Sinica Comes Roaring Back in the Year of the Dragon: A Chat with Jeremy Goldkorn

Date: February 15, 2024
Host: Kaiser Kuo
Guest: Jeremy Goldkorn
Podcast: Sinica Podcast

Overview

This episode marks Sinica’s return for the Year of the Dragon. Host Kaiser Kuo welcomes his old friend and co-founder Jeremy Goldkorn for a wide-ranging, introspective conversation. Together, they reflect on the history and legacy of the Sinica Podcast, their years at the China Project (formerly SupChina), and the transformation of China and China-watching since the late 1990s. The episode is warm, self-aware, and shot through with humor, providing listeners with both a behind-the-scenes look at the life of two veteran "China hands" and sharp insight into China’s recent socio-political evolution.

Episode Highlights & Key Discussion Points

1. Sinica's Return and New Directions

• Kaiser shares plans for Sinica in the new year, including an intention to focus less on responding to the news cycle and more on deep-dive topics and big questions.

  "Even though this is going to remain a current affairs program, I am going to try not to let the news cycle dictate topics too much." (04:16)

• Jeremy will continue to make occasional appearances, while launching into other projects of his own.

2. Looking Back: Origins of Sinica and the China Project

• They recall meeting in Beijing in the late '90s:

  "You were a famous rock star with Tang Dynasty. I was a fresh-faced editor..." (05:51)

• Sinica's First Episode:
  • April 2, 2010, with Bill Bishop on Google's pullout from China. Format has changed little since those early days.
  • The transition from a hobby to a network under SupChina/China Project in 2016.
• Kaiser recounts the fateful meeting with SupChina’s founders and how Sinica got acquired:

  "Within a week we had a deal. It was nuts." (11:00)

3. Reflections and Regrets

• Pride in Editorial Range & Overton Window Expansion:

  • Jeremy emphasizes Sinica and the China Project’s unique role in broadening the discourse on China:

    "We made people who don’t generally listen to views sympathetic of China listen to views sympathetic to China, and we made people who don’t usually listen to views very critical of China listen to views that were very critical of China." (15:03)

  • Highlights include expanded podcasts and diverse contributors, reporting on LGBTQ and youth culture, China’s relations with less-covered countries, and nuanced, fact-based coverage of Xinjiang.

• Grueling Nature of Media Startups:

  • Jeremy describes the relentless pace:

    "A daily deadline is a bitch. It's the work of Sisyphus, you know?" (20:46)

• Division of Labor and Editorial Balances:

  • Kaiser: "You weren’t able to ever get off... what we internally were calling the editorial hamster wheel." (19:59)

4. Editorial Differences and the "Panda Hugger" vs "Dragon Slayer" Dynamic

• The two co-founders reflect on their contrasting reflexes:

  • Kaiser’s first instinct is empathetic; Jeremy’s is critical (22:01–23:17).
  • Both acknowledge their positions shift depending on the context, serving as needed contrarians.

    "I end up sounding a lot more like you, channel my inner Jeremy Goldkorn..." (23:53)

• The necessity of reassessing assumptions about China and being intellectually flexible.

  "To understand China... you need something like the scientific method. You need to be able to constantly reassess your ideas and sometimes change your mind about things." (24:21)

5. Jeremy Goldkorn’s Media Adventures in China: The "Feral Sinologist"

• Jeremy recounts his trajectory through various Beijing media startups:
  1. Beijing Scene (1997–2000)
  2. Phoenix I in Silicon Valley
  3. Listings mag "R" (became TimeOut Beijing)
  4. Design and advertising firm (hated it)
  5. Dunwei.org—translating and commenting on Chinese media, then research and video production (e.g., Hard Hat Show, Sexy Beijing)
• Key quote:

  "Any idiot can start a website… It was that easy." (32:41)

• Shares stories of entrepreneurial grind, near poverty, and the excitement of Beijing’s untamed media environment.

6. The Shifting Mood in China – Causes of Change Post-2008

• Discussion of the significant changes in China’s attitude and internal repression after 2008–2012.
• Key factors identified:
  • The 2003 Iraq War—“America looked pretty dumb,” a hit to U.S. soft power.
  • 2008 Beijing Olympics and the GFC—Chinese pride and questioning of the West.
  • Internet-fueled protests (Iran, Xinjiang, Arab Spring) heightened Party paranoia.
  • Jasmine Revolution fears in 2011 and the blocking of websites.
  • "Ten grave problems" essay and Xi Jinping’s anti-corruption, "lock-down" approach.
  • The loss of power fragmentation and the rise of centralization.

    "It felt like the start of something." (40:16)

• Nuanced take on power:

  "There was almost a kind of separation of powers...you could play one warlord against the other." (48:22)

7. How China Changed the Hosts (and Vice Versa)

• Kaiser and Jeremy reflect on how their political views changed in China:
  • Kaiser moved from a left-leaning background to supporting market reformers and back.
  • Jeremy’s skepticism of state interference solidified but recognizes regulatory necessity.

8. On the Making of a "China Watcher" and the Value of Immersion

• Qualities for a good analyst:
  • For outsiders: linguistic, cultural, and historical immersion is essential.
  • For Chinese analysts: ability to explain for a foreign audience and recognize the very different worldview.
• The importance of "country feel"—intuition formed through immersion and experience; declining with fewer foreigners now in China.

