Identity Crisis

Summary

Sidebar: A Suits Watch Podcast - Episode Summary

Episode Title: Identity Crisis
Release Date: December 17, 2024
Hosts: Patrick J. Adams (Mike Ross) and Sarah Rafferty (Donna Paulsen)
Podcast: Sidebar: A Suits Watch Podcast
Description:
Join Patrick J. Adams and Sarah Rafferty as they delve into Season 1, Episode 8 of “Suits,” exploring character developments, plot intricacies, and behind-the-scenes insights. Whether you're a die-hard fan or new to the series, this episode offers a comprehensive analysis of “Identity Crisis.”

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Episode Overview

"Identity Crisis," written by Ethan Drogan and directed by Norberto Barba, originally aired on August 11, 2011. In this pivotal episode, Harvey Specter (played by Gabriel Macht) and Lewis Litt (Rick Hoffman) team up to protect their charity client, Lucille (Paula Newsom), who is embroiled in an embezzlement scandal. Simultaneously, Mike Ross (Patrick J. Adams) finds himself entangled in a family dispute that threatens to expose his secret as a fraudster working at Pearson Hardman.

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Key Discussions and Insights

1. Character Development: The Evolution of Lewis Litt

Sarah Rafferty begins by expressing her struggle with the episode's complexity, particularly highlighting Lewis Litt's (Rick Hoffman) character arc.

Sarah Rafferty ([08:21]):
"The case was deeply convoluted... but the highlight was how much Lewis and Harvey we got."

Patrick agrees, emphasizing the transformation of Lewis from a comedic buffoon to a more layered character.

Patrick J. Adams ([11:12]):
"Rick is so committed to truth telling and nuance... we develop empathy for Lewis while he is going full on douchebag."

This nuanced portrayal allows audiences to see Lewis's vulnerabilities and motivations, deepening his character beyond initial perceptions.

2. Plot Analysis: Unraveling the Case

The hosts dissect the main plot points, discussing the deposition of Elliot Perkins and his subsequent death.

Sarah Rafferty ([27:08]):
"Who did what to who? I'm already confused."

Patrick elaborates on the challenges of following intricate storylines, drawing parallels to real-life complexities.

Patrick J. Adams ([27:24]):
"This is a moment that probably never gets answered... it's really about the intricate backstory."

3. Behind-the-Scenes Stories: Interactions with Guest Stars

Patrick and Sarah share anecdotes about working with guest stars like Tim Russ and Bruce Altman, highlighting their contributions to the episode's depth.

Sarah Rafferty ([25:19]):
"Meeting Tim Russ was like a different kind of starstruck moment for me."

Patrick J. Adams ([32:05]):
"Bruce Altman brought an incredible depth to his role as Maslow."

4. Themes and Symbolism: Delayed Gratification and Empathy

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around the themes of delayed gratification and empathy, particularly through the characters of Harvey, Lewis, and Mike.

Patrick J. Adams ([27:29]):
"I think we're learning to delay our gratification."

Sarah Rafferty ([50:14]):
"Be like Mike by drawing, seeing different ways, by caring."

These themes underscore the characters' personal growth and their evolving dynamics within the firm.

5. Notable Scenes and Performances: Rick Hoffman's Brilliance

Both hosts laud Rick Hoffman's performance, noting his ability to infuse emotional depth into Lewis Litt.

Sarah Rafferty ([54:30]):
"Rick brings the most heartbreaking vulnerability to this scene."

Patrick J. Adams ([63:56]):
"This was just an incredible Rick Hoffman,... he's a gift to this show."

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Sarah Rafferty ([08:21]):
  "I just was not vibing with it as much as I have... but the highlight was how much Louis we get."

• Patrick J. Adams ([11:12]):
  "We get to develop empathy for Lewis while he is going full on douchebag."

• Sarah Rafferty ([43:04]):
  "He is trying so hard not to be outdone by Harvey that he forgot gets to bring his humanity."

• Patrick J. Adams ([20:48]):
  "We should make June 3rd, 1997 a special holiday."

• Sarah Rafferty ([63:07]):
  "What I loved most about this episode was our friend Rick and just what a teacher he is."

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Conclusions and Takeaways

Patrick and Sarah conclude the episode by reflecting on the strengths and weaknesses of "Identity Crisis." They applaud the show's ability to blend intricate legal drama with deep character studies, particularly lauding Rick Hoffman's portrayal of Lewis Litt. Despite initial confusion with the plot's complexity, the hosts recognize the emotional resonance and character growth that make the episode impactful.

Patrick J. Adams ([63:56]):
"It's all about what a gift Rick is to this show."

Sarah Rafferty ([63:56]):
"Lewis Litt just runs away with it. Breaks our hearts, makes us laugh, makes us cry."

The episode underscores the importance of character development and the delicate balance of intertwining plotlines, elements that Patrick and Sarah believe are executed masterfully in "Identity Crisis."

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Final Thoughts

"Identity Crisis" serves as a testament to "Suits" ability to craft multifaceted characters and compelling storylines. Patrick J. Adams and Sarah Rafferty provide listeners with an in-depth analysis that not only dissects the episode but also offers personal insights from their experiences on set. Their appreciation for the nuanced performances and thoughtful writing shines through, making this summary a valuable resource for both fans and newcomers to the series.

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Note: This summary intentionally excludes advertisements, introductions, and outros to focus solely on the content-rich discussions between Patrick and Sarah.

Transcript

[Patrick J. Adams]

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[Sarah Rafferty]

When you learn French, where are you gonna go first?

[Patrick J. Adams]

Listen, I'm gonna go back to Paris, and the first thing I'm gonna do with my kids with my new facility in French is I'm gonna take them to all the flea markets, and then I'm gonna order all the things on all the menus at all the restaurants. Perfectly.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Who would you gift a lifetime membership to?

[Patrick J. Adams]

I'd gift it to you. I want you to come to Paris with me.

[Sarah Rafferty]

I need it. Please gift it to me.

[Patrick J. Adams]

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[Sarah Rafferty]

The San Francisco treat. Hi, everyone. Hi. Hi, everyone.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Hi, everyone.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Sidebar. This is a Suits Watch podcast.

[Patrick J. Adams]

My name is Patrick Adams, and I'm Sarah Rafferty. And we were both on Suits, but we never really watched it until now.

[Sarah Rafferty]

And this week, we watched season one, episode eight, Identity Crisis. But before we dive in, how are you, Patrick? I just want to do a check in with you.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Who are you? I'm sad that we can't do, like, the finger. Like, we can't finger.

[Sarah Rafferty]

We can't physically touch each other. That's what I meant this week.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Like, we can't. Boop.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Right? Because we are in different states. Different. Different states in the United States. Are we in different states? Different spiritual states, different states of consciousness?

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Sarah Rafferty]

I don't think so. I think we're on the same plane there.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yeah. Yes.

[Sarah Rafferty]

You know what?

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yes. I don't. Maybe.

[Sarah Rafferty]

I don't want to assume.

[Patrick J. Adams]

I'm gonna say yes. Anne.

[Sarah Rafferty]

I don't wanna assume.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Okay. Yes. Anne, all day long, I have something I wanna tell you.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Okay, tell me things.

[Patrick J. Adams]

So all the good things happen in my bathtub.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Okay.

[Patrick J. Adams]

All my thinking happens in the bathtub. This week I felt so overwhelmed that sometimes in the middle of the day, I would get in the bathtub. I think I told you this. That on the ridge of my bathtub, I put my computer and my papers and my water. Your office. It's your wet office. It's my office. It' I'm talking to Charlton on the phone. I'm talking to my lawyer on the phone. I was like, you guys, I'm in the bathtub. Like, it just is. But this is how I regulate my nervous system, so you're welcome. But I'm in there, and I'm thinking about last week's conversation. I think this was, like, right after we had this conversation. And you are like, we need to find something for nitpick. And you were like, it needs to have kind of like a legal pun in it. And I found a 17th century word.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Go. Please.

[Patrick J. Adams]

The etymology. It's from Latin.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Yes.

[Patrick J. Adams]

This is a word that was frequently used in legal documents, and it's associated with subtle distinctions or verbal niceties or a petty objection. It's a great word.

[Sarah Rafferty]

A petty objection. That sounds. Story of my life. What do we got?

[Patrick J. Adams]

It's a quibble. It's a quibble.

[Sarah Rafferty]

A quibble. That's a legal word. Quibble.

[Patrick J. Adams]

It has legal origins from the 17th century.

