural and so actually it's like you're providing more than you get you were than you need for yourself that's what that's what it means to be a man in most cultures and that's what most rites of passage have also been about which is like okay now you're going to generate more than you need for yourself because the tribe needs you to generate more so there's it's just that in twenty twenty five in an urban environment in a advanced economy that's going to look very different to how it looked even one hundred years ago five hundred years ago and certainly five thousand years ago right that's going to be very different for men and actually that's why the male role evolves even more than the female role because actually because the female role always has this fixed issue about well we produce the babies right it doesn't mean that women aren't doing a million other things as well i don't want to be misunderstood of course for men it's always a little bit more constructed it's always a little bit more okay so what does it mean to be a protector and a provider today oliver because it's not going to look the same as it did one hundred years ago it might be protecting your kids from some of the online dangers by understanding their online life playing video games with them teaching them how to navigate the online world in a way that actually gets the benefits of that world but also makes them aware of some of the dangers of that online world too that's more helpful now than teaching them how to fight a lion.

Or bow hunt an elk actually being able to navigate reddit is more important than shooting reindeer.

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[Kate Hudson]

Is one of my favorite times to travel with my family you know it's not too hot it's not too cold and the crowds are lighter so this year we've been talking about heading to switzerland because i know the kids would love hiking in the alps riding those mountain trains and of course trying every kind of chocolate they can find when we do trips like this i love need to stay in an airbnb you get that local vibe it feels like you actually live there for a little while which makes the memories that much richer so it's if you're traveling this fall it's also a perfect time to think about hosting your own home on airbnb and the best part you don't have to do it all by yourself with airbnb's co host network you can hire a local co host to manage everything from your listing guest communications and even making sure the place looks amazing find a co host at airbnb dot.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Com host twentieth century studios presents the upcoming comedy ella mckay from academy award winning writer director james l brooks whose legendary credits include as good as it gets terms of endearment broadcast news and the simpsons emma mackey plays ella mckay a passionate idealistic young woman who juggles her family and work life in a heartfelt comedy brimming with hope about the people you love and how to survive them ella is highly intelligent and caring finding purpose in taking care of and defending others whether that be the public or even more difficult her family ella mckay features an all star cast including emma mackey jamie lee curtis jack loudon kumail nanjiani ayo adebiri julie kavner spike fern rebecca hall with albert brooks and woody harrelson it's a perfect holiday comedy about an imperfect family ella mckay only in theaters this friday get your tickets.

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[Trainer Games Advertiser]

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[Richard Reeves]

It on prime video starting january eighth.

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[Oliver Hudson]

Again raising boys i do have a little girl as well but you know i it's almost like i've worked purely off of instinct doing the best that you can i always say it's not if you're fucking them up it's to what degree you are because we're we just don't you know we're trying our best i have a certain way of doing things i remember what it's like kind of like what we just talked about a little bit ago what it was like to be fifteen sixteen seventeen so i don't have that hypocrisy now do i want to steer them away maybe from some of the things that i got into well i want to give them stories now whether they revere those stories or think or use it as a cautionary tale i don't know sometimes they're like yeah but dad when you told me that you did this this and that and like i'm like well no no no that wasn't supposed to be like oh you go ahead and do that it was not encouragement you know.

But it's it's tough because you you think you're doing a good job but you just you don't really know and i guess your boys are older now so do you see the proof in the pudding sort of later on in life when they have to you know be on their own and do their own thing yeah i.

[Richard Reeves]

