Sinica Podcast — Episode Summary
Yi-Ling Liu on The Wall Dancers: China's Internet, Its Creative Spirits, and the Art of the Possible Date: February 25, 2026
Host: Kaiser Kuo
Guest: Yi-Ling Liu
Main Theme:
A deep dive into Yi-Ling Liu’s new book, The Wall: Searching for Freedom and Connection on the Chinese Internet, exploring the evolution of Chinese online life, the creative "dancers" navigating censorship, and what China’s Internet reveals about the art of possibility, resilience, and adaptation under constraints.

Episode Overview

Kaiser Kuo welcomes journalist and author Yi-Ling Liu to discuss her acclaimed new book, The Wall, which chronicles the culture, communities, and creative resilience of Chinese Internet users—“wall dancers”—over three decades. The episode moves beyond binary depictions of the Chinese Internet, highlighting how people push, retreat, adapt, and innovate within and around state-imposed boundaries.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Meaning Behind “Wall Dancers”

[07:25]

• Metaphor Origins:
  • The term comes from “dancing in shackles,” first used by Chinese journalists in the early 2000s to describe creative adaptation under constraint.
  • Quote: “Unlike, you know, the words that you mentioned, dissident or netizen, it implies a kind of dynamic relationship between state and society...this kind of push and pull relationship that can be creative, that can be artful.” — Yi-Ling Liu [07:44]
• Moving Beyond Binaries:
  • “Dissident” and “netizen” oversimplify; “wall dancer” captures the dynamic negotiation and artistry needed to flourish under state constraint.

2. The Rise of the "Netizen" and the Digital Public Sphere

[09:34 – 11:42]

• Adoption of “Netizen”:
  • Though coined in the U.S., the term became synonymous with Chinese Internet users, reflecting how the web became the country's first true public sphere.
  • Quote: “Especially in the early 2010s, when Weibo was coming alive...Chinese Internet users were treating the Internet and the online sphere as this kind of digital town square.” — Yi-Ling [09:57]
• Before the Internet, such a public sphere never existed in China; the sense of digital belonging was powerful and formative.

3. Early Chinese Internet: Promise, Limits, and Pragmatism

[13:55 – 15:06]

• Conditional Openness:
  • The early 2000s Internet was both liberating and constrained—restrictions existed but compared to the pre-Internet era, the openness was exhilarating.
  • Example: A closeted policeman (later founder of Blued) used the web to discover queer community, but had to dig through negative, pathologizing content—web spaces were still policed and silenced.
• Personal Experiences:
  • Kaiser reflects on how, in the mid-2000s, foreign news sites weren’t universally blocked; only “the usual suspects” like those focused on Tibet or rights issues faced restrictions.

4. Portraits of "Wall Dancers"

a. Ma Baoli (“Geng Le”, founder of Blued)

[16:33 – 19:25]

• A closeted cop who builds China’s largest gay dating platform.
• Liu describes negotiating for access (“Gay Talese writes about Frank Sinatra” method)—first writing around Ma Baoli, later earning his trust directly.

b. Lanyu and Beijing Story — a Cultural Touchstone

[20:45 – 22:53]

• The film and online novel Beijing Story became a ritual of self-recognition for a generation of queer men, facilitating collective catharsis.
  • Quote: “For many, it’s...a moment of reckoning and kind of revelation and catharsis because it’s like ‘Oh my gosh, I thought I was alone...and then they read the story...and feel a lot less alone.’” — Yi-Ling [21:38]

c. Feminist Voices & Lü Pin

[29:40 – 33:05]

• Lü Pin’s journey from state-affiliated journalist to leader of an influential feminist online hub, navigating shifting boundaries (“playing boundary ball”).
• The crackdown on the Feminist Five forced much of the organizing underground.
  • Quote: “They used the term at the time that they were tha biancio, or playing boundary ball...like trying to hit a ball such that it skims the edge...just within bounds.” — Yi-Ling [32:03]

d. Chen Qiufan (Stanley Chan) — Sci-Fi Writer

[35:50 – 44:37]

• Sci-fi's dual role: Both supported as a vector for national soft power, and a zone where writers resist co-optation to maintain universalist and critical themes.
  • Quote: “Sci-fi is interesting because...there is very much an attempt to both empower it and co-opt it for itself.” — Yi-Ling [37:17]
• Kaiser probes what makes Chinese sci-fi “Chinese”—Liu notes generational differences but resists easy Orientalism; themes of techno-stress, spiritual malaise, and the nearness of sci-fi realities recur.

e. Khafe Hu and Hip-Hop

[48:11 – 52:39]

• Hip-hop as localized counterculture: Scenes flourished, were embraced, then suddenly hemmed in. Artists adapted—some pivoted to patriotic themes after state bans.
• Contrast: Hip-hop, as an American-born counterculture, proved much harder to co-opt than science fiction.

f. Eric Liu — The Weibo Censor

[53:31 – 56:48]

• By humanizing content moderators, Liu reveals that censorship is both algorithmic and deeply reliant on individual interpretation—the “dance” is present on both sides of the firewall.
• Eric’s later activism with China Digital Times provided rare windows into internal mechanics.

