202: Live at 92NY

Summary

#SistersInLaw Episode 202: Live at 92NY – Detailed Summary

Podcast Information:

• Title: #SistersInLaw
• Host/Author: Politicon
• Description: Politicon’s #SistersInLaw features a panel of political and legal experts—Joyce Vance, Jill Wine-Banks, Barb McQuaid, and Kimberly Atkins Stohr—who delve into the inner workings of government, tackle corruption, and offer their insights on the latest in politics, law, and culture.
• Episode: 202: Live at 92NY
• Release Date: September 21, 2024

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1. Welcome and Introduction

Jill Wine-Banks opens the episode by welcoming the New York audience at the 92nd Street Y. She introduces her co-hosts: Kimberly Atkins Stohr, Barb McQuaid, and Joyce Vance, humorously acknowledging the challenges of maintaining focus during introductions. Jill outlines the main topics for the evening:

• Sean Combs’ Indictment: Exploring the legal charges against the rapper and music mogul.
• Trump’s Legal News: Recent developments in Donald Trump’s ongoing legal battles.
• Election Dangers: Examining threats to the upcoming elections.

Notable Quote:

• Jill Wine-Banks [01:40]: “We are thrilled to be at the 92nd Street Y. It's really an honor for all of us.”

2. Personal Connections to New York

The panel shares personal anecdotes about their relationship with New York City, highlighting its cultural significance and personal histories.

• Jill Wine-Banks reminisces about her time in the West Village and her thwarted dream of becoming a guitar player.
• Kimberly Atkins Stohr discusses her experiences living in Manhattan and Westchester County, including a harrowing incident involving her car being set on fire.

Notable Quote:

• Kimberly Atkins Stohr [05:17]: “I love New York despite that.”

3. The Indictment of Sean Combs

Kimberly Atkins Stohr leads a discussion on the indictment of Sean Combs, comparing it to high-profile cases like Epstein’s.

• Cassie Ventura’s Role: Kimberly commends Cassie for her bravery in coming forward, which paved the way for other victims.
• Legal Stakes: Joyce Vance explains the seriousness of RICO charges, emphasizing the organized crime aspect of the indictment.

Notable Quotes:

• Kimberly Atkins Stohr [15:01]: “What is alleged is, I mean, worse than Epstein.”
• Joyce Vance [15:01]: “These are cases that are reserved for serious conduct.”

4. Challenges in Prosecuting High-Profile Cases

Barb McQuaid and Joyce Vance delve into the complexities of prosecuting powerful individuals.

• Building the Case: Barb highlights the difficulty in proving such cases beyond a reasonable doubt, especially when involving influential figures.
• Victim Hesitation: Joyce discusses the reluctance of victims to come forward, particularly when the perpetrator is wealthy and connected.

Notable Quotes:

• Barb McQuaid [16:21]: “Kidnapping is in there. Possession of assault weapons with obliterated serial numbers.”
• Joyce Vance [22:17]: “It’s not easy stuff to do.”

5. Viability of the Indictment

The panel assesses the likelihood of the indictment against Combs holding up in court.

• Past Precedents: Jill Wine-Banks references previous cases (e.g., Bill Cosby, Harvey Weinstein) to analyze potential outcomes.
• Current Strength of the Case: They express optimism that the current indictment is robust enough to avoid the pitfalls of earlier high-profile cases.

Notable Quote:

• Jill Wine-Banks [28:15]: “I think this one... is going to stick and that he will.”

6. Violent Rhetoric and the First Amendment

The discussion shifts to the impact of violent rhetoric on democracy and the boundaries of the First Amendment.

• Barb McQuaid raises concerns about how inflammatory language from leaders can incite violence, drawing parallels to events like January 6th.
• Jill Wine-Banks emphasizes that while the First Amendment protects free speech, it does not protect calls to imminent violence.

Notable Quotes:

• Barb McQuaid [35:22]: “Violent rhetoric can radicalize some people to action.”
• Jill Wine-Banks [36:29]: “The First Amendment does have limits... when there is a clear and present danger of imminent violence.”

7. Election Integrity and Voter Suppression

The panel examines current challenges to election integrity, particularly focusing on voter suppression efforts and changes in election laws.

• Georgia’s New Rules: Barb McQuaid explains Georgia’s recent implementation of hand-counting ballots, which could delay results and fuel fraud allegations.
• Voter Suppression Tactics: Kimberly Atkins Stohr outlines Republican-led lawsuits aimed at making voting more difficult, disproportionately affecting Democratic voters and marginalized communities.

Notable Quotes:

• Kimberly Atkins Stohr [50:24]: “Republican led election boards trying to make it as difficult as possible to vote.”
• Barb McQuaid [53:47]: “They must hand count every ballot... which is going to take weeks.”

8. Media Coverage and Accountability

The discussion turns critical towards media coverage of political figures, particularly focusing on the disparity in how Democratic and Republican actions are reported.

• Bias and Normalization: Kimberly Atkins Stohr expresses disappointment in journalists who fail to critically cover Republican candidates, fearing impartiality.
• Call for Better Reporting: The panel urges media organizations to hold all candidates accountable, regardless of party affiliation.

Notable Quotes:

• Kimberly Atkins Stohr [69:07]: “I have just been very disappointed in journalists... they don't want to say it full throatedly out front.”
• Jill Wine-Banks [71:39]: “Pressure the New York Times to start being better.”

9. Audience Q&A Session

The episode features an interactive Q&A session where audience members pose questions, which the panel addresses with practical advice and further analysis.

• Encouraging Voter Participation: Joyce Vance and Jill Wine-Banks emphasize the importance of registering to vote and participating in elections to safeguard democracy.
• Citizens United and Campaign Finance: The panel discusses the limitations of overturning the Citizens United decision and suggests enhancing transparency to combat dark money in politics.

Notable Quotes:

• Joyce Vance [78:11]: “Our most sacred obligation as citizens is to find a role to play.”
• Barb McQuaid [76:04]: “To change it, I believe would take a constitutional amendment.”

10. Concluding Remarks

As the episode nears its end, the hosts encourage continued civic engagement and promote their respective projects and merchandise. They also express gratitude towards their supporters and reiterate the importance of standing up for democracy.

Notable Quote:

• Jill Wine-Banks [83:44]: “Keeping us from falling off the ledge. Thank you for the question.”

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Key Takeaways:

• Legal Proceedings Against Influential Figures: The indictment of Sean Combs represents a significant legal challenge, highlighting the complexities of prosecuting high-profile individuals.
• Voter Suppression Efforts: Recent changes in election laws, especially in Georgia, pose threats to fair voting processes, necessitating vigilant legal and civic responses.
• Impact of Rhetoric on Democracy: The episode underscores the dangers of violent and inflammatory rhetoric in politics, emphasizing the need for responsible speech.
• Media Accountability: There is a pressing need for unbiased and critical media coverage across the political spectrum to uphold democratic integrity.
• Civic Engagement: Encouraging voter registration, participation, and awareness is crucial in countering efforts to undermine democratic processes.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• Jill Wine-Banks [01:40]: “We have a great show for you tonight.”
• Kimberly Atkins Stohr [15:01]: “What is alleged is, I mean, worse than Epstein.”
• Barb McQuaid [35:22]: “Violent rhetoric can radicalize some people to action.”
• Jill Wine-Banks [36:29]: “The First Amendment does have limits... when there is a clear and present danger of imminent violence.”
• Kimberly Atkins Stohr [50:24]: “Republican led election boards trying to make it as difficult as possible to vote.”
• Barb McQuaid [53:47]: “They must hand count every ballot... which is going to take weeks.”
• Barb McQuaid [76:04]: “To change it, I believe would take a constitutional amendment.”
• Jill Wine-Banks [83:44]: “Keeping us from falling off the ledge. Thank you for the question.”

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Conclusion: Episode 202 of #SistersInLaw provides a comprehensive analysis of pressing legal and political issues, featuring expert insights on high-profile indictments, election integrity, the impact of political rhetoric, and the role of media in democracy. The panel emphasizes the importance of civic engagement and remains steadfast in advocating for justice and transparency in government.

