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- [00:00]
Kimberly Atkins Store
Foreign. Welcome back to Sisters in Law with Jill Wine Banks and me, Kimberly Atkins store. Both Barb and Joyce are away, but they will be back next week, so don't you worry. And the new resistance mini tote is, is ready for you to pre order in our merch store. So go to politicon.com merch and get yours now. They're gonna sell out. They will be hotter than the Trader Joe's model. This is the accessory of the summer. Make sure that you get it. Now onto the show where we will be discussing the Supreme Court allowing the Trump administration's ban on transgender service members to go into place. And also some of the other, well, less than consistent legal arguments that the Trump administration has been making in many of the challenges that are making their way up to the courts. But before we get to that, I want to ask Jill. You know, I chatted with you, Jill, a little while last week and you seemed a little nervous about an event you had coming up and not knowing if you were out of your element. I assured you that you were going to, that you were going to kill it, that you were just going to nail it and knock it out of the park. And you did. But tell us what you did, Jill.
- [01:28]
Jill Wine Banks
So I was asked by Jack Pack, a wonderful organization that supports great causes, to have a conversation with Chelsea Handler. That Chelsea Handler, that Chelsea Handler, a seven time New York Times bestselling author, a comedian, a producer, an actor. And I was like, that is so not me. I'm a legal nerd, not a funny person. How am I gonna do this? And they're somehow convince me. And as everyone who listens to this show knows, I never turn down a challenge and I never let fear stop me. And that's probably advice I would have for everybody is if you want to do it, just do it. And I thought, well, this could be sort of fun. And so I did it. And then they pre cleared some questions, which was really hard because I'm used to just having conversation. And they said, no, these are the questions she's wants to answer and you gotta go with these. And I said, well, can I tweak them now? I define tweak probably different than they did. So I tweaked them so that I thought they were acceptable, but because I was sticking to a script, I had it on my lap as we were sitting down talking and then they slipped off my lap and she went to reach for it. I said, ah, forget it, let's just talk. And that was the best thing that ever happened. So we just had a really nice conversation. And she is really well educated, well read, really smart and funny. And we had a great time. The audience was very appreciative. And, you know, I had even said, I'm not funny, so I don't know why I'm doing this. And everybody came up to me and afterwards and said, you are funny. Even on Sisters in Law, you're very funny. Don't think you're not funny. So that was a really, really great experience for me. And she couldn't have been nicer. I'll actually. I'll post one of the pictures of the two of us from the show.
- [03:26]
Kimberly Atkins Store
Excellent. That is really, really cool.
- [03:27]
Jill Wine Banks
See, I always do. It was fun.
- [03:29]
Kimberly Atkins Store
I know you could do it. And don't say you're not funny. You are hilarious show. I'm Banks. You are the funniest people.
- [03:34]
Jill Wine Banks
I may be funny, but it's not always deliberate. That's the problem. You know, it's, like, really weird. I know the first time I gave a speech and the audience laughed when I hoped they would laugh, I was like, oh, my God. They're responding the way they're supposed to. It was one of the best things ever.
- [03:51]
Kimberly Atkins Store
Good. I'm really, really glad that that worked.
- [03:53]
Jill Wine Banks
Well, thanks for asking about that, Kim.
- [03:54]
Kimberly Atkins Store
Of course.
- [03:55]
Jill Wine Banks
I know you have a graduation coming up. Do you want to say what's happening?
- [03:58]
Kimberly Atkins Store
You know, it's May. It's that time of year where we're thinking about, you know, young people heading out into the future. And my stepson is graduating from college this month. I'm very proud of him. He will soon be an Emory grad. And it just. Yes, it's great. But it just made me think about, you know, advice that I would give to young people moving forward. You know, advice that I wanted to hear. And I think mine continues to be, look, don't put too much pressure on yourself. This is the time for you to figure things out. And I know there is a lot of pressure about getting a job or doing the right thing or what industry I should be working in and all of that. And those are important questions, but those. This is the time for you to figure that stuff out. And I often think that young people put the world, the weight of the world on their shoulders. And those who do are the ones that are really gonna do great work. Cause they care so much and do that work and focus. But also take time to really explore where your place is in this world. I am so proud of my stepson, James. But he also has A great family support system. And I would also tell if they don't look for the support, you can build your own support system. Look for the people, whether they are professors or school administrators or neighbors or your friends, parents, or people who will give you the kind of support you need as you start your journey in the world.
