Dear Therapists: Jason’s Alcoholic Father

Summary

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Since You Asked with Lori Gottlieb & Gretchen Rubin

Episode: Dear Therapists: Jason’s Alcoholic Father
Date: December 16, 2025
Host: Lemonada Media — Shared episode from Dear Therapists with Lori Gottlieb and Guy Winch

Overview:

This episode features a session with Jason, a 42-year-old man grappling with how much he owes his aging, abusive, and alcoholic parents—especially his father, who left deep emotional scars. Now with a wife and children of his own, Jason struggles with guilt, detachment, and sadness, seeking guidance to resolve how to manage family relationships while protecting his own well-being.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Jason’s Background: Abusive Childhood & Estrangement

• Jason’s Letter (04:46–06:28):
  • Raised in a physically and emotionally abusive, alcoholic home.
  • Most vivid painful memory: father spat in his face at age 12 over a misunderstanding about car keys.
  • Parents have never acknowledged harm; father’s behavior remains unchanged.
  • Interactions are limited to a few visits per year at Jason’s home; always stressful.
  • Brothers struggles (addiction, dysfunction) echo the parental cycle.
  • Jason feels guilty for his lack of attachment but is troubled by his lack of desire to maintain contact.

2. Societal Pressures & Grief for Lost Family Connections

• Gretchen & Lori’s Framing (06:28–07:32):
  • The societal expectation to be close to parents despite personal history.
  • The unique sadness and “orphan” feeling for adults who realize they’ll never have a typical parental bond.

3. Session with Jason: Guilt, Emotional Blunting, and “The War”

a. Emotional Distance & Guilt

• Jason’s Reflection (11:40–13:38):
  • Acts from obligation vs. genuine connection.
  • Feels sadness, more than guilt, for not being close to parents; sees his friends with supportive parents and feels a sense of loss.

b. Trauma’s Somatic Legacy

• What Childhood Felt Like (13:47–15:00):
  • “Always feeling tense…scared…just never knew when he [father] was going to explode.”
  • Achievement became a means for Jason to try to create self-worth.

c. Parent-Child Roles and Sibling Dynamics

• Brother’s Coping vs. Jason’s (16:32–22:04):
  • Jason sought achievement; brother turned to drugs/alcohol.
  • Brother maintains a relationship with parents through shared drinking.
  • Brother’s resentment is discussed—not against their father, but projected onto Jason due to parental comparisons.

d. Revisiting the Abuse

• The Key Incident (22:24–27:06):
  • Father’s physical and emotional abuse, culminating in the “car key”/spitting event.
  • Jason’s attempt in adulthood to confront parents—father responds with a defensive, unaccountable 10-page letter listing his “positive acts,” denying any wrongdoing.
  • “He’s just like, ‘I don’t remember that.’ That was kind of like to me, ‘Okay, I don’t need to try anymore because you’re going to continue with this behavior.’” (27:06)

4. Numbing, Repressed Anger, and Grief Work

a. Inability to Access Anger

• Difficulties Expressing Feelings (29:01–34:34):
  • Fear that expressing anger will turn to rage, like his father.
  • Realization: “I am angry…but my barometer for anger…is skewed.”
  • Lori: “For you, anger looks like violence.”
  • Exercise: Giving voice to childhood anger ("I hate you!"), recognizing it’s normal for children to feel this but hard to express.

b. Parenting, Avoiding Repetition of Trauma

• Jason as a Father (40:31–41:08):
  • Handles his children’s anger patiently and warmly—a corrective to his upbringing:
    “Those moments…it makes me so happy…I’m proud of myself. That’s the kind of treatment I would have wanted.”

c. Difficulty Embracing Joy and Peacetime

• Persistent Tension (45:45–48:18):
  • Despite a loving family, Jason finds it hard to fully settle in and enjoy life, constantly battling internalized negative messages from his father.
  • The “unreality” of happiness: “Is this real? Is this going to last?”

d. Parental Guilt and Managing Contact

• Supervised Parenting/Grandparenting (53:04–54:31):
  • Jason only sees his parents in controlled settings.
  • Children like grandparents, but Jason cannot relax; remains vigilant, always waiting for the “other shoe to drop.”

5. Intergenerational Trauma & The Path to Healing

• Rooting the Cycle (62:14–64:04):
  • Guy and Lori note: Jason has made a conscious break from generational patterns, even if he has yet to feel at peace.
  • Recognize that father feels shame, which likely prevents him from ever apologizing.
  • Emotional inheritance discussed—Jason is “the one who stopped” the intergenerational trauma.

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Therapist Guidance & Homework for Jason

Advice from Lori & Guy (65:19–68:13)

• End the War Ritual:
  • Create a symbolic ritual with his wife to mark “peacetime” in his life—signifying the end of his family’s war narrative.
  • “Come up with some kind of ritual in which you and your wife know that you are celebrating the fact that you’ve ended the war and you’ve done it really successfully.” (67:24)
• Feelings Exercise:
  • Write down three childhood incidents that were painful, with two columns: Anger & Sadness.
  • For each, allow his “inner child” to fully express how he felt—no editing.
  • Spend time weekly experiencing joy, resuming personal hobbies he has neglected.
• Responding to Guilt:
  • When parents attempt to guilt him for not spending time, remember: “just because somebody sends guilt doesn’t mean you have to accept delivery…you don’t have to sign for the package.” (70:45)

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• On Emotional Distance:
  “I love them simply because they are my parents. That’s where it ends.” — Jason (05:13)

• On Numbing and Anger:
  “You numb out what you’re feeling…you don’t have any access to what you’re feeling.” — Lori (33:22)

• On Legacy of Abuse:
  “I was the same innocent kid. I didn’t deserve any of that.” — Jason (31:09)

• On Healing as a Parent:
  "Those moments...it makes me so happy where I'm like, I'm proud of myself. That's the kind of treatment that I would have wanted." — Jason (41:04)

• On Guilt Packages:
  “Just because somebody sends guilt doesn’t mean you have to accept delivery. You don’t have to sign for the package.” — Lori (70:45)

• On The War Metaphor:
  “Maybe the realization hasn’t filtered in yet, that the war is over.” — Guy (50:38)

• On Intergenerational Trauma:
  “There’s an emotional inheritance…that gets passed down…until somebody puts a stop to it…You are that person in your family.” — Lori (64:40)

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Follow-Up: Jason’s Update (77:27–81:05)

• Despite a stressful week (moving, wife’s grandfather passing), Jason completed his rituals:
  • Developed a new “mantra” that “the war is over, and we’re in peacetime now.”
  • Journaling about childhood—challenging but insightful; plans to continue the practice.
  • Interactions with his mother felt less charged using this mindset.
  • Profound gratitude for the tools and new sense of hope.

Final Therapist Reflections

• “He was the one who got to declare [the war] to be over.” — Lori (82:06)
• “It’s easier to get through the stresses of life when you’re not in a war.” — Lori (81:52)

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Key Timestamps for Reference

• [04:46] Jason’s letter
• [13:04] Jason explores sadness/guilt
• [22:24] Key incident retelling (“car keys”/spitting)
• [29:01] Struggles with numbness and anger
• [41:04] Jason on being a “different” parent
• [45:45] Difficulty inhabiting joy/“peacetime”
• [65:19] Therapists give homework
• [77:27] Jason’s follow-up and integration

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Tone and Language

The tone throughout is compassionate, validating, and gently challenging, with Lori and Guy carefully supporting Jason in both expressing difficult emotions and recognizing the progress he’s made in breaking dysfunctional family patterns. Jason’s language is honest, occasionally self-deprecating, and searching; he often expresses difficulty with acknowledging anger and remains determined to change for his own children.