Transcript

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[Jill Wine Banks]

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[Joyce Vance]

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[Jill Wine Banks]

Welcome New York. We are thrilled to be at the 92nd Street Y. It's really an honor for all of us. And I want to start, of course, by introducing my sisters in law, Kimberly Atkins, storer in the middle, Barb McQuaid, who's currying favor with the audience. And Joyce Vance. And I forgot to introduce myself. I'm Jill Wine Banks. We have a great show for you tonight. As Ellie said, we are going to take your questions and they are to be questions. And Barb McQuaid is very strict about this. Her law professor instincts say you have to ask a question and not give us a lecture. So we look forward to the questions, though. And we have a great show for you tonight. Before we get to the show, we're going to do some chitchat, but first I want to tell you some of the subjects we're going to talk about. We have first, a rapper who has many AKAs. He's sometimes his real name, I guess is Sean Combs. You know him as Diddy or Puff Daddy. And he's now a resident of fewer prisons in New York now. So we'll talk a little bit about that and then we're going to talk about the most recent things or at least this week's things in the Trump world of legal news. And then we're going to talk about some of the dangers facing us in the elections this year. But before we get to all those great topics, I want to talk about how we love New York. And I want to start by saying thank you. Yes. And it Is welcome back. And I actually have at least a law school classmate of mine here from Columbia Law School. So I'm excited because I am back over there. Let's wave. But I also have a relationship with the 92nd Street. Why? Because I used to live at Park west village, which was 96 and Central park west. And I came here for one of my failures in life, guitar lessons. I became a lawyer instead of a guitar player for obvious reasons.

[Barb McQuaid]

Was it like folk singing, Jill? It was like Bob Dylan style. What was it?

[Jill Wine Banks]

Well, Bob Dylan not. But yeah. Peter, Paul and Mary, maybe.

[Barb McQuaid]

So, yeah, Peter, Paul, Mary and Jill.

[Joyce Vance]

Can you hum a few bars? Will you sing a little bit for us?

[Jill Wine Banks]

I don't even sing aloud at Happy Birthday. I was told when I graduated grade school to mouth the words to my school song so that I wouldn't throw everyone off key. But I did get to meet Mary of Peter, Paul and Mary. And she.

[Barb McQuaid]

Of course she did, right?

[Jill Wine Banks]

Well, she was dating Richard Van Denista, one of my Watergate colleagues, so. And she told me that that was the meanest thing anybody could have ever done and that she could teach me how to sing. I noticed that she never did. But anyway, maybe if anybody in the audience wants to teach me, it's not too late. I still can learn, I'm sure. So what about you, Kim? What's your favorite thing?

[Kimberly Atkins Storer]

I love New York. I've lived in New York on two different occasions. I too, am a Colombian lion alum. That's where I went to journalism school. The best journalism school in the world, by the way. And I also worked as a reporter at the Gannett newspaper in Westchester County.

[Barb McQuaid]

Yay, Westchester.

[Kimberly Atkins Storer]

And I lived in Manhattan. I lived on the Upper west side when I was working there. So I would. Yes, yes, I had a great little walk. We were on the fifth floor of a walk up, but it was Great. Right at 93rd and West End. But so I reverse commuted to Westchester and back. So I had my car. And like a good New Yorker, I parked my car on the street because, like, what else do you do? And I felt like I was really tough. I could. I could parallel park in like a space this big. And I knew where to circle and I knew when the hospital shifts were changing and I could go over there, you know, y'all know what I'm talking about. So one day I was off and I was going to the gym and I look and I see the window on my car that was parked. I think it was on 90th, and it was broken and I thought, oh, man, like, that's a bummer. So I go to walk over to see the damage, and then as I get closer, I realize the whole back of my car is charred. Like, charred. And I vaguely remembered hearing sirens overnight. I thought, oh, no. So, you know, I reported, and, you know, the fire marshal comes out, and everyone comes and is talking to me, and the fire marshal's asking me, do you have any enemies? Has anybody? No, I don't think so. I'm a, you know, what do you do for a living? I'm a reporter. Well, you know, anybody threaten you or anything? No. It's like, was there anything on your core that might have, you know, And I, you know, I lived a long time in Boston, and so I was a Red Sox fan. And there was a bumper sticker. Keep in mind, this was circa 2003, right around the time that Pedro and Zim had a little kerfuffle. So the final report said that apparently trash caught fire on the street. And I thought, was he referring to my car? But I do love New York despite that.

[Jill Wine Banks]

So, Barb, tell us about your experience in New York.

[Barb McQuaid]

Oh, well, I love New York. I haven't had an opportunity to live here, and I didn't take guitar lessons here, and my car hasn't caught on fire here. But whenever I come to New York, I do all the things, you know, when I. When I arrive in New York, I imagine myself as Marlo Thomas, as that girl, you know, like, waving in all the windows and looking at the skyscrapers. Yeah, we've been confused for each other. But I do love to do all the New Yorkie things. So I got here today. I went to the MLB Major League Baseball flagship store. That was great. I ran in Central Park. Tomorrow I'm going to go see a Broadway show, Stereophonic. Has anybody seen it?

[Jill Wine Banks]

Good.

[Joyce Vance]

Good show.

[Barb McQuaid]

I'm particularly excited to see Stereophonic because one of the actors in it is the daughter of a former colleague at the U.S. attorney's office in Detroit. So part of the DOJ family. Sarah Pidgeon, Tony Award nominated. You have all heard of the Tonys. I mean, it's not like a Webby or anything, right? But I guess they're a big deal. I guess they're a big deal. So I'm going to do that. But one thing I did not get a chance to do this trip last night was to go over to the Barclays center and to see the WNBA leading New York Liberty. But I did get a chance to.

[Jill Wine Banks]

Pick up.

[Barb McQuaid]

Much more comfortable.

[Joyce Vance]

Well, Golly, that's sort of tough to go after, you know, I think my story is actually a sad one. Unlike everybody else. A lot of my family is in New York. My granddad was the youngest of six brothers. He moved to Los Angeles and I grew up out there. But New York was always a magical place to us as kids. And then I got to come here for the first time when I was seven years old. And the big excitement in my family when you were here, especially on a weekend morning, was the same excitement that we had in Los Angeles, actually. It was to go out and get lox and bagels at Barney Greengrass or someplace like that. And I really, really loved doing that, loved my cousins, loved spending time here. And then by great happenstance, I married a law school classmate and ended up in Birmingham, Alabama.

[Barb McQuaid]

She's the Hillary Clinton of Alabama.

[Joyce Vance]

Close enough. So I am here to tell y'all, you cannot get a decent bagel south of the Mason Dixon line. And I have a really bad habit. Which brings me back to my luck of New York. At some point, I discovered that you could call the nice people people at Zabars and they would send you not only bagels, but hand sliced lox and maybe a few other things. And they would charge you exorbitant prices for doing that. I go as long as I can in between times, but every few months I have to make the phone call and have a little slice of New York delivered down to Alabama.

[Jill Wine Banks]

So you can see how we all love you. And we are looking forward to this. I want to give you one last instruction. At the end of the show, we're going to turn our backs on you to take a selfie of ourselves with you. So we want you all. The house lights are going to go up. We want you all to stay and stand up so you can be in our picture. So remember, at the end of the show, we want you in our picture.

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[Jill Wine Banks]

And with that, Kim, would you start the first segment?

[Kimberly Atkins Storer]

Yes. So I will lead our discussion about the artist now known as defendant. I just want to start out, I mean, for those of you, I'm sure most of you know that Diddy was indicted finally for really, really horrific crimes that seems to have gone on for a very, very long time. The dam sort of broke after one of the survivors of his alleged abuse. Cassie, who is an artist too, came forward very bravely on her own before anyone else did. But she enabled other people to come forward too. And it's such bravery. And I want to start off this discussion by focusing on Cassie Ventura who is a hero because that was not. That's never easy to do to go up against a powerful, rich connected person. But it's even harder when you're a woman of color. So I take my hat off to her. But I want to just talk about this indictment. I just want to get you, your guys just view about it. I mean, what is alleged is, I mean, worse than Epstein. I would say in some ways it was really, really horrific. Choice.

[Joyce Vance]

Yeah, I mean, I agree with that. There's the violence, the coercion and the inability of the victims to get away from it. Plus it's indicted, you know, as a RICO charge. I mean, do we have lawyers in the audience? I can't really see, but I bet we have a lot of lawyers, right? And do we have prosecutors? Westchester County DA Mimi Rotha, I know that you are out there. I suspect, I suspect we have other lawyers. These are serious cases. I mean, these are cases that are reserved for serious conduct. The fact that it was brought here in New York in federal court tells you a lot about the serious nature of the charges.

[Kimberly Atkins Storer]

Yeah. Barb, what jumped out at you at this indictment?

[Barb McQuaid]

Well, obviously, sex trafficking is a really serious charge, and the rico. But if you look at the predicate acts in the rico, RICO is, you know, it's racketeering and a racketeering conspiracy. And so what is racketeering? It's really just organized crime. And so it needs to allege specific crimes as part of that enterprise. And so some of the crimes in here, Arson. They set people's cars on fire and threw Molotov cocktails inside. Yeah.

