Gina Torres

Summary

Sidebar: A Suits Watch Podcast – Episode: Gina Torres

Release Date: November 5, 2024

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Introduction

In this special episode of Sidebar: A Suits Watch Podcast, hosted by Patrick J. Adams (Mike Ross) and Sarah Rafferty (Donna Paulsen), the dynamic duo delves deep into the world of Suits by bringing on a distinguished guest—Gina Torres. Known for her powerful portrayal of Jessica Pearson, Gina joins the hosts to share her experiences, insights, and memorable moments from the hit TV series.

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Welcome and Background of Gina Torres

Patrick J. Adams kicks off the conversation by introducing Gina Torres, highlighting her illustrious career spanning roles in Alias, Firefly, The Matrix series, and more. Gina shares snippets of her early life in the Bronx, her training in opera and jazz as a mezzo-soprano, and her transition into acting.

Gina Torres reflects on her diverse roles, emphasizing her commitment to portraying strong, multifaceted female characters. She remarks:

"I've always played lethal, badass women with a sense of humor and firmly rooted in my femininity."
[03:28]

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Approach to Watching Suits

Patrick and Sarah reveal an intriguing aspect: despite starring together, neither had substantially watched Suits before starting the podcast. Gina confesses she hadn’t been a serious watcher during the show's run due to her busy schedule and commitment to her family.

"I do not like to watch myself. I think, like a lot of other actors, once I have distance on it..."
[04:56]

She further elaborates on the importance of maintaining distance to appreciate the show without being overly critical of her own performance.

---

Life on Set and Co-Parenting

The conversation shifts to the challenges of balancing a demanding filming schedule with parenting. Gina shares heartfelt anecdotes about managing her children’s schooling between Los Angeles and Toronto, emphasizing the importance of consistency and co-parenting with Patrick.

"We created a whole summer camp for them. That's kind of part of the thing."
[10:13]

Sarah and Patrick express their gratitude towards Gina for their co-parenting journey, highlighting the deep bonds formed both on and off the set.

---

Characterization of Jessica Pearson

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around Gina’s portrayal of Jessica Pearson. She delves into her character's complexity, balancing power with femininity without succumbing to traditional masculine traits often expected of powerful women in media.

"I didn't want to sacrifice anything that I had already learned along the way... I was feeling more in my body and more delicious as a woman."
[34:24]

Gina emphasizes that Jessica's strength stems from her inherent femininity, not from adopting masculine behaviors, setting her apart from other strong female characters in television.

---

Memorable Scenes and Challenges

Gina recounts specific challenging scenes, such as the emotional bar confrontation, where she had to navigate between script direction and her instinctual portrayal of Jessica's emotions.

"They wanted me to have this emotional breakdown, and I didn't believe it... I went back to the monitors and explained how I was feeling."
[48:21]

She highlights the importance of staying true to her character's essence, even when faced with conflicting directions from writers and directors.

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Dynamic with Other Characters

Exploring Jessica’s relationships, Gina discusses her mentorship with Harvey Specter (played by Patrick). She portrays Jessica as a strategic chess player, always several steps ahead, facilitating Harvey’s growth while maintaining her dominance in the firm.

"Jessica's job is to not reign him in necessarily. Sometimes she did have to remind him that this was the playing field."
[29:45]

This dynamic underscores the intricate power plays within the firm, showcasing Jessica's ability to balance authority with mentorship.

---

Impact and Success of Suits

The hosts and Gina delve into why Suits has garnered global acclaim and lasting appeal. Gina attributes its success to the aspirational nature of the characters—intelligent, well-dressed, and charismatic—encouraging viewers to emulate their bravery and sophistication.

"Everybody in that show is a superhero in their own way... It gives people permission to dare to be that brave in their own life."
[61:59]

Patrick echoes this sentiment, sharing his experience speaking at the Oxford Union, where young aspiring lawyers drew inspiration from their characters' courage and determination.

---

Audience Engagement and Q&A

The episode features a segment where Gina and the hosts address fan questions. One notable query from Carrie from Fort Myers, Florida asks about Jessica's complex feelings towards Mike Ross. Gina explains the nuanced relationship, emphasizing Jessica's respect for Mike's intellect despite viewing him as a threat to her established world.

"Jessica respects his mind... Unfortunately, you have to die."
[58:38]

This interaction highlights the intricate character dynamics that have captivated audiences worldwide.

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Closing Remarks

As the episode nears its end, Gina expresses her gratitude towards Patrick and Sarah, highlighting the meaningful relationships forged during the show's run. The hosts thank her for her time and invaluable insights, underscoring the profound impact Suits has had on their lives and careers.

"The greatest gift of Suits was the two of you."
[64:44]

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Conclusion

This episode of Sidebar: A Suits Watch Podcast offers an intimate glimpse into Gina Torres’ experiences on Suits, her approach to a complex character, and the enduring legacy of the show. Through candid conversations and memorable anecdotes, listeners gain a deeper appreciation for the artistry and dedication that fueled one of television's most beloved legal dramas.

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Notable Quotes:

• "I do not like to watch myself. I think, like a lot of other actors, once I have distance on it..."
  Gina Torres (04:56)

• "I've always played lethal, badass women with a sense of humor and firmly rooted in my femininity."
  Gina Torres (03:28)

• "Everybody in that show is a superhero in their own way... It gives people permission to dare to be that brave in their own life."
  Gina Torres (61:59)

• "The greatest gift of Suits was the two of you."
  Gina Torres (64:44)

Transcript

[Indiana Jones Narrator]

Uncover one of history's greatest mysteries in Indiana Jones and the Great Circle, a first person single player adventure video game set between the events of Raiders of the Lost Ark and the Last Crusade. The year is 1937. Sinister forces are scouring the globe for the secret to an ancient power connected to the Great Circle. And only one person can stop them. Indiana Jones Adventure calls Indiana Jones and the Great Circle releases on December 9th on Xbox Series X&S Game Pass and PC. Pre Order Indiana Jones and the Great Circle now, read rated T14 Copyright and Trademark 2024 Lucasfilm Ltd. All rights reserved.

[Sara Rafferty]

Rosetta Stone is the most trusted language learning program to truly immerse yourself in the language you want to learn. Available on desktop or as an app. Trusted for 30 years with millions of users and 25 languages offered. I'm kind of obsessed with brain health myself, so I always want to challenge my brain function. So learning a new language is exactly the thing I want to do. And I want to navigate the flea markets in Paris better. So thank you Rosetta Stone. I mean, sorry, merci Rosetta Stone. Don't put off learning a language. There's no better time than right now to get started. Sidebar Suits Watch Podcast listeners can get Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for 50% off visit RosettaStone.com sidebar that's 50% off. Unlimited access to 25 language courses for the rest of your Life. Redeem your 50% [e-mail] Sidebar Today.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Hi, I'm Patrick Adams. You may know me as Mike Ross from the TV series Suits.

[Sara Rafferty]

And I'm Sara Rafferty. You may know me as Donna Paulson on Suits.

[Patrick J. Adams]

This is Sidebar A Suits Rewatch podcast.

[Sara Rafferty]

Or actually a Suits Watch podcast because Patrick and I have never really actually watched the show.

[Patrick J. Adams]

But today we are going to be doing something a little bit different.

[Sara Rafferty]

Something special, something very, very exciting.

