Rules of the Game

Summary

Podcast Summary: Sidebar – "Rules of the Game" Episode Breakdown

Podcast Information:

• Title: Sidebar: A Suits Watch Podcast
• Host/Author: SiriusXM Podcasts (Patrick J. Adams and Sarah Rafferty)
• Episode: Rules of the Game
• Release Date: January 28, 2025

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Introduction

In the January 28, 2025 episode of Sidebar: A Suits Watch Podcast, hosts Patrick J. Adams and Sarah Rafferty delve into Season 1, Episode 11 of the popular TV series Suits, titled "Rules of the Game." Both actors, who portrayed Mike Ross and Donna Paulsen respectively, share their fresh perspectives as they watch the episode for the first time alongside the show's seasoned dynamics.

Context and Personal Reflections

[02:19] The hosts begin by acknowledging the recording is taking place during a challenging period in Los Angeles, touching briefly on recent events that have affected the community. They express gratitude for having a platform to focus on something positive amidst turmoil.

[04:03] - [05:07] Sarah shares a heartfelt appreciation for Patrick's support during difficult times, highlighting the strength of their personal bond as former cast members. Patrick reciprocates, emphasizing the importance of community and mutual support.

Episode Breakdown: "Rules of the Game"

[05:50] - [06:11] The episode, written by John Cowan and directed by Mike Smith, originally aired on September 1, 2011. Patrick notes that Mike Smith has directed 17 episodes of Suits, tying with Anton Cropper for the most directed episodes, illustrating his significant influence on the series' development.

[06:20] - [28:10]

• Mentorship and Loyalty: The primary theme revolves around Harvey Specter's former mentor, Cameron Dennis, played by Gary Cole. The hosts explore Harvey's loyalty and internal conflict when Cameron seeks his help amid an investigation into his unethical practices.

  Notable Quote:

  Patrick J. Adams [06:11]: "Mentor plays a big part in this. But what do you guys say?"

  Sarah Rafferty [06:17]: "I don't think there's right."

• Behind-the-Scenes Insights: Sarah recounts their experiences shooting the episode, including attending the 2011 summer TCA press tour and reflecting on the camaraderie among the cast. Patrick shares anecdotes about working with Mike Smith and praises his meticulous approach, likening his memory and professionalism to key aspects that elevate the show's quality.

  Notable Quote:

  Mike Smith [08:36]: "I remember being very excited to try out this new show called Suits in Toronto... it could really be a really fun show if it goes."

• Character Dynamics: The hosts discuss the intricate relationships between characters, particularly focusing on Harvey’s struggle with Cameron’s unethical actions and Donna’s role as his moral compass. They analyze how Harvey's actions, such as hiring Mike, create tensions and ethical dilemmas within the firm.

  Notable Quote:

  Sarah Rafferty [16:57]: "It's a visual medium... everybody who is just waking up on suits, whose female has had an hour and a half blowout ironing and some fake lashes put on and some lip gloss."

• Performance Highlights: Patrick and Sarah commend the performances of Gary Cole (Cameron Dennis) and Rick Hoffman (Louis Litt), emphasizing their ability to bring depth and authenticity to their roles. They highlight specific scenes, such as Louis’s adept handling of courtroom banter and Harvey’s intense confrontations.

  Notable Quote:

  Sarah Rafferty [18:29]: "Gabriel pulled it off better. He's doing a lot of look, it's hard to work with sunglasses in television."

Themes and Analysis

Mentorship and Conflict: The episode delves deep into the mentor-mentee relationship between Harvey and Cameron. Harvey grapples with loyalty to his mentor while confronting the unethical practices Cameron employs, such as burying evidence to secure convictions. This internal conflict highlights Harvey's struggle between personal loyalty and professional integrity.

Moral Compass: Donna's role as Harvey's moral compass is accentuated as she stands firmly against Cameron's actions. Her unwavering support and ethical stance provide a counterbalance to Harvey's dilemmas, showcasing her pivotal role within the firm.

Character Development: The hosts emphasize the significant character development in this episode, particularly for Harvey. His interactions with Cameron force him to reevaluate his own values and the direction in which his career is heading. This introspection sets the stage for future conflicts and growth throughout the series.

Behind-the-Scenes Stories

Sarah and Patrick share anecdotes from the filming process, including humorous moments and challenges faced during specific scenes. They highlight the collaborative efforts with director Mike Smith and appreciation for fellow cast members, enhancing the listeners' understanding of the show's production dynamics.

Notable Quote:

Patrick J. Adams [21:07]: "When he puts them on. When he gets out of the car and he puts them on, there's a meal made."

Performance Praises

Throughout the episode, both hosts laud the actors' performances, particularly focusing on Gary Cole's portrayal of Cameron Dennis and Rick Hoffman's nuanced acting as Louis Litt. They discuss how these performances contribute to the depth and realism of the series.

Notable Quote:

Sarah Rafferty [25:27]: "And I've got to shout out Alicia. She's so great in this scene."

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

1. Patrick J. Adams [05:50]: "Today we are breaking down Season 1, Episode 11, Rules of the Game."
2. Mike Smith [08:36]: "I remember being very excited to try out this new show called Suits in Toronto... it could really be a really fun show if it goes."
3. Sarah Rafferty [16:57]: "Everybody who is just waking up on suits, whose female has had an hour and a half blowout ironing and some fake lashes put on and some lip gloss."
4. Patrick J. Adams [21:07]: "When he puts them on, there's a meal made."
5. Sarah Rafferty [25:27]: "And I've got to shout out Alicia. She's so great in this scene."

Conclusion

Patrick and Sarah conclude the episode by reflecting on the significant developments and cliffhangers introduced in "Rules of the Game." They express excitement for the upcoming final episode of the season, anticipating deeper serialized storytelling and character arcs.

[70:57] Sarah Rafferty: "We will see you next week. Thanks so much for tuning in."

[72:17] They encourage listeners to engage with the podcast by sending questions and leaving reviews, fostering a community around their shared love for Suits.

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Key Takeaways:

• "Rules of the Game" serves as a pivotal episode that explores themes of loyalty, mentorship, and ethical dilemmas within the high-stakes environment of corporate law.
• The dynamic between Harvey Specter and his former mentor Cameron Dennis underscores the complexities of professional relationships and personal values.
• Donna Paulsen's unwavering moral stance plays a crucial role in guiding Harvey through his conflicts, highlighting her importance in the firm's ethical framework.
• Exceptional performances by Gary Cole and Rick Hoffman elevate the episode, adding depth and authenticity to the narrative.

Notable Themes:

• Ethics in Law: The episode scrutinizes the lengths to which characters will go to win cases, raising questions about moral boundaries in the legal profession.
• Personal Growth: Harvey’s internal struggle signifies a journey toward self-awareness and ethical realignment.
• Support Systems: The strength of personal bonds, exemplified by Donna's support, is portrayed as essential for navigating professional turmoil.

Overall Impression: Patrick J. Adams and Sarah Rafferty provide an insightful and thorough analysis of "Rules of the Game," blending character exploration with behind-the-scenes anecdotes. Their discussion not only sheds light on the episode's pivotal moments but also enhances listeners' appreciation for the intricate storytelling and character development that Suits offers.

Transcript

[Sarah Rafferty]

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[Patrick J. Adams]

2025 by learning a new language Rosetta Stone's Immersive Lessons Guide you to think in a new language from day one. I personally am so excited to be diving into Rosetta Stone this holiday season. I finally have some quiet time because you know what? My daughters who are in French immersion are already speaking French, and I have no idea what they're saying. And my wife speaks French and I should speak French as a Canadian, and I don't. And I've been finally able to take a look at Rosetta Stone, and I can tell it's going to be exactly how I can continue to communicate with my kids as they learn new languages today. Sidebar Listeners can take advantage of Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for 50% off. Visit rosetta stone.com sidebar that's 50% off. Unlimited lifetime access to 25 language courses@rosetta stone.com sidebar how do we feel about the driverless cars right now? The waymos everywhere. I want to ride one. I'm going to ride one like this week. It's one of my goals. Could you buy it? Sorry, weird thought, but like, could I just buy a Waymo? And then it just drives me everywhere. And I have a driver and I never have to drive again.

[Sarah Rafferty]

I think. Wouldn't you hate to not be in control of your car?

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yeah, I do have a control issue, but like, it's a theoretical thing. Thanks for pointing it out. This episode brought to you by BetterHelp. Let's bottle this energy and create some podcasts. Go.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Hi everyone. Welcome to Sidebar a Suits Watch podcast.

[Patrick J. Adams]

My name is Sarah Rafferty, and I'm Patrick Adams. We were both actors on the TV show Suits, but this is first time actually watching the show.

[Sarah Rafferty]

And this week we watched Season 1, Episode 11, Rules of the Game. But before we dive in, how are you, Patrick?