[Kimberly Atkins Storer]

I have never met the defendant.

[Barb McQuaid]

Kidnapping is in there. Possession of assault weapons with obliterated serial numbers. Assaults, Incredibly violent case. And so you say it's worse than Epstein. I'm not sure. It's like comparing the apples and oranges that have gone rancid each.

[Kimberly Atkins Storer]

But it's like Epstein plus sheer brutality. I feel like it's the trafficking and the brutality together. It's just this noxious mix.

[Barb McQuaid]

Yeah. And I also, like you, my heart goes out to the victims in this case. And one question I heard Damian Williams, the U.S. attorney, get asked was, what took so long to charge a case like this? And I don't know. But what I do know from my experience as a prosecutor is it's one thing to look at a video and say something awful is going on here, and it's quite another to build a case evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that you can prove to a jury unanimously. But, you know, this kind of goes back to 2008. And the other, I think, very good, teachable lesson about this case is that sometimes we see things that we don't understand, and people do not stand up and question them. You know, victims can be hiding in plain sight from time to time. And so I think it's an educatable moment, too, that people, you know, whether working in hotels or gas stations or for fancy caterers and airlines, need to recognize what they're seeing and intervene or report it when they see it.

[Kimberly Atkins Storer]

Jill, what jumped out at you about this? I mean, one thing that jumped out at me was the fact that throughout the indictment, it was called the Combs Enterprise, this RICO charge. And before that, you would think of the Combs Enterprise as his television shows and his music and his labels. He has, like, liquors and all kinds of other things that he merchandises. Clothing. He had a whole clothing line throughout the 90s that people were using. That was the. No, the Enterprise was this horrific trafficking ring that was absolutely brutal.

[Jill Wine Banks]

Yeah. This was a businessman who used his legitimate business for criminal enterprise. And I was in the Department of justice when Title 3 and RICO became laws. And the racketeer influenced corrupt organization was meant to be organized crime, the Mafia, but it has been expanded to cover businesses like this one, which did horrible things. And I can't. If you read the indictment and you read. First of all, every time the defendant is mentioned, it takes three lines because his AKAs take so long. And they don't just say hereafter called the defendant every time they go through every one of his names. But I think it is the fact that he used his hired help, his business associates, his personal assistants to do it. And I think the other thing that stands out is how well laid out this indictment is. And the difference from past indictments and why I think this will be a successful prosecution is because they have laid out the phone calls, the text messages, the videos, the how many hundred bottles of baby oil were retrieved, cases of. I mean, it's amazing the bribery that was attempted. And something Barb said was, it's a teachable moment. And gas stations are now training employees to look for signs of victimization in people who pull into gas stations. You know, does the person have to ask permission to use the bathroom? Do they look frightened? So I think that this is a teachable moment. And it took a long time because there are a lot of victims, and it's always hard to get people to cooperate. But once someone, as Kim said, as brave as Cassie, came forward and made a public complaint and she filed a civil case, which ended up being settled the next day, it kind of opened the door for other people to come forward and say, me too. And so the MeToo movement has had some real impact that people are coming forward. It's horrible that it was this bad. And it's. You know, Epstein was pedophilia. There were a lot of young people, and that's horrible. These were people who were more adult. There were no children involved, but there were a lot of them, and they were under his control. He drugged them. Of course, that sounds like Cosby. And he really abused people physically and mentally. And so it was. There's just not enough you can say about how bad this is, how serious a crime it is, and how it's time for the government to stand up and say, we are watching this and we aren't going to let it happen anymore.

[Kimberly Atkins Storer]

Yeah. And Joyce, talk a little bit more about why it does take so long to. To prosecute cases like this, because it did Seem like this was such a long time in coming, and not just since Cassie came forward, but it's sort of. It was sort of an open secret that Diddy was not a good guy. Right. It wasn't that super. But also, talk about prosecuting cases that involve high profile. We'll talk about the high profile of the perpetrator in a bit. But the survivors, a lot of them are artists. They were out. One of Cassie was seen on the red carpet with the defendant very soon after that video that we all saw. So how is it difficult when the survivors themselves are out in public? I mean, you're talking about how you. You know, it's not always people that are on an airplane and you're like, blink if you need help. Right.

[Joyce Vance]

I mean, everything about doing a case like this is difficult. No part of this is easy. And, you know, I think. Could it have happened more quickly, perhaps? The important thing is that it happened. Now, Kim, to the point that you're making in a sex trafficking case, it's very difficult to get a victim to talk to you for all of the obvious reasons. When those victims are high profile, it's that much more difficult. They're that much more hesitant to come forward, which is why what Cassie did, when she came forward, when that videotape became public, that was a real watershed moment here. Something that's really interesting in this indictment is that there is only one defendant. I don't want to read too much into that, but because of the specificity and the detail in the indictment, I suspect the government has a lot of cooperating witnesses. Maybe some people who could have been defendants, but who have good deals. Maybe we'll see some of them plead guilty, but get a lesser sentence. Maybe some of them won't be prosecuted doing all of that, flipping those witnesses, testing their veracity, putting the evidence together. That takes a long time, too, because the government has to be able to prove every element of the charge beyond a reasonable doubt. It's the highest burden in our legal system. And it's not easy stuff to do. And then there's a practical consideration. Shortly after the government issues an indictment, it has to turn over discovery to the defendant. And federal discovery is governed by something called Rule 16 of the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure. It sets out very specific categories of evidence that a defendant is entitled to. In a RICO case, that involves proving up all of the predicate acts that you challenge. It also includes any exculpatory evidence, anything that the defendant could use to establish that he's not guilty. So you Get a sense. Right. Discovery imposes broad requirements. Government has to be ready to pony up pretty quickly. New York Southern District's a little bit slower than some districts. You still have to be ready to go. That means if you're the government, you have to have all of your ducks lined up before you go to the grand jury. It really looks like they lined them up here. This is a highly specific indictment.

[Kimberly Atkins Storer]

And, Barbara, you talked a little bit about how often this is happening right in plain sight. Like I said, they're right there on the red carpet when this is going on and what that says about how these cases are perceived. And I would also add that it says something different when the survivors are mostly women of color. Can you talk a little more about that?

[Barb McQuaid]

Yeah. When I was working in the U.S. attorney's office, we brought a number of sex trafficking cases. Certainly nothing that was as high profile as this. But one of the challenges of prosecuting a case like this is when you hear sex trafficking, the jury expects they're going to see evidence that the victims were bound and gagged, that they were chained and kept in a basement. And in fact, they're often walking side by side with their assailant. And that creates a disconnect for members of the jury. But the way these cases usually work is first, the assailant will entice the victim to come, become close. How do they do that? Maybe with romantic overtures. Sometimes it's with promises of a modeling career with young kids, teenagers. Sometimes it's a cell phone and clothing and money, other kinds of things. You're going to live a glamorous life, baby. You and me. And when it's somebody as famous as Sean Combs, you know, you feel like you've just hit the lottery. Oh, my gosh, this is so great. And then suddenly it turns. Some of the victims here were plied with illegal drugs like opioids and ketamine and become addicted. And they need their assailant for that next hit. And so it's coercion, it's threats. They don't think they can get away. And then there's also leverage. If you leave, I will tell everybody I've been videotaping all of this. I will share this with the world or your loved ones. And so people feel trapped into this situation. I know sometimes when we talk to the survivors of this, they say, I can't even tell you what has happened to me. I am complicit in this. I went along with it. I'm to blame, and I don't even know what this is called. And we said, no, you are a victim of sex trafficking. And people didn't even understand that. And so explaining that to the victims, explaining that to the jury can be difficult because of that expectation that they're going to be in chains or in handcuffs. And so, as you say, the victims can feel concerned that if I come forward, they're not going to believe me. They're going to side with this rich, powerful person or this powerful person has the ability to hurt me, kill me, seek revenge against me. I don't have the resources to be able to do anything about this. So I don't have any recourse. So those are some of the challenges that it's important to educate jurors about, potential jurors about the public about and even would be victims so that you can build resilience and people can recognize these tactics when they're being used to manipulate women, women of color, young people, boys, all of the people who can be victims of sex trafficking crimes.

[Kimberly Atkins Storer]

And Jill, speaking of people who have a lot of power and fame, we have seen very high profile defendants have their cases dismissed. You mentioned Bill Cosby, Harvey Weinstein. Harvey Weinstein, what would it take to, if this defendant is convicted to make that stick? And do you think that can happen here?

