How Do You Handle a Conversational One-Upper? Plus: Elizabeth Gilbert Has a Question!

Summary

Podcast Summary: "How Do You Handle a Conversational One-Upper? Plus: Elizabeth Gilbert Has a Question!"

Since You Asked with Lori Gottlieb and Gretchen Rubin
Date: October 28, 2025
Host: Lemonada Media

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Overview

In this rich and relatable episode, Lori Gottlieb and Gretchen Rubin field listener updates and common dilemmas around connection, communication, and boundaries—just in time for the busy holiday season. The episode tackles topics like feeling left out in family gift-giving, the joys and annoyances of frequent texts, how to handle a “conversational one-upper,” and ends with special guest Elizabeth Gilbert asking the pair for advice on managing anxiety about decisions made by loved ones.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Listener Updates: Family Secrets and Post-Wedding Blues

• Update #1: Sister’s dilemma on revealing egg donor conception to her niece (03:12).
  • The update underscores the complexity of family secrets and the importance of seeking support, especially through therapy.
  • Gretchen: "It's a great idea for the sister to see a therapist to clarify her feelings and get support in making this big step to share that truth." (04:01)
• Update #2: Thessaly’s “post-wedding depression” (04:21).
  • Thessaly credits open communication with her husband as vital to their transition, recognizing her need for space and how it isn’t a reflection on him.
  • Lori: "She was very clear that this is something I'm experiencing and I'm asking for your support, not you are the problem..." (08:12)

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2. Holiday Dilemma: Left Out of Family Gift-Giving (09:59)

A listener, Leanne, feels excluded from her nieces’ lives because her brother discourages gift-giving in favor of impersonal book vouchers.

Main Insights:

• Gifts as Connection:
  • Lori frames the dilemma as being less about presents and more about yearning for closeness:
    "Giving a gift is as much for the giver as it is for the receiver...what she's seeking is for the nieces to think... fondly of the aunt and keep her in mind." (10:31)
• Family Values Differ:
  • Gretchen: "Some people just don't want things...It may be that he's not being deliberately thoughtless; it's just not what they value as a family." (11:08)
• Love Languages Matter:
  • Discussion of "The Five Love Languages" (12:45) and their role in mismatched expectations.
• Practical Connection Tips:
  • Gretchen suggests finding a collection (e.g., ornaments) or communicating directly with the nieces via tech (15:45).
  • Lori: "Just ask the kids yourself if you want to have a closer relationship..." (15:58)

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3. Poll: Are Midday Texts Annoying or Connecting? (16:42)

Perspectives Shared:

• Gretchen enjoys frequent 1-on-1 or small group texts (17:21).
• Lori finds frequent texts distracting during the day, unless it's from her son (19:20).
• Listener Poll Result:
  • 88% enjoy frequent texts, 12% find them annoying
• Notable Quotes:
  • "I like a free, no pressure brain exchange." – Amy (18:43)
  • "Texting isn't connection, it's clutter." – Kim (21:53)
• Tips:
  • Use delayed send, mute notifications, and check texts during set times (20:03).

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4. Main Dilemma: The Conversational One-Upper (26:34)

Listener's Problem:

A listener feels diminished by a friend who constantly “one-ups” any story or achievement.

Hosts’ Advice:

• Origin of One-Upping:
  • Lori: "Usually it comes from a place of insecurity...it's probably related to feeling ignored or dismissed...she doesn't realize she's doing this." (27:33)
• Strategies to Cope:
  • Set Boundaries in Real Time:
    • Lori: "You can say, ‘Right now we're talking about me, and then I want to hear about you.’" (28:15)
  • Use Humor to Diffuse:
    • Gretchen suggests gently raising the issue with humor, if possible: "Sometimes if you can achieve that light tone, it can make it much easier..." (28:37)
  • Address Directly with Compassion:
    • Lori: "You can just say, hey, I notice that when I'm telling you something about myself, I get interrupted... I'm sure you don't mean it." (29:13)
  • Ignore the Topping ("Extinguishing the Behavior"):
    • Try continuing your story without reacting to the one-upping to see if it extinguishes the behavior (30:23).
• Deciding the Friendship's Value:
  • Gretchen: "This is the friend we got. Is the good stuff worth it in terms of what we're getting with the friendship?" (31:05)
  • Lori: "Please don’t ghost your friend without saying what the issue is. It’s really respectful to be able to say to somebody, here’s what the issue is." (31:31)

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5. Special Segment: Elizabeth Gilbert Asks for Advice (36:14)

Elizabeth Gilbert’s Question (Writer of Eat, Pray, Love):

"How do you guys handle the anxiety of worrying about friends or family members who are acting out or behaving in ways that seem dangerous or self-defeating? Asking for a codependent friend..." (36:14)

Hosts’ Response:

• Letting Go of Control:
  • Lori: "We can get overly invested and have this illusion of control over what our friends do. Sometimes it's helpful to step back...you can share your thoughts, not by saying, 'Hey, you're making a huge mistake,' but just to observe..." (37:47)
• A Stumble May Prevent a Fall:
  • Gretchen: "Sometimes when people make a mistake, it's actually a mistake that will save them from making a much bigger mistake later..." (37:47)
• Help-Rejecting Complainers:
  • Some people don’t want solutions, just validation for their woes. Gretchen: "If you offer any advice, they reject it. But if you just say, 'Well, what are you planning to do?' it ends that." (40:33)
• Practical Tips:
  • Schedule time to worry to avoid being consumed by anxiety (41:31).
  • Lori: "You can care about a friend, but you don't need to take over their anxiety." (42:12)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Vulnerability in Marriage:
  • Thessaly: "He lets me go to sleep first and then waits 20 to 30 minutes for me to fall asleep before quietly coming into the room to go to bed." (05:10-05:20)
• On Navigating Differences in Family Traditions:
  • Gretchen: "Maybe you could find something like that [a collection], where it would satisfy your desire to give that special gift and would be exciting for the girls to collect..." (15:45)
• On Feedback with Friends:
  • Gretchen: "The true way to care for people is to give them constructive criticism." referencing Kim Scott’s "Radical Candor" (32:48)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• Listener Update on Family Secret: 03:12 – 04:01
• Listener Update on Marriage Transition: 04:21 – 08:12
• Holiday Gift-Giving Dilemma: 09:59 – 16:24
• Texting Poll & Discussion: 16:42 – 22:32
• Conversational One-Upper Dilemma: 26:34 – 33:21
• Elizabeth Gilbert’s Question & Discussion: 36:14 – 42:44

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Overall Tone & Takeaways

In true "Since You Asked" style, Lori and Gretchen blend lightness, warmth, and practical wisdom—never shying from honesty, but always centering kindness and clarity in difficult conversations. They encourage listeners to find what’s really at the core of their dilemmas, communicate directly (but gently), and remember that everyone has a different way of giving and receiving love.

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Next Week's Question Teaser

A listener struggles with an overly-sensitive niece who tends to cry and dominate family gatherings—questioning how best to manage emotional outbursts without derailing celebrations. Listeners are invited to weigh in for next week's show.

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Episode Purpose:
To validate and explore everyday emotional challenges, helping listeners nurture more thoughtful connections—with family, friends, and themselves—through candid dialogue, empathy, and actionable advice.

Transcript

[Gretchen Rubin]

There is one thing that every person on Earth has in common. We all move through the world in a human body.

[Lori Gottlieb]

Our bodies ache. They bleed, they desire. They hold the stories of our lives.

[Gretchen Rubin]

International Planned Parenthood Federation, or ippf, is sharing some of those stories from around the world.

[Lori Gottlieb]

Read them [e-mail] everybody.

[Dr. Elizabeth Poynter]

Welcome to Decoding Women's Health. I'm Dr. Elizabeth Poynter, chair of Women's Health and Gynecology at the Atria Health Institute in New York City. I'll be talking to top researchers and clinicians and bringing vital information about midlife women's health directly to you.

[Gretchen Rubin]

100% of women go through menopause.

[Lori Gottlieb]

Even if it's natural, why should we suffer through it?

[Dr. Elizabeth Poynter]

Listen to Decoding Women's Health with Dr. Elizabeth Poynter wherever you get your podcasts.

[Lori Gottlieb]

Lemonader.

[Gretchen Rubin]

We have a question from the writer Elizabeth Gilbert.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

How do you guys handle the anxiety of worrying about friends or family members who are doing things that you wish they weren't doing and that cause you to kind of obsess about their lives? Asking for a codependent friend?

[Lori Gottlieb]

Well, I think we all know that asking for a friend is never asking for a friend. Hey Gretchen.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Hey Lori. And if you are new to the sense you asked podcast and new to us, I'm Gretchen Rubin, a writer who studies happiness, good habits and human nature. For instance, I wrote the Happiness Project.

[Lori Gottlieb]

And I'm Lori Gottlieb. I'm a psychotherapist and I am the author of maybe youe Should Talk to Someone. And I write the Ask the Therapist column for the New York Times.

[Gretchen Rubin]

And hey Sensuous, we love the questions you have all been sending in. And here's what we'll be talking about today. We've got an issue around family holiday gift giving. Whether you enjoy or are annoyed by friends or family texting you throughout the day. What to do about a friend who's always one upping you in conversations and and we'll hear from our friend, the writer Elizabeth Gilbert about a dilemma she wants our advice on. But first, do you need help navigating the upcoming holidays? If you have a holiday dilemma, it could be family stress, experiencing a loss, hosting decisions. Send us your questions and we will dive in.

[Lori Gottlieb]

And before we get into our first question, we have an update. It's from our listener from episode four and she was concerned that her sister hadn't told her 14 year old niece that she was conceived using an egg donor. So we talked about how important it is not to hold family secrets and we offered advice on how to open up the conversation. And then last week we heard from our listener Adam, who offered his perspective as someone who had this very same secret kept from him and he didn't find out until he was in his 20s. And that was such a helpful perspective. If you need a reminder, go back and listen to episodes three and four and now here's the update from the sister who wrote in.

[Gretchen Rubin]

She wrote, I've listened to the response to my question of whether to tell a teenager she was conceived from a donor egg. I agree completely with the advice. The response brought up some interesting questions such as who is the secret meant to protect? And to question the assumption that the news will be, quote, devastating as opposed to being a relief. I think a main reason that the secret has gone on so long is fear and shame on my sister's part. I'm going to suggest to her that she work through these feelings with a therapist so she can feel strong enough to tell the truth. So for now the truth has not been revealed, but I will let you know Any updates. Thank you so much for diving into this complicated situation. So it's a great idea for the sister to see a therapist to clarify her feelings and get support in making this big step to share that truth.

[Lori Gottlieb]

And I hope that she and her husband can navigate this together with the help of the therapist. So it sounds like the sister is very supportive and I hope that this husband and wife take the sister's advice.

[Gretchen Rubin]

And we love getting updates. Thanks so much for giving us an update to that question. And we got another update from Thessaly who asked last week about feeling sad after getting married.