[Patrick J. Adams]

We have a dear friend joining us here on the pod. The Boss, the Queen, the one and only Gina Torres. Very excited to have her in the studio. We're so grateful to her and we're excited to share it with all of you. So thanks for tuning in and let's dive in. Okay, well today's a very special day on our Sidebar podcast. We've had technically had an interview, but this is the first time we've really actually been able to prepare for it. Our guest today was born and raised in the Bronx and originally trained to be a singer in opera and jazz. She is a mezzo soprano before becoming an actor. She's appeared in a beloved series and films such as Alias, the Shield, Bones, Gossip Girl, Castle, two Matrix movies, and starred in the cult classic series Firefly. Her performance as the powerful and iconic Jessica Pearson on Suits led to her character's very own spin off series, Pearson and she is currently starring on Fox's hit series 911. Lone Star. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome to the pod, the one, the only, Gina Torres.

[Gina Torres]

Hi, Gina. Yay. Hi, guys. That sounds impressive. It's all listed like that.

[Sara Rafferty]

This is so exciting. Thank you so much for coming here.

[Gina Torres]

Thrilled.

[Sara Rafferty]

So great.

[Gina Torres]

I'm so glad you guys asked me. I'm glad you're doing this, actually.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Where were you coming from today? Are you in Los Angeles full time at the moment? 911 shoots in LA or you're not actually in Texas?

[Gina Torres]

No, we're not in Austin. We actually shoot in la. It's my day off today. And you.

[Sara Rafferty]

And you gave it to us.

[Gina Torres]

I did. Thank you. You know, it had to be done. Couldn't be helped.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Well, obviously, you know what we're doing here. We've started this podcast because Sarah and I were both really interested in rewatching this show that we all made together, which we had never really watched. We found out as we began this process. What would you say your watch rate was of Sue's? Did you watch it?

[Gina Torres]

No. Um, I mean, we were busy. We were. And. And certainly when the shoot season was over, because we were traveling, because we were sort of quite nomadic during all those seasons, it was about packing up our entire family, like my kids, my dogs, my. Like all my stuff and heading back to LA and getting back to my life. And so it. It always felt like I didn't need to watch it. I think I was a little more involved, like the first couple of seasons just so that I knew, like, what was it like, what were we putting out there?

[Patrick J. Adams]

Sure.

[Gina Torres]

Just to get a sense of that, to stay in the pocket. But no, I wasn't a serious watcher.

[Sara Rafferty]

Do you tend to watch things that you're on?

[Gina Torres]

No, no, I do not like to watch myself. I think, like a lot of other actors, once I have distance on it.

[Sara Rafferty]

Oh, me too.

[Gina Torres]

Distance. The distance is really important. Like, I could watch Firefly now because it's been damn near almost 20 years. There are certain things I can watch with more of a sense of humor about myself and the work and instead of looking at every mistake or choice that was not in my control. Why did they choose that take? Why didn't they choose. Why didn't you. That just keeps playing in. In my head while I'm watching it. I cannot get involved with the story. I'm too involved with my choices. If I'm too close to it, once there's distance on it, then I can enjoy the show.

[Sara Rafferty]

And that's what I've discovered in this process with Patrick, is that both of us struggle with watching ourselves too really deeply. Patrick's face is like big eyes, big nods. We can look now with loving eyes.

[Gina Torres]

Or let's say a more loving, more forgiving.

[Sara Rafferty]

I would say some. Some kinder eyes would be.

[Patrick J. Adams]

We're like five episodes in, and we've already had a few tough moments. Moments of life.

[Sara Rafferty]

Wow.

[Patrick J. Adams]

But yes, kinder eyes. Kinder eyes, yes.

[Gina Torres]

Well, yeah, there's, you know, there's a little PTSD that happens when you're. When you give your life over to a show. And there are certain things that still live in your body that. That sort of hide in places that you relive that you're watching. And, you know, I was watching an episode the other day and with my partner, and he said, do you remember any of that? And I said, no, I don't remember the show, per se. I remember the things that made it difficult on the day that we shot this or how that jacket fit or where, like, where I had to hide the mic pack. Like, they're like. But the actual storyline, like, actually. Oh, yeah. Like, I couldn't remember that line. That's. Yeah, no, you know, you just said.

[Sara Rafferty]

And I don't want to get too far away from it, but you talked about, like, that section in our lives with the back and forth and the back and forth. And I just want to ask how it was for you for those years.

[Patrick J. Adams]

You mean back and forth from Toronto? Is that what you're talking about?

[Sara Rafferty]

Yeah, like, from la.

[Gina Torres]

From LA to Toronto, it was. Well, oh, my God, it never got easier. It was a process of getting my daughter Delilah, you know, settled for the first part of her school season for, like, the first six months of school settled and getting ready. And then it would be spring break. And the weeks leading up to spring break meant packing up the house, arranging for our dogs, bingo, pajamas and biscuit martini to make a drive. We found this incredible company because we didn't want to crate them in the plane. And so there were these husband and wife team that would drive them in three days from Los Angeles to Toronto, and we'd say goodbye to them in la. We'd pack everything else up, and then spring break would start here. In la, it was also sort of happening as well in Toronto. We'd get to Toronto, the dogs would arrive the following day. And then when spring break in Toronto was over, Delilah had a whole new class of kids that she would settle herself into there.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Would you get pictures of your dogs on the road trip? Like, at various American, like, national parks?

[Gina Torres]

Absolutely.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Like, in front of. You know what I'm saying? Like the Grand Canyon. Mount Rushmore.

[Gina Torres]

Not Ron Rushmore. No, they missed that one.

[Sara Rafferty]

Patrick, I don't know if you know this, but you did that the first year we were there, and then you helped me do that the second year we were there because I commuted back and forth that first year and Una stayed at home. But then it was really. I had Iris by the second year, and it was time to move the whole surface. Yeah. To move everything. And Patrick, Gina was the one who was, like, just linked arms with me and said, here you go, honey. This is what we're gonna do. And I just wanna say right now, my. I can feel it, the PTSD in your body that you're talking about. I can feel it in my body right now as I'm sitting across from you. I'm kind of welling up. My heart rate is going faster. Like, I don't know what I would have done if you hadn't shown me the way.

[Gina Torres]

No.

[Sara Rafferty]

And thank God we were in that together because Una joined the class that Delilah was joining, and then we continued to do that every year, and they were going back and forth in their LA schools and back and forth in their Toronto schools, and they had each other. And I'm so deeply grateful for that.

[Gina Torres]

Yeah. Thank you. Oh, my goodness. I'm so grateful for you. And here we are still, all these years later. Yeah, we got through that together. We created summer camp.

[Sara Rafferty]

Oh, gosh.

[Gina Torres]

Remember that? We created a whole summer camp for them. Yeah. That's kind of part of the thing. I remember we would have these long conversations of, like, what are we doing? Is this right? Is this okay?

[Sara Rafferty]

Like, are the kids.

[Gina Torres]

Are the kids gonna be okay? And I held fast the belief that they would acquire a skill set and a fortitude that will serve them. And I believe that that is true. I see Delilah be able to. She doesn't have the kind of social anxiety that a lot of kids might go through because she traveled because of those early years. But it was also our commitment to making sure that as much as they had a life in the circus, that was our choice, that we created as much consistency in their lives as possible. Yes. So that our inconsistency didn't affect them in the ways that they weren't ready for, that they didn't deserve. And, I mean, listen, there's still time for that tell all book. That'll hit. We are all weighted with, you know, who knows?