Like to think so i mean the thing is that like the two the two things that i've wanted them to be are kindness kindness is everything and i hope that they've got that and also to have what my mother would call hoyle because my mother's welsh and welsh is her first language and so this is a word i heard quite a lot growing up which is hoyle h y w l and what it basically means is the literal translation is like the wind in your sail having agency probably the best translation to american english is something like mojo right but it's like having a having like being under your own steam having your own you know being on a mission being under your like having purpose trajectory direction right yeah and so for me that's the combination of kind of kindness and and coil is really what it's about now how that ends up i just don't know so one of my sons works in digital marketing whatever that is i mean that's all i really do know right another another one is a fifth grade teacher in baltimore city the other one we don't know what he's going to do yet but but i will say that like i've had this sense of agency and i'll give you one of my proudest moments as a father was that i i used to like if i'm on a train or a bus or something like that and there's someone who needs a seat like an elderly person or pregnant person or something like that and there are and there are young men sitting down i always tell them to get up right i always say i would say nice to say guys you know who who here i always do nice who here wants to give up their seat because i think this person would want it right i always i always comment and then my sons growing up would be with me and they would just be mortified so embarrassed about dad can stop doing it like they'll but these people looking down the phone to dad stop doing that right so embarrassing i'm like no i'm not going to stop doing that because these guys should give up their seat right and yeah and someone someone needs to if they're not doing it automatically then i'm gonna i'm gonna tell them how to do it right yeah anyway i'm i'm on a i'm on a train with my middle son who's probably the one who was most embarrassed by me when i was doing middle son i don't know what it is like two three years ago now it's very busy we're standing up there's a bunch of guys sitting down this elderly lady gets on my son says hey guys who's going to give up their seat i was like my work.

[Oliver Hudson]

Here is done i feel that right now too i i love that stuff because the pride the pride that you have for your there's nothing like that and when you are able to sort of see that and and it wasn't it wasn't a lesson it was just imprinted upon them from who you were and who you are and to know that they're actually watching because sometimes you think oh they don't give a about me my my oldest is eighteen and he's like whoa dad like you know he's turned he used to cuddle all the time and now he's turned into sort of that teenager who just doesn't to want want to do anything you know but you when you w when i watch him mimicking some of the things that i do and say and act you're like oh he's listening he's he's still in there he's listening always.

[Richard Reeves]

And they notice everything and i think that the the lesson for me is that kids believe their eyes not their ears and this has to be show not tell right you can have discussions about kindness and how it is supposed to be and how men should behave towards women and how you should be in the world in the end that's kind of irrelevant what actually matters is how do they see you relating to their mum how do they see you relating to people in the street how do they see you like being in the world and look we're gonna it up a lot right and so no doubt but it's a long arp it's on the it's on the average and they notice everything let me give you one example from my own life which is like i went through this phase where my youngest son is a complete tech geek and his favorite thing to do on a saturday was to go to this place called micro center which is this vast warehouse sized place just filled with like technology stuff like bits of computer and stuff i don't know we used to love going there it was completely windowless ghastly place as far as i'm concerned like full of full of full of nerds looking at text and he would always be like every saturday i'd be on a sofa and be like dad can you take me to my micro center yeah and he got to the point where he's old enough and i'm like no you can take the bus or i'll pay for an uber i'm not getting off i'm not i am not going you know i'm not going to drive you twenty minutes to that ghastly place in the walker and then i and then and then something changed in my own life actually was partly involved with some religious activities but changed my own life where i actually kind of thought you know what my kids aren't in the rail for that long how how long are they actually going to be asking me to go do something with them right and i made it i made a decision like most of the times when he asks dad can we go to microcenter i'm going to say yes even if in the moment i'm going to be like yeah that leave dad alone dad wants to drink coffee and like watch i did it and you know what a couple of months later and i didn't tell him anything i didn't tell anybody that i was doing it so just made a conscious couple of months later he said really noticed dad that since you did that thing you've been taking me to micro center a lot more often wow they notice everything.

[Oliver Hudson]

Yeah everything no i know i know i know and i act accordingly you know i do the same thing like it's sunday i'm watching football dad can we go hit golf balls because my kids are now obsessed with golf and i was a very good golfer and the last thing i want to fucking do is get up off the couch on a sunday and go hit golf balls but i'm like yeah you know what let's go you know because i know they're noticing i know they're taking it in they don't say thank you they don't it's none of that but i know that when they are forty years old they're like oh dad got off the key did with us he was there for us you know yeah this the sack sort of the sacrifice.