[Sarah Rafferty]

You remember, I got. Because I got quibbles for days.

[Patrick J. Adams]

I think it's a good way to go about the nitpicks, because quibble is a word like bubble.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Like, sounds friendlier.

[Patrick J. Adams]

It's. It's light. So I think a quibble, it's a little effervescent. That's how we can address the things we want to nitpick. We're just gonna do a little quibble.

[Sarah Rafferty]

What if my quibbles are real intense?

[Patrick J. Adams]

We use the edit machine.

[Sarah Rafferty]

A hard, hard quibble. A tough quibble.

[Patrick J. Adams]

A quabble.

[Sarah Rafferty]

A quabble. Perfect.

[Patrick J. Adams]

You say quibble, I say quabble.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Oh, God. All right, should we do this? Can we get into the brief?

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yeah, let's get into the brief.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Today we're breaking down. Season 1, Episode 8 Identity Crisis this episode was written by Ethan Drogan and directed by Norberto Barba. It originally aired on Thursday, August 11, 2011.

[Patrick J. Adams]

And in this episode, Harvey and Lewis team up to protect their charity client who's dealing with an embez. Meanwhile, Mike helps untangle a family Scuffle that could bring his secret to light.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Some quick fast facts from Kiki, our firm's best researcher. Shoot dates June 23rd to July 4th, 2011. It was on June 23rd, the first day of shooting, that our show premiered.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yes, fun fact.

[Sarah Rafferty]

So our show is now in the world as we're making this episode.

[Patrick J. Adams]

So around that time, we had some reviews on our first episode. And there's one that our firm's best researcher, Kristin found. And it's from our friend Jarrett Weisselman, who wrote for Page Six at the time. And Patrick, here's what he said. Bringing this dynamic new character to life is the endlessly charming Patrick J. Adams. Someone who better get used to seeing his mug emblazoned on posters everywhere because, like suits, I suspect we'll be watching him for years to come. Patrick, did you get used to that?

[Sarah Rafferty]

I did not, in fact get used to that fun fact.

[Patrick J. Adams]

But Jarrett was just such a joy best the whole series.

[Sarah Rafferty]

He remains the best. He is the best and was always such a champion of the show. So, big shout out to Jared. Thank you. Did you read reviews? Were you reading reviews? That's funny that we just started with a review read.

[Patrick J. Adams]

But no, I, I, no, I'm a, I'm a not reading reviews, but I, I can't remember very well. I think if these came. Look, I wasn't as attached to my phone. We just weren't using. I didn't have an iPhone yet. Like we weren't plugged in in the way that we are now, which was kind of great. Life was more analog. So I think maybe when they would email us reviews, maybe I would look at them sometimes. Not always though.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Or page you reviews or sometimes fax you some reviews.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Oh yeah, fax to the reviews we were faxing.

[Sarah Rafferty]

You and I were faxing non stop back in the day.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Somebody just told me that Dolly Parton, the way that you communicate with her is through facts. I don't know if that's true. Edit machine. Take this out. I don't want to be.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Doesn't matter if it's true. It feels true. Yeah, that's what's important.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yeah. So were you reading them?

[Sarah Rafferty]

I think I would say that I don't, but that I probably did. I probably what I do is I poke around again. I want to take the temperature. So I'd poke around and then as soon as I saw something mean, I'd. I'd close my computer and run away and do something else.

[Patrick J. Adams]

That's.

[Sarah Rafferty]

That's what I was doing.

[Patrick J. Adams]

That's really smart. I just want you to know that we got a little note here. This is kind of my dream come true, to have Kristen just pop up in my head and go, yep, that's definitely true. She just. While we were talking, she was like, yeah, Dolly gets faxes. The end.

[Sarah Rafferty]

All right, let's get into this. Some opening statements about our episode today. Identity crisis. Look, it's complicated coming into this one because I struggled with this episode. I'll just say that I just was not. I just was not vibing with it as much as I have. Like last week's episode, for example. Obviously, we both were really taken with that, and I was like, do I just focus on only the positive and just sort of pretend that I love this episode for all the positive things of which there are many? Or am I just honest and do we come into this and you. You allow me to at times question what's going on or try and figure out why it's not working for me?

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yeah.

[Sarah Rafferty]

So my opening statement here is that I'm going to try and walk that line finally and sort of discover, because it could very well just be my mood as much as anything and watching the episode this week. But I want this to be a safe space for all of it. The case I struggled with. It was deeply convoluted. I had a hard time wrapping my head around parts of it. I had to rewind multiple times to sort of figure out what was going on. I was left wanting more of what we discovered in the last few episodes, which was like, the case kind of didn't matter. And I just wanted to know these people and see the stakes for them. As long as I understood the stakes for them, then I was good. For some reason, that wasn't clicking as well in this episode, other than, and this is the highlight of the episode, is how much Louis we get and how much Lewis and Harvey we got. And anytime they were together and they were doing their thing, whether it be fighting or getting along and figuring it out, I was totally on board and loved watching it and could have watched that forever. Some of the other stuff, including a lot of Mike stuff, I just. I just was like, I don't want to watch. I want to skip to more. More Harvey and Lewis. So we'll get into it. I hope no one takes offense, and I hope that I can find a way to walk the tightrope here.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Well, maybe you just needed to take a nap, have a snack, watch Otto Lenghi make you a shakshuka on a cooking show, and Then just regroup. But you didn't have time to do that, so I'm here for you. I'm going to hold the space, and maybe sometimes I'm going to. Huh, Here's a legal word. Be a devil' advocate. I want to be a little devil today, but in that.

[Sarah Rafferty]

In this case, I'm being the devil. And your devil's the nicest.

[Patrick J. Adams]

No, but mine's the cut.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Fighting my devil.

[Patrick J. Adams]

There's all kinds of devils. I'm going to be devilishly devil. Y. I don't know. So listen, while watching this episode, I got a little bit worried about my personal aptitude in following storylines. So I'm not saying that I shouldn't be worried about that, because there's a lot of factors in our lives that cause a kind of deterioration in those skill sets. But I am relieved to hear you address that. What I see here is that Suits is still playing and growing into what it is. And I think out of the gate, there are two very ambitious setups for two storylines that are happily, incredibly populated by, again, an unbelievable guest cast. And we'll get into that. But I think what this episode does really well is that it has a lot of heart, which it leads me to the fact that this is a great Lewis Litt episode, but it's great in a new way, not in the buffoon way that we were originally celebrating. What is happening here is that, as you know, Rick is so. Can you change your face?

[Sarah Rafferty]

I'm listening. This that you have to keep in. I just want to show you what you were doing. Can you keep your. Can you change your face.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Right as you said that?

[Sarah Rafferty]

I took a picture of it.

[Patrick J. Adams]

So were you on the same place as me? I was like, I think I'm murdering him. He's dying a slow death. Oh, my God. Okay. I came to the same conclusion that you did, that this is a great Lewis Litt episode. And what's happening is that, as we know, Rick is so committed to truth telling and nuance, and he never even has a whiff of needing his character to be liked, which I think is really, really magical. And because of that, we get to develop empathy for Lewis while he is going full on douchebag. It makes me want to, like, lean forward and clutch my heart and just say, what happened to you? Who hurt you? You know? And sometimes it's super funny, and sometimes it's just so human. It hurts a little bit. A little bit.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Yeah. He's really making a lot of bad decisions in this episode, but it's so fun to watch Rick play somebody making bad decisions.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Cause it's so good. And so I want to dive deep into that.

[Sarah Rafferty]

No, let's get into it.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Okay.

[Sarah Rafferty]

How does our episode start, Sarah?

[Patrick J. Adams]

So Jessica and Harvey visit their client Lucille, who's played by Paula Newsom, and they are helping get back the money that was embezzled from her nonprofit stable shelters. And then at Pearson Hardman, Rachel and Mike do some flirting before they're interrupted by Lewis. What do you remember from that? Actually, I wish we were surprised.

[Sarah Rafferty]

This is. I'm already at the point where, like, I don't want to start with quibbles. I want to start with love, start.

[Patrick J. Adams]

With quibbles, start with quabbles.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Quabbles.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Start with quibbles, start with bubbles.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Well, first of all, no, no. I'll start with a strong show. I like this scene at the beginning. Paula Newsom's amazing. How lucky are we to have her? It's fun to watch Harvey and Jessica, like, in a. In an environment that's not the office and hard hats, and they're doing a good thing.

