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Simple Farmhouse Life
331. Should Kids Have Smartphones? Rethinking Screens, Social Media, and Teens | Clare Morell, Author of The Tech Exit
00:55:31
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- [00:01]
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- [00:55]
Claire Morell
Trading not available in all jurisdictions. Check local regulations before trading restrictions and eligibility requirements apply. When you're getting all these artificially high levels of dopamine from the screens, it actually desensitizes you. Like, you don't feel as much pleasure from real world activities. But then going off these screens, you know, for these 12 days, they actually started to enjoy things in real life again. And so it made the screens less appealing. And so most of these families then they said they got to 30 days. This was going to be their trial period. But once they saw saw the changes in their kids, in their homes, they were like, we have to keep going. Like, we don't want to go back to what life was like on the screens.
- [01:30]
Lisa from Farmhouse on Boone
My name is Lisa, mother of nine and creator of the blog and YouTube channel Farmhouse on Boone. On this podcast, I like to talk about simplifying your life so you can live out your priorities. I help you learn how to cook from scratch and decorate on a budget through this podcast and my courses Simple Sourdough and the Simple Sewing series. I will leave links to these resources in the show notes and description box below. Now let's get into the show.
- [01:53]
Claire Morell
Foreign
- [01:57]
Lisa from Farmhouse on Boone
welcome back to the Simple Farmhouse Life podcast. Today, Claire Morell and I are going to be chatting about one of my favorite topics, and that is technology and what it's doing to us and how to protect our children from it. She wrote the book the Tech Exit. Now, just so you know, Miriam does end up sleeping through this entire interview. So although she's distracting here in this intro, she won't be. I think you'll find this discussion encouraging, especially if you feel like you've already failed in this area. Now. Claire Morell is a mom, writer, speaker and tech policy expert, helping families rethink how technology fits into everyday life. She's a fellow at the Ethics and Public Policy center where she directs the Technology and Human Flourishing Project and the author of the Tech A Practical Guide to Freeing Kids and Teens from Smartphones and Social Media, a book offering hopeful practical steps for families ready to reclaim connection, curiosity and real world rhythms in a screen saturated world. So let's dive in to this. I think you'll find a lot of this discussion interesting. There were definitely some things that I learned, even though I feel like I've been thinking about this a while, talking about this a while, definitely some new insights. So let's jump in. Claire, welcome to the show. We're going to talk today about tech. When it comes specifically to teens and kids, young people, I think we all can have a reminder of this, especially in today's world. So let's start with introductions. Tell us a bit about yourself and your book, Tech Exit.
- [03:25]
Claire Morell
Yes, thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to be here. So, yes, my name is Claire Morell. I am married to my husband Caleb. He is a pastor here in Washington, D.C. and we have three kids. So I'm primarily a mom and I'm home with them basically full time. So that is my full time gig. And then I work outside home a bit, though fully remotely from, from our home office on policy related to protecting kids online. So that is kind of what brought me to writing this book. The Tech Exit is I had worked in this space the last nearly five years working with legislators in the states and in Congress here to try to pass better laws to actually help parents protect their kids online. But in my work, I would interact with parents all the time who were asking me for practical advice like how do we protect our kids? We are on the front lines from smartphones, from social media. What is your advice? And that is kind of what started me on the journey to writing this book, the Tech Exit, which is a practical guide to freeing kids and teens from smartphones. And the hope of the book is really to actually show parents that it is possible to resist and opt out of smartphones and social media entirely and interactive screens for younger kids. And that is like the best possible thing we can do for our kids. And so yeah, that's, that's really kind of why I wrote the book. I wanted parents both kind of to know why they should do this. And that was the summary of kind of all my years of research, what had convinced me that I would not be giving smartphones and social media to my own kids. But I really wanted to prove to myself and to other parents that it was actually possible to do this. And so the book is kind of the culmination of all of these interviews I did with families who have successfully done this and trying to walk other parents through. Okay, here are the steps to follow in their footsteps. And it's never too late to reverse course.
- [05:21]
Lisa from Farmhouse on Boone
Yeah. Okay, let's start with a bit of the why. Like, I think before people even decide to take the steps that you're talking about, they have to be convinced that it's even an important thing to worry about. I definitely know as parents there's so many things to worry about. And so sometimes it's like, okay, which ones are very important? And then why? Like, what's the data on why this is such a big deal?
- [05:43]
Claire Morell
Yes. No, exactly. And that's kind of where I start my book too, because I recognize parents picking it up may not agree with me yet. And I kind of want to convince them, right, that this is worth doing. And this is why. And so I start with just the nature of these technologies that specifically smartphones, interactive screens, and social media apps and all these other kind of apps made for these interactive devices are inherently addictive. They're actually designed to extract as much time, attention, and data from our children as possible. So it's not like a neutral technology. They don't want you to just kind of use it as you will and then put it down. They want you to use it compulsively. And so it's designed with all these features to trigger these dopamine hits in our brains that make us constantly want to go back on. And so I kind of explained in that first chapter, I think we've culturally treated screens kind of in the category of sugar. Something that can be enjoyed in moderation, but in excess becomes dangerous. What I try to unpack is that actually the nature of these things are so addictive that even a short amount of time, even trying to do these interactive screens or smartphones or social media apps in moderation isn't working. Because even if they're only on that app for 15 minutes a day, even when they're offline, they are constantly thinking about what is happening in that app. The craving to go back on stays with them throughout the rest of the day because it's an addictive product. And so I try to explain how kids brains in particular are very Vulnerable, vulnerable to these effects. Like they don't have fully developed prefrontal cortexes, which you don't have to know. Neuroscience is just, it's the part of our brain that gives us impulse control and emotional regulation and self control. Kids don't have that. And so all the stimulation from these screens, all these dopamine hits, are very overwhelming to a child's developing brain and nervous system. And so they really can't resist. And so I've heard just over and over too from parents, they see this experientially, even if their kids were only allowed this feel 15 minutes a day of this interactive screen time. It affects their personality, their behavior, their mood for the entire rest of the day. They're constantly wanting to go back on, and that is the actual biological reality. They are in fact craving to go back on the device. And so I try to explain, when it comes to this addictive technology, screen time limits really are no match. And kids carry this virtual world with them long after they leave it. And so I, I, that chapter just kind of tries to explain, explain again the brain science behind why I'm arguing for a total opt out, that when it comes to these addictive technologies, screen time limits really are no match. And the second piece I explained to parents is that the parental controls are really not effective for what a parent would want to be able to do to protect their child. The companies again kind of offer this as this is the solution. You know, you just put your time limits and your parental controls in place, no problem, they can use our technologies and not be harmed by it. Um, but unfortunately these controls don't actually give parents real control or other sight into what their kids are seeing or doing inside the apps. It kind of just lets them set time limits, some privacy settings, maybe a sense of how much time they're spending on the app. But at the end of the day, the companies and their algorithms and all their features and notifications, that is what is in control of a child's online experience, not the parent. So for both those reasons, kind of how limits don't work when it comes to an addictive medium like these interactive screens, especially for developing brains. And that the fact that parents really can't effectively lock down a smartphone the way that they think they might be able to, all the portals to the Internet a kid can get into just is what kind of compelled me to think, okay, we need a total opt out. And then, but is this possible? And then the rest of the book tries to walk through, okay, if you're now convinced that you never want to give one of these devices to your kids. Like, how do you actually do this in a. In a world that is saturated with these technologies? Yeah. Yeah.
