#SistersInLaw Podcast Episode 227: "Giving Up Is Unforgivable"

Release Date: March 15, 2025
Host: Politicon
Guests: Joyce Vance, Barb McQuaid, Kimberly Atkins Stohr

Introduction and Book Announcement

The episode kicks off with Kimberly Atkins Stohr welcoming listeners back to #SistersInLaw alongside colleagues Joyce Vance and Barb McQuaid. The hosts promptly introduce exciting news from Joyce Vance:

Joyce Vance announces the launch of her first book, "Giving Up Is a Manual for Keeping a Democracy" (00:36). She emphasizes the importance of pre-orders and encourages listeners to support the release through various platforms. Vance explains that the book stems from a pivotal moment after the election loss of Kamala Harris, where the threat to democracy felt imminent. Inspired by President Joe Biden’s assertion that "giving up is unforgivable," Vance aims to explore the resilience of democracy and provide actionable insights to strengthen it. She shares anecdotes about governors Angus King of Maine and Jesse Ventura of Minnesota, who fostered high voter turnout by cultivating a pro-voting culture (02:14).

Barb McQuaid inquires about the practicality of Vance’s approach, to which Vance responds by highlighting the book’s focus on individual and collective actions to support democracy (03:38). The discussion underscores the book’s blend of historical analysis and legal perspectives to inspire readers to uphold democratic values.

Main Discussion Topics

A. Deportation of Mahmoud Khalil

Barb McQuaid introduces a pressing issue involving the Trump administration's attempt to deport Mahmoud Khalil, a lawful permanent resident and pro-Palestinian activist from Columbia University (10:34). Khalil was detained without clear charges, raising concerns about due process and the misuse of immigration laws.

Kimberly Atkins explains the legal intricacies, emphasizing the significance of a writ of habeas corpus, which mandates the government to justify detention (11:35). She highlights the lack of substantial evidence presented against Khalil and criticizes the administration’s reliance on vague statutes to justify his detention (14:17).

Joyce Vance delves deeper into the legal statutes used, specifically 8 U.S.C. § 1227(a)(4)(C), which allows deportation based on alleged foreign policy risks without concrete evidence (14:44). She argues that the government’s action appears to be retaliatory, aimed at silencing dissent rather than addressing genuine security concerns.

Barb McQuaid and Joyce Vance further discuss the procedural anomalies, such as Khalil’s sudden relocation to a federal detention center in Louisiana, which they interpret as an attempt to bypass more sympathetic jurisdictions (22:09). The conversation underscores the broader implications for due process rights and the potential chilling effect on lawful residents.

B. Executive Order Against Perkins Coie

Joyce Vance brings attention to a controversial executive order titled "Addressing Risks from Perkins Coie LLC," targeting the established law firm Perkins Coie (33:20). The order aims to sever government interactions with the firm, ostensibly due to its role in the Steele dossier investigation against Donald Trump.

Kimberly Atkins traces the origin of Trump’s animosity towards Perkins Coie, linking it to the firm’s involvement in political opposition research during the 2016 election (34:18). She criticizes the executive order as an overreach of presidential power, reminiscent of authoritarian tactics to punish dissenting entities.

Barb McQuaid highlights the legal ramifications, detailing the lawsuit filed by Williams & Connolly on behalf of Perkins Coie. The lawsuit challenges the executive order on multiple fronts, including First Amendment violations, due process infringements, and exceeding executive authority (37:25). McQuaid praises the firm’s bold stance, noting that the complaint was endorsed by multiple attorneys to underscore its seriousness.

Joyce Vance discusses the judicial response, referencing Judge Beryl Howell's issuance of a temporary restraining order to halt the enforcement of the executive order (40:26). Vance anticipates a swift legal battle, emphasizing the potential precedent it sets for executive overreach and the protection of legal firms from politically motivated attacks.

C. Supreme Court Takes Up Colorado Conversion Therapy Ban

Transitioning to broader civil rights issues, Kimberly Atkins informs listeners that the Supreme Court has agreed to review a challenge against Colorado’s ban on conversion therapy, a practice aimed at changing an individual's sexual orientation or gender identity (49:35).