[Jill Wine Banks]

This is a very different case. I think, you know, Cosby got off because a prior prosecutor had made a promise to him and the court said the promise was binding and so he couldn't be prosecuted after they promised they wouldn't prosecute him if he testified in a civil case brought by the first of his victims, Weinstein. Again, it's a technicality and he is going to be retried. So there is still the possibility. I think in this case they've learned from those experiences. There's, as far as we know, no prior promise and the technicalities have been taken care of. I think they have the witnesses, they don't have the statute of limitations problems that occurred before. And so I think this one, you know, could stick. He is in jail. That's something that's different where he's.

[Kimberly Atkins Storer]

No bail.

[Jill Wine Banks]

No bail. And if we have time, we can talk about what that means and why.

[Kimberly Atkins Storer]

He is talk a little bit about.

[Jill Wine Banks]

That because I think this is a really interesting issue that at least in the federal system, you don't have to stay in jail pending being convicted. You're presumed innocent. But the judge can say you're a real danger to the community or you're a flight risk. Now, obviously, someone with the money that Sean Combs has is a flight risk he can take up and go. And so they offered, well, we'll give you $50 million bond that'll keep him here. And in fairness, he also came to New York voluntarily, knowing, I think he had to know, unless he was an idiot. And maybe his actions show that he was, that he came here voluntarily knowing he'd be arrested. So he's not a flight risk, or he would have already left. He's turned in his passport, his children's passports, he's going to sell his plane. So they're saying he's not a flight risk. But then they wrote a letter to, you know, the judge saying this is why he should be detained. I think the magistrate makes this decision that showed why he was really a flight risk and why he's a danger. And a lot of it was because of interference with witnesses. He's tried bribery before. He's tried threats before. As Barb mentioned, he has videos of some of his victims that he could ruin their reputations and ruin their careers by going forward with them, although if they testify, people will probably know about it anyway. But they've made that choice themselves by cooperating. And so I think that the no bail is going to stick. It's been denied several times now. And I know he'll keep trying. He says he's going to appeal to the Second Circuit or his lawyer said that they're appealing, and I'm sure that they will. But I have a feeling that the evidence that's been put forward in the indictment and in the letter asking that he be detained in prison is going to stick and that he will. It will stick. And that the issues, you know, the good thing about having prior cases that go bad, it's why at the Department of Justice, all lawyers who come as trial lawyers start doing appeals first is because you learn what the mistakes of trial lawyers are, so you don't make those mistakes. And I think they've learned. And so that it's going to be a case that actually, well, we will.

[Kimberly Atkins Storer]

Continue to follow it as it progresses and future in our future episodes.

[Barb McQuaid]

Thank you.

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[Barb McQuaid]

Com cocktail if you're a maintenance supervisor for a commercial property, you've had to deal with everything from leaky faucets to flickering light bulbs. But nothing's worse than that ancient boiler that's lived in the building since the day it was built 50 years ago. It's enough to make anyone lose their cool. That's where Grainger comes in. With industrial grade products and dependable, fast delivery, Grainger can help with any challenge, from worn out components to everyday necessities. Call clickranger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done. Well, let's move on to our next topic. I wanted to tell you about something that maybe you haven't heard. There's going to be an election soon. There are two candidates for president. One goes by the name of Kamala Harris, former prosecutor and all around boss, I must say. The other candidate is a man who comes from New York by the name of Donald Trump. Donald Trump. Now he has been the subject of some assassination attempts. All of us denounce that. All of us think that is abhorrent. All of us think that that is the antithesis of democracy. But since then, Donald Trump has said that the reason for these attempts on his life is because of all of that rhetoric by the Democratic Party. Sure, I hate Taylor Swift, but it's the Democrats who are saying all of these things that are riling people up. They're eating the dogs, they're eating the cats, they're eating the pets of the people who live there. I mentioned Kim told me that her shoes that she's wearing tonight are kitten heels.

[Kimberly Atkins Storer]

If they try to eat my Gucci's.

[Jill Wine Banks]

I swear I'm protecting the dogs of the world. Also wearing a gift from someone in the audience, a Madame Prez pin.

[Barb McQuaid]

But I want to have a serious conversation about this because I do know from my experience as a terrorism prosecutor that violent rhetoric can radicalize some people to action. It certainly has happened with isis. There would be sermons by Anwar Al Awlaki. People would Watch them and be radicalized to action. And I think that in some of the things we've seen, January 6th was a radicalization to action when Donald Trump convinced people that the election had been stolen. And it creates a tension, doesn't it, in our system where we have a First Amendment right to say most things, it's not absolute, but we do have a First Amendment right of freedom of expression. On the other hand, when there is violent rhetoric, it can lead to violence. And so I wanted to talk with you all about your thoughts about that. Let me start with you, Jill. What are your thoughts about the violent rhetoric that we're hearing and whether the First Amendment has any protection on that?

[Jill Wine Banks]

So let me start first with the First Amendment does have limits, and it says when there is a clear and present danger of imminent violence, that you can't say it. I mean, the typical thing is you can't yell fire in a theater. And I would say that January 6th falls in the category of you can't tell a crowd that you know is armed and dangerous and who believes you when they say that the election was stolen. You can't tell them to go and march on the Capitol. That falls within. No, it's not within the First Amendment. That is absolutely an actionable call to action. I am a strong First Amendment person. I've been on the board of the aclu. I was on the board when the Nazis marched in Skokie, and we supported that. So don't get me wrong, I'm all for it. But I think we've come to a point right now where democracy is at risk, our whole country is at risk if we keep on this dangerous path. And let me finish before you boo me. Both sides are saying things that, you know, we and I. Based on the audience reaction, I can say we all here have been saying that Donald Trump is a danger to democracy and that he must be okay, I knew you would agree with me. And it's true. Of course, we always speak the truth. We don't go into this made up fact stuff. But when we say that, is it very different than when he says, you know, Kamala is a Marxist, socialist fascist? I know you can't be all of those things, but okay, he does say all of those things about her and that she's a danger to democracy and that we can't let her win? And when he says, you know, the Haitian immigrants have to be taken care of because they're eating your cats and dogs? I think there's a difference between those.

[Kimberly Atkins Storer]

Big difference.

[Jill Wine Banks]

So but we have to keep in mind that we have to think about what are the Republican maga, not normal Republicans, but the MAGA cult. What do they think when we say Donald Trump is a risk?

[Kimberly Atkins Storer]

I'm going to push back a little bit on that because it is not a reaction from the people who you're talking about. When someone like me goes on television and say what Donald Trump is doing threatens democracy, he has autocratic not just thoughts and beliefs, but actions. We have seen what he has done and he's continuing to do that. What foments and stirs up that violence is when Donald Trump turns around and says, see, the press is the enemy of the people and they are out to destroy you or that immigrants are going to destroy your. You know, you have to stop immigrants because they're going to destroy your community and they're going to take more than take your jobs. I mean, he has rhetoric that they're actually going to do harm to people in community. That is what makes people stirs people up. I've been on plenty on the receiving end of really nasty stuff. But it is always, whenever I look to see, okay, what happened, it is usually something on a right wing website or a tweet or something that someone not on our side said to sic that crowd on me. So that's the difference.

[Jill Wine Banks]

But you didn't let me finish.

[Kimberly Atkins Storer]

Okay, sorry. But in.

[Jill Wine Banks]

Don't misunderstand me. Yeah, so violence is where it differs. Democrats do not respond with guns and violence. And in fact, most of us aren't armed. Joyce and I are both Jewish and have experienced severe antisemitic reactions.

[Joyce Vance]

Yeah, but I was going to say Kamala and I both keep guns at home. So no one's breaking into our houses.

[Jill Wine Banks]

Kamala said that she would take care of anybody who broke into her house.

[Kimberly Atkins Storer]

Kamala also has Secret Service. I mean, why, of course, if you break into her house, you're going to get shot anyway.

[Joyce Vance]

But get past the Secret Service. She's a former prosecutor. She's going to take care of.

[Jill Wine Banks]

She said she would and I believe her. I mean, look what she did to Donald Trump in that debate.

[Joyce Vance]

Oh.

[Jill Wine Banks]

Some woman said to me, I can never vote for her because she's not a bully and she won't stand up to the bullies of the world. I can't wait to see that woman because that was before the debate.