- [09:48]
Lisa from Farmhouse on Boone
I mean, I think as adults, we know what it does to our brains. Like, just I take apps off my phone non stop, and then if I get them back on just within moments of getting on them, I'm like, hooked. And I, like you said, you carry it with you. Even just all the information that goes. I was telling my kids the other day, I'm like, I'm just tired of the amount of information that's in my brain that I can't get back out. Like, no matter what, I don't, I don't even control it. It's just like you open up the app and then whatever it shows to you, even if you're like, oh, I don't agree with that, it's in. And like, I can't forget it, you know? And I think that's something I've been thinking more about lately with kids. The. The idea that you said, I think this is new to me that. Just a very small amount because I think we do think, like, limits and not really realizing that they carry the craving with them throughout the day. That's definitely something to think about. We don't have smartphones for any of our kids. Even our oldest children, however, they have access to, you know, like, we have laptops and everything's in like a, in a space where nobody's like, off and alone with it. But also, I wouldn't think much of, like, flipping through some YouTube shorts, like, while we're all around. But I'm wondering, like, is that even something to think about? And so with that being said, like, you're talking about how it's possible. It does. It seems so hard because even like we, we homeschool, so it's not like they're around a lot of children that have smartphones or anything and we didn't get them smartphones. But even still, we have like laptops and computers and we go on YouTube. So. Yeah, how is this possible?
- [11:29]
Claire Morell
No, and you're asking all the right questions. And I actually really do try to distinguish in the book between different types of screens. So computers and even televisions are actually different than like an interactive. Okay, than an interactive.
- [11:42]
Lisa from Farmhouse on Boone
Even if you're looking at like a short because like shorts and it used to be a thing. So now, like, you know, we, we do YouTube. Like in our family, we learn things from YouTube. But like, now you can open up YouTube. And on like the family computer that's sitting right in our dining room. Some like, I'll find a kid and we have a password. But like sometimes people learn the password and you got to change the password anyways. But you'll find like, you know, the, the 12 year old, like looking at YouTube shorts, but that has a different effect.
- [12:07]
Claire Morell
No. Well, okay, so I should distinguish. So I think computers can actually be used as tools, which is different maybe than an interactive tablet that's kind of constantly just incentivizing them to get into an app, switch between apps. They're actually like interacting with the screen and the screen is giving them all these dopamine hits, like, oh, you got this new notification or this app wants you to come back. And so kids are then constantly kind of getting dopamine hits while they're on an interactive screen. That's not necessarily the case if you're using a computer to like work on an Excel project or type up a Word document, like you are using it as a tool, but it's not pinging you with these constant dopamine hits and these notifications. Now if you're using a computer for more of a social media type activity like YouTube shorts, it could still have some of those dopamine effects. So like also the activities on the screen are not all created equal, but I particularly try to take on in the book the interactive screens, social media apps, which I think includes YouTube and YouTube shorts, smartphones and video games, because those are these kind of dopamine pushing like activities inherently kind of built into those apps or screens. Whereas there are actually tech exit families that use other kinds of technologies like computers or TVs in a productive way. So like using a computer to complete an assignment or do research or something that is like they're using it as a tool. And then televisions too, I think can be enjoyed as a family activity where you're sitting down, you're all watching a movie together, or you're all watching a sporting event. That's like an activity that actually brings your family together. And it is a more passive form of entertainment. You're just taking in this movie or this experience, you're not interacting with it. And it's. So it's not giving you these constant dopamine hits the way an app, an interactive screen, a video game, social media apps, smartphones are. And so those mediums are not as addictive. And so I try to explain how tech exit families are kind of like hard nose on the most addictive forms of these technologies. But then they do have more intentional ways of using other technologies like computers and TVs. The last thing I wanted to mention too, I didn't bring this up, but part of the other effect that this is having on kids, these interactive screens, is it's over stimulating their nervous systems. It kind of puts them into this state of hyper arousal, like a fight or flight mode by all these kind of constant stimuli coming at them. But then there's no like physical release for all that cortisol. And so what happens is over time it has this cumulative impact where then kids kind of start having these externalizing behaviors like tantrums or they can't regulate their emotions. They, they have trouble paying attention or focusing, and they're getting kind of treated as if they have adhd, ADHD or autism, because they start to mimic some of these symptoms. And so what I explained in the book that is that this doctor in particular found that in her practice, kids were coming in with these things, and before any other treatment, she was just having them do a screen detox for 30 days. And that for a lot of these patients, that it eliminated the symptoms entirely, that the screen was inducing symptoms of ADHD and autism, but the kids did not actually have those conditions. And then in children who genuinely did just cutting the screens out, like cut their symptoms in half. And so I, I just raised that because I think we're seeing increasing rates among children of autism and ADHD in our population. And I think a kind of understudied factor is all these screens, these interactive screens in particular that kids now have access to. And so anyway, I, that's kind of some of the science behind detoxing. And that's kind of where I start in the book in terms of the practical steps. Okay, how do we actually live free of these addictive technologies for our kids? And it starts with like detoxing if you have already given them to your children. And so I try to walk through how you and your family could then do a 30 day digital detox to really help your children's brains kind of recalibrate to a normal level, a baseline of dopamine, and then also their nervous system reset, that cortisol, come down and return to a normal baseline. So there's a whole science behind, again, the addiction and the kind of stimulating effects on the nervous system. But then also how effective detoxing is from these things, like it's possible to reverse.
