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The Symbolism of the Flying Tigers: Peking University's Wang Dong on the American Volunteer Group and its Historical and Diplomatic Usages
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- [00:00]
A
Foreign welcome to the Seneca Podcast, a weekly discussion of current affairs in China. In this program, we'll look at books, ideas, new research, intellectual currents, and cultural trends that can help us better understand what's happening in China's politics, foreign relations, economics and society. Join me each week for in depth conversations that shed more light on and bring less heat to how we think and talk about China. I'm Kaiser Guo, coming to you this week from Beida Peking University in Beijing, my favorite city in the world. Sinica is supported this year by the center for East Asian Studies at the University of Wisconsin, Madison, a national resource center for the study of East Asia. The Seneca Podcast will remain free, but if you work for an organization that believes in what I'm doing with the show and with the newsletter, please consider lending your support. You can get me, as always, @sinicapodmail.com and listeners, please support my work by becoming a paying subscriber@cinecapodcast.com youm will enjoy, in addition to the podcast, the complete transcript of the show, essays for me, as well as writings and podcasts from some of your favorite China focused columnists and commentators. And of course, the knowledge that you are helping me do what I honestly believe is very important work. So do check out the page and see all that's on offer and consider helping me out we're going to turn today to a story from, well, the darkest days of the Second World War, one that has echoed through generations of both Chinese and Americans. The story of the Flying Tiger is the Fei Hudui, the American volunteer group of pilots who came to China even before the United States entered the war after Pearl harbor, and who became legends for their exploits in the skies over Burma or over Yunnan and beyond. Their shark toothed P40s and their daring tactics not only gave badly needed help to China's defenses, but also gave symbolic proof that China was not alone in its struggle. Now, for decades, of course, the Flying Tigers have been invoked as a touchstone in US China relations, a reminder of a time when our countries were allies bound by a common purpose. From wartime propaganda to contemporary statecraft, their story has been retold, memorialized and sometimes mythologized. My own father, who spent his childhood in Chongqing, insisted to me that as a boy he watched dogfights between what he called the Flying Tigers and Japanese planes over the skies of Chongqing, and I never quite had the heart to tell him that actually the Flying Tigers themselves never fought in Chongqing, but there were a lot of Douglas planes that had The Flying Tiger, sort of shark's tooth emblem painted on their nose. So you can see how quickly this whole idea became mythologized. Beyond the legend, of course, lies a fascinating question. How does this memory matter today? What does it mean when Chinese and American leaders or civic groups speak of the Flying Tiger's spirit? And how might we understand this legacy in the context of present day US China relations which are obviously very different now from where they were during the war? Now, I am delighted to have with me someone who, who has thought and written extensively about precisely this question. My guest today is Professor Wang Dong, who earned his PhD from UCLA and is a professor at the School of International Studies at Peking University where he also serves as Deputy Director and Executive Director of the Office for Humanities and Social Sciences and the Institute for Global Cooperation and Understanding. Professor Huang's scholarship and public commentary focus on US China relations, Cold War history and and the uses of historical memory in diplomacy. He has been an especially thoughtful voice in connecting the Flying Tiger's legacy with today's efforts to stabilize and strengthen the people to people ties between the two countries. Professor Huang, welcome to Seneca.
- [03:53]
B
Thank you. Thank you, Kaiser.
- [03:55]
A
So, with the anniversary of the Japanese center just passed, having done the parade and everything, tell us how the Flying Tigers have been used as an emblem in public diplomacy and in civil society exchange. What makes this particular story so resonant among so many other stories of Sino American wartime connections as a vehicle for normative outreach or even for soft power.
- [04:21]
B
The Flying Tigers remain one of the most potent symbols of Sino American friendship. Their story is commemorated through ceremonies, museum partnerships and official speeches that highlight the sacrifices made on both sides and cooperation against one common enemy. But the story is so resonant because it exists not only in official exchanges and memorials, but also exists on a level of civil engagement that has lasting cultural outreaches. It exists in children's books, movies, novels and so on. Altruism, personal sacrifice and perseverance, as well as the daring aerial battles you just mentioned. Some of that lent cinematic force to the tale and the Chinese people's genuine gratitude towards this friendship made this wartime memory into an emotional engagement. And this story, also delivered deeply connects with individuals through a clear good versus evil moral framework that both nations can celebrate, enabling public diplomacy and civil society. Exchanges that resonate far beyond the anniversary of Japan's surrender.
