Sinica Podcast Episode Summary

Episode: We Were Right: Kaiser and Jeremy Reunite to Riff on the China Vibe Shift

Host: Kaiser Kuo
Guest: Jeremy Goldkorn
Date: November 11, 2025

Main Theme Overview

This episode reunites Sinica Podcast host Kaiser Kuo with co-founder and longtime co-host Jeremy Goldkorn for an unscripted, wide-ranging discussion on what they dub the “China vibe shift.” They argue that both in media and political circles, the strident, alarmist anti-China rhetoric that dominated U.S. discourse over the past decade has palpably receded. Instead, a more nuanced, measured, and sometimes even admiring tone toward China is emerging—driven by both changes at home in America and in the global order. Kaiser and Jeremy reflect on what’s driving this shift, how it’s playing out in politics, media coverage, generational attitudes, and their own personal perspectives.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The U.S. Domestic "Dumpster Fire" and Waning China Panic

• Jeremy's Take: The biggest factor in the softened U.S. tone toward China is domestic dysfunction:
  • “It is very, very difficult to get too worked up over Communist Party malfeasance… when every morning waking up to the news is a nightmare for much of the world, but you really feel it if you're in America.” (05:16)
• Kaiser adds: The U.S.-China narrative is always in some sense a comparative exercise:
  • “What we think of another place has everything to do with what we think of what's happening here at home.” (05:58)

2. Trump, Authoritarian Admiration, and a Shift in Focus

• Trump creates contrast with China both by embracing some forms of authoritarianism (taking the wind out of anti-China moralizing) and focusing on other foreign issues.
• Interest in Taiwan has receded following unsuccessful recall votes and cancelled high-profile visits/events, with Trump treating Taiwan more as a “bargaining card… disposable if necessary.” (08:14)
• Polling in Taiwan shows diminishing public appetite for confrontation, affecting U.S. enthusiasm for “beating the war drums.” (08:45)

3. End of Hardline “China Hawkism”

• Jeremy:

  • Hardline China hawks (e.g., Pompeo, Navarro) have faded or are sidelined: “All the hardline China hawks are either gone or neutered… Even the ones that still remain… are quiet and seem to not have any role of any consequence.” (09:07)
  • Shift in hawkish ire toward India noted humorously (“Death By India Now,” Navarro pivot) (10:00–11:08)

• Media Analysis:

  • “The China hawks… are in full retreat. It's like the end of a decade of China Hawkism.” (11:33)
  • Congressional committees “sound increasingly sort of shrill and… impotent.” (12:22)

4. Tech & Media Narratives—Jaw-Dropping Admiration

• Kaiser:
  • U.S. strength “isn’t going to come from shutting China out,” as former Google CEO Eric Schmidt argued in The Atlantic (13:01)
  • Recent books and high-profile visits (e.g., by Ford’s Jim Farley, Dan Wang’s Breakneck) have shifted focus to Chinese competence and innovation.
• Jeremy:
  • The narrative from non-specialists is “China is winning at certain things… [and is] competent. Which is perhaps, you know, the thing we're feeling most vulnerable right now in the United States.” (16:12)

5. Generational Shift: Younger Americans Warm to China

• Polling Evidence:
  • The Pew and Chicago Council polls reveal a “rising positivity” toward China among the young and, generally, a less confrontational approach:
    • “The percentage of people who were supporting, actively containing China fell from 49% to 36% from 2023.” (27:25)
    • The generational trend is “a leading indicator… these are people who are going to move into the sort of center very soon.” (27:48)
• TikTok, Temu, Shein, and “infrastructure porn” online are shaping perceptions:
  • “The picture you get of China if you just watch TikTok… is remarkably different.” (29:09)
• Cultural spillovers (K-pop, generalized ‘Asian cool’) normalize and endear aspects of Chinese or broader East Asian culture, especially for younger, less cosmopolitan Americans. (30:32)

6. China’s Diplomatic Reset: No More Wolf Warrior Diplomacy

• China has dialed back its “wolf warrior” ultra-nationalist messaging, which had looked “petty and small and weak, just like Trump’s antics do now to America.” (32:16)
• Ending such diplomacy mattered most to journalists, who amplified that negativity, and its absence has helped soften international perceptions. (32:48)

7. Rise of Admiration for Chinese ‘Spine’ (Especially in Trade)

• American and British public comments (e.g., on Guardian/FT articles) have shown support for China “standing up to the bully”—a sentiment that wouldn’t have been seen a year ago. (34:13–35:15)

