How to Manage a Dramatic Family Member? Plus: Separating Twice & Staying Together With Mandy Patinkin & Kathryn Grody

Summary

Podcast Summary

Since You Asked with Lori Gottlieb and Gretchen Rubin

Episode: How to Manage a Dramatic Family Member? Plus: Separating Twice & Staying Together with Mandy Patinkin & Kathryn Grody
Date: November 4, 2025
Host: Lemonada Media

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Episode Overview

This episode features the iconic couple—actor/singer Mandy Patinkin and actress/writer Kathryn Grody—joining hosts Gretchen Rubin and Lori Gottlieb to offer advice on two listener dilemmas: managing a dramatic family member at gatherings, and setting boundaries with visiting parents. The candid, deeply personal conversation draws on Mandy and Kathryn's 40+ years of marriage, their therapy experiences, and their celebrated roles as advice-givers on their own podcast, Don't Listen to Us. Central themes include the reality of messy relationships, the challenge and necessity of change, reframing difficulties, and the unvarnished humor that sustains long-term love.

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Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Mandy and Kathryn: On Giving & Receiving Advice

• Podcasting Together: Mandy and Kathryn reveal that their son Gideon inspired them to start podcasting:

  “I tend to say yes to anything that Gideon is interested in doing.” – Kathryn (05:00)

• Imposter Syndrome About Advice:

  “Discomfort with advice. Who are we to dispense advice? I’m not an analyst, a therapist…” – Kathryn (05:32)
  Both describe a hesitance to be ‘advice givers’ but acknowledge the universal human curiosity about other people’s experiences.

• Advice as Connection:

  “It is both your show and maybe ours, an antidote to feeling isolated.” – Kathryn (05:52)

Notable Quotes:

• “Absolutely not for me, I don’t give advice to my friends.” – Mandy (06:04)
• “When your sons start to parent you…it’s a real switch.” – Kathryn (07:24)
• “I refer to myself as volcanic because I don’t see it coming.” – Mandy (06:30)

2. Change and Personal Growth in Long-Term Marriage

• Therapy and Self-Reflection: Mandy recalls a pivotal therapy moment recognizing not everyone processes emotions the same way, and how listening—learned in part through acting on Homeland—changed him (08:38–09:32).
• Pandemic Effects: They agree the pandemic brought increased kindness and compassion into their marriage (08:27–08:38).
• Learning Not to Fix Everything: Their therapists repeatedly encouraged "stay with the discomfort" and not to reflexively fix each other (16:54).
• Humor and Reframing: Laughter is highlighted as their marital glue, dissolving everyday tensions (29:24).

Notable Quotes:

• “Stop trying to fix everything. The Buddhist idea of stay with the discomfort…that part of your brain that’s primitive will get bored with it and move on.” – Mandy (16:54)
• “We’re messy. It’s not a frightening thing to be messy. Chaos is different. Abuse is different. Character assassination is different.” – Kathryn (34:04)

3. Advice Segment: Handling a Dramatic Family Member at Gatherings ([10:07–14:55])

• Listener Dilemma (Paraphrased): A woman hosts family parties; a niece repeatedly cries in the kitchen, undermining celebrations. The behavior isn’t substance-fueled and seems immature and disruptive. The host wants strategies to prevent future “maudlin scenes.”
• Kathryn’s Approach: Sympathy for the host. Advocate honesty: talk to the niece privately at a non-event time, offer genuine support, and set boundaries for future gatherings (11:16–12:13).

  “Say, ‘I’m so sorry you’re feeling badly. I’d be glad to listen and help when we’re all not together, being joyful.’” – Kathryn (12:00)

• Mandy’s Twist: After a second occurrence, he suggests a tactic of “flooding with misery” so the niece experiences the effect of her behavior, but underscores the importance of kindness—especially on the first occasion (12:17–13:00).

  “Kindness, I think, is the number one quality that all human beings all over the globe need to practice, practice, practice.” – Mandy (13:00)

• Hosts’ Takeaway: Affirm the importance of “time and place,” suggest assigning a relative as a “listener” to move the niece to a private space and minimize disruption (14:18–14:30).

Memorable Exchanges:

• “Or she’s seducing you with her misery.” – Lori (13:49)
• “I love that. I’m going to use that.” – Kathryn (13:52)

4. Marriage Challenges: Separation, Being ‘Unfixable’ & Staying Together ([15:08–34:04])

• Worst Advice Ever Received: A therapist once recommended they divorce and handed out her own sister’s divorce lawyer card, prompting laughter and shock (15:08–15:54).
• Separation Stories: Two separations, each ultimately brief, led to the realization that, in Mandy’s words, “we were separation failures” (25:29). Acceptance—not exhaustive self- or partner-improvement—was the “healing ointment.”

  “I just went, I can’t change this person and she can’t change me.” – Mandy (25:41)

• Living with ‘Unfixable’ Traits: Kathryn shares her surrender to Mandy’s habit of leaving social gatherings without saying goodbye; Mandy defends his “introvert exit” (17:46–18:28).