- [05:37]
A
Yeah, yeah, tell me. I mean, you say it's got this resonant emotional appeal. It obviously does. I mean, there are a lot of sort of heroics, dog fights, there have been television shows and movies about them in the United States. I'm more curious in China how they've been depicted. You mentioned children's books and things like that. What are some examples of the way that the Flying Tigers are talked about in Chinese popular culture?
- [06:03]
B
I think there is. The Flying Tiger spirit has been celebrated also in the Chinese historical narrative about AVGs. So the flying Tiger spirit, I think, functions more as a moral narrative of Trans Pacific solidarity. Historically, it is a small mercenary unit contracted by the Chinese Nationalist government, plagued by logistical constraints, uneven training, and complicated politics. The narrative, however, highlights voluntary sacrifice, cross cultural friendship, and a sense of shared destiny long before the United States formally entered the war. So in Chinese discourse, this becomes proof that foreigners recognize Chinese struggle against aggression and chose to help. In US Rhetoric, it becomes a parable of individual freedom and humanitarian duty. However, I do not think there is also, some people would say, discrepancy between historical fact and narrative, but I don't think such discrepancy is in any way negative because real sacrifices are made and real friendship is built. It embodies parties of some cooperation without touching present flashpoints. At the same time, such abstraction is powerful and helpful. It is a precedent for constructive relations that could be sincerely recognized by Chinese and Americans and mobilized whenever the two sides seek common ground.
- [07:46]
A
So, Professor Wang, when people invoke the Flying Tigers today, especially when China brings up the Flying Tigers, who tends to be the primary audience? Is it domestic Chinese audiences? Is it the Chinese diaspora? Maybe. Is it US civic groups? Or is it the American state? Is it the US Government? Who is the. What's the intended messaging for the intended audience?
- [08:11]
B
Well, I think this is a very interesting question. I think even though different people, diplomats, or heritage groups could adjust the framing accordingly toward different audiences to deliver different messages, I think the invocation of Flying Tigers in hearing actually carries multiple layers of meanings to different audiences. For instance, for domestic Chinese, the story reinforces national resilience and international friendship, demonstrating that China's anti Germany war has won genuine admiration abroad. And for the Chinese diaspora, you also mentioned that it is a reminder that overseas Chinese communities can embody both patriotic pride and global connectedness. And for US civic groups and veteran organizations, the message could be shared sacrifice and grassroots goodwill, keeping alive a tradition of altruism that transcends current politics. And of course, there is also the broader international audiences. And for them, I think the narrative showcases that Washington and Beijing have a history of pragmatic cooperation, even during turbulent times.
- [09:37]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So in China today, you know, there is deliberate effort to preserve all sorts of legacy from the Second World War in museums and things like that. When it comes to the avg, how does China seek to preserve it? Are there museums dedicated to it? Are there memorials? Are there conferences that are held? Academic centers? Is it the local governments? And how much of this is driven by central leadership as opposed to grassroots initiatives or local government initiatives?
- [10:11]
B
I would say China's AVG memory infrastructure is quite diverse and actually layered. For instance, we have museums and memorial parks in various local provinces such as Yunnan, Guangxi and Chongqing City. These are often built around former air fields, crash sites, and key supply routes used during the war. Local governments usually play a very important key role in taking charge of those projects by providing land construction help and organizing exhibits. They usually team up with NGOs, private donors and descendants associations to gather artifacts and personal stories. In addition to that, I think universities and local research centers usually also come in and help by digitizing documents, holding. You mentioned conferences and training tour guides to share this history. And indeed, I think my own Institute for Global Corporation Understanding. A few years ago, we also partnered with the local institutes in Chongqing to help. I think many of those events. Of course, the central leadership also serves for anniversary of significant events, help boost funding and media coverage. But the everyday operation of those museum and memorials are generally driven by local efforts. So curators, the Thai teachers, and local historians keep things going with limited budget and partnership. The result is, of course, an ecosystem where I think the center amplifies rather than micromanages.
- [12:06]
A
Okay, good, good, good. I'm curious though. You know, since the 1990s, we've had a patriotic education push in China, and I'm sure the Flying Tiger story features in that. I'm. I'm curious though, because, you know, sitting alongside it are other narratives about the US and its involvement in Chinese history that aren't so positive. So how do these two kinds of stories, one very, very, you know, positive, all about, as you say, altruism and sacrifice, and the other, you know, about American bullying, American interference in Chinese affairs. How do these two sit next to each other?