[Patrick J. Adams]

I wish you had been parenting me throughout. I could have used all these lessons. But before we dive, I want to go back a little bit because we've dived right into Suits. But before, I want to sort of take us back, because when Sarah and I began this podcast, we kind of had some really great discussions about what was going on for us before Suits even started. Like, it was a really good kind of warm up to be like, you know, it's 2011, it's the week before you've gotten the audition for Jessica Pearson. And what was a Legal Mind, I guess, back then? Like, what do you remember about, you know, who Gina Torres was at that point? What was going on for you? How was the career? How were you feeling? What sort of things were you looking to do?

[Gina Torres]

I was just coming out of Mommy Fog. Delilah was three, or maybe not quite yet three. When I auditioned for that show, I had made a choice to not leave Los Angeles for work. I would work in two places that. Where we had homes. So I would work in la or I would work in New York, which I did do. I was, you know, everyone's favorite house guest on several different shows. I. I traveled with her, you know, if I could do three days or a week on something.

[Patrick J. Adams]

So you were working.

[Gina Torres]

So I was working. I wasn't doing a. Yeah, I was working, you know, sporadically. And then suits came along, or Illegal mind. The audition for that came along and they said, if it goes, it's going to shoot in New York. Yeah. And I said, great. Yes, they did. Perfect. A little backstory a few months, or maybe it was a previous year. I can't even remember right now, but I had auditioned for another USA show. Covid affairs didn't go my way, but got very, very close and, you know, didn't think too much of it. The Legal Mind audition came along. It's gonna shoot in New York. I was like, if this goes, this is perfect. Cause my husband at the time, Lawrence, said, this will be great. Cause we had wanted to sort of spend more time in New York anyway, our hometown. And I jumped through all the flaming hoops that actors have to jump through and thought, huh, this is interesting. And then they kept it kept going back and forth and kept going back and forth. And I didn't really quite understand why, because usually when it goes back and forth like that, you get notes as an actor, it's like, oh, can she or will she? Or can she tweak?

[Patrick J. Adams]

You mean, it was going back and forth like you had auditioned, but they weren't pulling the trigger on it. Like, you were. Okay, got it.

[Gina Torres]

And I was also far long enough in my career that it was. There are these code words that you use for not. Not telling an actress at a certain level that she's actually auditioning. You're just having meetings. Yeah.

[Patrick J. Adams]

You're just talking. We just want to have a conversation where you read the material in front of us.

[Gina Torres]

Yeah, exactly. And we make a decision and then we can talk about. Right. So I had some meetings.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Do you remember you and I, the day that I think I was there reading with Rachel Zanes? We met. I think it was the first time we met. I mean, not that you would remember. You were there to audition, but I ran into you before you were going in, and I couldn't believe that Gina Torres was there to audition for this show. Like, I was already.

[Gina Torres]

I was having a meeting.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yeah, you were having. Sorry, you weren't auditioning. You were meeting. You were meeting. Because I guess by that point I had already booked it, which so I was already on cloud nine. But then I showed up to this. To this session to read with Rachel's. And Gina Torres was going in for a meeting, and I was like a blubbering child around you. I was like, I didn't want to interrupt you, but at the same time, I was like, I can't leave this waiting room without saying something to her.

[Sara Rafferty]

So, by the way, Gina, this is not the first time he's told that story. Like, this is. This is how formative it is.

[Patrick J. Adams]

I mean, it was really, like, one of the first moments where I got, like, even more like, I was already excited. I'm making a pilot. This is going to be amazing. But then I was like, wait a minute. Gina could be.

[Gina Torres]

What she doing here? Love it. That. That was. In fact, that was my last meeting.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Oh, it was great.

[Gina Torres]

It was. It was my last meeting. And the hold up was. And I do remember you sitting in a chair talking to one of the Rachels, the Rachel that ended up being our Rachel. But I kind of had come in, I was very focused, and I remember exactly what I was wearing, because it was by that time that I had basically said, fuck it. I'm just gonna walk in and I'm just gonna be. Who I believe this woman is. And I had on a black and white wrap, Diane. Yeah. DVF dress and high, high heels. Yeah, you did. And my hair was all, you know, caskadating and. Because one of the holdups was that they thought I was too young to play the part. That a woman in that position.

[Sara Rafferty]

Oh, Aaron talked about that.

[Gina Torres]

Yeah. That a woman in that position wouldn't be as young as I was at the time. And they kept trying to age me. Like, they wanted me to come in, like, in a bun and sort of more restrained and sort of. And I was like, no, no, no.

[Patrick J. Adams]

No, no, no, sir. No, you don't. Some birds are not meant to be caged. No.

[Gina Torres]

So with a little help from the COVID affairs audition, they had already seen me play a character that was in charge.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Got it. Do you remember there being any difference other than, like, the age thing about maybe what was on the page? Like, that you had to overcome. It was like, your idea. Like, no, no, no. I'm just gonna do this my way and show them what this actually is.

[Gina Torres]

I mean, I know Erin was here. You may or may not have spoken of this already, but that character was never meant to be a woman, much less a woman of color. It was written to be an older white man. And so there were still vestiges of that. But, you know, I have to quote Diane Carroll, the great. The late, great Diane Carroll on this. When she spoke of approaching Aaron Spelling about her character on Dynasty, Dominique Devereaux, he was like, well, I don't know how to write for you. And she said, write for a powerful white man. I will take care of the rest. Oh.

[Sara Rafferty]

Oh, gee.

[Gina Torres]

Yeah.

[Sara Rafferty]

Mic drops. Somebody can I take this mic and throw it on the ground?

[Gina Torres]

But.

[Patrick J. Adams]

So by the time the script, what got to you, though, was it already.

[Gina Torres]

It was a woman.

[Patrick J. Adams]

It was a woman.

[Gina Torres]

It was a woman. It was a woman. And then they had auditioned all kinds of women from, you know what? I'm assuming by the time I had my meetings, they had. But it was towards the end, and when I walked into a room, they had made the decision that it would be a black woman. Because one of the rooms that I walked into absolutely had a lot of very accomplished, interesting black actresses that they were considering.

[Patrick J. Adams]

So you find out, you get the part. You're going to New York. Yep, we're all going to New York together. Hopefully to stay in New York. We'll get to that. Post pilot. Obviously, we've talked a lot about the pilot process in this, but what, if anything, you remember about us, like, all getting to New York and the process of shooting this pilot, getting to know each other. Were there things that stuck out to you about the process? I mean, just watching your performance on the show, and I know that it takes some episodes before we get to, you know, see all the depths of this character and see what she does. But right away you had, like, a handle on this character that was sort of absurd. You know, there didn't seem to be much warmup. It was like you understood, you arrived, you understood the assignment.

[Sara Rafferty]

Yeah.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Was that your experience of shooting the pilot, or are you just really good at looking like you understand the assignment, or was it just a walk in the park?