9. "Chestnuts" About Chinese Mentality and Modernization

• Andrew Batson’s observation: “Chinese people have this fundamental belief that they not only can be the best in any given field...but that they should be the best.” (56:22)
• The difference between American (universalist) and Chinese (particularist) exceptionalism.
• The impact of compressed modernization; the “Tom Hanks in Big” analogy for China’s developmental leap with lingering adolescent insecurities.

  "They have basically never known a time where improvements in their technological lives and improvements in their other lives...haven’t improved in lockstep." (59:57)

10. Challenges of Analysis and Self-Awareness

• Warning against falling into unshakable pro/anti-China camps.
  • "You get people who can't hear the word China without saying terrible things about it." (64:41)
• Both admit to their own cognitive reflexes, and the ongoing struggle for balance and honesty.

11. Advice for the Next Generation of "China Hands"

• Kaiser’s cognitive advice: embrace ambiguity, humility, "country feel," and skepticism of grand pronouncements.
• Jeremy’s practical advice: "You probably won’t be able to make much money out of it, so you better make sure that you’re interested…" (68:58)
• Both note the shift—far fewer foreigners now study/live in China.

12. Generational Reflections: The "Feral Sinologists"

• The pre-2008 "China watcher" cohort were independent, driven by oddity and curiosity rather than glamour; able to immerse deeply.

  "You could just go to China and get a job teaching English and teach yourself Chinese in a dormitory and like, just kind of live in China and study China in the field." (73:01)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On broadening the discourse:

  "We made people who don’t generally listen to views sympathetic of China listen to views sympathetic to China, and we made people who don’t usually listen to views very critical of China listen to views that were very critical of China." — Jeremy Goldkorn (15:03)

• On the pain of daily grind in media startups:

  "A daily deadline is a bitch. It's the work of Sisyphus, you know?" — Jeremy Goldkorn (20:46)

• On their editorial differences:

  "Your first instinct will be to look at it from a sympathetic point of view." "Empathetic, let’s call it empathetic" "...my first instinct...has been to look at it from a critical point of view." — Jeremy & Kaiser (22:01–22:32)

• On the Beijing of the ‘00s:

  "There wasn’t anyone to kind of do a reality check, tell you ‘don’t quit your day job’...you could just kind of go for it." — Kaiser Kuo (36:41)

• On compressed modernization:

  "If you don’t understand Chinese food, you can’t…like the obsession with food…and how good it is. If you don’t understand those, then you…have no way of understanding China." — Jeremy Goldkorn (58:27)

• On the changing ‘China hand’ generation:

  "Certainly in the 90s and early 2000s, the average American...thought you were a complete oddball if you chose to go to China." — Jeremy Goldkorn (71:48)

Timestamps for Important Segments

| Timestamp | Segment/Topic | |-----------|---------------| | 00:53 | Sinica’s new year, Kaiser’s thanks, intro to Jeremy | | 05:18 | Wrapping up China Project: origins, regrets, and pride | | 07:41 | The first Sinica episode and its evolution | | 12:20 | Sinica’s acquisition: from hobby to career, China Project years | | 15:02 | Editorial accomplishments and broadening the conversation | | 19:59 | Grind of running a media startup, editorial “hamster wheel” | | 22:01 | Panda huggers, dragon slayers, editorial styles | | 27:47 | Jeremy’s media career: Beijing Scene, Dunwei, etc. | | 36:41 | The entrepreneurial, wild Beijing of the 2000s | | 38:23 | Causes and timeline of China’s post-2008 change | | 48:10 | Systemic and political causes of party hardening | | 51:16 | How China changed their politics and vice versa | | 53:32 | What makes a good China analyst or “watcher” | | 56:22 | Chinese exceptionalism, Batson’s “should be the best” theory | | 59:57 | Compressed modernization and its social effects | | 64:41 | Dangers of ideological camps and the need for self-awareness | | 68:58 | Career advice for would-be China hands | | 71:36 | What shaped their China-watcher "generation" | | 79:27 | Recommendations section: ChinaFile, "Ghosts of Evolution," more |

Recommendations

Jeremy Goldkorn

• ChinaFile (chinaphile.com): Shout out to Susie Jakes and the editorial team.
• Book: The Ghosts of Evolution by Connie Barlow

  Explores evolutionary anachronisms in nature, e.g., fruits and trees whose purpose vanished with extinct megafauna.

Kaiser Kuo

• Family Memoir: Ma in All Caps by Jay Kuo (and the accompanying audiobook narrated by Kaiser himself)
• Historical Novels: Arturo Pérez-Reverte’s Alatriste series—gritty adventure set in Spain’s golden age.

Episode Tone & Style

The episode is relaxed, thoughtful, and full of self-deprecating wit. Kaiser and Jeremy’s easy rapport brings out both nostalgia and candor, offering wisdom that’s especially valuable to aspiring China-watchers and anyone interested in the intersection of media, politics, and culture in contemporary China.

This summary is designed to give those who haven’t yet listened a rich sense of the episode’s substance, humor, and insight.