- [05:30]
Jill Wine Banks
That's really great advice. And so congratulations, James, and congratulations, Greg, on the graduation of your son. That's fabulous. And to you, Kim, for being involved in all of this. I would add to what you said, sort of an extension of it is keep an open mind. You know, you may decide on a particular job or to go on with school or whatever, but, you know, it may not be the right thing. Just pay attention to whether you're really enjoying it, whether it's really using the skills you want to use. And if it isn't, think about what job might take better advantage of your skills and interests and be willing to take a risk and move on. So many of us, you know, get trapped into, well, I'm in this job. I got to stay. And I'm not saying you shouldn't stay for some amount of time to make it obvious to a future potential employer that you are a serious employee. You can't just keep jumping around. But really keep in mind what makes you happy. That's a really important thing, too.
- [06:41]
Kimberly Atkins Store
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- [07:57]
Jill Wine Banks
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- [09:19]
Kimberly Atkins Store
Well, this week the Supreme Court allowed the Trump administration's ban on transgender service members and recruits to take effect. If that sounds like deja vu, that's because this is something that has happened before. If you recall in Trump's first term this there was also a ban. It was not quite as broad on transgender people serving in the military, but it was paused by a lower court as it was in this case. And the Supreme Court then too cleared the way for it to be put into effect before ultimately the Biden administration reversed course. So Jill, tell me a little bit about this case and I'm happy to be talking with you about it because I am lucky enough to know someone who broke gender barriers in the military. Jill Wynne Banks, the very first woman to serve as general counsel for the Army. I'm sure you have thoughts about this. What are your thoughts? Jill?
- [10:20]
Jill Wine Banks
Well, I do. And as someone who has been removed from the history of the Pentagon along with the Secretary of the army under whom I served, because he was the first black secretary of the army and I was the first woman general counsel. And so we have been obliterated. There has been some pushback and maybe they'll put us back in. But the important thing is that there's now a history of successful open service of transgender people and there's really no excuse for re implementing a ban. And no matter how carefully worded the executive order was and it was mean and evil. And you know, as you and I have often talked about the cruelty as part of the point when we talk about immigration. That's the point. When we talk about trans people, it's the point. So the executive order that led to the Department of Defense policy memo that really, in depth, gets rid of everything that has to do with either trans medical care or trans service, despite a successful number of years of successful service. And I even know from personal experience, because I was on a committee that looked at sexual assault in the military. And in talking to a lot of soldiers, sailors, and airmen, I can tell you that they accept gay and trans people. They are not uncomfortable as long as the person is doing a good job and no one is asking, no one has ever gotten special treatment as a trans person. So from a policy point of view, it's wrong. To me, from a legal point of view, it is equally awful. We have equal rights protections in our Constitution, and this is a clear violation of equal rights. There is no medical justification. And I think you and I have talked about this, Kim. You know, the first reason that they gave was because it hurt the lethality of the service and the compatibility and unit cohesion.
- [12:31]
Kimberly Atkins Store
Right. There were all of these justifications. Unit cohesion, readiness, lethality. But at the time, James Mattis did not immediately implement a policy, even though the president, President Trump signed an executive order back then, too. He said, well, wait a minute, let's study it. And he put it out to experts. And a report came back, and Secretary Mattis, Mad Dog Mattis, actually said, you know what? Based on this report, I recommend not doing this.
- [13:03]
Jill Wine Banks
Exactly. And so now they've changed their tune or their argument. And let me just. Before I go on to what they're now arguing, I want to point out that women were subjected to the same thing. We can't let women into all these units because it will hurt unit cohesion. The mission will never be accomplished. And when they were forced to consider integrating women, they did some studies, but they only would test a unit up to 30% female fill because they felt if there were more than 30%, for sure, the unit couldn't succeed. And that proved to be completely wrong. I insisted that they test higher amounts, and 100% could work. 50% could work. It just. It was the wrong argument. So now they're arguing that it's an illness and we can't have ill people serving. And of course, there's no medical support for that. It's a ridiculous argument, and it's just wrong. And I'm hoping that SCOTUS will not fall for this. But, Kim, I want to ask you as our Supreme Court expert, what do you think the fact that they let the ban take effect, does that mean to you, as I think it does to me, that it indicates that they are going to allow the ban to take effect because otherwise you have the status quo, a ban that took effect but didn't take effect because the court stopped it. Now they're going to let it take effect for months while it's being argued in court, and then they're going to have to undo it. It seems to me they wouldn't do that if they weren't going to allow it to stay in effect. What do you think?