[Gina Torres]

Um, well, I don't know. I think it was a combination of a lot of things. I knew what I wanted to do with her, and there was also a part of me that was incredibly distracted because I had a three year old at home. So. So it seemed to me that it was the perfect job for me at the time because I was number four on the call sheet. I knew I would work about three days a week. Three or four days a week. So the time that I got to, like, hit it, I was all in, all in all the time. And because I didn't have that much screen time, it was easy to do. It was physically easy to get into that space of. It makes no sense for this woman to have the title that she does and just kind of half ass it. There had to be a reason why I was there. There had to be a reason why people spoke of me in, you know, with some fear in their voices. There hadn't. So it was up to me to come up with that reason. So every time I showed up on screen, it had to be an event in my brain.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yeah, well, mission accomplished.

[Gina Torres]

Something.

[Patrick J. Adams]

This show is sponsored by BetterHelp, Sarah. You know, we're going into the holidays, and there's no more important time to talk about gratitude.

[Sara Rafferty]

Look, I was so grateful last week when I was struggling with being away. We were both away on set and we had a nice phone call, and you helped me get reconnected with my gratitude.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yeah. I think it's so important in my life to practice gratitude as much as possible, because sometimes life can get pretty heavy, and it's the quickest way out of that slump. That's why we're so happy that the show is sponsored by BetterHelp. You know, this month is all about gratitude. And, you know, what I want to say to you, Sarah, is thank you. It's been such a pleasure getting to do this with you. And I know we've talked a lot about mental health, but it's really helpful with us both away shooting away from our families to have someone to talk to through it. So I want to say thank you.

[Sara Rafferty]

Oh, thank you, Patrick. I'm so grateful for you too, as you know.

[Patrick J. Adams]

But there is one other person that we don't thank enough, and that is ourselves. Sometimes it's hard to remind ourselves that we're trying our best to make sense out of everything. And in this crazy world, well, that's just not that easy. So here's a reminder to all of you to send some thanks to the people in your life, including yourself. And if you're thinking of starting therapy, please give better help a try. It's entirely online, designed to be convenient, flexible and suited to your schedule. Just fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapist and switch therapists anytime for no additional charge.

[Sara Rafferty]

Let the gratitude flow with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.comsidebarshow today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp H E L P.com Sidebarshow.

[Indiana Jones Narrator]

Uncover one of history's greatest mysteries in Indiana Jones and the Great Circle, a first person single player adventure video game set between the events of Raiders of the Lost Ark and the Last Crusade. The year is 1937. Sinister forces are scouring the globe for the secret to an ancient power connected to the Great Circle. And only one person can stop them. Indiana Jones Adventure calls Indiana Jones and the Great Circle releases on December 9th on Xbox Series X&S Game Pass and PC Pre Order Indiana Jones and the Great circle now rated T14. Copyright and trademark 2024 Lucasfilm Ltd. All rights reserved.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Every day our world gets a little more connected, but a little further apart. But then there are moments that remind us to be more human.

[Sara Rafferty]

Thank you for calling Amica Insurance.

[Indiana Jones Narrator]

Hey, I was just in an accident.

[Gina Torres]

Don't worry, we'll get you taken care of.

[Patrick J. Adams]

At Amika, we understand that looking out for each other isn't new or groundbreaking.

[Gina Torres]

It's human.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Amica empathy is our best policy.

[Sara Rafferty]

I remember when we were in the thick of the having the 3 year olds and the 4 year olds and the 5 year olds at home. It felt like Monday morning in the trailer was the new like TGIF because we had been through a huge weekend and then you go to work at 4:30 in the morning.

[Gina Torres]

Yeah, there you go.

[Sara Rafferty]

4:30 in the morning. You sit down and maybe in our case we were so lucky. Somebody would bring us a coffee, and it was. I would want to cry. Somebody brought me scrambled eggs once, and I was like, oh, my gosh.

[Gina Torres]

Thank you so much. I'm so grateful.

[Sara Rafferty]

I'm sure that I cried. Like, it was so. I have this memory of the pilot and then the first episode after the pilot that there was a lot of energy around what you were wearing. I remember being on set at the pilot and, like, you were being changed. Like, it was really cool pantsuits. The pilot was different from the first three episodes very much. And then Jolie comes in on 104, and we'll get to that. But there was just a lot of energy. And I remember you and I connecting on that. That was one of my first memories of Gina was just like. You're like, here we go. I'm gonna go get changed again. You know what?

[Patrick J. Adams]

Was just to give you some feedback. Gina, too, is like, I know nothing about fashion, as I'm sure you already know. So I've been watching these episodes of being. Look how amazing Gina looks. Because you do in all the early episodes. Episodes. And Sarah, the whole time is like, yes, but the clothes. Like, we're not even there yet. I'm like, what do you mean? These clothes are amazing. Look at these suits. So I've been a little bit of babe in the woods.

[Sara Rafferty]

Well, that's just because Gina can wear anything and make it look insane. Just hold onto your hat, Patrick, because it's like Jessica's going to grow into, like, couture. And it's a big change when you're. Look, those clothes walk you, too, to some degree.

[Gina Torres]

Yeah.

[Sara Rafferty]

So there's a big change. But anyway, what was going on in the pilot? Do you remember this?

[Gina Torres]

What I remember is that there was our costume designer. I think his name was Patrick. Lovely man in New York. Right. For the pilot was great because he mixed it up. I had beautiful skirts. I had blazers. And he got it. Yeah. What a powerful woman would choose to wear. But his color palette, he also felt restricted because he was like, these women don't wear color. So we do the pilot. It's fine. And then we get into the series, and it was just one long parade of. And no offense to Armani, just blue or black Armani suits with a shell.

[Sara Rafferty]

Yes.

[Gina Torres]

And my frustration was that, you know, it was fine. I didn't have a problem with it. At some point, it's like, I still gotta learn my lines. I still gotta sell this scene. You know, I'm gonna make this work. But What I resented was being called in for another hour, fitting for another suit, and, like, don't you know how these fit already? Like, what. What are we doing here? I don't understand. So that was part of my frustration. All the elements were just not fully together yet. And I think it was because they were still trying to figure out. I know for me, probably for you, all our characters, where we really lived, like, where the souls of these characters lived, and how did they realize themselves on the outside? And are we playing with. Are we doing a heightened reality? Are we doing it by the numbers? And nobody had decided that yet. They. So we had to physically. I believe all the departments had to physically catch up with the elevated banter and storytelling that we were engaged in. Somebody finally figured out that we had to look as smart as we were.

[Sara Rafferty]

Yeah.

[Gina Torres]

That we had to make as bold choices on the outside as we were making in the world.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Is there a budgetary thing, too, in that? I mean, I know as we went on. And some of the clothes that you. Again, I know nothing about fashion. I don't know how much these things cost, but I know that we had a wall of purses that I could tell was a serious collection over time, was.

[Sara Rafferty]

Some of them are in our house.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Was there a budgetary. Like, early on in the season, we probably also didn't have access to the same kind of money as a production, so we were having to be creative about ways to make it look like a million dollars if we. You know, if we didn't have the million dollars yet to make us.

[Gina Torres]

I love your use of the royal we.

[Sara Rafferty]

I think they put it all into Harvey.

[Gina Torres]

By the time. I will say, I had a meeting with Jolie, I had a phone call before I actually met her, and she said, well, how do you see this character? And by then, it had already. We'd done a couple of episodes, and it was clear to me what the relationship was between Jessica and Harvey. And I said, well, I'm his mentor. Who do you think taught him how to dress? Mm. Nice. Oh, man.

