Sinica Podcast Turns 10 – Anniversary Special

Podcast: Sinica Podcast
Host: Kaiser Kuo
Co-host: Jeremy Goldkorn
Date: April 23, 2020
Episode Theme: Celebrating a decade of thoughtful discussion on China; reflecting on changes in China, the podcast itself, and China-watching over the last ten years, with substantial audience Q&A.

Episode Overview

Sinica celebrates its ten-year anniversary with an unscripted, interactive episode. Kaiser Kuo and Jeremy Goldkorn reminisce about the show’s origins, reflect on how China, journalism, and China-watching have evolved, and engage candidly with audience questions on diplomacy, nationalism, reporting, and more. The hosts maintain their trademark mix of wit, skepticism, and nuanced insight on all things China and the West.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Sinica’s Origins and Evolution

• Beginnings in Beijing (00:54):
  • The show started in 2010 in a humble, beer-stocked studio at Pop-Up Chinese, thanks to Dave Lancashire’s generosity.
  • Initial focus: "Strictly an amateur affair," aiming to bring together friends, journalists, and thinkers for China-centered talks. The vibe was informal, with little expectation for influence or world-changing impact.
    Quote:
    “We just wanted to get together once a week and drink a lot of beer with interesting people.” — Jeremy Goldkorn [25:38]
• Shift to Professional Media (02:05 / 03:37):
  • Transitioned from amateur to more professional production with SupChina, reflecting the increasing global relevance of China.

2. Changing China and China-Watching

• Epochal Changes (04:19):
  • The first episode coincided with Google's China pullout—seen as the end of hope for Western internet companies in China.
  • Global awareness: In 2010, few outside expert circles cared much about China; now, "from Nairobi to Nashville," everyone has an opinion.
• Evolution of Journalism (07:38):
  • Notable improvement in the quality and depth of foreign journalism on China, including more language-proficient and locally-knowledgeable correspondents.
  • Critique: Coverage still leans towards "Big China, Bad China, and Weird China." (08:54)

3. Media Representation and Structural Bias

• Problematic Narratives (08:54):
  • Jamil Anderlini’s paradigm: Media tends to frame China as big, bad, or weird, reinforcing its "otherness."
  • COVID-19 coverage exposed limitations: Western reporting focused on regime type rather than public health science, leading to complacency.
    Quote:
    "This disease has revealed very much the shortcoming of that way of thinking, of sort of the othering of China." — Jeremy Goldkorn [10:03]
• Structural Challenges (14:09):
  • Few science-savvy China correspondents; most focus on politics, causing gaps in coverage of Chinese scientific and social realities.

4. Reflections on the Podcast’s Mission

• Aims and Achievements (25:25):
  • No grand mission at inception—just curiosity and fun. Over time, recognized their role in shaping English-language understanding of China, but regret not reaching a broader mainstream audience.
  • Hopeful that growing global interconnectivity and crises like COVID-19 will boost wider interest.
  • Quote:
    “It would be nice if we could get bigger… maybe COVID-19 might even be a tipping point." — Jeremy Goldkorn [26:57]

5. Specialization vs. Holism in China Studies

• Rise of Specialization (27:16):
  • Noted decline of generalists/area studies, with more narrowly trained analysts (Q from Jude Blanchette).
  • Kaiser praises holistic and historical approaches:
    “Anyone who’s actually in a discipline, take an anthropology class, take a class outside of it… history weaves them all together.” [29:12]
• Recommendation: Study Chinese and Western history for true perspective; understand how Chinese people view the world.

6. Social Media's Dual Edge

• Impact on China-watching (29:42):
  • Social media democratized access—more voices, less gatekeeping—but also more noise and "toxic" takes, especially on Twitter.
  • Facebook communities can foster more civil, substantive debate (with moderation).

7. Quality English- and Chinese-Language Sources

• Recommendations (37:43):
  • Chinese: Caixin—“a media company with integrity.”
  • English: Major American outlets, Guardian, SCMP (praised for quality, even post-Jack Ma ownership), and Weibo to track Chinese public discourse (noting censorship and nuance needed).
  • SubChina also maintains a sources list for English-language China news.

8. Dealing with Negative Coverage & Rising Hostility

• Superficial coverage & countering Sinophobia (41:15):
  • US media & politics tend to oversimplify; balancing nuance is hard, especially for raising bicultural children.
  • Elections & leadership matter: Strong belief that US-China tone will change under more moderate, knowledgeable advisors.

9. Nationalism in China under Xi Jinping

• Cause or effect? (45:54):
  • Xi both responds to and amplifies societal nationalism; roots lie in previous leaders' failures and the need for centralized control.
  • The Party has leaned on nationalism as a tool for legitimacy, with both reasonable and dangerous facets.

10. Comparisons: 1999 Embassy Bombing vs. COVID-19

• Different information environments (54:06):
  • Then: Fewer sources, limited internet, brief wave of anti-Americanism.
  • Now: Government can instantaneously mobilize opinion; deeper distrust, fewer countervailing pro-Western "ballast" sentiments.
  • COVID-19 has a more pervasive and personal impact, leading to more widespread resentment—and, perhaps, schadenfreude.