- [14:48]
Kimberly Atkins Store
I think you might be right. I mean, I think anytime, whatever the Supreme Court lets stand as the case makes its way through the courts has the advantage. Right. So I think back when, before Dobbs, when a different case was pending, when it came to a really, really almost universal abortion ban at the state level and they let that stand, we at that point on just bas acted as if we knew that Roe v. Wade was going to be overturned in the. Whatever it was. I think it was a couple months before it actually happened. I think we sort of were bracing for it. So in that sense, I think generally it's right. But in this case, there are a couple of caveats that I would put into that which it could. One goes in either way. One is that there is currently pending a Supreme Court case that is testing the constitutionality of state laws that ban gender affirming care. And so to me, if that's pending and they let this ban go into place, that would be a tea leaf. Not nothing, not anything definitive, but a tea leaf. That the court is very likely in that other case to allow states to ban gender affirming care. Because if they're willing to let a trans ban, which very much is about gender affirming care in the military, which, you know, members of the military get healthcare support and coverage for the things that they need just like anybody else. And so that would be one thing, you know, ongoing treatment for someone who has made a transition. If the Supreme Court's gonna let states ban it, why wouldn't they let the military ban it too? What cuts on the other side though, is that the court has a growing animosity toward nationwide injunctions. Right. Both Justice Kagan's complained about it, Gorsuch has complained about it. Across the ideological spectrum, the Supreme Court generally takes a dim view of that. And so maybe this aligns with that. So in this case, it's very complex. I'm not gonna make a prediction on it, but one Thing that I do know that I think weighs in favor of the court ruling to allow this trans man is when it comes to the military, the court definitely takes a broad view of executive authority. And if this is something that the executive wants, and in this case, there's no ambiguity. You have the Secretary of Defense, so long as he keeps his job. And the president right on point in this. In my newsletter, I pointed out, like, the really disgusting thing that the Secretary of Defense said about our service members who are transgender. And it's really offensive. So they are in on this. But if the court takes a broad view of executive authority, I think that it will. I think that it will stand. So Mother's Day is coming up and here's something about my mom. She almost never smiles in photographs, which is wild because she really is hilarious. And so on the aura frame that we have in our kitchen, every now and again a picture of my mom and me pops up and she's smiling. And Greg always says, look, it's a picture with your mom smiling. And I get to see it. I get to see it a lot because of my aura frames. You know, one of the best parts of Mother's Day is reflecting on the amazing memories you've made with your family and getting excited about how many more there are. And, you know, if you have a family member who tends not to smile, but you captured them with a smile, it's a great place to put it. The holiday is fast approaching, so we wanted to make sure our listeners get their moms something nice. And that's why we wanted to tell you about aura frames. They make unique and stylish digital picture frames that make displaying and sharing your favorite memories easy and fun.
- [19:04]
Jill Wine Banks
It sure beats an old fashioned photo album. And you know, a lot of gifts get a big fuss when they're opened and are never looked at again. That's not the case when you gift someone an aura frame. That someone could even be you. If you get your mom one for Mother's Day, it's a great gift. With an aura frame, you're creating amazing ways to stay connected to the important people in your life and remember the great times you've shared by looking at the pictures. With summer only a far off dream in Chicago right now, an aura frame is the perfect way to enjoy the memories of past summers. And for me, who loves travel, it's the best way to relive the best vacations. And there's unlimited space, so you can always add photos from new adventures.
- [19:49]
Kimberly Atkins Store
Yeah, I really like how easy it is to change up photos if you, you know, want to add some or you just have a trip or you want to just switch them out to change things up. It's really as easy as a swipe on your phone. Aura Frames was named the best digital photo frame by Wirecutter and featured in 49095 gift guides last year. And that's for a reason. So next time you need to call your mom or see your smile, you can always send her a new pic of you from that trip you're telling her all about right from your phone. But the truth is, no matter what role someone has in your life, everyone loves an Aura frame. Don't let your favorite shared moments be forgotten every time the photos in the frame catch your eye. It's such a warm and wonderful moment.
