Clearing the Docket with Aaron Korsh & Kevin Bray - Pt. 2

Summary

Sidebar: A Suits Watch Podcast – Episode Summary Episode: Clearing the Docket with Aaron Korsh & Kevin Bray - Pt. 2
Release Date: February 18, 2025

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Introduction

In the second part of their engaging conversation with Suits creator Aaron Korsh and producing director Kevin Bray, hosts Patrick J. Adams and Sarah Rafferty delve deeper into the intricacies of the show’s first season. Building upon the foundational discussions from part one, this episode explores character development, pivotal scenes, production techniques, and the challenges faced during the show's inception.

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Character Development: Donna Paulsen’s Arc

Sarah Rafferty reflects on Donna Paulsen’s evolution, particularly focusing on her portrayal from a status-confident woman to someone facing challenges imposed by characters like Malik.

Sarah Rafferty (01:00): "When I'm watching the show, I'm viewing it from my experience in the world as a woman. And what was interesting about Donna until Malik came in and really kind of tried to tear her down status wise..."

Aaron Korsh elaborates on his approach to character dynamics, emphasizing equality and humanity over hierarchical status.

Aaron Korsh (03:15): "I don't think I'm the boss and you're the employee. Right. It never occurs to me until you really piss me off."

This perspective ensures that relationships within the firm remain grounded in mutual respect, a principle that resonates with both Rafferty and the audience.

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Challenges Faced During Season One

Aaron Korsh opens up about the personal and professional struggles he encountered while managing the first season.

Aaron Korsh (10:06): "I was chained between home and work. I felt like I was a prisoner of those two things. And it was horrifically difficult for me to balance those things."

Balancing the demands of a new showrunner role with personal life, especially with a young child, presented significant hurdles. Korsh discusses the tension between his vision for the show and the studio’s expectations, highlighting moments of frustration and eventual growth.

Aaron Korsh (13:45): "I had to translate. I knew when we wrote it that in my gut it felt good... But I wasn't able to readily communicate what it is."

Patrick Adams shares his own insecurities and fears of underperforming, which contributed to a tense working environment initially.

Patrick Adams (15:20): "I felt like I was a bit... terrified in every scene that I was going to screw this up."

However, as the season progressed, both Korsh and the cast found ways to navigate these challenges, leading to a more cohesive and confident production team.

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Production Techniques: Walk and Talks, Oners, and Blocking

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to discussing the innovative production techniques that gave Suits its distinctive feel. Korsh and Bray explain the deliberate choice to incorporate walk-and-talk scenes and oners (long, uninterrupted shots) to enhance the show's dynamism.

Aaron Korsh (34:28): "The walk and talk and oner are not the same. Right. A oner means you do the walk and talk in one shot."

These techniques not only added a cinematic quality to the show but also served practical purposes, such as reducing shooting time and maintaining narrative energy. The hosts and guests recount specific scenes where these methods were pivotal, like the iconic can opener scene and the interview exchange between Harvey and Mike.

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Notable Scenes: The Can Opener and Interview Moments

The can opener scene, a fan favorite, is dissected in detail. Korsh recounts the creative decision to leave certain elements unexplained to maintain intrigue.

Aaron Korsh (26:17): "If you have no break point, then you have to pick just one. But oftentimes it's awesome... But I wouldn't change it. It's part of the charm of the scene."

Rafferty and Adams share their personal experiences filming the scene, highlighting the spontaneity and chemistry that made it memorable.

Patrick Adams (27:30): "I just love that. It's in the film scene."

Additionally, the interview scene where Harvey hires Mike is praised for its strong performances and naturalistic blocking.

Aaron Korsh (37:06): "This scene was another stroke of brilliance... There is nothing, no false moves or inorganic."

These discussions underscore the meticulous planning and improvisational elements that contributed to the scene's success.

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Casting Insights: Chemistry Reads and Character Selection

The episode also delves into the casting process, particularly the challenges of finding the right actor for strong, multifaceted roles. Korsh and Bray discuss the "chemistry reads" that were pivotal in selecting actors who could embody the show's complex characters.

Aaron Korsh (63:52): "We had to talk to Dave. This is the woman for the role. And then that was it. So your talent won him over."

Rafferty recounts her own casting experience, emphasizing the importance of mutual recommendation and the producers' trust in her abilities.

Sarah Rafferty (64:56): "I think we're all in agreement. It was a very clear moment."

The hosts highlight how these casting decisions were instrumental in shaping the show's dynamic and ensuring that each character resonated authentically with the audience.

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Evolution Across Seasons and Final Thoughts

As the episode draws to a close, the discussion shifts to how the production team adapted based on early reactions and the growing fanbase. Korsh shares insights on maintaining creative integrity despite external pressures.

Aaron Korsh (68:02): "Season one, to me, was a great first chapter... I couldn't be happier with the way it introduces the show and platform."

The hosts express gratitude towards the listeners and express hope for future interactions, reinforcing the familial atmosphere of the podcast community.

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Conclusion

This episode of Sidebar: A Suits Watch Podcast offers an in-depth look into the early stages of Suits, revealing the behind-the-scenes efforts that shaped its success. Through candid conversations, notable quotes, and personal anecdotes, Adams and Rafferty provide listeners with a comprehensive understanding of the show's creation, challenges, and enduring legacy.

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Notable Quotes:

• Sarah Rafferty (01:00): "She never apologized for who she was, and she knew she belonged and that she was valued."

• Aaron Korsh (03:15): "We are all human beings. I don't really walk around ever thinking someone is bad beneath me in any way in life."

• Aaron Korsh (10:06): "I felt like I was a prisoner of those two things. And it was horrifically difficult for me to balance those things."

• Aaron Korsh (26:17): "But I wouldn't change it. It's part of the charm of the scene."

• Patrick Adams (27:30): "I just love that. It's in the film scene."

• Aaron Korsh (37:06): "There is nothing, no false moves or inorganic."

• Sarah Rafferty (64:56): "I think we're all in agreement. It was a very clear moment."

These insightful quotes capture the essence of the discussions, highlighting the dedication, challenges, and creative choices that defined the first season of Suits.

Transcript

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[Unknown Speaker]

Foreign.

[Patrick Adams]

Hi, I'm Patrick Adams.

[Sarah Rafferty]

And I'm Sarah Rafferty.

[Patrick Adams]

And this is sidebar, a Suits Watch podcast where we watch episodes of the show and discuss.

[Sarah Rafferty]

And this week is part two of our conversation with Suits creator Aaron Korsch and producing director Kevin Bray.

[Patrick Adams]

If you haven't listened to part one yet, pause and go back. It was such a fun conversation hearing stories from creating the show, what really worked for them in the first season, and how they see the characters.

[Sarah Rafferty]

And in this episode, we go even deeper with our theories on the can opener. We hear some great casting stories and more behind the scenes detail. So please enjoy our conversation with Aaron and Kevin. When I'm watching the show, I'm viewing it from my experience in the world as a woman. And what was interesting about Donna until Malik came in and really kind of tried to tear her down status wise and make people assume that she was where she was because she slept with Harvey.

[Aaron Korsch]

Yep.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Until then, we didn't really have Donna have any issues around status. And I think, and as I'm watching season one and remembering these moments, like even there's kind of a one. Or it was in Felix's episode where she says, you're such a wuss. Like even the fact that she said that to him, I remember being with you and being like, wait, really? Like she really talks to him like this? We had a scene in the finale that we cut when she walks in and she says, like, what the hell is wrong with you? We ended up cutting it because it was a little too soon to show that side of their relationship. You were saying we were gonna save it for season two, but she walks in and she's talking about Cameron Dennis, I think, and she's like, you know, she's just telling him like it is. And I remember needing little nudges to not have there be any status issue between Harvey and Donna and you. Kevin helped me a lot with that because I had you there saying like, no, none of that's there. Like Let that go. And I think that that was important in terms of what you're talking about for me, just as a person in the world. Like, she never apologized for who she was, and she knew she belonged and that she was valued. She understood that she was indispensable. And that was a new way for me to walk around in the world in that lady's shoes. And that meant a lot to me personally, and I think to some of the women who I've talked to post suits who connected to that, it meant a lot to them.

[Aaron Korsch]

Well, to me, it's like, I think the characters in suits, when I work with you guys and I work with Kevin, I don't think I'm the boss and you're the employee. Right. It never occurs to me until you really piss me off.

[Patrick Adams]

Yeah, that's fair. Again, something I've never done.

[Sarah Rafferty]

We run out of time.

[Patrick Adams]

Never happen.

[Aaron Korsch]

But honestly, I think, like, look, I am in charge. I have to. Not even in charge. I wouldn't even say I have to. Someone has to make the final decision, because otherwise there is no one making the final decision. But that's different than thinking I'm the boss. And it's, we are all human beings. I don't really walk around ever thinking someone is bad beneath me in any way in life. And I hate that people do that.