[Richard Reeves]

Sacrifice i know it's like i did it and of course as kids you're like narcissistic jerks basically that's back to the point about being a teenager but i had this experience my own my own dad where i was sixteen i was really happy at my school and my dad got a job on the other side of the country and i said well we should you know really we shouldn't move but i was so happy in the school that they said look let's just not move him he's got two more years to go and so what that meant was that my dad got up at like five am every monday morning and drove across the country and didn't come home till friday because you had to stay over there friday come home kind of friday night he did that for two years so that i could stay in so that i could stay in that school i didn't i didn't even notice i was probably vaguely aware that dad wasn't around as much so i was so wrapped up in my own stuff yeah i didn't know that's why he'd done it and he didn't and the point is he didn't he didn't tell me that's why he'd done it right he didn't say i'm doing this for you or whatever like i never knew i never knew right and then i realized like i said hey dad why does it do that thing where you kept driving i said well because we wanted to keep you in that school because you were so happy that i was like you drove across the country you know every week and i said really why did you do that and he said because it's what you do never forgotten that yeah it's because it's what you.

[Oliver Hudson]

Do it's it's such a it's such a simple statement but so true it is just what you do that's what you do yeah it's interesting just thinking thinking back on what you said about sort of you know watching and not being told but just sort of that imprinting there's a flip side to that too because when you don't when you grow up in not such a great place i think you you sometimes you have a choice sometimes it's just so ingrained that you're going to repeat some of these patterns but and i can relate this to my own life where you know i understand my dad's hangups i know that he came from a place of divorce as well at the same time i didn't want to be him so it was a switch where i said i'm going to be better you know i'm going to be different rather than this is how you love you know what i mean you love by not being there you know and then my stepdad came in and he was an incredible man for me and taught me what it was like to be a man taught me independence i was a mama's boy i was afraid of my own shadow and he gave me some tough love in the best way which is sort of just letting me be alone in the woods sometimes in colorado and letting me panic essentially and then coming out from behind a tree and saying oliver hey you're okay now get us home we were on atv's and little motorcycles and i was able to get myself home and he's like boom there's a lesson for you at the same time he wasn't my biological dad and so you know there was a lot there's a lot that i have of kurt but there's a lot that i have just sort of sort of built on my own through trial and error and through you know sort of cherry picking the things that i like and then throwing away the things that i don't i mean does that sort of happen probably even with a good family with you with me with with good dads i mean it's like yeah dad's great there but this i don't know really like yeah i.

[Richard Reeves]

Think that's right i like that imprinting i think that's right i think you're imprinted by the culture around you and so when you're figuring out how to be in the world today and how to be a man today then you're just drawing that inspiration from from the men around you and the men in your life and i don't think we have a we've we're consciously able to sort of choose necessarily what lessons like if it's by definite if it's being imprinted on you it's almost like it's a subconscious a subconscious thing right and that's why it like that's why it just over time like a guy behaving like this a guy you're just showing not telling it has this kind of cumulative effect right it's not a curriculum for masculinity or how to be a man in the world it's a behavior that's learned and observed and you said at the beginning that can be from one man it can be from other men can be from a bunch of men i mean again just raw my experience is like my my middle son really struggled at school and then he found he went to university but he went back to the uk he wanted to go to cardiff university because that's where my parents lived and he wanted to be near his grandparents and he told me one day he was you know when he was struggling through college and he struggled with some mental health issues and he said he could actually see on his walk to from his dorm room to the to the college he could see the tower of the hospital next to my parents house you just look north and see it there was a certain point in the walk and he said if i'm walking there and i'm feeling a bit down i look north and i can see that tower and i know that that's where grandpa is and if i need him he'll come and that helped me get through the day and actually he very rarely had to draw on them he'd go for sunday lunch whatever but he said just knowing that grandpa was there and they did help him and it's like you know so sometimes it doesn't just take more than one man in one generation sometimes it takes two generations my father has done a huge amount as the grandfather to my sons and especially to that son and like i don't know if there was just something in my relationship with him or some timing whatever it just like meant that my dad was able to kind of build something else complimentary around it he also taught him how to ride a bike when they're on vacation once and and so like and i think as a dad part of the challenge actually is to allow that to happen right allow the space for other men like uncle simon like my dad like a bunch of other people in my kids lives some of their coaches their colleagues colleagues one of their bosses to just actually also play that role and not be not be territorial about it right do our thing but recognize that you know what as i said earlier it's going to take a village and like yeah i'm like some of the other guys in my kids lives have definitely done a better job and sometimes actually they can't there's stuff that they can talk to my friends about that they can't talk to me about yeah.