[Patrick J. Adams]

I love you so much. Oh, my God.

[Gina Torres]

I love you so much.

[Patrick J. Adams]

So good.

[Gina Torres]

So. Okay.

[Sara Rafferty]

And that's the end of our episode. Thank you all for listening.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Thanks for tuning in. That's it.

[Gina Torres]

And then I said, there's no reason for a woman in her position to not wear exactly what she wants to wear because she can afford it, and she has no one to answer to. Jolie said, got it. And that was the beginning.

[Patrick J. Adams]

That's a great thing to bring up. And I think it's like a fun thing to talk about. Just that relationship with Harvey. Harvey is the great closer of this show, and he's the guy who's being all fancy and doing all these things, and then you truly are his mentor. You are the person that has taught him everything that he knows. And yet we don't get to spend nearly as much time with Jessica Pearson, you know, especially in these early episodes. Can you just talk to that relationship a bit like what that was like, what it is to be. You know, Harvey is the lead of the show. You're in charge of the lead. You are always in charge in every single scene.

[Gina Torres]

You know, it's incredibly humbling, I have to say, because it's a lot to try to accomplish in a short period of time, right as you're looking at it. But again, because it's so important and it looms so large, motherhood's like that. And you don't think about it. You just have to do it. You just have to, you know, guide this person as best you can and move them in certain directions that you hope would serve them. And that was Jessica's job, is to not reign him in, necessarily. Well, sometimes she did have to rein him in, but to remind him that this was the playing field. These are your gifts, and this is what needs to happen. And that was always very clear and very laid out in any given episode that I had to do until it got really messy. And then when it got really messy between our two characters. Cause, you know, there were a couple of takeovers. There were a couple of moves in the night. There were a couple like. All these things started happening, and the ultimate betrayal, which is bringing an imposter into my firm. I remember having these conversations with Gabriel because he didn't get it. I said, you have no idea. It's like a teenager. You have no idea how hurtful you're being. You have no idea how painful this is for Jessica that Harvey's doing it. Well, you did. I said, no, no, no, no, no.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Right, right, right.

[Gina Torres]

And so I think that ultimately helped our on screen dynamic, but it just didn't feel very different from what I was doing at home.

[Patrick J. Adams]

It also feels like just as an actor, you had to do so much with ultimately quite little at the beginning. You know, like, there's not a lot of Runway to establish who this person is and the power she has. And it's something that I now, me watching all the episodes, I'm just sort of astonished at everybody's capacity to communicate a lot with Quite a little bit. But for you being the person who has to really establish dominance over this world and you only have sort of a handful of scenes to do it, it's just a remarkable thing to watch you, you know, with, like, the look, you know, staring out a window in a scene, you know, when Harvey says something and you realize that he's, like, playing right into your game plan, and we get to see that look just kind of come over your face. It's the sort of thing that you can't really script. Maybe it's scripted. I'll have to look, but I don't think. I think I saw a number of those moments when I see you understanding, again, the assignment of, like, how can I take this very small scene and show you just how in charge I am and how I'm the one playing the chess game here. And Harvey, as smart as he is, he's just a piece on the chessboard.

[Gina Torres]

Yeah, that was fun. That was fun to play. A lot of those things weren't scripted. A lot of those things kind of came up in the moment, and the scripts were great. The scripts gave me reason and enough inspiration to be able to play with all of that. And Sarah and I talked briefly that still, in all, I don't think, especially in that first season, I don't think the writers. Erin, quite understood what a different kind of woman was being created with Jessica Pearson.

[Sara Rafferty]

Say more, say more, say more.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yeah, I want to hear more about that.

[Gina Torres]

Yeah.

[Patrick J. Adams]

And, like, were you discovering it, too, or you. Is this stuff that you sort of knew right away and you felt like you kind of had to educate, or was it something that was coming to you as you were playing it over the course of the first season?

[Gina Torres]

Well, it was certainly something that was coming to me. Now, I have to sort of reference earlier work in that I've made a really lovely career of playing lethal, badass women. And I've always done it with a sense of humor and pride and also firmly, firmly rooted in my femininity and in the power of my femininity. And so I never felt like I had to sacrifice one for the other. And so often when you're playing, my experience of seeing other women play powerful women is that they choose a harshness or they're directed in that direction or whatever it is, but they feel like they have to pull from their masculine side to be able to make the point, to be able to feel more powerful.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Right.

[Gina Torres]

And by the time I got to Jessica and I was 40, in my 40s, and this woman in particular, just felt like I didn't want to sacrifice anything that I had already learned along the way, that I was feeling more in my body and more delicious as a woman and as a human being. And that I wanted to bring that to the table. I wanted to bring that to Jessica. And the importance in hindsight of doing that is all the years of being in a man's world did not take that from her. If anything, it made her more certain of the choices that she made and where she was sitting in her world and in her life. So that was important to me. Whether I did that consciously or subconsciously or that's just where I was in my life. And I really couldn't overthink it because I had a three year old at home. That's where I was. And so that's what I brought. The entirety of that.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yeah, we've talked a bit about that. I feel like just that meeting of, of where we are in our lives when we play a role, and then suddenly you find yourself playing that role for seven years. There's this like, inevitable parallel where like, wherever you're at in your life has brought you to this moment to play this role. And now you're bringing things to it that maybe you're not even, it's not even fully intentional. It's just like, this is what's going on with me. And if I'm going to be here 15 hours a day, five days a week or whatever, three days a week, I. This is what's coming to this character. And then the writers start picking up on it and now all of a sudden you're kind of away at the races and yeah, they're writing it, but you're also playing it. And so in a sense you're writing it. At the same time, I think there's.

[Sara Rafferty]

Like sometimes a mystical alignment with that. My experience of playing Donna evolved into something that I felt like, oh, I'm learning a lot from her. There's a piece of me of Sarah that's supposed to be developed by this experience. And one of the things to go back to what you were saying too, is also in something as simple as when we had to do press or promotion for the show, there was always, I think, I'm sure for the three of us women series regulars on the show, there was a lot of, at the time especially, these are really strong female characters. How does it feel to play a strong female character? And I felt like that question is a cool question and it was important to see those women on tv, but it almost diminished these women in some way, too, because they were most empowered in that they weren't trying to fit.

[Gina Torres]

Into a man's world and the masters of their universes. I mean, Donna more than anyone, clearly.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Do you guys find that what you're talking about, which is so beautiful to hear about this, like, sort of playing from the feminine side and bringing that power and not having to be a masculine woman in order to succeed in these worlds? Did you feel like that was something that, as you played it, it was really picked up by the writers? Or did you feel like it was a constant push and pull of things that would come out of the writer's room that would be like, oh, no, no, no, you guys. You're going more in that direction. And we really feel like it's this way. Or was it a natural kind of coming together, and would the story and the character progress that way? Or did you kind of have to fight for that along the way?

[Sara Rafferty]

I think in my case, they. You know, we joke about how they. Especially in the first season, they kind of make Donna present, like, she always hears everything, and then she kind of has this omniscient quality. And so when they're giving these, like, concrete pieces, like, this is somebody who knows everything. This is the person who knows exactly who to call. This is a person who has the right relationship to fix this, then that's ultimately supporting that you are the architect of your own life and the master of your own universe so that you can lean further and further into it. And I think that the other elements of the show started to very much support that, you know, not to beat a dead horse, but, like, not the least of which was how we were dressed, because it was so feminine and so powerful.