[Sarah Rafferty]

And Donna says that to Jessica in the finale. She says, Cameron Dennis always treated the people below him terribly, meaning maybe Donna. And I've always respected that in you, Jessica.

[Aaron Korsch]

Yes. And I had a friend years ago that pointed out, this is way before suits, and I wasn't even successful. I was a struggling writer's assistant. But he said something to me because he was like, you just treat people like people. You don't worry about what the status is. And I'm like, I don't just treat them like people. We're all people. That is actually what we are. And I think that's how it is, that Jessica and Harvey can have that relationship and whatever, and we can all have. And Harvey and Donna, he doesn't think of Donna as beneath him. He thinks of Donna as a human. 98% of the time, they're dealing with each other as human beings, and they're not thinking about, what's your age, what's your status, what's your position, what's your gender, what's your color. But once in a while, they actually acknowledge that stuff, because that's what real human beings do. So that's the balance is to not make those things being the defining characteristic of suits. But not to completely ignore them. I'm thinking of the black no crack comment in 201. And some other things. Like, sometimes we acknowledge our differences in a humorous way because they do exist.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Well, it's what Gina said to us when we were talking to her earlier this season when she said about writing. It's like, write. Write for a white man in power, and I'll do the rest.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Sarah Rafferty]

You know.

[Aaron Korsch]

Well, she does.

[Sarah Rafferty]

She was. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, that's. And I had a conversation with you in 2016 where you're like, I'm not writing. Purposely writing, like, these messages into. That's not what I'm focused on. I'm not making some statement. And then I said to you. But sometimes the statement is received. Yeah. And that's what's particularly interesting.

[Aaron Korsch]

Yeah. I think you're making a mistake if you're trying to make a statement.

[Sarah Rafferty]

You're not preaching with this.

[Aaron Korsch]

No. I think you just try to tell interesting stories and let the rest, like. Yeah. Like you were saying, if. If the. You know, I get a lot of feedback from you and fans and whatever about the strong women on Suits.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Yes.

[Aaron Korsch]

It's not like I ever sat down and be like, I'm going to create strong women on Suits. I just like my characters to be intelligent and confident most of the time.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Like you.

[Aaron Korsch]

But also vulnerable, funny and handsome. But no, like, if you are, Aaron.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Shut up and just look pretty.

[Aaron Korsch]

But if they're. So I write them in that way. And then we write a character we don't even like. Anita Gibbs. Anita Gibbs might have been a man. We wrote the character and then auditioned men and women of different ages, ethnicities, whatever, and we hired the person we thought ultimately was the best. And so Anita became Anita. But the lines were not gonna change if it was a man or woman. And that character, though, a lot of people obviously hated her, she was certainly strong and intelligent and forceful and powerful and confident and confident. So to me, you write the characters and let the chips fall what they may.

[Patrick Adams]

Well, I'm just curious. We've been to Love Fest for the most part. What, if anything, do you remember was real hard? Any particular specific struggles, moments, even maybe just solving a problem in a scene, but anything that you remember, that was, like, that was a tough day, you know? And obviously some you probably don't want to share, and that's fine. But I'm curious.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Patrick has brought into this podcast, like he once has said, part of his intention is to also talk about what was Hard and conflict and what, you know, weird that Patrick was that guy.

[Patrick Adams]

It was.

[Aaron Korsch]

Well, you want to start? Go ahead.

[Patrick Adams]

You can pull up your list.

[Unknown Speaker]

Just different working styles of actors. People had to learn each other's styles and Patrick's incredibly prepared. And I think Gabriel can walk through a scene and not say the words, but you'll have a pretty good idea of what he's thinking and what he's trying to do. Like he's kind of got a silent film thing, but the words. Because it was quite often very dense and had a lot of what I've learned from actors. Very hard to learn these words that are talking about like these legalese words and stuff. So with Gabriel, there was like a people having to meet in the middle with his style of acting and the other style of acting, I remember that created a lot of tension quite often and you know, getting it done and like you say getting it done once so that we can move on to have fun.

[Aaron Korsch]

So.

[Unknown Speaker]

Right, right. But all praise because if you turn the TV off and you watch Gabriel walk through a scene, when he does his things and looks and turns and all this stuff that he does, you kind of know what went down. Did he win in that scene or did he lose? That's really all we're interested in. Right. You know, when he lost and you know, when he wants. Aaron probably hates me saying this. Like, don't have to hear the words are enjoyable. You know, it is great seasoning, but like it can sometimes work. And he was very good at that. As are you. And as are you. But I remember that that created stress for me.

[Patrick Adams]

Like, which one am I playing to?

[Unknown Speaker]

Like, which one am I time wise? No, just like getting the work done. Because we had to really noodle around that a lot to get. Get the work done the way it had to. Have you be happy with the end of the scene as well. So did that. It was always.

[Aaron Korsch]

Is that what you were trying to do? Make me happy?

[Patrick Adams]

Still to this day.

[Unknown Speaker]

Common courtesy. Just common courtesy.

[Aaron Korsch]

Well, look, the hardest thing for me, I had a small child. He was a year and a half. And I'm talking about Kevin Bray. No, my son was about a year and a half. And when you're a new parent, you're getting no sleep. And I had started the show, I was so inexperienced as a writer. I was as old as most first time showrunners, but not nearly as experienced as a writer because I didn't start writing until I was 31 or even attempting to write. So I was this new showrunner that had never been above the lowest level of writer. So I didn't know what I was doing. And I had a new baby, and I was getting no sleep, and I felt chained between home and work. I felt like I was a prisoner of those two things. And it was horrifically difficult for me to balance those things. I never felt like I was doing a good enough job in either one. And that's when we get to, you know that people are always trying to fight you and say, you're wrong, you're wrong, you're wrong. And. And we were gonna talk about this a little bit from a writing standpoint. They paired me with someone that was sort of meant to oversee me, and his name is Sean Jablonski. And there were pros and cons to that relationship. And ironically, they paired him to oversee me. But I was actually older than he was. That's what I mean about being older, but less experienced. But Sean had a different vision of the show than I did. Completely different vision. Now, he brought a lot to the table in terms of. Really, a lot of it was in terms of Harvey's and Lewis character development. He was very Made sure that Harvey didn't just come into a scene with bluster. He always had. He needed to accomplish something in the scene or bring a paper. It was a lot. It was very helpful in the writing of Harvey and in Lewis. He brought a lot of the balls in your court. He was the one that first sort of introduced the. Really making Lewis kind of ridiculous as a character and pushing it in that way. But having said that, he wanted every episode to be as I would. This is my interpretation of it, to be exploring the world of some outside firm and some guest character. So if the guest character worked at a magazine, you'd spend 80% of the episode exploring the world of a magazine or exploring the world of a golf course or whatever it is. I wanted to explore the internal world of our law firm. But in the beginning of the show, he would start here, I would start here, and he would sort of pull me this way, and we would meet in the middle. But by the end of the year, I would just be like, okay, I know where we're gonna meet. Let's just go here. But he would. This is my view of it. He never would move here. And that was incredibly difficult because it was so hard for me to do what I was doing. And I was feeling overwhelmed, and I felt like we had to fight about every episode. And that. Boy, it almost broke me that first season. And then And I will say, you know, look, Patrick could be very questioning of scenes, let's say that is such a nice way, in a forceful manner. And I.

[Patrick Adams]

More in the first season, or I felt like I got way worse in the second season, maybe, but more and more confident in my communicating of that the first season. I felt like I was a bit.

[Aaron Korsch]

Well, your force of your questioning might have been. Was greater in the second season, but it wasn't nothing in the first season. And it was just more like when people are just coming at you.

[Unknown Speaker]

Good thing I got this quicker in the bathroom.

[Aaron Korsch]

What I would say is, look, we were talking about before, about when people question, should we be doing this or should we be doing that? And being open to it, that's one thing. But like the kind of show you wanted it to be, like, I didn't need to question, do I want to be going and having the show be outside of a law firm. I was 100% sure of that. But when it happens from all sides, it's just a lot, especially when you're on your new footing. And I remember you and Kevin, one time you both called me up and you were like, they were trying to question why a scene was working or not working. And the threading and the truthfulness of the scene. Right. And I had to translate. I knew when we wrote it that in my gut it felt good. It felt like it worked. I read the lines out loud, and I can find the emotional truth and through line of the scene for me, but that doesn't mean I can readily communicate what it is. And I remember the two of them called me and it was like, we're about to shoot a scene and they were coming at me and why is this and why is that? And I was like, oh, my God, I don't know how to answer this question. And I try to answer it as best I can. And then Kevin says to me, it seems to me and Patrick like you're just quick enough to lie to us about what's going on in the moment. And I'm like, I'm not lying to you. I'm explaining it to you as I feel it. But. So those were just. The difficulties of the first season is being. When you're a new showrunner, people are really coming to you and they want reassurance that you know what you're doing and that, you know, how this scene.