- [20:39]
Jill Wine Banks
I know I already said this, but it comes with unlimited storage. And so all those photos on your phone that you never look at because you can't find them, transfer them to the Aura frame. All you need is the free Aura app and a WI FI connection and you can upload as many photos and videos as you want. And right now, Aura has a great deal for Mother's Day. For a limited time, listeners can save on the perfect gift by visiting auraframes.com to get $35 off plus free shipping on their best selling Carver Mat frame. That's a U R A frames.com promo code sisters and support the show by mentioning us at the checkout. Terms and conditions apply. And the link is in the show notes. So, Kim, I'd like to change to a new subject that has multiple parts. It seems to me the Trump administration is, I think the kindest word would be duplicitous in making legal arguments. It seems to me they're making arguments that are based on political views or plain outright politics, not on the law or principle. And I can think of a number of examples, and one of them actually cuts in favor of a position that I support. So I'm going to start with the good one and then you can go to some of the bad ones. The good one is to my surprise, although I know I've talked to you and you weren't surprised. The Trump administration is continuing the Biden position in favor of mifepress. Don't. They are going to continue to argue that it can't be shut down. And that was a surprise because of course they're against everything that has to do with women's reproductive freedom. And they have certainly changed positions on voting rights. They've changed positions on environmental protections. They've changed their minds on a lot of policy issues. So I was surprised that they went ahead with this one. And you weren't. Tell me why you weren't.
- [22:58]
Kimberly Atkins Store
Because this administration and also those. I'm gonna expand it out even broader, because when it comes to the fight against things like mifepristone, it's not just the Trump administration, but the conservative evangelical movement that helps fuel it. They haven't always kept things consistent. So if you listen to the conservatives, when it came to mifepristone, and this, of course, is part of the medical abortion treatment, that it was dangerous, that it made it more likely that women could have some sort of complication, both things are false. It is among the safest ways to have an abortion. It reduces the likelihood of adverse complications. In fact, more than half the majority of abortions that happen in America use. Are done medically and use mifepristone, in part because doctors in the American Medical association and others recommend that because it is the safest way. They were still claiming that it was dangerous, that it put most of all. And this was what happened in the challenge that ultimately ended up at the courts, that it puts religious doctors in danger of having to rescue a poor person who took mifepristone and is suffering a complication. And that treatment. Treatment may mean actually doing an abortion. I mean, just. This is fiction. It's literal science fiction. What they were arguing, not only was it a bad legal argument, it is unpopular. And I think that's the reason, sadly, it has nothing to do with the law, nothing to do with legal or statutory interpretation or constitutional interpretation. It's just. They saw how unpopular it was to attack mifepristone and other abortion drugs. And they are. They don't want that smoke. So they're changing their mind legally. Because what it really is, is politically. And that's exactly what you're not supposed to do at the doj. It is perfectly fine. And it's actually really. It is not at all unusual for an administration to change positions with pending cases at the, you know, at the Justice Department level and say, you know, the previous administration argued this way, but we have a different view. That in itself is not nefarious when it's done for political reasons. It is. And it's the same when you're keeping the same position for political reasons. And that's not how it's supposed to happen.
- [25:32]
Jill Wine Banks
Right. And this is one that will, I suppose, help them because it is so unpopular that they can't risk the political consequences of it. And as you said, the Department of Justice is supposed to act based on the law, the Constitution, and, And not based on politics. And this is pure.
- [25:53]
Kimberly Atkins Store
Interpretations can differ, but this isn't that way. And since we just talked about trans rights, I just wanna say very briefly before we move on, that's another area. Like, they tried this military readiness argument and it was just a bomb. So now they're coming back with, no, no, wait a minute, wait a minute. It's a medical disorder. Gender dysphoria is a medical disorder that is unacceptable for a member of the military to have. Again, factually. Says who? No, it's not. We're talking about a. A tiny percentage of troops are trans. Like in overall, when you're talking about everyone, every single one of them should be respected. I'm not saying that to minimize them. I'm saying this to say this isn't some. Even if it were a medical condition or a disorder, which it isn't, it. It isn't something that threatens anything about the military any more than at this point, measles would be. And I don't see them doing a meas. Measles ban.
- [26:51]
Jill Wine Banks
So, like, I. Yeah, no, I mean, if you look at what doctors say, the medical field says, this is not a disease, it's not a mental illness, and it shouldn't be banned. It's really just a policy. Not even policy. It's just a bias that is shared by this particular MAGA administration. And it's wrong. And, you know, we didn't mention this when we were talking about the trans ban, but one of the plaintiffs in one of. There are several cases pending says that she has had over 200. What is it, thousand or $2 million worth of training that is being lost. She has served as an aviator for 18 years successfully in the military, and now they want to kick her out and give her very. By the way, they're upping the ante for if you resign voluntarily, if you leave the military voluntarily, they're giving very generous payouts, just like they're now offering to immigrants. If you leave, we'll give you $1,000. Which actually, that doesn't seem very generous to me. No, very not generous. And also probably a trap. If you go in to get your thousand dollars, you're going to be on a plane out of there immediately. So don't worry.