[Lori Gottlieb]

She said, oh my goodness. Thank you all so much for your time and energy spent on answering my very vulnerable and hard to admit question. I appreciate the advice given by Lori and Gretchen and absolutely value the thoughtfulness in their response. Here is a little life Update Good news When I asked my question I was asking for others experiences and going through the early days of being married. I felt as if I had post wedding depression and had sadness about living with my husband all the time and sharing a small home together. We did not live together prior to being married and the longest time spent together without space was five days on a trip to run the Berlin Marathon and the Tokyo Marathon. In both of those experiences I got sad too. So so clearly this is a me problem. We've been married now for about seven weeks. Thankfully my husband is truly the most perfectly patient person for me and does everything he can to make sure we are happy in our marriage. He is great about helping to keep the house clean and doing what he can do to make sure that I can sleep, both things that really worried me and gave me anxiety. For example, he cleans the bathroom, takes out the trash, and folds the laundry when I don't get to it first. Most importantly and selflessly, he lets me go to sleep first and then waits 20 to 30 minutes for me to fall asleep before quietly coming into the room to go to bed. Your advice was fantastic. First, the advice given to reassure him and openly express my feelings about my sadness has been the key throughout our relationship. I've tended to be the one to bring up and dive deeper into tough topics and less than happy feelings or emotions we are experiencing. When I initially asked him after our first few days being married if he was sad or had worries about being married, he always responded that he felt so lucky to be married and so happy. When I told him openly and kindly that I was feeling sad and feeling this odd depression, he comforted me and asked me how he could help me. I expressed with extra reassurance that my sadness wasn't a reflection on him or my love for him and that he was doing everything right. All totally true statements. I continue to express that he is the most perfect husband and I see the efforts he makes daily to make our marriage as happy as it can be. So second, your advice to try to understand what might be causing my sadness was critical to finding a solution. We have both never been married before and both are used to having alone time and space. When I reflected on our first couple of months of dating, I was reminded of a tough conversation I brought up back then and it clicked that I was fearful of never having space again. When we first started dating, he wanted to spend all of his time with me. We went on walks every weekend, talked every night on the phone, and had Friday and Saturday night dates, et cetera. In addition to our free time being spent together, we also worked for the same company in the same building. One night I had to bring it to his attention as gently as possible because we are both sensitive that I was feeling smothered and that I would run away if I felt like I didn't have any space or time to myself. He took that in stride then and now that we are married and a similar conversation has occurred, he makes it a point to give me time alone so that I can breathe. Finally, the advice to have fun is always spot on. We have such an incredible dynamic and freedom to authentically be ourselves, which for me means being super silly and childlike. To be goofy, silly and authentic in a safe space and know that I won't be judged for it is amazing. For this I am so incredibly grateful and I know that he is too. As a hopeful note, to anyone who might be experiencing any similar post wedding depression transition, know that it does get better. And being a hundred percent open and honest with your partner helps make the first few weeks of marriage feel more like the gift that it's meant to be. Thank you. Well, this was a very interesting update.

[Gretchen Rubin]

I think it's a great reminder to identify the problem because saying oh, I'm having post wedding depression, that could cover a lot of different things where it's very specific and upon reflection it seemed much clearer what was actually going on and that suggested the solution.

[Lori Gottlieb]

It did. And I think the fact that they have this great communication and sometimes I think people are afraid to say what's really on their mind. But she was very clear that this is something I'm experiencing and I'm asking for your support, not you are the problem was I think very helpful for the two of them.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yes, yes. Thank you for that detailed update. Two great updates and now we're going to dive into a new question. This is the carryover question that we raised last week so you could all be thinking of your own advice, what you would give. Last week we gave you this question to think about from Leanne. So Leanne, since you asked, here is your question. I'm a 45 year old woman in England. My younger brother is 40 and is married with two girls age 10 and 7. They live a four hour drive away and neither my partner or I can drive so we see them only once or twice a year. I would like to deepen my relationship to the children but my brother doesn't even communicate what gifts to buy despite me asking and texting reminders prior to Christmas and birthdays. When I have sent gifts they don't confirm they have arrived and don't facetime me to see them being opened. They say that children have too much and just to get book vouchers, which I have done, but to me this lacks the personal touch and I don't get the joy of seeing them unwrap a gift they really wanted. I find this thoughtless on my brother's part but don't want to fall out over it. How can I get my brother to stop his wife's family who live near to them from monopolizing all the gifts by letting me get one special item for each child and being considerate enough to tell me ahead of time so I can shop and get it there on time and actually get to enjoy my Christmas. So this is tricky.

[Lori Gottlieb]

What I think is so interesting about this letter is that. And I think we're going to get a lot of letters about holiday gift giving in the next few weeks. It's important to understand what do the gifts represent. And I think in this case, I think what she wants is to have a closer relationship. I think she's feeling a little bit left out from the family dynamic.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yes, gifts are an important way to show our love. They can deepen relationships. And you get that special thing and you remember who gave it to you. And that can be a very meaningful way to connect with your family.

[Lori Gottlieb]

And I think her letter speaks to the fact that we get joy from giving and from making other people happy. So giving a gift sometimes is as much for the giver as it is for the receiver. And again, sometimes it's a way to bond. And I think that what she's seeking is for the nieces to think when she sees that gift that came from my aunt, they'll think fondly of the aunt and keep her in mind. Cause she is farther away from the other side of the family. So there's that yearning that she has. And I don't know that it's so much about the gifts.

[Gretchen Rubin]

It's about.

[Lori Gottlieb]

And maybe she's focusing a little too much on the gifts and maybe not enough on the yearning underneath of I want to be closer to the family.