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[Kate Hudson]

Of my favorite times to travel with my family you know it's not too hot it's not too cold and the crowds are lighter so this year we've been talking about heading to switzerland because i know the kids would love hiking in the alps riding those mountain trains and of course trying every kind of chocolate they can find when we do trips like this i love need to stay in an airbnb you get that local vibe it feels like you actually live there for a little while which makes the memories that much richer so if you're traveling this fall it's also a perfect time to think about hosting your own home on airbnb and the best part you don't have to do it all by yourself with airbnb's co host network you can hire a local co host to manage everything from your listing guest communications and even making sure the place looks amazing find a co host at airbnb dot com host twentieth.

[Narrator/Announcer]

Century studios presents the upcoming comedy ella mckay from academy award winning writer director james l brooks whose legendary credits include as good as it gets terms of endearment broadcast news and the simpsons emma mackey plays ella mckay a passionate idealistic young woman who juggles her family and work life in a heartfelt comedy brimming with hope about the people you love and how to survive them ella is highly intelligent and caring finding purpose in taking care of and defending others whether that be the public or even more difficult her family ella mckay features an all star cast including emma mackey jamie lee curtis jack loudon kumail nanjiani ayo adebiri julie kavner spike fern rebecca hall with albert brooks and woody harrelson it's a perfect holiday comedy about an imperfect family ella mckay only in theaters this friday get your tickets now ten athletes.

[Trainer Games Advertiser]

Will face the toughest job interview in fitness that will push past physical and mental breaking points.

You are the fittest of the fit only one of you will leave here with an ifit contract for two hundred fifty thousand dollars this is where mindset comes in someone will be eliminated pressure is coming down this is trainer games watch it on prime.

[Richard Reeves]

Video starting january eighth.

[IBM Advertiser]

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[Oliver Hudson]

What'S been your response with just women overall just generally you know.

[Richard Reeves]

If they're mums or boys i would say that it's been mostly pretty positive like the boy mums are a big force i think right now in in our culture they're like very grateful in some ways and interested and worried and happy that we're talking about it and interestingly with younger women even though they don't have kids like they're typically quite open to it because they're seeing it in their brothers and their friends some of these kind of issues and struggles actually i think the toughest thing is with women who are like middle aged and older have a visceral resistance to this discussion and i completely understand why and i share it a little bit too which is like are you kidding me like we've only just broken some of these glass ceilings and we still by the way have got some still to break and do you know what i've had to go through to get where i am now and now you want to turn back to boys and men and so actually i get that there's a generational thing here where like i think for women who've really had to kind of leave piles of broken glass behind them as they've broken glass ceilings to suddenly say to them oh now boys and men that's hard and.

[Oliver Hudson]

I get that yeah both can happen at the same time as you've said.

[Richard Reeves]

Yes and they get that but there is a there is an initial kind of visceral reaction to it which i i understand and you have to be reassuring that that's not the goal here to go back and you can do two things at once it's not a zero sum game but people i understand why people feel it in fact it's.

[Oliver Hudson]

Really interesting that sort of reactionary that react the reactionary feeling of pullback when you talk about you know the mental health and the well being of men and boys and wanting to champion something like that it's strange that we've been almost conditioned you know to be like oh wait a minute is that is that okay when in reality what's wrong i mean it's it's it's a necessity it's they're human beings who dealing with their own you know yeah yeah i.

[Richard Reeves]

Mean i think it is because of this fear of where where it might lead and i think particularly in our current culture there's a lot of fear that you know there's some online misogyny there's some obviously very famous figures online et cetera and so there's a kind of fear that there's this growing backlash against women right and that young men are being young men are being recruited to a misogynist cause and i think that is largely not happening but i can see why people might fear it happening and it feels to a lot of women like that their gains are quite fragile and that we could end up going backwards and you can totally understand why some of them would feel that i don't think it's true but i think we have to really hold that thought in our minds whenever we're talking about this which is like if we're going to rise together we actually kind of need both men and women to feel invested in the well being of each other and and get past that zero something that means you do have to take seriously the arguments that women will make about this new focus on boys and men and and to emphasize that we have to do both it's not good for women if men are struggling or vice versa but you you have to get to that point.