[Barb McQuaid]

Well, let me turn to you, Joyce, and push back a little bit. You know, I don't think we can group. There's a fallacy called the whole Part fallacy, which is one person says something, and it gets attributed to everyone in the group. Right. So one Democrat says something, and it's those Democrats are all leftist radicals, or one Republican says something, and it's the whole group. So I think we want to be careful. But one of the things that J.D. vance is saying is when people say Donald Trump should not engage in violent rhetoric, he accuses them of censorship. And so is it censorship to suggest that perhaps it's not such a great idea to tell people to come to D.C. january 6th will be wild.

[Joyce Vance]

You know, with Donald Trump, he's always the victim. And if you're his vice presidential nominee, you have to say that he's always the victim. So it's predictable. We know what JD Vance will say in service of Donald Trump. But I think the reality, and it's something that we have to grapple with as a country, I suspect not very many people in this audience have ever voted for Donald Trump, but our fellow citizens elected him, and they elected him knowing who he was from that first minute that he said that Mexicans were criminals and rapists made fun of a journalist with disabilities. We have always known that Donald Trump is a racist and a misogynist. And the problem is that Donald Trump lacked the good judgment we expect from our presidents. Right. I mean, George Bush, Barack Obama, you may be a fan, you may not be, but you understood that whether you agreed with them or not, they were doing what they thought was best for country. That is not the baseline with Donald Trump, but he could not have become president without a certain number of votes from a certain number of Americans. And I think something we will have to do as we move forward from this, which I hope we will do after November and January, we will have to grapple with what it was that permitted so many of our fellow citizens to sign off on his brand of maliciousness. And we will have to find a way to, I think, come back together as a country, which is going to be difficult.

[Barb McQuaid]

Well, Kim, I want to move on to another Trump item in the news, and that is this reporting that the intelligence community has determined that Iran has been involved in hacking and stealing emails from the Trump campaign. That sounds eerily familiar, doesn't it? I think I've heard that before, and that they offered them to the Biden campaign and to the media who didn't bite. They said, no, thanks. We've kind of learned a lesson in 2016. And so, no, thanks. I am hearing from some people who say, well, fair is fair. In 2016, you will recall Russia stole, hacked and leaked email messages that were harmful to the Democratic Party and to Hillary Clinton. Ultimately, why are journalists, you're a journalist, refraining from report? I mean, it's news, right? Some of the reporting suggests that maybe these are Roger Stone's emails. Maybe they relate to J.D. vance. What is sort of the legal and ethical calculation that reporters go through in deciding whether to, to report information like this?

[Kimberly Atkins Storer]

Well, there's always been a balancing act. And you know, we understand that from the Pentagon Papers or anything else, when national security is involved, when threats to our democracy and our government is involved, the First Amendment does not, is not carte blanche. You know, just because you can do something doesn't always mean you should. And there are lots of circumstances. I think maybe people don't understand when journalists know something and we don't report it for any number of reasons, whether it's security. We may know before you do that the president is going to make an appearance in Afghanistan, or we may know before you do that there was some sort of strike that took place on a military target. The government asks us, because of those national security implications, to wait to report it until a time that it is safe to do so. So things like that happen pretty regularly, fairly frequently. And so we have Learned, thankfully since 2016, that when another government tries to interfere with our election process, we should not let them. There is a very good reason to protect the democracy, to protect our constitution, which protects us. We are the only profession that has express protection in the Bill of Rights to do that. So I think that's a no brainer.

[Barb McQuaid]

Yeah, it's interesting. You know, you may recall in 2016 when WikiLeaks published all of this stuff and what was Donald Trump's reaction? I love WikiLeaks.

[Kimberly Atkins Storer]

Yeah.

[Barb McQuaid]

A very different view, I think, about loyalty to the country over your Ask.

[Kimberly Atkins Storer]

Russia to look at, look at Hillary's emails.

[Barb McQuaid]

Russia, Russia, if you're listening. And Joyce, let me ask you one other question about what's going on in news in the Trump campaign. One of the things that Donald Trump continues to claim, of course, is that the 2020 election was rigged. And he has been saying now that if he wins this election, when he wins this election, if he discovers that election workers were engaging in any sort of fraud, he promises they will be prosecuted in his administration. What's your reaction to that? What's the potential harm of that? And what do you think? How does that land, do you think, in the ear of secretaries of state or county election workers or the people who work at a polling place on Election Day.

[Joyce Vance]

So, look, Donald Trump is not prosecuting any poll workers. Right. He is not telling district attorneys across the country what to do. What he'll do with the Justice Department if he wins, I think is the stuff of nightmares and good reason for us to all make sure that every last person in our circle is registered and we'll vote to make sure that that never happens. Donald Trump is a bully. He's always been a bully. He does this to try to deter Democrats from working in elections, from working as poll workers and as poll watchers. But I will tell you all a happy story tonight. In my experience, and I do a little bit of work in Alabama around elections, not only are poll workers not detoured by Donald Trump's nonsense, they understand the importance of signing up and working at the polls. And I literally had the experience two days ago of talking with a woman who works in one of the polls in a part of Birmingham that is not particularly friendly to Democrats. I don't know if you all have heard this, but Alabama, where I live, is a little bit pro Trump still. We haven't quite evolved. My neighborhood is a little bit easier to live in. But, you know, my friend said, and I asked her, I said, are you worried about all this stuff you're hearing? And she just sort of went, absolutely not. I can't wait to get to work. I think that's the attitude of Americans across the country.

[Jill Wine Banks]

Yeah.

[Joyce Vance]

So we can thank Donald Trump for making sure that as a generation of poll workers ages out, they have replacements in the younger generation.

[Barb McQuaid]

And, you know, I want to make a pitch. Anybody here work as a poll worker? Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for your service.

[Kimberly Atkins Storer]

That's amazing.

[Barb McQuaid]

I have had friends, family members, acquaintances, and others who do work at the polls. And what they say about that experience is, having worked at the polls, I have more confidence than ever that the vote is accurate and free and fair. And anybody who doubts that should go work at the polls and see for themselves. So I encourage everybody here to work at the polls. And thank you to those who do.

[Joyce Vance]

So. I am mindful of the time. But may I sneak in just a few questions for my sisters about elections? You know, Republicans seem to be insistent on making it more difficult for us to vote and to have our votes counted this year. Have you all noticed it really is a problem. Despite the claims that Democrats are engaging in lawfare, since January of this year, Republicans have filed 82 lawsuits across the country aimed at making it more difficult for Americans to vote. Kim you wrote a great piece this week talking about the landscape in election litigation. Can you just set the table for us a little bit?

[Barb McQuaid]

Yeah.

[Kimberly Atkins Storer]

I mean, we've been talking a lot about two sides. Right. But when you look at the litigation that is going on right now surrounding elections, what you're seeing by and large is a lot of efforts by attorneys generals and others who are working for Democrats, the Democratic National Committee and others filing suit in order to protect access to the polls and make it easier to vote, ensuring that early voting is taking place where it's available. And you see people who are from Republican led states, Republican led election boards trying to make it as difficult as possible A, to vote, two, to delay or give them the power even to deny certification of voting and then try to foment as much fear and distrust in the system as absolutely possible. So it's taking place in every kind of form. It's trying to, like I said, give more, greater powers to states just to say, no, no, we're not going to certify the election because we think that there is some fraud citizenship requirements. What do you think? Well, citizens can't vote. So what's wrong with a law, you know, that stops citizens? A lot of people don't have that documentation to take to the election. Now, that cannot stop you from voting in federal elections like the president, but it can stop you in some states from voting in local and state elections. And how many people are going to go and say, oh, I just want to vote for president? And how do you even count that? It's meant to keep people, particularly people most likely to vote Democratic, people who are lower income earners, newly naturalized citizens, brown people, people who live in rural areas. It's really terrible.

[Joyce Vance]

Yeah. So I think that takes us to Georgia. You know, Georgia is going to be one of the states where the outcome of this election is determined. And Republicans saw what happened in 2020. And I'm telling y'all, Kamala Harris is gonna run strong in Georgia. This is right where the intersection of law and politics is happening, because there is all sorts of shenanigans going on in Georgia. Every day it's something new. You know, it's. It seems like Republicans in Georgia are determined to find Donald Trump those extra votes he needs to win before the election happens and he can ask for them. So, Barb, can you tell us what's the latest in Georgia and what's really going on there? What's the end game?

[Barb McQuaid]

Well, I have breaking news there is for Georgia today in Georgia, the Georgia election commission voted to implement new rules for the upcoming election. This despite the fact that their secretary of state, Brad Raffensperger, you may remember his name from the 2020 election, urged them to not change the election rules so close to an election. He said, it's a terrible idea. We don't have time to train our election workers on new rules. Nonetheless, the Georgia Election Commission went forward and passed a number of new rules, the most egregious of which is that in every county, they must hand count every ballot after they've tabulated them.