- [12:45]
B
Oh, I think the most Chinese people, many Chinese people likely learn about story of Flying Tigers outside of formal education, primarily through popular culture novels and films. I can give you one notable example from the film called Forever Young, shot in 2018, which tells the story of a student from Tsinghua University named Shenguang Yao, who is inspired by a real person and joins Flying Tigers, ultimately sacrificing himself in the battle against the Chinese. So while the Film definitely conveys a sense of patriotism, but outside the film, I think the overall message across the board emphasizes themes of friendship, foreigners who aided China's justice struggle, villagers who rescue airmen, and Sino American cooperation. So this portrayal does not, I think, does not clash with a broader narrative taught in Chinese school curriculum. So therefore, in most educational contexts, US History is not treated as an isolated subject. Rather, it is, I think it is sort of integrated into the study of world history, particularly during high school. So this curriculum spans significant events from the founding of the US up to World War II and beyond.
- [14:14]
A
Okay, okay. So, Professor Wang, you did your PhD in the United States, in Los Angeles, on the US side, from talking to Americans, from even talking to people you know, you were working with at ucla. Did you sense that there was a lot of awareness about the AVG and their role in China among the general public, among maybe veteran groups, even in the US Air Force? And. And is that leveraged on the US side in US China exchange at all?
- [14:42]
B
I think this is a very interesting question. I think the awareness international, actually, I think, is stratified, frankly. I think among the general public, I think there is a lack of knowledge about the abg, while limited recognition could happen around anniversaries and films and then fail veterans organizations and air museum communities. Sustainable higher literacy because it hosts lectures and exhibits. You mentioned U.S. air Force. I think within the U.S. air Force, my understanding is that AVG sits in the broader heritage of air power and collision warfare. Practitioners leverage this awareness through targeted programming rather than mass campaigns, sister partnership with AVG sites, museum to museum exchanges, and public ceremonies featuring both American descendants and Chinese counterparts. I think this efforts actually work because they convert nostalgia into real contact between peoples. So I think that's my understanding.
- [15:57]
A
Yeah, I mean, I'm a very big believer in people to people contact and anything that helps. That is great, but. But the narratives diverge. You were talking about how in China, there's a particular framing of them, US Maybe when they do know anything about the AVG at all, there is sort of this America as liberator narrative, the story of freedom and the spread of liberal values. Whereas in China, as you say, it emphasizes anti Japanese solidarity, emphasizes Chinese gratitude for American volunteers and things like that. Is there a way to bridge these narratives or do they cause problems with the divergence?
- [16:39]
B
Sure, of course they are, as you mentioned, divergent narratives surrounding the Flying Tigers. I think these divergent narratives of Flying Tigers, they actually stem from distinct national context and historical memories. The American framing center on freedom and liberal values reflect its post World War II identity as a defender of such ideals. Highlighting the volunteers choice to fight tyranny aligned with America's self image as a champion of global freedom. China's focus on anti Germany solidarity and gratitude arises from its suffering during the anti Germany war. So the Flying Tiger support was a critical lifeline symbolizing international aid in its for survival. So I think these narratives are not inherently contradictory and I believe they actually can be breached. At their core, both celebrate the Flying Tigers courage and alliance against fascism, Emphasizing shared goals, defeating a common aggressor and honoring the mutual sacrifice. American pilots as well as Chinese ground support can unify these stories together. I think a balanced perspective that acknowledges each nation's historical lens while highlighting the common value of wartime cooperation will help foster understanding, turning divergence into a richer collective memory of the Flying Tiger's legacy.
- [18:24]
A
So a 20 year old pilot flying in back then with Claire Chenault in 1940, he's 100 years old if he's still alive today. And I think they're pretty much all gone now, all the pilots, probably all the crewmen who flew with them. How are we going to preserve the memory of that beyond the deaths of them? Because are there enough sort of US civic organizations and Chinese civic organizations, the heritage groups, the sister cities, things, you know, these friendship societies that have been keeping it alive, Are they going to continue to be able to keep this alive now that there really are no more survivors of that time?