Barb McQuaid outlines the case, where Kaylee Childs, a Christian counselor, argues that the ban infringes upon her First Amendment rights to free speech and religious exercise (50:22). The 10th Circuit Court of Appeals previously upheld the ban, citing stringent measures to protect LGBTQ individuals from the harms of conversion therapy.

Joyce Vance interprets the Supreme Court’s decision to take up the case as a potential indicator of shifting judicial perspectives, especially in light of recent rulings that favor religious freedoms over regulatory restrictions. She references the Masterpiece Cake case, where the Court favored a baker’s right not to create a cake for a same-sex wedding (53:59), suggesting a trend towards expanding religious exemptions.

Barb McQuaid and Joyce Vance debate the broader implications, warning that a Supreme Court victory for the challengers could embolden similar attempts to undermine professional regulations across various fields, including law and medicine (54:22). They stress the importance of maintaining a balance between religious freedoms and anti-discrimination protections to safeguard civil rights.

Audience Questions

The episode transitions to addressing listener questions, fostering an interactive dialogue.

Question from Nancy: “We all love your chicken. Are you worried about bird flu? How do you recommend protecting your flock?” (62:46)

Joyce Vance shares meticulous measures taken to safeguard her backyard chickens against bird flu, including wastewater surveillance, strict hygiene protocols, and habitat modifications to deter wild birds (62:46). She poignantly contrasts the administration’s lack of support with personal preparedness strategies.

Question from Dan: “What is the definition of treason and does it change from one administration to another? For example, if Trump's actions happened in the Reagan era, would it be considered treason?” (65:05)

Barb McQuaid clarifies the legal definition of treason, emphasizing that it strictly involves levying war against the United States or providing aid to its enemies, as per federal statutes. She asserts that since the U.S. is not in a declared war, actions by any administration, including Trump’s, do not constitute treason (65:05).

Question from SC: “Does the Department of Education fall under the executive branch, and is Trump able to unilaterally dismantle it?” (66:07)

Kimberly Atkins confirms that the Department of Education is part of the executive branch but explains that dismantling it requires congressional action. She highlights that executive orders cannot unilaterally dissolve federal agencies, reinforcing the separation of powers (66:07).

Conclusion

The episode concludes with brief acknowledgments of sponsor messages and a light-hearted exchange about pets, leaving listeners with actionable insights on democratic engagement, legal defenses against executive overreach, and the evolving landscape of civil rights jurisprudence.

Notable Quotes

• Joyce Vance (02:14): “Giving up is unforgivable.”

• Kimberly Atkins (14:17): “Donald Trump cannot outrun democracy.”

• Joyce Vance (19:50): “An eight-month pregnant woman who is an American citizen who's committed no crime.”

• Joyce Vance (28:14): “This is Trump scapegoating Jews with favoritism. That is a time-honored path for authoritarian regimes.”

• Barb McQuaid (37:25): “There are hundreds of lawyers at this law firm. So anybody at the law firm is bound by this.”

• Joyce Vance (40:26): “This is gonna backfire on the government, though, because Mr. Khalil's lawyers will be able to argue that they did this for disingenuous, malicious purposes.”

Insights and Conclusions

Episode 227 of #SistersInLaw delves into critical issues threatening democratic institutions and civil liberties in the United States. From the unauthorized detention of a lawful permanent resident to the executive branch’s punitive measures against a prominent law firm, the discussion underscores the fragility of checks and balances under administrations prone to overreach. The Supreme Court’s willingness to engage with challenges against conversion therapy laws signals ongoing battles over LGBTQ rights and religious freedoms. Through informed analysis and passionate discourse, the hosts advocate for vigilance and proactive measures to uphold democratic principles and protect individual rights.

Listeners are encouraged to engage actively in democratic processes, support organizations defending civil liberties, and remain informed about legal developments impacting their freedoms.