Sinica Podcast – Podcast Golden Week: Peter Hessler on ChinaEconTalk
Date: October 8, 2019
Host: Jordan Schneider (of ChinaEconTalk, presented on Sinica)
Guest: Peter Hessler

Episode Overview

This special episode features acclaimed writer and New Yorker correspondent Peter Hessler, known for his immersive reportage on both China and Egypt. Interviewed by Jordan Schneider, Hessler discusses the impetus for his move from China to Egypt, explores the societal and structural contrasts between these two civilizations, and reflects on how his experiences have reshaped his understanding of revolution, governance, gender roles, and writing itself. Through vivid anecdotes and comparative analysis, Hessler offers a unique “China frame” for understanding Egypt’s tumultuous past decade, as explored in his book The Buried: An Archaeology of the Egyptian Revolution.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Move to Egypt? (02:32–06:02)

• Deliberate Departure: After a decade in China, Hessler and his wife Leslie Chang sought to write about a new place—not out of fatigue, but to expand their perspective.
• Choosing Egypt: They wanted a place with one primary language and fewer direct comparisons to China than, say, India. They considered Damascus, but by the time they were ready, the Arab Spring upheaval made Egypt the feasible option.
• “It was really sort of insane. We just bought a plane ticket and carried as much stuff as we could and came over there with these two babies.”
  — Peter Hessler (05:36)

2. Living Through Egypt’s Upheaval (06:02–10:02)

• Timing: Arriving in Egypt in October 2011, after the initial revolution, they found on-the-ground instability slowly escalating.
• Coping with Crisis: During the 2013 coup, discussions with their nanny, indicating the normalization of instability for many Egyptians.
• “To go through that experience, you realize that there are lots of people in the world who live with significant instability and they tend to respond to it remarkably calmly … things tend to be okay, basically.”
  — Peter Hessler (08:33)

3. Comparing Tiananmen and Tahrir (10:02–16:09)

• Professionalism of Repression: In Egypt, violence was often unprofessional and continuous, contrasting with China post-Tiananmen, where “they did train police in crowd control.”
• Revolutions and Coups: Both China and Egypt lacked civil society structures to support real transformation, making coups more likely than genuine revolutions.
• “You are still very many steps away from change … when you have these people on the street. Even if that leader is overthrown, as in the case of Mubarak, you’ve got a long way to go.”
  — Peter Hessler (13:32)

4. The “China Frame” in Egypt (16:09–18:43)

• Useful Comparative Lens: Hessler found his time in China essential to seeing Egypt outside the usual Western prism, less encumbered by colonial legacies or U.S.-centric narratives.
• “There are many things that I see sort of through a Chinese lens, and Leslie’s the same way. … I felt like it balanced the Western ideas to some degree.”
  — Peter Hessler (17:37)

5. Egyptian Perceptions of China (18:43–20:57)

• Positivity: Unlike regions where China’s presence provokes resentment, Egyptians regarded China and the Chinese positively, seeing them as “people who had their act together.”
• Identity: Hessler leveraged this positivity for smoother social interactions.

6. Chinese Lingerie Sellers in Upper Egypt (21:05–30:29)

• A Surreal Encounter: Hessler describes meeting a Chinese lingerie vendor in a remote southern Egyptian town, launching a wider investigation into this community.
• Explanation:
  • Egyptian marriage customs involve lavish lingerie buying as part of the dowry.
  • Gender norms prevent Egyptian women from running such shops, making Chinese (seen as ultimate outsiders and apolitical) ideal (if unlikely) vendors.
• “If I’m driving my car and I break down on the road, the first person who passes will stop and help. That would never happen in China.”
  — Chinese seller, quoted by Peter Hessler (29:20)

7. Work and Gender: Contrasting China and Egypt (31:00–37:12)

• Chinese Factory Couples: In Egypt, Chinese couples often ran lingerie shops together—rare for Egyptian norms.
• Egyptian Women’s Labor Limited: Employment seen as a temporary step, typically pre-marriage, in contrast to Chinese factory girls who use work as a liberating, transformative experience.
• “In a way, in China, I think this migration and young women working were, to some degree, a subversive act ... That would not happen in Egypt.”
  — Peter Hessler (35:13)

8. Geography, Neighbors, and Social Change (37:12–43:00)

• China’s Advantage: Proximity to successful East Asian economies (e.g., South Korea, Taiwan) fostered a sense of urgency and models for reform.
• Egypt’s Constraints: Surrounded by dysfunctional states and stuck in a “subsistence” mindset, lacking examples or impetus for radical change.
• Blame and Accountability: Egyptian leaders and society tend to blame outsiders—“Every fault, every problem is because of somebody else ... But it’s never us.” (41:54)

9. Religion, Social Structures, and Resistance to Change (46:32–51:41)

• Religion as an Obstacle: Practices such as female genital mutilation persist because they are seen as religious duties, unlike foot-binding in China, which was easier to eradicate for being non-religious.
• Passivity: Many Egyptians see their life situation as determined by God, contrasting with the restless, hustling energy of the Chinese.