5. The Dance as Broader Social Logic

[23:55 – 26:22, 58:13 – 61:08]

• The dance is deeply pragmatic, visible in how activists, entrepreneurs, censors, and ordinary netizens negotiate conditions.
  • Quote: “[They] could speak the language of their communities, but also speak the language of authority and kind of code switch...The ability to move back and forth...allows for adaptability and leverage for change.” — Yi-Ling [24:02]
• The state itself was pragmatic, allowing and even encouraging dynamism when it suited economic or social management needs, but censored when it threatened authority.

6. Techno-Utopianism, Disillusion, and Convergence with the West

[61:08 – 64:35]

• Liu reflects on the global death of internet utopianism—the Chinese web’s romance is over, and in the West too, faith in digital emancipation has waned.
• Centralization, algorithmic manipulation, and oligarchic governance are now common to both China and the US; the problem is less about “censorship” per se, more about power concentration.
  • Quote: “...It doesn't matter if it's autocrats or oligarchs, but when it's just a few people who have...carved out the turf of the web and are dictating how that space is being used, we're going to have problems.” — Yi-Ling [65:10]

7. Lessons on Freedom and the Multiplicity of Values

[69:00 – 70:28]

• The experience of researching and writing the book pluralized Liu’s sense of freedom: for some, it’s expressive; for others, relational, communal, or existential.
  • Quote: “It just reveals that there’s a very plural and rich landscape of different freedoms. And freedom is really the ability for people to kind of define what they want theirs to be.” — Yi-Ling [70:20]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “It was like, not like reading distant reportage, but more like revisiting these rooms that I once stood in.” — Kaiser [05:32]
• “You talk about Fang and Shou—they need to fang when that's correct, to loosen, and to shou, to retighten when they need to. But...your central metaphor of the dance is...a very, very good one.” — Kaiser [27:35]
• “Chinese netizens have been dancing in shackles for a long time. Do you think they kind of understood earlier than the rest of us how truly fragile these digital freedoms really were?” — Kaiser [67:22]
• “We were definitely naive—technology does not equal freedom. There's not this inherent liberatory force in the technology itself. And it's very much how we use it and are being used by it.” — Yi-Ling [62:22]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [06:54] — Origin of “wall dancers” as a more nuanced metaphor than “dissident”/“netizen”
• [09:34] — The term “netizen” and the emergence of a digital public sphere in China
• [13:55] — Early openness and constraints in the 2000s Chinese Internet
• [16:33] — Ma Baoli/BLUED and the queer experience online
• [20:45] — Lanyu/Beijing Story as a generational touchstone
• [29:40] — Lü Pin, Feminist Voices, and playing “boundary ball”
• [35:50] — Sci-fi, soft power, and resisting nationalist co-optation
• [48:11] — Hip-hop: subculture, visibility, and state backlash
• [53:31] — The life of a Weibo censor, humanizing the firewall
• [61:08] — The global death of Internet utopianism
• [64:35] — US/China Internet convergence and centralization
• [69:00] — Reflections on freedom and its many forms

Recommendations and Paying It Forward

[71:50 – 74:58]

• People: Zhang (Wired, ex-MIT Tech), Luis Matsakis (newsletter with Zhang)—noted for outstanding tech journalism.
• Books:
  • Fiction: The Loneliness of Sonya and Sunny by Kiran Desai — explores migration, belonging, and diaspora.
  • Nonfiction: Machine Decision Is Not Final — anthology on Chinese AI, NYU Shanghai.
  • Additional by Kaiser: The Coming Power Conflict and Warnings from History by Odd Arne Westad (forthcoming); Global Jigsaw newsletter by Pahlavi Aiyar.

Episode Tone & Takeaways

The episode is intimate, thoughtful, and nuanced—eschewing grand binary narratives for stories of improvisation, agency, compromise, and the complex dance between repression and creativity. Listeners come away with a sense that the Chinese Internet is not just a story of censorship or victimhood, but of resourceful, pragmatic actors—creatives, activists, subcultures, and even censors—navigating and sometimes reshaping their world.

Recommended for listeners seeking a sophisticated, character-driven understanding of Chinese online life and its lessons for the global digital age.