[Gina Torres]

Yeah, I agree.

[Sara Rafferty]

Did you feel like Patrick was saying, did you feel that there was ever pushing back, like, trying to put you into masculine.

[Gina Torres]

Oh, they left me alone after a while. But.

[Sara Rafferty]

So that implies there was some work to do, though. That implies that there was some.

[Gina Torres]

I think that, again, as the show rolls on, you never really learn that much about Jessica, about who Jessica is. You know, she has the least developed backstory of anyone. So I have to say, just in terms of serving the show, I was more interested once it be. You know, I mean, it became very clear what my job on that show was. And so it wasn't so much about character development for Jessica. Jessica was supporting Harvey and Mike's character development and trying to stay afloat. I mean, it's like chewing press every season. It was, well, what's happening. Lisa. Well, there's, you know, there's an enemy at the gate, so I don't have time to deal with that. There's a fraud in my. Because there's another takeover happening. So it was always about keeping the bigger enemy at bay for Jessica. And I did that with a great deal of style.

[Sara Rafferty]

Yes, with a great deal of style.

[Gina Torres]

I agree. You sure did.

[Sara Rafferty]

And we all could feel who Jessica was, even in the scenes that were about maybe the same thing, you know, the enemy at the gate.

[Gina Torres]

Right.

[Sara Rafferty]

We still could feel who the entirety of Jessica, thanks to Gina Torres playing Jessica. So thanks.

[Gina Torres]

It's always fun when they talk about you if you're not in the scene. That's always fun. I'd read the script and I'm like, okay, they're talking about me. I'm still alive.

[Indiana Jones Narrator]

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[eBay Narrator]

We've all got a thing. For me, it's vintage furniture. And now talking about how I found it on ebay is like my whole personality. Even at 2am when I can't get 19th century sofas off my mind, I'm on ebay for sure. Scrolling my favorite seller's storefront, setting search alerts, and building the watch list of my literal dreams. I know antique lamps aren't everybody's thing, but the best part about ebay is it doesn't matter what you're into. Fashion car parts, trading cards, it's all there. So go find the thing that keeps you up at night. Ebay things people love.

[Patrick J. Adams]

This kind of leads nicely into where we're at in our process of watching, which obviously we're still early, but this episode, Dirty Little Secrets, because it is the first episode where I feel like we got to get a peek under the hood of Jessica Pearson, so to speak. Like, we get to see a bit of a backstory and we get to learn a bit about an old relationship, an old marriage. What do you remember about that episode? And about, you know, after having done I Guess three episodes at that point where you were sort of not getting a lot and having to service this. This other story of Harvey and Mike to see this play out. And how did this story, like, were you happy to see this? Did you feel like it was, you know, a good opportunity to do it? Was it still you had to try and do a lot more with. Not so much. What was it like?

[Gina Torres]

I was intrigued by it. First, I was thrilled to play with Russell Hornsby, a huge fan, had been a huge fan of his for some time. So the fact that I could pretend that we had been married in an alternate universe for a little while was just great. And I remember he and I singing in between setups because he's like a human jukebox. Oh, my God. So that was fun. We do that on set together. As far as the storyline went, I have to honestly say it was like the first time that I felt that what the writers were trying to accomplish and what I saw as viable were very different.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yeah.

[Gina Torres]

Because first of all, it was. And God bless him, it had to have been one of the most convoluted storylines.

[Patrick J. Adams]

The case of it, the Als of it all.

[Gina Torres]

Not so much the case of it, but the fact that I was married in secret. Married and divorced in secret. You know, courted and, like, for the world at large. Like, this woman had no life outside of the office, and yet she managed to be married, have the marriage go badly, and get divorced. It was all a big secret.

[Patrick J. Adams]

And no one knows.

[Gina Torres]

And no one knows, including her, apparently. And that all this time would go by and that I would still have this emotional attachment to the degree that they wanted me to have an emotional attachment to this person that I arguably had not seen for 10 years, at least. So, listen, I've played a freedom fighter in rubber hot pants, you know, I mean, I don't have a problem with, like, making shit up to make it work, to make it all right, you know? But in this case, there was a moment where I think they wanted Jessica to be a different kind of woman than the woman that I had believed her to be.

[Patrick J. Adams]

So interesting.

[Gina Torres]

And that she wasn't sitting at home drinking scotch, thinking about the one that got away. This is a person that she cares deeply about, that she wants to help, that she had a life with. And that was a long time ago.

[Sara Rafferty]

Yeah, yeah.

[Gina Torres]

It was teenagers, you know, like that. The man that she was married to. I'm not shining.

[Sara Rafferty]

Not heartbroken. Not wrenching your heart out over what could have been.

[Gina Torres]

No, exactly. And so there was like, it was tricky when I rewatched it, those PTS moments that we're talking about, like, I'm watching. I'm like, oh, right, that.

[Sara Rafferty]

The bar scene, wasn't it the bar scene.

[Gina Torres]

It was the bar scene that was particularly difficult to shoot because they. The writer that was on set at the time and the director, it seemed like they wanted me to have, like, this emotional breakdown, and I didn't believe it. I didn't believe it. I didn't believe it in the writing. I didn't believe that I could manufacture that to be clear.

[Patrick J. Adams]

A breakdown. This is the scene where, just after Jessica's learned that he has ALS correct self. So he is going to die. So they wanted the breakdown based on that information.

[Gina Torres]

Right.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Like, I'm falling apart here. He's going to die.

[Gina Torres]

Yes. And my take, my instinctual take, had more to do with a general feeling of mortality.

[Sara Rafferty]

Yes.

[Gina Torres]

When someone your age, when someone that's been close to you is dying or dies, and suddenly you realize nothing's promised and life can be incredibly short and you start taking stock about the choices that you make. They're not necessarily about that person. It's about life. It's about your existence. And that's where I went with it. I went to. I'm going to help this person that once meant something to me. And also just wanting to express how shattering that is as a human that this is happening. It wasn't long after that I actually lost somebody that was very close to me that was my age. And it does that to you. It shakes you up.

[Patrick J. Adams]

So interesting that they'd want you to lose it in that scene again, whatever. They. We're not pointing fingers at anybody. We're all in the process of trying to make a TV show. And it's hard. But it's an interesting choice, too, because I hear that and I think Jessica losing it in front of Harvey, you know that part of it, too. Like, the boundaries of what that relationship is, which we're still in episode four, we're realizing that we actually shot these episodes all kind of out of a different order. But wherever we are in the process, that would have seemed an odd choice, too. Like, is Harvey the person that you have. If Jessica were to have a breakdown about anything, is it a thing that happens with Harvey?

[Gina Torres]

That was also part. I'm in a public place, I'm at a bar, and I'm talking with Mind Flirt.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sara Rafferty]

Can you remember what that, like, meeting of the minds was on set? When you are in that location and you have a new director and, you know, all the writers were new to us each time that they showed up. So how did that conversation go?

[Gina Torres]

Well, it had to happen because it was take after take after take of them not getting what they wanted. And anyone that works with me knows that I don't do a lot of takes. I just don't. It's like, tell me. You know, I come in with an idea, I get directed, I'm like, okay, great. I execute that direction. It's not take after take of somebody explaining the scene to me of how I should be feeling.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Right, right.

