Dear Therapists: Jennifer's Fiance's Instagram Flirtations

Summary

Podcast Summary: Since You Asked with Lori Gottlieb and Gretchen Rubin

Episode: Dear Therapists: Jennifer's Fiance's Instagram Flirtations

Date: December 9, 2025
Host: Lemonada Media (via Dear Therapists: Lori Gottlieb & Guy Winch)
Featured Guest: Jennifer

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1. Overview of the Episode’s Main Theme

This episode features a crossover session from Lori Gottlieb’s “Dear Therapists” podcast with co-host Guy Winch. The centerpiece is Jennifer, a 42-year-old woman troubled by her fiancé Dan’s repeat history of “Instagram flirtations”—including renewed online contact with a former affair partner that previously ended Dan’s marriage. Jennifer is torn between her desire for family stability and her discomfort with Dan’s behavior, alongside financial dependencies and echoes of her own family history.

The therapists guide Jennifer to examine her agency, beliefs, and emotional traps, giving practical exercises for reframing her personal narrative, and offering clear advice on addressing the relationship issues head-on.

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2. Key Discussion Points and Insights

A. Jennifer’s Dilemma: Stability vs. Self-Respect

• Jennifer recounts a whirlwind, complicated relationship—her unplanned pregnancy with Dan hastened a blended family arrangement.
• She feels responsible to Dan’s kids and her own, fearing upheaval if she leaves, but struggles with trust due to Dan’s online indiscretions.
• Financial dependence on Dan amplifies her feeling of being “stuck.”
• Her longing for connection is contrasted with the repeated letdown of Dan’s boundary-crossing behavior.

"My soul says I can't possibly be happy with a man who behaves in such a sneaky manner, but I feel obligated to these kids, especially the daughter who has endured so much chaos."
— Jennifer (04:08)

B. Relationship History and Red Flags

• Early on, Dan equivocated about commitment but quickly reinitiated the relationship.
• Jennifer recognizes her pattern of settling due to loneliness and insecurities.
• Both admit that if not for the baby, they might not have stayed together—a point that recurs throughout the episode.

"He was great with words... He’s the one person I have ever been with that has made me feel loved."
— Jennifer (14:58)

• Lori flags Dan’s habit of giving “romantic” justifications for careless behavior (e.g., suggesting pregnancy as proof of love) as problematic.

C. The Instagram Cheating

• Twice discovered over the past year; involved women from Dan’s past, including the affair that ended his previous marriage.
• Jennifer notes Dan seems to minimize the emotional impact or reframe the cheating as insignificant, often getting defensive or blaming her “trust issues” when she brings it up.

“It’s an apology that doesn’t take responsibility. It’s like something happened in the world that hurt you, as opposed to ‘I am sorry that I hurt you.’”
— Lori Gottlieb (22:18)

D. Therapy Avoidance and Unspoken Fears

• Despite agreeing to counseling, neither Dan nor Jennifer takes concrete steps to attend. Both evade full emotional engagement.
• Jennifer fears that fully voicing her needs or pain will lead to rupture or confirm her anxiety that she “can’t keep the good guy.”
• She also dreads uncovering more dishonesty—she’d rather avoid knowing if another betrayal occurred.

E. Patterns from Family of Origin

• Jennifer details her father’s long-ago affair, her mother’s resentment and emotional withdrawal, and how these dynamics were never resolved.
• Both therapists note that Jennifer is in danger of replicating her mother’s passive, unfulfilled path if she does not address her own needs and agency.

"You are forewarned by your mom's experience that you have to do the work to repair. Otherwise you might end up like your mom, being sad in your room, feeling lonely even though there are people around."
— Guy Winch (47:16)

F. Exercises and “Homework”

• Rewriting Her Narrative: Jennifer is tasked with writing her life story in the active voice, recognizing her choices rather than viewing herself as a passive subject of circumstance (“I chose not to use birth control” vs. “I accidentally got pregnant”).
• Initiating Therapy: She is encouraged to present therapy to Dan by referencing her parents’ unresolved distrust, framing counseling as a proactive way to prevent their pain repeating.

“It’s time to get your driver’s license... be more intentional about the decisions that you make now.”
— Lori Gottlieb (54:12, 58:06)

G. Impact on Children

• Children, whether Jennifer’s or Dan’s, will sense unresolved tension at home.
• Lori reassures Jennifer that seeking therapy and confronting issues helps children more than hiding or avoiding the conflict.

"Kids do best when there’s not some secret hovering in the household. You know that from personal experience."
— Lori Gottlieb (55:37)

H. Follow-Up: Jennifer’s Progress

• Jennifer gives a positive update: Dan responded well to her therapy proposal (“He was very open... thought it was a good idea we do that before we get married.” – 63:18).
• Writing her story in the active voice was empowering, though it stirred regret about past passivity.
• She decides to pursue individual therapy to work on her own unresolved issues.
• While still apprehensive about what counseling might reveal, she expresses determination to “be more in the driver’s seat.”

“The good thing is I’m wanting to face the truth, whatever way it is, and I feel ready to be more in the driver’s seat in my life.”
— Jennifer (64:29)

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3. Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Jennifer’s Dilemma:

“Should I marry him or wait and see how the next few years go and is his cheating behavior worth ruining the stability and happiness all the kids now finally have?”
— Jennifer (04:26)

On Relationship Patterns:

“My story is ‘I don’t really get fully what I want, so I can’t ask for too much.’ And I think it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.”
— Guy Winch (37:09)

On Agency:

“The more you can tell the truth about the two of you and your story, the more you’ll be able to tell the truth about the two of you and your story going forward.”
— Lori Gottlieb (43:12)

Therapist’s Homework Assignment:

“We want you to literally write it as an essay. This is your story... Write everything in the active voice.”
— Guy Winch (53:08)

On Family Cycles:

“Just because your parents didn’t repair what they needed to repair and their story is kind of stagnant, I wonder if you can move to a different place and create a wholly original story.”
— Lori Gottlieb (48:34)

On Children Sensing Problems:

“Kids are very perceptive.”
— Guy Winch (56:10)

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4. Timestamps for Important Segments

| Time (MM:SS) | Segment | |------------------|------------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:20 | Introduction of Jennifer’s dilemma | | 04:08 | Jennifer’s letter is read (her financial, emotional constraints) | | 09:29 | Jennifer describes relationship origins | | 14:58 | Discussion of Dan’s actions vs. words | | 18:06 | Red flags: pregnancy rationalizations | | 22:18 | Lori on “non-apology” apology | | 28:00 | Jennifer describes healthy parts vs. missing depth | | 31:13 | On whether they’d have stayed together if not for baby | | 36:07 | Discussion of therapy avoidance | | 40:30 | Discussion of being “emotionally trapped” | | 47:16 | Parallels to Jennifer’s mother’s experience | | 53:08 | Homework: Write your story in the active voice | | 54:12 | Lori’s driver’s license analogy | | 55:37 | Reassurance: therapy helps children, secrets harm | | 62:42 | Jennifer’s follow-up call |

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5. Tone, Language, and Style

The tone was empathetic, candid, and gently challenging. Both therapists validated Jennifer’s pain and acknowledged the complex web of responsibilities and fears. Lori and Guy deftly blended compassionate listening with firm nudges toward agency and truth, using metaphors (“driver’s license,” “rewriting your story”) to make change tangible and relatable. Jennifer, at times tearful and conflicted, opened up vulnerably but showed hope by the end.