[Patrick Adams]

And that we're doing a good job. I mean, when I think of. I guess, hard for me to remember that, but I can only fathom that's like my first real job and I'm on set and I'm terrified in every scene that I'm going to screw this up and that. And so if I perceive something in the scene that doesn't work, it's really just me saying, of course. I am so scared I'm going to not do this. Well, please, boss who you're already thinking, like, I'm not the boss of anybody. But I'm like, no, you are the only boss I have. Tell me how to fix this and make it great, because I don't know how to do it. And that's just one person doing that to you. I imagine everybody to some degree is doing it to you, like, hey, help us make this better, because I can't make this work as it is or something.

[Aaron Korsch]

But I. And I also think, look, now that we're doing, you know, we're in season one of Suits la, and here's the thing. So you didn't come and say, look, I'm afraid I can't do this. Well, can you help me?

[Patrick Adams]

Yeah, of course.

[Aaron Korsch]

And I didn't come and say, look, what's going on here is you're afraid. Look, I'm afraid.

[Patrick Adams]

Yeah, we're all afraid. Let's be afraid together.

[Aaron Korsch]

That would have been great, right? We were like, you're wrong. Exactly. So now, though, we're in season one, and I can see, look, I'm not perfect at this, but I'm still working progress. But early on in the shooting of the first episode, I think it was after the pilot, one of the actors came to me with an issue. And I. In my head, I was like, they're afraid. And I knew it. And I was gentle and I was like, look, this is how I think this is gonna go. And da, da, da, da, da, da. And I think it was incredibly successful. And the scene worked great, and they really just needed reassurance that they were gonna do and do a good job and it was gonna come off well. But season one of Suits Ed didn't have that knowledge. I didn't have that experience. I was exhausted. I felt like I was being a shitty dad and a shitty husband. And when someone would come at me with the slightest little thing, that was a legitimate question. I'd be like, shut the up. I'm busy and I'm doing the best I can. So that, to me, was the real frustrations during the first eight and a half seasons of Suits. But I think for the last, the last four episodes, we had it dialed.

[Patrick Adams]

I wasn't there. I know you were in the last one.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Did you get a therapist at a certain point?

[Aaron Korsch]

Oh, yeah.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Or did you up your time?

[Patrick Adams]

Yeah.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Second therapist between seasons one and two.

[Aaron Korsch]

I don't remember what. Because at one point I had to change because just geographically my therapist was on the other side of town. But at some point I got a therapist that I love and still love. And ironically, it was a German man, which is funny. Cause Lipschitz. But. And the writers. Certainly in later years, the writers would be like. When I was getting in a certain mood, they'd be like, have you seen Freedom in anytime recently?

[Sarah Rafferty]

I think people knew when your appointment was. I think.

[Aaron Korsch]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sarah Rafferty]

It was like Tuesday at 10am yeah, yeah.

[Aaron Korsch]

Or whatever.

[Patrick Adams]

Make sure to book that meeting with Aaron after that.

[Sarah Rafferty]

But I did. But I noticed with me personally that there was a shift in how much you would actually make an outgoing call with not a note or anything. Just out of, like, I'm driving home, I'm going to call Sarah and tell her how good she is in this scene that I just put together and how I'm thinking of her. Like, there was.

[Patrick Adams]

Those were the best.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Like, this shift also your child was older and stuff. But into, like, nurturing, you know, maybe. Maybe the family. You had more time with your family. You had time to nurture them and you had more time to nurture us. Maybe, you know, something came in where, like, we were successful. And so there was this shift where there was time for some of those calls, which I just want to say I really appreciated. And that understanding of knowing how vulnerable we felt and how scared we were to be. To suck and, you know, like we were shooting something and we didn't know how it was gonna cut together because sometimes we'd be doing it line by line or whatever, and then you'd call and say, this scene was really great. And you'd be like, oh, my God, it was.

[Aaron Korsch]

No way.

[Sarah Rafferty]

I can't believe it.

[Aaron Korsch]

The funny thing is, I do remember doing that even from the beginning. Because the thing that I would say is this. So those were the struggles, right? And they were significant. And I really had a pit in my stomach. The first many years of suits. I would be afraid I was gonna do a shitty job. And it was really a struggle. However, within those seasons, there were also incredible moments of satisfaction. I mean, incredible moments both on stage in the writer's room and very often in the edit bay. And when I would be in the edit bay. And I would love the work that you guys did. I mean, I Loved it. I would be compelled to let you know I wrote you emails. I remember texts. I saved them and I did that. I knew you guys would appreciate it, but I wasn't doing it for you. I was doing it in the same way when I have a friend I. I haven't thought about for a while. I'll text Kevin, he'll be like, I missed my buddy. Right? Like, I'm just expressing myself. And I loved your work in the edit bay. And I will say this, I don't know if any of the Suits LA cast is watching this thing, but I just finished editing the first episode after the pilot and I felt that way about so many performances, so many scenes. I was so happy, I was so proud. And I didn't call a goddamn one of them. Yeah, you gotta earn. But I meant to. Honestly, I just have been so busy.

[Patrick Adams]

You did it here, now it counts there.

[Aaron Korsch]

Listen, this counts all.

[Sarah Rafferty]

We can just cut that and send it to each one of them.

[Aaron Korsch]

No, but I mean, that's to me, what drives me to work so hard is that I want to be happy in the edit bay. I don't want to be ashamed of myself. And that's why I do this. And now, then, and also for 10 or 15 years later, I get to watch it and be so proud. And I love it. It's great. Kevin, you did an amazing job.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Kevin, you did.

[Patrick Adams]

I'll get it out.

[Unknown Speaker]

So did you, Aaron. So did you.

[Patrick Adams]

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[Sarah Rafferty]

I want to talk about the can opener scene, which is in the finale, and the walk and talks and how the constraints of time built for you that spontaneous thinking and movement of the camera that actually became some of the scenes that were like, that's a famous Kevin Wonder, you know, or that's a walk and talk. And when did that get built into the fabric of the show? And then also, I do know that you prepared, you looked back. And I really would love to know what, like, what struck you when you were looking back with 15 years difference in time, you know, with all this space and time when you looked back and what you took, screen grabs and those kinds of things. So whatever order you want to approach those three in, we can edit the question.

[Unknown Speaker]

We'll talk about the oners first. Okay, so I think, yeah, I think a lot of the oners, and I think that's something we discussed, is trying to get, you know, behavior in the frame. That's funnier with two shots. It's funnier. You guys were good with two people in the shot.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Like seeing both faces.

[Unknown Speaker]

Well, seeing both faces and seeing the actual scene go down without having to construct it and cut back and forth sometimes can Be when the performance is smoking, then that's always the best version of a scene.

[Sarah Rafferty]

So can we use the can opener scene, which is in the scene?

[Unknown Speaker]

Yes. So the can opener, I think that works. Was a rushed thing, if I recall correctly. We had to get that done. But I think we had that idea as a general, like, let's do this. If it works, then blank. But then we'll get coverage as well. But I think once we saw it up and running, I think we made the decision just to move on and not do the coverage. In fact, I remember many times we would end something. You're not covering this. Nope, we got it.

[Sarah Rafferty]

We talked about that.

[Patrick Adams]

And that would be a point of conflict if I remember sometimes of like, you got. Or did you always get confirmation to do?

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Patrick Adams]

I remember moments where I talked to you and you'd say, I wish we'd covered a scene again, not just about Kevin. Like, moments that were decided to be oners, where you were like, oh, that would have been helpful to be able to cut around that.

[Aaron Korsch]

There's always. Look, there's always pros and cons. And by the way, a oner is when you do a shot in one shot with two people, you don't cut it at all. It's just one shot of a camera. It's just for people to know. And it has a natural feel to it. And if the performances are perfect. But sometimes you can't see the expression on someone's face because you can't be on both person's faces. And sometimes, whatever. But sometimes you always wish you had coverage because you never have to use the coverage. You can always just use the oner. And if you have the coverage, it gives you an option. And also, if you have one point in the middle that you can cut to, you can cut together 50 different takes of the oner.

[Patrick Adams]

Right.

[Aaron Korsch]

If you have no break point, then you have to pick just one. But oftentimes it's awesome. I mean, yeah, it's funny, in the pilot you called me about, I don't know, a year ago or six months ago, you'd watched a pilot on a plane and you said, why does Gabriel sort of flub his line at the end of, like, he goes, why did you scratch off the partner off my door?

[Unknown Speaker]

Right.

[Aaron Korsch]

And he used it both. I'm like, yeah, because you insisted on doing that in the winter, and Gabriel didn't get his lines right in any of the given winners, so we had to use that one. But looking back on it, I wouldn't change it. I love it. It's part of the charm of the scene.