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Summary

This is a deeply empathetic and practical episode for anyone grappling with family trauma, estrangement, or legacy guilt, especially around caregiving for “difficult” parents. It offers a roadmap for breaking cycles, setting boundaries, and giving oneself permission to embrace joy in adulthood.

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End of Summary

Transcript

[Lori Gottlieb]

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[Guy Winch]

Lemonada.

[Lori Gottlieb]

Hey everyone, it's Lori. Today we're sharing another episode from my other podcast, Dear Therapists, where my fellow therapist Guy Winch and I do real sessions that you can sit in on offer practical interventions and then we hear how these interventions worked out after the session. Today's session is with Jason, who still carries emotional Scars from childhood. Now he's married and with children of his own, and he's aware that his parents are aging and he wants to.

[Gloria]

Be a good son.

[Lori Gottlieb]

But he wonders how to navigate these relationships while also freeing himself to enjoy the adulthood he worked so hard to create. So you'll hear his letter. We'll bring him on live for the session, give him some homework to do, and hear how it all went when he put it into practice. I think you'll find this session valuable in your own life, too. So here's the episode. Hey, fellow travelers. I'm Laurie Gottlieb. I'm the author of maybe youe Should Talk to Someone. And I write the Dear Therapist advice column for the Atlantic.

[Guy Winch]

And I'm Guy Winch. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid, and I write the Dear Guy advice column for ted. And this is Dear Therapists, each week.

[Lori Gottlieb]

We invite you into a session so you can learn more about yourself by hearing how we help other people come to understand themselves better and make changes in their lives.

[Guy Winch]

So sit back and welcome to today's session.

[Lori Gottlieb]

This week, a man struggles with guilt over how much he should take care of his aging parents despite their abuse.

[Jason]

Growing up, you called us names. You told us we were worthless. You know, like physical abuse, like, spitting in my face, like. And he's just like, I don't remember that. I was just like, okay, well, I don't even need to try anymore because you're going to continue with this behavior, and I just don't. I don't want to be part of that.

[Lori Gottlieb]

First, a quick note. Dear Therapist is for informational purposes only. It does not constitute medical or psychological advice and is not a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional, or other qualified health provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical or psychological condition. By submitting a letter, you are agreeing to let iheartmedia use it in part or in full, and we may edit it for length and clarity. In the sessions, you'll hear all names have been changed for the privacy of our fellow travelers.

[Guy Winch]

Hey, Laurie.

[Gloria]

Hi, Guy.

[Guy Winch]

So what do we have in our mailbox today?

[Gloria]

Today we have a letter about this tricky question of what do we owe.

[Lori Gottlieb]

Our parents as adults if they haven't been the parents that we wanted?

[Gloria]

And it goes like this.

[Lori Gottlieb]

Dear Therapists, I'm hoping that you can.

[Gloria]

Help me with an issue involving my.

[Lori Gottlieb]

Relationship with my parents. I'm 42 years old and was raised in an alcoholic abusive home. My brother and I were physically abused, but we were verbally abused and demeaned much more regularly. The most significant moment in my youth that haunts me is when I was around 12 or 13 years old and my father snorted a bunch of mucus and spat in my face because he thought I locked his keys in the.

[Gloria]

Car, which I had not done.

[Lori Gottlieb]

I was called worthless, stupid, etc. Frequently. After a divorce from my first wife, I sought counseling, which was tremendously helpful. I even took the opportunity to talk to my parents about some of the things that bothered me. But that discussion didn't lead to any acknowledgment on their behalf. My father continues to drink excessively and my parents relationship has not changed. I see them about four to five times a year at my house only. It's always a stressful time for me, no matter how brief. My biggest struggle is that I love them simply because they are my parents. That's where it ends. We aren't close and I don't feel a strong attachment to them in any way. I'm very troubled by the fact that my father was in the hospital recently with a significant health problem that led to surgery. And only when he called me to tell me how it went had I realized that it never occurred to me to call and see how he was doing. It wasn't a conscious neglect. It just wasn't even on my mind. As they are getting older and their health is failing, it bothers me that I have no strong desire to maintain a meaningful relationship. Worse, the same behaviors, alcoholism and drugs, have manifested themselves in my brother, and those behaviors are affecting my desire to have any meaningful relationship with him. Can you help me navigate this? Thanks, Jason.

[Guy Winch]

This letter brings up such an important question, and that is, when you have parents who've failed you in certain ways and you don't have a good relationship with them, then you might take distance from them as a way to protect yourself, as a way to really not allow them to hurt you anymore. But at the same time, you might feel bad about doing that because in our society you're supposed to be loyal to parents and close to parents, and it might make a very bad person, even though that might be the healthiest choice for you.

[Gloria]

That's right. I think on the one hand he's dealing with some guilt around not being a good son. And on the other hand, I think there's just this sadness that people have when they realize as adults that not only did they not really feel an attachment to their parents when they were young, but that they're never going to feel that. And it makes them feel a little bit like orphans, he says.

[Lori Gottlieb]

I love them.

[Gloria]

I'm not sure that he even feels love. I think that's something that he wants to feel but doesn't. And now he's lost not only his.

[Lori Gottlieb]

Parents, but he's lost a sibling too.

[Guy Winch]

That's right. And it raises the next question of then who is your family right now and do you have one? So let's go talk to him and find out more about where he is with all this.

[Lori Gottlieb]

You're listening to Dear Therapists for My Heart Radio. We'll be back after a short break.

Lori what I like about JLab is that no matter what your mood, there's a JLab headphone for everyone.

Exactly. Whether I'm working out to music, listening to podcasts, or just trying to unwind, there's a JLab that fits and they deliver superior sound, smart design and real value.

The JBuds pods are a great example. Sleek stem design, 56 hours of playtime and powerful noise canceling. What I appreciate is not having to think about charging them all the time. They just keep going.

The JBuds Lux are another favorite. They've got 70 hours of playtime, hybrid active noise canceling and cloud foam cushions. I love how lightweight and comfortable they are, especially if you're listening all day.

And if you want to go beyond headphones, JLab even has the JBuds party speaker with up to 12 hours of playtime and customizable LED lights to set the mood anywhere.

For every move, for every mood, for every you express your true self with JLab.

Look for the blue box at retailers everywhere or shop jlab.com and use code. Since you asked for 15% off your order today, there are nights when cooking just is not going to happen. Too tired, too busy, or simply out of ideas. Which is why something like Suvi really stood out to us.

Suvi is a smart countertop oven combined with flexible meal delivery service. You set up dinner in the morning and the Sous Vide kitchen robot keeps it cold until it's time to cook thanks to built in refrigeration.

What I find clever is the tap to cook technology. You load the meals into the pans, tap the recipe card to the appliance and set when you want the food ready. Chef crafted meals delivered right to your door. With over 50 options and new ones.

Added each week, the newest sous vide 3.0 has more than 15 cook modes including Air Fry and Slow Cook so you can use it for their meals or your own ingredients. It's a simple way to enjoy a home cooked dinner without the prep, shopping or cleanup.

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I'm Lori Gottlieb.

[Guy Winch]

And I'm Guy Winch. And this is Dear Therapists.

[Gloria]

So hi Jason.

[Jason]

Hey Lori. Hi Guy.

[Guy Winch]

Hi. And thank you for coming on our show.

[Jason]

Oh, no problem. Thank you for having me.

[Guy Winch]

Jason, tell us a little bit about what it is specifically that makes you feel bad about when you think about your parents because you say that you're not really close to them on the one hand, but you feel bad about it on the other. Could you tell us a little bit more about what that is?