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6. Final Takeaways

• Jennifer’s situation embodies the often-unspoken tension between family cohesion and personal fulfillment, especially in blended families post-infidelity.
• The therapists highlight the importance of honest self-inquiry, rewriting old narratives, and understanding the difference between proximity and genuine emotional connection.
• The “active voice” exercise is a practical, insightful strategy for reclaiming agency and breaking family cycles.
• Addressing relationship issues directly—especially through therapy—not only serves the adult partners but benefits their children as well.
• Jennifer’s positive update demonstrates that shifting narrative and taking initiative can open new doors, even in long-standing, stuck patterns.

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This episode provides a powerful look at the intersection of love, trust, family legacy, and self-ownership—highly relevant for anyone facing hidden resentments or feeling passive in their own life story.

Transcript

[Lori Gottlieb]

Lemonade.

Hi everyone, it's Lori. This week and next we're sharing my other podcast, Dear Therapists, where my fellow therapist, Guy Winch, and I do real sessions that you can sit in on. We offer practical interventions and then hear how these suggestions worked out after the session. Today's session is with Jennifer, whose fiance exchanged romantic messages with an old girlfriend, and Jennifer feels stuck about how to address this in her relationship. So you'll hear her letter, we'll bring her on live for the session, give her some homework to do, and hear how it all went when she put it into practice. I think you'll really enjoy this and also learn something about yourself along the way. So here's the episode.

Hey fellow travelers. I'm Laurie Gottlieb, I'm the author of maybe youe Should Talk to Someone. And I write the Dear Therapist advice column for the Atlantic.

[Guy Winch]

And I'm Guy Winch. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid, and I write the Dear Guy advice column for ted. And this is Dear Therapists.

[Lori Gottlieb]

Each week we invite you into a session so you can learn more about yourself by hearing how we help other people come to understand themselves better and make changes in their lives.

[Guy Winch]

So sit back and welcome to today's session.

[Lori Gottlieb]

This week, a woman wonders if her fiance's past infidelities on social media spelled trouble for their future together.

[Jennifer]

It was an infatuation, but it wasn't until I caught him this past summer where he said that he had been in love with her like I didn't know that he had felt that way towards her.

[Guy Winch]

First, a quick note. Dear Therapist is for informational purposes only, does not constitute medical or psychological advice, and is not a substitute for professional health care advice, diagnosis or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional, or other qualified health provider with any questions you may have regarding a medical or psychological condition. By submitting a letter, you are agreeing to let iheartmedia use it in part or in full, and we may edit it for length and clarity. In the sessions you'll hear all names have been changed for the privacy of our fellow travelers.

Hi Laurie.

[Lori Gottlieb]

Hey Guy.

[Guy Winch]

So what do we have today?

[Lori Gottlieb]

Well, today we have a complicated relationship.

[Laurie Gottlieb]

Situation and it goes like this.

[Lori Gottlieb]

Dear therapists, I'm a 42 year old woman who for the past decade has been a single mom of one, but who now is engaged to Dan, a wonderful man with two kids, both teens. Like my son, a year into our dating I became unintentionally pregnant, which sped along the cohabitation process. My son and I moved into Dan's house just two years after his contentious divorce. The first year was really rough. Dan's daughter hated me and acted out in rage often and it felt like things weren't going to be able to work. I felt terribly guilty for the pregnancy and for putting all the kids into this rushed and overwhelming situation. Dan and I had good communication throughout, but at times wondered if we'd be together if it wasn't for our baby that we both wanted. Nowadays, everything feels great. His daughter has changed and it feels like a real blended family. We plan to get married and have a lot of hope for our futures and love the kids and what we've created. However, twice in the past year I've discovered him quote, cheating on me with women on Instagram, one being the woman he had had an affair with, which helped ruin his marriage. I was devastated and almost left him, but we got through it. He really wanted to work it out and deleted the app. We agreed to therapy, though we haven't started yet, but sometimes he rolls his eyes about it and he's made comments about his, quote, cheating as though it wasn't a big deal and gives me the impression he's just doing therapy for my sake, like he doesn't see what's wrong with what he did. I worry that this will be an ongoing pattern. My soul says I can't possibly be happy with a man who behaves in such a sneaky manner, but I feel obligated to these kids, especially the daughter who has endured so much chaos. I also fear becoming a single mom again and doing that to the new baby. I want to trust my partner, but he's downloaded the app again and sometimes I snoop on it to check up on him. He gets really annoyed when I ask to look at his phone and sometimes a fight can send him into doubts about us. Otherwise. He professes great love for me and a deep commitment to making us work. My question is, should I marry him or wait and see how the next few years go and is his cheating behavior worth ruining the stability and happiness all all the kids now finally have? The truth is I can't leave even if I wanted to. I'm financially bound to him as I've had to cut my hours to take care of the baby and I don't have a good job. Your help would be appreciated, Jennifer.

[Guy Winch]

Jennifer is in a real pickle because on the one hand she's telling us she can't leave for financial reasons, which is a situation many people find themselves in and it's truly very, very difficult because you're making really radical choices about financial security, food insecurity potentially, and staying in a situation that can make you potentially unhappy. Now she sounds optimistic, like she wants to work on things and help them work out. And my concern is that he, like many people, is really minimizing this activity on social media because it's just social media. It doesn't really count. It's not really cheating, it's not really flirting he when it counts.

[Lori Gottlieb]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Laurie Gottlieb]

And something that she said really stuck out to me, which was she said, I know my soul can't live with this. And then the other sentence was, but I can't leave. And so I think she's trying to justify to herself why this is going to be okay if something doesn't change.

[Lori Gottlieb]

You know, her option was should I marry him or should I wait a.

[Laurie Gottlieb]

Few years and see how it goes.

[Lori Gottlieb]

When they really have to address it now. So let's go talk to her and.

[Laurie Gottlieb]

See what's going on.

[Guy Winch]

Yes.

You'Re listening to dear therapists from iHeartradio. We'll be back after a quick break.

[Lori Gottlieb]

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[Lori Gottlieb]

I'm Lori Gottlieb.

[Guy Winch]

And I'm Guy Winch and this is Dear Therapists. Hi Jennifer and welcome to the show.

[Jennifer]

Hi. Thank you. Thanks for having me.

[Laurie Gottlieb]

Well, welcome.

[Jennifer (Follow-up Call)]

Thank you.

[Laurie Gottlieb]

So Jennifer, can you tell us a little bit about the beginning of the relationship, how you met, where you both were in your lives?

[Jennifer]

Oh, we met. It's going on three years ago on a dating app and it was an app where the woman selects the man and starts the conversation. So I was the pursuer, quote unquote. And we dated for a good two months and kind of felt like a exciting beginning. He had been fresh off of a divorce, had only been living on his own with his kids for about nine months when we met.

[Guy Winch]

Does he have full custody?