10. Language Reform and Culture (51:52–57:16)

• Classical Arabic vs. Colloquial Chinese: Written Arabic remains disconnected from spoken Egyptian Arabic, limiting political expression, literacy, and social mobility—a contrast to the early 20th-century Chinese baihua (written vernacular) movement.
• Real-World Impact: Hessler describes how his friend Saeed, though illiterate, became semi-literate via texting in colloquial Arabic—a workaround that would parallel the Chinese switch to vernacular writing.

11. History, Identity, and National Narrative (57:16–64:38)

• Egypt’s Outsider-Constructed Past: Much of Egyptian history was written and categorized by foreigners, in contrast to Chinese, who have always named their own dynasties and maintained narrative continuity.
• Rulers: For centuries, Egypt was ruled by foreigners—Greeks, Romans, Ottomans, British—which, Hessler argues, helps explain modern Egyptians’ sense of historical disempowerment.

12. Governance and Everyday Bureaucracy (64:38–72:06)

• Clan Power vs. Party Power: In rural China, Communist Party trumps families; in Egypt, clans, tribes, and family networks run politics and society at the grassroots level.
• Bureaucratic Contrasts: Egypt’s state sector is massive but ineffective, supporting people with “face-to-face” systems and bribes, whereas China's bureaucracy, while also corrupt, is directive and capable of enforcing policy.

13. Writing Advice and Techniques (72:06–77:27)

• Observation and Detail: Hessler credits his background and years of reporting for his attention to telling detail.
• Patience is Key: Both in reporting and drafting—the best insights and images often surface late in the writing process.
• “It takes a long time for a writer to develop ... You have to be patient. You have to let that develop.”
  — Peter Hessler (74:42)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Leaving China:
  “It wasn’t because we were tired of China. We both enjoyed it up to the end of our time there, but we were a little concerned about just only writing about that part of the world. And, you know, I kind of wanted to establish to myself and also to the New Yorker that I could write about other places.” (03:13)
• On Revolution and Repression:
  “In Egypt, you sort of saw how much worse it could be if they keep doing this … totally unnecessary and really tragic.” (10:22)
• On Gender Divides:
  “For Egyptians, the family was the deep state, while some of the Chinese observers say that China had a real revolution … China went from a society where women bound their feet to women working thousands of miles from home in factories.” (36:29)
• On Religious Fatalism:
  “We often saw people who, that we would think oh my gosh, this guy should be pushing, you know, he should be innovating … but they would say, well this is what God has decided is appropriate for me, it’s a kind of passivity.” (48:42)
• On Language and Expression:
  “You’re obviously going to write more naturally in the language that you speak, and otherwise you’re kind of writing in a foreign language.” (53:59)
• On Historical Discontinuity:
  “Egypt, they didn’t even write their own history … the most important archaeology in the country has traditionally been done by Westerners, and it continues to be done by Westerners.” (57:52)
• On Writing:
  “Writing takes a lot of patience … it often just comes from staring at the page a long time or reworking things.” (74:42)

Key Segment Timestamps

• 02:32 – Why leave China for Egypt?
• 06:02 – Entering Egypt during political unrest
• 10:02 – Comparing Tiananmen and Tahrir
• 16:09 – The value of a “China frame”
• 18:43 – How Egyptians see China
• 21:05 – Meeting Chinese lingerie sellers in remote Egypt
• 31:00 – Gender, labor, and marriage: Egypt vs. China
• 37:12 – Geography and social change
• 46:32 – Religion, fatalism, and social inertia
• 51:52 – The problem with classical Arabic
• 57:16 – History, narrative, and identity
• 64:38 – Grassroots governance: Party vs. clan
• 69:04 – Bureaucracy and everyday corruption
• 72:06 – Writing as observation and discipline

Tone and Style

The conversation blends deep sociological insight, vivid on-the-ground reporting, and an appealing, anecdotal tone. Both Schneider and Hessler display a mix of curiosity, wry humor, and scholarly rigor, dissecting major historical currents through personal stories and sharp observation. Quotes are memorable for their candor, humility, and cross-cultural perspective.

For Listeners

Whether you’re interested in the dynamics of political revolution, cross-cultural exchange, development, or narrative writing, this episode presents a rare comparative meditation by an observer uniquely fluent in both China’s and Egypt’s worlds.

End of Summary