[Jason]

I think that as I've gotten older I just, I've become very aware of the fact that I don't feel close to my parents. I don't necessarily seek out a relationship with them. What little relationship I do have almost comes from a sense of a feeling of obligation, like they're my parents. I probably should reach out to them, but not something that that occurs to me on a regular basis when I have things in my life that are Big, monumental things or struggles or celebrations, all those things. I'm just very aware of the fact that I don't really reach out to include them or celebrate with them, that sort of thing. And my dad was sick in the. And it didn't occur to me to kind of call and check up on him afterwards. And he called me to tell me how he was doing, and it just kind of hit me upside the head. Like, oh, my gosh. Like, my dad was in the hospital and was incredibly ill, and it just. It just didn't even occur to me. Like, I'm gonna say I wasn't concerned about him, but I just didn't have the desire. I shouldn't say the. The inclination to. To reach out, to keep in touch, to see how he was doing through that whole thing, you know?

[Guy Winch]

And when it hit you upside the head, what feelings did that bring up when you had that insight?

[Jason]

I definitely felt guilty that he was in such bad shape, and it didn't occur to me, but I was sad too. Like, I was. You know, I have friends that have such great relationships with their parents, and I've never had that. And, yeah, I was just. I was sad more than anything. I think that I just didn't feel that sense to really kind of check on him and see how he was doing and. Yeah, guilt, but sadness, for sure.

[Gloria]

I think the sadness is such a big part of this. It's like grieving something that you never had.

[Jason]

Yeah.

[Gloria]

Tell us a little bit about what it was like when you were with your parents growing up and tell us what it's been like when you've been around them as an adult. Adult.

[Jason]

Okay. My dad was. Is an alcoholic still. He came from a very violent and dysfunctional home in the sense that my grandfather was a World War II vet that had a lot of problems, and he grew up. My dad grew up in a very ab. Abusive household, and that led to him being an alcoholic. My brother and I, you know, witnessed my parents fighting horribly and my mom smacking my dad and my dad just being horribly abusive verbally to my mom and just really nasty and hateful.

[Gloria]

What would you and your brother do when you were witnessing your parents fighting like this?

[Jason]

We try to leave, get out of the house, you know, but sometimes we couldn't. And so we just go into our rooms and just try to get away from it.

[Guy Winch]

What's the age difference?

[Jason]

He is just shy three years younger than me.

[Gloria]

So when. When this would happen, do you remember what it felt like in your body?

[Jason]

I remember always feeling Tense. And I would say that I probably. I felt scared as well, because I remember a moment when I was a teenager when my dad was having one of his outbursts. And I remember looking at him and saying, like, I'm not afraid of you anymore. And so I think there was a lot of just kind of fear. You just never knew when he was going to explode. It didn't even have to be something that we did. He could be mad at anything, and we would take the heat for it. His computer for work wasn't working one time, and he just launched into a tirade at us. I mean, he was physically abusive, but he was way worse emotionally abusive. And I think that's the critical piece that has led to me not having a really good relationship, because he's always called us such hateful names growing up, and he. I mean, he called us worthless and horrible things for as long as I can remember. And so there's like this big conflict between, he's my dad, and he can say he loves me and he's proud of me. But I always have this dialogue in the background from, like, yeah, but for so long, like, you told me I was worthless.

[Gloria]

What did it look like when he would tell you that he was proud of you? At what point did that happen? Did that happen in your childhood? Or did that happen once you got older and said you weren't afraid of him anymore?

[Jason]

Not until I got older. I think when I got out of high school, my brother and I both kind of handled the fallout from our childhood in two different ways. He got more mixed up into drugs and the alcohol, that sort of thing. And I've always been more inclined to achievement, success, to try to establish a sense of worth and value. And so he started saying those things to me as an adult, you know, after I graduate school, you know, after I was in the military and those types of things. Like, with each one of those, you know, feathers in my cap kind of thing, he would say that to me. And so I feel like I've always tried for achievement and stuff, looking for that sense of worth and value, but at the same time, when he says it to me, it. It does. It doesn't mean anything.

[Gloria]

It feels empty.

[Jason]

It's just a weird paradox, you know, where I'm just like, yeah, but I don't even. I don't even care if you're proud of me.

[Guy Winch]

How was the relationship with you guys when you were kids?

[Jason]

For a good part of our childhood, we definitely hung out together. And then when I moved away to college, the discrepancy between the way we were leading our lives became so great that for a long time, we didn't. We didn't really have any relationship.

[Gloria]

Well, he had to bear the burden of living with your parents by himself without you around once you left.

[Jason]

Yeah. Yeah. And he's. He's told me that things got much worse for him after I left.

[Guy Winch]

Were you worried about him when you left, or were you just so relieved to be out of the house that you wanted to just go and live your own life?

[Jason]

Yeah, I was just. I was so relieved to be out of the house and not be around it. I kind of didn't want any part of the old situation. And I think in part, that's kind of continued up to the. To this day, where I tell my wife all the time, like, I have PTSD from it. Like, I. I have no desire to go to their house. I. I try to keep my interactions as little as possible because it just brings up all that old stuff that it's. It's painful and uncomfortable. I was aware of the bad direction that his life was going in, and so there was a number of years until he kind of at least became functional, I guess, as an adult, where we didn't talk much at all. We talk now, you know, these days, but it's still. It's just not. It's not the same.

[Guy Winch]

Do you talk about the stuff? Do you talk about what happened? You talk about your concerns for him, the fact that you took different paths? Do you actually discuss that stuff?

[Jason]

Yeah. Yeah, actually, we talk about my parents quite a bit, but we just have, I guess, two different approaches and perspectives. He's okay getting together with my parents and drinking excessively. And so even though he has expressed to me, you know, hurt feelings and all those types of things, he tells me that he's forgiven them and he's moved on from it, but it's almost like it's kind of masked because he doesn't go around them unless he's drinking.

[Guy Winch]

Have you ever broached that topic of your relationship and how it's been impacted by this?

[Jason]

He has made comments to me in the past about how I left and it got worse for him and how he felt like he was always living in my shadow, kind of, and he was never good enough, and he was always being compared to me.

[Gloria]

When something like that happens, where parents do the comparing and they make one sibling feel like they need to live up to what the other sibling is doing, the irony of that is, instead of that sibling getting Angry at the parents for creating that situation. That sibling gets mad at the. At the person they're being compared to.

[Jason]

Yeah.

[Gloria]

As if it's your fault for being more stable in that time or your fault for achieving something in that time that you become the object of resentment, even though you're not the one doing the comparing.

[Guy Winch]

Right.

[Gloria]

And when you talk about your brother having this relationship with your parents where he is drinking around them, some people really are so unable to grieve what the relationship really is that they want to have some connection, and so they create a way of connecting with the parents, even if it's a dysfunctional way of connecting.

[Jason]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And we've talked about that. Where I express. It's difficult for me to be around them because of these reasons. And he's. He agrees with me. You know, I. I agree with you 100. But they're still our parents, and we have to have a relationship. They're our parents. And I don't have any way, I think, to. To get past the walls that have been put there by the way we were treated. And so I feel like he uses his drinking to get around those walls and just kind of pretend like everything's okay. And my parents do that as well in their relationship. They just pretend like everything's okay, sweep it under the rug, and I'm not capable of that.

[Guy Winch]

The other thing that I think might be keeping him there right now is that with you out of the picture, he's number one now with them. He's the son now that they can connect to and he can make up for a lot of lost time.

[Jason]

Yeah. Yeah. I never thought about it like that, but, yeah, it makes complete sense for.

[Gloria]

Sure when you say that everybody in your family pretends like nothing's going on. What was it like when you did have that conversation that you mentioned in your letter when you talk to your parents about some of the things that were really painful for you as a child?

