Sinica Podcast: Priority Pluralism – Rethinking Universal Values in U.S.-China Relations

Host: Kaiser Kuo
Date: September 16, 2024

Episode Overview

In this thought-provoking solo episode, Kaiser Kuo builds on a personal email exchange with Robert Daly (Director of the Kissinger Institute at the Wilson Center) to reflect on how Americans, and especially himself, apply different moral standards to the U.S. and China. He explores the tension between empathy and moral judgment in analyzing other societies, the philosophical underpinnings around universal values and relativism, and the implications for U.S. foreign policy, particularly toward China. Kuo proposes "priority pluralism" as a nuanced alternative to both moral universalism and absolutist relativism, advocating for recognition of historically contingent value systems.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Dilemma of Double Standards and Empathy (00:41–10:00)

• Kaiser reads and discusses Robert Daly’s challenging question: Why is he more anguished by American political failures than by Chinese ones, even while acknowledging the seriousness of both?
• Kuo candidly admits:

  "If this looks like a double standard, that's because it is. I very much hold the U.S. and China to different standards, and I owe a candid explanation of why, which I'll offer in due course." —Kaiser Kuo (06:31)

• He discusses the historical conditioning of societies and why he expects more from the U.S. which has had 250 years to develop liberal institutions, compared to China’s historical lack of a public sphere or political pluralism.

Notable Moment:
Kuo describes feeling less compunction criticizing his own country because:

"The US is my country, not China. And when it comes to China, I am, to borrow Robert's language, very much shaped by my status as a foreigner." (09:53)

2. Personal Identity and Criticism of China (10:01–16:30)

• Kuo reflects on how his Chinese (Han) heritage, upbringing, personal ties from years in China, and deep fascination with the country actually grant him more permission to critique China, rather than less.
• He contrasts the risks of criticizing government in the U.S. ("I risk nothing, and certainly not my freedom...") with the realities in China.

3. The Philosophical Middle Ground: Priority Pluralism (16:31–35:00)

• Kuo articulates his discomfort with both full-on moral universalism and relativism, insisting that societies’ moral norms are contextually developed but not all are equally valid.

• He discusses the philosophical challenge: If we accept relativism, how can we still condemn figures like Hitler or Pol Pot?

• He cites Isaiah Berlin’s value pluralism, David Wong’s “plural relativism,” and Kwame Anthony Appiah’s “rooted cosmopolitanism” as similar mid-path approaches:

  “There is a plurality of values which men can and do seek, and that these values differ. There is not an infinity of them... But finite, whatever it may be.” —Isaiah Berlin (22:43)

• Societies, Kuo argues, universally seek ends such as prosperity, security, stability, education, and freedom, but have differing historical priorities and face trade-offs (“Freedom and equality...are notoriously difficult to reconcile...” (27:14)).

4. U.S. Foreign Policy and Its Blind Spots (35:01–55:00)

• Kuo laments that American foreign policy tends to “take the maximalist position on universal values,” showing little flexibility for value pluralism, particularly with respect to China.
• He contrasts U.S. tolerance for India’s deviation from “universal” values versus China.
• Kuo highlights the “aspirational” nature of rights in China’s constitution—even if they’re only nominal—and notes China’s (and many societies’) tendency to prioritize economic rights and basic security over political freedoms.

Memorable Quote:

"I do believe China's prioritization of these values—poverty alleviation, basic economic security, social stability, education, healthcare—even over civil and political rights makes sense from the perspective of China's leaders, given where China was less than 50 years ago and China's historical experience even in living memory." (47:33)

• He challenges the “authoritarian teleology” that assumes Chinese reforms must serve only to perpetuate Communist Party power.

5. “Engagement” and Change in China (55:01–1:04:30)

• Kuo critiques two camps of China engagement skeptics: those who see U.S. efforts as arrogant moralizing, and those who claim engagement “failed” because China didn’t liberalize enough.
• He argues that change in China, while slow, is real and historically contingent:

  "It would be hard for anyone to look at China in the 1970s and look at it today...and not conclude that China had become a lot more like us—a consumerist, technologically advanced, market-driven society..." (1:01:05)

6. The Weight of History, Cultural Inertia, and Practical Policy (1:04:31–end)

• Using examples like the development of the rule of law in the West and China’s relative isolation and turmoil, Kuo argues that historical “gestation periods” matter for value development.
• He advocates for an American foreign policy that respects other countries’ value priorities and fosters gradual change:

  "Engagement was not aimed at making China more like us, but at entangling China in webs of mutually beneficial interdependencies..." (59:54)

• He urges recognition of how the U.S. already practices a kind of pluralism domestically (e.g., the Establishment Clause, respect for historical inequalities among Black and Indigenous Americans), and calls for similar humility in foreign policy.

Notable Quotes & Moments

• Moral Intuition and Critique:

  "Somewhere in me is this moral intuition that in most circumstances we all should feel less compunction about criticizing our own countries than we might about criticizing another, with exceptions for situations of war or conspicuous atrocity." —Kaiser Kuo (10:42)

• Philosophy of Pluralism:

  "There is a plurality of values which men can and do seek, and that these values differ. There is not an infinity of them... But finite, whatever it may be." —Isaiah Berlin, quoted by Kaiser (22:43)

• On Engagement’s Value:

  "It would be hard for anyone to look at China in the 1970s and look at it today … and not conclude that China had become a lot more like us, a consumerist, technologically advanced, market driven society of relative material abundance..." —Kaiser Kuo (1:01:05)

• On Policy Implications:

  "I would like to see an American foreign policy that recognizes and respects national diversity in prioritization and that aims to create conditions where other nations, China in this case, are able to make their way down their lists to get the things we prioritize." —Kaiser Kuo (53:11)

• Churchill Wisdom:
  Kuo shares a Churchill quote (as relayed by Robert Daly):

  “Those who are prone by temperament and character to seek sharp and clear cut solutions of difficult and obscure problems, who are ready to fight whenever some challenge comes from a foreign power, have not always been right... religion and virtue alike lend their sanctions to meekness and humility...” (1:11:18)

Important Timestamps

• 00:41 – Introduction of Robert Daly’s question and discussion of empathy vs. moral judgment
• 06:31 – Kuo admits holding the U.S. and China to different standards
• 10:01 – The impact of personal identity and criticism
• 22:43 – Philosophical underpinnings: Berlin’s value pluralism
• 27:14 – The challenge of reconciling freedom and equality
• 35:01 – Analysis of U.S. foreign policy and criticism of China
• 47:33 – China’s priorities from a historical lens
• 53:11 – Kuo’s recommendations for American foreign policy
• 59:54 – Rethinking the purpose of “engagement”
• 1:01:05 – Evidence of China’s transformation
• 1:11:18 – Churchill quote on patience and humility in foreign policy

Concluding Thoughts

Kuo’s nuanced stance—advocating neither for blanket relativism nor rigid universalism, but for an evolving, context-sensitive “priority pluralism”—is a thoughtful challenge to prevailing U.S. foreign policy dogmas. Drawing on personal experience, historical perspective, and contemporary philosophy, he encourages listeners (and policymakers) to embrace humility, empathy, and a genuine willingness to understand historical context in cross-cultural evaluation and dialogue.

Recommended for:
Anyone interested in moral philosophy, U.S.-China relations, foreign policy, and the persistent struggle between values, history, and politics in a changing world.