  “I just like to disappear. And I do, and I’m happy to do it.” – Mandy (18:20)

• Laughter and Absurdity: Episodes like the “urgent strawberries” on a car ride show how small annoyances are inevitable but the couple defuses tension with humor (26:18–29:24).
• Reframing and Growth Through Struggle:

  “When everything goes great…nothing happens. When you struggle, when you’re having a difficult time, that’s when you grow.” – Mandy (33:06)

5. Setting Boundaries with Parents Who Visit ([38:16–42:45])

• Listener Voice Note: A newlywed seeks advice on politely asking her own parents, who visit a few times a year, to stay in a hotel rather than their guest room, since her husband finds long visits overwhelming. She feels guilty asking this, wanting to maximize time with her parents as a recent empty-nester child.
• Kathryn’s Take: Expresses empathy; would find it difficult to ask visiting parents to stay elsewhere (“it would be pretty hard for me to say, please stay in a hotel” – 40:14), especially as husband’s parents live nearby and visit frequently.
• Mandy’s Take: Prioritizes honesty and personal boundaries, explaining that for some people, space is non-negotiable:

  “I’d say, honey, listen, I love your parents, but I need my own space…Help me please keep my privacy.” – Mandy (41:37)

• Joint Compromise: Kathryn offers that usually there’s a practical way to design space so everyone’s needs are met—sometimes friends or relatives stay, sometimes they don’t.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• “I refer to myself as volcanic…before I know it, I’ve sort of exploded or fallen into tears.” – Mandy (06:30)
• “Stop trying to fix everything…It’s the greatest thing as a therapist, as a human being, as anybody on this planet. You will love this.” – Mandy, referencing the Bob Newhart sketch (16:54–17:22)
• “It’s very difficult to write about tedium without being tedious.” – Stephen Sondheim’s advice to Kathryn (19:09)
• “I think…be present. Appreciate what you have in front of you. Let go of some of the things that just aren’t going to change.” – Lori, summing up the marriage lessons (32:05)
• “Life is a messy thing…Those difficult moments…those are your gifts.” – Mandy (33:06)
• “It is not a frightening thing to be messy.” – Kathryn (34:04)
• Humorous moment: “You can look at me and talk to me in such a mean way. I’ve never seen her speak to any other human on the planet the way she talks to me…we are laughing hysterically.” – Mandy (28:45–29:24)

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Important Segments & Timestamps

| Segment | Timestamp | |-----------------------------------|-------------| | Meet Mandy & Kathryn, Advice Philosophy | 04:22–07:24 | | Therapy & Changing in Marriage | 08:18–09:32 | | Listener Letter: Dramatic Niece | 10:07–14:55 | | Worst Advice Ever / Separations | 15:08–17:39 | | What Have You Stopped Trying to Fix | 17:39–21:01 | | Breaking Down Long Marriage Struggles | 24:59–34:04 | | Listener Dilemma: Parents Visiting | 38:16–42:45 | | Final Reflections & Takeaways | 32:05, 33:06, 34:04 |

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Recurring Themes & Tone

• Radical Honesty: Both couples and hosts repeatedly model and recommend clear, compassionate directness.
• Acceptance and Surrender: Long-term relationships require letting go of certain expectations for change.
• The Value of Therapy—When Good, When Bad: Not all therapists are helpful, but the right match (with boundaries or without) can be transformative.
• Humor as Survival Tool: Even the strangest marital annoyances can dissolve in shared laughter.
• Reframing Messiness: Both as individuals and as a couple, finding growth, humor, and connection in imperfection, not in ‘solving’ everything.

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Summary

This episode offers a rich, vulnerable master class in both the art and the limits of advice. Mandy Patinkin and Kathryn Grody—through stories of marital friction, therapy gone wrong and right, and the unvarnished absurdity of daily life—demonstrate that long-term partnership is an ongoing, messy conversation. Real change is incremental (or sometimes impossible), humor is a better solvent than perfectionism, and direct, kind communication is the best answer to even the trickiest family dilemmas. For listeners navigating difficult relatives, rocky marriages, or the politics of visiting parents, their advice is clear: be honest, accept what can’t be changed, always be kind—and when in doubt, reframe the messy moment with laughter.

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Transcript

[A]

There is one thing that every person on Earth has in common. We all move through the world in a human body.

[B]

Our bodies ache, they bleed, they desire, they hold the stories of our lives.

[A]

International Planned Parenthood Federation, or ippf, is sharing some of those stories from around the world.

[B]

Read them [e-mail] everybody.

[C]

Hey everybody, it's Hoda Kotb and I would love for you to join me for new episodes of my podcast, Making Space. Each week I'm having conversations with authors, actors, speakers and dear friends of mine, folks who are seeking the truth, compassion and self discovery. I promise you will lead these talks stronger and inspired to make space in your own life for growth and change. To start listening, just search Making Space wherever you get your podcasts and follow for new episodes every Wednesday.

[D]

Lemonade.

[B]

Mandy Patinkin and Katherine Brody, in your marriage, what is something that you each have stopped trying to fix?