8. Cautions against Pendulum Swinging Too Far

• Kaiser and Jeremy warn about possible overcorrections:
  • Twitter/X discourse now has “pro-China hubris that has no patience at all for any form of criticism about China.” (41:28)
  • Fandom and ideological shifts can become toxic—a lesson from the feverish anti-China years that need not be repeated:
    • “Things can go too far… if I've learned anything from the last five or six years is that my assumptions can be overturned overnight.” (43:18)

9. Reflections on Personal Vibe, Media, and Going ‘Home’

• Jeremy: Personally, having left the frontlines of the China Project, he feels calmer—less stressed, less reactive about China, and more focused on the U.S.'s own dysfunctions:
  • “Currently the greatest threat to world prosperity is right here in the US… that's where my concentration should be, not on China.” (21:10)
• Both Kaiser and Jeremy experience homesickness for Beijing, expressing anticipation for future visits and reunions.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Jeremy Goldkorn [on U.S. domestic politics and China focus]:

  • “It is very, very difficult to get too worked up over Communist Party malfeasance… when every morning waking up to the news is a nightmare…” (05:16)

• Kaiser Kuo [on the ‘China Hawk’ retreat]:

  • “The China hawks… are in full retreat. It’s like the end of a decade of China Hawkism.” (11:33)
  • “I feel like the hawks have kind of punched themselves out. Like, they've just been screeching so loudly for so long that they're just sort of tired…” (24:07)

• Jeremy Goldkorn [on media narrative shift]:

  • “The narrative that I think most audience… who are not China people have come away from from Dan’s book is, is that China is winning at certain things.” (16:12)

• Kaiser Kuo [on polling]:

  • “The percentage of people who were supporting, actively containing China fell from 49% to 36% from 2023.” (27:25)

• Jeremy Goldkorn [on TikTok-driven perception]:

  • “The picture you get of China if you just watch TikTok… is remarkably different.” (29:09)
  • “It's infrastructure porn. It's lifestyle that looks, looks pretty cool. It's gadget porn. It's drones, it's young people having fun. It's, you know, cool cities.” (29:40)

• Jeremy Goldkorn [on the end of Wolf Warrior diplomacy]:

  • “It made China seem petty and small and weak, just like Trump's antics do now to America. When you have diplomats tweeting things like an adolescent, it does not make the country look like a serious country.” (32:16)

• Kaiser Kuo [on pro-China pendulum]:

  • “There's this new kind of pro China hubris that has no patience at all for any form of criticism about China.” (41:28)

• Jeremy Goldkorn [on shifting perspective]:

  • “Currently the greatest threat to world prosperity is right here in the US and if anybody's going to get excited about any party or politician doing bad things, this is where my concentration should be, not on China.” (21:10)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Opening overview & episode context: 00:00–04:09
• Vibe shift origins, impact of U.S. politics: 05:16–06:56
• Trump, Taiwan, and foreign policy adjustment: 06:56–09:05
• Demise of the China Hawks: 09:05–13:01
• Media narratives and shifting admiration: 13:01–17:00
• Generational shifts, TikTok perceptions: 27:25–30:32
• Wolf Warrior diplomacy, China's image reset: 31:44–32:48
• Chinese ‘spine’ and global reaction: 33:15–35:15
• Cautions about new pro-China hubris: 41:28–43:18
• Personal perspectives, returning to Beijing: 46:08–47:14
• Cultural recommendations & closing: 47:30–53:38

Pay It Forward & Recommendations

Jeremy Goldkorn:

• Echo T in Berlin for organizing the Berlin Independent Chinese Film Festival.
• J. Ruquin in New York, for his work on independent Chinese film events. (47:30)
• Book: “Ya No Man” by Richard Poplak—Memoir of growing up in apartheid South Africa. (50:05)

Kaiser Kuo:

• Podcast: “Rhyming Chaos” by Jeremy Goldkorn and Maria Repnikova—Stories about living through authoritarian takeovers. (51:40)

Closing Tone

The episode’s tone is conversational, thoughtful, sometimes self-deprecating, with flashes of humor, nostalgia, and clear-eyed skepticism—all in keeping with the long-running Sinica ethos of “bringing more light and less heat” to China discourse.

Bottom Line

The “China vibe shift” is real, measurable, and perhaps overdue—driven as much by U.S. internal turmoil as by change in China itself. Both Kaiser and Jeremy see a generational opening for more mature engagement, even as they caution against new groupthink and over-corrections. And the nostalgia for Beijing, and thoughtful optimism that underpins their reunion, is as strong as ever.