- [16:36]
Lisa from Farmhouse on Boone
That's actually really encouraging to know that for families who feel like, okay, I see the fruit, or you know, the symptoms that possibly could be a result of this. So now, like, what do we do? I'd say the harder part is probably telling children know, like, that's inconvenient for us as families, especially if a lot of their peers are allowed to do certain things. So let's jump in, I guess, a little bit more into the, like, Absolutely. How is this actually done?
- [17:07]
Claire Morell
Yeah, so I think, you know, it is. It's. I'm not necessarily saying all these steps are going to be super easy. And you're like, wow, that was painless and so frictionless. It's like making any change. There is going to be, especially, I think, among kids who've had these devices, there's going to be an initial period of resistance. And what I heard from all the families that I spoke to was that they had to kind of push through this initial period where honestly the kids kind of go through withdrawal symptoms. I mean, it is so addictive that taking it away, they have a very, like, physiological pull towards the devices. And so a lot of the families said when they chose to set aside these 30 days, we're gonna do these detox. They made it a team thing. Like, we're doing this as a family, explained why to their kids. I think that's a huge piece of it. It doesn't mean your kids are going to automatically buy into it, but just treating them like adults in the sense, like, you can understand the reasons and we want you to understand why we're doing this. And I think just recognizing, you know, as parents, we have to make changes and pivots all the time. Like, if we get new information, you know, that this food you're eating is actually really bad for you. Like, we're going to make a change. And so I think it's the same with technology. I think a lot of times parents feel really afraid because they can't picture dealing with their child or without the smartphone or without the screen because it has been become such a, like, calming tool. But I think we just have to put it in the category of any other area of parenting to say if we get new information, we learn this is harmful to our kids, then it's never too late to make a change. And they. They actually can kind of reverse out of these effects. Like, kids brains are very plastic. They can be reset. And so what all these families said is once they kind of explained what they were doing to their kids, they set aside this time on the calendar and they tried to actually make it very positive. They're like, are all the Fun things we're going to do as a family. Instead, we're going to have all this great family time. Maybe we'll do these special outings or activities. And they like set it aside on the calendar and they really committed to it. And they said like, that first week was kind of hard. The kids asked for the screens a lot, there were tears, but then they kept going. And they were like, once we made it to like 10, 12 days, they started to see a difference in the kids. They weren't asking for the screens as much. They're kind of natural creativity and ability to play independently came back. They started just having more imaginations, more activities. And again, the science behind this is because their brains actually start to experience more pleasure in the real world. Again, when you're getting all these artificially high levels of dopamine from the screens, it actually desensitizes you. Like, you don't feel as much pleasure from real world activities. But then going off these screens, you know, for these 12 days, they actually started to enjoy things in real life again. And so it made the screens less appealing. And so most of these families then they said they got to 30 days, this was going to be their trial period. But once they saw the changes in their kids, in their homes, they were like, we have to keep going. Like, we don't want to go back to what life was like on the screens. So I would just encourage anyone, like, if it feels overwhelming to do a tech exit, just to start with a 30 day trial period, just try to see if you can, I think anyone can kind of commit to doing something for 30 days. You know, there's whole 30, there's all these diets, these exercise plans. And I think think similarly for technology, saying, okay, we're going to commit to doing this for 30 days as a family, having those conversations proactively with your kids, kind of preparing them for it, saying, okay, so this day on the calendar we're starting, I think are just things that can kind of help it go smoother. But then I think you really do have to tell yourself to keep going when it starts to feel hard. Just like a diet, there's a period where you're like, okay, I don't want to do this anymore, to push through that. Because all the families I spoke with said once they got to the other side of that kind of initial resistance, it really got so much better with their kids.
- [21:00]
Lisa from Farmhouse on Boone
Okay, so on the detox, what's allowed? Like, are we still watching a family movie or. Yeah, what's. Are parents still Using their smartphones?
- [21:12]
Claire Morell
No. These are great practical questions and I do go into this in the book, but the main Detox ground rules are no smartphones, no social media, which would include like YouTube, no video games, no kind of tablet type devices, and really like no kind of use of computers unless it's for school related purposes. And then for televisions, it's not like a hard no, but it's kind of like limited. So really only do it maybe on a Friday night as a family activity, but kind of like any daily TV time. Like, like cut that out. And then for parents, you do not need to give up your own smartphone as a parent. But I will say the more that parents are team players in the Detox that are they're like gonna take steps themselves to free themselves from our phone addictions. I think it just makes it more effective as a family, especially with the kids seeing. Okay, mom and dad are really trying this out too. So I kind of encourage parents, like take steps at least to not be on your phone when you're at home, like during the detox, like having a phone basket or someplace you can physically put it. Because I think it is important to model to our kids. Okay. We're asking them to go off screens and we're tied to our phones the whole time. That can be counterproductive. And so you don't have to give up your smartphone per se, but definitely trying to physically distance ourselves from the devices during the Detox period, putting it away from us and really only using it if we need to, or once the kids are asleep or things like that. And I think, you know, there's other steps. I think you were mentioning trying to delete apps off your smartphone. I always encourage parents too, like, do whatever you can to make your phone less addictive to you. Like, what is sucking your time away and do you really need that on your phone or is that something that you can wait and do on a computer, not something that's tied to your person all the time? And so I think, yeah, just taking steps we can as adults to ruthlessly eliminate apps we don't need. Turn off notifications, just make it less addictive to yourself. Will also be really helpful. Helpful. So those are kind of the Detox ground rules that I outline in the book.