[Patrick J. Adams]

You know, listeners, you'll be listening to this a Little bit later. But we are recording this at a pretty strange moment.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Yeah. We're here in Los Angeles.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yeah. And this is. You know, I think we both. I'm so grateful to have something to do other than be worried and thinking about what's happening right now. So that's the energy I want to have today. But, yeah, I think it's important to acknowledge that we are still in the aftermath of this really horrific event that has affected just so many people. Everyone in the city, really. If you weren't directly affected, you are very close to someone who was and who continues to be affected, and it's going to be a long haul. And it's just a really strange time in the city, as I'm sure you.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Yes. And I think, you know, maybe we'll be able to speak to it better later when we've had more time to process. One thing I can attempt to do, though, is to thank you and Troian Patrick, because during last week, when we were going back and forth about our evacuations, you were always there for me to tether me to a place for a place to go, to be with you and your family and your friends and your dogs, and for me to bring my family and dogs and friends to join you. And that was, like, immeasurable. I just can't thank you enough for that.

[Patrick J. Adams]

What we're talking about, listener, is I wasn't actually evacuated, but we lost power for a significant amount of time. And so we decided to get out of our neighborhood. And we had Sarah and her girls come and visit us and be with us while we waited for the power to come back and while it was safe. I think your house was a lot closer to danger than mine was at the time.

[Sarah Rafferty]

I think what I just do wanna say, though, is one of the things. There are so many obvious things that I was grateful for, but I love that in the middle of the night, I can bring you the worst version of me and you and Troian and your friends and Kiki will throw your arms around me and mine, and that is one of life's greatest blessings.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yeah. Well, you're welcome. And thank you for trusting me, and thanks for coming and hanging out with us. And I'm really happy we're safe, and I'm really. I think we're both committed to, you know, whatever the next steps are in the city. There's a lot of work in the city.

[Sarah Rafferty]

So much.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yeah, there's a lot of work. It's been. You know, while it has been a horrific time, it has brought out a side of the city that I haven't seen in a while, which is like people immediately pivoting to working so hard for each other, volunteering, giving everything that they can, opening up their doors. It's been kind of profound to see that. So I wish we didn't have to go through something like this to see it, but I am happy that it's happening. Anyway, we don't want to spend too much time on that. But listener, that is where we are coming from.

[Sarah Rafferty]

And today we have a moment to escape and celebrate this. So we're going to talk about Rules of the Game.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Today we are breaking down Season 1, Episode 11, Rules of the Game. This episode was written by John Cowan and directed by Mike Smith. And it originally aired on Thursday, September 1, 2011.

[Sarah Rafferty]

And in this episode, Harvey's former mentor, once mentor. Harvey's former mentor.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Mentor. What is right? You'll see. Listener, mentor plays a big part in this. But what do you guys say?

[Sarah Rafferty]

I don't think there's right.

[Patrick J. Adams]

There's not right or wrong. There just is.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Yeah. Okay. So in this episode, Harvey's former mentor wants help when his office is investigated while Mike and Lewis try to settle a mogul's estate.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Some quick facts from our firm's best researcher. The shoot dates were July 25 to August 3, 2011. Episode 106, Tricks of the Trade, aired on July 28 while we were shooting. Mike Smith is tied with Anton Cropper for directing the most episodes of suits at 17 episodes a piece. That is insane. Wow. I didn't realize that. I'm learning that in this moment. Over the weekend, we all attended us, the cast, the 2011 summer TCA press tour. Patrick, Gabriel, Rick, Sarah, and Megan all attended the NBC All Star TCA party on August 1st at the SLS Hotel in Beverly Hills. You remember that party? Well, I mean, it goes down in the record books of greatest parties you've ever been to.

[Sarah Rafferty]

I felt so sick.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Tell us the story from that party.

[Sarah Rafferty]

I felt so sick.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Tell us what it was like.

[Sarah Rafferty]

I felt so sick. I did the photo booth.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Wait, did you actually remember?

[Sarah Rafferty]

Oh, yeah, I totally remember.

[Patrick J. Adams]

God, I have no memory of this.

[Sarah Rafferty]

And I remember being. I remember, you know, showing and being like, what do I wear on a red carpet? Cause I don't want anybody to know.

[Patrick J. Adams]

How pregnant are you at this point?

[Sarah Rafferty]

Yeah, Right now?

[Patrick J. Adams]

Right in this moment. Guys, we have a sidebar secret.

[Sarah Rafferty]

What is this date?

[Patrick J. Adams]

How pregnant like, we are? What are we? It's July. August. Think August 1, 2011.

[Sarah Rafferty]

When was she born January 26?

[Patrick J. Adams]

You have five months to go, so you're four months pregnant.

[Sarah Rafferty]

So I feel. I feel like ass.

[Patrick J. Adams]

You're not feeling good?

[Sarah Rafferty]

No.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Is that. You don't feel good when you're pregnant?

[Sarah Rafferty]

Let me just get you pregnant real quick.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Let me text Troy. And she never. Oh, no. She felt terrible all the time. Right? That's right. Okay, got it. Anyway, before we even start today, I reached out to Mike Smith to see if he had anything he wanted to say because this is his first episode. He's in fact, in town prepping to direct Suits la. So he sent a message that I have not listened to yet, so we could listen to it together live. So you wanna play it?

[Sarah Rafferty]

And he could be our opening statement. Let's hear it. Mike's here.

[Patrick J. Adams]

What do you have to say?

[Sarah Rafferty]

I'm passing you the mic. Mike.

[Mike Smith]

Rules of the game. Wow.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Hi.

[Mike Smith]

Is Mike Smith. And just saying hi. Much love, Patrick and Sarah. I remember being very excited to try out this new show called Suits in Toronto and hoping that it went. And I got the second to last episode, which I was very excited about, and meeting the cast and shooting. And a couple specific scenes I do remember. I remember there's a scene where Mike is waiting to talk to Donna about Harvey at her desk, and she is typing away, ignoring him. And it was just a fun little charming scene that then turned into a much more serious tone when Harvey approaches and Donna realizes she has to protect him. And we told a lot without actually saying it overtly, which I always liked. And I remember having a lot of fun with Patrick and Sarah while filming that. And I remember thinking, wow, this could really be a really fun show if it goes. Because the actors do an amazing job of the combination of, you know, drama and comedy. I remember, God, I remember Patrick trying on his. Putting on his tie in the mirror with Bond Lazenby. I think he and I joked about that. I do remember talking to Patrick about some notes in my script, because I could see he perked up when I was trying to explain how I directed and my blocking process. And then he and I spoke in that off season about maybe he would shadow me the next season, which, in fact, he did for 201. Actually, Saharu, I think, of the entire cast, was the only one I knew before. We had crossed paths a year or two prior in New York on a Law and Order episode. So she was sort of the one person I knew before the show started. Um, but the cast was great. It really was an amazing experience. And I Was really, really proud of that episode. And of all. Of all the episodes I did, I would say that one was definitely the first. All right, I hope the timing of that joke worked. I don't know if it translates on voice. Anyway, miss you guys. Love you guys and hope to see you both soon.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yay. Mike Smith. So good to hear his voice.

[Sarah Rafferty]

We need to have him on sidebar more often. Like, thank you for that. That's perfect. Opening statements.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yes. I feel like we covered everything. Definitely have to have him. Maybe it would have been right to do it on this, but now that I see he's done 17 episodes, we got lots of time, all the time in the world. Thank you, Mike, for that message.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Thank you so much.

[Patrick J. Adams]

And everything he said is so right on him. And I don't think we even need to do a podcast. No, I think we could just.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Goodbye, guys. Thank you so much. Nailed it.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Thank you.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Wait, so how did he remember all that?

[Patrick J. Adams]

He's pretty good. He remembers things. Mike is. Mike Smith's background is as a first ad. He came up in the Dick Wolf world, so he's been. He works in the, I think now in the Dick Wolf world as a director, but he came up for years and years and years as a first ad, so he's got that kind of, like, amazing brain. A first AD listener is the person on set who's basically in charge of. If the director's, like, the creative visionary, the first idea is the one that's making sure everything happens. So it's a very important job.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Sidebar sidebar. Speaking of the Dick Wolf world.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yes.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Tell me how Troian's show is. I cannot wait to watch it. I think it launched this week.

[Patrick J. Adams]

So good. She is so good. She's so good. She's such a good actor. It's, like, kind of intimidating. I know, I know. We're in our lives, like, raising babies and making pancakes and trying to get our kids dressed. And then I watch the show and it's like, holy God. Like, I'm. I'm married to, like, such a powerhouse. She's amazing on the show. The show is called On Call. Yes, it's on Amazon. It's a Dick Wolf show, a half hour cop show. She plays this sort of training police officer, but I'm getting all these text messages and messages thinking I'm about to get compliments, but I'm flooded with compliments about my wife and how amazing she is. So everyone's absolutely right. She's incredible. We hope you watch the show. If you're out there. Check it out on call on Amazon. And we're excited to have her on this eventually too.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Can't wait. Okay, so let's dive into this episode. So we open and Jenny is watching Mike get ready for work in his apartment. You guys have a little run about Bond here.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Bond moment.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Just a quick question. Does your friend Sarah know anything about Bond films?

[Patrick J. Adams]

Do you know anything about. Do you know anything about Bonfill? Do I know.

[Sarah Rafferty]

No. Do you think you're friend Sarah?

[Patrick J. Adams]

I think you know nothing about James Bond.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Who is Lazenby?

[Patrick J. Adams]

George Lazenby. He played James Bond in one film. He's only one film.

[Sarah Rafferty]

When? Ish. Like, who was he sandwiched between as Bonds? And was he a good Bond? And why only one?