[Jason]

So my dad had asked my brother and I to help him with a project at the house, and I reluctantly agreed to go. And my dad has just always had a horrible temper, and he just very quickly kind of ended up in extreme fit of anger and rage about the way things were going. And I had. My son and my wife were with me. My son was probably three at the time. I told my parents when my. When my son was born that I was not going to tolerate the drinking and that kind of behavior around my son, and that if they were going to continue to behave that way, they weren't going to see him because I wanted to protect him from that. And so my son was there. I told my wife to keep him in the house while. While my brother, my dad and I were in the backyard. And my dad and my brother just. They just started into it, screaming at each other at the top of their lungs, carrying on in each other's faces, like, almost to the point where they wanted to hit each other. And I turned around and my son was standing there. And the look on his face, his eyes were wide open, and it's like this look of shock and fear, like he had never seen anything like that before. And so I scooped him up and we left. My dad was very upset that we left. He felt like we left him hanging with the project. And, you know, I just told him, I said, I told you that I was not going to tolerate that kind of stuff around my kid. And I explained to him all the things I feel like were, like, the biggest issues for me. The, you know, the drinking, the calling us names, and the big incident, which I think I mentioned to you in the letter, where I was a kid, and he had asked me to start the car for him in the wintertime, and there was snow on the ground, and I. And I went out, and the passenger side of the car was parked against the curb. So I just opened the passenger door, I started the car for him, went inside. He went out to. To get in the car, and the driver's side was locked, and I was probably 9 or 10, and he went ballistic because he thought I locked the keys in his car with the key with the car running. And he had called AAA to unlock the car. And he's in my bedroom, screaming at me, right in my face, telling me I was stupid, telling me I was worthless. How could I do something so ignorant? And then he snorted like a big hunk of mucus and spit in my face and stormed out. I was watching out my bedroom window at the AAA guy trying to open the door to my dad's car. And I went downstairs and I went outside and I walked up to them and I opened the passenger door, because that's the door that I used. And so it was unlocked the whole time. And he just had this, like, stone look on his face like he couldn't believe that the door was actually unlocked. And so after this incident with my brother, you know, that was the big thing. I told him one of the worst things that ever happened to me as a kid, you know, and he responded to my brother and I, after The conversation by writing like a 10 page letter. And it had zero accountability for anything that we discussed was like 10 pages of here's all the things I've done for you. You know, here's all the experiences that I gave you. Here's this, that, and the other thing. And zero acknowledgment of all of the things that we brought up. You know, that you called us names, you told us we were worthless, you know, like physical abuse, like spitting in my face, like. And he's just like, I don't remember that.

[Gloria]

So it was a defense and a denial.

[Jason]

Yeah, yeah. That was probably six years ago, seven years ago. And so I've always had these moments where I've tried to establish relationship, where I've tried to be involved, where I feel like they're my parents, I should be involved. And then in the aftermath of that, I brought everything up. I've laid it all out there for you. The re.

[Gloria]

The.

[Jason]

The big things that, like, are so hurtful to me. And then to get no acknowledgment or anything, that was kind of like to sealed the deal for me where I was just like, okay, well, I don't even need to try anymore because you're going to continue with this behavior. You're going to keep drinking, you're going to keep yelling and being belligerent, and I just don't. I don't want to be part of that, you know?

[Gloria]

Was your brother a recipient of that letter too?

[Jason]

Yes. Yeah.

[Gloria]

And what was his reaction to the letter?

[Jason]

He thought it was junk, too. He just. I don't even remember. I don't remember us being mad about it, actually. I remember feeling really disappointed and just feeling like, what a waste of time.

[Gloria]

I just want to stop you there because I can't imagine that you wouldn't be angry to get that kind of response. And just the way you were talking about it a minute ago.

[Jason]

Yeah.

[Gloria]

You seemed really understandably angry that you'd been abused your whole life. You say, I don't want my child exposed to this, and it happens anyway. And then you explain to your father why you left. And here are all of these ways in which you'd been treated so badly. And instead of having compassion for you or taking responsibility for what he did, he just denied, deflected, quote unquote, didn't remember. And when you talk about feeling nothing toward your father now, and even feeling nothing when you got this letter, I think that might be a way of coping with the fact that there's probably so much Anger and so much sadness. And I wonder where all of that goes. What would happen if you actually acknowledge to yourself that you do feel something?

[Jason]

I mean, like I said, I am angry about it. I'm angry, I guess. But I guess my. My barometer for anger. After seeing the way my dad conducts himself, I think my barometer for anger is skewed a little bit. So maybe I associate rage with anger. I am angry. There's no acknowledgment, you know, angry and definitely sad.

[Gloria]

I hear the sadness because your voice is catching and I see your eyes tearing up a little bit. Tell us first about the anger. Can you say more about it? Because I think you're right, that for you, anger looks like violence.

[Jason]

Yeah.

[Gloria]

And what we're saying is anger is just a normal human emotion. And what it does is it sets an alarm and it says, wait a minute, something is not right here. I'm not being treated well. So it serves a useful purpose if you do something productive with the anger.

[Guy Winch]

Right.

[Gloria]

So can you give voice to your anger toward your father?

[Jason]

I don't even know how to express it because I feel like for me to express that I'm angry, it definitely makes me. It definitely makes me really tense and almost like move toward that violent rage where I just want to scream or something. You know what I mean?

[Guy Winch]

But, Jason, the difference between you and your dad is that you can feel that kind of rage and not go and scream at someone, and he feels it and he just lets it all out. I want you to get back to what Laurie asked you to do, to try and get in touch with that anger. But I want you to, when you're doing it, consider the fact that you're a dad now. You had that moment where your son is three and you saw the look on his face when he was exposed for a moment to that which you were exposed to your entire childhood. So can you extrapolate from that and knowing what it did to your son in a moment, what it must have been like for you, and try and talk about the angle from that perspective?

[Jason]

Yeah. The only way I can explain it is that I'm very aware on a moment to moment basis every day of those feelings. I. I can still. I can still hear him saying those things to me. And the only way I can describe it is like I tell my wife, like, I go to war every day trying to not be just completely consumed by it. And especially having children of my own. It's frightening to me to think that if I don't stay in Control that I can do something like that to them because I just look at them and I just see how innocent they are. And I was the same innocent little kid. I didn't deserve any of that. So I'm just definitely aware of it takes 100% focus for me to not be consumed by those feelings.

[Gloria]

Another difference between you and your dad is that he was also an innocent little kid at one point. And he was subjected to a father like the father he became. But what he did with all of his anger is he turned it outward. And the reason that we want you to talk about your anger is because if we push down, a feeling we are consumed by becomes even bigger. It has no air. And so when your father would feel anger, he didn't know what to do with it, and so he just lashed out. And when you feel anger, you're so afraid of it because you're so afraid of becoming him, that I think you turn it inward. I'm not a good son because I didn't call him in the hospital. Or I start to feel anger because, you know, just the way that parents do in a normal situation. Like my kid is whining about something and I'm getting really frustrated with my child right now, or they won't take.

[Lori Gottlieb]

Their nap or they, you know, whatever. It is just the normal day to.

[Gloria]

Day of being a parent. But for you, you start to think, oh, I'm starting to feel angry about something. What am I capable of doing? So I need to make sure I don't feel any anger because I'm afraid of anger. I'm terrified of anger. The problem with doing that is that you numb out what you're feeling. You don't have any access to what you're feeling.

[Jason]

Yeah. Yeah. I would say it's pretty accurate.

[Guy Winch]

Yeah.

[Gloria]

So imagining yourself as that young child, that moment when he spat in your face, to take a concrete example, tell us about how you might have felt right then. Tell us about the anger then.

[Jason]

That particular instance has so much weight for me. It haunts me because I just, I. I can still picture myself sitting at my desk in my bedroom and just feeling like, humiliated.

[Gloria]

You were humiliated. He humiliated you.

[Jason]

I just can't think of a more vile thing to do to disrespect somebody than the spit in their face.