[C]

This is a great example, actually. We had an enormous fight right before we were going to have this engagement party. Engagement party. I called his cousin and I said, listen, we've got to cancel it. We're not getting married. And then I hear from honey, what are you wearing? To. To what? To our party. And I said, what about that fight? And he said, it was just a fight. That had never occurred to me.

[A]

It's very helpful to see things in a way that reframes them in a much different light. Hey, Lori.

[B]

Hey Gretchen.

[A]

Hello everyone. Welcome to since youe Asked, a podcast where Lori and I give our best advice to listeners who are struggling with a dilemma, whether big or small. We give our advice and we also include a lot of responses from our since youe Asked listeners. I'm Gretchen Rubin, a writer who studies happiness, good habits, human nature. I'm also host of a podcast called Happier with Gretchen Rubin.

[B]

And I'm Laurie Gottlieb. I'm a psychotherapist and the author of maybe youe Should Talk to Someone. I also write the Ask the Therapist advice column for the New York Times. And today we have a very special surprise. We're so excited to be here today with the husband and wife team of Mandy Patinkin and Katherine Grody, who are going to help answer your questions.

[A]

Mandy Patinkin is an actor and singer who has appeared in musical theater, TV and film. He has won or been nominated for the Tony Award, the Emmy Award, the Golden Globe, among others. He has appeared on Broadway, hit TV shows, and movies. He has done solo concert performances on Broadway, in London's West End, and on tour. He is known for so many roles, too many to mention just to name a few of my personal favorites. He was Saul Berenson in the Showtime drama Homeland and and he played Inigo Montoya in the absolute classic the Princess Bride movie, which I just rewatched with my family last month and close to my heart. He is a passionate advocate for organ donation because Mandy is a cornea transplant.

[B]

Recipient and Katherine Grody is an actress, writer and producer. Her distinguished theater career includes the Obie Award winning the Marriage of Betty and Boo and Top Girls, among many others. She's also an author, the book and One Woman show of a Mom's Life and the One Woman show the Unexpected. Third, she has appeared in TV and movies and starred in the movie the Lemon Sisters alongside Carol Kane and the late great Diane Keaton. And during the pandemic, the two became unlikely social media stars. And now they have 4 million followers enjoying a delightfully unvarnished glimpse into 40 plus years of marriage between two intensely passionate and highly opinionated human beings.

[A]

And now they are doing a podcast together. Don't Listen to Us. A new take it or leave it advice show hosted by the two of them with their plus occasional comment by their dog, Becky. And of course, we love it because it's also an advice podcast. Here's the description. Each week, Mandy and Catherine drive into their triumphs and disasters as artists, parents, lovers and humans to give their unique take on their dilemmas. Gideon keeps the peace, Becky the dog adds commentary, and you'll either laugh until you cry or cry until you laugh. Drop by for a little comfort in this fakacta world.

[D]

Hello.

[C]

Hello.

[A]

We're so excited to be talking to you today.

[C]

Well, it's so nice to be talking to qualified advice givers.

[B]

Well, welcome. We are so glad to have you ride along with us and help us give advice to our listeners today. And before we get to today's advice, we want to know a few things about the two of you. And first of all, we just want to know, since we're loving your podcast, are you guys having fun with the new podcast?

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

We don't know what we're doing. No, honestly, we'll be completely lost.

[C]

I can't. Honestly, I tend to say yes to anything that Gideon is interested in doing. Our older son, I just said please.

[D]

Your children and maybe they'll love you.

[A]

Ooh, that's good advice.

[B]

It seems like your area of comfort, what you guys are so good at is talking about relationships. Whether it's about your relationship, your long marriage, your relationship with Your kids. There's so much that your life experience has to offer us, and yet you call the podcast Don't Listen to Us. So how did you decide on that for your title?

[D]

Gideon came up with it, and we loved it.

[C]

It was because of the discomfort with advice. You know, who are we to dispensing advice? I'm not an analyst, a therapist. I'm. You know, it's one thing to give advice to your friends that you know very well.

[A]

Well, I think that's one of the most surprising things about advice, is that we're interested in people's advice. Other people's experience is endlessly fascinating.

[C]

Well, I think also, Gretchen, one of the things it is both your show and maybe ours, an antidote to feeling isolated.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You said you offer advice to your friends. Do your friends take your advice? Do they listen to your advice?

[D]

Absolutely not for me, I don't give advice to my friends.

[B]

Mandy, do you take the advice from your friends?

[D]

Yes, if they have a comment to make to me. My son Gideon is giving me advice a lot. I was just driving down to Pennsylvania to see my wife in her play and pick her up and bring her back home after she'd been gone for two and a half months. And I was thinking about things that Gideon had said to me.

[B]

Like what?

[D]

Well, try to not be so intense. Try to not be so. I refer to myself as volcanic because I don't see it coming. I have a lot of thoughts and feelings about a lot of things. Somebody asked me a question, and we get rolling on some topic, and before I know it, I've sort of exploded or fallen into tears or whatever the hell happens, and I don't have control over it. I remember watching an interview that I did with Charlie Rose once. I was being who I am, and I looked at Katherine and I said, how could anybody listen to me? It's exhausting. It's just horrible. I just was appalled at myself. So I've seen it. My son criticized it. He asks me on occasion, try not to have one of those explosions if you can.