[Patrick J. Adams]

Well, I think maybe he was not a beloved Bond.

[Sarah Rafferty]

I have never heard that name before.

[Patrick J. Adams]

You've never heard of George Lazenby ever.

[Sarah Rafferty]

But I bet there's things that I've heard of that you haven't.

[Patrick J. Adams]

When we're done with suits, can we do a Bond rewatch?

[Sarah Rafferty]

Okay, Kimmy, write that one down. Add it to the list. So I have a. I have a. I have a quibble right off the bat. Yeah, go.

[Patrick J. Adams]

What?

[Sarah Rafferty]

Sorry, why? It's a fashion police moment for me.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Well, see, this is stuff I don't know anything about, so we'll just pivot right into this.

[Sarah Rafferty]

I get. I get this. I get this. I get that women on the TV shows are always wearing the man's. Oh, you don't like that business shirt. We've already seen this season, Scottie, be in a shirt or do that. And we're gonna see it a lot again. And we've seen it a lot on tv. And honestly, I don't get it. I just don't get it.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Have you ever worn a man's shirt in the morning?

[Sarah Rafferty]

Not really. It's not. I mean, maybe a teeny shirt.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Don't lie to me. Don't you lie to me.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Wear nothing in the morning.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Oh, damn. You have worn in the past. You have worn. Santu gets dressed up. He has nice shirts. You've never put on a dress shirt in the morning?

[Sarah Rafferty]

I mean, I don't know. I can't remember that far back. It was a long time ago, my friend. Let me go back to 1994.

[Patrick J. Adams]

19.

[Sarah Rafferty]

I wore some rollerblades in 94.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Here's the thing I totally get.

[Sarah Rafferty]

It's very male gazing. It's. I don't get the. It's. I don't think it's that Cute. Like, I feel like she would be in an old T shirt of yours that has, like, a band on it. I don't know.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Suits, though, you know? And yes, I agree. I 100% agree.

[Sarah Rafferty]

She looks amazing.

[Patrick J. Adams]

I have a bigger. I don't mind it, because maybe I'm a man and it's a male gaze, and I'm like, oh, that's cute. And maybe there's something sort of. I don't know. There's. Maybe it's complicated. The hair is what gets me in TV shows when people have, like, the perfect. Because I. Before I did a TV show, I don't think I understood what went into making a woman's hair look the way her hair looks in the scene. That's like time. That takes an hour and a half in a. In a makeup chair. And so when I see that on TV now and I see someone who's just woken up and I know they've been in a makeup chair for an hour and a half, that's where it takes me out of that.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Yeah. So female listeners, do not be gaslit by suits. Everybody who is just waking up on suits, whose female has had an hour and a half blowout ironing and some fake lashes put on and some lip gloss. So do not think that you're supposed.

[Patrick J. Adams]

To wake up like that, too. Like, makeup's one thing. Cause I guess we're on TV and everybody's makeup. But also the hair is so perfect.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Yes. So that being said, when I have to wake up on tv, I want to look like that. Yeah, there you go.

[Patrick J. Adams]

That's what happens. Because you get to. You get to work. You're like, I'm not going to be that person. And you're like, no, no, no, no, I don't. I want to look amazing.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Also the producers. But it's not the. The producers demand it, too.

[Patrick J. Adams]

There's not a question. You don't get to show up and be like, hey, do you want to look like a mess today? Or a perfect. You go and you get their makeup.

[Sarah Rafferty]

It's a much bigger conversation, though, too, which we won't get into today. But, like, it is. I have been asked in very serious conversations about, like, how we all looked on suits and is that. And what does that mean? And I was like, this is a much bigger question for society, because one of the things that we need to get the ratings and get the be come a beloved character is to also consider how everybody looks.

[Patrick J. Adams]

It's a visual medium.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Well, there's. But there's other Cultures. You watch British TV and it's not. I don't think there's a two and a half hour blowout all the time. It's a different kind of show. This show was about being slick and that sort of thing. And we do have grittier stuff here now. But I'm just saying.

[Patrick J. Adams]

I agree.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Okay, but I think what's important in this scene is that this is where Jenny says that she wants to have a double date with Rachel.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Right? Very important. Yes.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Right. When Mike is on his way to work.

[Patrick J. Adams]

So it's not going to go well. I can just tell that's not a good idea.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Maybe.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yeah, maybe. Because I shot it already and I know. But as a viewer, this is not great.

[Sarah Rafferty]

So Mike.

[Patrick J. Adams]

And why is she doing it? What is she doing? I mean, she knows it's not going to. This is a real test. It's. I don't like it in relationships when people are playing games and they're both playing games here. I don't like it as. I know it's good. It's good television. It's dramatic. But I'm like, come on, guys. People are not saying what they feel.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Says the guy who plays Mike, who's saying he's didn't just tell. There's nothing going on.

[Patrick J. Adams]

I know, I know. I'm frustrated. Okay, then you're frustrated with myself.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Anyway, Mike pulls up in a taxi to meet Harvey and they meet Cameron Dennis, the district attorney. So this is a great intro to a great character that we're gonna see for 10 whole episod. And is played by the great Gary Cole. So Gabriel, look, Gabriel, there's a couple of Torres awards that I'm gonna have to give out.

[Patrick J. Adams]

But today you're gonna give Gabriel a Torres award in this episode, in this scene. Oh, wow, this is great. Let's get into it. Is it? Cause he gets outta the cab and he does a little swagger.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Well, he's got some swaggity waggedy, but like he's got some sunglasses on and he does some good sunglasses work. I feel like his sunglasses work in those moments with Cameron Dennis in this scene.

[Patrick J. Adams]

He's doing a lot of strong absolve.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Hollywood of all the David Carruthers.

[Patrick J. Adams]

I'm gonna do some.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Hold on, wait second. Listen to what I said. It absolves Hollywood of all of David Caruso's sunglasses since. But Gabriel pulled it off better.

[Patrick J. Adams]

He's doing a lot of look, it's hard to work with sunglasses in television. Like you think, oh, I'm gonna Wear sunglasses in the scene. But then when a camera's pointed at you, you're like, I'm wearing sunglasses. I'm wearing sunglasses. I'm wearing sunglasses. I need to take off sunglasses. And so you end up making a meal of a thing that in real life, you just take them on and off. You don't think about it.

[Sarah Rafferty]

I don't think he made a meal. I think he did a James Bond. I think he looked like James Bond.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Hold it up. Show the receipts. No, no, no. Actually have to pull it up. But if you do, he. He makes.

[Sarah Rafferty]

He deserved it. I mean, he.

[Patrick J. Adams]

When he puts them on. When he gets out of the car and he puts them on, there's a meal made. And when he takes them off, there's a meal made. And I'm saying that you can't not make a meal of it when you have. It's so hard for me at least to, like, play sunglasses. And he's playing sunglasses.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Gabriel mocked for James Bond.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yep. Yeah, good call. I mean, for sure. The American Bond.

[Sarah Rafferty]

He did play a superhero. And I feel like Gabriel mock for James Bond and you for, like. I think you should be like, on the next Taylor Sheridan.

[Patrick J. Adams]

No Q show. See what you did.

[Sarah Rafferty]

That reminds me of when they were trying to cast Christian Grey, though, when Patrick's name was in the hat in public for maybe being Christian Grey. Do you guys remember that?

[Patrick J. Adams]

I don't remember that. With 50 shades of grey.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Oh, my God. That I would have never been able to watch. Would you have been able to do all that? I haven't watched, actually. Whatever. 29 shades of grey.

[Patrick J. Adams]

I would have been a worst person. That would have been.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Oh, we loved it at usa.

[Patrick J. Adams]

The worst. The worst.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Which I don't want.

[Patrick J. Adams]

There would never be a more uncomfortable.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Actor on set, but accessing your sexuality while you're being filmed. I mean, I guess we can't really put this on here, but, like, oh, my goodness. I mean, I guess it's really hard.

[Patrick J. Adams]

I've done a lot of only fans.

[Sarah Rafferty]

But beyond only fans, I'm always awful.

[Patrick J. Adams]

And I never feel comfortable. I definitely don't feel sexy. Anyway, we digress.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Let's talk about feeling sexy.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Let's talk about feeling sexy.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Welcome to the menopause, Matt.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Anyway, gary Cole, feeling 50 and sexy. We love Gary Cole. It's great to see him. I actually. The pilot that I shot with Megan that I've talked about, Gary Cole was in it. He played my dad. And so I'd worked with Gary before. Loved working with Gary, like, first conversation I ever had with Gary. I was with a young actor, and I was, like, so excited. And I knew who Gary Cole was, too. And I was like, hey, so how are you feeling? Like, so cool, right? Getting to do this. Like, we're doing a pilot. Isn't this great? I remember, like, we're outside the trailers, and he was just like, oh, no, no, no. It wasn't that. He wasn't excited. He was like, I've done a thousand of these. Like. Like, he's like, I don't get. I don't. He's like, good. Yeah, Yeah. I don't do it. I don't do it. Like, excited. He was just like, I just. We just do the job.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Yes.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Such a pro. Like, he's such a pro. Shows up. He's like, I don't buy into the. Like, this is a thing, and it's gonna be great. Or this is not. Like, he's like, I just show up and do my job, and we'll see what happens. And that pilot was a total disaster. And so I went up and then way down, and I always thought of Gary Cole right in the middle. Take care of himself, do his job.

