Sinica Podcast: Jasmine Sun on Silicon Valley Through a Chinese Mirror
Host: Kaiser Kuo
Guest: Jasmine Sun (writer, podcaster, ex-Substack, Stanford grad)
Co-host: Fang Tianyu (new history of science Ph.D. student, Harvard)
Release Date: September 22, 2025
Episode Overview
In this episode, Kaiser Kuo sits down with Jasmine Sun, a Chinese-American writer and podcaster, to dissect her essay "America Against China Against America." Drawing inspiration from Wang Huning’s seminal travelogue, their conversation explores how observing China through American and diasporic eyes reveals not only China’s dramatic transformation but also evolving American anxieties, envies, and cultural self-reflections. With co-host Tianyu Fang, they discuss migration, technological culture, civic values, cross-cultural misunderstandings, and the shifting discourse about China in Silicon Valley.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
1. Introduction: Exploring the “Vibe Shift” in U.S.-China Perceptions
- Kaiser frames the conversation around the “vibe shift” in the American discussion of China—from negativity and fear, to a strange mix of envy and anxiety as China produces “abundance” (fast trains, thriving infrastructure, compelling consumer tech).
- Jasmine Sun is introduced as a thoughtful voice bridging these worlds, having recently traveled to China and written about her experiences.
“I think the attitude towards China has been less pure fear and derision and now maybe fear mixed with envy. I use the phrase China envy a lot.” — Jasmine Sun (10:57)
2. Backgrounds of the Guests
[04:57–08:47]
- Jasmine Sun: Focuses on the “anthropology of disruption”—studying how tech interfaces with culture, especially beyond Silicon Valley.
- Fang Tianyu: Tracing China’s computing and engineering culture—rooted in technocracy and the reform era. Both have experience in both U.S. and Chinese tech environments.
3. The “Vibe Shift” in Silicon Valley’s Attitude Toward China
[10:00–13:56]
- Jasmine and Tianyu both agree that there’s a significant change: China was once dismissed as unoriginal and “uninvestable”; now Chinese apps (eg. TikTok, Temu, Shein) have become surprising models and targets for imitation.
- “The fact that before the idea was China was copying everything the US does, and now every US consumer social company wants to copy TikTok's UI straight up…” — Jasmine Sun (13:12)
4. Diasporic Crossings and Migration Narratives
[15:03–18:24]
- Jasmine uses her family history—her grandmother’s migration from Indonesia to China (1950s), her mother’s immigration from China to the U.S. (1990s), and her own visits—to probe the shifting fortunes, “sacrifice/opportunity” duality of migration, and the psychological impact of seeing one’s home country surpass the adopted one.
- “In the past 10 or 15 years...for a middle class person in Shanghai versus a middle class person in Seattle, where my parents live, it is a better life in Shanghai. And China has surpassed and become the more developed country.” — Jasmine Sun (17:20)
5. Essay Framing: “America Against China Against America” & Wang Huning’s Mirror
[19:15–21:05]
- Jasmine structured her essay to mirror Wang Huning’s travelogue, invoking his response to American society to frame her own future-shock in China.
- Emphasizes that American writing on China often reveals American anxieties, not China’s realities:
“I tend to feel that most American writing on China is about Americans anyway, even if they don't say that.” — Jasmine Sun (19:45)
6. Technology: Everyday Abundance vs. Surveillance State
[21:56–26:01]
- Jasmine reflects on the double-edged sword of Chinese technological innovation—the “convenience and abundance” (cheap delivery, clean infrastructure, advanced apps), but also omnipresent state surveillance and censorship.
- Stories about facial recognition, public security, and the feeling of constraint as a writer.
“It is simultaneously, at least for me, it felt quite difficult to forget that China is a surveillance state... The level of monitoring was impossible to forget.” — Jasmine Sun (22:14)
- Kaiser’s anecdote about surveillance cameras in Beijing illustrates this theme with dark humor (25:50).
7. Comparing Pace of Change: San Francisco vs. Shanghai
[26:21–28:19]
- Jasmine contrasts San Francisco’s cultural dynamism but physical stasis with Shanghai’s relentless urban transformation—skylines, bridges, public parks.
“If I come back [to Shanghai] in two years, the skyline’s completely changed.” — Jasmine Sun (26:54)
8. DeepSeek and the Symbolism of Chinese Tech
[29:07–30:59]
- The rise of companies like DeepSeek is both a reality check and a source of anxiety/enchantment for Silicon Valley.
- “I don’t think that American labs took open source seriously until DeepSeek happened… most now estimate China is six months behind the US frontier, not years.” — Jasmine Sun (29:12)
9. Chinese Perceptions of U.S. Tech
[31:55–34:34]
- Chinese AI/software professionals still have Silicon Valley “envy” and respect, especially for elite talent, entrepreneurial culture, and investment environments.
- Chinese technologists often choose to migrate—for work or study—to the US, but a significant number opt to return for career or national pride.
10. Work Ethic, Ambition, and Nationalism in Chinese Tech
[34:34–39:46]
- Jasmine notes that some founders and engineers in strategic sectors (AI, manufacturing) exhibit strong “Team China” attitudes—motivated by a sense of national competition.
- “The sense of bullying is a word that I heard used a couple times by people. Chinese technologists are very aware that America is trying to slow China's technological advancement down.” — Jasmine Sun (35:45)
- Tianyu points out that U.S. start-up cultures rely more on “PR and advertising” and micro-ideological branding; whereas China discourages any sub-cults that challenge the party line.
11. Orientalism & “Involution” (Neijuan)
[40:40–45:24]
- Kaiser and Jasmine question whether concepts like “996” or “involution” are uniquely Chinese, or just universal market forces recast with exotic terms.