- [28:11]
Kimberly Atkins Store
I would be worried. I would be worried about that, too. I would be definitely worried about that.
- [28:17]
Jill Wine Banks
Exactly. So, Kim, can you think of some other cases where you feel like Politics or political views. Cruelty have played a role in a change in how they are arguing in court?
- [28:33]
Kimberly Atkins Store
Yeah. Oh, totally. I mean, I think everything about the immigration cases are made with duplicitous arguments. I think that's maybe one of the easiest ones to do because the administration does have broad powers when it comes to immigration. They do. So if they really just wanted to increase the number of deportations, say, that's the goal, There are any number of perfectly legally unassailable ways for them to do that. They can just say, you know, you violated the law. You're gonna go through this process, and we are going to do everything we can to deport. We are seeking deportation. We are letting you know, get ready. And so long as the people who are being targeted for deportation get process, they are likely on the losing side of that. It will take a little time. But what this administration wants to do is get people on planes and send them into these detention centers that are. That have been compared by experts, not just my word, by experts to be like gulags, because they like the visual of it. Again, the cruelty is the point, and you can't do that. You can't not give them process. So they made up the idea that they're affiliated with gangs. This is because the last time when they tried to use Covid restrictions and say that they had, they presented a risk of disease spreading. Again, a atrocious racist lie, racist stereotype that has been used against immigrants since, you know, time immemorial. But now they're saying, oh, no, the gang members, they're dangerous. And in the case of someone like Kilmar Abrego Garcia, he's actually had an order to not. Not allowing him to be sent to El Salvador because he and his family faced threats from gangs over there. And they've turned that on his head and created this lie about rampant gang, you know, associations of all of these people that they've round up, which just simply isn't factually true, to try to create some false emergency to send them out. We've already seen a judge finally slapped down the use of the alien enemies act in this way. I hope we see more of that. But that is a terribly duplicitous argument and different than the argument that the administration made in the past. I think to me, that's the clearest example.
- [30:56]
Jill Wine Banks
Oh, gosh. Listening to you, I have a half a dozen things that I just feel like I have to say. And so I'm going to say them. They're sort of a random Assortment of things. But you mentioned the word emergency. And it's not just the Alien Enemies act that he's doing, which, by the way, there is a intelligence memo that says there's actually no reason to believe that the Maduro government has anything to do with the gangs. And so when they went to court and said that they knew they were lying. I'm sorry, that is really, to me, that's a disparable offense. But also going to emergency. There are a lot of other emergencies. The tariffs are based on emergency. And by the way, all of these appeals to the Supreme Court, there are suddenly emergencies. What is the emergency on the trans ban? It's been in effect without any harm for several years under Biden Open Service of transgender people. Why is that an emergency? Why would the Supreme Court even think that's an emergency? Okay, so that's one thing. But the other that I have to say is the first thing that flashed in my mind was Donald Trump saying due process in response to Kristen Welker on Meet the Press. Do you have to support the Constitution? Do you have to implement? Well, I don't know. I'm not a lawyer. I don't know. I don't know. And besides, due process would take so long, we'd have to have a million, 2 million, 3 million. And I'm pretty much quoting Donald Trump in one of his not lucid moments, which seem to me more and more frequently. It would take too much time and it would get in my way. So.
- [32:37]
Kimberly Atkins Store
No.
- [32:38]
Jill Wine Banks
So think about what he's saying. His oath of office is to defend and protect the Constitution, to support our laws. And he's saying, I don't know if I have to implement the Constitution. I don't know about that. That is horrifying to me. That's one of the horrible things they're arguing. And they're also arguing that the executive branch should control the Supreme Court in every way except its case decisions. I. Oh, I. Yeah.
- [33:09]
Kimberly Atkins Store
I mean, this court may be.
- [33:10]
Jill Wine Banks
Laugh at it, but it's not funny. It's really.
- [33:13]
Kimberly Atkins Store
It's not funny. It's not funny. It really isn't funny. I laugh because this court may be weak in a lot of ways, but there is no way on greener that this court is letting go of Marbury v. Madison and letting the executive take it over. If that's what you think you. You got with your three nominees.