[Sarah Rafferty]

I had an interesting moment like that when I did a play reading of a new play with Ted Danson and Mary Steenburgen and played one of their kids in it. And I remember when we were about to do the first performance of it, I loved this about Ted Danson. He, like, came over to me and he put his arm around me, and of course, I was like, it's really like, if I don't see you again, like, it was such an honor. Oh, my gosh. And he was like, we get to do this. We got to do this, and now I know you. And this was great. And he was, like, wagging his tail just like I was inside. And it was the sweetest thing. Like, this. He was just being. I can't explain it. Like, Ted Danson was saying that to me. I was like, but you're Ted Danson. I know you, bro. Like, this is.

[Patrick J. Adams]

I guess this was sort of the opposite with Gary Cole, where I was like, come on, Gary. This is great. We get to do it. And Gary was like, we're just doing our job here. We're just doing our job. Yeah. Yeah.

[Sarah Rafferty]

What I did wasn't tv, but it's what I needed.

[Patrick J. Adams]

That's what you needed. And this is what I needed in this was like, calm down. Just, you're good. You're gonna be great. Just calm down. Like, don't don't, don't put all this into don't put all your eggs in this basket.

[Sarah Rafferty]

And Ted Danson was like, put wag your tail as hard as you can right now because this is.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Well, it's a play reading too.

[Sarah Rafferty]

This was like, yeah, we weren't getting paid or whatever it was. Yeah, it was.

[Patrick J. Adams]

When you're doing a pilot, you're like, what is going to come of this? Is this going to make us?

[Sarah Rafferty]

What's the result? What's the result?

[Patrick J. Adams]

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[Patrick J. Adams]

Mike finds Rachel chatting with Kyle at Pearson Hardman. Once they are alone, Mike proposes the double dates. We last saw Ben Hollingsworth in the mock trial episode.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Yes, we see Ben Hollingsworth. And then this is the scene that leads into finding out that Harvey does not have ADA on his bio. But we do get an adorable photo of Gabriel, who is actually in a skinny tie.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Don't worry. We will be posting that photo to our socials every week for the next three years.

[Sarah Rafferty]

I remember his parents had to send it, I think, and I think it was like his graduation from college.

[Patrick J. Adams]

How did he feel about it? I mean, it's a great photo. It's a funny.

[Sarah Rafferty]

He looks so great. It's so cute.

[Patrick J. Adams]

So we do find out. Yes, you're right. In the scene that he was an assistant district attorney. Well, I guess we found out in the scene before when Gary Cole told us, but, yes, this was a secret. We did not know that he worked. Right. We didn't know. We didn't know that he worked as a district. An assistant district attorney. We didn't know anything about Cameron Dennis. So we're learning new things about Harvey.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Yeah.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Anyway, we're into act one.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Yes, we are. And Jessica presents our case of the week. A longtime client has died. Harvey and Lewis have to work out the will between the client's feuding daughters.

[Patrick J. Adams]

What? What's going on?

[Sarah Rafferty]

Do you want to start?

[Patrick J. Adams]

What is going on here?

[Sarah Rafferty]

This is a great scene.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Fantastic scene.

[Sarah Rafferty]

There's so much goodness to talk about. I'm gonna guess that Aaron wasn't into Jessica's look in this scene. And that is why at later dates, we had to make some adjustments in. In our looks. I think she.

[Patrick J. Adams]

But this look is.

[Sarah Rafferty]

She looks incredible.

[Patrick J. Adams]

She looks incredible because Gina could not look not incredible, but it is a different look. The thing that had a tough time with is the ring, which looks like a prop from Napoleon or something. It's so big, and it's so present. And as soon as it's up under her face, I'm not hearing anything anybody saying anymore. It's. It's. I just have nothing but questions about the ring. I want to know what's inside of it. I want to know how many spirits are kept in there, how you unlock the curse. I want to know everything that's going on with this ring.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Well, I think this triggered in me an idea of why we started to get a lot of notes around these things. I think we had a lot of notes all along when we were building something. And then we're still at the place where we're trying new things. And I do remember in later episodes, any kind of statement jewelry for me was taken away.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Statement jewelry? See, this is great. This is an education. Oh, I mean, I just wouldn't know to call it statement jewelry.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Hey, babe, what else do you want me to educate you about?

[Patrick J. Adams]

A wool offline?

[Sarah Rafferty]

There's.

[Patrick J. Adams]

It's a good thing to note the ring. The great ring of rules of the game.

[Sarah Rafferty]

So at the end of this scene, Rick. Rick and Gabriel have some incredible banter. And of course, I went immediately to the script because, yes, Rick was improving. Can we pull up the moment where he talks about shining shoes? So you each get a sister.

[Mike Smith]

You think pitting us against each other.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Is fair to Lewis's client? Please. Dividing financial assets. You couldn't shine my shoes. Someone should. Well, actually, I personally shine my own shoes, so there you go. Lucky then. How come you always ask Donna. Donna. By the way, those are really nice shoes that Lewis has on.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Gentlemen.

[Patrick J. Adams]

All of that. Look at.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Look at Gabriel's face. You know, that was so funny because Gabriel was like, I'm gonna laugh, so I better just go back to the document.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yeah, you can't. But also, like, I can't. I'm gonna laugh, and I can't top it. Like, I can't stay in this long enough.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Cannot be topped.

[Patrick J. Adams]

You can't out gun Rick Hoffman when he's on a tear.

[Sarah Rafferty]

And Rick Hoffman does the thing where he often is like, yeah, well, you know, there was a time where we. You know, it's like almost like the band camp. That time at band camp. He's so funny with that. We do it all the time. So I think this is gonna get. Like, he won't break too.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Like, we haven't talked about that. But, like, you know, Rick is a great. He's very funny. Obviously, he's a great improv. And he just won't break. Like, he'll go. Like, if you go back and forth.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Remember that time with Donna when she shined your shoes and you got the splidges on the bottom of your.

[Patrick J. Adams]

You'll keep doing it. And then you're like, I can't keep going. So, anyway, great. Yep. Great scene. Harvey and Mike meet Kelsey, played by Alex Paxton Beasley, while Lewis meets with Maddie, played by Megan Follenbach.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Tell me about the thing you noticed about Rick's performance right here.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Oh, yeah. When he's standing outside the office, Rick does this thing with his pink. You've seen it before. You know exactly what I'm talking about. When you see it, where he just sort of tenderly grabs the tip of his pinky.

[Sarah Rafferty]

It's so brilliant.

[Patrick J. Adams]

And he does it a lot. And I'm curious to track where he does it because I feel like it's a very specific. Something's going on for Lewis Litt whenever he does that. Sort of like he's been called on something, but he's being. He's like at a plan. I don't know. There's just. It's only at a specific time he'll do it, but he'll do it quite a bit.

[Sarah Rafferty]

And it always makes you laugh, and it makes me laugh. But it's also Lewis. It's not Rick at all. I've never seen Rick.

[Patrick J. Adams]

I don't think I've ever seen him do that.

[Sarah Rafferty]

But I will say the thing that he did at the end of that scene where he says, and when Donna shines your shoes or whatever, I hear Rick do a lot like that makes us laugh when we're hanging out with Rick. But this is definitely a Lewis character trait that never, never comes up. It's so good. Here we go. Mike asks Donna about Harvey's time working at the DA's office.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Together again.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Wow.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Together forever. Sorry. That's very spontaneous. I don't even know what song that is.

[Sarah Rafferty]

That's from Annie.

[Patrick J. Adams]

You are a musical again. Together forever. Real Hannigan vibe. You should play Miss Hannigan.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Nobody should play Miss Hannigan. Carol Bruno played Miss Hannigan. It is done.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Or Annie, but older. Like a geriatric. Geriatric Annie. We need a sequel.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Okay.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Anyway, I love to see us together. And I love when we get scenes together, we should have a sound. We need a sound effect when we get a scene together. You're those girls. Iconic moments. So funny. But for me, it's the typing, which I don't. I remember those girls, actually, this line, but I forgot that you're continuing to type as you turn to say it.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Am I?

[Patrick J. Adams]

You didn't notice that? Well, my question is, is she actually typing or is it. Is it just to Be. Is Donna being funny?

[Sarah Rafferty]

Oh, so this is the scene that Mike was talking about.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yeah. And what are we talking about? The Price sisters. Those girls. I wonder if you were typing, or did they put that sound effect in, like. I think you were continuing to type.

[Sarah Rafferty]

I was continuing to type out of, like, nervousness. It also has a stage direction that she's typing when you interrupt her and that she doesn't stop, like, out of kind of rudeness, like, it's not a good time for me. But then that those girls wasn't in there, so it's not in the script.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Improv. I love that it was improv. Lewis visits Harvey's office to work out the. Here we go. Rules of the game. Wow. I was like, are we doing that? This is a great scene. This might be one of my favorite scenes of the episode. It's fun to watch. Gabriel and Rick are so. When they're cooking so good. There's a great little section right at the top of this scene where you walk in, you say, her Majesty's here to see you. Lewis says, I heard that. You say you were meant to. Harvey says, you, Highness. And it's perfection. Perfect. And it's delivered perfectly. It's very natural. It's very quick. It's just like. It's. It's like a masterclass, and in timing. And you can see other moments in our show where we, like, try and replicate that, and it doesn't work. And I can't figure out why when it doesn't work sometimes.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Let's look at it real quick.