[Gretchen Rubin]

And it seems that she's projecting a lot onto the brother and his wife. She's using words like inconsiderate, monopolizing, thoughtless. And one thing is that some people just don't want things. They don't find that gifts are welcome. It can be very common when you have kids, that there's gift overload. There's a lot of stuff coming in. People have different values. It may be that he's not being deliberately thoughtless. It's just not what they value as a family. And the fact is, the brother is in charge here. It might be a better approach to be gracious and cheerful about what he's trying to direct you to do. Rather than saying, I really want to give a gift and you're thoughtless. If you don't make it possible for me maybe to say something like, if there's something special throughout the year that you see that they really want, I would love to give that to the child. But if she keeps continuing to Press and complain. They may just continue to push back.

[Lori Gottlieb]

I think, because she's hearing this as rejection, it's getting in the way of hearing what the brother's communicating to her. He's not saying you're not important. He's saying, you don't know what it's like when there are all these gifts that come into the house, that first of all, we have to come up with what they want, which is labor on our part. We have to figure out what that is. Then we have all these gifts here. What easiest is maybe they really like books, and maybe the vouchers are really what they truly want. And so just because you don't get to see them open up a gift and get that picture with them with the gift, maybe they really enjoy having the option throughout the year to say, here's a voucher, and during the year, they're going to pick up a book, and that's going to be from the aunt.

[Gretchen Rubin]

This is also making me think of the Gary Chapman book, the Five Love Languages. He argues that people have different love languages. There's words of affirmation, which is my love language, physical touch, quality time, acts of service, and then receiving gifts. And people who have receiving gifts as their love language often love to give gifts, and that's how they express love. And it may be that this aunt wants to express love in her language, but it's not the language that the family is welcoming. And so everybody's very unsatisfied. But sometimes when you just say, well, this is my way, but it's not working in this situation, then you can say, okay, well, what's a different way for me to feel close to these two girls and find a way to connect with them? If I can't do it through gifts, can we do it through FaceTime? Can we do it through phone calls, or can I visit more often? There's a lot of different ways to connect. Even if you can't connect in the way that you would love to connect, which is through these very special gifts.

[Lori Gottlieb]

Right. And I think when you talk about the five love languages, sometimes we confuse what our love language is with what somebody else might want.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Oh, yeah.

[Lori Gottlieb]

That it might be that Leanne really loved getting gifts, and it made her feel really connected to people. And so she just assumes that that's what's gonna happen with the nieces, but maybe there's another way to connect. So what is our advice? I think what we're talking about here is that she wants connection. So I think our advice is speak directly to your brother and ask, what is another way that I can connect with your daughters, which I really want to do. And then once you have other ways of connecting with the nieces, I think the gift won't loom so large because you will feel connected in other ways.

[Gretchen Rubin]

And recognize that from their perspective, they're not deliberately shutting you out. They're not monopolizing, they're not rejecting. From their perspective, you're asking a lot. You're asking them to welcome more things into their home, into identifying what that special present is, then to manage the thank yous and the facetime of the joyful opening. That's a lot to ask, and it's not what they seek. So recognize that it's not coming from a place of rejecting you and your desire to connect, but rather just about this stuff, even though you're frustrated by that. There might be other ways to connect. And here's just a very practical if you really love to give gifts but they're resisting the gifts, maybe you could find some kind of collection that the nieces really enjoy and that is really fun for you to give as a gift, but that doesn't feel like more stuff coming in. In my family, for instance, we have very special Christmas ornaments. You'd get a really extravagant Christmas ornament, and then you're creating a collection. And then when I went off and had my own household, I had my own Christmas ornaments that I had collected all over the years. Maybe you could find something like that where it would satisfy your desire to give that special gift. It would be exciting for the girls to collect. And then maybe it wouldn't feel like that stuff that your brother is resisting.

[Lori Gottlieb]

That's such a great idea. And also to take away the layer of the parents having to put together the list and figure out what to do. Just ask the kids yourself if you want to have a closer relationship with them.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yes, exactly.

[Lori Gottlieb]

Even though you live far away, what's great about technology today is you can FaceTime, you can email, you can text, you can call them yourself and say, hey, holidays are coming up. What is it that you want? And that might be a special thing between you and them directly so the parents don't have to worry about. Well, now we have to figure out what they want and we have to take. Tell the right people. Ask the kids yourself. That can strengthen the relationship too.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Well, since you ask yours, we want to hear from you. What would you recommend? Have you been in a situation like this on either side? You know, maybe we hear from the other Side as well. Let us know at the since you ask podcast.com.

[Lori Gottlieb]

And now we're going to hear from you. We have another poll that you all gave great answers to. This one went like this. Do you enjoy getting texts from friends and family throughout the day or do you find it annoying? Now we were talking about this because I find it incredibly distracting to get texts throughout the day. I kind of feel like that's my time, that's my work time, that's my whatever I'm doing during my daytime. And I don't want to be interrupted with text throughout the day. But other people love it. Other people feel like, well, that's how we stay connected and that really makes me happy during the day or it cheers me up. And I think, Gretchen, you have a different perspective on this than I do.

[Gretchen Rubin]

I really like it from friends and family. What I object to is a big group text where they can kind of just blow up and then there's a huge amount of exchange. If there's a lot of people in a group, then I tend to not follow it that closely. But if it's really a one on one or a few people, I really do enjoy that. I get a big kick out of it.

[Lori Gottlieb]

So here's what you all said. Our poll responses were I enjoy it. Most of you are in the Gretchen camp. 88% I find it annoying. My camp, 12%. So from the people who enjoyed it, we got a wide range of responses and some that were really thought provoking. And we'll start with this one from Patty. She said, my two sisters, my daughter and myself have a group text. My older sister didn't participate much. However, a couple of weeks ago her husband died unexpectedly. We are encouraging her to participate with us. Not only for us to support her, but also so we can get a feel for how she's doing each day. I live in another state, so family texts are a godsend for me.