[Patrick Adams]

It's part of the charm of that scene. Yeah, yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

But so some of it came out of necessity, of time. But the can opener scene that was. Gabriel approached you. You were in the cubicle.

[Sarah Rafferty]

I was filing. I was standing up. He sat in my seat.

[Unknown Speaker]

Sat down behind you. Yeah. So you're in the foreground, and we're listening to him talk, and we're watching your expression change, and we're watching him kind of grovel. And it just was a really. And I remember when we shot it, I thought it was awesome, like, the way it played out. And then it just had three acts. Right. Like, so he came, he groveled, and then you guys went off.

[Patrick Adams]

Well, they stood up. No, they stood up and changed positions to get into the mode of whatever they're about to do.

[Aaron Korsch]

And that whole thing was a wonder.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, yeah.

[Patrick Adams]

But what I love about that, which I just rewatched it, so it was the first time I'd actually. We've talked about. Everyone wants to know about the can opener all the time. Obviously you love it. You get that question no matter where you go. But what I loved is I'd forgotten that there's a three, two, one before it.

[Aaron Korsch]

Yeah.

[Patrick Adams]

And so that really contextualize the can opener for me. I was like, wait, what were they literally going to do that they had to count down for? And the can opener was not present for. It just opened up a whole Pandora.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Wait. We need the can opener. We better go get it.

[Patrick Adams]

So we've got to do a three, two, one first, though. No, no, no.

[Aaron Korsch]

You leave. Three to one was scripted. I think you guys just made that up. I pretty sure you, you, you.

[Patrick Adams]

You don't leave to go get the can opener. You go, leave to go.

[Sarah Rafferty]

I say I'll get the can opener. Yeah. Well, I was like, yeah, we need privacy, but we also need the can opener.

[Unknown Speaker]

That's where I was like, but it's not here.

[Patrick Adams]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Aaron Korsch]

Which.

[Patrick Adams]

But it's great now because now you're watching, it's even more complicated. It's not like they just do a weird thing with a can opener. It's timed. It's like an immediate thing that also must be private. But they could have done it in public, and they decide to do it.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Private because they're gonna be such dorks. But it was also like, we don't have time. Like, you have to grovel harder. And he needs the. He needs to do whatever is happening.

[Patrick Adams]

He needs it now.

[Aaron Korsch]

I know we've told this story. We told it on the phone in the thing, but at the ATX Festival. But Kevin calls me after we wrote that episode, and he reads it and he's like, you gotta explain what the can opener was. And I'm like, what are you talking about? He's like, you have to. The audience is gonna wanna know. I'm like, this is one where I didn't. I was not. I was like, no, I don't. And he goes, well, they're gonna be dissatisfied. I'm like, they wanna know. They don't really want to know. They want to want to know. And I was positive I was correct on that one. And I think I said part of the reason we're still talking about the can opener is that we never answered it. And in fact, Kevin was insisting that we tell. And I was so sure that I didn't want to do that that I think it was the next season. Rick Maraghi and I wrote in a whole nother added, like, I'll get the thumbtacks. And there was another reference to the can opener that we were still gonna not explain what it was, so.

[Sarah Rafferty]

But you sort of explained it in a flashback when he grabs it off the waiters. The waiter.

[Aaron Korsch]

We explained where it came from.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Yeah. The origin story.

[Unknown Speaker]

I think my issue was semantics or something about. It was something about logic. I think that's what my issue was in that moment, in that scene. I don't know if I was so aggressively into the explanation of it.

[Aaron Korsch]

No, no, no, no. This is long before you shot that scene. You called me. You wanted me to write with the explanation.

[Patrick Adams]

See, you are just like everybody. You check our inbox of sidebar podcast because it is 95% people wanting to know. Or as you would say, maybe they just want to want to know, but you're just like the rest of us, which is like, you want to know.

[Aaron Korsch]

Yep.

[Patrick Adams]

I, Kevin, I, Patrick, want to know, but I'm now realizing I don't actually need to know.

[Sarah Rafferty]

But what?

[Unknown Speaker]

No, I'm saying something different. I'm saying that what you just said, which was the scene went, 1, 2, 3. I'll get the can opener. But the can opener wasn't there. Right in that moment.

[Patrick Adams]

Whatever they were about to do, they.

[Unknown Speaker]

Couldn'T do unless they were in that other space, which I just realized we.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Were about to do something. We were about to do something that was like, maybe not out here. Like, not here in. In this common area, like, around the corner of. That was just the way I Was playing it like, I don't want anybody to see us.

[Unknown Speaker]

Right, right, right.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Sort of thing.

[Aaron Korsch]

But that was a separate scene from when the one when he like kind of gives you the can opener. That was a later episode. That's the still.

[Unknown Speaker]

I.

[Patrick Adams]

That's one of the stills.

[Unknown Speaker]

No, that's at the end of. Isn't that at the end of the.

[Aaron Korsch]

It is.

[Sarah Rafferty]

It's after the handoff.

[Unknown Speaker]

Is the.

[Sarah Rafferty]

So what is happening is really interesting because you recently.

[Patrick Adams]

I can't believe.

[Aaron Korsch]

See, we're doing this because I didn't answer it. That's why we're having this conversation.

[Patrick Adams]

Right?

[Unknown Speaker]

Yes. But personally still keeps him up at night. That. But I. I just was. Yeah. I remember being there going like, okay.

[Sarah Rafferty]

And it was so fast, though. You're right. Like you. We did two or three of them and then you moved on.

[Unknown Speaker]

And then there's great, like Patrick and. And Gabriel walking towards us. And then you would throw. Spit a line as you were leaving the frame. I can't remember which one. That is like all. And the kind of providence or happy accident of the set. We chose the building. We chose. And then how great it was for the walk and talks because it seemed like it went on forever. And you never felt bored with the space. Maybe it was the curvature and the lights, different things, the background, the blocking. But those oners just seem to work and become. There's a great one where Lewis comes up to Gina right outside her office and they confront each other.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Oh.

[Patrick Adams]

Early on in the movie, as actors, they were so important. And I think for the reason you said, which is like, you're both performing in the same shot. It's that simple. And so for Gabriel and I specifically, we had so many scenes together. And you'd always have this like, okay, I'm on, and now you're on. And so that means when you're on, I'm still doing my thing, but I can relax. And so one person in the scene is like, relax, I'm off camera. I'm delivering the lines to you, and I'm not. And when you put both of us on there, it was like, we are doing the. See it as a play. We are doing the scene together. There is no, you're off and I'm on. And that would create a really important. I don't know, just wake up. And it would always seem to happen at a moment in the episode where it needed to be woken up. Like, we need to move. We need to move this energy along. We need to keep the ball in the Air. And it was always the most rewarding for me because it felt like no one's taking a break here. We're both on and we both have to. To be on at the same time. We both have to like be talking to each other. And if you or I drop the ball, then we have to go back to the beginning and do it again. Like there's. And that's okay.

[Aaron Korsch]

Or you use it.

[Patrick Adams]

Yeah. Yes, yes. Or you.

[Unknown Speaker]

I mean, it's just the. The whole reasoning behind the coverage. In most cases, unless you're at a really pivotal point, the reasoning behind it in television is that the, you know, probably from live coverage of. Of television back in the day or the TVs were too small and you needed to get close ups on people because you couldn't see what they were doing. So.

[Patrick Adams]

Right.

[Unknown Speaker]

It just was more cinematic like that, if you can pull it off. And then what we did, which I think is people walk into their own coverage. So a lot of those would be. Which I kind of was watching Woody Allen's brilliant stuff that he does where he'll do a master and it'll turn into like, I'm thinking Hannah and Her Sisters. There's an amazing scene where it'll turn into the one moment of coverage at the end of the scene when it is important to see what the person is saying. Like, we would do that. We would design those shots.

[Aaron Korsch]

The other thing I'll say is it's not the same. Walk and talk and oner are not the same. Right. A oner means you do the walk and talk in one shot. But Kevin also was instrumental in inserting walk and talks into suits. You would go through the scripts and say, I think this should be a walk and talk. I think that should be a walk and talk. Like, because they were not.

[Patrick Adams]

They were also economical. I mean, they would also take a scene that might have taken three hours and make it an hour and 20 to shoot. Not that that was the reason, but it was a helpful.

[Aaron Korsch]

It was a side benefit. But he did it because he wanted the energy, you know, have the energy of.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah. And also the stress of like looking at the. Looking down the barrel today. Because, you know, we would sometimes we would quite often accomplish a lot at the end of the day having to pull one of those off and.

[Patrick Adams]

Yeah.

[Sarah Rafferty]

And we had the luxury of having Michael Seuss.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Patrick Adams]

Our steady cam operator who was also. Did basically, I think every Steadicam shot.