- [23:16]
Lisa from Farmhouse on Boone
Okay, that's doable. Now I have a question for you. Do you have a smartphone?
- [23:22]
Claire Morell
I actually don't.
- [23:23]
Lisa from Farmhouse on Boone
Okay. So I'm curious, what kind of phone do you have?
- [23:26]
Claire Morell
Yeah. Okay. It's called a wise phone.
- [23:29]
Lisa from Farmhouse on Boone
Okay.
- [23:29]
Claire Morell
So it's kind of A play. I think the company was kind of playing off of smartphones. Not smart, but it's wise and it's been great. I made the change, like basically two years ago. I honestly became convicted from doing all this, this research kids that I'm like, wow, this is really having an effect on me. It's having an effect on my parenting. Like, I see that I'm distracted and I want to be more present with my kids. And so I actually met a group of college students who had voluntarily all given up their smartphones. They were kind of in this group together, this kind of unplugged pledge, going off social media and giving up their smartphones. And it was talking to them and I was giving them a talk on how addictive social.
- [24:09]
Lisa from Farmhouse on Boone
They're like, hey.
- [24:11]
Claire Morell
And they were like, do you have a smartphone? I was like, I do. And then I realized I'm like, wait, these kids. I like talked to them. I was like, how'd you know you were ready to do it? And this one freshman boy looked at me, he said, oh, I wasn't ready. He's like, I was addicted to my phone up until the moment I got rid of it. And he's like, but like, that's why I needed to do it. And so I realized, I was like, I think I was thinking I'd be like ready at some point to like make the leap. And I just realized, no, like, this thing is so addictive. And I wasn't actually sure I was going to do this long term, but I kind of took the mind mindset of a detox. I'm like, let me just try this out for 30 days. Like, you know, worst case scenario, I'm just very off the grid and disconnected for like 30 days. And I've never gone back because I really realized it was mentally much more freeing for me to not have all the distractions of email and Internet browser. Things I could easily try to do in multitask while I was with my kids to just be more present with them. And so, you know, the wise phone is great. It has apps that I need that are generally like health apps that you would use as a tool. So I have Google maps so I can navigate. I have a K. Yes. I have a camera so I can take pictures of my kids. And then other tool based apps, like I have Uber on there for when I travel. My bank apps, airline apps, they all have that available.
- [25:29]
Lisa from Farmhouse on Boone
So what does that not allow?
- [25:31]
Claire Morell
Like, no social media apps, no gaming, nothing that would be like distracting. This is controversial. No email. They don't have email apps, so you can't access your email.
- [25:43]
Lisa from Farmhouse on Boone
Email is probably one of my most addictive things. And I, I always try to think about it logically. I'm like, I do not have to check this right now. Like, it's definitely a compulsive thing that is not necessary at all. And so I, I mean, I, I think like on a trip, which, you know, it's funny that we make decisions for very infrequent times of life. Like how often do I travel? Basically, I know never. But I need that phone because what if I travel, need to check my email? You know, that'd be really bad. So.
- [26:12]
Claire Morell
Oh, I understand all the things. Yes. And so that is kind of a controversial one. And then there's just no Internet browser. So if you're like, oh, I should place a target order right now or something at the park, it's like, no, you can't do that. So what about like grocery pickup? No, I just, I mean, I do all that stuff, but I just do it on my computer, which is funny.
- [26:32]
Lisa from Farmhouse on Boone
It's, it's really funny we do this to ourselves because it's like, oh man. Like I save so much time not going to the grocery store, which I do, but like, I waste so much time checking my email on emails. I'm not really going to answer right now, real quick, you know?
- [26:48]
Claire Morell
Yes, no. So it's certainly not entirely without inconveniences, but it has everything I truly need as a tool and then other things. It has just disciplined me to basically put intentional steps in ahead of time to either planning those things out when I'm at home and I have a computer or, yeah, just like waiting and doing things until after my kids are napping or asleep at night. And so I'm just not as tempted to do as much on the phone. So I'm not saying it's for every parent, but I am saying if you're kind of like on the fence or you feel like. No, I just, I really am just really struggling to put limits on myself with my smartphone. I would just say maybe try it out and see if it's a helpful, you know, solution and helping you spend less time on your phone. Even if you don't do it long term. Maybe it just serves as a nice, nice 30 day reset.
- [27:40]
Lisa from Farmhouse on Boone
Well, and I think, I don't know when Wise Phone was invented, but I did this in 21. I did the light phone and I don't know if you, it's.
- [27:51]
Claire Morell
I started with the light phone actually And I.
- [27:54]
Lisa from Farmhouse on Boone
No offensive to light phone, but it is the worst. Like, I was like, if this is what dumb phone life is, like, I literally can't because it was so.
- [28:03]
Claire Morell
Oh, no, I understand. So the light phone was impossible. No, I actually had. That's what I started with. I didn't know about these other options. And I went to the light phone. It was so clunky. I felt like I couldn't even do my life as a mom because I was like, I can't even text on this. This is so hard.
- [28:19]
Lisa from Farmhouse on Boone
No, it was the worst.
- [28:21]
Claire Morell
Like, so I don't know, because people
- [28:24]
Lisa from Farmhouse on Boone
apparently love it, but it's. It was so bad because, like, you couldn't. I mean, they had. They had things like they had maps apps and they had podcasts and stuff
- [28:35]
Claire Morell
like that, but they weren't. They're not very good. And. And I. I couldn't. I didn't have a camera. And I was like, this is like, as a mom, like, this really is how I, like, catalog memories of my kids.
- [28:44]
Lisa from Farmhouse on Boone
Yeah. One really sad thing is, and the reason I know about when I did it is because I don't. I'm very bad with, like, storing things on, like, the right hard drives and all this kind of stuff. I don't have any pictures of my son born that year as a newborn. None. Like, they're gone.
- [28:59]
Claire Morell
I.
- [29:00]
Lisa from Farmhouse on Boone
Somebody else, maybe my sister has some in her phone. And I was. I was like, well, I don't need it. Like, this is me enjoying, like, my family and my life. I'm like, that's great. But now I have no photos from. From that at all. Because he was born in 21. And I. I did it for, like, I think I did it for around six months, which is so lame, but it was just so awful, the light phone. And I have no photos of him at all. And so to know that you have photos, I'm like, maybe I could do this.