[Patrick J. Adams]

And, like, did you see Harvey walking in was just like, oh, I can't. I. Like, he was so annoyed that it was.

[Sarah Rafferty]

You know what? Screw that guy. How would he look good in a hard hat? Like, nobody looks cool in a hard hat.

[Patrick J. Adams]

You're kind of. Louis. You're on that journey.

[Sarah Rafferty]

I'm over there having to wear this gd, this bike helmet all the time. I look like a. The. The. I look like such a dork. And this guy puts on a hard hat, and. And he still looks like a stupid.

[Patrick J. Adams]

But he had this moment as his character Jessica is just powering ahead, feeling totally comfortable in a construction zone. And Harvey's a little bit like, oh, God, where do I walk so my shoes don't get dirty? This is annoying. It's loud. Mm. Like, it was funny.

[Sarah Rafferty]

You do this great thing, which I appreciate, because I think I get so frustrated at how Gabriel just is so cool all the time, no matter what. But because you've been friends with him long enough, you, like, have the ability to see the dork in 1993. And I don't see it still. I'm just like. I'm like, no, he's still just effortlessly cool all the time.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Oh, we'll get to it. There are some scenes that are coming up where he plays it so boyishly. I just love it. But go. Go on. Go on. Tell me about this scene with. With Mike and Rachel. Did we get a tmi? From Rachel, maybe.

[Sarah Rafferty]

We had a lot of. It's a very we die. And I'm. I was trying to figure out against a bit of a quibble. I'm like, why. Why are we starting this way? And I'm like, oh, I guess we ended the episode with a bit of a sexy moment between the two of them last week. And so we want to pick up there a bit. But again, the episode, there's no. There's no Runway in this episode to explore that any further. And so it felt a little jammed into this episode to start us with this, you know, information about her losing her virginity in Greece.

[Patrick J. Adams]

You know, what I think we decided was that, like, having a sexy bit has to be like, oops, it's a sexy bit. It's not overtly trying to be a sexy bit.

[Sarah Rafferty]

It's just over sexy. Yeah, it felt a little overt. Like you have to sort of trip into them and have them. I don't know. It just. It felt like it felt overt. That's the perfect.

[Patrick J. Adams]

But I love that Lewis pops into it and ruins it with this amazing.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Moment, but saves the scene because he's, again, so funny. That breath thing he does in this, it was like.

[Patrick J. Adams]

It was so funny. I watched it over and over and over again. And that is the perfect example of Rick, like, not being afraid to be unlikable, like, for two seconds. Lewis Litt is absolutely, like, scratching his nails on the chalkboard. Like, you want to punch that guy. And Rick just leans in, in the.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Effort, in the hope that Rick will one day come and join us on this. Can we please, like, make a log of all these moments along the way, this being one of them, so we can play them and I can just go, where on earth did you get this idea? Because it's not in the script. There's no snorting reference or breathing reference in the script. He's totally on the fly coming up with this stuff. And there's, like, a ton of them in this episode.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Well, he's the king of figuring out an interesting moment before, like, what is he coming to?

[Sarah Rafferty]

He's taking a line that you would normally. And it's something to this day that I. You know, now that we've been watching suits and I'm. I'm shooting this new thing here, I'm actually thinking about it all the time on set because I have fewer lines than I would have had on Suits doing this thing that I'm doing right now, and. And I want. And I want to make. I want to make them Memorable. I want to do something with him. And I think of Rick's performance and how he. How he could take a line that on the page would just be whatever. He would do it, and he could do it great and say it. Normally it would be fine and the scene would be good, but he turns it into this completely different moment because he puts a spin on it.

[Patrick J. Adams]

So innovative. So then Harvey takes Mike to his office to meet Jerome Jensen, who's played by James Morrison. And Jerome is concerned that his daughter Lola is in trouble and wants Harvey's help.

[Sarah Rafferty]

How much do we love Jerome Jensen? James Morrison's voice.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Oh, my God. I know. I put that voice in my bathtub. I'd bathe in it. So then, while Harvey meets with Jerome, Lewis attempts to get past Donna, and she stops him with a simple. June 3, 1997.

[Sarah Rafferty]

I didn't remember this.

[Patrick J. Adams]

You don't remember this scene?

[Sarah Rafferty]

I don't remember this scene. And then I looms large from me. We don't ever go in a world where the can opener has been, you know, the coin of the realm of this show. Everyone wants to talk about it. June 3, 1997, slipped away. I want to know.

[Patrick J. Adams]

This is a baby can opener moment. This is a moment that probably never gets answered. Led to the. No, it never gets answered. It never gets answered. I love shooting this. I mean, it's really short, and we did it so fast. This is a big, like, piece of backstory for me. I know I've said it before. I was getting these little pings of who she was, and they were small, but they went deep. And the truth is, if this were not a comedy scene, this is. This scene would have been really messed up because Lewis tries to humiliate Donna, and she pretends for a second that she's humiliated, and then she effortlessly whips out this date that basically brings him to his knees. And it was kind of amazing to me that she's someone who has the foresight to store information, to strategically have in an arsenal at any given time, and that she clearly has, like, this mysterious Rolodex of sources, and she also just enjoys the shit out of herself. And I do remember, because I was thinking about that date, and I did text Aaron about it. He said, it's not a date that means anything. And all I remember is that it's the first time I tried writing something where we just refer to a character knowing something about another character obliquely and using it to win. And it just came out. I made up the date, and we were off to the races. It might have been with Maraghi, he says, but after that, we did it a decent amount of times. And Kristen looked back. She looked back on Twitter. She was looking back to see if we ever talk about, like, what that date was. And Kristen noted that all she could find on Twitter at the time. Also explained to me later how you, like, go back on Twitter and find this stuff. Kristin. But she found that Aaron basically said, like, I know that Rafferty and Hoffman know what it means, and I can't remember what we did, but I do remember, like, standing in that little spot where it happens outside of Harvey's office. And I remember Rick and I going back and forth, like, creating a scenario of humiliation of Louis. Like, something from 1993. Like a ha. Like a frat hazing gone wrong. Like, there was nudity. There was, like, you know, being put in the back of somebody's Honda Civic, like, and driven across the border. I mean, like, there was, like, crazy stuff.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Whatever it is, it's bad because he turns on a dime, and. And he doesn't just go to, like.

[Patrick J. Adams]

And he does not want Harvey to know.

[Sarah Rafferty]

And he also just goes to. I'm going to get you money, right?

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yes. Yeah.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Like, it feels like he's legally going to be in trouble if this gets. This isn't just Harvey finding out. This is like. But what feels.

[Patrick J. Adams]

What we worked out is kind of in the deeper themes of the show, which is that there are that joke that I made about Louis, like, somebody hurt you. What happened to you? Show me what happened. He's dealt with humiliation, so now he's somebody who tries to deal humiliation. I mean, hurt people. Hurt people. But listen to what Aaron said. I just think this is fun to wrap this little moment up. He said. So funny enough, I had to come up with a date in suits LA the other day. And I chose June 3rd as an homage to that moment. And I hope that helps. I love that it's gonna live on. We should make it a holiday. Should we make it a special holiday?

[Sarah Rafferty]

It's the Suits holiday. June 3, 1997. June 3. Every year, I think we pulled up the clip. Maybe this is another perfect example of Rick taking a line that in the script reads, I was not here.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yeah, June 3rd, 1997. That day means nothing to me. Doesn't mean him. Who told you? Is the important thing how I know or that I know? Does Harvey know? He can.

[Sarah Rafferty]

I am going to pay you.

[Patrick J. Adams]

I don't want your money, Lewis. I just want you to. I was not here I was. Not here I was not.

[Sarah Rafferty]

I mean, give me a break. It's master class. Together with millions of supporters, the Humane Society of the United States takes on puppy mills, factory farms, the fur trade, trophy hunting, animal cosmetics, testing and other cruel industries. They respond in critical moments of crisis when animals need immediate help. They're also laying the groundwork for change that can prevent tomorrow's cruelties by fighting for better laws, holding corporations accountable, and tackling the worst animal abuses. But there's so much more that needs to be done and they need your help to protect all of the animals and prevent suffering. Animals struggling to survive cannot wait. And neither should you. By donating today, you can create a future where animals no longer suffer. Your contribution, no matter the size, has the power to change lives. Right now, a limited time challenge fund can double your impact and go even further to help provide protection, care and life saving resources to animals in need. Donate today at www.humanesociety.org donations every dollar saves lives.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Hey Patrick, why is gift giving so enjoyable for you specifically?