[Gina Torres]

At which point I got up from the chair and went to the monitors and spoke to whoever was back there and said, what is it? And then explained how I was feeling about it, and then went back to the bar, took my seat and did one more take and we were done.

[Sara Rafferty]

Okay.

[Patrick J. Adams]

But still held your ground. That, like, whatever it is you guys think needs to happen here. I know as the actor who's building this person that we're taking it as far as it can go in that direction like this. We've reached that point. Like you were holding firm to your idea of your instinct, which is if you think it's a breakdown, that's just. That's not what this scene is.

[Gina Torres]

Pretty much.

[Patrick J. Adams]

That's so inspiring.

[Sara Rafferty]

Yes. This is triggering a few core memories for me. First of all, I do remember I was away during this episode, but I do remember coming back and that we had conversations about that. And then cut to many seasons later, I was doing a scene with you, and I remember you were sitting on the couch in Jessica's office. I don't even know what season it was. I do remember who was there. And I was standing there and it was take after take after take for something small. Right. And what I should say, I should preface this with there was a point on our show, and I think this happens on every TV show, where things get sometimes can get very, very managed. Very, very, very managed.

[Gina Torres]

Yes.

[Sara Rafferty]

And it was micromanaged. Yes. And I was doing it and I think it was one line. Just again, try it this way. You know, again, this. Just when they roll and they give you the direction. And I was there with my friend Gina. So as it wasn't time to cut and move on. I remember just body language with you. I took my shoulders and put them down and kind of hung my head like I had a downward facing dog. Just like I'm. And you were like, I think you got up again. Or you called them in. I think you Called the person in, and you were like, what is it? And I wasn't in a place yet in my journey where I could do that for myself.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Me neither.

[Sara Rafferty]

My friend Gina advocated for me, and I was, too. I don't know what I was. Patrick and I are in a process of discovering who the people we were at the time, but I had not developed that piece of me or known that I wanted to develop that piece of me until I was sharing that moment with my friend on set many years into our relationship. And you were like. And no, you know, this is not. This is a time.

[Gina Torres]

Don't make me cry.

[Sara Rafferty]

It's time to say, well, maybe it's a perfect time to suggest Patrick. There's another one of my biggest core memories of suits that I recently made Gina cry at a lady's lunch when I told everybody was that we were in the trailer. It was an early season, and I was just being me. And my friend Gina said, don't talk about my friend like that.

[Indiana Jones Narrator]

You taught me that.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Or that years ago.

[Sara Rafferty]

Was it Gina who did it?

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yes.

[Sara Rafferty]

Yeah.

[Patrick J. Adams]

I think we were at one of our suits, weekend up at the cottage. And I remember being taught that it has never.

[Sara Rafferty]

I use it with my children. I was like, first of all, you were talking about my child, my beloved child. You do not speak of her that way. Whether I'm here or not. Right. And they know it's from you. You know, of course it's. To me, it's copywritten. But it was life changing, and it is related to that time on set, that. The moment. Yes. There's times when we just get on with it, and we're like, yeah, what do you want? Just keep it rolling. I'll try it 10 different ways. Yeah, sure, sure, sure. And then there's the times when it's like, I don't understand why I don't get it. And now I'm just feeling lost. Or like I have. Sometimes it can descend into worse feelings.

[Gina Torres]

Yeah, no, absolutely. I think as actors, we're game to play, and it's fun and it's exciting. And I think that because we are often game, because we want to do our best and we want to serve the piece, that it can get misconstrued and it can lean into disrespect by people who are trying to get something or a performance, or if you're not in on the joke, if you're not in on the process, you start feeling like. Or you start. I'm not gonna say that. You start feeling like it's because you are actually being treated like a sock puppet. Which I believe is what I told the person that was making my friend get smaller and smaller in my eyes. And I said, don't. You can't do that. Mm. You can't do that.

[Sara Rafferty]

I have a specific question about a scene in 104. It's a scene where Jessica is interrogating Lisa. Lisa's character. So I did have a question here about writer, director versus actors. What was being played here? I was really. I watched this scene many times. I loved this scene. I was really intrigued. Really, really intrigued by it. I really leaned in when I watched it. And my question, I guess, to you is, do you think that the writers were intending to have Jessica confront Lisa in a way that revealed Jessica's pain over the infidelity? Or do you think that Jessica was using that trope about infidelity pain kind of strategically as a lawyer in order to break the witness and therefore to serve her client?

[Gina Torres]

I think that was classic Jessica lawyering manipulation. I mean, classic. It's the first time we see it. So it then became sort of classic in terms of her being the chess player that she is. It's the first time we see this woman do the thing. And so I think that's the fun of the scene. I think that's what makes that scene kind of interesting. That makes you kind of lean in. Like, is she still pissed about that thing that happened? Is she, like, where is this coming from? Because when the scene starts, you know, not even sure if she's deposing her or prepping her or if they're actually having an argument. And then you realize, oh, she's trying to prepare her because they're gonna come after her. This is what they do. This is what has to be done. And before that actually happens, there's much said about making sure that we need to know everything that we need to know so that we don't get sideswiped in court. And I think by then, I think Jessica already knows that it's her. It's Lisa. Lisa's holding the peace, and she's gotta get to it. So it's chess playing, and it's also. Yeah, it's using what she knows and getting her to be vulnerable. But it's not coming from I hate you. Yeah, yeah, I'ma take you down it's not coming from that place I'm gonna slide your touch I don't care who.

[Patrick J. Adams]

You are One of my favorite details of this episode is the way that Harvey presents You with the folder, you guys are driving in the car, you open it, and you look at it, and you go, you think, I didn't know about this? And you sort of, very quickly say, this is all in the past. I knew that he was with Lisa before our relationship was over. And you just cool as a cucumber like Harvey. This is old news. Get over it. I'm taking the case back. Essentially, you're done. And then in the very next scene with Quinton, we learn that, in fact, you didn't know that.

[Gina Torres]

Right.

[Patrick J. Adams]

And it's such an interesting quick pivot because you see how fast Jessica is on her feet. Like, she's definitely not giving Harvey any pleasure, or not even pleasure. He wouldn't take pleasure in it. But you're not getting to see the part of me that is reacting to this news.

[Gina Torres]

Right.

[Patrick J. Adams]

That I didn't know. So quickly we see you just push that to the side and go, that's not for you. And then we get to see you in that next scene with Quentin where you actually get to, you know, now Harvey's not around, and we get to see you have a more emotional response to something that would be horrific and horrible to hear. And so that was my favorite part of the episode, is all those little moments where we got to see Jessica be who she was solely with Quentin. Those are two of my favorite scenes. When you're with him in the park, and then when you're with him on the couch towards the end and you have this great I was mad line. That is pure Gina. I was like, there's Gina. That's Gina.

[Gina Torres]

When you get the peek, when you're.

[Sara Rafferty]

Like, there's my friend. There's my friend. Loved the smile.

[Gina Torres]

Yeah. Yeah, I was mad. Yeah.

[Sara Rafferty]

It reminded me of my. Of my friend that I went to Dubai with.

[Gina Torres]

Oh, yeah.