- [29:25]
Claire Morell
No. So what they did is they took like an Android, like a Samsung Galaxy Android, and then they put their own operating system onto it. So, like, the hardware is really good, and then their operating system just cuts out all those things that you just. You don't want to have access to. So it's actually also a great phone for teenagers. So this is like my whole thing in the book. Like, one of the kind of keys to sustaining this lifestyle long term is having good alternative options for phones. Especially when you get to those years where you're like, okay, my kid is actually moving around more independently. Like, they genuinely need a Phone for communication reasons. And so I kind of say like in the last couple years, we just have the benefit now where there's a lot better alternatives available, whether they're for adults wanting to make a change like me, or just you're like, I don't want to give a teen a smartphone. The wise phone's great. There's a bark phone, a pinwheel phone.
- [30:16]
Lisa from Farmhouse on Boone
We have gab for our 17 year old. I will say though, and I didn't know this about Gab, but I know now because she's 17, so she drives places. The. Or the maps only work in WI fi now. Does yours work? Does your maps work like when you leave the house?
- [30:34]
Claire Morell
Oh, yeah, no, I have data.
- [30:37]
Lisa from Farmhouse on Boone
Like we pay monthly. It's a phone. Like you, you, you know, she can text and call, but yeah, she can't. The maps doesn't work. So she has to like, get the maps. Yeah, we didn't know that at first. So she was like out and about going to a friend's house that she'd never been before and she had to like stop by a coffee shop, get the directions, like, write them down. Like, oh, well, that's stupid. I don't like that, you know, so.
- [31:00]
Claire Morell
No, that's a bummer. No, mine, I haven't had the issue. I mean, I, yeah, I definitely am out and about and just using maps and it's no problem. But I will say, yeah, like, also, your daughter is amazing because she's going to be so resilient having that. Those life experiences, you know, I do.
- [31:18]
Lisa from Farmhouse on Boone
Well, I thought that too. I was like, you know what, though? You know what? I didn't have maps when I was 17. Like, we, Luke and I, when we were married and we had one little child and then another one on the way. We did a trip to the East Coast. Like, we went from. We're. We're in Missouri. We went up through like Ohio. We went like, we stayed on the Great Lake and then we went to Niagara Falls down upstate, all the way down the coast. Like, we went to Boston, all this stuff home through Lancaster, Pennsylvania. We had an atlas. Like an actual atlas. Like, there was no, like, we didn't. We weren't able to book hotels on the way. We had no smartphone because this is 10, 2010. And so I'm like, well, when I was 16, I learned how to find places. And maybe that's cool because I bet you if you're always putting it in your phone, you never actually learn. And kids are probably like, how do I learn? You've been there a hundred times.
- [32:13]
Claire Morell
Yeah. One of the families I interviewed for my book, you know, the phone option, like I think they ended up eventually getting for their like high schooler did have gps, but at first they didn't. They had still more of a very like rudimentary phone. But the mom was like, I wanted my kids to actually like learn the routes. Like they're not driving like random places as a teen. She's like, they needed to learn how to get to their school, to this friend's house, to the church, whatever. And she said, I think that teens, she's like, I didn't want them to be distracted drivers. Like, I actually wanted them to learn and focus like on the road. And so I think sometimes all this technology that we have that we're like convinced that we now need isn't always the best. Especially when a kid is learning like learning to drive, learning to navigate. You know, the, the maps may actually not be as helpful as the tools. So yeah, there's certainly considerations to think through there. But I would say I think sometimes reasons that parents then give a child a smartphone, like, oh, they have to have maps for driving. I mean, now these alternatives have it. But like, it's really not a very good reason to give your child this
- [33:14]
Lisa from Farmhouse on Boone
addictive thing because we didn't like a lot of us who have driving age kids grew up when there was not maps. So I mean, not a lot of us, all of us who have driving age kids.
- [33:25]
Claire Morell
And so I had a like dumb flip phone in high school, so I just had to learn where to drive.
- [33:33]
Lisa from Farmhouse on Boone
So.
- [33:33]
Claire Morell
Yeah, yeah, no, so it's. I think it's possible and I think that's a big principle of this book is that these families, they recognize like technology is always taking something from us. Like it's not neutral. Like the kind of, of it always promises, right, that it's going to make life more efficient and more convenient to you and faster. But it's always replacing something. And especially for kids and teens, these like real life skills that we want them to develop. You don't want the technology kind of short circuiting that. And so a big kind of principle, the book as well is like they're. These families really trade these screens for real life responsibilities and pursuits. They try to actually, actually teach their kids like how to operate independently as an adult in the world and not have this kind of crutch of dependence on a smartphone or on these technologies. And so I think the tech exit I try to explain to people is like really fundamentally a positive Vision for reclaiming like real life and real human flourishing. Like, the saying no to all these addictive screens is to say yes to so much more and so much more for your kids. Like these skills that you're gonna give them, these real life relationships they can develop instead, instead of being, being siloed on these screens and not talking to each other. I think just focusing on that, about the, like, the positive goods that you're trying to give them instead, I think helps us make more sense of like, okay, this is why we're saying, you know, no to the smartphone. So yeah, that would, that's like another thing I would just say is, is this is like a really positive thing that you can do for your kids. Yeah.
- [35:09]
Lisa from Farmhouse on Boone
And I, I think it's something that people are starting to realize more and more. Like, I think the younger kids, they might just outright like reject it soon, you know, I really do. Because that's how these things go. Like, we see what it did to our parents, like, you know, in their case, not me to my parents, because we didn't grow up with it. But like, they might see how their parents are addicted and distracted and short, all because of, obviously because of the social media, because of just the constant addictive nature of our phones. And they might just say, no, like, we're not doing this.
- [35:42]
Claire Morell
Yep. Can I ask you a question? Have you found other families who are also not giving their teens smartphones? Like, are you guys like the only ones? Like, do you have other friends who are on the same page?