[C]

You know, it's very interesting to me when your sons start to parent you. It's a real switch. And a lot of the time, our older son, Isaac, he's given me very gentle advice to make room for other people not to dominate the conversation, which I can think is fun and entertaining, but he feels it can lead to not letting other people speak. I find it very interesting how things switch. They're very good listeners. Partly, I think, in reaction to growing up in A household with two people that took up so much friggin space.

[B]

We had a question on the podcast recently where she was saying, I'm really snappy with my husband and he should just get over it because that's who I am and I'm not gonna change. And I wonder, after you got this advice from your kids, did it make you feel like you wanna change a little bit or do you feel like you are who you are and you can't change?

[D]

No, we have changed.

[C]

And I feel Mandy is much. He doesn't control when a volcano erupts, but there's times when the it's dormant.

[A]

And you talked in the podcast episode how you thought that during the pandemic that, that you became kinder and more compassionate because of the intense togetherness. I thought that was a really interesting consequence of the pandemic period.

[D]

Yeah, yeah, I remember we had a therapist, Mary, that took care of both of us. And at one point, I'll never forget, she said, this is a watershed moment. I said something and she said, mandy, you know how you feel. Do you understand that sometimes Catherine doesn't know how she feels? I never thought of that being a possibility. And what she was trying to say was talk less and listen more. And it took me years. It wasn't till 10 years later or more, maybe even much more. And when I played Saul Berenson in Homeland, what the writers wrote taught me to listen better as a human being. I mean, my job in that was to take care of this young woman who had psychological issues and I was her caretaker and her, you know, her support system. I thought one of the things that that show was about was listening.

[C]

Mandy loves and is very comfortable with quiet. I am not. And for his birthday a few years ago, I gave him a gift. And at the end of the day I said, did you enjoy your gift? Because my gift to him was that I was practically mute all day.

[A]

Well, speaking of listening, we would love to read to you a question from a listener that we teed up last week to have everybody ponder their answers and hear what your response would be to this dilemma that a listener finds herself in.

[B]

So here's the question. I have a large extended family and sometimes host family get togethers. Twice now an oversensitive 20something niece has spent most of the party crying in my kitchen, the hub of the party. It's been a real buzzkill, as you can imagine, and I find myself loathe to host again, though I know it's inevitable that I will. For example, for my daughter's graduation next year. The sobbing isn't from alcohol consumption. She doesn't drink, but from feeling bad about something. She doesn't have a boyfriend. She thinks someone else in the family is mad at her. She feels bad taking some of the leftovers, et cetera. I feel I'm very old fashioned and pushing 50, so getting up there. But I thought it would be clear that a celebratory occasion hosted by someone else would not be the place to indulge in this kind of behavior. I learned that you put on your party face or if unable, make a polite excuse about being, quote, unwell and go home to wallow. To me, it seems immature, attention seeking and quite rude. Unfortunately, there are others who rush to comfort her in her perceived victimhood and it turns into a big thing. What can I do to prevent another maudlin scene from souring a joyous occasion?

[A]

So, Mandy and Catherine, any advice?

[C]

I'm surprised to find myself a little bit sympathetic toward the host. I have had experiences with some relations that are sort of similar, and I'm a pretty empathetic person and I listened to a lot. But there is a time and a place and I mean, I feel that it would probably behoove her to take this young person aside and be honest with her and maybe with some other family members and say, I'm so sorry you're feeling badly. And I'd be glad to listen and help when we're all not together, being joyful. And then if it's a repeat, I would get people that are really close to her to talk about one, how she can solve her problems in an appropriate place and wonder why she needs to make a connection through her sorrows with everybody and making sure nobody else gets to be joyful. Because you're not going to be joyful while somebody's stomping in your kitchen. Yeah, that's what I would do.

[D]

I mean, I. I'd take a different approach.

[B]

Okay, let's hear your approach, Mandy.

[D]

Particularly on the second round. First time, I'd listen, be empathetic, try to be nice, but let the person finish, get it off their chest and, you know, be kind. Kindness, I think, is the number one quality that all human beings all over the globe need to practice, practice, practice. But if she did this twice to me, and I've had people in my life that do this, I think what I would do is I wouldn't want to sit and listen to it again. I think I would flood them with misery. I would tell them about all my friends that are dying, the different illnesses that they have, things that are wrong with me, I would never give them one second to say a single word. And I would go on and on until they had to leave the room. I just want her to experience what she's doing to others.

[B]

So both of you feel that time and place is important and this is not the venue for that.

[C]

Yeah. Basically, if she's done it twice, I would want. If it had only happened once, I wouldn't feel that way. Laurie, you have options. Go to a therapist. Go to a professional person.

[D]

Yeah. When Kathleen says that they should go see a therapist, they're not interested in that unless they feel that they're in a corner weeping and want to find a way out of it. And they've heard about therapy and. And they say, well, I need to try that. But for you to. In the middle of them desperate and looking for help and an ear to start to lecture them in a way, if the moment comes when they say, do you have any ideas? Do you have any thoughts of any way I could help myself, then you can offer.