- [19:12]
B
You're right. I think this is, you know, quite a challenge. I think veteran associations, U.S. civil groups and their Chinese counterparts have turned the Flying Tiger's memory into living exchange by centering shared storytelling, cross cultural events and intergenerational engagement. So thanks to their efforts, I think we are nowadays in a much better position in preserving those memories. The US veteran groups such as the Flying Tigers association and the Chinese Heritage organizations lead oral history project, for instance. They record veterans accounts and share them via museums or online platforms, preserving personal narratives that transcend politics. They also co host commemorative events such as annual ceremonies marking key World War II battles or exhibitions such as displaying vintage aircraft or pilots letters, etc. That tour both countries, letting the public connect with history more tangibly. And I think sister cities and friendship societies also play a very important role here. They help expand this to daily exchange. For example, youth Chinese sister cities linked to Flying Tigers history such as Kunming and Tucson run student programs, youth exchanges, joint research on the Flying Tigers or cultural workshops that help teach younger generations about the story. So civic groups also facilitate People to people bonds, organizing visits for veterans families to China, or supporting community projects such as scholarships named after the Flying Tigers. So altogether, I think these efforts from various different organizations, groups, they help keep the legacy from fading, turning the historical partnership into an ongoing friendship.
- [21:27]
A
So, Professor Wang, the Flying Tigers were not the only Americans in China's skies in those years. Actually, they weren't the only foreign. I was just reminded in a conversation I had with Ron Amitter about actually there were Soviet fighters who also were flying. But for another podcast, there's also the story of course of the Doolittle Raiders who bombed Tokyo in 1942 and many of whom landed in Zhejiang. Actually, you're from Zhejiang, right? Yeah, yeah. Where Chinese villagers risk their lives to shelter the pilots. There was a show that I actually did with the daughter of one of those villagers, a very well known journalist here who's been. I mean, she actually opened the Newsweek bureau here in the early 1980s. Melinda Liu, her father was one of these people who helped the Doolittle Raiders and she's done quite a bit of work on that. And so we talked about that on a show and I'll put a link to that. But anyway, how do you see the Doolittle raid and especially the Chinese who help those airmen, complimenting, how does that sort of work in complementarity with the Flying Tigers narrative in the political memory of the Sino American relationship?
- [22:35]
B
I think you're right. I think the Du Little raids and the Chinese villagers heroic aid, they complement the Flying Tigers narrative because it helped deepen the Sino American memory politics by highlighting shared sacrifice at different stages of World War II. So while the Flying Tigers focus on sustained aerial battle between 1941-42, defending China's skies. While I think the 1942 Doolittle raids was a bold one time mission that rely entirely on Chinese civilians who really just risk torture or death to hide downed airmen, guided them to safety and smuggle them to government forces. So this story echoes at Flying Tiger theme of cross national solidarity, but adds a grassroots layer emphasizing that Sino American cooperation wasn't just between militaries, but also between ordinary people. So together, I think these two narratives actually paint a fuller picture. Together, the Flying Tigers as organized allies, do little rescuers, as civilian heroes for memory politics. This breath, I think actually strengthens the message that a bilateral friendship is looted in mutual courage, whether by pilots or villagers. So you mentioned your show with Ms. Melinda Liu, for example. I think it helped amplify this by centering personal intergenerational stories, making both Histories relatable and reinforcing their shared role in shaping Sino American ties.
- [24:27]
A
Let's pivot now from history and memory to policy today, because the Flying Tiger story doesn't just live in museums. It's very much invoked at the very highest levels of diplomacy. So in the weeks, for example, before the Woodside Summit that was just south of San Francisco, Xi Jinping actually signed his name to a piece that was in the People's Daily above the Fold, invoking the Flying Tigers spirit and the memory of the Flying Tigers. I mean, for somebody like me, it's obvious what that means. Every time if you're in China and suddenly you turn on the TV and you see a lot of Korean War movies, you know that maybe that sends a particular signal, but another signal sent entirely when you suddenly see the Chinese president writing positively about the Flying Tigers. So from your perspective, what was the message that Beijing was sending by emphasizing the legacy at that particular moment?