[Sarah Rafferty]

That we had in suits.

[Aaron Korsch]

I think he did every single episode. Episode.

[Unknown Speaker]

And he was very sus for coming.

[Patrick Adams]

Dr. Seuss, he was very.

[Unknown Speaker]

What he was.

[Aaron Korsch]

He.

[Unknown Speaker]

He contributed a lot.

[Patrick Adams]

God. When he had an idea and he knew how it had to be and someone was telling him to do it differently, it was the best. Because he was just like, nope. You could see it. He'd be like, that's not right. And who knows the show better than the guy who's run a cam the entire show? So you could tell when a new director or even like a deep. It would just like try this stuff. Right? That's not. The camera should be here. It should be over your shoulder. It should be on that. Like he just spoke suits. Like, he understand.

[Unknown Speaker]

He'd finish a shot and he'd throw it off and he'd go like, yeah, shake his head.

[Patrick Adams]

He'd hand it off. He'd shake his head. And you're like, we didn't get it. We didn't get it.

[Unknown Speaker]

There you go.

[Patrick Adams]

One more. Yeah, we need one more.

[Unknown Speaker]

So the next. I'll just do these stills. I'll try to get through them as quickly.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Okay, so this is a photo of. In the pilot. We've got Gerald Tate on the left hand side of the screen. And then we've got the reflection of him facing Harvey. Harvey's not actually in the shot, but he is in the reflection. So he's sort of small in the back on the right, facing off.

[Unknown Speaker]

We talked about this already. Just that this was, to me, a big moment. We were using this glass. This is a practical location, which was amazing. And I.

[Aaron Korsch]

Practical location means it was really in a real building. It's just in a real building, not a set.

[Patrick Adams]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

Shooting in New York. And this is where we were like, okay, we've got something going on.

[Aaron Korsch]

For me, the most. Two iconic scenes from the pilot. Obviously, the biggest one is when Harvey. The interview scene when Harvey hires Mike. But I think, what the. Your balls are in my fist. This scene is what is the first that sets up the second, in my opinion.

[Unknown Speaker]

Right. And it has the tone like, oh, okay. So this thing has got that kind of gravitas, but at the same time sings at the end with that humor and who Harvey is and their little cute.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Cause he says the fire drill is gonna come up and you get to be captain. Blue team captain. My question about this shot, though. You said we're on a practical set, so we're in an actual space that is a real office. Did you know that you were gonna use reflections?

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, yeah, we definitely knew we were gonna use it. But the thing that everyone's always apprehensive about, oh, you can't do this. Cause there's gonna be lights everywhere and we'll see em in the reflection. Which, you know, Jim instead took the challenge and said, we'll figure it out.

[Aaron Korsch]

Jim to know DP on the back.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah. And then we move forward to the LSAT test where Mike Ross is taking a LSAT for another person, and he almost gets caught.

[Aaron Korsch]

This would be. By the way, this scene is more like, if your balls are in my fist is the introduction to Harvey. This is the introduction to Mike. It's basically our two superheroes showing their superpowers. And then they're gonna meet in that interview.

[Unknown Speaker]

Right. So this was. Speaking of moments of fear, this whole sequence with the switching the hat and the.

[Patrick Adams]

In the.

[Unknown Speaker]

In the LSATs. Yeah. I remember there being, like, an ambiguity. Yeah. To this sequence. We're very, very nervous about shooting this. I don't know. Do you remember that or did we probably.

[Patrick Adams]

I don't remember that.

[Unknown Speaker]

As the actor, I. Yeah, we didn't really.

[Aaron Korsch]

No, it was you. You kept coming to me and saying, I don't know why. And I was like, well, let's sit down and rewrite this scene. Shoot it. And I was like, well, then let's. Then let's. This is when we were getting to know each other in the pilot, all during prep, he said, this scene's a problem. And I'm like, well, then let's rewrite it together. Let's sit down and figure it out. And then you would never make time to figure it out. And then it's like the night before. I'm like, God damn it. I've been saying we should rewrite this. And then we figured it out.

[Patrick Adams]

But what do you mean by the ambiguity? What was you being a point of view.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Ish.

[Patrick Adams]

Or what was. You couldn't. What were you talking about?

[Aaron Korsch]

Switching the hat was not in the original thing. Kevin was somehow not convinced that the entirety of the thing would work. And we added in, you know, Mike. I don't know if it was originally written in that Mike would flop the things on the ground so that he couldn't see.

[Patrick Adams]

You're talking about almost the logistics of, like, the selling the fact that I'm tricking this down that they wouldn't be able to catch.

[Aaron Korsch]

Correct.

[Unknown Speaker]

Well, thanks for reminding me that I made it work. Thank you. Yes.

[Aaron Korsch]

It was your brilliance.

[Patrick Adams]

And what you changed maybe was knocking the paper over on the desk and then a switching of a hat in a bathroom or putting the hat on.

[Aaron Korsch]

The other side, you also. Did you also had problems with, like, that. The. That the driver's license. That the guy we were hiring happened to look just like him, and you were.

[Patrick Adams]

You know, there were other problems that were problems.

[Aaron Korsch]

There were a lot of things that, like, people can overthink sometimes. And sometimes it's legit.

[Patrick Adams]

Oh, no, there's.

[Sarah Rafferty]

And sometimes it's legit. What?

[Aaron Korsch]

Sometimes when we think, like, is it convenient that Mike happened to look like the guy was taking the test for. Yeah, it is. But, like, we could have spent 10 minutes of screen time explaining why it was convenient or make it that the guy didn't do it. But it's like, let's just do it.

[Unknown Speaker]

I think that's great. I think it's awesome.

[Aaron Korsch]

You didn't like it?

[Unknown Speaker]

I like it. No, it's awesome. Yeah. Well, it's for another pod.

[Patrick Adams]

This is part one of n series.

[Aaron Korsch]

It never worked.

[Unknown Speaker]

So you took this as my name on the screen.

[Patrick Adams]

I can't believe I didn't put this together. That's great. Kevin Bray's name over my face.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah. In his heart. I'm in Patrick's heart for all of that.

[Patrick Adams]

Forever.

[Unknown Speaker]

All right.

[Sarah Rafferty]

What part of you.

[Unknown Speaker]

So is that enough of an introduction about this, or you want more?

[Sarah Rafferty]

Okay, Kevin, so this photo of Mike Ross that has your name in front of it, what is at the heart of it that you identified with Mike? And did you know that the minute you read the script?

[Unknown Speaker]

I just. Maybe, yeah. Like, yeah, I've always kind of.

[Aaron Korsch]

How do you identify with him? Because you think it's kind of a.

[Unknown Speaker]

Metaphor for me being in the television business. I didn't think that I would ever be in the television business. I mean, I started in music videos. I started in fashion. I started in the art world in New York in the Lower east side. So it was a odd set of occurrences that brought me to this chair. And, you know, this is a loft in Tribeca, which is kind of aspirational circumstance, like, and always having a side hustle. And so I kind of identified with his character quite a bit, and that I was always feeling kind. Yeah, a little bit of frog complex. Being in the corporatization of television and even in the music business. Like, you know, am I really supposed to be here? And my point of view comes from. And even my process comes from a different world. That's not as.

[Aaron Korsch]

Well, Maybe that's another one of our overlap, because I always felt like a fraud when I was in an investment banker. But I'm going to Say, that scene just reminds me. It might have been. One of the first scenes I wrote in this pilot was one of the first lines I wrote. When Trevor says, it's the best hamburger I've ever had. You're like, it's from Monday. That, to me, is just suits in a nutshell. Right. You're basically saying, you're just stoned, you idiot. And just the way real people. I would talk to my friends. I love that.

[Unknown Speaker]

Right, right. Grammy.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Rebecca Scholl.

[Aaron Korsch]

So great.

[Patrick Adams]

I struggle with that scene.

[Unknown Speaker]

I was gonna. I was wondering, right in this moment.

[Patrick Adams]

I love her.

[Unknown Speaker]

Whether I wanted to say it, but this.

[Aaron Korsch]

Why do you hate her?

[Patrick Adams]

Why would you hate Rebecca Scholl? I love her. No, she has that weird. What? She has that weird. She has that line where he goes. That stuff line. What is it? You're on that stuff or you gotta stay away from that stuff. But it's. It's. It comes out of nowhere to me when I'm watching it. Like, it's just too fast. I want to be. And I think constantly with Grammy scenes, I was like, I want more. Like, if we're gonna do it, I want more. I want, like a. I want a deeper connection with this person because she's so important to the character. And so I go back to some old wound in this scene where I'm like, it's just too fast. It's too quick.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, yeah. These were hard ones for me as well.

[Aaron Korsch]

That's why it was always you two against me.

[Patrick Adams]

Started with Rebecca Scholl.