- Jasmine: “The more that I reflected on this, the more that I saw involution as frankly a quite useful term to describe certain types of competitive dynamics in the US and I'm sure in other places as well.” (43:31)
- Discussion of trends toward burnout among youth in both societies—the “run” mentality (逃离/“run away”) and media over-emphasis on certain voices.
12. Material Comfort, Liberalism, and Tradeoffs
[45:40–49:24]
- Jasmine and friends are “viscerally” impressed by China’s comforts (trains, lattes, clean streets), prompting serious reflection on what governments should prioritize: tangible improvements or liberal values?
- Many Americans, especially younger or disillusioned ones, may be increasingly willing to “trade down” some freedoms for quality of life.
13. Elasticity of Values: American Liberal Patriots in China
[49:24–52:32]
- Jasmine’s friend Clara, a white “liberal patriot,” is repeatedly stunned: “This isn’t supposed to work, but it does.” The Chinese state’s results-driven approach shakes her assumptions about process, rights, and outcomes.
14. Lessons for U.S. Cities: KPIs, Dashboards, and Bureaucracy
[52:33–56:06]
- Inspired by Chinese municipal dashboards and performance metrics (GDP, parks built, pollution scores), Jasmine wishes for more technocratic transparency and measurable goals in U.S. urban governance.
- “Chinese bureaucrats would make excellent growth PMs because they are so good at hitting their KPIs.” — Jasmine Sun (54:00)
15. Designing a Transformative Itinerary
[56:43–59:00]
- Jasmine recommends intention: Go beyond tourist sites, seek local interlocutors, tour factories, read deeply, and experience satellite cities/rural China for a fuller sense of change and continuity.
- “I have found that many people are willing to say hello if you simply send them a note on Substack and you're nice about it.” (57:05)
16. Reading as Essential Context
[59:52–61:45]
- Jasmine’s China trips are paired with a reading curriculum: Peter Hessler, Leslie Chang, Dan Wang, Yasheng Huang, Fukuyama—reflecting how narrative and history color perception.
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
- On U.S. Perceptions of China:
“It's impossible, I think, to continue in good faith—even for people who are hawks—the narrative that China cannot innovate.” — Jasmine Sun (13:12)
- On the “Mirror Effect” of Writing on China:
“Most American writing on China is about Americans anyway, even if they don't say that.” — Jasmine Sun (19:45)
- On State Surveillance:
“You have to do facial recognition just to buy bottled water at the vending machines… it's all woven in.” — Jasmine Sun (22:12)
- The Double-Edged Sword of Surveillance:
[Kaiser relates a story in Beijing where surveillance thwarts a scam in real time.] “Can you pull the surveillance footage?... No need, we were watching already.” — Kaiser Kuo (25:50)
- Comparing Cities:
“Nothing happens in San Francisco… Shanghai, if I come back in two years, skylines completely changed.” — Jasmine Sun (26:54)
- On DeepSeek’s Impact:
“I don’t think that American labs took open source seriously until DeepSeek happened… Now the estimates tend to be China’s about six months behind the U.S. frontier before, I think, American analysts would estimate two to three years.” — Jasmine Sun (29:12)
- On “996” and Involution:
“San Francisco literally just discovered 996 like last week. And so everybody in San Francisco has been talking about 996. And I'm like, you guys are very late.” — Jasmine Sun (43:51)
- On Technocratic Governance:
“We were imagining a dashboard that would say things like, what is the GDP of San Francisco?... There are all these issues that the public cares about, and there's really no way for us to know how it's going.” — Jasmine Sun (54:22)
Timestamps for Key Segments
- The “Vibe Shift” in U.S. Tech Circles: 10:00–13:56
- Generational Migration Reflections: 15:03–18:24
- Wang Huning and the American Mirror: 19:15–21:05
- China’s Surveillance and Abundance Debate: 21:56–26:01
- DeepSeek and Chinese AI’s Global Challenge: 29:07–30:59
- Chinese Views on Silicon Valley, Migration: 31:55–34:34
- National Pride and Tech Competition: 35:12–38:55
- “Involution” and Burnout—Orientalism or Universal?: 40:40–45:24
- Material vs. Liberal Tradeoffs: 45:40–49:24
- “This Isn’t Supposed to Work, But It Does”—Elasticities: 50:55–52:32
- Technocratic Metrics and Urban Dashboards: 52:33–56:06
- Crafting an Eye-Opening Trip Itinerary: 56:43–59:00
- Essential China Reading: 59:52–61:45
Recommendations Section
- Fang Tianyu:
- Mad Men (the TV series): “Think about the contrast: America’s creative, advertising-oriented elite versus China’s quietly industrious, experience-valuing elite.” (62:35)
- Jasmine Sun:
- Culinary: Eat Yunnan food (“the next big thing in America”) and jianbing crepes; embrace regional diversity in Chinese cuisine. (64:00)
- Kaiser Kuo:
- Books: “Anti-recommendation” of The Red and the Black (Stendhal).
- Positive: Fukuyama’s The Origins of Political Order & Political Order and Political Decay—“his effort to explain China” and the roots of political systems.
Closing Reflections
This episode serves as both travelogue and analytic meditation, using Jasmine Sun’s experiences, literary allusions, and Silicon Valley context to illuminate not just what’s happening in China—but how that transformation exposes the West’s own values and vulnerabilities. Listeners are challenged to go beyond stereotypes, reflect on the cultural elasticity of rights and convenience, and consider the importance of meeting everyday Chinese people and reading widely to break the mirror of self-confirming narratives.
Full Transcript, Jasmine’s Essay, and Further Resources available at senicapodcast.com/substack