- [35:53]
Lisa from Farmhouse on Boone
I know a few, but mostly no. And I actually told my 17 year old when she got her license, I said, you can get a smartphone if you want, but you'll have to pay for it, whereas I will keep paying for the gab phone every month. And she was like, well, I'm not doing that. That. And so I'm like, well, there you go. Like, you know, at some point that's great. You can do whatever you want. Do you talk about ages in the books? I know there's some research that I think like after 15, like the effect isn't near as strong as younger than that.
- [36:23]
Claire Morell
Yeah. There's some brain science, I think, just to show that obviously, like there's these very like critical periods of development and like adolescents and even like ages, like 10 to 12, like kids, dopamine receptors are actually multiplying and it's to help kind of them turn outwards from their immediate family, to value social approval and feedback from their peers, to like extend their relationships. And it's like just at this age now, kids are getting smartphones. Like the Average age for first smartphone is 10 or 11. And so now like that normal process of development is being completely hijacked by the smartphone. So yes, like the longer that you can hold out, the better. I will say too, like the human brain isn't fully developed until age 25, like the prefrontal cortex. So I think the longer you can wait, what you're giving them is the ability to form habits and, and just like a lifestyle that's not dependent on it and you're saving them from the possibility of kind of this smartphone dependence and addiction. So yeah, the longer you can wait, the better. And I, I think families will draw those lines differently. I kind of give examples in the book. Some really waited kind of until college. Other people did what you kind of recommended. They were like, okay, at 18, when you leave the home, you can do this, but I'm not going to buy it for you.
- [37:38]
Lisa from Farmhouse on Boone
Right.
- [37:39]
Claire Morell
I'll keep playing for your dumb phone plan through college, but like, I'm not going to fund the smartphone kind of purchase. Other families I know they waited till their child had submitted all their college applications. And so then second half of senior year they let them, you know, get a first social media account or get a smartphone as a way to kind of like, yeah, have earned that privilege. And they said there were other kind of tests that they had in place. Like it wasn't a purely age based thing. It was like you got your college applications in, but then also you've demonstrated to us like some real like adult responsibility in these areas. And I thought that was kind of a fair thing. And she said so it actually varied for her a little bit between some of her teenagers, like when then they like let them get that, you know, just reading the signs of maturity in their teens. So yeah, yeah, I would say those are kind of a couple different examples of how families have like made that decision at what age to give or to allow a child to purchase a first kind of smartphone.
- [38:37]
Lisa from Farmhouse on Boone
Yeah, I think it's, it's, it's definitely not super cut and dry. And obviously all of our children will be adults and they can at some point do whatever they want, you know, and likely will get a smartphone. We'll have to know how to manage that relationship. But I'm like, you know, I can just tell you, I tell them like from my own personal experience what it feels like to, you know, have a pull toward the phone, because I for sure do. And I'm like, you just don't Trust me. You just don't need it.
- [39:07]
Claire Morell
You don't want it.
- [39:08]
Lisa from Farmhouse on Boone
You don't want it.
- [39:09]
Claire Morell
No, And I'm glad you brought that up, too, because I also hear a lot this myth kind of like, oh, well, if you don't give it to them and kind of train them on it when they're younger, they'll just binge and go crazy in college, like, when they can get access to these technologies. So I really pressed all the families I spoke to on that question. I was like, okay, so be honest. Did your kids go off and binge on social media and smartphones in college? And all these families were like, it was actually the opposite because our kids, like, largely grew up without it. Like, ages 0 to 16 or 0 to 18, they formed, like, their core habits and their, like, hobbies and pursuits and all these different things not attached to these devices. And so, like, the appeal, like, really wasn't there. And they also, you know, these families really intentionally talked to their kids. They explained why they were doing this. I mean, there were lots of conversations over the years about, you know, the addictive effects, what they were protecting them from. And so they, like, maybe didn't always love it. Like, love being the only one without a smartphone, but they always had in the back of their minds, like, this understanding of. Of this, this is addictive, this is harmful, makes me dependent, like, these different kind of categories to draw on. And so even just, like, having those core habits formed, even then when these kids did get smartphones, they were actually able to, like, way better regulate their use of them than their peers who had grown up on the smartphones. Like, they saw a very distinct difference. This one college freshman guy I talked to who was raised in a family that, like, resisted the smartphone social media, basically said, like, his friends didn't even realize that they checked their phones, like, 300 times a day. Like, when they compared their, like, screen pickup statistics.
- [40:47]
Lisa from Farmhouse on Boone
Yeah.
- [40:47]
Claire Morell
And he was like, I picked my phone up maybe like 60 times a day. It was like when I needed to check a message or, you know, check what time it was something intentional. And he was like, the kids who've grown up on it, like, they just don't even realize, like, the habits are so deeply formed. And he actually could really tell when he started to use his phone too much much, because he had this picture of himself 0 to 18 without it. Like, that always is going to be kind of like a tether for them. And so instead, he was actually really able to regulate his use and even make decisions, like you know what, I've been on that app too much. I'm going to take it off my phone this month. And so I, I really saw the opposite in these families. Their kids didn't binge and go crazy. Even if they got access to these technologies as adults, they just had a much better relationship with them.
- [41:30]
Lisa from Farmhouse on Boone
Well, yeah, because like, you and I, like, you know, you, you actually do have a dumb or a wise phone. And so that's because like, people, if you grew up with it and everything you've ever done is with it, you might actually not think it's possible. But I'm like, hey, I remember I was an adult. I didn't get one Till I was 30 years old. Like, I totally remember doing all my mom things, all my homeschool things, like driving places. I have a very strong memory of all of that. So I know when I say, oh, I could never her, that I'm just lying to myself, which I still do because I, part of me thinks like, the world is just like the second I try to leave my phone in a box for a little bit, there's like a QR code that you need just to do anything.
- [42:17]
Claire Morell
But I know, but I do remember
- [42:19]
Lisa from Farmhouse on Boone
when that wasn't the case. So that's a good little tether. But like, yeah, what, what do you do about those types of things?
- [42:24]
Claire Morell
Yes, and that is, that is honestly one of the hardest things is that our culture has become such a smartphone based economy and ecosystem that it's really, really, it's difficult. Like there's actually practical things in the real world. And so I've had lots of parents say to me, like, my teenager actually like, their employer required them to have like some certain app to like clock in and clock out for their schedule.