[Jennifer]

They have joint custody a couple days a week and every other weekend. So he had expressed at the beginning of dating where he was at. He was very clear about that, about hesitancy to get into a full fledged relationship. And two months into dating he pulled back, but then very quickly came back. And from that coming back point, we were just in a relationship. And it was by the almost the year anniversary of us meeting that I became pregnant.

[Laurie Gottlieb]

When he told you early on that he wasn't looking for a relationship yet, why did you continue? Were you looking for a relationship?

[Jennifer]

I was. I've always been insecure in my dating life. I haven't had many successful relationships. I had been a single mom for a good decade, had a relationship on and off with somebody for about five or six years that was always fraught with non commitment. And I was in a very lonely spot. I knew I should and wanted to be in a relationship. I wanted to get married someday and have that normalcy. So I was ready to look for a marriage partner.

[Laurie Gottlieb]

So when he told you, he was not, what made you want to continue to pursue it?

[Jennifer]

Because he would also say things like he wanted that again at some point. He knew that down the road that's where he wanted to be. He just felt like he was in this bachelor stage after the divorce, you know, he was still kind of processing that whole thing. But when we first started dating, he made a lot of really positive comments, like romantic things, I guess, like, can really see myself with you. It's great that our kids are around the same age. You know, I know in the future what I want is to be in a relationship again and, you know, to not be alone.

[Guy Winch]

So after a couple of months, he pulled away and then came back. Tell us what happened there. What was the pulling away about? What was the coming back about and what was you accepting him back about?

[Jennifer]

It felt to me like a spur of the moment thing. He had come over one night, I had a couple friends over and it was a fun evening together with dinner, and all of a sudden we're in the kitchen and he said, I was honestly thinking of ending things with you. I feel like my emotions are all over the place. It was a couple months into the relationship and he felt like where we were at was either stop dating or make it a relationship. And he didn't feel quite ready. He was scared to make it a relationship at that point.

[Guy Winch]

What was that like to you?

[Jennifer]

Oh, it was crushing. It was very defeating for me. And it almost, like, reinforced my story, I guess. Like.

Yet another person doesn't want to be with me. I just accepted it with Grace. I didn't really try to hang onto him, and I didn't. I stopped texting him. I just let him.

Make the decision, and I. I was okay with that. It was out of my hands. I was done trying to prove myself, you know. So then, like, a week later, he texted me that he was sorry, he hoped I didn't hate him. He invited me to talk, and I had written him a letter and sent it to him explaining how I view relationships and just making it really clear what I was looking for. And so then we met, and he kind of started the pursuit track again. You know, it's right around Valentine's Day, and he left me flowers, and then he wanted to go on a trip together to kind of see how we did with each other for several days in a row. And I guess I passed that test. I think he talked a lot through with his mother, and he felt like, even though he had dated that whole year, that I was the most compatible person that he'd met. And he was kind of, like, scared to end things permanently, you know, what if someone else didn't come along after that?

[Laurie Gottlieb]

So he kind of wanted to be in a safe place for him, which is, I'm not really going to commit to you, but I also don't want to let you go.

[Jennifer (Follow-up Call)]

Yeah.

[Laurie Gottlieb]

And you were in a place of, I'm really lonely. I'll take what I can get. And I enjoy this person.

[Jennifer]

Yeah. And I felt really loved by him. He was a giver. He says a lot of words of affirmation, which I feel like that's my love language.

[Laurie Gottlieb]

If he's good with the words, how is he with the actions?

[Jennifer]

He's great. I mean, he's the one person that I have ever been with that has made me feel loved. Like. Like he really shows his love through gifts and showing up on time. He's always very mindful of texting and being communicative. He takes care of everybody, even my other son, who's not his. You know, like, he put him on his health care, and he pays for everything. He's a really good man, you know, and he takes responsibility. Like, with the sudden pregnancy, it was like, he was happy about it and he was scared too, but he was immediately was just like, okay, we're doing this. We're gonna get married. We're gonna make this work.

[Guy Winch]

Is that what you wanted when you became pregnant?

[Jennifer]

When I first found out I was pregnant, I was terrified. And I thought, this can't happen. And I debated having an abortion, even though that's not my.

Preference.

But when I told him and we talked about it, you know, he jumped right away to like, let's get married. And. And we had mentioned marriage before then. So I, you know, I felt excited. I'm always like, scared to, like, really get my hopes too in, but I was definitely excited. Like, oh, this is the family that I've been wanting. We can make this work. It's going to be crazy. But, yeah, I would marry him in a heartbeat is how I felt.

[Laurie Gottlieb]

Can I go back to the pregnancy for a second? You say you unexpectedly got pregnant. Were you both just careless? Was one of you careless? How did that come about?

[Jennifer]

So I had this lapse where I wasn't using any birth control. And then he wasn't being safe. We were just being really careless. He would say, like, romantic things like, oh, if you got pregnant, then I definitely know you were the one. Or, oh, if we got pregnant, we'd have a little girl and we'd name her this. You know, just kind of like daydreamy. Romantic things. My first child happened the same way. Just being careless. It's always been accidental.

[Laurie Gottlieb]

It doesn't sound accidental. It sounds like there was a hope that you couldn't fully voice and so passively you would try to make that desire happen.

[Jennifer]

Yeah.

[Laurie Gottlieb]

At least in this case.

[Jennifer]

Yeah. It could be like, gives a sense of there would be stability. Like, he wouldn't run away. He'd have to stay.

[Laurie Gottlieb]

Although it does sound a little backwards that if you got pregnant, I would know you were the one. What I think most of us hope is that I know you're the one. And then once we establish ourselves as a couple, then we decide to expand into a bigger family. So it's almost like, why would he need this external validation to tell him that you were the one? So to me, actually, to my ears, that didn't sound romantic. To my ears, that sounded like a giant red flag.

[Jennifer]

If I'm honest with myself. All those times where he would kind of say those things, he could be very fickle. Like one day say these romantic things, but then the next day say something that contradicts that.

[Laurie Gottlieb]

Like what?

[Jennifer]

Like, oh, I. I Didn't know if things were going to work out with us. I didn't know that my bachelor days were going to end so soon. I didn't know that I would find you so soon.

[Guy Winch]

Is that basically what his hesitation was, that I just got divorced, I want to have some bachelor days. If I had met you in five years time, I'd be totally ready to settle down again. But I just met you too soon and that's the hesitation. And maybe in fact that would be the sign, in other words, if you got pregnant, it would be the sign that yeah, maybe it's too soon, but no, this is the right one anyway. But the hesitation was constantly about the timing.

[Jennifer]

Yeah, he's expressed very clearly that that period of the bachelorhood was him kind of having like this sigh of relief after a marriage that had been unhappy for many years. And then he had a very tumultuous affair with a co worker, bitter divorce. And he said that those bachelor days were just him feeling free, like he could finally do things on his own, make his own decisions, not have to have so much responsibility running a house. You know, he was just living in an apartment with his kids.

[Guy Winch]

What happened to the woman he had the affair with after he got separated from his wife? Was he with her?

[Jennifer]

No. When his wife discovered the affair, she made him end things with her like on a three way phone call. And when her partner found out about the affair, he very aggressively threatened to call his word. So she quit. So cut off all contact like it was pretty ugly.