[Patrick J. Adams]

That's why you better be three steps ahead of him, because I can guarantee you, Lewis will be two steps ahead of you.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Speak of the devil. Her Majesty's here to see you.

[Patrick J. Adams]

I heard that.

[Sarah Rafferty]

You were meant to.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Gentlemen, you, Highness. Okay, you know what? So good.

[Sarah Rafferty]

It's quick, I think. I think the editor really helps with that. But you know what I think makes that work? It's on an entrance. It's moving. Everybody's moving.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yeah.

[Sarah Rafferty]

So there's just, like, the energy of coming into the room. All of that happening makes it kind of thrown away, getting to the next thing, and it just works perfectly. Like a little play.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Really funny.

[Sarah Rafferty]

So your name is on one of those balls.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Oh, yeah. When he holds up the baseball, do we think he's intentionally holding it up? Is my signature, like, very clearly.

[Sarah Rafferty]

I saw that.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Holding it.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Patrick J. Adams.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yeah, it was.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Do you have a J in your signature?

[Patrick J. Adams]

My signature is a mess. It's an unholy mess.

[Sarah Rafferty]

This should Be different all the time. For security reasons.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yeah. This is no longer my signature. To be very clear.

[Sarah Rafferty]

We're gonna cut this part.

[Patrick J. Adams]

No, no, but it's. It did make. I paused. I paused. I was like, there I am. Look, there I am. My character finds his way to that weird recliner seat we used to have. Like, a joke whenever we're doing blocking. Who could get into that seat? Like, find a way to make it look organic because it's such a ridiculous chair.

[Sarah Rafferty]

It's a Restoration Hardware chaise that has this, like, cool shape where your. The back of your knees are kind of supported and your butt goes down.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Like one of those gravity chairs or whatever. But. And it's a great chair, but it's not something. And in the context of an office, it doesn't make sense. Like, it looks great, but you could never. Like, you would never walk into that room and find Harvey on his giant leather chaise reading a document. It would not look right. And so we just are always trying to find ways to get into it. I think I succeeded in this. It doesn't draw too much attention to itself.

[Sarah Rafferty]

You did. I loved that shirt. And I feel like I remember that it was St. John.

[Patrick J. Adams]

This is your shirt that you're wearing?

[Sarah Rafferty]

Yeah, yeah. It's like this olive green ruffly.

[Patrick J. Adams]

You've got some moments in this. You got some dark green moments in this. I got one coming up big time.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Let's go then. So we're into Act 2.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Harvey arrives. Let's do it together at the same time. Go. Harvey arrives to meet Cameron, runs into New York Assistant Attorney General Alexandra Leeds. They're building a case against Cameron. They want Harvey's help. Alexandra reveals that they will. They will subpoena Harvey.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Oh, wow. Alexandra Leeds, played by Alicia Coppola.

[Patrick J. Adams]

She's great.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Oh, my God, she's crushing it. So in this scene, we find out that Cameron systematically buried evidence to get convictions. This is really such a great setup for Gary. Playing the right. Just the right amount of slickness and kind of God complex and smarminess, but also curiosity because he's so committed to the fact that he believes that he's doing the right thing.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Right. I think it's really interesting that he's elevated just like, blocking wise. He's on the second floor. Like, when they walk into this restaurant, he's like a. It's almost like a God. He's got this, like, he's sitting high.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Yeah.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Harvey's looking up to him. Little detail.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Oh, that's so interesting. And so Harvey Here says, when push comes to shove, I won't perjure myself. Not even for you. So there's this loyalty thing. And I'm curious. Why is he so loyal to this guy? What is this about? I mean, that's where we find out.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Well, yeah, but it's Harvey's thing too, don't you think? Like. Like with the people who brought him up. He's fiercely loyal. I mean, I guess we've only seen it in Jessica, but we see it in Jessica. Like, I would.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Yeah.

[Patrick J. Adams]

He would never turn on her. Even if she had done something wrong. He wouldn't.

[Sarah Rafferty]

But she's turned. He's turned on her by hiring Mike.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Right. Which is the conflict of this episode.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Which is what Tina talked about, too.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yeah, like, he's done this horrible thing.

[Sarah Rafferty]

We didn't necessarily talk enough about how the whole. What a huge betrayal it was for Jessica that you existed.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Right. I think he believes. I mean, it'd be great to have a conversation with Gabriel about it, but the impression I get is that he would probably believe. We'll figure it out. We'll get you legit. You know, like. Like all great lies. I will sort it out. No one will get hurt.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Right?

[Patrick J. Adams]

Right. Like, it will figure out a way to make it good that no one gets hurt again.

[Sarah Rafferty]

You haven't seen Dear Evan Hansen?

[Patrick J. Adams]

No, but I have lied.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Oh, you have.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Just once.

[Sarah Rafferty]

What happened?

[Patrick J. Adams]

Lying. It's not good. Turns out, doesn't work. I just got hot. You did?

[Sarah Rafferty]

Were you. Were you triggered?

[Patrick J. Adams]

No, no, I've lied all the time. You've never lied.

[Sarah Rafferty]

I'm perfect.

[Patrick J. Adams]

You've lied, but it feels like you.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Are pregnant with a big story.

[Patrick J. Adams]

No, no, there's no actual great story. I wish there were, but, I mean, yeah, I've lied a ton in my life, and it never works out, but you do it oftentimes. It's usually selfish as well. But you're like, I can figure it out. I'll solve it. So I think he probably figures he could get out of it. Much like maybe Cameron felt, but, like, this is real deal. Like, they're dealing with some pretty horrible situations where people are getting hurt.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Are you talking about white lies for yourself? Like these. You didn't. You haven't done this, Cameron.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Well, I haven't lied to put someone in prison for the rest of their life. No, that's. That's a different thing. Except that one time. That one time.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Except that one time. Except that one time.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Taki, thanks for. For finding. There is a deleted scene, which I'M glad I'm not crazy, because I thought I remembered shooting a scene that I wasn't seeing in this episode. Mike visits the newspaper. Nothing but the truth with Kelsey. It was an expensive scene to cut because it was a huge production design, and it did not make it into the episode. Donna brings Harvey the subpoena to testify against Cameron. Harvey asked Donna, what would she do? Great song, Charles Bradley. The world is going up in flames.

[Sarah Rafferty]

And it has a very, very suitsy vibe that gives me all the suits feel. So I remember shooting this scene, and I remember really, really loving this because it made me very curious about, you know, the depth of their history and the darkness that's in there. I hadn't really thought about the darkness of the past that they had shared. And I'm sure I talked about this, like, extensively with my coach, Warner. Remember, we talked about how we were and very prepared. Donna has very strong feelings about Cameron and that she wants him to just go down and that she would dance when he did that. And I think we really discover that Donna really is Harvey's moral compass. And in some ways, you really see here that she's set up, and this is a very nerdy thing to say. Are you ready? I think it's nerdier than Lotsi. She's kind of like the chorus was in Greek Tragedy. She's kind of like. She's kind of like, wait, hold the laughter. She's kind of like. She's kind of like the fool in Shakespeare. She's kind of like, you know.

[Patrick J. Adams]

No, it's like that. It's like that.

[Sarah Rafferty]

I'm just here to trigger you. Do it. Say it.

[Patrick J. Adams]

No, I couldn't agree more.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Come on. Do it.

[Patrick J. Adams]

No, I couldn't agree more.

[Sarah Rafferty]

You're setting up the conflict.

[Patrick J. Adams]

I think you make a lot of really good points. Come on. No, it's a lot like the fool in the court.

[Sarah Rafferty]

The jester tried to do a thing. I tried to set you up for it.

[Patrick J. Adams]

No, I think you make a lot of really, really good points.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Anyway, Donna really is Harvey's moral compass here, and I was really grateful for this beautiful soft light for the DP.

[Patrick J. Adams]

You win the Torres Award for. I'm just gonna come out and say it in this scene. Like, you're 100% right about. This scene's a beautiful scene because we're seeing the history and the depth of your history with Harvey, that you've been to places with him that are dark. You've seen him face the reality of a mentor, and you guys are not on the same page about who that guy was. Yeah, I think that's really interesting. You also look so good in the scene. You look so good. It's the vibe. And when you said you were reminded me that you were pregnant. I don't know, maybe there's just like a glow. But you are wearing that outfit. I love the lighting. I've already said that. I love the lighting in the office. When it's nighttime, when it's. Is it night in the scene or is it. It's. But it's. But it's after it's evening that you can tell because that harsh light's not coming in through the window.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Yes, yes.

[Patrick J. Adams]

So it's like we're going later into the day, and you just look like a billion dollars. So you win the Torres Award for me and this episode, I think in.

[Sarah Rafferty]

This scene, what's my prize? That hat on your head.

[Patrick J. Adams]

You are the lucky winner of a sidebar baseball cap. I'm gonna need $12 for that. And then the most important part of this scene, of this whole episode is Gabriel's just holding his balls the whole time. Oh, what's with the balls? Yeah, I guess two scenes in a row now.