[Gloria]

But you're laughing, and I think that that's how you manage your anger. And what we're trying to do here is to let you feel your anger and see that it's not as scary as you think it is. Yeah, that actually you will get some relief from this.

[Jason]

Right.

[Guy Winch]

Can I ask you, Jason, if you were able to travel back in time and inhabit your nine year old self, however old you were at that time, and respond to your dad from that place, forgetting for the moment that you were small and he could have just hit you, but what would you have said to him if you could in that moment?

[Jason]

How would you say, I'm just a kid. You know, I'm just a kid and I made a mistake and I don't deserve to be treated like that.

[Guy Winch]

Okay, first of all, you didn't even make a mistake, which is part of why this one sticks out for you that much. You actually didn't make a mistake. You didn't want to go into the street because you're not supposed to go into the street. So you open the door from the sidewalk side as you're supposed to as a child. But if you want tell him, if you wanted to tell him off, because you're inhabiting that body as an adult, so you can really tell him off in terms of what he's doing to you, what would you say to him then?

[Jason]

How could you treat your child in that way? How can you treat a kid worse than you would treat a stranger on the street?

[Gloria]

What I'm hearing from you is a very calm, rational adult responding to that kind of violent, abusive outburst. And I think what Guy is saying is, what do you think a kid's anger would look like if they felt free to express it in that moment? And I have a feeling it would go something like this, I hate you. I can't stand you.

[Jason]

Yeah. Yeah. I guess I just didn't want to say that out loud, I guess.

[Gloria]

Why not?

[Jason]

I guess because I can't imagine saying that to. To somebody that I loved, you know?

[Guy Winch]

And that's part of what inhibited you so much, that when you were a kid, you love the parents you have, no matter who they are. You hate them in certain moments, but they're your parents and they're the ones that feed you and clothe you and protect you, supposedly. So you do love them. There's a trap there. It's very difficult to hate them. But there's a part of you that felt exactly like Gloria said, I hate you. There's a part of you that felt you are a terrible, terrible father. It sucks that I ended up with you of all fathers. There's a part of you that wanted to say those things, that thought those things, but never gave them voice, never allowed himself to even in his own head, probably.

[Jason]

I definitely have thought that as a kid, for sure. I think as an adult, I haven't necessarily felt that outward, like I hate you sort of thing. I. I think the. That hate component has just kind of aged into apathy now, where I'm just. I don't necessarily hate him, but I'm indifferent.

[Gloria]

Did you feel indifferent when you saw your son's eyes bug out and he had to see your father's rage, or did you feel something else?

[Jason]

No, I was. I was very angry and protective.

[Gloria]

If you could give voice to that anger, what would it sound like?

[Jason]

This is a good exercise, giving voice to anger. It's very difficult.

[Guy Winch]

Yes. When you've blocked it for so long, it's very difficult.

[Jason]

Yeah. I guess in that moment, I just. I was angry and afraid for my son.

[Gloria]

If you could directly talk to your father, meaning in that moment, if you could express your anger in that moment, what would it have sounded like? Unedited.

[Jason]

I probably would have said, you sob. How dare you. I told you that I would never tolerate this. And you will never see him again.

[Gloria]

What is it like right now talking to us about your anger?

[Jason]

It's difficult because I've always associated it with such a negative thing. And so to constructively address it, talk about it in a productive way is.

[Gloria]

It's.

[Jason]

It's very difficult. It's foreign. Like I'm. I don't know what to do with it, you know?

[Gloria]

What do you do with your son's anger when he gets angry?

[Jason]

I just try to try to talk them down, you know, get down on their level and just try to de. Escalate, you know, let him know that I love him.

[Gloria]

What would it be like if, when your son is angry about something, to be able to say to him. I know. I can see how angry you are. I get it. I know how angry you are. I know you really, really want that third cookie. Have you ever been able to just really validate his anger, or are you more about, oh, don't be so angry or it's okay, I love you. What happens between the two of you around anger?

[Jason]

I have those moments. We have three more children too, so we have four total, and it's very busy.

[Gloria]

So I'm sure some anger comes up amongst the four.

[Jason]

Yeah. Yeah. When we have those moments, it just. It makes me feel. It makes me feel so. So good, so full that. That I feel like I'm helping them. I'm helping them to understand their feelings.

[Guy Winch]

I'm.

[Jason]

I'm validating them and letting them know that it's okay to feel that way, but we're going to try to work through that constructively. And those moments, I mean, can't do it all the time. That's why parenting's so hard. But those moments, it makes me so happy where I'm like, I'm proud of myself. That's the kind of treatment that I would have wanted.

[Guy Winch]

This is your way of correcting what you and your brother got. So it's your way of healing the universe by doing the correction that you never. Because I think, Jason, that you really grew up confusing, still do anger with uncontrolled anger. All anger you saw was uncontrolled. It was rage, it was belligerent, it was belittling, it was mad in all the way anger can be. But there's anger that is instructive and constructive and a part of daily life when it's controlled, when it's managed, when it's understood. And that is anger that is legit and important, and you need to make a distinction between them so that you're not afraid of that kind of anger. I did want to ask about your mom because she's a little absent for me in all of this.

[Jason]

He's always been very verbally abusive to her and demeaning and belittling and controlling. And my mom told us when we were younger, you know, I stayed with your dad for you guys, and we used to joke and say, well, thanks. You didn't really do us any favors. But she still. Even now we're grown, we're out of the house, like, he's still the same, and she's just okay with it, and she just kind of shrugs it off like, yep, that's your dad.

[Gloria]

Is that what you did when you were young? And he would yell at you or physically hit you, what would she do? Just, that's your dad. Or would she comfort you in any way?

[Jason]

I don't really have any kind of memory of her sticking up for us or intervening or comforting us in those moments. I honestly, I don't know that I have any memory of that.

[Gloria]

And did you feel anger toward your mom for not being able to acknowledge anything that happened in your childhood?

[Jason]

Yeah. But I think. I guess for me personally, I feel like the. The bulk of the damage per se was. Was at my father's hand. So I guess I've just. I've unknowingly kind of focused there.

[Guy Winch]

You said, Jason, that it's a war. You fight every day with these memories that you still hear his voice. Right. Like, these are real, like post traumatic. You were in the military, you know, that is, you know, post traumatic kinds of symptoms. What's the war that goes on in your head?

[Jason]

I am constantly trying to counter that dialogue with, no, you're not worthless, you're not stupid, you're not ignorant. You don't need people to say that you have value.

[Guy Winch]

You're still now trying to convince yourself that you have worth. Is that a war that you're still having in terms of your own self esteem, your own self worth? Obviously you're married, you have four kids. You sound like you're doing a great job with him. You said you had achievements and accolades, but you're still fighting that war of the fact that it means something.

[Jason]

Yeah, I definitely, I got to a place where I was trying to do so much that I was starting to get burnt out. And that's where I started to, I feel like, be a little more constructive with my narrative with myself and, and my wife is great. I talked to her about all this stuff and we have a great relationship. And it's 180 degrees from the kind of relationship that I was shown growing up. And even though I know I'm blessed, I have so much and everything is going well, I feel I'm very aware of, like I have to really, really work at every day being comfortable with where I'm at and acknowledging my wife and my children and how I'm blessed and I have value as a father and as a husband and that those are the things that really matter and all the other stuff doesn't.

[Guy Winch]

Laurie said earlier that sometimes when you try and put the anger aside, it's by numbing. But often when you numb, it numbs. Generally we're not very good with that kind of anesthetic. It's just a general anesthetic. It numbs the good stuff often too. Are you able to take in easily enough the reality of your new family, the warmth of it, the joy of it, the relationship with your wife that you've said is so different, the relationship with your kids that is so very different than the one your parents had with you?