[C]

Well, obviously, if she's saying these things, she wants advice, she wants help, or she just wants to be listened to.

[B]

Or she's seducing you with her misery.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Right.

[C]

I love that. I'm going to use that.

[B]

I think the thing is, a lot of us don't tell people who are exhausting that they're exhausting. We just avoid them. And so I like your advice about Katherine. Taking her aside and saying, hey, I really do care about you. I'm happy to talk about this in a different environment, but when I have people over for a party, that's not the right time or place. And let's have a different conversation about what might be helpful.

[A]

Or maybe you can assign a relative to her and say, okay, if this starts up again, just whisk her into a back room and tell her, well, let's get you some privacy while you collect yourself. So they're out of the main stage.

[C]

It's funny, I remember doing that a lot with a very young cousin. She was 12 and not thrilled with her mom. And every occasion that celebrated her mom, she would come up with something, you know, and I would often take her away, give her some attention she wanted, you know, so that she felt safe. And then we could go back to celebrating.

[A]

Well, it's great to get your advice on that, but now let's switch it to you. And what is the worst advice that either of you have received or given?

[D]

Sent me to a Therapist. I went to this person and this person said, I think you need to leave each other.

[B]

Seriously?

[D]

Yeah. This was what this person said, it.

[C]

Was a bad period.

[D]

Yeah, bad period. But she said, I think, yeah, we had. We separated twice, but we could never be away from each other. We were on the phone every day in the restaurant every day. Talking to each other, weeping all the time.

[B]

What's the longest you were apart?

[D]

Six and eight, right? Six weeks and eight weeks, was it.

[C]

I think it was a little longer, honey. I think the first was three months.

[D]

I don't remember who we have. On my 25th wedding anniversary, she gave me this. This silver ring that has two bumps in it, and those are for what we refer to as our troubles.

[A]

It's the bumps in the road.

[D]

Bumps in the road. This therapist also said, and you should see my sister, who's a divorce lawyer.

[C]

What?

[A]

Wow.

[D]

And I thought, wow, this is like twofer. This is like, you know, one stop shop. Yeah, you just get everything there, you know? Do you have organic berries?

[B]

I thought she bet you should see my sister. Like, you should divorce your wife. And my sister's single, and you should.

[D]

Go out with her. My sister will give you a good divorce deal. My sister's a divorce lawyer.

[A]

There's so many things wrong with that.

[D]

I really thought, I can't get out of here quick enough.

[B]

Did you ever then see a therapist that was helpful?

[D]

Many times. Yeah. We had a therapist who. I wouldn't be here today talking to you, probably with two different people in my life. I don't know how long I was with Mary Sands. First I was with Mary alone. And she passed away. And we love her. And we loved her whole family. We. Everything's in a place.

[C]

Yeah, those boundaries were probably.

[D]

We don't believe in boundaries. And we find people that don't either.

[A]

Okay.

[D]

And she just, you know, eventually said, I think I need to see you guys together. And then we did. Together. And we did separate, both of us. And then I had another therapist that I still have to this day. And I, I, I love this man. I wouldn't be here talking to you without this man.

[C]

Yeah, we wouldn't be here.

[D]

This man gave me the best lesson in life. Stop trying to fix everything. Stop trying to fix everything. The Buddhist idea of stay with the discomfort. That part of your brain that's primitive will get bored with it and move on. Stop it. It's that. You know, that Bob Newhart piece?

[B]

No, tell us.

[D]

Look it up. YouTube. The Bob Newhart therapy piece.

[A]

Okay, We'll Put the link in the show notes for sure. Yeah.

[D]

It's the greatest thing as a therapist, as a human being, as anybody on this planet. You will love this, I'll tell you that. It's about stop trying to fix this in the most through laughter, through medic absurdity, from taking it to the nth degree. But it's absolutely dead. Right.

[B]

Okay, so in your marriage, what is something that you each have stopped trying to fix about the other person?

[C]

I've stopped trying to get my husband to say goodnight to people at the end of a meal. It is something that's driven both our sons and me insane for many years. We're sitting around with friends and people and, you know, having normal, wonderful interaction. And he gets up and everybody thinks he's gone to the loo and he just never comes back. Huh.

[B]

This is the introvert part of him.

[C]

Yeah, I guess so. But I'm like, what is so hard about saying good night? It's nothing personal, do you know?

[A]

But it does start a whole thing.

[D]

And I'm gonna call attention to myself and leave and interrupt what's going on. I just like to disappear. And I do, and I'm happy to do it.

[C]

Yeah. So, I mean, I don't love that, but I've given up on that. Steve Sondheim gave me great advice. I was doing a one woman show many, many years ago about being a mother. And he called the next day and said very nice things about the acting. It was called A Mom's Life. It was an answer to the question, are you working now or just staying home having fun? When I had my second son and it really pissed me off. So I went to Joe Papp and Gail Merrifield Papp and I said, I want to theatrically answer that question by showing the labor of parenting from the time they wake up until you put them to bed. So Steve comes to see this show on my worst performance, and he calls and says, I love the acting, blah, blah, blah. And then I said, what did you feel about the writing? And there's this little pause. And he said, well, I think it's very difficult to write about tedium without being tedious. And I said, steve, it's not tedious when I don't do a single speed through. I was so nervous that you and everybody else were there. And he said to me, well, you know what they told Shaw, don't you? And you know, of course. No, I don't know what they told Shaw. They told George Bernard Shaw to cut arms in the man and he said, tell the actors to slow down and I won't need to cut it.