[Sarah Rafferty]

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[Patrick J. Adams]

What did you get?

[Sarah Rafferty]

A Mongolian cashmere fisherman full zip sweater.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Oh, I bet that looks so good on you. What color is it?

[Sarah Rafferty]

It's navy blue and it's incredible. The problem is I don't get to wear it much because Troian has stolen it from me and I can't have it back. I love that this thing is so comfortable and she wears it all over the house and I might need to get another one so that I can wear one.

[Patrick J. Adams]

I think I know what to get you for the holidays.

[Sarah Rafferty]

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[Patrick J. Adams]

Wow. Wow. That went south.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Well, first of all, obviously, I don't have to mention it. The opposing council here, played by Tim Russ, who I know you know as Lt. Tuvok from Star Trek Voyager.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yep. I'm in Star Trek class right now.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Obviously. Genius performance.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Always.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Yeah. I was nervous meeting. Meeting Tim Russ, did you say something? Anytime I meet anybody from a Star Trek show, it's like a different. It's like a different kind of starstruck. It's its own particular. Yeah, starstruck for me.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yeah.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Lovely guy. And so lucky to have him. He's great in this. When we take this public, you're going to be disgraced.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Oh, when I take this public, you're going to be disgraced.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Done.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yeah.

[Sarah Rafferty]

So specific. And then we have our opening credits, and we're into act one. In Jessica's office, Harvey and Lewis discuss Perkins's death and the next steps for the case. Again, genius line. Would it be okay if I took the credit?

[Patrick J. Adams]

Santu and I laughed out loud at that. Right? At Rick. I mean, with some pain. Look, it only works because it's Rick and because it leads into his next scenes where you see him actually trying to human. When he's in Harvey's office, he's in Harvey's office with these high hopes of connecting with him. But it's only on Lewis terms that he wants to connect. Right. And he just tries so hard, but he lacks so much emotional intelligence. And of course, that following scene is a failure between the two of them, because it does take two to tango. Harvey Spector isn't exactly one to help Louis get out of his own way already.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Where are you at for the story of the show? Perkins and Maslow and embezzlement.

[Patrick J. Adams]

I don't know what's happening.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Lola Jensen and IDs. And I'm confused. Right. We're both already, like, I'm into this scene. Cause I understand the dynamics of our folks here. If you're asking me what we're actually arguing about, I don't know. I'm like, who did what to who? I'm already.

[Patrick J. Adams]

But I have a theory on this, and it's coming up later, so bear with me. But I think we're learning to delay our gratification.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just wanted to point out, like, already this early on, I'm already starting to feel a little adrift.

[Patrick J. Adams]

That's cool. That's cool.

[Sarah Rafferty]

And having to, like, go back and just rewatch the scene because I'm so charmed by everybody and loving the interaction, but I'm missing some of the. Like. Wait, okay, so who embezzled what and who was Perkins and why? You know what I mean? Why. Why was he in the room and all that stuff?

[Patrick J. Adams]

And I realize I don't tune into suits for necessarily following all that stuff. Right.

[Sarah Rafferty]

A hundred percent. I do not. But this episode is requiring it. Yes, I hear you More than the other episodes. In other episodes, you can kind of tune it out and go. I think I kind of get it enough that I'm following. I think this is part of why I struggle with this one a little bit. Because it's so much of the episode that if you don't follow it, then you're missing a huge percentage of the episode.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Right. So when we have that line in Jessica's office where he says, would it be okay if I took the credit? And it's hilarious. And Lewis is really broken. It does move into the next scene where Harvey finds Lewis waiting in his office. And Lewis says really kind of vulnerably, like, I'm trying to build rapport. And it's just. It's a great scene.

[Sarah Rafferty]

I love this scene between the two of them. Yeah. Perfect example of, like, get them together. And they're trying to build rapport so they can be better at a case. It doesn't matter what the case is.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Exactly.

[Sarah Rafferty]

I just know that Lewis wants to be closer to Harvey. Harvey can't help but demean Lewis. And they do this little dance, and it's fun.

[Patrick J. Adams]

So Mike finds Lola Jensen and tries to talk her out of her plan to steal from her father's company. Oh, my goodness. What an amazing guest star.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Yeah. Amanda Carew. So lucky to have her. And Lola Jensen, you know, an important. As we're going to figure out, a very important person to the evolution of Mike and the show. And we get her back too.

[Patrick J. Adams]

She comes back and I want to say Amanda Crew. I can't take my eyes off of her, so I'm giving her the Tor Riz Award.

[Sarah Rafferty]

She gets the Tor Riz Award?

[Patrick J. Adams]

I think so.

[Sarah Rafferty]

I think we have to. Do we have to say that? Gina. Tor Riz Award. Now, let's. I'm gonna ask you about this award. Is it. It feels like it should be for, like, a particular moment.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Oh, I think it's just a vibe.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Oh. To me, the Gina Torres Award is like. It's a. It's an. It's a momentary vibe. It's just like.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Okay.

[Sarah Rafferty]

They come onto the screen and it's like they've got. They've got the wrist.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Well, she has the. She's got the wrist. She's got the wrist.

[Sarah Rafferty]

She's got it in spades.

[Patrick J. Adams]

And I want to say that Mike has met his match in brains and hearts. I love it. In the lab at Columbia. Yes.

[Sarah Rafferty]

I'm trying to think. I think her Riz moment is for me, not in the lab, but when she's, you know, in her out in the world clothes.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Oh, well, yeah.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Like jeans and leather jacket and meeting with dad at lunch or something. That might be my Gina Torres Award. There's a line in this where I say fake IDs are impossible after 9 11.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Got weird after 9 11.

[Sarah Rafferty]

I mean, fake IDs were not impossible after 9 11. So. Sorry. There are a lot of fake IDs after 9 11.

[Patrick J. Adams]

I'm just trying over here. I'm just trying. I'm just trying. You are my sunshine. Well, no, but this is my point.

[Sarah Rafferty]

I have to be able to quibble. Yeah. So if I'm gonna quibble, you gotta let me quibble. Can you tell me that there were not fake IDs after 9 11? I didn't know. I've never even heard that as a.

[Patrick J. Adams]

I can tell you that I didn't care.

[Sarah Rafferty]

That's all. But you heard my quabble is.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yeah. And it didn't. I was just like. Whatever. I was. I was focused on something else.

[Sarah Rafferty]

But I think this is like, when I watch shows I like. It's not like I'm fine tooth combing, everything everyone says, but if I hear enough things in a row, it's like the poker chips.

[Patrick J. Adams]

You really were annoyed by the poker chips.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Yeah, well, no, but like the poker chips, that was like one thing that made no sense in pilot, but then it goes away and then I forget and I'm into this story. But if there's one thing, if there's many of those things in a row that strain credulity, I can't stay in the story because I keep being told things that aren't true.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Strain credulity. I loved that. That was cool. I'm going to try to say that 10 times fast. Everybody wait while I try to do it.

[Sarah Rafferty]

But you know what, listener? If you can send me proof that fake IDs were much more statistically difficult after 9 11, then I'll be happy to recant.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Oh, fun. Let's do that. I like the gamifying of this. That's a perfect. We can gamify the quibble quabbles.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Yeah. Yeah. I don't even know what you just said, but that works. So Lewis and Harvey then go and meet with Maslow, played by the one and only Bruce Altman. How did we get this guy on our show?

[Patrick J. Adams]

Incredible. Unbelievable listener.

[Sarah Rafferty]

If you're a tad younger, the Bruce Altman who's playing Maslow in this episode, he's like an iconic character actor of, you know, I think in the 80s and 90s was his most prolific time. But, I mean, he's amazing.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yeah, he's amazing. Patrick. I had a really scary moment, though. This is a first.

[Sarah Rafferty]

What?

[Patrick J. Adams]

When I saw him pop up on the screen, I was like, oh, Bruce Altman. I worked with him on.

[Sarah Rafferty]

You didn't remember?

[Patrick J. Adams]

It was a theater thing. I remember the room. When was it? Where was it? Why was it? What was the play like? How am I already at the place in my life There was a. How can you forget a job you had? Like, how can I be at the place in my life where I'm like, I can't remember what the job. I can't remember what the play was. I don't even remember. It's like going to a whole summer camp, sleep away and being like, I don't remember going. How did that happen already to me?

[Sarah Rafferty]

Did you. Did you ever recover it? Do we know?