[Unknown Speaker]

Blame Rebecca Scholl, these things. Like, I guess I felt very insecure because I felt like I was supposed to figure this out. And, you know, I was. As a director, I'm supposed to commit this to film these. So this is the sequence where you're in the Waldorf. Yeah, we're in the Ship. Chiltern Hotel, Chilton. And Mike Ross is supposed to be delivering these drugs to this guy, but it's a bit of a sting. And he realizes because he's so bright and he has a photographic memory that these guys are police officers. And I remember this was the moment where Jim Deneau and I butted heads. Do you remember that?

[Patrick Adams]

No.

[Unknown Speaker]

Do you?

[Patrick Adams]

About how to communicate this memory?

[Unknown Speaker]

I said something. I said something snarky, mean. And it was like, this isn't what we planned.

[Patrick Adams]

He said, are you referring to the memory pieces?

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, the memory pieces.

[Patrick Adams]

Seeing the gloves or the Whatever.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I always. I was always like, how are we gonna do it? And again, they kind of go by seamlessly now. But back when we. I was like.

[Aaron Korsch]

Even at the look, I would say if I'm gonna think about the pilot, those flashbacks probably were a little. You wanted to make a big thing out of them. Yeah, and I didn't. Yes, and I didn't. I didn't understand why. And I didn't think you needed them at the time. And now I sort of half agree with the way I felt and half don't. It works.

[Unknown Speaker]

But you.

[Patrick Adams]

Sorry. Sorry. Just to get clear, you mean. Because I struggle with it a bit too. But I also understand, like, you have to show it because it's the key to the whole scene. Like, you have to understand that he is putting together. Wait a minute, the pool's closed. He said, like, all the little pieces, if you don't flash to them, how do you know that your brilliant guy with the mind has put all the pieces together?

[Aaron Korsch]

Or you have to flash to them, probably, but it was a question of, did you have to flash to them in a overly stylized way, in that.

[Patrick Adams]

Weird black and white way?

[Unknown Speaker]

Well, I don't know. I think perhaps if you had been in, like, the kid walks by, like, yes, those things needed to be. I felt more prominent or that you'd be more involved in them. And we just didn't have the real estate to do a scene about the pool being closed or the. You know.

[Patrick Adams]

Well, it speaks to a bigger thing for the whole season, which is, you know, Mike's memory and how we dealt with it and. And how much of it was. Because I know over time it became. Well, this isn't a show about some guy in his tricky memory where he can solve crimes because he can remember or solve cases because he has this great memory. Right. And it feels like this is the beginning of that discussion. He's taking off. Kevin's gone. He's leaving.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Are you gonna get on the same mic with me?

[Patrick Adams]

Kevin has come to the other side of the room. He's sitting with us now.

[Aaron Korsch]

It's so hot in here. Oh, my God. Somebody turned the heat up.

[Patrick Adams]

But it was understandably, it couldn't be the show that wasn't the show we were making. But at the same time, we were in a position where the character did have a memory and we were trying to communicate it. So. Because there's another episode when we're at the. The inside. The Trading place where we do this again. Do you remember what I'm talking about when we're.

[Aaron Korsch]

Oh, God, I'm so terrible at the dishes.

[Patrick Adams]

There's A moment where. Where Mike looks down at the computer and sees, like, the trades happening.

[Aaron Korsch]

Yep, yep, yep.

[Patrick Adams]

It was the only other time we really did this. And you can feel like we're doing it because we've done it, but it also just is not. You know, we talked about when our show falls into the gear and we're like, that suits.

[Aaron Korsch]

Yes.

[Patrick Adams]

You can feel the opposite. You're like, you know, this isn't our show.

[Aaron Korsch]

Yep, yep, yep.

[Unknown Speaker]

It's.

[Patrick Adams]

We're trying to make it work, and it doesn't work.

[Aaron Korsch]

Well, this is the thing. In retrospect, you could have. Rather than show the thing and show the thing, you know, the flashback of when he saw the pool. And you could just show that Mike. His gears are working. And we could have added a line when Harvey says. Harvey asked him, how'd you. Why'd you ask the guy what time it is? He's like, because what kind of a drug dealer, you know, is going to ask what time it is? So he could have said, had, you know, they were cops. And he could have said, because the pool was closed. And I asked, you know, like, could.

[Patrick Adams]

Have just said it.

[Aaron Korsch]

Could have just said it or I'm not even 100% sure. If we didn't say it and we didn't do it. If you really were smart as a viewer and paying attention, you would put it together.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Aaron Korsch]

I don't know.

[Patrick Adams]

Just to tie the knot on it there. Does get to the point where, though, and it's interesting to talk about. We don't have to spend too much time on it, but that we remember you and I having constant discussions, like, is this still a thing or is it not a thing? It seems for a bunch of episodes it went away. And then I remember in this episode with when. When Rachel is where I start dictating the document that I saw very quickly in a dark room, and I remembered it. That to me was like, whoa, whoa. He really does have a. Like, I forgot what a beautiful mind or an amazing mind he has that he can do this thing. So we have that scene, and it reminds us of it, and then it kind of goes away again. And then you and I found this, like, credit card idea where him and Jenny are in bed together at the end.

[Sarah Rafferty]

That was sexy.

[Aaron Korsch]

Jenny also tells Trevor later, like, I memorized your Social Security number because I saw it once when I.

[Patrick Adams]

It's there, but it's like you run the risk of it becoming gimmicky. And we never wanted it to be a gimmick. Right.

[Aaron Korsch]

Well, My feeling of it was this. And again, I do not have a photographic memory, but I would say of anybody. And I'm old now, so my memory is just not what it was in any way, shape or form. But I have always had probably the best memory of anyone I know. And it's not like if you were doing a documentary on me and you filmed every day of my life, that wouldn't come up very often. I'm not solving crimes with it. I'm not doing whatever yet. But most of the movie lines in suits are because some dialogue that's being said makes me remember something. So. So for Mike, I wanted it to be. It's always there. He always has it. It's just not relevant most of the time because he's not just walking through the day announcing the things he.

[Patrick Adams]

All the things he remembers.

[Aaron Korsch]

So it comes up organically when necessary. Sure. And in terms of like, yes, it would be very gimmicky if every week you were just waiting for Mike's memory to kick in. But having said that, I think you probably would have wanted it to be in more. I think there was definitely a chunk of fan.

[Patrick Adams]

Yeah, it's hard maybe when we were shoot shooting it, but now that I'm watching it, I'm seeing the opposite side, which is, you know, but there's a.

[Aaron Korsch]

Chunk of fan that would wishes it was more. It's. It's always like, the fans are always like, look, some fans never want Harvey to ever experience any growth and never want him. They want him to be the Harvey of season one for the whole time.

[Patrick Adams]

Right.

[Aaron Korsch]

I'm not. I don't want to do that. Right. But that's a point of view. It's a legit point of view. Some people never want us to lose a case, ever. Never want us. But. But that's not me. And some people always want every week to have Mike's photographic memory be at the fore. But, you know, you just have to make your choices.

[Patrick Adams]

Right.

[Unknown Speaker]

So this is when Mike accidentally comes into the interview.

[Aaron Korsch]

Scene.

[Unknown Speaker]

Interviews. So again, a really great scene where I think we were really feeling strong. And I mean, it's just a great. The performances are amazing. We see the humor that these guys are gonna bring us as we move forward. I just think it's funny. I was watching a movie called City hall last night.

[Patrick Adams]

Is that where you got the Al Pacino quote?

[Unknown Speaker]

You played Michael Sarazin shot that and looks a lot like this, like really naturalistic lighting. And I just. This scene was just so strong and is strong in Every regard the. The dialogue and the what happens is phenomenal. And then the blocking was as much moving around and kind of changes that happen. It totally made sense. There's nothing, no false moves or inorganic. Like. I don't think.

[Patrick Adams]

Nope, not at all. I love the spin too. I love how we switch seats. I mean, that's written into the scene. But I just think it's. It's such a stroke of brilliance.

[Aaron Korsch]

I want to talk about Kevin's blocking. Blocking for people that don't know is how the characters move in the scene. So before you shoot a scene, you have to make sure you know where your characters are going to move. If they do it differently every time, you can't shoot a consistent scene. So Kevin's blocking often focuses on when the real change in the scene is going to be. And even if it was written in that you guys switched the way he decides when. And we collectively decided when Harvey and Mike switch positions. It's really awesome. I love that. I also love. There's a. It's a different shot when Mike says, I got knocked into a different life. It's like a little bit of a jarring cut. I remember. And a weird angle. And it's because it's an important line. Right. And I love when you. You know, I've been playing hearts. Boom. And I love that scene.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah. And we did in Globally. As we didn't do traditional straight on coverage. We always did these profile. We did these two shots. We did looser coverage at least looking over the stuff. I just think we really tried to make it look a little more cinematic.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Than your typical TV show about love.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah. This is Mike meeting Rachel for the first time. Just. I think we all knew that that popped in that moment.