[Laurie Gottlieb]

Did he ever talk about what it was like for him to have to grieve both the end of a marriage, even though it sounds like he wanted out of the marriage, but it's still an ending to something. And then also grieve the end of this relationship that probably made him feel seen and alive and all those things that maybe he wasn't feeling in his marriage. Did you guys ever have a conversation about that?

[Jennifer]

Yeah, we did. We talked pretty frankly, I want to say several times. Like around Christmas that first year when he would dig out the decorations and some of them were the decorations that his ex wife had bought. So he would get very emotional and then talk about the pain that he inflicted on his children because they found out about the affair. His wife had told the kids even though they were like 10 and 8. He was married for over 10 years and just felt a lot of guilt around what happened because he did love her in the beginning and they did have a fun relationship just with the stress of kids and their relationship. Just kind of got away from him and he realized he wasn't in love with her.

[Laurie Gottlieb]

You said he felt guilt, so he realized that he had hurt her by having the affair.

[Jennifer (Follow-up Call)]

Yeah.

[Laurie Gottlieb]

Not just his kids, but did he feel guilt around having hurt her?

[Jennifer]

You know, I don't know. I want to say yes, but I'm not. I'm not too sure on that.

[Laurie Gottlieb]

Honestly, I'm asking because it's very clear that he feels this guilt for having hurt his kids. But he doesn't seem to understand, at least based on your letter, that he's hurting you by reaching out on Instagram to these women. And so I think it's important to know how he feels about what happened the first time and whether he realizes that he did hurt his wife by cheating on her instead of addressing the issues directly with her.

[Jennifer (Follow-up Call)]

I don't know.

[Jennifer]

And, you know, the first time that I caught him with the Instagram thing, when I confronted him, there really wasn't a sense of being sorry for me. I think at once he did say, I'm sorry to see you sad. You know, I'm sorry to see that this hurt you.

[Laurie Gottlieb]

It's an apology that doesn't take responsibility. It's like something happened in the world.

[Lori Gottlieb]

That hurt you, as opposed to, I.

[Laurie Gottlieb]

Am sorry that I hurt you.

[Jennifer]

Yeah. In the second time, when it was when he had been messaging with the woman that he had an affair with, I was so angry because there was no sense of responsibility. He just acted like this was just something that happened. I didn't get the sense that he was really sorry on my behalf. You know, like, I don't want to make my life more complicated, so I'm not going to have an affair because I don't want to make my life more complicated.

[Laurie Gottlieb]

Did you ever talk about how he felt about having to end the relationship with the person he was having the affair with?

[Jennifer]

We didn't talk about her. He always described it as like an infatuation. I think he did feel like it gave him the feelings that he was wanting to feel in his life about himself. Like, he said before that his sexuality was a big piece of his identity and there was no romance with his wife. It wasn't until I caught him messaging with her this past summer where he said, I was in with love. Love with her. Before, he always said it was an infatuation. She was like 13 years younger than him, so they had fun. She was very playful. You know, it was very sexually charged relationship. But it wasn't until I caught him this past summer where he said that he had been in love with her. Like, I didn't know that he had been, that he had felt that way towards her. I knew that he felt affectionate towards her and a fondness towards her, but he's also called her dumb, and she's not someone he could ever be with.

[Guy Winch]

But, you know, it's an interesting rationalization when you catch him messaging the woman with whom he had an affair to say, well, but I was in love with her is a very interesting rationalization or explanation to offer in that moment. Because what does that really mean? No, it's okay. Because she wasn't just this thing. I actually had feelings for her. Do you still. In other words, then what is this about? Did you ask that?

[Jennifer]

So apparently he had had her blocked since the affair and all the drama went down. And I guess he had unblocked her that summer. And she's into dressing up in costumes that are sexy and stuff like that. So I think he was watching some of her videos. And so she messaged him, like, hey, I noticed you're viewing me, which means you unblocked me. And so she just asked about his life, and they had a conversation about how their lives are going. And he said that he told her he was very happy. And I had actually messaged her after this, and she said, yeah, he said he was very happy with you, and he loved how his life was going. But in the midst of that, he tells her, you haunt my dreams, you know? And then she said something sexual back, like, I wish I could feel you again. There was like a quick exchange of.

[Guy Winch]

That that you saw or that he told you about?

[Jennifer]

That he told me about. And then she also told me. And then they both mutually agreed that they're not going to pursue this route. It was a quick message exchange that happened over an evening and apparently no more. And the only reason I found out about it is because I had suspicions. And I pressed him one evening and he told me about it. And so now the story goes where he thinks that he came forward to me with this information, but he didn't come forward to me. I pressed it out of him because I had suspicions.

[Laurie Gottlieb]

Why did you have suspicions?

[Jennifer]

Because he started sleeping on the couch. I go to bed early, so he hangs out in the living room, and he'd wind up falling asleep out there. But I started to get suspicious, like, oh, that's happening a lot. And he's always on his phone, and he was very guarded with his phone.

[Guy Winch]

Does he believe there's anything wrong in contacting this woman or other women via Instagram. Does he think that that's wrong, or does he think that that's okay? If he doesn't act on it, then no harm, no foul.

[Jennifer]

I think that he thinks it's not okay because we've talked about it before, and he is definitely not okay with me doing that, aside from the two times that I've discovered, I don't know of him messaging other people.

[Guy Winch]

But you said he gets cagey. Like, why would you be asking me?

[Jennifer]

He gets a little defensive. He gets a little irritated. You know, kind of just like, here we go again with your trust issues.

[Guy Winch]

So these are your issues, because these are trust issues rather than reality issues.

[Jennifer]

I feel like it took him longer than I would have liked for him to take responsibility for talking to the woman that he had an affair with and how it came out. He talked about how them talking again after that tumult was very healing for him because he felt like everybody had been very scarred after that situation, and he felt bad that she had to quit work and they just never talked again. So he said that talking to her again felt almost like a weight had been lifted off of him. To know that she was okay and for her to know that he was okay. I pressed him like, well, why were you looking at her videos anyway? It's like he failed to see that he created the situation by unblocking her, by responding to her, by being the one who initiated the sexual content.

And it's just so confusing because our relationship to me, feels strong and healthy.

[Laurie Gottlieb]

Can you tell us about the strong and healthy parts?

[Jennifer]

Yeah, he's someone that we can sit on the couch and have conversations. We respect each other. We still have a sex life that's fun and great, very attractive to each other still. We're partners. We plan our lives. We do for the kids. We're very invested in our family life and making it a good, wholesome home for these kids and having stability. We have a lot of physical affection towards each other. Hugging a lot, you know, kissing.

[Laurie Gottlieb]

How much do you share your inner life with him?

[Jennifer]

Not that much, honestly.

[Jennifer (Follow-up Call)]

I don't know.

[Jennifer]

I guess I shouldn't say that. We talk a lot about family and feelings that come up, and we can process arguments pretty easily. I don't share with him a lot of.

Like, my psychological stuff. I guess I'm trying to.