[Joyce Vance]

But Barb, what's wrong with hand counting ballots? It's a paper trail. It has to be fair. If you're counting the ballots right, it is.

[Barb McQuaid]

But what it does is it's going to take weeks to actually hand count all of those ballots, and that's going to create delay. And in that period of time, you can imagine what's going to happen.

[Jill Wine Banks]

Right?

[Barb McQuaid]

There's fraud, allegations of. Have we heard that tune before? Allegations of fraud. So it buys time. Why Georgia? Why is Georgia going through this? Well, their governor, Brian Kemp, a Republican, did deny that there was any fraud in 2020, and yet he signed into law a number of laws that made it more difficult to vote in Georgia, requiring an ID for voting by mail, reducing the number of places where you could deposit a mail in ballot or an absentee ballot, even making it illegal to provide food or water to people waiting in line. Again, this idea, who is going to be impacted by this? People of color, lower income voters, students, people who are transient, likely Democratic voters. What happened in Georgia in 2020? Well, ultimately, Joe Biden won that state and they elected two Republicans to the Senate.

[Joyce Vance]

Right.

[Barb McQuaid]

Raphael Warnock and John. I'm sorry, see, you're paying attention.

[Kimberly Atkins Storer]

That was a test.

[Barb McQuaid]

Well done. Well done. You guys are sharp. Two Democrats, Jon Ossoff and Raphael Warnock. And so we now find ourselves with these more difficult rules. This comes on the heels of some other rules passed by this election commission. And this is a commission that is bipartisan, but it has a majority Republican members. And at a recent rally in Georgia, Donald Trump called them out by name and called them pit bulls for transparency and victory. They have also passed a rule that allows any county commissioner of the election board to delay certification for a reasonable inquiry. It does not define what is reasonable and it does not set any time limit for resolving that reasonable inquiry. So the worry is that this is going to create chaos and delay and lay the groundwork for stealing an election. That's the concern in Georgia. So a Lot of worry. There are some lawsuits pending there, and one hopes that. Well, that's. Is that the theme song for lawsuit? I like it. Lawsuits will be filed in Georgia and there's some great people working on that. But, you know, really paying attention to the infrastructure of elections has become a really important part of protecting democracy.

[Joyce Vance]

Yeah. You know, a big part of the dispute. Right. Is whether the people that certify vote counts in the counties. Is that just Minnesota, is their job really just to pass it through, or can they second guess the votes? And with these hand counts and the risk of delay, there's the possibility that folks in Georgia who run elections, who are documented election deniers might say, well, I'm concerned about these votes, so I'm going to throw them out and they'll certify an election, but they'll certify a result that's contrary to the will of the voters. And that I think is the subtext that lies underneath a lot of this litigation. So I'll put sort of a pin down for that right now. I'm sure we'll discuss it in the weeks ahead. Jill, last question about elections to you. I mean, maybe I'm naive, but I was pretty clear that the law in the United States was that only citizens could vote in presidential elections.

[Jill Wine Banks]

Anybody here doubt that?

[Joyce Vance]

You know, my senator Katie Britt back in December decided that we needed a federal law to make that clear, that, you know, maybe we didn't need to pass a budget, but we should make sure that we passed a redundant law. So look, this is pretty obvious. They're not pulling the wool over anybody's eyes with this. Why are they wasting so much time in so many states and in Congress on these alienage laws?

[Jill Wine Banks]

All of this is voter intimidation. They don't want people to vote. Of course non citizens cannot vote. And there is no history of non citizens even trying to vote. There is not a huge problem. So they're solving something that is not a problem. And it's just one more of the efforts at voter suppression. So not only have they made it more difficult, drop boxes, can't do it anymore. Vote by mail, can't do it anymore. Early voting only on certain days and only for a short period and never on Sunday when most people are free and can do it. So this is just part of the strategy of the Republicans to make sure that most people cannot vote, which only makes it more incumbent. And I had the privilege of being in Ann Arbor with Barb just last week.

[Barb McQuaid]

Ann Arbor, let's hear it. Ann Arbor Go blue.

[Jill Wine Banks]

And they are. Hey, wait a second. Illinois. Come on. But they're registering the students there. The students are registering other students. And the good news is that in Michigan, students from Illinois, where honestly our vote doesn't matter because Illinois is going to be a blue vote no matter what. So anybody who has students at the University of Michigan, their students can vote there where it makes a difference. So if you have students at schools in one of the swing states or if you have a second home and you want to vote in those other states, because New York is pretty safe, Illinois is very safe, please make sure they vote somewhere else, because that's what we need.

[Kimberly Atkins Storer]

Just vote once, but also once in.

[Barb McQuaid]

A place where you reside and you're not dead.

[Kimberly Atkins Storer]

Check the voter rolls, because I have someone in my family who was a student in Georgia and every single time the voting before the election checks the voter rolls and he's been removed. Make sure that they don't want college students. They target college kids particularly. So tell your college kids to make sure that you are registered to vote. Check your registration before the deadline. That is a purging is a big problem.

[Joyce Vance]

Yeah, I mean, can we just maybe end on that note? Because I know we're running late. The National Motor Voter Registration act says that you cannot be removed from the active voter rolls once you've hit that 90 day mark below an election. So go on. One of the online things, vote.gov, vote.org, i will vote. Check your registration status. Take a screenshot. If you're an active voter today, you're entitled to vote active in the election. If you're not, get it fixed now and get all of your friends and family to do it too. It's a big deal. We've got to make sure we can all vote this year.

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[Barb McQuaid]

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[Barb McQuaid]

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[Jill Wine Banks]

Sunglasses or contact lenses or to find.

[Joyce Vance]

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[Jill Wine Banks]

Okay, so now it's time for your questions that we will answer. And remember, there's microphones on both sides of the stage. And also remember, after the questions we're going to do a photo shoot with you guys. So remember, only questions and we're going to try to keep it short. Okay, here we go. It's hard for me to see, so I'm just going to blindly point. Is there someone over there?

[Kimberly Atkins Storer]

Yes.

[Jill Wine Banks]

Okay.

[Barb McQuaid]

Yes.

[Jill Wine Banks]

First question.

[Barb McQuaid]

Howdy, folks.

[Jill Wine Banks]

So I am, I'm feeling positive about.

[Kimberly Atkins Storer]

Election day.

[Jill Wine Banks]

But like you just spoke about, I am terrified about the abyss that comes after. And so aside from donating funds to Mark Elias and Associates to make sure that they have the legal team that.

[Kimberly Atkins Storer]

They need to be fighting against the legal fights that are going to come.

[Jill Wine Banks]

What can ordinary citizens do to support those efforts once we're at that point?

[Joyce Vance]

Well, I'm a big fan of Mark Elias work. That man is going to save democracy. For those of you who don't know Mark, he is the lawyer who is spearheading much of the pro voting litigation that's going on, trying to make sure the good cases happen and the ones that are dangerous don't. So hats off to Mark. I'm going to try to channel Mark, who I actually interviewed from my newsletter a couple weeks ago and spoke on his podcast. And I think he would tell you our most sacred obligation as citizens is to find a role to play. It might be a poll worker, it might be a poll watcher. You might write postcards to people in states that are in play. Really powerful. But whatever it is, even if it's just talking to your kids and making sure that they vote, it's a big deal. So go forth and help people vote.

[Barb McQuaid]

Hey, Jill, you know, it seems to me that in exchange for answering a question, we ought to get something out of it. A little something for us. I'M thinking maybe before someone asks their question, we ought to ask them for maybe, I don't know, a restaurant recommendation or their favorite site to see in New York. I don't know. I want a little something. I want a little information.

[Jill Wine Banks]

Let's go to the lemonade over here. Let's do that.

[Barb McQuaid]

Great shirt, by the way.

[Joyce Vance]

Nice T shirt.

[Jill Wine Banks]

I came from Philadelphia with a friend.

[Joyce Vance]

I couldn't recommend anything.

[Kimberly Atkins Storer]

I'm sorry.

[Jill Wine Banks]

But Philadelphia is really important in this election, so you have a big role.

[Kimberly Atkins Storer]

All right, we'll give you a pass. What's your question?

[Jill Wine Banks]

Forgive me, Joyce Vance, you said a few podcasts several ago that Scott Pilgrim.

[Barb McQuaid]

Against the World was this key movie that explains a great many things. However, you didn't explain it. That's why, and I'm embarrassed to ask because my husband said, oh, my God, she's so right.