[Sarah Rafferty]

I. So that's. That was your takeaway? That's. What's. That's. What is that your closing statement?

[Patrick J. Adams]

I'm a child today.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Emotional support balls.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Emotional support balls. It's true. Because it's when he's. He's unsure when. When Harvey doesn't know what's going on.

[Sarah Rafferty]

That's interesting.

[Patrick J. Adams]

And if they open, he's really holding that ball at. At ball level. At the beginning of this scene. I'm a child. I'm a four year old today.

[Sarah Rafferty]

But it's a really interesting point, though, that it is when he's noodling with something.

[Patrick J. Adams]

If you have a basketball. I don' about stuff like this. If you have a basketball that's signed by, like, all the greats, do you touch it? You do not touch that ball. Right.

[Sarah Rafferty]

You know, sometimes they're in glass. Oh, oh, oh, look, we're getting the answer behind you.

[Patrick J. Adams]

You don't touch it. You would never touch it. Is that a power play, though? If you're somebody who does. If you're like, I don't care. I'm gonna hold this ball. Does that make you.

[Sarah Rafferty]

I can get fuller or does it make you like, I'm friends with these guys?

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yeah, it feels like. I don't know. I'm not a memorabilia guy, but it feels like you would be careful not to be grabbing them balls. Yeah. Mike and Rachel discuss their upcoming double date, and they are both nervous. Love starting a scene with just some casual legal book browsing from the law library.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Absolutely.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Just my favorite. It's so. I've talked to a lot of lawyers. It happens all the time in law firms. You're constantly referencing the books.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Is there a library still in a law firm?

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yeah. Yeah. There's always a library where you do most of your kissing and you're constantly referencing those books. Yeah. How do we feel about this scene? I don't know is what it is. It's a bad idea for these two to go to dinner. We keep repeating, like, you kissed me. Do you remember we kissed? Do you know I'm saying it all the time?

[Sarah Rafferty]

Yeah. I have some things. I think, as we get further into this episode, I have some stuff to say about that.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yeah, there's. It's. It's. It's a tough call. This is a tough. This is tough for Rachel because she's like, I. I'm.

[Sarah Rafferty]

I'm feeling like Rachel needs more development.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Because if you don't get enough of what's going on on her side of the table, it looks.

[Sarah Rafferty]

It's like, not fair.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Not kind. Right. And she is kind. This character's deeply kind. And they care about each other, so. But because you're right, the lack of development, maybe. All right. Mike brings an offer to Lewis in order to settle the will, but no dice. Lewis refuses to negotiate with Mike.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Oh, I love this scene. So you guys are jamming in this scene. You're in lockstep. This is an incredible scene. It's so beautifully played. It's so well edited. And I am giving Rick the Torres Award for being very dashing in this scene. He's got a tie on that is so sharp, and it's night, and he's lit so well, and he's just got that confidence. He just looks.

[Patrick J. Adams]

The light's good. The light's really good. It's that nighttime light. I'm telling you, he looks amazing. Yeah. That's a good. That's your Torres Award. It's a good second place for me. You're still winning the award for me. In this episode, Jessica questions Harvey about why he left the DA's office. We learned that Jessica originally sent Harvey to learn under Cameron. And we also learned that Cameron was burying evidence in cases. Go.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Okay, so I have been sitting over here. I've been thinking, Harvey needs to just turn him in. Right. And then the light bulb goes off for Me in this scene. And as to this very simple fact, why he can't. Which I cannot believe I haven't gotten sooner. And which is sort of embarrassing.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Go.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Which is cook that.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yes.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Karma's a bitch, bro. Like, you cannot be turning people in. Like, you could turn him in later. He could turn Jessica in. Like, everybody can't be turning on each other. Right. He is doing an illegal thing. Right. You. He is your mentor. You're saying can't turn in his mentor. That is some bad karma.

[Patrick J. Adams]

You're saying he's struggling to judge his mentor and do and turn him in when he himself is doing an illegal thing.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Thank you for saying.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Is that what you're saying? Yes.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Keep that part. Thank you for that. Yes. Thank you.

[Patrick J. Adams]

But very different illegal things.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Very different illegal things. But here's why I don't think I got it so fast. Because I had to watch a scene very many times. Because I was really, really distracted by the fact that, I don't know, maybe I've been pronouncing the word mentor incorrectly for a very long time. It may be a potato. Potato. See, I don't know. I don't know what the correct pronunciation is.

[Patrick J. Adams]

There's something potato.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Potato. Cause he has to say it a few times. So I did watch it a few times. And then it sunk in. Which is good. It sunk in. But also, Gabriel in this episode, one time in a scene with youh has the word mentor. And he says mentor. And then here it's mentor. And I think somebody told him to change it.

[Patrick J. Adams]

You can see the actor. That's true. You can see the actor maybe taking a note rather than it being organic.

[Sarah Rafferty]

I did it in a later scene. Cause I said I say, how was dinner with the Antichrist? I say Antichrist. What do you say?

[Patrick J. Adams]

I don't speak that word.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Okay. I'm sorry.

[Patrick J. Adams]

If it's no Antichrist, I say Antichrist.

[Sarah Rafferty]

What is the and they had me do Antichrist.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Say it again.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Antichrist.

[Patrick J. Adams]

That sounds like I'm in New York. It's the Antichrist.

[Sarah Rafferty]

But it's like softball.

[Patrick J. Adams]

I gotta go play stickball with the Antichrist.

[Sarah Rafferty]

There you go. But it's not Antichrist. It's not Antichrist. Antichrist or Antichrist. It's Antichrist.

[Patrick J. Adams]

No, it's not. Whoever told you that's wrong? Let's call that right now.

[Sarah Rafferty]

But that's what happened to me on this. I don't know what it was, but I was like, that's not how I say that word. And sometimes it's bumping their ear from production or from direction or from writing. And they're like.

[Patrick J. Adams]

And as soon as someone asks you to say it, it's so hard to.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Do because all you're thinking about is saying, it's like an elephant in the room. But the acting of this scene is so good. The build between Gina and Gabriel is so good. So I am glad that I watched it three or four times.

[Patrick J. Adams]

It's a great episode for Harvey. We're just getting a side of him we haven't got. We're really seeing this guy wrestle with a version of himself, you know, Like. Like, Cameron taught him everything he knows. Cameron's Star wars reference. Ready? Palpatine.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Oh, yeah, totally.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Right?

[Sarah Rafferty]

Yeah.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Emperor. He's like Emperor Palpatine.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Oh, my God.

[Patrick J. Adams]

You know what I'm saying?

[Sarah Rafferty]

Totally.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Exactly. He's. He's the dark. He's a dark.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Just.

[Patrick J. Adams]

We. We had a marketing meeting where we learned that 68% of our listeners are women. And women listen to Star. Like, Star wars, too.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Careful.

[Patrick J. Adams]

You. God, I'm gonna get canceled today. Getting canceled today. He's. His. Cameron Dennis is like a version of Harvey. Like, Harvey could have gone in that direction. They're very similar.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Totally.

[Patrick J. Adams]

He's like the dark version of what Harvey could become with his value system, his obsession with winning no matter what. All these things. That is Cameron Dennis. And Harvey is wrestling with the fact that the person he learned some of his fundamental traits from could potentially be worse than he thought he was and that he played a role in allowing him to get away with it for so long.

[Sarah Rafferty]

And you hear Donna say, you could have gone down a dark path, and I would not have gone with you.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Of course we've heard her say that.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Like Palpatine.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Like. Like I was saying you guys earlier, before we came in here, it's exactly like Palpatine.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yeah. I'm glad we're all on the same page.

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[Sarah Rafferty]

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[Patrick J. Adams]

Act 3. Mike and Jenny are on a double date with Rachel and Kyle. Things end poorly when Kyle gets a little too handsy.

[Sarah Rafferty]

I want to put Kyle in the face. I just need to punch Kyle in the face.

[Patrick J. Adams]

That's a testament to Hollingsworth performance. She's embracing it. Because you're right. I think we all want to punch him in the face.

[Sarah Rafferty]

So then Jenny confronts Mike about Rachel out on the sidewalk and she says that he needs to decide what he wants. And I love this. I love a boundary Jenny. I just love to see a self respecting gal.

[Patrick J. Adams]

You can't have both, Sarah. You can't have both. She's so good.

[Sarah Rafferty]

She's so good. Anyway, Alexandra deposes Harvey while Jessica represents him. Okay. I loved this scene in that courtroom because watching Jessica have Harvey's back and watching him know it is so great. And I've got to shout out Alicia. She's so great in this scene.

[Patrick J. Adams]

She's so good in this scene.

[Sarah Rafferty]

And do you have a fashion police moment here?

[Patrick J. Adams]

Uh, yeah, I was gonna. I was gonna say nothing. Cause I feel bad for commenting on how everybody looks, but screw it. I think she looks like a million dollars in this scene. And in that dress, I think she looks fantastic.

[Sarah Rafferty]

So guess what that dress is made out of.

[Patrick J. Adams]

What?

[Sarah Rafferty]

Jersey.

[Patrick J. Adams]

And jersey is a material that you.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Learned about in a previous podcast, right?

[Patrick J. Adams]

And it's something make dresses out of it.