[A]

Interesting. Counterintuitive.

[C]

I hated him seeing the worst day of that show. But I have used that whenever I'm nervous. You assume you're boring people. You don't mean what you say. That was the best piece of advice that I've ever, you know, really practically used. And then the whole thing about making sure I make room for other people. Both my boys have told me that, and it's very funny. To one of my son's partners. She was very, very quiet when we first met her, and at one point I said, listen, I know I can take up a lot of space. And is that one of the reasons you don't speak when I'm around?

[A]

What'd she say?

[C]

She said, catherine, I don't feel you take up a lot of space, and I do not experience there not being room for me. And she had a whole, whole history of why she initially introduced herself as smaller than she was, which she then shared with me. But it helped both of us that I could ask.

[B]

That's so beautiful what you did. And I think that most people who are dating someone's son would love it if that person's mother could speak to them that way and be curious about them.

[C]

Oh, thank you, Laurie. I love that.

[A]

So stop trying to fix everything. Slow down and get curious. That sounds like great advice.

[B]

I'm fascinated by this idea that you've separated twice and then you somehow got back together. And I'm wondering in the spirit of this question of do we really change when you got back together, did you both make changes, or did you just get back together and say, you know what? We love each other so much that we're going to deal with whatever things we can't fix. And after the break, I want to hear what you think about that. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp.

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[D]

Well, it got to the point where we couldn't watch each other eat. We just made each other sick. You know, it was very. Who's here? Is this Gideon? Are you here? Come on in. We're doing.

[A]

Oh, it's the famous Gideon.

[D]

Be on camera. You don't worry they can't see you over there.

[A]

Okay.

[D]

I like to be on camera.

[B]

Oh, but Gideon, you're about to hear some stuff about your parents marriage.

[D]

Oh, yeah. This is first time for everything.

[A]

But how long had you been married?

[C]

At this point, 24.

[A]

A long time.

[C]

Okay.

[D]

Yeah, yeah. After the separation and then not being able to be apart from each other, failing at separating, we were separation failures. I just let it go for the most part. I mean, the things that really annoyed me, I just went, I can't change this person and she can't change me. And I would just say, this is who I am, God damn it, this is who I am. You know, I can't change it. I can't be who you wish I was. This is who I am. And when those separations have my recollection of. And that was the healing ointment.

[B]

It's interesting that you say you still have troubles. I think a lot of people imagine that they're going to get to a place in their marriage where they've solved their problems, they don't have troubles. And I'm curious, after 40 plus years, what are some of the troubles that you just say? You know what, I'm going to let that go.

[D]

Well, tell me what happened in the car today after being apart for two and a half months. I asked for a strawberry.

[C]

Oh, no. Okay. He has this habit which does drive me absolutely nuts. And it's very minor. I don't know why it annoys me. I think because there's an urgency to it when he needs to eat something. When he's driving, there's an urgency. It's like, you know, I had these little sucking candies from the show. So I Gave him one, gave him one. Gave him. It's fine. And then it's like, where's the strawberries? Can you unbuckle your seat belt and go in the back and get that plastic bag and just give me the strawberries? What else do we have? What else? I mean, do you have something crunchy? That used to be it.

[D]

Like, why couldn't you do it? Because you've been on the phone for almost the whole ride since we hadn't been together for two and a half months, and you're on the phone having to finish emails.

[C]

No, I wasn't on the phone. We listened to that podcast together that you found so fascinating.

[D]

Oh, at that point, you're right.

[C]

Jesus Christ.

[B]

And this is marriage.

[C]

I mean, yeah. I mean, I think the biggest difference is. This is a great example, actually. When we were, quote, engaged. I'm six years older than him. I was born by.

[D]

He says that twice.

[C]

Okay, it's still true. And we had an enormous fight in Los Angeles right before we were going to have this engagement party. Engagement party. And I called his cousin and who was having the party, hosting it. And I said, listen, we've got to cancel it. It's over. We're not getting married. We're not engaged. And she was like, oh, my God, Katherine, I've got all your family. My family? What do I. Well, you'll stop calling numbers and I'll call dubbers. And then I hear from the back room, honey, what. What are you wearing? To what? To our party? Darryl, I'll call you right back. And I hung up, and I went into the room and I said, what about that fight? And he said, it was just a fight that had never occurred to me. We grew up in a family that expressed themselves in kind of conflictual ways. My family had council meetings. How's everybody doing? Et cetera. Anger just terrified me. And he has been a very good educator for me over these 45 years that it is a human emotion. It doesn't mean the end of everything. It is not the kind of volcano that spews lava and gets you and dies. We do little things that annoy each other. I gave him a whole bag when we got home, and he was taking his nap of those sucking candies. As my apology, I gave him the one licorice one I found because that's his favorite.