[Gretchen Rubin]

I mean this is an example of technology really gonna allow connection just like what we were talking about before. Amanda said, my husband has a term for this. He calls it pebbling. Like when penguins give the ones they love pretty rocks as a sign of love. I have read this. I have seen that this is called pebbling. That's so fun.

[Lori Gottlieb]

Amy said, love it. As long as they're cool if I don't answer right away or maybe ever. They also need to be able to accept them from me with no explanation. I like a free, no pressure brain exchange. See, I think that I could change my mind if I were Doing it Amy's way.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Right? Ann Marie said, I love it. I may not respond right away, but I love the spontaneous nature of this. If people wait to share that random thing until they see you next, you may never hear it. Also, it's a two way street. I like to ping my friends when I'm going through something. Irrespective of where we both are. It's nice to know you're on someone's mind and vice versa. That's why I like it too. It's just a little way to say, oh, this made me think of you.

[Lori Gottlieb]

So I would say the exception is I like getting texts from my son during the day because if he doesn't text me that I know I'll never hear it. If I said to him, save it for later, it would just go away.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Right? It's now or never.

[Lori Gottlieb]

Yep, exactly. Tina said, yes, I love them. It is understood among the people I text with that we all might not be able to respond right away. So there's no pressure involved. It helps us all stay connected, even though most of us are still working and are often busy. I have an aunt I text with and often our only conversation for weeks will be photos or videos of our cats, hers and mine. It serves as a hi, just checking in. This is what's happening in my world. Love you. When either one of us might be too busy or just not have the bandwidth for a lengthy conversation.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah, this is just great for those super easy touches. The slightest ping can make a big difference. Carmelita said, I get them occasionally, but I would love to get more. Sometimes I initiate, but other times I don't because I'm afraid to be a bother. I use the delayed send feature to send at a time that is better for the recipient, like after work if they are working or the next day if it's late. And I know they are a morning person. That's good. I only realized fairly recently that you can change the time on when a text delivers and that has really helped me be a lot more thoughtful.

[Lori Gottlieb]

Yeah. And Carmelita really touches on why I was in the 12% camp. It's not that I don't like getting texts, it's that I don't like getting them when I'm in the middle of things because it distracts me and I don't really have the discipline not to then get into a conversation. Gina said, I don't mind because I turned off notifications on my phone. Oh, see, that's my solution right there.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah, that's what I do. I don't have them turned on.

[Lori Gottlieb]

I only see a text when I choose to pick up my phone. I work in pomodoro sprints and will check my phone when I take a break and respond to texts when it's convenient for me. Okay, so what I'm learning here from all of you is that I just need to learn the technology to control when I get the texts.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yes. Yes. And if you don't know what a pomodoro sprint. A pomodoro is a way of setting a time and then working very intensely and focused in that time. So it makes sense. You put away your phone during your pomodoro sprint and then you check it when it's done. But then there is the 12% that's with you, Lori, who find it annoying. Michelle says, I don't like it. With the exception of one niece. They don't text unless they want something. They're a selfish, greedy bunch. I will say that they have died down considerably because they get tired of hearing no. Okay. Those are not texts you want to receive, so fair enough.

[Lori Gottlieb]

No. Sophie said, I hate the culture of always needing to respond. It's exhausting and makes me want to throw my phone away. Feels like someone barging into my space and it throws me off completely.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah.

[Lori Gottlieb]

And Kim said to me, texting isn't connection, it's clutter. I wish people would stop using it like a stream of consciousness and leave me alone.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Mm, interesting. And then Ann says, I generally like it, but I don't feel the need to respond to every text. Sometimes a particular friend goes on a doom and gloom texting binge that can be a little overwhelming. But he usually gets the message when everyone stops responding. On our long established friend group text message thread, the thing that does bug me is people sending me inspirational gifts for no good reason. But that trend seems to be dying down. Thankfully.

[Lori Gottlieb]

That's right.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Thankfully. Yeah. Yeah.

[Lori Gottlieb]

Teresa said, when it's a group and everyone is responding and liking it, it can get annoying.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah, I agree with that. Linda says, it depends on the person content, what I'm doing, and my mood. So it was interesting to hear everybody's response to this very ordinary aspect of everyday life. Very thought provoking. Coming up, we will tackle a question about someone who has a friend who has a bad conversational habit. But first, this break. This episode is sponsored by hers. Have you noticed changes in your sleep, mood, or cycle and wondered if it's more than stress? You're not alone. Many women experience symptoms tied to hormone changes, but it can be hard to find real answers.

[Lori Gottlieb]

Exactly. Not every OBGYN is trained to address perimenopause, which means too many of us go without the care that we need. This is why HERS is making it easier to get support that is personalized and accessible.

[Gretchen Rubin]

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[Gretchen Rubin]

Visit F-O-R-H-E-R-S.com since you asked to get a personalized perimenopause treatment plan that is right for you. That is f o r h e r s dot com since you asked.

[Lori Gottlieb]

Not available in all 50 states. Perimenopause and menopause by hers includes hormonal health support, educational resources, digital tools and prescription options if appropriate. Hormone replacement therapies are not FDA approved for the treatment of perimenopause, but may be prescribed off label for perimenopausal symptoms at a provider's discretion. See website for full details, important safety information and restrictions.

[Gretchen Rubin]

This episode is sponsored by Fearless Finance. Talking about money can feel intimidating. Whether it's trying to plan ahead, figure out what you can afford, or just make sense of where it all goes each month. It's easy to feel stuck.