[Aaron Korsch]

Probably my favorite line in the pilot is I love you. But I'll say this. See that shot where they're standing by the window? Kevin, initially, this is the first time maybe in the whole thing where he wanted to shoot that thing against the wall that was on the other side. And we're like, dude, we're on the 50th floor.

[Patrick Adams]

We are actually on a real floor of a building.

[Aaron Korsch]

Let's shoot out the window. And we had to. Dave Bartis and I had to convince you to do that. I do remember that.

[Patrick Adams]

Do you remember why?

[Unknown Speaker]

No. Oh, I thought you knew.

[Patrick Adams]

No, I don't remember.

[Unknown Speaker]

I don't know. You guys just make. I don't know why I shot that.

[Aaron Korsch]

Do you remember why you have that screenshot? I don't. I don't Know.

[Patrick Adams]

Do you know why I. I don't.

[Aaron Korsch]

Know why you did something when I wasn't there.

[Sarah Rafferty]

That's when Harvey meets.

[Patrick Adams]

Do you know why I screenshotted my army.

[Sarah Rafferty]

He meets his. His private investigator. And she was played by Julie.

[Aaron Korsch]

Julie. Julie Emery.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Emery.

[Aaron Korsch]

Yes. Vanessa was the character's name. And Julianne Emery, who, by the way, I thought was terrific and is terrific actress. Better Call Saul. Just countless things. Fargo. And I think I'm on record of this. Like, look, I thought she was one originally. She was potentially written to be his love interest. Yeah. And the network made us really cut down that scene because they were worried that people were gonna think she was a hooker because of the way the scene was written. And I was like, whoa, for 30 seconds. They might think that's a joke, too.

[Patrick Adams]

That's clear part of it.

[Aaron Korsch]

She's not. But at the time, that was one of the things that really irked me at the time. But we had cut it down. We brought her back once, I think 109, but we refer to her a couple other times in the series. But she's a terrific actress.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah, I think that. Cause it just kind of continued the kind of quality, this scene, the quality of what we were trying to do.

[Patrick Adams]

I want to ask you guys a season question, because we have about 12 minutes here, and I want to. And feel free. There's other ones you find there, Kevin, that you want to wrap up. But I do want to ask, in the timeline of this first season, a, what was it like to have the show premiere and start getting reactions from the world fans that were. The Internet was obviously a thing already. Did it affect how you did your job? Either of you guys did your jobs? Were you paying any attention to it? Did it change the approach? And at what point in the season did we find out that we were going back for a second season? Was it while we were shooting? I don't remember. I think maybe it was towards the end.

[Aaron Korsch]

I'm still waiting.

[Patrick Adams]

You got the pickup.

[Aaron Korsch]

I will say this. It did not affect how I did my job at all. I have never really been concerned with ratings, only because, as I say, I am driven by not wanting to be ashamed in the edit bay, wanting to be proud in the edit bay. So if we had great ratings, but I thought the show was bad, that would almost be worse for me. The only way it did. It did change a little bit my approach with the studio and the network in between seasons one and two, because I was like, okay, now we're a star show, and I Want to get more resources on behalf of the show. We got the pickup during the filming of the finale. I remember that.

[Patrick Adams]

I remember you giving us the news on set. I think I have a video of it, actually.

[Sarah Rafferty]

No way.

[Patrick Adams]

I'll find it.

[Aaron Korsch]

But I don't know if it probably didn't affect you, the ratings didn't affect you.

[Unknown Speaker]

No, I, I.

[Patrick Adams]

So we got to leave set knowing that we were coming back, though, which is a great gift, because a lot of times you leave a show and you say goodbye to this whole family that you've just made, and you're not sure if I'm going to see you again. I mean, see you in this context, basically.

[Aaron Korsch]

1. And once that happened, we. I never ended any season with any doubt that we were coming back, even whether they gave us the official word or not. And then, lucky enough, after season seven, they were like, you're gonna have a 16 episode season eight and a 10 episode season nine. So I had a real knowledge of when we were gonna end the show.

[Unknown Speaker]

I have a question for Patrick.

[Patrick Adams]

What? Oh, God.

[Unknown Speaker]

Why did you so aggressively insist on wearing a bicycle helmet?

[Patrick Adams]

She's got it written down. Fans of the podcast will know this has come up a fair amount. How much did you hate that conversation?

[Unknown Speaker]

Finally, you agreed.

[Patrick Adams]

Agreed that I should take it on it the whole time.

[Unknown Speaker]

No, no.

[Patrick Adams]

In Canada, I. I didn't want to wear it.

[Unknown Speaker]

I know, I know.

[Patrick Adams]

Yeah.

[Aaron Korsch]

To be fair, none of us wanted.

[Patrick Adams]

You to wear it. But what's so funny, Desi? There's episodes now where you see me wearing it and then it just disappears.

[Aaron Korsch]

Yeah.

[Patrick Adams]

Then there's ones where you can tell we just didn't shoot on the street so I wouldn't have to wear it. It just keeps coming and going and coming and going. It's so crazy.

[Aaron Korsch]

One of my favorite things.

[Unknown Speaker]

You were right about the dress shoes. I did start seeing.

[Patrick Adams]

Oh, wait, you and I had a whole.

[Unknown Speaker]

No, I wanted the dress.

[Patrick Adams]

You wanted me to be wearing dress shoes on the bike. And I was like, no. He'd put his dress shoes in his bag and be wearing sneakers. Yeah, you wouldn't. You wouldn't.

[Unknown Speaker]

I think I went around the city and took pictures of business.

[Patrick Adams]

Yeah, you did.

[Aaron Korsch]

I do remember that, but. But one of the things I love is when in the pilot when Harvey says, don't touch that with the bike. If you just, like, leave it alone.

[Patrick Adams]

You just have to do it.

[Aaron Korsch]

I love that.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Patrick Adams]

The bike. Yeah.

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[Sarah Rafferty]

So Kevin, earlier, I feel like you had more to say about the Rachel and Mike chemistry reads. Can we circle back to that?

[Aaron Korsch]

Wait, before we do that, I just want to say the entire Mike Ross bike and the entire Mike Ross bag was Kevin Bray and Harvey Stereo. All of that was Kevin Bray. We did not. There was no bike scripted into the thing. And Kevin, when he was directing, was like, mode of transportation is really important and blah, blah, blah. And it turned out to be awesome. Mike being on the bike and Mike having this bag, it was so iconic. And that was all years of interest.

[Sarah Rafferty]

And Harvey being into music and all those records, burning the CD with his driver.

[Patrick Adams]

But then that was what I was gonna say is by the episode with Ray the driver and the cd, were you taking inspiration from what Kevin had already said?

[Aaron Korsch]

That might have been Ethan Drog, the writer's idea about the cd. But the other thing about the basketballs. We were trying to figure out a house for Hardman in the pilot, which ended up getting cut in the one pilot, but then it was added back in the Netflix thing, and Kevin wanted it to be a certain way and we weren't sure. And we were driving in a van looking for houses. And on the front page of the New York Times real estate section, there was this mansion and the headline was, who lives here? Right? And I was like, this is the house, right? And I start reading the article and it says, the person that lived there, his name was Richard Saul Wurman. I grew up with this kid whose name was Richard, and I knew his Middle name was Saul Wurman. He was our best friend growing up. And I called him. I'm like, Richard. And I knew he had an uncle with the same name. I'm like, is this your uncle's house? And he goes, yeah. And I was like, jesus, what does your uncle do? He founded this TED Talks. And I said, have you ever been in this mansion? And he says, yeah. And he tells me the thing about that mansion is anything you touch in that mansion, he's like, yeah, Bill Clinton gave me that. Or, you know, whatever. That was given to me by Stevie Wonder. Cause he's so famous. So then Kevin and I started talking. We're like, harvey should have famous people's things. And then somehow that was the idea.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Yeah, that's so cool. I can't believe I agreed to put my bare feet up on the desk in this.

[Aaron Korsch]

Ah, I remember that.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Yes, I. I remember you.

[Aaron Korsch]

Cause you can never go back. That's like, you can never go back scene.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Oh, yeah, yeah. And I'm kidding. But it was one of those moments where I was like, really? She's comfortable sitting there. Cause I walked in that room, and you were like, sarah, you're sitting here. And I was like, in Harvey's chair. And you were like, yes. And again, that was like a clue for me about sort of how you were shaping, Participating in shaping who Donna was. But now with the whole feet thing, I'm like, oh, my God, there's my feet out in the world.

[Aaron Korsch]

You have beautiful feet.

[Sarah Rafferty]

No, I do have gorgeous feet. That's my best quality is my feet. I've looked into.