[Joyce Vance]

Could you please explain it? Have you seen the movie? Yes, and I've forgotten most of it.

[Kimberly Atkins Storer]

I'm so sorry.

[Joyce Vance]

Well, so look, I mean, I'm a law school professor, so I'll assign homework. Scott Pilgrim is somebody who fights back against all the odds and beats the bully. And I think that's our roadmap with Donald Trump. Go watch the movie again.

[Jill Wine Banks]

Thank you.

[Barb McQuaid]

Right.

[Jill Wine Banks]

And if you want to see a movie that is prescient, watch A Face in the Crowd. It is almost as if they knew there was going to be a Donald Trump. It's a movie from, I think, the 50s, but it's really good.

[Barb McQuaid]

What about the Manchurian Candidate?

[Jill Wine Banks]

Yeah. Okay.

[Kimberly Atkins Storer]

We could do this all night.

[Jill Wine Banks]

We have the President's Men, not the remake of Manchurian Candidate. Hi, welcome back.

[Kimberly Atkins Storer]

I'm a poll worker in Queens, so thank you.

[Jill Wine Banks]

One of those new generations. And I do have a restaurant shout out. It's also in Queens. It's called the Queen's Room, so it's easy to remember. It's queer owned. It's a great spot. Thank you, Kim and Barb, for laying out, you know, the national sort of nightmare fuel that has all of us up at night with all of the states and the skullduggery and shenanigans going on. One of the things that's keeping me up is Nebraska right now in the.

[Kimberly Atkins Storer]

Winner take all electoral vote shenanigans that.

[Jill Wine Banks]

Are going on there with Lindsey Graham, every everybody's favorite senator. What do you know about what the legal process could be if they were.

[Kimberly Atkins Storer]

To decide to make that a winner.

[Jill Wine Banks]

Take all state for the Electoral College? Is there any sort of recourse that we Would have.

[Joyce Vance]

I mean, the Purcell principle, right, which usually says you can't make changes too close to an election and is always invoked by Republicans, including Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanaugh, would seem to come into play here. Am I wrong?

[Jill Wine Banks]

It's up to the courts. Is the bottom line. It's going to be Mark Elias or some other legal group that's going to challenge that change. I mean, this is one of those little teeny things that could make the one vote difference. You know, I hope that we're not at a one vote difference. I hope we have a landslide. You know, can go back to the Nixon era where he won 49 out of 50 states. I could only hope that would happen here. But it's not realistic.

[Barb McQuaid]

And if I may just add the Purcell principle, which is bedrock law and says that no changes may be made close to an election, why, that is as solid as Roe versus Wade.

[Joyce Vance]

But, you know, on a happier note, I think that if Nebraska does do that, the Maine legislature, mighty Maine, will find a way to go back into session. They have a similar rule that leads to a split in Maine's Electoral college votes. I think Maine might be the deal breaker there. Okay, thank you.

[Jill Wine Banks]

Okay, question over here. Hi.

[Barb McQuaid]

The lady who just. I'm with her from Philly. Hi. Hi, Barb. We went. We saw you at the book signing.

[Kimberly Atkins Storer]

You did.

[Barb McQuaid]

Thank you. Two things. One, Kim, this is for you as a journalist.

[Jill Wine Banks]

The country went ballistic when Biden lost.

[Barb McQuaid]

The debate, you know, because of his age, etc.

[Kimberly Atkins Storer]

But no, but why is nobody doing the same thing now with him?

[Barb McQuaid]

With Trump?

[Kimberly Atkins Storer]

I asked. Yeah, I honestly ask that same question all the time. I am actually really disappointed that there aren't newspapers across the board saying that Republicans should look at just the abject nonsense, whether it's not completing full sentences, whether it's saying insightful things, whether it is attacking communities falsely and lying a whole entire community upended by his rhetoric. And why there is no call from an editorial board to say Republicans pull back your candidate like this nominee is not suitable to hold this office. And they just won't. I think what has happened. I think what has happened is that the media cannot break its. It forgets. It forgets. It gets normalized. It's blinded by Trump just being Trump. And Trump got a pass for so long that they fear looking as if they're being impartial, if they suddenly now are saying, this person is a real danger to the way that we do government and the basic principles of our democracy. They don't want to say it full throatedly out front. A few of us do all the time. But I think it's an institutional problem. Some people are saying it's because people are motivated by clicks and they want to just get stuff. I've just personally, personally, I won't name names, but I've just personally been very disappointed in journalists that I have respected and looked up to and know and call friends who, about the way that they have been covering this election, they should know better. We saw what happened in 2020. And I really, I cannot answer your question because I share your question.

[Jill Wine Banks]

And for all of you New Yorkers, you ought to be pressuring your own hometown paper. They haven't lived up to their reputation. Their headline writers do not reflect what the articles say.

[Kimberly Atkins Storer]

And the articles aren't so great all the time.

[Jill Wine Banks]

And the articles also have sane. Ized. I don't know what the word is. They've made sane.

[Kimberly Atkins Storer]

Washed.

[Jill Wine Banks]

Sane washed. The stupid things that Donald Trump is saying. When his answer to the New York Economic Club about childcare came out as, as if he had actually answered the question. It's ridiculous. If you listened to his answer, it was not responsive to the question and it made no sense. It was gibberish. And so you gotta pressure the New York Times to start being better.

[Kimberly Atkins Storer]

Go ahead.

[Jill Wine Banks]

So if you ladies like Asian food, any cuisine, Thai, Vietnamese, you come out to Queens.

[Barb McQuaid]

I'm here out in Queens.

[Jill Wine Banks]

Best, the absolute best.

[Kimberly Atkins Storer]

It's true.

[Jill Wine Banks]

So Kim talks occasionally about being out on the ledge and I'm out on the ledge right now particularly. And I know this is going to sound a little crazy, but God forbid Trump wins. I worry, I worry about this enemies list and I keep watching MSNBC and saying, what's going to happen to Nicole Wallace? What's going to happen to pre Ferrara? What's going to happen to you? What? I mean, is it just the Liz Cheney's he's going after or is this going to be some sort of Stalinist utopia? And I guess my question is, can DOJ do anything to stop him or is he going to be.

[Kimberly Atkins Storer]

Well, not if the DOJ is in the Trump administration.

[Jill Wine Banks]

Read Project 2025. That's the end of the Department of Justice. That's. That's so talk me off the ledge. Can you vote Democratic?

[Kimberly Atkins Storer]

I'm on the ledge, so I can't talk anybody.

[Joyce Vance]

I mean, you know, a big topic of conversation has become, well, what country are you going to go to? And I get that, you know, and I'm Jewish and like all Jewish People, I worry about those issues. We are going to have to fight for this country. If democracy means something, we cannot let him.

[Jill Wine Banks]

I'm going canvassing tomorrow in Pennsylvania, so. But again, there are too many fellow Jews who I know who are just like you have to understand, he's the only thing that's going to be good for us. And I sent them all, I sent them all the video clip of what he said.

[Barb McQuaid]

Yes.

[Joyce Vance]

You know, can I just say, every community has that. But we should talk to people in our circle, your trusted friends, they will listen to you.

[Kimberly Atkins Storer]

That's true for all of us. And that answers the other question too. What you can do. People like me, I can talk til I'm blue in the face. And at this point, nobody knew was gonna say, oh, you know what? Kimberly Atkinstor had a point. You know who they're gonna listen to? They're gonna listen to their friends, they're gonna listen to their neighbors. They're gonna listen to the people in their churches and their synagogues. They're gonna listen to the people who they trust. And that's how you break through. I've seen it happen in families. That is what you can do. Tell people that this is different. This is different. You can be conservative, you can want those principles, but this is a fight for our country. Just vote that way. Just vote that way in November.

[Jill Wine Banks]

Okay. We've gotten out of hand because we're all talking. We're going to have to limit one person answers because we're going to run out of time. Question over here. Okay. Hi, my name is Erica and I'm from 20 blocks south of here. I just want to thank you.

[Kimberly Atkins Storer]

I have a question.

[Jill Wine Banks]

But I want to thank all of.

[Kimberly Atkins Storer]

You for coming over to Threads because it's made such a huge difference there.

[Jill Wine Banks]

I follow all of you and I think. Kimberly, I think you follow me back.

[Barb McQuaid]

Now, which was a big day for me.

[Jill Wine Banks]

So. And thank you for being the truth.

[Kimberly Atkins Storer]

Tellers because the media, present company excluded, are not. But my question is the food recommendations. So there's my parents and I who are here. We were just talking about it today. There's a Spanish restaurant in the West Village called Sevilla.