Take some computer classes to sharpen my toolbox of skills so I can get out of house cleaning. And he's been a little bit supportive of that, but he doesn't fully take an interest in it. And I've taken a creative writing class. He doesn't ask a lot about that.

[Guy Winch]

I think it's possible that he still doesn't fully understand how it impacts you that he was in touch with that woman he had the affair with. And it's possible he doesn't fully understand because he didn't innately fully understand and that you didn't fully explain it because you're hesitant to talk about your feelings or your psychology, as it were. You're not fully sharing enough with him in order to see whether he can get it.

[Jennifer]

I feel like when a hand opened up, it was probably twinged with my anger about it, which turned him off. You know, none of the kids were home, and we were just yelling at each other. There were moments of like, how much that hurt me.

[Guy Winch]

I don't even mean how much this hurt me, but let me tell you why this hurt me. Because here's my history with relationships and the fears that I carried with me and the feelings that I have and the hesitancies I have. It's really explaining it to him in a way that he grasps, not just saying, I feel blank without context.

[Jennifer]

I see that. Yeah, I haven't really laid it out fully like that.

[Laurie Gottlieb]

One of the things that really strikes me about your description of meeting him was that it sounded like you had been very lonely for the 10 years before you met him. And I think that in some ways you're less lonely being in this family unit, but I think in other ways, you're equally lonely and maybe in a more painful way. And I see that because you've been crying as you've been talking about some of this. And it makes me wonder about something you wrote in your letter, which was at one point, you both said to each other, if it weren't for this baby, we're not sure we would be together. What did you both mean and how did that conversation go between the two of you? How deep was that conversation?

[Jennifer]

He's the one who would say that here and there. Sometimes I'd be like, yeah, you're probably right.

[Laurie Gottlieb]

Did you really feel that when you said, yeah, you're probably right?

[Jennifer]

I honestly think unless he did something.

Major deal breaker, I probably would have stayed with the relationship because I don't expect perfection in people. But it's funny that, because two or three days before I found out about him talking to the affair woman, it had just been a little bit stressful in the house we were trying to remodel the basement, things were tense, our baby was demanding, we were bickering and we were sitting on the couch one day and he was like, I can sense that you're not happy. We're not happy. Do you ever wonder what it would be like to live apart, but to be able to raise our baby as like friends? And at that time I had kind of been feeling fed up with just the stressors of life and longing for part time parenting days, Longing for space, longing for privacy, longing for.

Time with my older son who I feel like I've really kind of lost in the shuffle with the new baby. And so we kind of like fantasized about like, well, how would that look like if we split up and just tried to make a positive co parenting situation and then, you know, we've kind of slept on it and he came back, which is true to him being kind of fickle. Like I don't want that at all. Just the daily comfort of having a presence in the house. Just reflecting on when I was single, how lonely it was when the kids weren't here. Just having your companionship means everything to me and I don't want that. Please, let's work this out. And then, you know, a couple days later is when I found found out about the messaging, which now when I put the pieces together, I'm like, I wonder if he was saying that so it would give him permission to have the affair. You know what I mean?

[Laurie Gottlieb]

The timing does not seem quite.

[Jennifer]

That's like, did you have a chance.

[Guy Winch]

To tell him after you slept on it how you felt about that discussion from the night before? He came and said, no, I don't want that. But where were you and did you voice where you were?

[Jennifer]

I mean, I honestly felt the same way when I really sit and remember what it was like when my older son wasn't there, just how lonely it was in the house. It was just myself, you know, and just having the presence of people.

[Laurie Gottlieb]

Jennifer, I think there's a difference between having the presence of people, meaning their physical presence, they're in the house and having a connection with people.

[Jennifer]

Yeah.

[Laurie Gottlieb]

And I don't know that you have had the connection that you're looking for. I think there have been moments when you might have felt like you had some semblance of it.

But I'm not sure that the two of you have that yet.

[Jennifer]

It's hard to say. I feel like when we hang out I do connect with him. He is open with me about, you know, how he feels about his family and how he Feels about us.

[Laurie Gottlieb]

I don't know that he's open with you about how he feels about the two of you. Or it could be that he's just confused because he gives you a lot of different messages about how he feels about you. And so it could be that he's not being completely open, and so he compensates by kind of flipping back and forth. Or it could be that he truly is just confused and he doesn't have a filter. And so he tells you what he's feeling in the moment without considering how it might land on you and what the effect would be on you of having to hear these very contradictory messages from one night of, hey, you know, I'm thinking maybe we should live apart to, oh, no, I really don't want that. And then almost asking you to stay with him, even though he was the one who proposed the idea.

[Jennifer]

Yeah.

[Guy Winch]

Which is a replication of what happened in that quick breakup that, you know, he did it all by himself. Like, he did the breakup and the comeback by himself. Same thing here. He does the potential theoretical breakup and then coming back by himself. He goes through these movements, but they don't include you.

[Lori Gottlieb]

Yeah.

[Jennifer]

And it's hard, you know, it's only been six months since then. Right now it feels like we're in a great place, you know, and he's very affirming, like, I want you in my life. You're everything to me. You know, you make this household run. You're the one I want to be with. So I feel like it's hard for me to reconcile the past with how I feel right now. And I don't know, going forward.

How much to take into consideration the past. Or should I just keep building on what feels like a good foundation right now?

[Laurie Gottlieb]

Let's talk about something that's happening in the present, which is that I think he had agreed to go to therapy with you. Correct.

[Jennifer]

He hasn't pursued it. And I put myself on a waiting list, but I haven't pursued it in other places. I literally just called one place, put myself on a waiting list. It hasn't come due, and neither of us have pursued it.

[Guy Winch]

Why do you think you're not pursuing it, Jennifer? You're not. Why do you think you're not?

[Jennifer]

That's a good question. I don't know. Part of me is scared to find out if there's anything else that I don't know about. I'm scared to discover another lie, because I feel like if there was another lie, that that would be the deal breaker. And then it's like.

All these kids, like all these kids are involved.

[Laurie Gottlieb]

You keep talking about the kids and I think that prevents you from really looking at how difficult this would be for you.

[Jennifer]

I guess a part of me is scared if his true feelings came out, like, yeah, I love you, but I'm not in love with it. You know what I mean?

[Guy Winch]

I'm also wondering if part of what you're scared about is that you've said that your story is I'm the one that never gets to keep the good guy. And I think that's really led you in this case to under voice how you feel, what your needs are, what you want. You come at things with him as I can't ask for too much, I can't push for too much. If it's very blatant, like you're about to have an affair again, I'll leave. But anything short of that, then I will probably accept it because my story is I don't really get fully what I want. So I can't ask for too much. And I think it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy where you're with someone who maybe can give you what you want, but if you don't ask for it, then you'll never know.

[Jennifer]

Yeah, yeah, that resonates with me. That's definitely some truth in there.

[Laurie Gottlieb]

I think the other truth is that you're worried that a truth will come out from him that will be very devastating to you. But maybe your other fear is that your truth will come out and if you went to therapy, you might get more clear about what you want and whether he is the person that meets those needs.

[Jennifer]

Yeah, that could be. Yeah. I feel so powerless in a way because.

Of my financial situation. I feel like.