[Patrick J. Adams]

No, it's not in there.

[Sarah Rafferty]

It's gone, it's gone. It's just the hard drive's been wiped, huh?

[Patrick J. Adams]

Anyway, moving on as I want to ask you this because I have a theme about some of the really subtle things that Rick is doing in this episode. Did you notice? And I don't even know if it was even conscious on his part. And maybe. Maybe I'm just reading into normal behavior. But when Harvey and Lewis stand up. Cause they're done with the deposition at the end of it, it's like Lewis does it exactly at the same time as Harvey. And you can have this feeling he even buttons his jacket at the exact same moment. It's like he's exactly trying to, like, be Harvey. Like, trying to keep up. And he's a split second behind. And it just is a little bit of an unconscious kind of heartbreak moment that I think he's building a bunch of these for us so that by the end of the episode, we're really gonna go deep with Lewis Litt.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Agreed. 100%. Again, I just to check in here at the end of the. Look, you're saying all the lovely things, and I'm like, but here we are at the end of the first act. Can you tell me what's happening in this case? And I know it's not what our show's about. I say that knowing that. But can you now tell me what's happening with Maslow and Perkins?

[Patrick J. Adams]

I don't know who Maslow ended up. The people across the table from Lewis and Harvey.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Yes.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Somebody over there. I don't know their names. Somebody over there. These lovely people, these very good actors that I like looking at. Somebody over there on their team embezzled money from this lady that I saw at the beginning who I really like, who seems to have amazing rapport with Jessica and seems very cool and can wear a hard hat. And we'll see. She also gets real dressed up, so she can wear all the hats. And I know it hurts her in some way that I'm not okay with. And then there's a man with a buttery voice who has a falling out with his daughter. And his daughter is a lot like Mike because she's kind of like this Robin Hood who wants to rob Peter to pay Paul. That's it. That's where I am.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Right. But who is Perkins?

[Patrick J. Adams]

I don't care.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Well, he died. We gotta care.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Oh, he died. I forgot that part. I blocked it out. I don't want to. I don't want to drop that part in. I guess that's what's happening. Thank you for this analysis.

[Sarah Rafferty]

That poor man died for nothing.

[Patrick J. Adams]

All I know is that he did a really good job acting the moments before, because I was like, what is happening to that guy?

[Sarah Rafferty]

This reminds me of moments in the show. And I don't know if it probably happened with you as well, but because Harvey and I had to do a lot of the. Like being in these scenes where.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yes, and I did not. So I had the privilege of not having to do that.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Well, I think you did. Ultimately, you ended up being in more of them later on. But the scenes where you need to know, like, wait, what did he do? Why are we suspicious of him? What in this scene is making us more suspicious of him? I remember Gabriel and I, especially in later seasons, but I feel like an episode like this, we probably would have had this moment where we sort of quietly turned to each other in the middle. Like when they're setting up cameras and lights and be like, do you have any idea what's happening? Like, can you. Can you explain to. I don't quite understand.

[Patrick J. Adams]

That's fair.

[Sarah Rafferty]

And we would, I think, early on attempt to, like, really hammer it out. Be like, wait, wait, wait. No, no, you would have been. And then maybe by season six, we'll catch some moments where we're just like. I honestly, I don't know. Are we winning or losing? Yeah, I think we're winning this scene. But, you know, as an actor, that's not a great place to be in. You don't want to be keeping it that basic. And sometimes when things got this convoluted, it was hard to know what was going on.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yeah, yeah, of course.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Anyway, that takes us to Act 2. Harvey and Jessica meet with Lucille to update her.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Can I just hold space for you on that for two seconds? I just wanted to say this to you. The edit machine can take it out. I hear you. And it's a really uncomfortable place to be as an actor because it makes you extra self conscious and insecure. I'm just gonna say I can get. I can get that it does that to you sometimes.

[Sarah Rafferty]

I appreciate that. It wasn't even like insecure. It was just like we struggled with the same thing that. I think you and I are having the conversation now. Does this matter? Because you. It doesn't seem to much matter in your appreciation of what's going on. And like, the. The important thing of the episode, which is these characters, what's happening with them? Right.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Like, I'm learning. I need to delay the gratification of knowing what' to happen.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Yeah, right. And we would be in the scene and we'd Be like, well, we have to play this, but does it matter? Right? Like that. Like, like I need to know what the details are of this interaction. But. And I think maybe this is why you feel me picking at details. Because as an actor I would go picking at details. And a lot of time, most of the time, 99% of the time it's fine and you find your way through it. And then there'd be sometimes as an actor where if you dig too much, if you pull too hard on the string and go, but why would I ask him that if he just said this and the other, as soon as you start yanking on that, you can keep pulling the thread until the sweater falls apart. And so ultimately the answer is sometimes just like, just don't ask that question.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yeah. And sometimes you found the sweater falling totally apart. Like you and Eren would struggle.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Which hopefully we can talk about more. I think it's the nature of any show is like, it's show. And there's always gonna be threads that if you pull too hard on them and you're looking for. Because sometimes if you're frustrated as an actor too, you're kind of looking for problems.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yeah.

[Sarah Rafferty]

And so you have to know, when am I doing this in a way that's out to benefit this episode and just deepen this process and make sure that the viewer is with us on this journey and they're not asking the wrong questions or being taken out of the story versus am I just feeding my own ego and looking for problems? It's a tough thing to know when you're on episode eight and exhausted and not really sure what your own intentions are.

[Patrick J. Adams]

But when in life, what are the tools that you have when you do that in your real life?

[Sarah Rafferty]

Now I just stop. I take a big long. I think when I was 28 years old, I just go for it. First impulse. This bothers me. I'm going to pull at it and I'm going to potentially make everyone's life miserable in the process of pulling on it. Now I will like catch, stop, take a minute, do my best to assess. Like, is this going to genuinely help this scene? Is the. Are this line of questioning gonna help the situation or am I just looking to like assert a sort of weird dominance over it by critiquing it? Does that make sense?

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yeah. But what do you do when it's not work related?

[Sarah Rafferty]

Same thing. Stop. Do I need to say this? Does this need to be said by me? Now, is this helpful? I try to pivot to helpful as much as possible.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Oh, I love that pivot to helpful. I love that.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Doesn't always work.

[Patrick J. Adams]

That's okay. That's the jewel, though. Here. From the makers of Rice a Roni comes Macaroni, a creamy, delicious boxed Mac and cheese that's not just good, it's cheesy. Good macaroni will please even the pickiest eaters with two magnificent flavors that will melt your creamy cheddar and creamy white cheddar. If you love cheese, you'll love macaroni by the makers of Rice a Roni. If you don't love cheese, well, that's just unbelievable. Try macaroni. It's cheesy. Good Mac a Roni.

[Sarah Rafferty]

The San Francisco Treat Meet the next generation of podcast stars with Sirius XM's Listen Next program, presented by State Farm. As part of their mission to help voices be heard, State Farm teamed up with SiriusXM to uplift diverse and emerging creators. Tune in to Stars and Stars with Issa. As host, Issa Nakazawa dives into birth charts of her celeb guests. This is just the start of a new wave of podcasting. Visit statefarm.com to find out how we can help prepare for your future. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. So I've been googling whilst you were talking, and the only thing I can find of Bruce Altman and Sarah Rafferty in common is you both went to Yale drama school.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Oh, really?

[Sarah Rafferty]

Oh, my God. Yale. Yale. Better buy some ad space on this podcast. That's it.

[Patrick J. Adams]

That's it. We did. When did he graduate? Is it there? It's six years before you. Oh, yeah. Oh, I wonder if he came back and did a play while I was there. Anyway, I'm gonna. You know what? That's the. Like I came up with Quibble in the Bathtub. I'm gonna figure this out in the bathtub this week and I'll get back to y'all. Next.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Please join us next week when Sarah's thought about Bruce Altman in the bathtub.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Won't be the first time.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Bruce Altman's usually the first thing I.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Think about in the bathroom.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Oh, right. Then Lewis commands the associates. There's no slacking allowed. I could watch Rick scream at young associates all day long. It's great. Max Toplin, obviously, he's back. He's still there. He's still crushing it with just looks. At this point, you're not getting lines.

[Patrick J. Adams]

He walks perfectly into a Harold Gunderson close up. Just like, boom. Okay, so Harvey attends Perkins Funeral and connects with the widow. She's about to agree to be a witness. But then Lewis arrives and. Oh, God, Rick brings the most heartbreaking vulnerability to this scene. And props helped him so much to have Lewis carrying lilies to a funeral. I mean, like my mom always says, that's. Wait, is that a no?