- [25:21]
B
President Xi's reference to the Flying Tigers in his People's Dailies article just before the WSI summit, I think served several layered purposes. First, domestically, it signaled to the Chinese audiences that Beijing seeks stable, great power relations grounded in historical friendship, even when our relationship is going through strategic tensions. And second, internationally, it reminded the United States and its public of a time when Americans voluntarily defended Chinese skies, implying that cooperation is not only possible, but also part of a Shi tradition. And I think the timing is also very important. Just days before a high stakes meeting with US President Biden underscores a desire to soften the atmosphere, offering a positive narrative that both sides find welcoming. So importantly, I think the invocation required no policy concessions while projecting goodwill. It is a reminder that cooperation has precedent and therefore remains imaginable. Therefore, I think it helps create goodwill atmosphere before Woodside Summit, which actually turned out to be very successful.
- [26:47]
A
Yeah, but I wonder how well these messages get received. I mean, do American policymakers hear them? Do they understand them? Do they land in the way that they're intended? I mean, I wonder whether they even are aware of the signal when it's sent, because the signal has to be understood in order to have effect. Right?
- [27:11]
B
You're right. I can only guess. Of course, I think American foreign policy analysts, I believe they should treat the Chinese references to the Flying Tigers as sort of multidimensional. Right. Simultaneously, it's a sincere outreach. And of course, there's also a bit of symbolic involved. So I think sincerity lies in general. Chinese gratitude for wartime assistance, reinforced by robust local memorial culture and analysts, I think should not, of course, dismiss American analysts, I mean, should not dismiss such gestures as mere propaganda because Flying Tiger's references are, you know, best read as a good way invitation to de escalate and also explore practical cooperation. Right. By referring back to the history of when we were friends who were fighting against the things were better.
- [28:11]
A
Yeah, exactly. I mean, so it's an olive branch, obviously. But I mean, I worry though that because with the depth of the strategic rivalry today, I worry that invocations of the Flying Tigers legacy just become sort of hollow. They no longer mean as much to the Americans. They're viewed maybe even as cynical. History is just sort of this kind of veneer, this sort of. What would you caution against in how we deploy history, on how either side deploys it? Is there a danger of that at all? Do you see?
- [28:44]
B
Well, this is a very important question. I think, you know, Amit, today's Central American sort of strict tensions. I think you're right. There is real danger that Flying Tiger's legacy become horrible, reduced to a rhetorical veneer to mask tensions if involved, without sincerity or respect for its call, which is mutual sacrifice and shared purpose. So the risk, I think lies in instrumentalizing history, using the Flying Tigers only for political purpose. Like Tolkien mentioning speeches without follow up on people to people ties or ignoring its nuances, grossing over past cooperation while fueling present distrust. So I think this not only trivialize this reverend's sacrifice, but also erodes public trust in such historical references to mitigate such risk. A couple of things I think. First, ground invocation in the full story of us Chinese pilots and civilians working together. Second, linking rhetoric to action, inciting the Flying Tigers. Pair it with tangible efforts such as supporting veteran exchanges, funding joint historical research, student programming, et cetera, that reflect the legacies spirit. Finally, prioritizing authenticity over symbolism. Let the legacies focus on empathy and the collaboration guide engagement rather than using it as a superficial bridge without real commitment to dialogue. Only then does legacy retain meaning and will become lasting.
- [30:41]
A
So Professor Huang, if you were advising American diplomats, how would you suggest they respond to Chinese invocations of the Flying Tigers? I mean, what tone and what substance would make that response more credible rather than just sort of perfunctory? What would you advise them?
- [30:58]
B
Well, let me think. I think the American diplomats probably should respond to Chinese invocation of the Flying Tigers with tone that is warm but grounded. That means publicly recognizing the bravery of both American volunteers and the Chinese civilians and pilots who fought alongside them while avoiding vague platitudes. Credibility comes from coupling Words with concrete cooperation. So by offering specific mutually beneficial initiatives and inviting reciprocal commitments, U.S. officials can turn a ceremonial reference into a platform for sustained people to people contact and be inspired to start dialogue with their Chinese counterparts over president disagreement rather than remain confrontational.
- [31:52]
A
Yeah, yeah. What are some of the other historical bridges that you would highlight? We talked about the avg, of course, and the Doolittle Raiders. What are some of the other things in US China's sort of shared history? It doesn't even have to be just from the war. What are some of the other things in that portfolio between China and the US that you could draw on? I mean, I'm thinking about stuff like, I mean, we're here in Haidian District and Tsinghua University with the Boxer Indemnity, Peking Union Medical College. What are some of the other things that somebody like me who tries to work hard to build these bridges should have at the ready in my back pocket to whip out to remind people of better times?