If I did uncover that this wasn't something that I ultimately wanted, I'm stuck. You know.

[Guy Winch]

Was that a discussion that you guys had when you decided, okay, there's the baby, I have to quit my job. But if I do that, then I become very financially dependent and that scares me. What's something we can do? What's an arrangement we can make? Did you have any of that discussion with him?

[Jennifer]

Yeah, he said he would upfront give me like $10,000 and help me get started if you break up. If we went, yeah, and he's even talked about I would buy a condo that you could live in and you could pay rent to me.

[Laurie Gottlieb]

So why are you screwed if he would take care of that?

[Jennifer]

Right now I'm only working part time. My older son has gained a quality of life that I feel like, I don't know that I could give him.

[Guy Winch]

But you also mentioned that you feel that your older son got lost in the shuffle with you a little bit. So he might get a quality of life and stuff, but he might have lost a little bit of mom, is what you're saying.

[Jennifer]

Also, I feel that way. I don't know that my son feels that way. It's hard to tell because he's 14. You know, it's. He's talkative one day, and then the next day he's like, I don't want anything to do with you. I feel like he's had a good foundation, good great childhood that I was able to provide for him.

[Laurie Gottlieb]

You gave him that.

[Jennifer]

Yeah. And, you know, his father is a good person. He's got a lot of problems, but our extended family is really involved and, you know, sent him to a great school. He has lasting friendships and great experiences there.

[Guy Winch]

Good. But then, Jennifer, you know, you are not, like, screwed in the sense of, I truly don't have an option because I cannot support myself and my son. There's extended family support. You're not completely unable to do that.

[Jennifer]

Yeah, yeah, that's true.

[Laurie Gottlieb]

I actually think that the one way that you are trapped is emotionally. Yeah. That it's not logistically, that you are very trapped emotionally. Your old story keeps getting in the way. Part of you says, wait, let me hold on to my lifeline here. This is the only relationship I've had that has worked in any way, shape, or form, even if it's not ideal.

And I'm not going to do anything to jeopardize that. So you have these two competing parts of you. The one that says, my soul can't take this, and the part that says, but I also can't live without this.

[Jennifer]

Yeah, that's true. And I don't know which one. In light of taking responsibility for your choices and, you know, putting aside yourself for the sake of family, his daughter in particular, I mean, the whole thing has just been one big ball of suffering for her, and she's just finally gained some stability.

And it's like if for some reason in the next year, the rug gets pulled out again.

[Laurie Gottlieb]

Hey, Jennifer. Who pulled the rug out from under her by having the affair?

[Jennifer]

Yeah.

Her father. But I wouldn't want that to fly further damage her relationship to him, you know?

[Laurie Gottlieb]

But he made a choice, and there are consequences to that choice. And you're trying to protect him from the consequences of his choice without protecting yourself.

[Jennifer]

Yeah.

[Laurie Gottlieb]

And you're also not protecting the relationship. You're leaving the relationship in a very precarious place.

It's dangerous to do what you're doing because you're leaving the relationship very vulnerable to self destruction.

[Guy Winch]

For two reasons, Jennifer. Number one, because when you have worries and fears and doubts that you don't want to go to therapy to get in touch with, it means that they're there in your head, they're going to get activated and strongly. But the other thing is, it's okay to say a factor in my decision is also going to be not just my children, but his. Because I do feel a certain obligation towards the daughter. It's okay to say that as long as you also say, but what is going to be in the equation very strongly is what my needs are and what my feelings are. My concern is that you are thinking about the daughter before you even get to think about yourself in some way.

[Jennifer]

Yeah, that's probably true. I feel like responsible and guilty at the same time because we're the ones who messed up by getting pregnant accidentally.

[Laurie Gottlieb]

Take away that word, accidentally. We're the ones who decided to get pregnant without thinking about it. It wasn't accidental. The more you can tell the truth about the two of you and your story, the more you'll be able to tell the truth about the two of you and your story going forward. So the true story is I was very seduced by this idea of having a baby with him. He kept putting that idea in my head and I was seduced by it. And we both, as responsible adults, didn't act responsibly. We made a decision. We didn't voice that decision explicitly, but we made a decision that we were going to have sex without birth control, knowing that we could have a baby together. It's not rocket science.

[Jennifer]

It's not.

Yeah, it's, you know, I guess another part is like if I learn my true feelings, then I'd actually have to plan my life forward. And my life has always happened to me. I've never really designed my life, so to speak.

[Laurie Gottlieb]

I would have to drive the car instead of just being driven wherever somebody wants to take me or wherever life takes me.

[Guy Winch]

Is that not an appealing idea of you driving the car yourself rather than having to be taken to where the driver wants to take you?

[Jennifer]

Yeah, no, it is.

[Guy Winch]

It's definitely now it's a scary position for you because, oh, it's my car, I have to drive it and I have to then be responsible for the decisions rather than deal with what quote unquote happens. I understand it can be scary. But I want you to really think a lot about this idea of the liberation of it. The potential security you can find in it.

[Jennifer]

Sir. Lot to face. But I want to. I want. Before we start planning a wedding, I want to.

Find that out for myself.

[Laurie Gottlieb]

Can you tell us a little bit about what things were like for you growing up? I'm just curious where this story came from.

[Jennifer]

Yeah, my parents are. They're still married. All my neighbors were church friends. A lot of playing outside, kids over all the time. I would say it's really happy childhood. And then my teenage years we moved. And my teenage years just felt like the family just splintered apart. Like everybody was kind of in their own rooms. There wasn't a lot of involvement on my parents part. In my early 20s I learned that my dad had an affair. It was probably around the time when we moved. So I don't think my mom has fully gotten over that. She's just depressed.

[Laurie Gottlieb]

Who told you about the affair? You said you didn't find out until you were in your 20s.

[Jennifer]

Yeah, my mom just blurted it out one night. It was on the eve of my older sister getting married and my younger sister and my parents and I were sitting at the table after a rehearsal dinner late at night. And I don't even remember how it came up, but she got real angry and she grabbed the knife and she said, why don't you tell them about the affair? And so my dad like confessed this affair that happened when we were children. I don't know. I just always felt like she uses that to like blame him for her unhappiness. Even though they don't talk about it and their life is fine.

[Laurie Gottlieb]

It must have been a big deal though because you moved. Yeah. It sounds like the family had a very integrated experience in that community. And then all of a sudden the whole family moved. And you guys didn't really know why, but what were you told at the time since you didn't know that that was the reason?

[Jennifer]

It was always just painted like, mom's not happy. She wants to live in a newer house. After we knew about the affair, mom said, yeah, I had to get out of that neighborhood. I just needed to have a new start. And it kind of felt like it was my older sister and my mom on one side and me and my dad and my younger sister on another side. Like we were the more free spirited ones and they were the judging kind of not okay with that.

[Guy Winch]

You might have been on Team dad when you were a kid, but right now you're replicating your mom's footsteps in the sense that there was an affair, she stayed. She wasn't happy. It's unclear to me that your parents ever did the work to fully repair.

[Jennifer]

I don't think so.

[Guy Winch]

And here you are. So you are forewarned by your mom's experience that you have to do the work to repair. Otherwise you might end up like Imam, being sad in your room, feeling lonely, even though there are people around.