[Aaron Korsch]

We got a oner of those feet.

[Sarah Rafferty]

I think we got a oner of those feet. And I'm thinking, for my only fans account, it's just going to be my feet.

[Patrick Adams]

You know, I have a. I have a nitpick from the season newsstands. Was that. Were we shooting at a newsstand with Harvey and Julie? Do you remember what I'm talking about? There's a whole. There's two scenes where they meet up at a newsstand to like.

[Aaron Korsch]

Yeah, that was in with the theater episode.

[Patrick Adams]

Was that in the script or. I was watching. I was like, did we have to make that out of a. Because we were shooting at a place and we needed a new stance.

[Unknown Speaker]

We probably had to make it.

[Sarah Rafferty]

It.

[Aaron Korsch]

I don't remember.

[Patrick Adams]

Like, did we have to, like it? Was it easier? We were at this location, and we need a place for them to meet. It was. I just. I remember. I don't remember. I was watching it Because I was like, are these outdoor nighttime newsstand meetups a thing in New York? Do you remember? No. Memory.

[Aaron Korsch]

I don't remember. I. I just. I remember writing the scene when Julianne Emory was in it.

[Patrick Adams]

Yeah, but you don't remember deciding it was at a newsstand. Like, was that. No.

[Aaron Korsch]

And that could have been one of those Steve Wakefield things. Put it here. Save us money. That I care.

[Patrick Adams]

Okay, got it.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Well, you were just pointing at me.

[Aaron Korsch]

Well, because I interrupted you. You had asked him something.

[Unknown Speaker]

Oh, yeah. So it basically is the chemistry read, but also the mythology or the history, the story of Megan coming in.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Oh, yeah, tell us.

[Unknown Speaker]

So we had had a very long day of casting. Right.

[Aaron Korsch]

We had submitted and gotten rejected. Other. Another Rachel. Another person to be Rachel. And the network did not.

[Patrick Adams]

One time.

[Aaron Korsch]

One time. And then we were in the process of trying to find Ra. Cause it was a very difficult part because it's hard to be. She's strong and has a strong point of view. And it was hard to be both strong, beautiful and likable. It was a tough. It was almost like. Same difficulty with Gabriel because it was hard to find people that could play both sides of it.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah. So I think at the end of the day, Megan came in and, you know, spectacularly, she got the note on the. On the dress, the costume, because she's, you know, has that spot of style.

[Patrick Adams]

Yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

Isabel Moran or whatever was hot at the time. You know, it was Marnie.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Or did she have a note? Did you guys give her a note about style?

[Unknown Speaker]

I think the casting folks tell what.

[Patrick Adams]

You'Re the just come in looking like a million bucks.

[Unknown Speaker]

Essentially your father owns it. I think it was white. I think we knew her father. No, no, no, no. So she privileged that she was privileged. Yeah, she had all white on, I think, if I recall, because she wore that. Oh, did she work? You remember that in the. In the chemistry reading?

[Aaron Korsch]

No, it's like a white chemistry read. Was. Was later.

[Unknown Speaker]

But I mean, they tell them to wear the same thing because that was.

[Patrick Adams]

The only part I was there for, was the chemistry read, right? Yeah, yeah.

[Unknown Speaker]

So she came in at Tribeca and she read for us and everybody was just done. It's 4:00 in the afternoon. And I was like, did you guys see her? I ran out and got her, brought her back in and I think I said, charm them or some little note. And she came in and she read and we asked her some questions.

[Aaron Korsch]

She thought she did a shitty job. She told me. I remember she thought she blew it and was not going to get a call back. And then she was wrong.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yeah.

[Patrick Adams]

I remember in the chemistry read, it was clear. That was the first time I've. I've mentioned it on the pod where I. Where I got to be inside the room after someone leaves. So I was sitting there watching everybody talk about it.

[Unknown Speaker]

That was the moment. And walked. I was like, who?

[Patrick Adams]

And there was like, well, that's. I mean, I think we're all in agreement. It was very clear that she was, you know, the one to beat at that point. I don't know if we had anyone to read after, but that was a weird moment, being in that room.

[Aaron Korsch]

Well, you mean with the network talking, everybody.

[Patrick Adams]

I was in the room with, like, you know, 13 people, including Wachtel and you guys.

[Aaron Korsch]

But, I mean, it was a difficult role to cast, and I think we knocked it out of the park.

[Sarah Rafferty]

You begged him to cast me, right?

[Unknown Speaker]

I did, yeah.

[Aaron Korsch]

You were like, yeah, no, we've talked about casting you. Right. Bardis didn't want to do it. And I'll say, why, though, Bartis. Dave thought it's a new show, and because Gabriel had recommended you, and it's a thing to have someone and a cast member recommend someone else, and he didn't want to do that. Just because Gabriel recommended it actually put you in a bad position that Gabriel had recommended that. It is true. We went. So Dave was like, listen, I don't think we should do this. It sets a bad precedent. And then it turns out we just auditioned so many people, and Gene and I were both like. I remember talking about it and being like, we have to talk to Dave. This is the woman for the role. And Dave was like, okay, I agree. And then that was it. So your talent won him over.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Oh, now I have to get him to cast me on something new.

[Patrick Adams]

Another job.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Did you guys call him for me?

[Aaron Korsch]

Let's get him on the phone right now.

[Patrick Adams]

Is there anything before we say our goodbyes for this chapter of our conversation that you want to say about season one? Anything that you want to make sure is left on the table here in this discussion?

[Unknown Speaker]

I love you, Aaron.

[Aaron Korsch]

There we go.

[Patrick Adams]

That's healing. Can we get a hug? Can we get a hug on camera? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sarah Rafferty]

I missed it.

[Unknown Speaker]

I'm still right.

[Aaron Korsch]

I mean, I don't know what I would say other than, you know, season one, to me, was a great first chapter. Right. Like, if you really think of each season as a chapter, season one, I couldn't be happier with the way it introduces the show and platform. Season Two. And it kind of ends on what is gonna happen next year. And really, really goes.

[Patrick Adams]

I'm excited to watch the next season.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Yeah.

[Aaron Korsch]

I mean, two of them.

[Patrick Adams]

Well, I started watching when Netflix just skipped me over. I watched the first half, the second season. I couldn't help it.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Oh, really?

[Patrick Adams]

I was very stoked. I was just a fact. I had to be like, no Pat.

[Aaron Korsch]

Of that first episode.

[Patrick Adams]

The first episode, yeah. Where's the money, Karen Blackstone. Crack. I just was like, one into the other.

[Sarah Rafferty]

I remember having a conversation with you when I read that and saying, like, what are you. What are you gonna do? Like, Trevor's there telling Jessica, and you were like, I have no oh, my God idea.

[Aaron Korsch]

All right, I'll say this. I was petrified of that ending.

[Patrick Adams]

At the.

[Aaron Korsch]

At the end of season one, I was so afraid to do it. I was like, what are we gonna do?

[Sarah Rafferty]

I don't know what to do.

[Aaron Korsch]

And John Cowan, one of the key writers, basically said, aaron, you just have to trust we're gonna be able to write our way out of it. Because the only thing I didn't wanna do is say it was a dream or undo it in a cheap way. And I was afraid. And once we were successful in that, I was like, I'm never again gonna not do something because I'm afraid of it. I'm gonna embrace these things, and we're gonna figure our way out of it.

[Patrick Adams]

Such a strong ending. Yeah.

[Aaron Korsch]

And John taught me that. And.

[Sarah Rafferty]

And did he come back for season two?

[Aaron Korsch]

He did. He was there one, two, and three, and then he got a big fox, so he left after three. I tried to get him back whenever I could, but he was just moved on to other things. But he is actually on.

[Patrick Adams]

He's on Suits la.

[Aaron Korsch]

Yeah.

[Patrick Adams]

Oh, lucky you guys. We are so grateful to you. Not only for that was fun changing our lives, but coming in today and. Anything else we want to say?

[Sarah Rafferty]

No, I just want. Love seeing you. I hope we get to see more of each other. It really does feel like family around the dinner table without the dinner. Why didn't you cook? It was so rude.

[Patrick Adams]

Why didn't we cook next time?

[Unknown Speaker]

Well, maybe I'll be on Suits Vegas on the next time.

[Patrick Adams]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's. Let's you and I, we'll pitch that.

[Aaron Korsch]

All right.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Bryce, feels so great to be with you. Thank you so much.

[Patrick Adams]

We love our listeners and we love to hear from you. So if you have any questions at all, please email us@ Sidebar podcasteriusxm.com and if you send us a question as a voice memo, we may even play it on the show.

[Sarah Rafferty]

And if you can, please make sure to leave a review wherever you listen. It's a great way to support our show. Thank you.

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[Sarah Rafferty]

Bye.