[Sarah Rafferty]

No.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Well, listen, have you ever heard the term. Mimi always says, it's like carrying coals to Newcastle. Like, that's the thing they don't need. You don't need to bring lilies to a funeral. That's gilding the lily. And so it makes.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Sorry. Mimi always says, don't bring coals.

[Patrick J. Adams]

You don't have to bring coals. No. Kohl's. To Newcastle. Newcastle is a mining town in England. The beer is incredible. But we might know. Mom. My mom.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Oh, I've never heard. Mimi. Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't know your mom's name was Mimi.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Oh, Mimi. Yeah, Mimi. Oh, so you know Deborah, Kiki's mom. So Mimi looms large.

[Sarah Rafferty]

I'm so sorry. I forgot your mom's name.

[Patrick J. Adams]

No. And no, no, no. That's. You do not have to apologize for that, Mimi. Yeah, so Mimi always says, you do not have to carry coals to Newcastle. She also says, well, I think that's gilding the lily, right? Like spray painting the lily in gold or whatever. Like, you don't need to do that. It's already beautiful. But you're going to a funeral, Lewis. You don't need to bring lilies. That's the one thing, you know, they have a lot of. So to watch him just walk up there like. Just like, nobody needs your lilies. Like, you're just not getting it right out of the gate. He is trying so hard not to be outdone by Harvey that he forgot gets to bring his humanity. He's so unaware, and you can see that it really hurts him so deeply in this scene. But he just can't unf himself. I mean, he cannot get out of his own way.

[Sarah Rafferty]

It's so good just to take Lewis's side in this scene for a second. Like, why is Harvey getting away? Like, this woman's husband was killed by the Firm, or so she thinks. We've already actually decided that it was not what happened in that scene and that he was going to die anyway. But in her mind, let's say for the case of this scene, she thinks that the Firm is responsible for killing. But she's having this fine, wonderful conversation with Harvey because I guess he's Harvey and he's charming enough, but then I feel bad for Rick because Rick's coming to do the same thing.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Which is talk to her. Exactly. Which is how you feel about the helmet. You're like, I don't get to look good in helmet. Yeah.

[Sarah Rafferty]

But doing the same thing as this Harvey guy, and she freaks out and says, get out of here, and I don't want anything to do with any of you. Yeah.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Slappity wabity.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Wait a minute. Did I miss. How did I miss that?

[Patrick J. Adams]

You were in a curmudgeon.

[Sarah Rafferty]

But wait, she slaps him in the scene.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yeah.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Wow.

[Patrick J. Adams]

On his face.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Place in his face. Oh, wow.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Okay.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Well, anyway, but that's even more to my point, which is like, this poor guy, he's.

[Patrick J. Adams]

He's.

[Sarah Rafferty]

He brought flower. At least he brought flowers.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Harvey didn't even do that cold to Newcastle. Anyway, Lola shows up at Mike's apartment.

[Sarah Rafferty]

And she knows my secret. She's hacked the mainframe and she's figured me out. Which puts me. If we do a quick recap of who knows my secret now. Do it, Harvey.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yeah.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Donna, Jenny, Lola.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yeah.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Four people know. Trevor knows. Oh, Trevor. Trevor knows. Yeah, of course.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Sorry, 5 and can I sidebar with you for a second?

[Sarah Rafferty]

Yeah, go ahead.

[Patrick J. Adams]

So when she knocks on the door, I was like, oh, my God, is she another possible love interest? I was like, interesting. What is happening here? And then I realized, because I rewinded it, I was like, wait, why was I like, wow, another love interest? That feels like gilding the Lily on this TV show. But I was really taken with her. It turns quickly that, you know, that's not happening within the first few seconds of the scene. But she reminded me of someone that I really, really love. An actress that I have, like, a talent crush on. And I think it means that I have, like, a type.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Who?

[Patrick J. Adams]

Troian Bellisario.

[Sarah Rafferty]

I know Troian Bellisario. I don't know if you know this, but I'm married to her. Why, yes, she is my wife.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Oh, my God, you married up.

[Sarah Rafferty]

And also will be on suits eventually. Yeah, I guess they do. There is a type there.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Also, there's a recurring role for the Mike doll here. And the first Mike Dahl episode was written by Ethan, and now this is the second one written by Ethan, and Mike Dahl is in the scene with you. Anyway, moving on.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Good catch. Solid catch. And we still have not found the Mike doll out in the real world, so if anyone knows, please call. We're worried about him.

[Patrick J. Adams]

So we are into Act 3, and Lewis tries to convince Maslow's assistant to be a witness. And we see him initially try to intimidate her, but then, to use his own words, he pivots from the stick to the carrot. So then Harvey and Lewis visit Maslow's attorney, and we find out that Lewis inadvertently attempted to bribe Inez as a witness.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Then we're into Act 4, Harvey's office. Harvey dismisses Mike's concern over Lola's threats, and Mike storms off in a huff. I'm huffing. Find another solution. And it's at this moment that the word Lichtenstein enters the group chat of this episode. And it does not let up for the whole time. Lichtenstein, funny enough, became Gabriel and I's.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Word for your safety word.

[Sarah Rafferty]

When basically, when we reached a moment of, like. It's hard to describe, but just like, when the scripts became surreal and we maybe didn't and they were making us laugh or something silly was going on, we would always turn to each other and just go licked in sty. Because of this episode, because it was really the first time where when we were, like, reading it, we were like, it just suddenly got dropped. And then we had to say it over and over again. It's such a strange word. You know, a place. It's not a place that we talk about a lot. Lichtenstein. And we had to keep saying it over and over and over again in this episode, kind of dropping it like it's just normal. And we wanted to make a joke of it, but it was not the sort of thing that in the story, it was time to be making jokes about the name Lichtenstein. And so, yeah, it became sort of fundamental to Gabriel and I, making sense of things that didn't make sense to us.

[Patrick J. Adams]

From here on, a real bonding moment. And later, you see Bruce Altman's character. Correct? Yeah, correct. Harvey on the way he says he's like Lichtenstein or whatever. Must have been that Yale education. Yeah. I really like the scene. Mike has a right. Mike's right here. Harvey's privilege is getting in the way of his empathy. And Mike has a right to treat him like a dick because he's totally being a dick.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Oh, wait a minute. It is really annoying. Mike's being a dick or Harvey's being a dick?

[Patrick J. Adams]

Harvey's being a dick.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Oh, right.

[Patrick J. Adams]

So I think Mike was right to get up and storm out of there, and I liked it.

[Sarah Rafferty]

I'm not crazy about my performance in this. In this scene, really, this episode, because I think I was struggling as an actor. The same way I may be struggling as a viewer and I just couldn't get past it, but I can see me, like, not maybe committing 100%. So in a scene like this where I'm like, this is probably the crux of what's going on for Mike in this episode, suddenly he feels threatened and like, you know, this major thing is going to get lost. I'm just not.

[Patrick J. Adams]

I'm like, it's very, very human.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Swing and a miss.

[Patrick J. Adams]

We get in our own way. I did not experience your performance like that. I loved this scene, for example, these exact moments. Which means we can't judge our own performances, as I've learned. But recently by doing this podcast with you. But I will say, like, that is very human. And that's a little bit what Lewis is going through. It's reflected a little bit.

[Sarah Rafferty]

I feel very Lewis y. Yeah.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Just like I'm getting in my way and I'm robbing myself of joy and presence and we all.

[Sarah Rafferty]

I have never gotten in my own way or robbed myself of joy.

[Patrick J. Adams]

I've already fixed it in myself. I've fixed it, so you're welcome.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Mike confronts Lola to ask her to use her hacking skills for good.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Because I knew you. I have been changed for good.

[Sarah Rafferty]

I love that song. What's that from?

[Patrick J. Adams]

Wicked.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Oh, okay, great. Yes, Wicked.

[Patrick J. Adams]

That you haven't.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Great. I don't know if. Do we have the rights to this music? No, you need rights.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Do I have the rights to be singing on a podcast is the bigger question here.

[Sarah Rafferty]

It's what America needs.

[Patrick J. Adams]

It's not what anybody needs. But I do think it gets back to the wicked. The wicked being of the moment. So Mike confronts Lola to ask her to use her hacking skills for good.