[Jennifer]

That's a great point.

[Lori Gottlieb]

Yeah.

[Jennifer]

And I can see that.

[Laurie Gottlieb]

And I keep thinking about your story, about how, here we go again. No man is going to want to stay with me. And I think that when you grow up in a house where there was an unresolved affair, and what I mean by unresolved is it sounds like it didn't really repair it. And so it still lives very much in the space between them. And you feel that in a household you might not know what it was. You didn't find out till later, but even now, as an adult, you found out 20 years ago. It still lives in your family.

[Jennifer]

It does. Because I feel like my mom holds back, loving my dad.

[Laurie Gottlieb]

It hasn't been repaired. You can't have empathy for her in some way because it's so scary to go there. Because I think you see yourself in her a little bit.

[Jennifer]

Yeah, you're right. I think that's probably right.

[Laurie Gottlieb]

Just because your parents didn't repair what they needed to repair and their story is kind of stagnant, I wonder if you can move to a different place and create a wholly original story that reflects more of the truth of who you are and your experience. Like the story of I can't leave because I wouldn't be able to raise my son. Well, you raised him quite well under the circumstances.

[Jennifer]

Yeah.

[Laurie Gottlieb]

And then I imagine the kids in the household, you're so concerned about their wellbeing. And I imagine the kids in the household living the way you guys did, which was when you moved as teenagers. You said things shifted. The household felt totally different. And I think that the kids in this household will sense it, too, that there is something between the two of you. Even if you try to put on a good front, they're going to sense it.

[Jennifer]

Yeah.

[Laurie Gottlieb]

And that's why I think not going to therapy and not dealing with this, not finding out who the two of you are in relation to both each other and yourselves, is dangerous, not only for the two of you, but for the whole family.

[Jennifer]

You're absolutely right. Yeah. You're absolutely right. That's all it was for me. It was like I knew mom and dad weren't happy. No one was saying anything. But.

Physical expressions say everything, you know.

[Guy Winch]

Right?

[Jennifer]

Yeah.

[Guy Winch]

And you might even be able to model something for your mom about speaking up more about asking for things. But for you to really take over the driving and make sure that you steer the relationship to either a place that is good for all or not.

[Laurie Gottlieb]

I just want to check in with you. You were crying a lot during the session. And when we started talking about this idea that maybe your story needs a revision, that maybe it's not so accurate, that maybe you're replaying something that really isn't yours, you started smiling, you started sitting up in your chair. Your whole demeanor changed. And so I just wanted to hear how you're feeling about where we are in the conversation right now.

[Jennifer]

I feel like I know what I need to do, even though I do sense myself like, no, don't look at that too much. There is an acknowledgement more that I have some needs that are not being met and I don't know if they can be met.

But.

I feel more of a clarity about.

The story that I tell myself and a self fulfilling prophecy. I feel some hope.

[Sponsor/Ad Voice]

I've been.

[Jennifer]

Trying to deny this sense of unrest in the relationship. I've been trying to talk it away and rationalize it. And it feels good to.

Know that I have to look at it and have to look at it with him.

So I feel.

Pretty positive, even though it's terrifying in a way.

[Guy Winch]

So, Jennifer, we have some advice for you.

[Laurie Gottlieb]

Okay.

[Guy Winch]

We were thinking about your story and your story being the one you tell yourself. And we want you to write your story differently. Specifically, we want you to go through all the major moments in your life that happened, especially with relationships, and describe them in a very active, as opposed to a passive voice. So you didn't get pregnant by accident. You chose not to took birth control would be the active voice. You didn't just settle for Dan. You were lonely and you chose to be with him because you thought you would be less lonely. You did a great job with your son because you put him in a great school. You allowed him to have a lot of friends and a very big support system. And he sounds like he's really thriving. You decided to take classes and started taking computer classes, creative writing for both personal and professional enrichment. So everything that you talk about is your choice. You own the responsibility and it's a very active voice. And we want you to literally write it as an essay. This is your story.

[Jennifer]

Okay?

[Guy Winch]

Right. Every time you write something, go back and make sure it's fully in the active voice.

[Jennifer]

Okay, Sounds great.

[Laurie Gottlieb]

And I think that a part of you hasn't felt like you could have your driver's license. So it's time to get your driver's license. And then, as a newly licensed driver who has that freedom and that independence, we would like you to make sure that you are guided by your internal GPS in terms of wherever you go. That means that you've said very clearly what your soul can and can't handle. And we think you should drive yourself to therapy with Dan because we think that in this new story, you can handle your truth and you can handle his truth. And I think that when you go back and revise your old story, you'll see that you handled a lot. It might have been painful, it might have been difficult, but you did handle it. And we think you would handle it much more smoothly now because you have a driver's license.

[Jennifer]

I like that. It's a good analogy.

[Laurie Gottlieb]

And we think that knowing his truth and knowing your truth and being able to talk about it openly will lead you to the destination that you want to go to. And that might be a destination where you create a really strong marriage with Dan. It might be a destination that looks different from that, but it will be a better destination than the kind of way station you're stuck in right now.

[Jennifer]

Right. I like that. Yeah, that sounds good. I'm looking forward to doing that, actually.

[Guy Winch]

Good. Well, here's one more thing. Given Dan has been defensive about the therapy, we would like you to present it to him in the following way. Look, I was thinking about my parents, and I was thinking how they never really fully dealt with the trust issue and how, because they never did, it hovered between them for 40 years. And I don't want that for us. I want us to deal with it so we can move past it. That's the goal of doing therapy, to be able to deal. And if we don't talk about it with someone, it'll hover, and that won't be good for the relationship or for either of us. And that's not something I want. So I'm going to make an appointment for therapy, and I'd like us to go.

[Laurie Gottlieb]

Okay.

[Guy Winch]

And talk.

[Jennifer]

That's a very conscious way of saying it. Yeah, I like that.

[Laurie Gottlieb]

I just want to address the kids piece, too, because I know you're both very concerned about the kids. And I want to assure you that kids do best when there's not some secret hovering in the household. You know that from personal experience. And I think that you're so worried that if you go to therapy, it will hurt the kids, and if you go to therapy, it will help the kids.

[Jennifer]

Okay. That feels good to have that affirmed. Yeah.

[Laurie Gottlieb]

And just having tension between the parents, you may think you're doing a good job of covering that. Kids are very perceptive.

[Jennifer]

That's true.

[Guy Winch]

Teenagers especially.

[Laurie Gottlieb]

Yeah.

[Jennifer]

Thank you. I really appreciate this session.

[Lori Gottlieb]

You're very welcome.

[Laurie Gottlieb]

And let us know how it goes.

[Jennifer]

Will do.

[Guy Winch]

This exercise of rewrite your story is a powerful exercise that really changes how you see yourself and how you see your history when you revise it to focus on the action, on the choices, on the agency, as opposed to the passivity. And I'm hoping it has that impact.

[Laurie Gottlieb]

And I think that sometimes the reason that people are afraid to see themselves as the protagonist in their story is because of the subplot in the story, which is, I don't trust myself. Nobody loves me. I'm not good enough. And so once you start to rewrite the entirety of the story, you start to see, wait a minute. I am the protagonist, and I am very capable and competent, and I get to make different choices.