11. The Problem of Representing Chinese Public Opinion

• Audience Q&A (59:25):
  • Polling does exist but is limited. Robust debate in academia about methodologies.
  • English-language opinion pieces over-represent extremes—dissidents or apologists—neglecting China’s “David Brooks” moderates.
  • Resources: “Reading the China Dream” and “Chinese Storytellers” collective for more nuanced perspectives.

12. Soft Power and Cultural Influence

• Will China have a Korean/Japanese wave? (66:24):
  • No: Authentic soft power arises from uncontrolled grassroots creativity, not top-down government campaigns. COVID-19’s impact on China’s global image is mixed, with some diplomatic gains but also backlash.
  • Film/music: Still little international traction compared to South Korea or Japan.

13. People-to-People Diplomacy and Academic Exchange

• Growing challenges (77:22):
  • Suspicion growing in both US and Europe; government hostility impeding grassroots relationships.
  • Academic and journalistic exchange shrinking, partly due to China’s more repressive policies.

14. US-China Relations: The Road Ahead

• Prospects (100:51):
  • No going back to the old days. Hope that hitting "rock bottom" in decoupling/economic pain will reset expectations and revive pragmatism.
  • Both nations must engage in self-reflection and take shared responsibility for their relationship:
    “We have a terrible inability to exercise what’s called ‘security dilemma sensibility’. We don’t understand what our behavior looks like from across the table.” — Kaiser Kuo [98:47]

15. Life in China: The Good and the Bad

• Would Kaiser & Jeremy move back? (88:49):

  • Kaiser: Maybe (if the US continues to deteriorate).
  • Jeremy: Unlikely—misses the old openness, notes property and cost-of-living issues.

• What gives you hope about China? (92:10):

  • “Entrepreneurial energy… ability to maintain a kind of optimistic worldview no matter what is hitting the farm.” — Jeremy Goldkorn [92:54]
  • Admiration for Chinese resilience, optimism, and “asabiyya” (social cohesion).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On mission:
  “We just wanted to make a podcast about China because no one else was doing it at the time.” — Jeremy [25:32]
• On media coverage:
  “There are three China stories people are interested in: Big China, Bad China, and Weird China.” — Jamil Anderlini, relayed by Jeremy [08:54]
• On the evolution of US-China relations:
  “The whole 10 years that we've been doing this podcast is like watching my parents fight for 10 goddamn years.” — Kaiser [82:35]
• On the hope for the future:
  “China is a country with a culture that is in some ways set up for success in adversity.” — Jeremy [94:29]
• On people-to-people diplomacy:
  “When we started to be able to, like, stand nose to nose, really, with Chinese people, it turns out we don't see eye to eye.” — Kaiser [78:33]
• On the power and limits of social media:
  “A lot of junk out there and noise and stupid opinions… the level of stupid is very deep right now.” — Jeremy [32:22]
• Closing camaraderie:
  “Jeremy, you're one of my best friends … it's just been a total joy working with you.” — Kaiser [104:52]

Timestamps for Important Segments

| Time | Content/Topic | |--------|------------------------------------------------| | 00:54 | Sinica’s beginnings, the Pop-Up Chinese studio | | 04:18 | 2010’s climate: Google pullout, party changes | | 08:54 | Media tropes on China; “Big, Bad, Weird” | | 14:09 | Structural flaws in China reporting | | 25:25 | Podcast’s purpose and audience | | 27:16 | Specialization vs. holistic area studies | | 29:42 | Social media’s impact on China-watching | | 37:43 | Best China-related news sources | | 41:15 | Countering superficial/negative US coverage | | 45:54 | Is nationalism Xi's cause or effect? | | 54:06 | 1999 Belgrade Comparison vs. COVID xenophobia | | 59:25 | How do we know what Chinese people think? | | 66:24 | Chinese soft power: music, film, pop culture | | 77:22 | People-to-people diplomacy & exchange | | 92:10 | What gives you hope about China? | | 100:51 | Positive scenarios for the US-China relationship| | 104:32 | 10-year partnership appreciation, recommendations| | 109:17 | Final recommendations and closing comments |

Resource Recommendations & Further Reading

• Books & Essays:

  • "Superpower Interrupted: The Chinese History of the World" by Michael Schuman [35:14]
  • “Reading the China Dream” (Website) [63:07]
  • "Fearing for My Mother in Wuhan: Facing a New Sinophobia in the US" by Xiao Jiwei, NYRB [105:41]
  • Adam Tooze essay on COVID-19 economics, LRB [106:21]
  • "Will China Save the Planet?" by Barbara Finamore [84:37]
  • "My family survived the lockdown in Wuhan. Now it's my turn in New York" by Yang Zi [108:51]

• Podcasts:

  • Recent Sinica episodes on China’s climate role, with Alex Wang and Barbara Finamore [84:37]
  • Sinica episode with Neil Thomas on Chinese public opinion polling [60:07]

Final Thoughts

Sinica’s 10-year mark is an occasion for both pride and sober reflection. While the China-watching world has become more professional and complex, the same entrenched narrative biases, structural challenges, and growing global hostilities remain. Yet at its core, the Sinica Podcast persists as an open, self-questioning forum—a “beer with friends” reflexivity that has, by design or accident, made it an indispensable channel for nuanced, grounded, and democratic conversation about the world’s most consequential country.

Closing Quote:
“We’re going to keep making these shows.” — Jeremy Goldkorn [109:48]