Episode 212: Keep Calm And Carry On – #SistersInLaw
Podcast Information:
- Title: #SistersInLaw
- Host/Authors: Politicon Team – Joyce Vance, Jill Wine-Banks, Barb McQuade, and Kimberly Atkins Stohr
- Episode Title: Keep Calm And Carry On
- Release Date: November 30, 2024
- Description: Politicon's #SistersInLaw brings together a team of political and legal experts to dissect how government functions, tackle corruption, share wisdom, and provide insights on the latest in politics, law, and culture.
Thanksgiving Reflections and Season’s Greetings
The episode kicks off with a warm welcome from Joyce Vance at [00:10]. The hosts share their favorite Thanksgiving dishes, highlighting the importance of comfort food and cherished family traditions. Jill Wine-Banks reminisces about her husband Greg’s cornbread dressing recipe, while Barb McQuade praises a friend's impeccably juicy turkey and a nostalgic Watergate salad variation suggested by listeners.
Notable Quote:
Jill Wine-Banks [01:05]: "It includes a homemade skillet cornbread as the bread and a whole bunch of other yummy ingredients and absolutely no form of nuts or fruit, which is crucial to a good dressing."
Dismissing Trump’s Federal Criminal Cases
At [07:27], the discussion shifts to the recent dismissal of federal criminal cases against former President Donald Trump. Jill Wine-Banks raises concerns about whether Trump can ever be held accountable, given the dismissals by Judge Jack Smith without prejudice, allowing for potential retrials.
Barb McQuade elaborates on the legal hurdles required for reinitiating these cases:
"First, you need a Democrat in the White House willing to let DOJ go or to appoint a special counsel to continue Jack Smith's work... the Supreme Court that won't interfere and that will interpret official acts to allow both cases to proceed." ([07:27])
Joyce Vance provides context on the Office of Legal Counsel (OLC) memo that influenced the dismissal, emphasizing the non-political, policy-driven nature of the DOJ's decisions:
"The Office of Legal Counsel is just that. It's the legal counsel to the attorney General... These are people who think about policy in a very broad sense." ([10:16])
Notable Quote:
Joyce Vance [10:16]: "There are plenty of vibrant democracies that do prosecute their leaders. For instance, next week in Israel, Netanyahu, their prime minister, will be in the final phase of a public corruption trial."
DOJ Leadership and Merrick Garland’s Role
Jill Wine-Banks questions whether Attorney General Merrick Garland is at fault for the delays in prosecuting Trump, citing the impact of the Supreme Court's stance and the lengthiness of thorough investigations:
"Once we saw the Supreme Court the way it acted, I knew that there was no way that Garland could win even if he started right away." ([16:06])
Barb McQuade shares her initial reluctance to criticize Garland but acknowledges her growing concerns:
"I soon became critical because the facts demanded investigation. They were obvious. And I agree with what you just said." ([17:07])
Joyce Vance emphasizes the importance of doing things "the right way," advocating for immediate investigations to maintain integrity and public trust:
"My metric at DOJ was always that we should do the right things for the right reason in the right way." ([17:57])
The Potential Exodus of Federal Lawyers
At [24:39], the conversation delves into the looming threat facing federal lawyers under the incoming Trump administration. Barb McQuade draws parallels to her experiences during the Watergate era, stressing the critical role of career prosecutors in safeguarding democracy:
"When Leanne Jaworski said impeachment is the right way, impeachment was a viable option, there was bipartisanship..." ([16:06])
Joyce Vance discusses the ramifications of losing experienced federal lawyers, highlighting the challenges they face in remaining within a politicized DOJ:
"It's not about politics, it's about law. And to the extent that Pam Bondi or anyone else wants to politicize these offices, then we need career prosecutors to dig in and refuse to do that sort of bidding." ([26:55])
Barb McQuade underscores the vast majority of federal lawyers being non-political appointees, essential for maintaining DOJ's neutrality:
"Only 400 of the 44,000 lawyers in the government are non-career political appointees... they're the ones that make sure that DOJ is the Justice Department, no matter who's in the White House." ([26:55])
Elon Musk’s Threats Against Alex Vindman
Joyce Vance and Jill Wine-Banks address Elon Musk's recent comments threatening former National Security Council official Alex Vindman with treason charges, reflecting on the misuse of legal terminology and the dangers it poses to democratic norms.