- [32:38]
B
Sure. I think the US China relations contain many stories of collaboration beyond the Flying Tigers. The wartime medical corporations such as the China Aid Council Field hospital, staffed by Chinese American doctors, connects directly to modern public health exchanges. And United China Relief, which provided humanitarian aid and raised awareness for the Chinese people during the World War II, is also another good example. So each of these histories, I think, carries concrete civilian oriented lessons that can be translated into current cooperation and friendship.
- [33:24]
A
So looking ahead now, finally, what role do you think this shared history can realistically play in at least stabilizing the relationship? I mean, can stories like the Flying Tigers shift the trajectory of a relationship that's as complex as the one between the US And China today? Especially when we have somebody like Donald Trump in office who does not exhibit particularly keen historical acuity or memory of. Sure.
- [33:50]
B
You actually mentioned President Trump. I think you watch the September 3rd parade.
- [33:57]
A
Oh, he sure did.
- [33:58]
B
Actually. He in his, you know, his own choose social media platform. He actually tweets, you know, their sort of American, so element of American sort of recognition, sort of, you know, contribution being recognized. Actually, the Flying Tigers are being. Being invited and other veterans groups, their families were invited to the parade. So we probably should let President Trump also know about that as well.
- [34:27]
A
Yeah.
- [34:28]
B
The Shia history will not override structural competition, of course, but it can help keep the relationship from hardening into permanent hostility at least. So sorry. Like Frank Tigers, it help create this soft tissue between the bombs of strategy. They reduce misperception by reminding both publics that cooperation is possible and has real precedent. They also provide ready made platforms, heritage conservation, disaster relief training, student fellowship, et cetera, that encourage practical collaboration in non sensitive areas. These initiatives, of course, will not change the balance of power or resolve disputes over trade or security, but nevertheless, I think they can slow escalation. They can help build trust among public between our societies and also help preserve channels of communication during times of tension. So in relationship, this complex, as complex as the China US relationship, I think that layer of resilience is not cosmetic. I think it actually it's meaningful, it's real. It can be the difference between brittle, risky confrontation and stable and healthy relationship.
- [36:05]
A
Excellent. Excellent. Well, I want to thank you for your time and at the end of the show, usually I ask my guests to recommend something. I'm going to ask you specifically to recommend a book or a movie or something in English that my audience can find accessible about the Flying Tigers that you really like.
- [36:23]
B
Sure. I think the movie I just mentioned, Forever Young, I'm not sure it's been sort of choice translated into English, but I'm sure there's an English subtitle of that. I think that movie is also about the history. You mentioned that Peking University, Tsinghua University, at that time, you know, the eight sort of most famous universities, they retreated to the southwest because of invasion and also against that pact historical backdrop. And of course there's a young hero, you know, inspired by Flying Tigers and he actually joined the Flying Tigers and sacrificed himself for the nation and for, you know, fighting against fascism. So I think that's a very excellent, I think movie. I. I would recommend Great recommendation, says.
- [37:15]
A
The 2018 film called Forever Young. What's the Chinese name of it? Okay. Okay, fantastic. Thanks. I will definitely watch that. I haven't seen it before. I'm actually going to recommend a couple of TV shows I've been watching in tandem. Both just feature people who rob drug dealers. For some reason, they're both centered in Philadelphia and environs. One is called Dope Thief, it's on Apple tv. And the other is called Task on hbo and it stars Mark Ruffalo and he's really amazing in it. Anyway, thank you once again. It's been very generous of you to invite me here and to talk to me for so long about this very, very, very important topic. I hope that we can continue conversations about other topics in the future.
- [37:56]
B
Sure. Thank you for having me, Kaiser. It's my pleasure.
- [38:01]
A
You've been listening to the Seneca Podcast. The show is produced, recorded, engineered, edited and mastered by me. Kaiser Guo support the show through substack@zynecapodcast.com where you'll find a growing offering of terrific original China related writing and audio. Email me@cinecopodmail.com if you've got ideas on how you can help out with the show or just to provide feedback. Don't forget to leave a review on Apple Podcasts. Enormous gratitude to the University of Wisconsin Madison center for East Asian Studies for supporting the show this week. Huge thanks like guest Professor Waltol. Thank you for listening and we'll see you next week. Take care. Sam.