[Lori Gottlieb]

Exactly. And that is where Fearless Finance comes in. They make it seem simple to get real financial advice without the high fees or long commitments that usually come with it.

[Gretchen Rubin]

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[Lori Gottlieb]

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[Gretchen Rubin]

Visit fearlessfinance.com today. You can chat with a planner for free to make sure it's a good fit and you will get $50 off your first planning meeting when you use the code. Since you asked.

[Lori Gottlieb]

This episode is sponsored by Career Fingerprint. When it comes time for a performance review or interview, most people forget half of what they have accomplished. You know you have done great work, but when you're in the moment, it can be hard to recall the details.

[Gretchen Rubin]

That is exactly the problem Career Fingerprint solves. Once a week it gives you a simple prompt to record your achievements in your own words. It organizes everything for you so you always have a record of your wins.

[Lori Gottlieb]

When those important meetings come up, you can use your notes to create a cheat sheet, review your accomplishments and even reference past meetings, job descriptions or agendas all on the same screen.

[Gretchen Rubin]

It means no more scrambling before interviews or reviews. Career Fingerprint keeps track of your story so you can tell it when it matters most. It is not AI or social media, just a simple way to build confidence in your career.

[Lori Gottlieb]

Confidence is a habit get started [e-mail] and we're back. We have a question about a friend who constantly one ups people in conversation. This is a very common issue and I'm so glad we got a letter.

[Gretchen Rubin]

About this and this person wants to be anonymous.

[Anonymous Listener (Feeling one up)]

Hi Gretchen and Laurie, thanks for taking my question. I've got a friend I really care about, but she has this habit that drives me a little nuts. She always one ups people in conversation. For example, I told her I hiked three miles last weekend and felt pretty proud of it right away. She jumped in with, oh, that's nice. I did five miles and it only took me an hour. Stuff like that happens all the time, no matter what we're talking about. I don't think she means to be rude, but it makes me feel like my experiences don't matter as much as hers. How do I deal with this without turning our conversations into an argument or hurting our friendship? I really appreciate some advice here. Thanks. Signed Feeling one up.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Well, the truth is, this topping is very common and probably the friend doesn't realize that she's topping and doesn't realize how it's coming across.

[Lori Gottlieb]

Usually it comes from a place of insecurity and these habits were formed long ago and it's probably related to feeling ignored or dismissed or not important in her childhood. And she doesn't realize that she's doing this in a context where someone actually cares about her. So maybe she wasn't getting attention and she felt like she had to get attention when she was younger, but that's just not useful anymore and instead of bringing people closer to her, she's actually pushing people away.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Well, and she might be trying to bond by saying, oh, I had a similar experience. You went on a hike and I went on a hike and not realizing that the way that she's topping is very consistent and is very annoying.

[Lori Gottlieb]

So there are so many reasons that she could be doing this, but you don't have to just accept that. So what's our advice? The first thing is you don't have to let the conversation get derailed. And one way you can avoid that is when you're telling a story about something and then she one ups you. You can say, right now we're talking about me, and then I want to hear about you, and then just go on with your story.

[Gretchen Rubin]

And if you feel up to it, because this is very difficult, it's to use humor. It can be hard to be humorous because you don't want to be passive aggressive, but if you can say something like, look, are we good enough friends that I can tell you something that you do that drives me absolutely bonkers, and say it in a lighthearted but forthright way. Sometimes if you can achieve that light tone, it can make it much easier for somebody to hear something that's hard in a less defensive way. That can be a real challenge. But if you can strike that note, it can be very, very effective.

[Lori Gottlieb]

Yeah. And if she doesn't get it with the humor, you can have a straightforward conversation and with a lot of compassion so she doesn't feel shamed. You can just say, hey, I notice that when I'm telling you something about myself, I get interrupted by something that you did. And I want you to know I am interested in you, but I also want to have space to talk about me without getting derailed. And I'm sure you don't mean it. I just want to mention this because it's been bugging me. It's all in the delivery. It's, can you do it in a way that feels warm and that you value the friendship and you value her, and. And you notice that there's this dynamic between the two of you that you're trying to call her attention to Laurie.

[Gretchen Rubin]

What about this? I'm not sure that I even say this as advice, but let's just ponder this. Okay. You're speaking, and she tops you. What if you just didn't acknowledge it at all? You just kept talking as if she said nothing. Because one of the things is she's trying to make a bridge. Maybe she's trying to make a connection. You went for a hike, I went for a hike. And if you just ignored it and it didn't move the conversation forward, you just kept talking about your own experience, what would happen? I would sort of be curious.

[Lori Gottlieb]

Yeah. There's actually a Term for that. It's called extinguishing a behavior.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Sure, sure, sure, sure.

[Lori Gottlieb]

So what you're doing is you're not giving it any air, you're not giving it any attention. And then because they're not getting any gratification for it, the behavior extinguishes itself over time. Now it can backfire. Because if she has a need that's not getting met, which is getting some kind of attention, and you take that away, she might up the ante and do it even more in order to be heard or in order to connect. So our suggestion might be, try that as an experiment. Try not giving it any attention. It could make things better or it can make things worse. You won't know until you do the experiment. Report back to us, please.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yes, exactly. And once you've said directly, forthrightly, this is really bothering me, and then if it doesn't change, well, then. This is what we were talking about a while back with our conversation about Nick, who had the flaky friend. Sometimes we have to decide there's the good and the bad. We don't get to pick from the menu. This is the friend we got. Is the good stuff worth it in terms of what we're getting with the friendship?