- [42:45]
Lisa from Farmhouse on Boone
Youth group has one. They're like, we have to get on such and such to see what's going on. I'm like, oh, come on.
- [42:50]
Claire Morell
I know. I especially get irritated the youth groups. I'm like, come on guys, you can, you can provide some alternative, right? Like, this is not what's best for the youth group to have all these kids on these apps. And so I've just like, I was encouraged just through the families I interviewed with, just like, they just don't accept the answer. And I know that sounds, it's like kind of simple or maybe trite to just say like, you know, just, you have to kind of as a parent just say like, this is not the reason that we're going to get you a smartphone. Like, we're going to Figure something else out. We're going to find a workaround. So a lot of these parents just were, honestly, they just had like a lot of backbone and they were just like, let's go talk to your employer. Or like, let's talk to the youth group. Because like that decision to get a child a smartphone is really should be up to the parents and it shouldn't be something a parent feels pressured into because of these like outside forces. And if that's the case, if those things are pressuring in, then I think it is, it's worth having conversations is what I would say. Just like with whatever, you know, that employer, the youth group, or these different situations with a teacher, if they're saying this app is required, like can we find another way for them to participate? You know, I had other parents say like they ended up getting the app thing on their phone if like the child really need to do something on it. But it was like, this is not going to be the reason that all of a sudden you have a device that's connected to the Internet 24,7 in your pocket.
- [44:12]
Lisa from Farmhouse on Boone
That's just an excuse. Let's face it.
- [44:14]
Claire Morell
It's just an excuse. And I'm not saying that's the easy route. That is not, it's not the path of least resistance. Like it takes, it takes effort and intentionality as a parent to keep kind of forging this path. But that is why I was just wondering if you have any friends because. Because what I also just heard over and over from these families is just having one or two other families in their community that like likewise were opting out was like such a, like buffer for some of those things. For their child to not feel like they were the only one, for the parent to feel like they had other allies to kind of, you know, give them a boost in the arm and say no, no, like keep going, you can do it so that you don't feel like you're truly the only one. And I'm not saying that that's automatic either. Like it sometimes I think like you might be the first one and you're kind of the leading family and then you kind of bring others like on board with you, which can take time. But I think it's worth kind of having those conversations to try to find like minded families to kind of link arms with. Because like you're saying there are these pressures, there are these things that are not going to be easy, but I think are still so worth it to make the best decision for your child and to feel like you are the one making that decision. Right. I know what's best. I am not being pressured into this. Like, this is my decision.
- [45:31]
Lisa from Farmhouse on Boone
Yeah, well, yeah, I think I'm doing that as an adult. Like, I'm like, well, I'd love to. I. I see all the negative effects of the phone, but, like, what about the QR code? You know? Like, yeah.
- [45:44]
Claire Morell
Oh, no, that is tricky. I mean, I honestly have been it, like, because my wise phone can't. Can't. I mean, it can't. What can it do? Can it pull up a keyboard?
- [45:52]
Lisa from Farmhouse on Boone
It can't do the browser, so you definitely can't, which is good. The browser is one of my biggest problems. Like, yeah, you know, as addictive.
- [45:59]
Claire Morell
I feel like what I've often had to do is just. I'm trying to think of how I've navigated these situations. I feel like I've just told the person, like, literally, like, I don't have this. I can't pull this up on my phone. Can I please order from you? Like, yeah, whatever. Must be a way to do this, right? Or, like, can you give me the website? In a real pinch, I. My husband does have a smart phone, which I think in some ways enables me more to not have one. And maybe again, for a teenager, if the parent has one, maybe enables the child more to not have one because in a pinch, like, he could do something for me if I really needed him to. But honestly, a lot of times I've just been like, I'm sorry, your menu is a QR code. I don't have a phone that can pull up the menu. Can I have a paper menu? Like, can I see something else?
- [46:44]
Lisa from Farmhouse on Boone
Right.
- [46:45]
Claire Morell
And I would say most of the times I've been, like, accommodated. Like, if they can't accommodate me, they do. So it hasn't affected me a ton. But I, I, you know, I recognize it could be a bigger deal for other people if they're, like, feeling like they're running into QR codes all the time. Yeah.
- [47:00]
Lisa from Farmhouse on Boone
Do you do, like, grocery pickup or anything from your laptop? You just skip it all together?
- [47:04]
Claire Morell
I do grocery delivery, so it gets dropped off to my house, so I do too order it on my laptop. I'm trying to think if there's other ways, you know, like, again, because my phone has a camera, a couple times I've gotten, like, tickets to go to a museum that, like, requires something to get scanned, but I do it on my computer and then I take pictures of it, and then I can just pull up the picture on my phone. And then they'll scan, like, the barcode or the QR code. So it does again, it takes, like, planning ahead of time, but I haven't run into something where I couldn't kind of do it at home beforehand, take a picture of it and then, like, show it when I got there, since I can't, like, pull it up in real time, if that makes sense.
- [47:43]
Lisa from Farmhouse on Boone
Yeah.
- [47:44]
Claire Morell
So I don't know if that's a potential workaround, but, yeah, I've been able to do that because it has a camera. Yeah.
- [47:50]
Lisa from Farmhouse on Boone
Well, I think we sometimes say, like, oh, it was so much easier for moms, you know, 20 years ago than it is now because of all the. It's like, well, maybe we don't, you know, you just could just not do it. It's. It's very. It's. There's, you know, it's very countercultural. Like you were saying, do you have friends? And I have a lot of friends that. Or people like in our circles that don't let little kids have smartphones. But then at a certain age, people have smartphones. And I would say, like, my teenage daughters are definitely little. Like, I think according to them, like, I don't know, I haven't verified it, but I think they are, like, the only ones that they know that don't have them. Because it just. I think at some point, like, just the pressure becomes so much, and people do think it's. It's just an impossible thing to require.