Jill Wine-Banks critiques Musk’s understanding and application of treason:
"Elon Musk is... threatening to prosecute him... Treason is when someone conspires with a foreign government to wage war against the United States." ([40:53])
Barb McQuade clarifies the constitutional definition of treason, dismissing Musk's unfounded accusations:
"The Constitution specifically says treason... It requires a declaration of war. And as far as I know, there has been no declaration of war." ([42:48])
Joyce Vance warns about the implications of such public threats by influential figures:
"Musk... is already basically announcing how he's gonna run things. That's insane." ([44:46])
Notable Quote:
Joyce Vance [37:39]: "This is serious stuff. Treason is when someone conspires with a foreign government to wage war against the United States. This is serious, serious stuff."
Listener Q&A: Transition Ethics and Presidential Immunity
In the Q&A segment beginning at [49:18], listeners pose critical questions about presidential transitions and the implications of Supreme Court rulings on Trump's immunity.
Transition and Ethics Agreements
Jill Wine-Banks explains why Trump refused to sign the standard transition ethics agreements:
"Trump... refused to sign that agreement, saying we'll post our own ethics rules later on our website... he thinks it's better to play footsie with, goodness knows." ([49:59])
Supreme Court’s Ruling on Trump's Immunity
A listener inquires whether Trump's immunity allows him to break the law without consequences. Jill Wine-Banks bluntly affirms the concern:
"Yes, it does. Trump can do whatever he damn well pleases for the next four years and protect himself from any sort of liability." ([51:43])
Barb McQuade counters by asserting that aides and advisors won’t benefit from the same immunity, reinforcing accountability:
"The Constitution... defines treason... and impeachment is no longer viable. If they're following orders that are illegal, they are still accountable." ([53:50])
Joyce Vance expresses concern over the long-term implications and the potential for pardon abuses:
"Trump can just give him pardon, so, in essence, he can protect anybody... I really hope that I'm wrong." ([54:39])
Notable Quote:
Barb McQuade [53:11]: "They do not benefit from the Supreme Court immunity which was granted to Donald Trump... You are guilty."
Conclusion
The episode wraps up with the hosts urging listeners to stay informed and engaged with ongoing political and legal developments. They emphasize the importance of maintaining the integrity of federal institutions and the rule of law amidst political pressures and threats.
Joyce Vance closes with a call to action:
"See you next week with another episode. Hashtag Sisters in Law." ([55:31])
Key Takeaways
- Dismissal of Trump’s Cases: The dismissal without prejudice leaves room for future prosecutions, though significant legal and political hurdles remain.
- OLC Memo’s Impact: The Office of Legal Counsel’s policies play a crucial role in guiding DOJ decisions, highlighting the non-political stance essential for justice.
- Threat to Federal Lawyers: Incoming administration poses risks to career federal lawyers who uphold judicial integrity, with potential exodus threatening institutional knowledge.
- Elon Musk’s Remarks: Public threats by influential figures like Musk undermine legal norms and pose dangers to individuals like Alex Vindman.
- Transition Ethics and Immunity: Trump's refusal to sign transition ethics agreements and the implications of presidential immunity raise concerns about accountability and the rule of law.
Join the Conversation:
- Email: us@sistersinlawpoliticon.com
- Social Media: Tag #SistersInLaw on Twitter or other platforms.
- Show Notes: Available on politicon.com
Stay informed and engaged with the #SistersInLaw team as they navigate the complexities of politics, law, and culture to bring you insightful discussions and expert analyses.