[Sarah Rafferty]

And it's something you continue to say that you like. And I just want to.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Oh, I've done. Oh, right. We've had this before. Right?

[Sarah Rafferty]

Yeah. I'm Sarah Rafferty. It's nice to meet you. I do a podcast with you. I don't know if you know, I.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Want to buy some jersey. Can you men wear a jersey?

[Sarah Rafferty]

Um, so you're not gonna like jersey because the reason I think you like.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Jersey, because I sweat too much. I'm a sweater.

[Sarah Rafferty]

I think you like the jersey clothing because of the way it falls. Because it clings, bro.

[Patrick J. Adams]

That was pretty good, right? Um, anyway, we're moving along. Harvey gets an update from Mike on the settlement. Mike thinks he has the upper hand on Lewis, but it's short lived. Lewis keeps outmaneuvering him. Jessica interrupts. Harvey's in trouble.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Oh. You have a moment in here that I just love when you're talking about the Chinese wall thingy.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yeah, that was good. That was good.

[Sarah Rafferty]

So also, there's a reference here to Captain and Tenille. Can you sing me some Captain and Tenille?

[Patrick J. Adams]

I had the. What I wanted to do was go listen to a bunch of Captain Tenille so I could surprise you, because I saw this in the notes and I didn't. Because I want to be honest. I always want to be honest with you. I don't know a single Captain Antonio song. I'm not very musical music literate, but I'd love to take. Do you know Captain Antonio?

[Sarah Rafferty]

Captain Generation.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Captain Antonio. Captain Antonio. Nobody here sing a song.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Nobody here.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Give me a couple of bars.

[Sarah Rafferty]

No, no.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yeah, I know the name Susie.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Muskrat Sam.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Wait.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Muskrats can. And they whirl and they twirl and they tango. It must be Muskrat Love.

[Patrick J. Adams]

There's a song called. There's a song called Muskrat Love.

[Sarah Rafferty]

It's the third most popular. Look how many hits it's had.

[Patrick J. Adams]

I know this song. This song's called Muskrat Love.

[Sarah Rafferty]

No, no, this is the most popular. Love will keep us together.

[Patrick J. Adams]

This is like our theme song.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Can we do a.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Can we be Captain and Tenille for Halloween?

[Sarah Rafferty]

Halloween thing?

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yeah. Thank you for that. Captain and Tenille. This podcast brought to you by Captain and Tenille. Jessica takes Harvey to meet Alexandra. Harvey still refuses to testify, so Alexandra reveals Cameron tampered with one of Harvey's cases as well. She threatens to have Harvey disbarred. So weird to see Harvey snap at Jessica. He kind of snaps at her in the scene.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Yeah, he does.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Act 4. Donna finds Mike fighting with the fax machine. Helps him fax an offer for the tabloid. Donna and Mike walk away smiling. Lewis follows behind shortly, having clearly listened in, he falls for their ruse. What do you remember about this scene? We're together again.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Do you remember this? Do you remember shooting the scene?

[Patrick J. Adams]

Sort of.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Oh, sort of.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Sort of.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Do you? So you don't remember me being a total actory actor and trying to figure out my little move with a thing, My little, like, four pot? What. What did you call it?

[Patrick J. Adams]

Your lot scene?

[Sarah Rafferty]

I'm sorry, say that one more time.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Is this the correct use of the word? Is this a lot scene?

[Sarah Rafferty]

I actually don't Remember, I'm not an expert. I just throw down words as if I know what I'm saying.

[Patrick J. Adams]

But speaking as the chorus of the.

[Sarah Rafferty]

I tried it. We're cutting it, Kimmy. But Kimmy always tells me to try it. And I was.

[Patrick J. Adams]

I love how you think I wanted you to get. So I will 100.

[Sarah Rafferty]

I was like, I want to see.

[Patrick J. Adams]

The podcast if that gets.

[Sarah Rafferty]

No, you will not.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yes, I will.

[Sarah Rafferty]

I'm already doing all my notes here.

[Patrick J. Adams]

What I'm taking with this. I love seeing us together. We're having fun. We're such good actors. When you find out at the end. Not that you and I are such good actors. Whatever. Mike and Donna are good actors. I didn't realize. We get to the end, I'm like, oh, that was acting.

[Sarah Rafferty]

I didn't even realize it until later. And then I had to go back to watch this scene. Can you believe I didn't even remember that? That's a whole show that they put on for Lewis.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Even though you had that little look at the end of the scene.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Well, it was the look that made me kind of go, wait, what's happening here? But then I went back because I realized, think about it. Mike and Donna are close enough. That. Or Mike is kind enough to Donna to indulge her in being like, okay, I'm gonna walk in and I'm gonna tell you. I'm the facts whisperer. So you have to still pretend you can't do it. Be super frustrated. No, be more frustrated. Can you give me one where you're more frustrated so that I can do this move that I've worked out this little dance number that I have with the fax machine. I mean, she. It's her moment, right? She feels like it's her moment. And Mike is being a good friend and playing with her. Like, I thought about that later. Mike and Donna worked this out.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Good team. They were her good team. I want to see them tackle more together. So Harvey finally opens up to Mike about his time at the D. A. Harvey then visits Cameron and tells him to settle.

[Sarah Rafferty]

There are some really good lines in this scene.

[Patrick J. Adams]

It's a great scene. This might be the scene of the episode just in terms of, like, if. If Cameron is a version of Harvey. To me, this whole episode is almost like Harvey talking to himself. It's like Harvey wrestling with this part of himself. So it's a great scene. Anytime we're getting the two of them together, it's great. But this is the ultimate. This is the. Like, they are. This is Harvey Facing down this part of himself. And that's why when he says, you're a disappointment, When Harvey says you're a disappointment, Harvey says, you're a disappointment. But you can see he's, like, saying it to himself, too.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Well, where does it fall in. In relation to when Cameron is saying, I stack my value to society against yours and I win every time by a mile or something like that.

[Patrick J. Adams]

I win by a mile. Yep.

[Sarah Rafferty]

And I think it's really interesting how righteous Cameron is about it. Like that scary. Ooh. You know, you really have a God complex and believe that you're right. And he calls Harvey a sellout because, I mean, in some ways, there's a grain of truth to all of this.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yeah. He is working at a corporate law firm, moving large amounts of money around for very rich people. That's, like, what he does. Which is why also, this is a great episode. It's like taking us back to a time in Harvey's life when it was about people and justice and, you know, putting bad guys away for, you know, that's what it was about for him.

[Sarah Rafferty]

At some point when he was probably an idealist. And then he gets there, and he sees what Cameron does, and he's like, all of my worldview has come crumbling down because this is not justice. This isn't justice.

[Patrick J. Adams]

And this was Mike's territory before morality. Morality, do the right thing. It's all about people. Harvey's the whole time has been like, we don't do that. That's not what we do. We just, like, win the case. You win for your client. Now we're getting to go to that part for Harvey where it's about people.

[Sarah Rafferty]

So this is the trauma that Harvey's coming from. Trauma that makes him be so shut down. Right. This is the healing that he needs.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yeah.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Well, it's definitely that Don is gonna help him with throughout the next nine seasons. I think, like, getting back in touch with the part of himself that has empathy, that has ideals, that trusts other people, that can feel things.

[Patrick J. Adams]

It's a great scene. Fun to watch him do. It. Breaks my heart when Harvey says, you're a disappointment. That really cuts me. All right, we're into. Into Act 5. Mike and Lewis meet with their clients to confirm the settlement. Everyone signs, and Mike reveals his hand. Mike got his client the paper she wanted. So good. Rick, the. Rick Hoffman should have won an Emmy award.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Yeah.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Episode, really for Rick. This is great. I think Mike said it perfectly at the beginning. This was a. Just a beautiful episode for Rick because he gets to play some different colors, and that's really about to build. We're building to that right now. But in this scene, just his silence and then that point at the end.

[Sarah Rafferty]

When he goes, mm, mm. Like, he just knows to. He's laying in wait for that moment.

[Patrick J. Adams]

It's like my favorite line of the episode. Just.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Yeah.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Lewis confronts a distracted Harvey about the settlement. Lewis outplayed Mike. Mike overpaid for his client's paper. Lewis has one great. To finally see this happening. Like, Harvey's breaking. Lewis just plays it. So the scene could have been two guys yelling at each other.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Absolutely.

[Patrick J. Adams]

The script would have supported it. Like, you. No, no, no, no. I win. Go. A lesser actor than Rick Hoffman might have taken that and run with it and tried to out volume or outplay him. But I think it's nice to see this stage direction, because I think we were given the cue, and Rick took it beautifully, which is to come totally under.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Absolutely.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Like, see how shattered Harvey is and not be like, I'm sorry. I'm just gonna leave you alone. I'm still gonna tell you I won, But I'm gonna do it in a way that's, like, quiet and still and almost like. You're pathetic. We've never seen him look at Harvey. Like, you're. You're making me sad right now.

[Sarah Rafferty]

I know. And. And have we seen this side of Lewis, is my question.

[Patrick J. Adams]

No.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Like, we've never seen him kind of be the one to go high and stay calm under these circumstances.