- [48:37]
Claire Morell
Yeah, no, I, I realize that. And I do think, yeah, as kids get older, it feels like those pressures kind of increase. I will just say, like, zooming back, just like a little bit of, like a kind of meta picture. I do think, like, our children, like, when I think about, okay, there are these hard parts to it, but then when I think about the benefits or like, what the gifts are that we're giving our kids, it's like, it is so worth it. And I think even now, with these increasing threats of AI technology coming and things, I'm just like, I want my kids to feel like they're so grounded in the real world and in real life relationships and that this, the medium of the screen is just not neutral. Like, it is. It is communicating something. There's this old kind of quote from this guy, Marshall McLuhan, like, the medium is the message. And I try to explain this to parents sometimes who say, well, we're going to totally lock down the smartphone. It's not going to have all these apps. Apps. First of all, it's like, extremely Difficult to actually do that. Near impossible. But then secondly, that's what I've tried. The med. The medium is itself like sending a message that the smartphone, by its size and by all the apps, it like tells you that life is about you, that like life revolves around you and like your entertainment and amusement, that you can just kind of scroll life away. That when you're bored or when you're frustrated, like it becomes this like calming device because what it holds out to you is like this is like the world in your pocket. Like you can have access to everything. Like here's the whole Internet, here's all these apps, here's social feedback. You want approval from other people, just post a picture on this app and you get all this instant feedback. And so I just, I think the nature, like kind of just thinking about what is the nature of this technology trying to accomplish and realizing that it doesn't. It's not just like a neutral design. Like it's got an inherent parent bend in its design and it's a bent towards self focus into making our kids primarily consumers instead of producers. And just all these things that I think when we see that big picture, you're like, wait, all of that is really in contrast to like my goals as a parent, like what I want for my kids. Like I want them to be others focused and I want them to have self control and not have to scroll their emotions away. And I want them to be contributors and leaders, not just consumers. I think it's just important to think, okay, so when I'm saying no to the smartphone, this is what I'm like saying yes to all these things for them that the smartphone really undermines. So yeah, I would just, I think like just stepping back and, and seeing that big picture can be helpful in those like day to day moments that you're like, oh, this feels hard or I'm sorry that my kid is like the only one. It's just kind of keeping that bigger picture in mind. Mind can be helpful.
- [51:23]
Lisa from Farmhouse on Boone
I didn't really think about that like how you centered a phone because I, Aaron Lochner from Opt Out Family, she talked about this how calling it my phone. You have like a picture on it and it's like it's your, your feeds are all curated to you, all the algorithms. It's all, and it's all just presenting like what you think, what you're interested in. And it is like this little like center of the world, like that just revolves like it's just like all you. And I haven't thought about that. I'm like, it is so true because. And it's so convenient for you. Like it's, it has just everything that it's just tailored to you. And I'm like, man, you're right. That's, it's, it's like this self centered device.
- [52:09]
Claire Morell
Yeah. And I think it kind of communicates these values that life is about pleasure, life is about comfort, life is about your own self, amusement and ease and entertainment. Instead of being like, actually sometimes life requires a lot of hard work and hard things to have like meaningful relationships or meaningful things. And so I think, yeah, like keeping our kids off the smartphone allows them to then develop those skills and those experiences in life that actually give like real lasting satisfaction and fulfillment and significance that aren't just like these fleeting little dopamine hits that just don't last, that don't produce lasting satisfaction. So yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [52:49]
Lisa from Farmhouse on Boone
I think it's a very good mission, Very meaningful mission. We can all, as adults who've ever had a smartphone, we definitely can understand the problems. Like if we're at all honest with ourselves, we totally know what the problems are. And to, to give that to our children out of convenience that they're already addicted in these very vulnerable years. It's a, it's something that we should take very seriously. So tell the listeners where they can find your book and anything else you offer.
- [53:23]
Claire Morell
Oh, thank you. Yes. So thetech exit.com is like a book website I set up for this so you can find all the places you can buy the book. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Target, it's available for sale like wherever books are sold. But all of that is@the TechExit.com but then I also want readers and listeners to know that there is a book resources tab of the website where I have actually put up a lot of additional resources to accompany the book. Like I have a, a activity guide for things to do with your kids during a detox. Like here are screen free activities. I get it. Parents are busy and we get like kind of in these ruts and you're like, I don't know what to do. So some creative ideas there. I also have a discussion guide because I, I think it can be really powerful to read the book in groups or in a community of parents so we can actually talk about it with each other because I think that's a natural way then to kind of find these relationships to do this alongside other parents. So there's a whole discussion guide there and then kind of a PDF summary of like here's Tech Exit checklist. Like if you just want a one or two page thing of here's the book, here are the steps. That's all there@the techexit.com I also write occasionally on substack@clairemorel.substack.com Putting out resources for parents or updates on the kind of latest technological trends. Like I recently did a post on what you should know about AI when it comes to kids and things like that. So I'll continue to put out resources at my substack. Claire Morel so those are the main places I would say to kind of find my find my work and find resources to help you and your family.
- [54:55]
Lisa from Farmhouse on Boone
Not Instagram.
- [54:57]
Claire Morell
I did. I did make a handle for the book, but I don't post there. It's more just like it's just so people can tag it and they can find it. It links to the book website so you can find it at the Tech exit on Instagram. But I I don't really post content there so don't expect to.
- [55:13]
Lisa from Farmhouse on Boone
That's consistent. That's consistent. Awesome. Well, thank you so much Claire. And we will leave links to all of that down in the description box or the show notes below. So thanks again so much.
- [55:24]
Claire Morell
Yeah, thank you for having me. It was great.
- [55:27]
Lisa from Farmhouse on Boone
Thanks as always for listening to the Simple Farmhouse Life podcast. My husband Luke and I and our kids work together side by side on our farm in Missouri and use our blog, podcast and YouTube channel to reach other homemakers and home cooks and homesteaders with practical recipes in daily Family Life. For everyday Sourdough recipes, make sure to check out our blog, farmhouseonboon.com and to dig deeper, we do also offer a course called Simple Sourdough over at Bit Ly Farmhouses. All one word. We also teach people how to ferment vegetables and mill their own grains through our courses, Fresh Ferments and Fresh Milled Grains. We will leave links for all of that down in the show notes below.
- [56:33]
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Claire Morell
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