[Jason]

I would say no. In a way, it's hard for me to, I guess, relax into that and just be okay with it. I still have a hard time just sitting still. I still have a hard time for any length of time just sitting on the floor playing with my kids. Like I, I have to stay busy and I'm aware of it and I'm aware of the thought in my Mind of my family is so great. Why can't I just relax and just settle into this and just be perfectly okay?

[Gloria]

The thing about growing up with trauma is that when you're finally out of jail, so it feels like you're in jail growing up, and then you're finally released and now you have this family where you feel like there's love, there's warmth, there's space for emotions, there's a respectful way of interacting with one another. There's also a sense of unreality to it. Like, is this real? Is this going to last? Will this go away at any moment? And that sometimes can prevent us from just being present in it and enjoying it. Because in the back of our minds, it's like, is this really happening? That sense of, I don't know if.

[Lori Gottlieb]

This is going to be here tomorrow.

[Gloria]

Even though you have no reason to believe that it won't. Are you experiencing any of that?

[Jason]

Yeah, yeah, it's. It gets better with time. But I know there's been plenty of times where I've had conversations with my wife where I've always been kind of hesitant to take time for myself. And I say to her, like, I would just feel guilty. I would feel guilty if I'm doing this and you need me to do that or something like that. And she's so accepting and just, you need to have your time. You need to do this. It's okay. I want you to do this. It's okay. And I've been very hesitant to make space for what my needs may be because I'm afraid. Well, I don't want to take too much time. I don't want her to be upset. I don't want this to end. This is so great.

[Gloria]

I think what you're talking about is that it's very uncomfortable when somebody sees you when for so long you haven't been seen and you don't trust feels so foreign to you. My needs matter. And am I going to be perceived as selfish if I take her up on this? What's the catch? How is this going to get turned around on me? Because there might have been times in your childhood where the moment you let down your guard, the other shoe dropped. And so you can't really trust this, that, oh, she wants me to take time for myself, but then is she later going to come back and say she resents me for it?

[Jason]

Yeah, that's pretty much it directly, yeah.

[Guy Winch]

If you did take time, what would you do with it?

[Jason]

I used to have a lot of hobbies, but since We've had kids. I don't really have much time for anything.

[Gloria]

So what were your hobbies?

[Jason]

I used to mountain bike quite a bit, play guitar.

[Gloria]

So when you're. When your wife says, go, take some time, what prevents you from getting on that bike?

[Jason]

It's like, all right, well, I already spent so much time out of the house working, and you were home with the kids the whole time. I feel bad if I'm going to go take a couple hours to go by myself and do something when I've already had time away from the family.

[Gloria]

Can I offer your wife's perspective?

[Guy Winch]

Sure.

[Gloria]

I'm guessing that her perspective might be you've been working so hard to support us and everybody needs a break. And you would probably even be more relaxed and joyful and playful and present if you could unwind a little bit. And so not only does it help you, but it would help me and it would help the kids if you would go spend a couple hours on that bike.

[Jason]

Yeah. I'm laughing because I've heard pretty much that exact thing.

[Guy Winch]

Yeah. And yet you resist it still.

[Jason]

Yeah.

[Gloria]

Yeah. It's that message. You said there's a war going on every day. It's the I don't deserve.

[Jason]

Yeah, for sure.

[Guy Winch]

Maybe the realization that hasn't filtered in yet, that the war is over.

[Jason]

That's a good point. I never thought about it like that.

[Guy Winch]

And if you did?

[Jason]

If I did, I would change everything.

[Guy Winch]

Tell us.

[Jason]

It would create a lot of space for a tremendous amount of joy.

[Guy Winch]

Oftentimes people feel in your situation, well, the war will be over. I'm going to say this very indelicately. The war will be over when they're dead.

[Jason]

Yeah, I've thought about that.

[Guy Winch]

Yeah. But you've already disconnected from them to a substantial degree. You keep the visits minimum. They come four or five times a year to your place, so it's supervised. You have the option to ask them to leave if they misbehave. The first hint of a war erupting, you would probably toss them out so you wouldn't have to be exposed to it. So you've already taken the steps to end that war or your exposure to it and to create such a different reality with your family. And you're not getting the joy, because when you said it, you said that would create so much space for joy, which means there's so much space for joy that you're not experiencing that you could.

[Jason]

Yeah.

[Gloria]

And I think what's taking up some of this space is this internal conflict you're having Jason, about what do I owe my parents at this time in my life? What is my responsibility to my parents, even if they were not able to be the kinds of parents that I needed?

[Jason]

Yeah.

[Gloria]

And how do I balance that with not going back into the war zone?

[Jason]

That's a good way to describe it. I definitely feel like, what are my obligations? I guess one of my responsibilities. What do I owe them? But because of where I'm at with the whole thing, it. My wife says, like, when they come over, it changes me. I'm definitely. I'm on edge. I'm on guard.

[Gloria]

What does happen when they come over and they're in your territory and your wife is there, so you have that support, and she knows exactly what's going on, so she can be there to kind of, you know, you can give her a look at. She can give you a look and.

[Jason]

Yeah.

[Gloria]

Does that happen with the two of you? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you have that kind of. You're seen. You're not like the child who feels completely isolated in the experience and alone and helpless, but you have your wife who can give you that look like, oh, my goodness, your parents just did that. They just said that. So what is that? Like, when they come over and they're.

[Jason]

On your turf, that's usually the only way. Like, I see them. Simply because I can control the circumstance in some way. Like, we don't. We don't have alcohol in the house, and we usually try to encourage them to visit earlier in the day because my dad can usually. He's usually fine up to a certain point, but he. He's been here deep into the afternoon, and then the switch flips, and you can tell that he's getting thirsty. Even though I've controlled for those variables as much as I can, I'm always on edge. I'm always on guard. But if I'm honest, when they come over, it's. They're usually fine now. I mean, they. Because he's not drinking, he's. He's fine. And my kids love to be around him. They're always pleasant when they're here, but I, for whatever reason, can't. I'm not comfortable letting down my guard, even though I've controlled for those variables that lead to bad things.

[Gloria]

Is there a part of you that wishes that the grandparents that they are to your kids could have been the parents that they were to you?

[Jason]

Absolutely.

[Gloria]

So we've been talking about anger. I think that's where the sadness comes in, where you can see the potential of what Things might have looked like, but you didn't get it. And even as an adult, you haven't gotten that acknowledgement or that apology from them.

[Jason]

Yeah, yeah, I've struggled with that as well. Do they owe me an apology? Like, how do I move forward knowing that that may never come?

[Gloria]

I think you know the answer to the question of whether you are owed an apology. The answer is yes, you are owed an apology. You can't get reparation for the time spent as a child where you were treated that way. But at the very least, an acknowledgment, an apology, something that says, I know that I did this to you and I am deeply, deeply sorry. But I think if you wait for that, that if you still hold out the hope for it, the war won't end. You know, I think the war ends when we let go of the hope of having a different childhood. And I think that waiting for the apology is leaving you in that limbo of still hoping for having a better childhood. Meaning, you know, that you can't go back and do childhood. But there's something about the apology that helps with that.

[Jason]

Yeah.

[Gloria]

And I think that where you are going to have to go with that is into some grief work around the childhood that you actually did have and around who your parents are and what their limitations are. And that's very different from numbing yourself from those feelings.

[Jason]

Okay?

[Guy Winch]

Because that's why your guard is up when they visit. It's not so much so you're ready in case dad loses his temper. It's so that all the feelings you have that come up when you see them actually behave, okay? When you see your kids connect to them, then it brings up all these feelings about what they did to you, what your dad did, what your mom didn't do to protect you, what they're giving to your kids now that they never gave to you. It brings up so many feelings that you have. That's why you're God is up not for the attack, but from the attack, from within.