[Sara Rafferty]

Because we had some fun when we did that.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Oh, you guys went to Dubai. That's a whole different podcast.

[Sara Rafferty]

So do we have some fan questions? Do.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Would this be a good time to.

[Sara Rafferty]

Look at some of those?

[Patrick J. Adams]

Carrie from Fort Myers, Florida, said, in general, I'm having a hard time sorting out exactly how Jessica felt about Mike. Such a complex dynamic. What are your thoughts? Tell it like it is. Don't pull any buses.

[Gina Torres]

I'd have a better take on that if we actually spent any time in a room together during that show.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Well, that whole first season, specifically. I mean, I am. It's actually quite funny. Like, every time you enter a room, Mike does whatever he can to get out of it as quickly as Possible he's so overwhelmed by your presence that he can't even be near you for more than a couple of lines of dialogue. But it changes over the course of the season. I mean, obviously, we don't get too far ahead of each other, but we start as soon as Jessica learns what Mike's up to.

[Gina Torres]

They do.

[Patrick J. Adams]

They get a few moments together.

[Gina Torres]

So there's that. It's complicated. You wonder how Jessica would have treated Mike had he not been such a threat to her entire existence. But that is, in fact, the dynamic of the show. She respects his mind. I think that by the time you get to the end of the first season, you know, there's that little. That chess game, that meeting of the minds that we never see, that, you know, that happens that you guys will get to eventually. The only problem she has with Mike is that he's a threat to everything that she's worked so hard for, to everything she's built. Other than that, she thinks you're a great guy. Unfortunately, you have to die.

[Patrick J. Adams]

In Game of Thrones, I'm dead. The episode where Mike brings in his first client with the tennis scene with. We just did it. The tennis scene with Lewis. And Lewis takes him, and Mike ends up bringing in his first client because he gets stoned with him. And we have a moment there. We have a moment where you begin to see, you know, again, you don't know the truth yet. So it's all about to fall apart. But there's a nice moment where you can feel like Jessica's starting to see the smallest seed of a Harvey and Mike. But I guess he is about to burn it all down. This is Angie. Why doesn't Jessica, the managing partner, have an assistant? Will K. Also wants to know that. Where is Jessica's assistant?

[Gina Torres]

I said, why doesn't Jessica have Adonna very early on? And his response was, the entire firm is her, Donna. Lies and propaganda.

[Patrick J. Adams]

She.

[Gina Torres]

It's. She has. We just never saw her. She. You know, who knows? She doesn't need one. That's an excellent.

[Patrick J. Adams]

It's a whole different floor.

[Sara Rafferty]

It's all the paralegals.

[Gina Torres]

It's all the paral. It's everybody. But, yeah, no.

[Sara Rafferty]

Okay. Yeah, Like I said, that was budgetary also.

[Gina Torres]

I'm sure it was. I mean, Norma was imaginary. Norma was.

[Sara Rafferty]

Let's not forget that Norma was ceramic at one point.

[Patrick J. Adams]

And now that the show is what it is and has now had this strange renaissance, obviously, which is sort of so strange and surreal, do you ever think about why is it so successful or do you have any thoughts on what? Like what? Why not only. Why was it successful the first time around? Why does it seem to have a lasting power? Why does it seem to really appeal to audiences all over the world, as I'm sure you've experienced? Experienced like you travel and people all over the globe. What are your thoughts on that? What do you think about Suits? What was it about our show that seems to keep appealing to people over time?

[Gina Torres]

I think it's aspirational. I think the fact that we are. And I've said this, and I've said this before, and I've also talked to other people about it. They love how impossibly smart we are, how impossibly put together we are, how impossibly charming we are, how impossibly well dressed we are. There's something about that that gives people permission to dare to be that brave in their own life, that courageous in their own life, because it goes to what we were saying before. It's like, Harvey's not the only superhero in that show. You know, we learned that. We learned that later. But everybody in that show is a superhero in their own way. I mean, I hear from young women all the time, and I also hear from young men, but specifically young women who have said so often to me, I've got a meeting. And I'm watching Suits because I'm watching Jessica Pearson. I'm trying to get my Jessica Pearson on. I'm trying to get my, you know. And they draw from. They draw from. Yeah, the audacious feeling that we can do whatever we want to. Because we can. I mean, that's what it is.

[Patrick J. Adams]

So funny you say that. I just came. I spoke at the Oxford Union this past weekend here in the UK to, like, 400 students now at Oxford. So they're all, you know, still quite young. And you just nailed it on the head. It's absolutely pure aspiration. Every single one of the most of the people in the audience, they're not theater students or acting students. They're all lawyers. They're all studying to be lawyers. And they are all so fired up by our show and these characters because they're right at that point in their life when they're like, I want that courage. I want to be that brave. I want to be that bold. And I think you're absolutely right. I think I can see that now. That's. That's what's firing on all cylinders for them.

[Sara Rafferty]

Oh, I love that.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Are there any other fan questions? I think that was it. I think we got Them. And I also want to be very mindful of your time. Gina, we're so grateful to you for coming in today to talk about this. You know, I will speak for myself. You were my boss on this show, and to hear you talk about your approach does not surprise me. And it reminds me of, like, what it felt like to have you on set and just take all my cues from, like, I want to do it like she does it. Like, that's how this is supposed to go. So thank you so, so much for being here today. We really appreciate it. Is there anything else that you want to say? You've got a microphone and we're talking suits. Is there any other thing that you have to say or you want to talk about or, you know, hopefully you'll come back and chat with us again sometime soon. But is there anything else you want to.

[Gina Torres]

Just that it was a pleasure to spend time with you guys and that really the greatest gift of suits was the two of you.

[Sara Rafferty]

Love you so much.

[Gina Torres]

Really was. And thank you so much for, like, what you've said and the kindness. And that means a lot, you know, just trying to work and have a good time while you're working. And it was never my intention other than to continue to have a good time while we're working. So I'm glad that worked out.

[Sara Rafferty]

And thank you for co parenting my children with me.

[Gina Torres]

Thank you for coparent journey.

[Sara Rafferty]

I love you. I love you, my friend.

[Gina Torres]

I love you, too.

[Sara Rafferty]

Thank you.

[Patrick J. Adams]

I need to be driven across the country in the next couple of weeks. Can I get that dog driver's number?

[Gina Torres]

Absolutely, absolutely. Except that they have to take pictures of you and send them to me.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Okay. Well, we want to thank you so much, Gina Torres, for joining us. What an amazing conversation. And just a reminder that we do want to hear from all of you out there. So if you have any questions, thoughts, or ideas of other things you'd like to hear from us on the pod, please send your emails to suits Rewatch Gmail.com. if you want to record an audio clip of the question, go for it. Then we can play it on the show. Thank you guys so much for another great chat. Love you both and we'll see you next week.

[Sara Rafferty]

Love you.

[Gina Torres]

Love you, Pat.

[Sara Rafferty]

See you next week. Love you. Sidebar is produced by Sarah Rafferty, Patrick J. Adams and SiriusXM Media. Our senior producer is Kimi Gregory. Our producer and researcher is Christian Schrader. Our sound engineer is Alex Gonzalez, and our audio mix is by Eduardo Perez. Our music is by Brendan Burns and our Our executive producers are Cody Fisher and Colin Anderson.

[Patrick J. Adams]

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[Sara Rafferty]

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