[Lori Gottlieb]

Right. So is this less than ideal characteristic of a friend worth the good stuff that we get from the friendship or not? And that's the judgment call that you have to make. But if you decide that it's not worth it, please don't ghost your friend without saying what the issue is. And if you want to hear more about ghosting, remember we had a whole conversation about ghosting in episode five, so go back and listen to that. But we are not fans of ghosting. It's really respectful to be able to say to somebody, hey, here's what the issue is. And they can either do something about it or not do something about it. And you can decide, is this worth it to me or is it not worth it to.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Because if you don't say something, it's very unlikely that this person would ever understand that that is the behavior that has caused you to not want to be friends anymore. And it could be very, very hurtful to be in the dark about that.

[Lori Gottlieb]

And also it might be something where later on she says to you, that was the nicest thing that anybody has ever done for me, Because I realized I do that in other contexts. And I was pushing people away and I didn't know why, and people were ghosting me, or I was losing friends, and she might say, I love you. Had enough respect for me and trusted me enough to say that to me because I needed to hear it so it could turn out in a really beautiful way.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah. If anybody's read the book Radical Candor by Kim Scott, this is what she said. The true way to care for people is to give them constructive criticism.

[Lori Gottlieb]

So the bottom line here is that we all need feedback. And the question is, can we get it delivered in a way where we can hear it and feel good about ourselves? That brings us to where we're going to be after the break, which is that even celebrities need advice. And we're going to hear from the writer Elizabeth Gilbert, who has a question for us.

[Gretchen Rubin]

There is one thing that every person on earth has in common. We all move through the world in a human body.

[Lori Gottlieb]

Bodies ache, they bleed, they desire. They hold the stories of our lives.

[Gretchen Rubin]

And when people have power over their bodies, when they can access the care their bodies need, they can begin to write their own stories.

[Lori Gottlieb]

International Planned Parenthood Federation, or ippf, is the world's largest network for sexual and reproductive health, rights and justice. They are sharing real stories of people.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Around the world, like Alina in Malawi who walked miles to the nearest clinic to give birth, only to deliver her baby along the way.

[Lori Gottlieb]

Way everybody holds a story.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Read just a few of them [e-mail] everybody.

[Julia Louis-Dreyfus]

Well, hi everybody. It's Julia Louis Dreyfus from the Wiser Than Me podcast. And I'm not going to talk about food waste this time. I'm going to talk about food resources. All that uneaten food rotting in the landfill. It could be enriching our soil or feeding our chickens because it's still food. And the easiest and frankly, way coolest way to put all its nutrients to work is with the mill food recycler. It looks like an art house garbage can. You can just toss your scraps in it like a garbage can. But it is definitely not a garbage can. I mean, it's true. I'm pretty obsessed with this thing. I even invested in this thing. But I'm not alone. Any mill owner just might corner you at a party and rhapsodize about how it's completely odorless and it's fully automated and how you can keep filling it for weeks. But the clincher is that you can depend on it for years. Mill is a serious machine. Think about a dishwasher, not a toaster. It's built by hand in North America and it's engineered by the guy who did your iPhone. But you have to kind of live with Mill to understand all the love. That's why they offer a risk free trial. Go to mill.com wiser for an exclusive offer.

[Gretchen Rubin]

And now we're back. So on the Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast, we did a book club episode with the writer Elizabeth Gilbert, who of course is so well known for her blockbuster bestseller, Eat, Pray Love. And she has a new memoir, all the Way to the River. That's the book that we were talking about. And so of course I asked Liz if she had any request for advice from us. And this is what she asked. So, Liz, do you have any advice that you'd like to ask from Laurie and me?

[Lori Gottlieb]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Gilbert]

How do you guys handle the anxiety of worrying about friends or family members who are acting out or behaving in various ways that just look sort of dangerous to you or frightening to you, or are in relationships that you feel like they're harming themselves in or are in one way or another doing things that you wish they weren't doing and that cause you to kind of obsess about their lives. Asking for a codependent friend Well, I.

[Lori Gottlieb]

Think we all know that asking for a friend is never asking for a friend.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Any sense you ask is you're always welcome to ask for a friend.

[Lori Gottlieb]

Always, Always. We all do that. But Liz has been very public about her relationship with codependence. But even if you don't consider yourself codependent, I relate to this. As a parent, I never felt this way with friends, but I did have to learn the hard way to let my kid make decisions about his life, even if I thought I knew better. And by the way, I did not always know better. And if things turned out badly, to just trust that he's resilient and he'd learned from the experience. So I think that sometimes we can get overly invested and have this illusion of control over what our friends do. And I think sometimes it's helpful to step back and you can share your thoughts. Not by saying, hey, you're making a huge mistake, but just to observe with them. Here's what I'm noticing and here are my concerns. Or I wonder if there's a part of you that has similar worries about this. Right. So it's just asking questions as opposed to being so invested in the outcome.

[Gretchen Rubin]

And one thing that I often remind myself when I see people doing things that I think are a mistake is this old proverb, a stumble may prevent a fall. And sometimes when people make a mistake, it's actually a mistake that will save them from making a much bigger mistake later, or teach them a lesson that they really, really need to learn. And so if we're constantly trying to intervene and rescue them from consequences, we may actually interfere with that process and make things worse from them later on.

[Lori Gottlieb]

Our role as a friend is to be there to share our thoughts if they're wanted and be there for support if things go south. And maybe ask questions like, oh, tell me how you're thinking about this so I can understand where you're coming from better. So that when they articulate what they're thinking, maybe they will start to realize, oh, there might be a better choice or path here. But I do think that if things continuously go south, that they repeatedly make poor choices or they have behaviors that keep getting them into situations that they don't want to be in, there's an opportunity as a friend to say, this feels familiar. We talk about potential outcomes and you still end up here and you're still in pain. It seems to me this keeps happening. Do you notice that? And if they continue even after that to do the same kinds of things and they keep coming to you with these things, at a certain point you can say, I'm not sure how I can be helpful, because you don't want to be in the role of supporting someone who won't change their behavior to get a better outcome. That's not helpful to them at all.