[Sarah Rafferty]

And now he's dropping some housing projects in front of her. There were some folders, sort of classic suits. More folders. Yes, dropping folders. And this is really where I was like, what? Wait a minute. I've been all over the place, plot wise in terms of who's doing what to who and what. I know it's not important, but then he had these folders and he was talking about housing projects and I was not understanding fully. Again, I had to. I do understand now, but I had to watch it a bunch of times to be like, wait, what? What's in these folders? Those matter.

[Patrick J. Adams]

This is the moment that I referenced before where it's Mike that knits together these two cases.

[Sarah Rafferty]

I'm a dummy. The housing projects are. Lucille. Yeah, didn't get it. Oh, dummy. Wait Let me, Dummy boy.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Okay, wait. Can I say my thing then?

[Sarah Rafferty]

Wait, no. Yes, of course you can. Sorry. I just wanted to. You were giving me an aha moment that was very important of the housing projects.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Oh, I feel good about that.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Realize that those were.

[Patrick J. Adams]

That's my win, too.

[Sarah Rafferty]

That they were the same thing.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yeah. So, okay, so this is a tactic for Mike. He's basically saying to Lola, like, put your money where your mouth is. You're pretending or saying. Or defining yourself as an activist. But I think that maybe you're just mad at Daddy. Maybe you're just a spoiled kid mad at Daddy. So show me that you're an activist by using your skills for this other case that I have going on, which will support Lucille's endowment. And now we see why we needed these two cases and why it was hard for us for a little while. We had to delay our gratification. And what happened to me in this scene is that I discovered that I feel like I should be able to be more patient and perhaps less skeptical with the unfolding of story. And from a character perspective, I think this is really cool, because this is juxtaposed to Lewis's journey, because if he had had more heart, like Mike does, he could possibly get out of his own way and get the support that he needs with the case. He could potentially un f himself, as I've said. If only he could. Ready for it. Be like Mike. Be like Mike.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Be like Mike. By drawing, by seeing the different ways, by caring. I totally see what you're saying. I think it makes a lot of sense. Clearly, I am a dummy boy because I didn't tie together.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Are we putting that up?

[Sarah Rafferty]

What?

[Patrick J. Adams]

Dummy boy. Dummy boy.

[Sarah Rafferty]

I'm a dummy boy.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Wait, that's a great brand. So in Harvey's office, Lola hacks the Liechtenstein banks to find proof of Maslow's embezzlement. But they can't find anything, and Harvey needs Lewis's help. Okay, so Harvey asked Donna to help find Lewis. He won't ask Norma because she creeped him out. Um, So I. I have a lot of memories of this scene. I loved this scene so much. Um, where this is the scene where Donna says to Harvey, ugh, you're such a wuss.

[Sarah Rafferty]

What did you say to me? Mm.

[Patrick J. Adams]

And first of all, I'm not saying I did, but I'm also not saying I didn't take a lot of personal satisfaction from Donna telling Harvey that he's a wuss. But she also gets to, like, shush him while he waits. While she's on the phone talking to Norma. Norma? Where is he? What? You're kidding. What? So she's super in charge of this moment. And what I love about it is that Gabriel brings this totally boyish side of Harvey to this, like, blip of a scene. I mean, he, like, comes in and sits on her desk and is cowering, scared of normal. And we have to assume that there's all this intimacy between the two of them because there's such a lack of status at play between Harvey and Donna. And this is where I needed direction. I was like, wait, hang on. Really? You guys want me to just shush him like, he's my boss, tell him he's a wuss? You know, that was kind of a big step, I think. It seems really tiny, but it totally reframed my idea of their relationship, that she's the one who's saying, like, shh, I'm talking, or I'm listening to something, or, I'm in charge of this moment, or, like, what is wrong with you that she's that person.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Had you not shushed him or done things like that to him before this moment?

[Patrick J. Adams]

No. And I remember because it came up in the finale, when we were shooting the finale of season one in a scene that has been cut, where she walks into a room and she says, what the hell is wrong with you? Like, she walks in like that, and I remember being like, wow. Like, they have a history. Like, she is not his employee. They started out in a different place if she's somebody who starts out talking to him like that. And in this case, this was the first time where I was like, do you want me to just be like, hang on a second, please, sir Vibes. You know, like, I'm on the phone with Norma, and they're like, no, sure. I was like, okay, great. And Gabriel did so much to create that by coming in like, the cowering boy who desperately needed Donna to call his mommy, who was Norma, and take care of it for him.

[Sarah Rafferty]

And it is a oner as well, right? It is a one very quickly. It just.

[Patrick J. Adams]

It was one of those scenes where somebody said, we're just gonna do this quick. I think it might get cut. But it does file this under, you know, this is where Gabriel really, on his side of the street, made Donna who she was by coming in with a strong need and with low status.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Quick reframe.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yeah.

[Sarah Rafferty]

You made Donna who she was. You don't. You don't need no man making Donna. Thanks. Look me right here.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Thanks.

[Sarah Rafferty]

You made Donna. You Look. Look at me. Right? Look right, There we go.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Thanks, Brent.

[Sarah Rafferty]

You made Donna and Aaron as well.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Thanks, Ren.

[Sarah Rafferty]

And a room full of writers. Anyway, then we cut to Harvey finding.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Lewis, where at the gun range.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Of course he does. Fitting for this, for this episode to get Lewis getting some rage out and him being a crack shot and wearing those glasses. I, I. This is a perfectly complicated scene in that. I love this scene. It's probably the scene of the episode for me, but I don't buy the setup of what's happening here. So I, like, love watching my guys do their thing. I love watching them pivot. I love the setup. I love that they're doing it at a gun range. But I'm also a bit frustrated because I'm like, I know Harvey doesn't mean any of the things in the scene, because he was just told he has to be here. I think what I wish for this scene was that our guy Harvey had made the understandable decision that he needs Louis. I will believe what he says in this scene if Jessica says, you need to fix this, and Harvey goes, I gotta go to the one guy. I know that the one guy who can help me fix this is the guy who I've been fighting with this whole time. But there's something about Jessica forcing his hand to go that undercuts a bit what I want most from this scene, which is Harvey reckoning with the fact that Lewis is a really important and valuable part of this equation and that he has a superpower that Harvey and Mike don't have and that they do need.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yeah, yeah, I hear you. And my experience of the scene was that it was there. It was actually a totally satisfying scene to me when I was watching it. And I think, to me, it was just like human nature. I think that two things can always be true for Harvey, right? He can have empathy and appreciation for Louis, and he can be totally pissed that he makes really bad choices. And I think that's when we start to really see what I think Aaron was after in all nine seasons, which is that they're like a family. It did move me. It did its job for me, I think. And I can see why it didn't for you. And I find that actually kind of fascinating. It's kind of like, am I the audience for this scene? You know, like, we don't get everybody with every scene. Just like, Godfather. I was just like, yeah. You know? And you're like, oh, my God, you need to watch the Godfather. And I know that you're right. I'm Just going to need help, probably because I have. Maybe I have resistance to those kinds of things. Like when you were talking about Pacino the other day and I was like, yeah, I just don't. Those aren't my movies. Taxi Driver.

[Sarah Rafferty]

You're like Al Pacino.

[Patrick J. Adams]

No, I love Al Pacino, but Taxi Driver isn't something I'm going to stop on when I'm clicking through, you know.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Al Pacino's not in Taxi Driver.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Right. Wait, what were we talking about? What was the Taxi Driver?

[Sarah Rafferty]

We're not cutting this.

[Patrick J. Adams]

What was the Taxi Driver?

[Sarah Rafferty]

Robert De Niro.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yeah, that's what I mean. Sorry. Al Pacino was in Hoo Ha.

[Sarah Rafferty]

He's in Hoo Ha. Yeah. It's a little known film.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yeah. And I'm not trying to say that those two actors are the same. I am tired. But you know what I'm saying, Like, some things are for. Some things are for some people and some things for other people. So, like, this scene was for me, like, I was. It was really satisfying for me.

[Sarah Rafferty]

I love that. I'm very happy that you were satisfied by this episode.

[Patrick J. Adams]

I will never be satisfied. I'm going to start singing Hamilton if you keep saying satisfied, though, and nobody needs to hear that.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Anyway, Lewis displays his expertise as he, Mike and Harvey finally tracked down proof of Maslow's crimes. This is probably my favorite scene of the episode because finally we're through all of the mumbo jumbo. And it's fun to watch the three, the three amigos hashing it out. And we get to see why Lewis is the most important missing tool in this dynamic for this particular case. And he crushes it.