[D]

But the greatest thing about us and the reason we're together, talking to you today, since April 16, 1978, is after, you know, the strawberry. And she can look at me and talk to Me in such a mean way. I've never seen her speak to any other human being on the planet. The way she talks to me, it's very sensitive, really. I have no skin. I really drives me crazy. And I said, well, that only took an hour and ten minutes after being away from each other for two and a half months. And then something happens with the strawberries, and we are laughing hysterically.

[A]

That's what comes through so much in your podcast, is that you're saved by the laughter and seeing the absurdity, and that's what dissolves the tension.

[C]

I'm going to say something else about those separations that you might disagree with. We'd been separated. This was the second time, and he needed some surgery. And, you know, it was horrible because I wasn't going with him, and the kids dressed up funny to take him. And I went anyway, you know, in the waiting room, and then I heard a loudspeaker's, you know, Mrs. Mandy Patink in there. And I go in, and he said in his haze, this is my wife. This is my one and only wife. This is my first wife. And. And I realized for me, as long as there's breath, there's possibility. That was, for me, the turning point where we were still breathing and we were still loving each other as much as we drove each other nuts. And it's also, we really are much better. I'm an enormously social person. I love people. That's my drug of choice. I have lots of friends, and we share some of them, but Mandy really likes solitude, which I can deal with periodically, you know, so we both accept those different things.

[D]

We have great friends, and there are watershed moments in our life. Right over on the couch, out of camera, is our friend Anton and Jenny, who are visiting us from England. And we were at a place in Colorado visiting each other years ago, and I was having troubles with things, not with Catherine and me, just other things. I was having problems. And it was a gorgeous day in the Colorado mountains, hiking and everything. And I'll never forget my friend Anton, who can hear me over here on the side, he said, and his English accent, which sounds better than anything that comes out of my mouth, he said, it's a beautiful day. You're with your friends, enjoy it. And I remember it to this day. I couldn't do it like that, but I never forgot him saying it as advice. It was like it was equal to my friend William Hurt, who I always knew as Bill. We went to school together at Juilliard, and when we had those Talk backs. You know, after we would do a project in a semicircle, the students and the teachers would say things to each other, and he would say, look, I'd love to do characters the way you do characters. He said, but for you, I wish that you would dig deeper. And it's been my goal as an actor for my whole life to try to do Bill's wishes for me. And it's been my goal from my friend Anton to try to remember, to enjoy the day. It's a gorgeous day. Let it go, let it go, let it go.

[B]

This is what I think is so appealing about your podcast and why you have such a following on social media, is that you're telling these stories, and in them are all of these nuggets. And I think the takeaways from what you just said are things like, be present. Appreciate what you have in front of you. Let go of some of the things that just aren't going to change, and maybe focus the lens on the things that you have as opposed to the things that maybe are problematic. They're so beautiful because they're real and they happened. And I think that when people look at your marriage, they think, oh, they have this perfect marriage. They've been married for 40, whatever years. And no, you separated twice. You've had lots of things you've had to contend with. You have fights about strawberries after not seeing each other for two and a half months. That's real life. And I think that's what we're all trying to do with these advice podcasts, is to guide people through life as it is and give people ideas about, here are some things that have worked for other people, and maybe they'll work for you.

[D]

Yes, I love that. And also, I think Mary said to us years ago, life is a messy thing. And my other therapist, who's with me now for many years, since 2006, he said, these troubles, these moments that you have where you feel you failed or you're beating yourself up or whatever, those difficult moments when you feel like you're going nuts, those are your gifts. Because when everything goes great, you do well, and this or that, they pat you on the back. Nothing happens when you struggle, when you're having a difficult time, that's when you grow. That's when you change. So think of those moments when you go, like, I don't know if I can take it anymore. That's one of the great gifts of a moment that you're being given.

[A]

You keep mentioning reframing, seeing something in a different light. Understanding this is going to help me grow. It's very helpful to see things in a way that reframes them in a much different light.

[C]

I think what you said about messy, you can adore each other one minute and drive each other crazy the next. You can walk out of the door and say, I'm going away. And then the next morning say, hey, how was your drive? We are messy. It's not a frightening thing to be messy. You know, chaos is different. Abuse is different. Character assassination is different. That's another thing Mary said, the difference between a healthy fight and character assassination, when you eviscerate somebody or you just say the action you just did is not okay.

[B]

We are having so much fun talking with you guys, and we know you have to go, but we have one more question that we're gonna leave our listeners with for next week and we wonder if you might have some quick thoughts. And we're gonna hear that question right after the break. This episode is sponsored by Tonal, the smart home gym that completely changed strength training and now they have reimagined Pilates just in time for the holidays.

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[A]

Okay, we're back. Here is the question that we will ponder in the next episode we heard from a listener who wants to be anonymous. And Mandy and Katherine, after you hear this voice note, we'd love to hear if you have some quick advice.