[Oliver Hudson]

Of course i mean women benefit from healthy men i mean and men benefit from healthy women yeah exactly yeah no.

[Richard Reeves]

If you say you say it like that it sounds so simple yeah i think it's true but it does can get weaponized that's the problem this work can get weaponized by people who do have quite a reactionary gender and so we have to be aware of aware of that but not seed the ground as a result like i don't think us running silent on it is a.

[Oliver Hudson]

Good idea either yeah but just what do we do you know how do we implement these things into our everyday life i mean i know when we parent our boys we're sort of working off of instinct or books if people read books or however they're doing it but but you know how do we how do we how do we put.

[Richard Reeves]

This into practice yeah you mean at a personal level you're not asking me to do a policy prescription no on.

[Oliver Hudson]

Our personal level sure throw me a policy list yeah that's what i want.

[Richard Reeves]

To do but i i feel i feel you look i think that you've said it a couple of times now and i really want to underline it which is trusting your instincts especially as a dad like actually there are ways that kind of dads interact with their kids that are just on the average a little bit different right so they're a little bit more likely to help kids take risks and to manage those risks they're a little bit more likely to be doing through play and especially a little bit sometimes like competitive play fun competitive play to actually be helping kids negotiate the outside world that seems to be true especially when adolescents so your kids being the age they are now means that like you're you're sort of in some ways at maximum impact right on your kids outcomes right not not just boys but girls too but i do think that like a lot of dads now kind of feel like sort of second rate mums all right and they kind of they use a maternal standard of parenting to judge their own parenting and that's not right actually we do bring some different instincts to the party and so for example around the risk taking thing there's very often a creative tension between moms and dads and this of course it doesn't always go this way but very often it's like it where a dad is kind of wanting the kids to take some more risks in a careful and thoughtful way and do some more adventurous stuff like your stepdad did right as you just described that lovely story of you out in the woods and the mums are a bit more like be careful and that's a creative tension if the dads actually end up just downgrading their instincts and saying oh well you know mother knows best then they actually end up disempowering themselves and doing a disservice to their kids so as a dad especially my message to dads right now is your instincts are important and they're not exactly the same as the mums and you need to discuss everything and be in creative tension with that but if your instinct is that your son or daughter should do x or y don't assume that just because your wife or partner disagrees with you that you're wrong.

A bit of dad energy is a good thing and it's it's one of the one of the areas i think we've lost a bit of ground is that we've actually ended up i think sometimes almost mistrusting our own instincts that's why i was so happy to say you've got to go with your instincts because i think we tend to trust maternal instincts more than paternal instincts yeah and that's that's a mistake we do need both and so lean into those obviously don't do harm like the toxic masculinity stuff of course online now and they're kind of moral panels panic around the online world now like don't be the parent who's like i can't believe you're watching that slam the laptop shout at them i'll give you one example the clothes which is this woman came up to me and said she owed me an apology and she wouldn't thank me i'd never met her before and i said why so because my son watched a video on youtube and then came to me and said do you know what mom boys and men are struggling in lots of ways now too and she said i lost my temper with him i said do you what are you watching i don't want you watching this shit online do you know what women have had to deal with is this a misogynist stuff that i've been reading about blah blah blah and he's like mom maybe you should come watch it with me and it was a video it was my video it was my big think video and she said by the end of it she's in tears she's apologizing to her son and saying i'm so sorry that i assumed the worst and actually this this is reasonable and interesting and then they ended up she said having the best conversation they'd ever had and how he was he was fifteen how he was struggling at school and was struggling with ideas of masculinity and they got into and then they both came to this event and they came up and she kind of apologized to me and thanked me for creating that conversation with her son and so don't assume that just because your son's online that he's turning into a misogynist monster engage with curiosity not contempt doesn't mean you shouldn't be careful sure but like engage and also for take learn from them you don't understand the internet right you don't they do yeah they understand it they live in it and the idea that you know what's going on on the internet is is hilarious today oh it's.