[Patrick J. Adams]

And then Harvey and Lewis confront Maslow and the jig is up. You saw the look from Harvey at the end of that scene when they win. Harvey kind of looks at Lewis.

[Sarah Rafferty]

I love that look he gives him three times. I think he does a triple take.

[Patrick J. Adams]

And I think it's my impression that Harvey is responding to Lewis. Rick makes this choice all the time, and I just love it so much. Whenever Lewis has a win, Rick makes this choice that it's like Lewis has funk music starting to play in his head and he does this teensy, tiny. Yeah, bobblehead victory dance. And it's just like there was this whole journey for me on this really subtle Lewis character development. From humiliation to like, trying to be like the cool kid to, you know, shame to I'm a little boy who won, you know, it's so sweet to me.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Our guy won. He won one. Lola visits Mike hands him an authentic Harvard diploma. Instead of exposing his secret, she conceals it by hacking Harvard's database. This is one of the few props that I have.

[Patrick J. Adams]

I love that. Where is it? Where, though? Which room?

[Sarah Rafferty]

My. My office that I have. Not in my home.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Oh, that's great. You'll show me next time. I'm. I'm there.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Mike and Rachel walk out together, and we get another little Greek reference. They're gonna make a joke about going to Greece together. Oh, I also. I just buy it.

[Patrick J. Adams]

What?

[Sarah Rafferty]

Do you see that?

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yeah. Do you want to? Do you want to? Yeah. You did?

[Sarah Rafferty]

I checked out her butt. That was weird.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yeah, that was weird. Was that a statue? That was weird. Do you think you were directed to do that? Probably.

[Sarah Rafferty]

I don't know. I'm. I wouldn't necessarily want to put that on anybody else. I might have done it thinking it was funny. I don't know. This whole relationship had not been sexualized or romanticized at all.

[Patrick J. Adams]

It had been like, thank God, two.

[Sarah Rafferty]

People who are helping each other out. So to throw that in at the last minute was. Was. Was like, what? This hasn't been that. Why are we doing that?

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yeah, it's a really good point.

[Sarah Rafferty]

And then Rachel and Mike walk out together. I miss Rachel in this episode. I always miss our characters who aren't more a part of the episode.

[Patrick J. Adams]

I do, too. And I think it's so great that we get to. You know. I think it's so good for the characters.

[Sarah Rafferty]

You know what they say about absence.

[Patrick J. Adams]

What do they say?

[Sarah Rafferty]

Something about hearts growing more fond.

[Patrick J. Adams]

I was gonna make a dirty joke, but. But I didn't.

[Sarah Rafferty]

So that's the end of the episode.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yeah, that's it.

[Sarah Rafferty]

We did it. Well, honorable mentions. My honorable mention is Lewis Litt. As always, he just runs away with it. Breaks our hearts, makes us laugh, makes us cry. And also the Lewis Harvey combination. I love watching the two of them together. It opens up that gear of this show, which is like, oh, I want to see them. Want to see how they are going to grow and tackle cases together when they need to. What I loved most about this episode was our friend Rick and just what a teacher he is. Honestly, still, a lot of times I just am acting and I'm on set, and I think, what would Rick Hoffman do in this moment? And how much could I get away with? So that's my big takeaway from the episode.

[Patrick J. Adams]

I heartily agree with you about the fact that this was just an incredible Rick Hoffman, and I will even say that maybe it's helpful that it wasn't our most favorite storyline, which means there aren't a whole lot of bells and whistles going on. So we cannot be distracted from how magnificent Rick's work is, because that work alone is laid bare. It's just all about what a gift he is to this show. I think I have a little bit of a quibble. Speaking of bells and whistles, were there a lot of needle drops or were there less needle drops this time?

[Sarah Rafferty]

Yeah, there were none that jumped out to me. There were. No. I usually write them down in my notes. And I. And I didn't.

[Patrick J. Adams]

No. Well, Kristen's saying here there were only two, and they weren't there until the end of the episode. So maybe we also miss them. Like we miss the energy of those. And we'll see on the next one if we have more of them back. I know we had a lot in the previous episode, so maybe that was just a budgetary restriction, and it's just showing us that we. We need more of our cool music.

[Sarah Rafferty]

All right. How many goddamns do you think we had, Sarah?

[Patrick J. Adams]

Oh. Oh, sorry. I thought you were talking to Kristen.

[Sarah Rafferty]

I don't. Sarah, Kristen knows how many we have.

[Patrick J. Adams]

How many goddamns do I think we had? I don't remember any, so I'm just gonna say one.

[Sarah Rafferty]

I'm gonna say two.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Well, if we're going by Price is.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Right rules, you both lose. Unless zero.

[Patrick J. Adams]

It's zero.

[Sarah Rafferty]

However, again, there is.

[Patrick J. Adams]

There is one in the script that was not said on.

[Sarah Rafferty]

You know, it's interesting we might be approaching the moment where on set, we were starting to quibble about God damn so early.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Huh?

[Sarah Rafferty]

Which is funny because there was a reaction to goddamns in the world. Right?

[Patrick J. Adams]

We were.

[Sarah Rafferty]

We were. We. As the show started playing, which that hadn't happen. It happened on this episode. But there was a moment when we started hearing from the world that they were potentially a little excessive and it became a conversation. But I think before that even happened, maybe what we're experiencing in the show is a resistance from actors, and I think Gabriel had to do a lot of the heavy lifting of the goddamns, but I think people were starting to ask if they had to say it so much. So I wonder if maybe you saying that there's one in the script but it wasn't set on screen makes me think that maybe there was some pushback and we were trying to see if we could get away with not saying them as much.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Also, guys, do you see I don't trust my instincts. I said I don't remember any, so I'm gonna say one. This happened to me last week. This is my journey. I just gotta go with my gut and I will win the goddamn game. Well, I have another opportunity for you because in the notes that we made, Patrick asked. Asked for a count on the Liechtensteins.

[Sarah Rafferty]

How many Liechtensteins did we have?

[Patrick J. Adams]

Oh, can I. Oh, wait, I want a second on that. I want a second on that. I think six.

[Sarah Rafferty]

I'm going. I was gonna say six, so I'll say five just to go under. Is it seven?

[Patrick J. Adams]

It's seven.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Yeah.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Sarah, you win.

[Sarah Rafferty]

You win this time. Nobody goes to Liechtenstein for pleasure. That's a lot of Lichtensteins.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Sarah's reaction is not as jubilant as.

[Sarah Rafferty]

I wanted it to be.

[Patrick J. Adams]

I'm sorry.

[Sarah Rafferty]

I'm sorry.

[Patrick J. Adams]

I'm just.

[Sarah Rafferty]

You won.

[Patrick J. Adams]

You know why? It wasn't. It wasn't because I was going to get back to Lichtenstein being a safety word, and then it was going to get real dirty, and I was like, I just got to stop. I got to stop.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Save it for the bathtub, Rafferty.

[Patrick J. Adams]

That's it. That was an interesting journey.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Closed on identity crisis. Guys, thank you so much for listening and we'll see you next week when we jump into yet another episode of Suits.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Thanks so much for joining us. Bye.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Thanks, Sarah. Bye.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Bye.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Thank you all so much for sending in your questions. Please keep them coming to sidebar. Podcasteriusxm.com we love hearing your feedback and we're grateful to you for joining us each and every week.

[Patrick J. Adams]

And please make sure to rate, review, and subscribe on your favorite podcast platform. It's such a great way to support the show and help us all out. So come back next week. We can't wait to talk to you again soon. Sidebar is produced by Sarah Rafferty, Patrick J. Adams, and Sirius XM Media.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Our senior producer is Kimmy Gregory, and our producer and researcher is Kristen Schrader.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Our sound engineer is Alex Gonzalez and our music is by Brendan Burns.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Our executive producers are Cody Fisher and Colin Anderson.

[Patrick J. Adams]

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[Sarah Rafferty]

Good Mac a Roni The San Francisco Treat Meet the next generation of podcast stars with Sirius XM's Listen Next program, presented by State Farm. As part of their mission to help voices be heard, State Farm teamed up with SiriusXM to uplift diverse and emerging creators. Tune in to Stars and Stars with Issa as host Issa Nakazawa dives into birth charts of her celeb guests. This is just the start of a new wave of podcasting. Visit statefarm.com to find out how we can help Prepare for your future. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.