[E]

Hi Laurie and Gretchen, I need some advice regarding boundaries with my parents. I recently got married and I live across the country from my parents, whereas my husband's parents live about a 10 minute drive away from us, which is great. When I get to see my parents they typically will fly down to visit us and when they do I offer that they stay in our guest room since we have the extra space and I want to maximize the time that I get to spend with them because I know they miss me and I really do miss them. So I always want to have as much time with them as possible and I'm still in my 20s so they are recent empty nesters. However, my husband has expressed that it can be a lot when they stay for more than a long weekend and it can be overwhelming having them in such close quarters, which I completely understand. And I do feel what he feels. But for me, it's the kind of thing that I'm willing to put up with because it means I get to have this valuable time with my family. But I do want to be respectful of how my husband feels, and I know that he would rather that they stay in a hotel if it's going to be a certain length of time of a stay. How do I approach the subject with my parents when they're planning their next visit to come see us? It feels rude to ask that they stay in a hotel and unwelcoming. But at the end of the day, I do want to be on the same page and approach this issue as a team with my husband. But I'm just having trouble taking that step and communicating when I need to. Thank you.

[A]

Okay. Any thoughts?

[C]

My first question is how long? I mean, she said an extended weekend. So if her husband has trouble with her parents that live across the country, stay in a guest room. It's not as if they're in a couch in the living room. I don't know. I'm sympathetic for her. I mean, his parents are right there. They come and go all the time. He sees them all the time. I don't know what his relationship is with them, but I sort of empathize with her that she has a guest room. They come a couple times a year. And it would be pretty hard for me to say, please stay in a hotel.

[D]

I think it's about chemistry. I think it's individual. I think for some people, you know right away I could be around them forever. I never want them to leave. I love being with these people. And then others, we have somebody we met once and we refer to them as Mrs. X. Two hours too long. They just shut up and just drove a train. But like I said earlier, our friends from England are over here. We always stay at their house when we're in England, but we're honest with each other. First of all, we love them. The chemistry is great. But I'm honest. They're very social. Sometimes I like to go to social things. Sometimes I don't. Like when I was shooting Homeland and they had a party somewhere in England and I was alone and Catherine was in the States. They invited me to be with a bunch of their friends and I had a great time and I was Mr. Social. Other times I'm not. But I'm honest with my friends. If they're going to go to this or a that or an opera or dinner Sometimes I'll say, I don't want to go. And sometimes I do want to go because I'm comfortable with them, because I feel safe with them, because I trust them.

[B]

Mandy, if this were Catherine and she said to you, my parents are coming. I want them to stay with us. We have a guest room. If you felt overwhelmed by their presence, what would you do in that situation?

[D]

I'd ask them to stay in a hotel.

[B]

You would? And how would you manage that with Catherine?

[D]

I'd say, honey, listen, I love your parents, but I need my own space. And I'd want to get up in the night naked, go into the bathroom, and not feel that other people are listening to me, brush my teeth or go to the bathroom. I don't know when a mood's going to come on me. I'm a moody fellow, and I don't want to be witnessed by my friends and your parents and people that I care about. I have certain aspects of my personality that I want those aspects to remain private. Help me please keep my privacy. And she does. And there are times when we have people stay, and there are times when we say, we're all full of.

[A]

And, Catherine, what would you say to that?

[C]

Well, my parents died when I was 25, so I'm just very nostalgic, and I wish I could have had this argument with him, but I think there's usually a way where we can work out space, where he can have his private space and I can have friends visiting here.

[D]

My mother stayed in a hill.

[C]

Yes.

[D]

And she visited him when the kids were little. Awesome. And she came over because there was a bit of discomfort. We're happy with that.

[A]

Well, this is interesting. We're going to hear from listeners, and we will talk about it ourselves next week in the next episode. But you've articulated two sides very clearly, so thank you for that. Thank you so much. Thank you, Mandy. Thank you. Katherine.

[B]

Thank you so much for weighing in and helping us and our guests today. We really appreciate it. We want everybody to also listen to your new podcast. It's called Don't Listen to Us. It's so fun. We hope you all tune in, and we thank you for your honesty today.

[D]

Thank you. And if we ever need your help, we're hoping to get a twofer and a discount.

[A]

Oh, absolutely.

[C]

There you go.

[A]

Thank you so much.

[B]

Thanks so much.

[A]

Laura. That was so fun. I love talking to them.

[B]

That was. I loved how honest they are, and I think there were so many nuggets in there that we can take away from all of their experiences. That was great.

[A]

They say they have no advice to give but they have a lot of great advice to give. It's so fun to have them come on the show.

[B]

Yeah, it's great to learn from them and their experiences and we want to learn from your experiences. So since you asked askers we are heading into the holiday season so please send us your questions about navigating the upcoming holidays. We would love to hear what's on.

[A]

Your mind and also remember we are a new show. We so appreciate it if you take the time to rate review follow recommend. Word of mouth is the best. And remember whether this podcast changes your life or just makes you laugh, we're glad you're here.

[D]

Since you asked is for entertainment purposes only and isn't a substitute for professional advice. By sending us your question you're agreeing we may use it on the show and edit it for length or clarity.