[Gloria]

I also think that when you see your parents act in a way that feels good, that there is a part of you that is still hoping that they're going to see something that they haven't seen before about the way that they treated you and that the better behaved they are, even though you want that and you want that for your kids, that. That somehow it's gutting because there's a there there in some way you can see that, but they can't quite get to the place of saying, I'M really sorry. I see what I did. And I'm talking about both of them, your mother and your father. And so there's that paradox of it's great that they can behave themselves around my kids. It's great that we can have a pleasant enough time. But that brings up that hope of. And if they can do that, maybe they can apologize. And when they don't, you get devastated all over again.

[Jason]

Yeah, I definitely think that tying into that is every time my mom or my dad tries to kind of make me feel guilty for, like, we don't see you enough, that narrative starts where I'm. Where I'm just like, you don't understand. Like, if you just apologize, if you just acknowledge this, you know, do you.

[Gloria]

Ever say that to them? Do you ever tell them, you know, I think that you don't understand the reason that I don't see you as much as you would like?

[Jason]

No, I haven't. Not from that angle. I mean, I've told them, you're welcome to come over to our house whenever you would like. Just let us know you want to come over. But in that regard, even if we invite them, they don't carve out a lot of time at all. Their schedule is packed and they rarely have time. So it's that weird thing where they're going to try to make me feel guilty for not coming.

[Guy Winch]

Is their schedule to deed packed or is it that an hour and a half drive, an hour and a half drive back, a few hours over there, and that's already a lot of hours without drinking for your dad. Often what happens with alcoholics is they don't want to be that far from a drink. And if they can't drink at your place, which I think they are not allowed to and they know that, then coming there is difficult because it's being dry for way longer than he would ordinarily.

[Jason]

Yeah, I think so for sure. Because I know if they go to my brother's house, who's about the same distance from them in another direction, they can visit there for a lot longer. But my brother drinks and lets them drink and.

[Guy Winch]

Right.

[Jason]

So I'm sure that's a huge part of it. Yeah.

[Guy Winch]

Does your brother visit? Does he have a family? Does he visit.

[Jason]

Visit us? Yeah, yeah, yeah. He. He comes here. Not that much. In fact, the last time he came to visit, they came in the morning and he brought beer with him and was drinking. 9, 30, 10 in the morning.

[Gloria]

Did you feel comfortable with that?

[Jason]

It concerns me for sure.

[Gloria]

Have you and your brother Ever discussed his alcoholism and has he ever gotten treatment for it?

[Jason]

No. He's had a history of drug overdoses before. He was inpatient, when he was a senior in high school, I think for attempted suicide. He smokes marijuana regularly, drinks regularly. And I've asked him, why do you feel the need to do those things? Like why do you feel the need to drink that much? And he's professed, sometimes where I have a problem, I drink too much or I probably need to cut back. And he's aware that he has a problem and then he tries to get better and then he goes right back to it.

[Gloria]

You know, after the suicide attempt, what was your parents reaction to that? Did that serve as any kind of wake up call for them?

[Jason]

He has told me that after he got released that my mom took him to a bunch of different counselors and that the counselors had kind of presented to my mom some of the reasons for why he was having these behaviors, implying that it was outcomes from our home life, you know, that sort of thing. And my mom didn't like it, so she'd take him to another counselor. Another counselor.

[Guy Winch]

He.

[Jason]

He went to four or five different ones because from what he tells me, my mom wasn't getting the answers that she wanted, which was that he had a serious problem. From what he says that they were pointing out that it was a outcome of, you know, my. My dad's drinking and that kind of stuff that has led to this. And she didn't want to hear that.

[Gloria]

I think maybe he doesn't understand that the war is over either, that as an adult he can go get treatment and he can go understand some of these things better, so he can understand himself better and what's holding him back from really being present in his life. So I think both of you kind of came out of the war shell shocked with tons of ptsd, and you still don't understand what it means to be out of the war zone.

[Guy Winch]

Yeah.

[Jason]

Yeah, for sure.

[Gloria]

It's interesting because you're trying so hard not to be your dad, and he was trying so hard not to be his dad. I think that you personalize the fact that he can't apologize to you, but in his mind, I think he truly believes I was such a better dad to my kids than my dad was to me. And he probably feels like he's not getting any credit for it, and that's why he defends himself so much. And also the shame that comes up when he realizes I actually was like my dad in a lot of ways. And he has so much shame around that that he just can't acknowledge it himself, much less to you. That doesn't excuse any of his behavior. But it might give you a different kind of framework to think about why he had to write the 10 page manifesto to you, why he can't acknowledge the effect that his behavior had on you.

[Jason]

Yeah, I've thought about that. As much as I want them to own it and acknowledge it to me, I can see how that would be very difficult.

[Gloria]

What I'm saying, Jason, is that it's hard to acknowledge to somebody else what you won't acknowledge to yourself. And I don't think that your dad can hold onto anything that happened from your perspective because he feels so much shame. He feels so much like, I tried so hard to get away from being my father. And when you bring this up, he thinks maybe I was like my father in these ways. And I don't think he can acknowledge that to himself long enough, if at all, to be able to acknowledge that to you.

[Jason]

Yeah, yeah.

[Gloria]

What you're talking about is intergenerational trauma, that we have an emotional inheritance, just like we have a genetic inheritance with our DNA and our physical characteristics. There's an emotional inheritance too, that gets passed down from generation to generation until somebody puts a stop to it. And it sounds like you are that person in your family doing that for the next generation. And while you're doing that, you're having some conflict about what does that mean to do that and also be a good son.

[Guy Winch]

So, Jason, we do have some advice for you. And that advice comes from the following place. We spoke about intergenerational trauma and we really see it in your family. Your grandfather had World War II, your dad had the residual of World War II that his dad brought home, and that was his own war. And then you've had your own war with your dad. And what we're so impressed with is the remarkable job that you've done at making sure you're the last one to deal with a war, because you've done a masterful job of finding a way to end the war and to protect your family and even to protect yourself. You can have your parents come and visit in a way that's safe because it's for limited amounts of time, it's earlier in the day, but they can be there for your kids. They can have grandparents, and you can even see them in action with all the difficult feelings that brings up. And it's not just that you've stopped the transmission of the intergenerational trauma, you've really done things in a radically different way. Your brother's drinking at 9:30, and you've had to come such a long way in order to make sure it stops with you. But you have, and we're not sure that that part has really registered with you yet, because you're still at war with your feelings. So peacetime is here, and you're not enjoying it because you're still living the war. And so what we'd like you to do this week is we'd like you to come up with a ritual that symbolizes the end of the war. When we were talking about that, one thing I thought about was that iconic image of the sailor in Times Square kissing that lady. You're smiling, you know the image. And we were thinking maybe you and your wife need to replicate that image or do something similar. But really, just as an example, we want you to come up with some kind of ritual in which you and your wife know that you are celebrating the fact that you've ended the war and you've done it really successfully. We think despite the war, you're still at with your feelings. So that's one of the tasks we'd like you to accomplish this week. To talk with your wife, think together, and really come up with a ritual that would be symbolic for you to imply, the war's over, I won it for myself and for my family, and I'm going to enjoy it because we are living in peace.

[Jason]

Okay, I like that.