[Oliver Hudson]

It'S a joke it's archaic i don't know what's going on yeah have them.

[Richard Reeves]

Talk to you about it discuss it so andrew tate i'll try not to mention but like this yeah right i watched andrew i watched andrew tate videos with my sons and we talked about what they hated what they didn't like and to be clear horrible on horrible misogynist monster like to be clear oh gosh yeah but let's talk about it let's watch it let's not yeah you know let's let's talk because everyone's consuming this it's it's everywhere and so like.

[Oliver Hudson]

Let'S talk about it yeah my kids would with me and they'd be like dad love andrew tate i love him he's like and i'm like it's like you guys.

[Richard Reeves]

And then they do it to their mom yeah they're trying to.

[Oliver Hudson]

Get a reaction from me get it.

[Richard Reeves]

From you from mums.

They'Re doing it to wind you up because guess what of course teenagers and especially teenage boys they're a bit transgressive and so this is the way and in your case they're kind of they're holding it but also like i think a lot of teen boys young men are quite likely to go through a phase right now where they're interested in those kinds of figures i think it's the failure of mainstream institutions to hold an honest conversation about these issues has created the market for people like andrew tate what's interesting about andrew tate is that the demand not the supply and it's our fault it is our fault that any boys are turning to andrew tate that's not andrew tate's fault oh yeah and it's not the boy's fault it's our fault.

[Oliver Hudson]

Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah entirely oh my gosh i know well this has been amazing so wait i want to go where if we want to like dig deeper into this we can go you have the for your think tank you have a website right yeah so.

[Richard Reeves]

It'S just a aibm dot org so american institute for boys and men dot org that's where all the best research on this issue is to be found.

[Oliver Hudson]

There yeah and you can you can deep dive into all that on on the on the website as promised earlier.

[Richard Reeves]

It'S really boring yeah no but but.

[Oliver Hudson]

I know really boring but that's the sometimes that's the best stuff the good.

[Richard Reeves]

Stuff that's the good stuff is the boring stuff but serious it's but this is the truth is that i know i made a joke about being boring the issues facing boys and men are too serious to be left to the online clowns they have to be addressed by us by people in the media by people in think tanks etc we have to be doing this work if we don't want it to be being done by the clowns and so like actually there's like joking aside like this is a vocation for me now because i've really come to believe that neglecting these issues.

Has been a big problem and we need to catch up now i mean we need to make our boys and men in our own lives in our own communities like there is every guy listening to this knows a boy or a young man in their lives who they should text right now or call and say how are you doing and then ask them again now how you're really doing who will benefit from you reaching out to them right i guarantee it and so this is not just about policy it's about like if you're a guy you're listening to this i'm telling you once you've stopped listening to it call that boy boy or young man in your life a neighbor a cousin uncle call him see him help him we have got to make these boys and men know that we see them that we love them and that we have their backs amazing.

[Oliver Hudson]

Man this makes me emotional it's so true make the make a phone call there's you know it's this is the connectivity it's like yeah i'm thinking about.

[Richard Reeves]

You it's very simple thinking about you.

[Oliver Hudson]

So simple yeah thank you brother really fun i appreciate the time man thank.

[Richard Reeves]

You take care of those take care of those boys as well i will.

[Oliver Hudson]

I will all right all right man cheers.

That was awesome what a cool guy god man dedicating his life to the men and the boys i i think it's great you know i think it's great i wonder if he listens to boys to men i wonder if that's his favorite r b group i should have asked him that god damn it oliver you should have asked and you know it's interesting i i love what he said but you know if this resonated with you call someone call call a friend call a dude call a young cousin call whoever it's it's important men are important you know i know that sounds crazy and it's sort of strange that you know this idea of making men better is a negative we're all humans and we're biologically different we have different feelings you know than women do we have we have a primal n that will always be inside of us that is different and so why not harness that why not get better it's all about just getting better so when we hear about masculinity we hear that word let's not put toxic in front of it yes there are toxic masculines of course there's toxic femininity there's toxic everything but masculinity that word has been bastardized it seemed to make it just negative when really it's not so anyway i just that's my thing love you i'm out.

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[Richard Reeves]

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