[Barb McQuaid]

Sevilla.

[Jill Wine Banks]

And it's a mainstay of Manhattan.

[Barb McQuaid]

Put that on the list. Sevilla.

[Kimberly Atkins Storer]

It is a mainstay from decades.

[Jill Wine Banks]

That's a good one.

[Barb McQuaid]

Sounds good.

[Jill Wine Banks]

So I have a small question for you. Can Citizens United be torn down?

[Kimberly Atkins Storer]

Is there a path forward to do that? And what can we as Cause I know there's the ethics crew.

[Jill Wine Banks]

I forget their Name. There is an organization that's a work crew.

[Kimberly Atkins Storer]

What can we do as individuals or as small collectives?

[Jill Wine Banks]

Because I'm part of Markers for Democracy, I think there's a few people here and we write postcards to voters.

[Kimberly Atkins Storer]

But what can we as individuals do.

[Jill Wine Banks]

To help tear this down?

[Kimberly Atkins Storer]

Because nothing is going to.

[Jill Wine Banks]

Not health insurance, not politicians, nothing is.

[Kimberly Atkins Storer]

Going to change as long as Citizens United. I think Barb has the answer.

[Barb McQuaid]

Well, I don't know if I have an answer. I have a response. First, thank you for the recommendation. We might go there. So Citizens United, as people probably know, is a 2010 Supreme Court decision that said corporations have the same First Amendment rights as individual and that therefore there can be no limitation on the amount of money that they contribute to an election as long as it does not go to a specific candidate and they don't coordinate with the candidate. So they can still do things like create these PACs and give millions of dollars. Like, you know, how is elon Musk pledging $45 million a month to Donald Trump? Because he's going to do it through a pac. And as long as it's done that way and he doesn't coordinate with Donald Trump, you know, he just says, kamala Harris is a Marxist. Was it leftist, Fascist, Leftist, Socialist.

[Kimberly Atkins Storer]

He doesn't coordinate.

[Barb McQuaid]

Yeah. Then it's okay. So it means that it's really unlimited spending. And, you know, what's an individual to do? People can really buy the election with these huge numbers. So to change it, I believe would take a constitutional amendment. I don't see that changing anytime soon.

[Jill Wine Banks]

Or a new Supreme Court, but I.

[Barb McQuaid]

Don'T see that happening anytime soon. But I do think there are some things we can do. It's not going to stop an Elon Musk from spending $45 million if he wants to. But one of the real challenges, I think, is dark money. And that is we don't know who's behind some of these things. You know, they create a PAC name called like the Red, White and Blue Grandmothers of America. Well, who could fault that? They sound lovely. When in fact, it might be gun manufacturers or some individual with a lot of money who wants to, you know, steer policy in a certain direction. So what we don't currently allow is for these super PACs to disclose who are their members. And so I think transparency is something that we could legislate and that could at least lift up the curtain for this dark money so we know who is behind it. I think that's the least we can do. And so asking your member of Congress to do that, I think, is one way. And there are some. There's the DISCLOSE Act. There are some pending bills out there that would achieve that.

[Joyce Vance]

Thank you.

[Jill Wine Banks]

Next question. My name is Diana, and my husband Peter and I just ate at the reopened Hexter's H O E X T E R apostrophe s on East 82nd for Smashburger. It was great.

[Barb McQuaid]

Sounds good.

[Jill Wine Banks]

My question I would love to ask each of you, but I'm going to direct it at you, Jill, the. Because I've watched you for many years. My son's close friend is the woman who was quoted in the Times as being prosecuting Diddy and going against him getting bail. So her name was there. What gave you the strength to be the person you are? You all have these amazing brains and strength, and you did it. And what gave you, Jill, what happened.

[Kimberly Atkins Storer]

That made you become Jim?

[Jill Wine Banks]

Years of therapy haven't helped me to answer that question. As I said, I have some law school classmates here and two of my female classmates. And I went to see Suffs, which I highly recommend, and eight at the Algonquin, which I also highly recommend. It was lovely and so nostalgic and so like a living room for dinner. And we were oddballs. And, you know, my parents raised me to think that I could do anything I wanted. I went to law school because I wanted to be a journalist like Kim. But when I was graduating, girls, as we were known, were offered jobs on the women's page, and I wanted to report on politics or law. So I went to law school thinking, well, then an editor will think I'm good enough to hire for that. Somehow I ended up practicing law, and I just sort of have this attitude of just do it. I just don't let the discrimination I faced ever stop me. I'm proud that while I may have been the first in most of my positions, I was not the last. I've tried to open doors. And as I said in the beginning, who would have ever thought I'd be sitting on the stage of the 92nd Street Y talking to a big audience.

[Barb McQuaid]

And not playing the guitar that I.

[Jill Wine Banks]

Could have predicted for sure.

[Joyce Vance]

Thank you, all four of you, for.

[Jill Wine Banks]

Keeping us from falling off the ledge. Thank you for the question. Okay, last question. Well, let's see. Yeah, yeah, it's gotta be. Last time.

[Barb McQuaid]

Last question.

[Jill Wine Banks]

How to so fight it out there, you know, Go ahead.

[Kimberly Atkins Storer]

My friend and I went to Serafina for lunch and that was very good.

[Joyce Vance]

I love Seraphina.

[Kimberly Atkins Storer]

My question Is, I guess, for Barb, I am wondering whether, in light of the really terrible, shockingly bad decisions that came out of the Supreme Court in the last term, if that's moved the needle for you at all on the issue of Supreme Court expansion. I know people like term limits, but even if this court didn't find them.

[Barb McQuaid]

Unconstitutional, it would take two decades for.

[Kimberly Atkins Storer]

That to even have an impact.

[Barb McQuaid]

Yeah. I have been a fan of the idea that the Supreme Court ought to expand to 13 justices.

[Joyce Vance]

Yes.

[Barb McQuaid]

Nine is not a magic number. Schoolhouse Rock 3 is a magic number. I digress. Throughout history, it's actually been different numbers. It's been five, it's been seven, it's been nine. And nine was set at a time when there were nine circuits around the country. Because each justice also serves as a circuit justice to handle their emergency petitions. We now have 13. 13 is the magic number. Circuits. So it does seem like 13 makes some sense. I do worry that if you keep expanding, it becomes an arms race.

[Joyce Vance]

Right.

[Barb McQuaid]

And every time Congress can expand it, it's 13, then it's 19, then it's 37, then it's 100.

[Jill Wine Banks]

Right.

[Barb McQuaid]

At some point, I think it's too big to really be a body, a conference that can get together.

[Kimberly Atkins Storer]

We have chairman panels. I worked for an appellate court that had 22 judges.

[Barb McQuaid]

Yeah. So maybe. But I think that at some point it could be too big. So I do think there is a magic number there. Maybe 13 is that magic number for now. There is also, President Biden put an idea that I really like, which is term limits of 18 years staggered so that every two years you've got more justices coming on, and every president gets an opportunity to appoint at least two. Now, it might take some time, but long term, it would shake out so that there would be more representation that's directly accountable to the people. So I think those are some ideas worth considering. Thank you.

[Jill Wine Banks]

I'm so, so sorry that we are out of time. And we thank you for having joined us at Sistersinlaw. But remember, we're going to be doing a selfie. And also, I want to remind you that we are selling some merch outside. Barb and I are selling books, and we will sign them, personalize them to you. Joyce has a QR code for signing up for her. Excellent, excellent, excellent. Mandatory reading, Substack Civil Disobedience. And Kimberly has a new independent. Well, not. It's our same producers. Thank you, Politicon, today and every day. Thank you very much. Please, let's hear it for Politicon.

[Barb McQuaid]

And.

[Jill Wine Banks]

Kimberly has some bookmarks I think that show her new so come out to the merch table.

[Kimberly Atkins Storer]

But first by design. Everyone follow justice by design.

[Jill Wine Banks]

Yes. And but for now, everybody stand up.

[Kimberly Atkins Storer]

Yeah. Don't leave. Don't leave. Stand up, don't leave.

[Jill Wine Banks]

And then we're going to want you and ourselves.

[Barb McQuaid]

Hi, I'm Joyce Vance.

[Joyce Vance]

And I'm Barb McLay.

[Barb McQuaid]

People confuse us all the time and I can see why. I saw why.

[Joyce Vance]

I mean we left nothing alone.

[Barb McQuaid]

Which one am I?

[Joyce Vance]

You're the tall one.

[Barb McQuaid]

That's right. Now I remember Vance.

[Joyce Vance]

The tall one.

[Jill Wine Banks]

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