[Gretchen Rubin]

And I think along the same lines, something you could do is remind them of what they may have said. Something like, I remember you telling me that you wanted to take a break between relationships, but it looks like that's not happening. So you're helping them remember what they themselves have said just by observing it. And that can also help them reflect on what they're doing.

[Lori Gottlieb]

And there are certain people who are what we call help rejecting complainers.

[Gretchen Rubin]

I love this phrase. When I learned about help rejecting complainers, so much became clear to me.

[Lori Gottlieb]

Yes, help rejecting complainers are people who constantly ask, what should I do? Or I'm in the situation and this bad thing happened, but they don't want a solution. They actually just want to complain. And it serves them that somehow they're getting some gratification. And it's probably outside of their awareness, but they're getting some gratification from complaining. And so you get really frustrated as their friend because you think, well, I gave them good advice, or they know exactly what they need to do, and yet they keep doing this thing over and over and over again. And that is a help rejecting complainer. They don't want a solution, they just want to complain.

[Gretchen Rubin]

I find that what works is to say, so what do you plan to do? Right, because if you offer any advice, they reject it. But if you just say, well, what are you planning to do? It ends that, so what is our advice?

[Lori Gottlieb]

The first thing is tell the friend what you notice. But remember that they are in control of their life and you're there to maybe help them process something or make observations. But it's not your responsibility to solve their life problems.

[Gretchen Rubin]

And it may be helpful to remember that this experience may be helping them to learn something, some lesson or some consequence that's important. And so you don't want to rescue them, you want to let them decide what they're going to do.

[Lori Gottlieb]

I think sometimes, looking at this through the lens of parenting, we always say you want to support but not rescue, that you have to trust that when somebody is ready to make a change, they will do that, but not one minute before.

[Gretchen Rubin]

And here's something that's just very practical, which is you can schedule time to worry. If you do feel overwhelmed with worry about something that a friend or a family member is doing, you can set aside a certain amount of time every day or once a week, or however much time you need. And you try not to worry outside of those times. You're not repressing the worry, you're just saying it's not time to worry. Don't do it right before bed, obviously, but then if it's 3 o' clock on Wednesday, you can sit down with a pad of paper and a pen and say, now I'm going to worry. And you can worry away. But sometimes that allows people to free their minds from the worry that can otherwise just feel overwhelming because it's running through our minds all the time.

[Lori Gottlieb]

Sometimes what the other person is doing is they're projecting their worry onto you. They're kind of handing it over to you so that they don't have to worry about their own life. And now you're carrying all the anxiety and you're like, why are you not worried about this? They should be worried about it. But no, they don't have to worry about it because they handed all the worry over to you and now you're sitting there with this big bag of worry. So just be aware of that. Whose bag is it to hold? And it's not your bag to hold. You can care about a friend, but you don't need to take over their anxiety.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Yeah, but since you ask yourself, what is your advice? What have you done when you've been in this situation. Unfortunately, it's a very common situation. How have you managed your anxiety when you felt overwhelmed with worry about someone that you love? And now, until next time, we have a question that we are going to leave you with for you to ponder. What is the advice that you would give? We would love to hear your thoughts. You can go to theseenseuspodcast.com to tell us what you think. We will be taking this up in the next episode and this comes from someone who did not give a name.

[Lori Gottlieb]

This person writes, I have a large extended family and sometimes host family get togethers twice now. An oversensitive 20 something niece has spent most of the party crying in the kitchen, the hub of the party. It's a real buzzkill as you can imagine, and I find myself loathed to host again, though I know it's inevitable that I will. For example for my daughter's graduation next year. The sobbing isn't from alcohol consumption. She doesn't drink, but from feeling bad about something. She doesn't have a boyfriend, she thinks someone else in the family is mad at her, she feels bad taking some of the leftovers, et cetera. I'm very old fashioned and pushing 50 so getting up there, but I thought it would be clear that a celebratory occasion hosted by someone else would not be the place to indulge in this kind of behavior. I learned that you put on your party face or if unable, make a polite excuse about being, quote, unwell and go home to wallow. To me it seems immature, attention seeking and quite rude. Unfortunately, there are others who rush to comfort her in her perceived victimhood and it turns into a big thing. What can I do to prevent another maudlin scene from souring a joyous occasion? So we'll be taking this up next week. We want to hear from you. Do you have a point of view on this? Tell [e-mail] and weigh in.

[Gretchen Rubin]

And that's it for today. Remember to send us your questions about navigating the upcoming holidays. And as we have said since you asked us, we really want you to weigh in. We love getting the updates. We love hearing your responses. You are a big part of the show.

[Lori Gottlieb]

We read every single one.

[Gretchen Rubin]

So go to theseenseous podcast.com, follow us on each of our social media accounts or check the show notes and remember.

[Lori Gottlieb]

To tell your friends if any of the advice that we've talked about on the show might be helpful for them. Word of mouth is really helpful for a new show, helps people discover us.

[Gretchen Rubin]

Absolutely. And remember, whether this podcast changes your life or it just makes you laugh, we're glad you're here.

[Lori Gottlieb]

Since you asked is for entertainment purposes only and isn't a substitute for professional advice. By sending us your question, you're agreeing we may use it on the show and edit it for length or clarity.