[Guy Winch]

This time, the example of I chose to not use birth control. I didn't just accidentally get pregnant is a great example how you're talking about the same event. You're saying it in a realistic way. You can't rewrite your story in a fake way. It has to sound true to your own ears. And I chose not to use birth control is true and will sound true to her and is very different than I accidentally got pregnant. So it's a great example of that pivot. It's very different messaging about who you are and how you function.

[Lori Gottlieb]

Yeah.

[Laurie Gottlieb]

And I would say the last thing is that she wants honesty from Dan. But I think first she's going to need to be honest with herself, and she's rewriting her story without judgment. There's no shame here. It's. I made some decisions. Some of them were really good decisions. Some of them were decisions I might make differently, but they were mine. And I'm going to be more intentional.

[Lori Gottlieb]

About the decisions that I make now.

[Laurie Gottlieb]

That I have my driver's license. So I'm really excited to see how she rewrites this story and what that.

[Lori Gottlieb]

Does for her in terms of reframing.

[Laurie Gottlieb]

What she wants to do, do in this moment.

[Lori Gottlieb]

You're listening to dear therapists from iHeartradio. We'll be back after a short break.

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[Lori Gottlieb]

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[Lori Gottlieb]

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[Lori Gottlieb]

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[Julia Louis Dreyfus]

Well, hi everybody, it's Julia Louis Dreyfus from the Wiser Than Me podcast. And I'm not going to talk about food waste this time. I'm going to talk about food resources. All that uneaten food rotting in the landfill. It could be enriching our soil or feeding our chickens because it's still food. And the easiest and frankly way coolest way to put all its nutrients to work is with the Mill Food recycler. It looks like an art house garbage can. You can just toss your scraps in it like a garbage can. But. But it is definitely not a garbage can. I mean, it's true I'm pretty obsessed with this thing. I even invested in this thing. But I'm not alone. Any mill owner just might corner you at a party and rhapsodize about how it's completely odorless and it's fully automated and how you can keep filling it for weeks. But the clincher is that you can depend on it for years. Mill is a serious machine. Think about a dishwasher, not a toaster. It's built by hand in North America and it's engineered by the guy who did your iPhone. But you have to kind of live with Mill to understand all the love. That's why they offer a risk free trial. Go to mill.com wiser for an exclusive offer.

[Guy Winch]

So we heard back from Jennifer. We sent her to remind you to driving school. Let's see what she picked up.

[Jennifer (Follow-up Call)]

Hi Lori and Guy. I'm calling to give you an update on the homework that you gave me. I had the therapy talk with my fiance and it went really well. I used your advice on framing it in the context of my parents unresolved issues and how I didn't want distrust and resentment to build over the years. And he was very open to going to therapy and actually seemed like it's something he really wanted to do.

[Jennifer]

He thought it was a good idea.

[Jennifer (Follow-up Call)]

That we do that before we get married. And we agreed to talk about everything that's happened over the past year with the indiscretions on Instagram and the situation of adjusting to the household with the kids and the time where we had talked about living separately.

[Jennifer]

So I'm excited about that. As far as the other part of.

[Jennifer (Follow-up Call)]

The homework goes with the writing assignment where I write in the active. I actually found it very empowering, especially it kind of gave me a sense of security knowing that I have such decision making power in my own life. Silly as that sounds. But it did bring up some shame for me. I had this sense of why didn't I think of this sooner and how different could crossroads of my life been had I been more decisive and not just sort of went with the flow or deferred to others around me as far as how to make my decisions. I wound up thinking of my mom while I was writing it and looking back on my life and how I wished that she had used more of her voice with me, shared her guidance.

[Jennifer]

I feel like I was a little.

[Jennifer (Follow-up Call)]

Bit left to the wind in my teenage years by my parents. Feel like they both kind of disappeared in a way. So I've decided to go to individual therapy as well to deal with these unresolved issues. I'm looking forward to the therapy with my fiance. I'm scared of what might come up, mainly if there has been another indiscretion. But the good thing is that I'm wanting to face the truth whatever way it is, and I feel ready to be more in the driver's seat in my life. So I just want to really thank you guys.

[Jennifer]

I really appreciate it.

[Jennifer (Follow-up Call)]

It's helped me so much. So thank you.

[Guy Winch]

I think the theme here is that it's not what you say, it's how you say and it's how you convey sentiments to your partner when you're trying to say something difficult. And it's how you frame things in your own mind when you're telling yourself your own story. And changing that language can make a huge difference.

[Laurie Gottlieb]

So many times people say, well I can't get my partner to go do therapy with me. And a lot of it has to do with how they're presenting it and what the purpose of it is. And I think really making it personal about listen, I saw this firsthand with my parents when they didn't resolve this. And I care too much about us to have that happen to us.

[Lori Gottlieb]

He really responded to that.

[Laurie Gottlieb]

And I think that going forward she.

[Lori Gottlieb]

Going to be much more aware that she doesn't have to just let life happen to her, that she gets to choose which direction she wants to go in. And I think that that will bode well, both for her individually and for.

[Laurie Gottlieb]

Her in the marriage, being in the.

[Guy Winch]

Driver'S seat always feels better.

[Lori Gottlieb]

Hey, fellow travelers, if you're enjoying our podcast each week, don't forget to subscribe for free so that you don't miss any episodes. And please help support Dear Therapists by telling your friends about it and leaving a review on Apple Podcasts. Your reviews really help people to find the show. You can also find us both online. I'm aurigotlib.com and you can follow me on Twitter ortlieb1 or on Instagram lorigotlibauthor.

[Guy Winch]

And I'[e-mail] and on Twitter and Instagram Guy. If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us, big or small, email [e-mail] our executive producer is Noel Brown.

[Lori Gottlieb]

We're produced and edited by Mike Johns, Josh Fisher and Chris Childs. Our interns are Dora Corwin and Silver Lifton. Special thanks to Alison Wright and to our podcast fairy godmother Katie Couric.

[Guy Winch]

Next week, a man straight struggles with guilt over how much he should take care of his aging parents despite their abuse. Growing up, he called us names. He told us we were worthless. You know, like physical abuse, like, spitting in my face, like, and he's just like, I don't remember that. I was just like, okay, well, I don't even need to try anymore because you're going to continue with this behavior and I just don't, I don't want to be part of that.

[Lori Gottlieb]

We can't wait to see you at next week's session.

[Guy Winch]

Dear Therapists, Z a production of iHeartradio.

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Are you looking for ways to make your everyday life happier, healthier, more productive and more creative? I'm Gretchen Rubin, the number one best selling author of the Happiness Project, bringing you fresh insights and practical solutions in the Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast. My co host and happiness guinea pig is my sister, Elizabeth Craft.

[Jennifer]

That's me, Elizabeth Craft, a TV writer.

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And producer in Hollywood.

[Laurie Gottlieb]

Hollywood.

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Join us as we explore ideas and hacks about cultivating happiness and good habits. Check out Happier with Gretchen Rubin from Lemonada Media.