[Patrick J. Adams]

He's off. We're all put off by how Harvey's coming apart, which is sad. That makes me sad. I wish we could be more comfortable and, like, figure out a way to be there for him, but we all don't know how to deal with it because it's so rare. And you watch all of us not know how to deal with it. And then Rick could have just walked out and be like, we'll talk about this another time. And he doesn't. He still stuffs it to him.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Well, I would argue with that a little bit. Cause Donna turns on her heel, takes it in, turns on her heel, and she goes into action. She goes.

[Patrick J. Adams]

You go to go do a thing. Right.

[Sarah Rafferty]

She goes to try to help.

[Patrick J. Adams]

That's a good point. And there's. What can anyone do in this moment? Not much. It's in the moment of the explosion. There's nothing. You've got to go do a thing.

[Sarah Rafferty]

But we learn in this next scene, when Donna visits Jessica, when she has that manila folder in hand, that she has something to give to Jessica that's very, very, very important. And it is some evidence against Cameron that obviously she's been holding onto for a very long time. Also, she anticipated that this might be a thing one day, that there would come a time when Harvey would have to defend himself or when Harvey would elect to take that guy down. What I loved about this scene is that I think this is one of the very few scenes that I have one on one with Gina in the whole series. And I really especially appreciate how she says immediately that she judges people by how they treat the lowest person on the ladder and that she's always been impressed with how Jessica treated the lowest people on the ladder herself. And I think in my brain, this is when I probably went down like a rabbit hole of what did Cameron do to Donna back then? But I also think that maybe it was somebody else and it was another woman. And it just feels sort of dirty, like, beyond the. Just. I mean, there's nothing dirtier than putting somebody away who's innocent, but. Or burying evidence or anything like that. But I just meant like something. Something with somebody who doesn't have any kind of power in the workforce at all. I think Donna always had the safety of having Harvey, like you were saying, like, who has people's backs. So if. If Cameron had perpetrated something against Donna explicitly, Harvey would have already killed him. Already gone to town on him. Like, yeah, there would be something different going on here. So I think it was her friend, too, that, like, he did disgusting things too, or awful things to do.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Interesting. This is.

[Sarah Rafferty]

And that's why she's so upset.

[Patrick J. Adams]

It's fun to watch the two. Two women on either side of the power structure of this firm be together.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Do it together, and need each other.

[Patrick J. Adams]

And get each other and be able to talk openly and honestly. It doesn't feel, you know, that power differential. It does not feel important to the scene. Turns out. Great show. Moving on. Rachel approaches Mike in the fax room. After an arm touch. Mike confronts Rachel about their relationship. They are done. This is a tough one for me for the same reason we talked about before. I love all these scenes, you know, with Rachel and Mike. It's just a tough. It's hard. It's hard. The hand on the arm thing just doesn't work for me in this scene. It's weird because, again, it's sort of aggressive. It's very clear she's doing it intentionally. It's not an accident, which obviously was intentional, but it just looks weird. And I don't because the line is in there. I say later on in the scene, and now you're putting your hand on my arm. That constricts us to. Well, we have to find a way to put a hand on the arm in this scene. Like, we can't figure out a way that energetically makes sense where it's a swipe and we both notice it or something. So it gets at this bigger problem where I'm struggling with the. I know that I want Mike and Rachel to figure it out, and I know ultimately it's the path for the two of them, but I'm not loving how they're getting there.

[Sarah Rafferty]

I think what I craved was not this level of seriousness yet when he says, hey, I can't do this, which is played. You played really beautifully. I think Rachel's character was written to be very angry, and I didn't understand how we were already there. It's not like they had been in this relationship for a long time. It just felt very serious all of a sudden. I don't know if I was ready for that. And I wasn't ready for Rachel's reaction to be like that.

[Patrick J. Adams]

You mean, like how angry she is at the end. We're done.

[Sarah Rafferty]

We're done. I didn't feel like we had earned that, like I said before, because we haven't developed Rachel's side of this enough. We've really developed Jenny, actually.

[Patrick J. Adams]

That's true.

[Sarah Rafferty]

And we haven't developed the romantic side of Rachel and.

[Patrick J. Adams]

And how hard it is to be falling for somebody who's in a relationship.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Right.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Like, that's complicated. But I feel. I feel like we need to have more of Rachel's point of view of this situation.

[Sarah Rafferty]

So after that, Jessica confronts Cameron. She has evidence against him, and she will use it unless he makes a new deal. And back at Pierce and Hardman, Jessica lets Harvey know that everything has been resolved. But Harvey's distracted, and he realizes that he and Cameron put an innocent man behind bars. Harvey has to fix it. So now we have officially moved into serialized episodes. This one has to go into the next one. So this is really just half an episode in a way.

[Patrick J. Adams]

We definitely feel like, oh, yeah, this is like the biggest cliffhanger that we've had.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Yeah.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yeah. Which is great. That's, like, right at the end of our season. But it is fun because you can feel our show shift into, like, we've grown out of procedural. We've, like, we've done it. We don't have to do it. And we know our show's headed more into that and it's cool to see it happen in real time.

[Sarah Rafferty]

And we're gonna have to turn into a binge worthy show because the whole world is gonna change in terms of how we watch our TV now. And now we're gonna play next. Play next. Play next. Like we do well and it's not. Back in the day we couldn't do that.

[Patrick J. Adams]

I think I would have felt going into this season that I'd struggle more with the procedural of it. Cause I don't watch shows like that. Like, I just. It's not the kind of TV I normally watch. But I understand why people like it worked. It's not that it didn't work.

[Sarah Rafferty]

No, it's just.

[Patrick J. Adams]

It worked. We did it. And now we're committed and it's the perfect time to move into like, I'm ready to take a story beyond one episode to the other. I mean, we've had stories that are moving, but I'm ready to really, like, be left wanting. Oh my God.

[Sarah Rafferty]

How?

[Patrick J. Adams]

How are these guys gonna deal with this? How's everybody gonna deal with this at the end of an episode? So, yeah, it was exciting. Anything else? That's the end of an episode. All right. So that's the end of our episode. Do you have any honorable mention? I've always got honorable mentions.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Have you got some honorable mentions?

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yeah. We've got a shout out to Mike Smith. John Cowan. But Mike Smith is the first of so many and for good reason. Great to have Gary Cole.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Definitely the facts whisper scene. Yeah. Discovering that Mike and Don are actors.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Good actors.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Like to improv with these characters.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Good. Do summer stock somewhere for me. Serious Harvey. Deep dive into the psychology of Harvey. That's like the highlight. Donna and Jessica together. Mike reckoning with these two women in his life. And I think Lewis shows some really different exciting colors in this episode. Those are my honorable mentions.

[Sarah Rafferty]

My only objection was the shirt that Jenny had to wear in the first scene.

[Patrick J. Adams]

That's it. That's the only one. That's good. Yeah, I guess that's good.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Yeah, that's my only objection.

[Patrick J. Adams]

That's great. I don't have much. The music was tough for me. Struggled with the music in this episode. The pace at times felt a little weird. I just felt like we were all moving a little slow. I'll speak for myself. I definitely felt like I was moving slow, but I felt like the whole episode was moving a little slower than I was used to. But that's it. I thought it was a great episode. And really leading us nicely into the end of our season, which I can't believe. Next week we get the final episode.

[Sarah Rafferty]

No. And I am really excited to get into that episode.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yeah.

[Sarah Rafferty]

To do a deep dive.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yeah. All right. Well, we're at the end. Goddamn counter. What's your guess?

[Sarah Rafferty]

Zero.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Oh, you went zero. See how she did that? Because it's been. It's burned. Wait, I saw. You're about to give me an answer.

[Sarah Rafferty]

I'm not giving an answer. I'm just saying I love how Sarah is.

[Patrick J. Adams]

She came out. She was at zero.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Sarah just really went for it. You taught me this.

[Patrick J. Adams]

I'm going one.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Well, you're wrong and Sarah's right.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Yeah.

[Sarah Rafferty]

I just had to say I needed a win.

[Patrick J. Adams]

You got it. You win. We still don't know what we win, but you win. So that's a case closed on the rules of the game. Thanks so much for listening.

[Sarah Rafferty]

I think we need to say goodbye with a little Captain and Tenille today.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Okay. That's a case closed.

[Sarah Rafferty]

We're gonna play you out with a little muskrat love.

[Patrick J. Adams]

I don't think we have the rights to that, so we will not be playing it.

[Sarah Rafferty]

You'll be singing it. Muskrat Susie. Muskrat Sam.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Go Muskrat Susie. Muskrat Sam.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Love the yacht rock. We will see you next week. Thanks, guys. Thanks so much for tuning in.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Have a great week. We'll talk to you on Tuesday.

[Sarah Rafferty]

We love our listeners and we would love to hear from you. If you have any questions for us, email us@ Sidebar podcasteriusxm.com if you send us a question as a voice memo, we may even get to play it on the show.

[Patrick J. Adams]

And if you can, please make sure to leave a review wherever you listen. It's a great way to support the show. Thank you.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Sidebar is produced by Sarah Rafferty, Patrick J. Adams and SiriusXM Media.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Our senior producer is Kimmy Gregory and our producer and researcher is Kristen Schrader.

[Sarah Rafferty]

Our sound engineer is Alex Gonzalez and our music is by Brendan Burns.

[Patrick J. Adams]

Our executive producers are Cody Fisher and Colin Anderson.

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