[Gloria]

And then because we feel like the war that you're still waging is the war with your feelings. And specifically anger, sadness and grieving, we feel like that the price that you pay for the war with your feelings is that you do cut off joy. And so we want you to end that war as well. And one way to do that is to start really getting in touch with those feelings in the way that you did in our conversation today. But what we'd like you to do is we'd like you to write down three incidents from childhood that were painful for you. And then we'd like you to make two columns. We'd like you to make an anger column and a sadness column. And we'd like you to write down in great detail without editing yourself. Like earlier when I said, what would that young boy say when his father spit in his face? And I said, I think he might say, I can't stand you. And you said, oh, I could never say that, but the little boy was probably feeling that. And so we want you to write down in the anger column and in the sadness columns in great detail, what that little boy might say, and it might help you to think about if you did that to your kids, what might they be feeling? And that will get you closer to some of those feelings that feel so scary to you. They feel like the enemy. Anger is the enemy because anger looks like emotional or physical violence. Sadness is the enemy because it brings back all those memories. But what you don't realize is that there's also the sides of anger and sadness that are very healing and very liberating. And we think it'll be quite a relief for you to finally be able to have access to those feelings. In that spirit, it will help you to enjoy the post war era that you're now in. And so what we'd like you to do is we'd like you to spend two hours a week experiencing the joy that comes with the end of the war. And for you, that might be mountain biking, it might be playing the guitar. It might be any of those hobbies that are truly just for you. How does that sound to you?

[Jason]

That's a lot, but I'm looking forward to it. Yeah, I like the analogy of peacetime and ending the war. I think that resonates with me pretty significantly.

[Gloria]

So, yeah, there's one more thing that I left out, which is that as you're getting in touch with your feelings, you will get closer to your truth. And that's a really positive development. Because when your mother then sends guilt to you or your father sends guilt to you, first of all, just because somebody sends guilt doesn't mean you have to accept delivery. I want you to remember that you don't have to sign for the package. And the other part of that is you can say your truth, which is that mom, dad, the reason that we don't get together more, the reason that I don't come to your house, is because we have a lot of stuff between us that's not been acknowledged. And I find it really difficult. And so I found a way to spend time with you that works out well. When we do it the other way, it doesn't work out too well. And if there comes a time when you're willing or able to acknowledge some of the things that are still in the air between us that might make it easier for us to get together in a different way. So if you are open to that, I'm here. And if you're not, I'm glad to see you in the way that works for all of us. Okay, we don't know if that conversation will happen this week, and we don't know how often the guilt is delivered to you.

[Jason]

Yeah.

[Gloria]

But if it does, and that does happen this week, and you're able to say that, we'd like to hear how that goes as well.

[Jason]

Okay.

[Gloria]

And if it doesn't happen this week, we'd like you to have that in your back pocket for the next time the guilt comes to your doorstep.

[Jason]

Okay. Sounds good. Thank you guys so much. I can't tell you how much I appreciate your time.

[Guy Winch]

You're very welcome. I think Jason is gonna do everything we suggested. He seems like someone who. Who does his best at most things, and so I'm sure he's gonna do it. I really hope he does it in a way that allows him to get the emotional experience and the emotional benefits that we're so much advocating for.

[Gloria]

And I think creating a symbol of the end of war that comes from him is going to help him have a framework around the work that he has to do. So he's doing some things this week that I think are gonna be very helpful for him, and I think that they're going to set the stage for a continuation of the work that is going to help him truly live in peacetime.

[Guy Winch]

You're listening to dear therapists from iHeartradio. We'll be back after a quick break.

[Lori Gottlieb]

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So, Guy, we heard back from Jason and let's see if he was able to take some steps to end the war.

[Jason]

Hey, Lori. Hey Guy, it's Jason. Just wanted to check back in with you guys and follow up after our conversation from earlier in the week.

[Guy Winch]

Foreign.

[Jason]

For us here, we actually were in the process of moving this week, and my wife's grandfather died suddenly in the midst of all of that. So we had quite a bit of big family stress going on this week. But be that as it may, I was able to still accomplish the tasks that, that you assigned me. The first one, you know, getting together with my wife and kind of coming up with a way to celebrate peacetime. I think that's just been really beneficial to kind of begin my day connecting with her and just kind of reaffirming the fact that the war is over and it's peacetime now. And I don't know if it was your intention or not, but you kind of gave me a new mantra that I've been able to kind of fall back on and use that, especially during the stress of this week, that I can constantly remind myself that the war is over and we're. We're in peacetime now. In writing out experiences from my childhood, it's interesting to me that the hard part for me is to still be completely honest to the feelings. Kind of how it was when we spoke the first time, how it was hard for me to actually be able to verbalize things such as I hate you and that sort of thing. Even even though it's not being verbalized, just still the pen to paper, it's still difficult to kind of give life to those feelings. I don't know how to describe it in your way, but nonetheless, I feel like it's a practice that I'm going to continue to evolve, reflecting on things when they, when the. When events and memories pop up that I can. I can sit down and write them out and journal it, so to speak, and really try to kind of give life to those feelings in a safe way. Writing it down on paper. I didn't have an opportunity to actually speak to my parents about talking with you guys. The podcast that sort of thing. But my mom did come over to help us watch the kids a little bit, to help us pack while we were dealing with this move. And it was a good visit. Obviously we were under a lot of stress and I was really tired, but I think I was still able to kind of enjoy visiting with her knowing that I kind of, like I said, had that mantra to fall back on, that the war is over and it's peacetime now and so I can actually just try to enjoy things as they are. So yeah, it's been a rough week, but it's been a great week and I honestly think that this week would have been substantially more difficult if I hadn't had the blessed opportunity to, to speak with the two of you prior to, to the events unfolding. So I, I cannot convey my gratitude enough for how thankful I am for your guys insight and for the time taking the time to, to speak with me and kind of to deal with some of these issues. I, I can't thank you enough. I appreciate everything you did for me and I wish you guys both the best moving forward. Thanks again. Bye.

[Guy Winch]

So first I really want to offer our condolences to Jason's wife. It's really interesting that we gave him this assignment about the war being over on a week where they have to move, the grandfather dies. But even more proof of how well he took it to heart that he was able to persist and do those tasks during this very difficult week and really take in this idea of the war being over. I think it's a great mantra for him. He has a military background, but I do think it's a great, simple way to remind himself. He probably says it to himself many, many times a day. And I'm glad he does. I'm really glad that worked for him.

[Gloria]

Yeah, he had an incredibly stressful week, but I think it's easier to get through the stresses of life when you're.

[Lori Gottlieb]

Not in a war.

[Gloria]

And even when his mother came over, which normally could be stressful, he had a nice visit with her again because not only is the war over, but he was the one who got to declare it to be over.

[Lori Gottlieb]

And that's an important piece because when.

[Gloria]

The war is internal, it's always in.

[Lori Gottlieb]

Our power to end it. Next week, our fellow traveler struggles with the heartbreak of infertility and pregnancy loss.

[Gloria]

I had a really, really, really hard time with that loss. I was probably a month out from surgery when my brother and sister in law announced they were pregnant. It really kind of sucked the air out of me. And that really caused like a big friction in my relationship with my brother and sister in law because I just didn't want to be around them.

[Lori Gottlieb]

Hey fellow travelers, if you're enjoying our podcast each week, don't forget to subscribe for free so that you don't miss any episodes. And please help support Dear Therapists by telling your friends about it and leaving a review on Apple Podcasts. Your reviews really help people to find the show.

[Guy Winch]

If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us, big or small, email [e-mail] our executive producer is Noel Brown.

[Lori Gottlieb]

We're produced and edited by Mike Johns, Josh Fisher and Chris Childs. Our interns are Do Corwin and Silver Lifton. Special thanks to Allison Wright and to our podcast fairy godmother Katie Couric.

[Guy Winch]

We can't wait to see you at next week's session.

[Lori Gottlieb]

Dear Therapist is a production of iHeartradio.

Are you looking for ways to make your everyday life happier, healthier, more productive, and more creative? I'm Gretchen Rubin, the number one best selling author of the Happiness Project, bringing you fresh insights and practical solutions in the Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast. My co host and happiness guinea pig is my sister, Elizabeth Kraft. That's me, Elizabeth Kraft, a TV writer and producer in Hollywood. Join us as we explore ideas and hacks about cultivating happiness and good habits. Check out Happier with Gretchen Rubin from lemonada Media.