- [33:32]
Jill Wine Banks
Well, they're limiting. They've started at least with. We should be in charge of the administration of the court and the budget of the court. And the ethics of the court, who are they to set their own ethics rules? Oh, my God. That is the end of the independent third branch of government. And it was part of our Constitution that this would be an independent branch. The executive branch cannot take control of the judicial branch, which is separate and independent. But again, that's based on what they want the result to be, not what the Constitution says. So it is another example of the duplicitous arguments that the executive branch is making. So, Kim, I mean, these are some really good examples, but there are so many things that I have seen this week that have me upset. I don't know if they all fit into the duplicitous, but terrifying and horrible. The Voice of America is now going to be used by Oan, one of the most far right wing, one of the people who had to settle with smartmatic because they lied about them having a far right wing organization be the news source. It's like having tassels, which the Soviet Union had as its mouthpiece. It's a propaganda tool where we are going to be paying, we taxpayers are going to be paying to broadcast Trump propaganda. And that is horrible. Texas decided to keep the bail money it collected from migrants and then deported them before they could appear in court and get their money back. They're keeping it. I hope that every lawyer in Texas is listening here and will go and represent those people to get their money back, because it is really disgusting. I don't think it's legal to be deporting people to third countries, countries they have no relationship with. Countries that, by the way, violate not only our constitution because they're horrible places, but international law. You cannot deport people to places where they will be tortured. Either. Their home country, where they're seeking asylum here because of torture, but but also to third countries that are known for their torture. I think there's just a whole lot going on that makes me really worried about our democracy and what we need to do and some of the risible arguments that the Trump administration is making to undo what is the law of our land.
- [36:19]
Kimberly Atkins Store
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- [37:11]
Jill Wine Banks
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- [39:00]
Kimberly Atkins Store
Yes, so I was at the First Circuit Judicial Conference, which is every circuit has a conference. I believe it's every other year or some conferences may have different timing, but they get together with the trial level judges and the appellate level judges, as well as other stakeholders, professors, clerks, some journalists like me on occasion. And it's where they do, you know, they both have private meetings to do the business of the court, because that's, as you said, the job of the court, not the job of the executive to manage how the judiciary is run, but also have panel discussions with some speakers. And I was there to talk about the relationship between the judiciary and the press. But the keynote was Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson, who handles appeals that come out of the First Circuit, which is made up of New England and Puerto Rico, which is why we were in Puerto Rico. Every justice I think we've mentioned before, every justice is assigned a specific circuit. So when appeals come through, they are first referred to that justice before they are referred to the rest of the court. And so she was. That is why she was there. But for her normal Q and A that she was scheduled to have first, she took some time to direct the audience, again, full of federal judges directly to decry the attacks that have been being taking place against these judges. She did not mention Donald Trump or the Trump administration by name. But what she did say, and I'm gonna read a little bit of it, was while I have the podium right now, let me address what I think is the elephant in the room, which is the relentless attacks and disregard and disparagement that judges around the country and perhaps many of you are now facing on a daily basis. She goes on to say, these attacks are not random. They seem designed to intimidate those of us who serve in this critical capacity. The attacks are not, are also not isolated incidents. They ultimately risk undermining our Constitution and the rule of law. And she calls them an attack on our democracy. And she got a standing ovation. And I was so glad that her remarks were covered with by the press, because I think we as Americans need to see more people from the high court saying very plainly, as people in this administration and others, because it's not just coming from Washington, say that they can defy court orders or claim to be above the courts or try to take them over in their administration and say, no, no, that is not how this Constitution works. We need a free and independent judiciary that operates without fear or favor. That's how they're supp to work. And that from the highest jurists of the land that they get that kind of support. And there is that kind of condemnation. And I, frankly, I don't know about you, Jill, have been very disappointed in the Chief Justice. I know technically the chief justice doesn't really have any more power than the other justices on the court. He's one of nine votes, but he has some administrative duties, but he also has the bully pulpit. And I think, as someone who I have been told time and time again by experts, cares very deeply about the court. He's an institutionalist. He cares about its role. He has said the most milquetoast things. And even this week in comments at an event in Buffalo, his Hometown yes, he said that the, the judiciary should be independent. He said that before when asked specifically about calls to impeach justices who give rulings that they don't like, he started his comments by saying, well I've already spoken on that. No sir, you need to get up and speak about it some more. You need to say it not in answer to a question. You need to say it forcefully the way that your most junior colleague on the court just did. We need more of that. That shouldn't be partisan, that shouldn't be ideological. That should be seen as a first and foremost part of your job. So I would respectfully ask the Chief justice to use the same energy that Justice Jackson did to also give just as strong of condemnation. Jill I really wish he'd do that. I don't know why he won't.
- [43:26]
Jill Wine Banks
It's hard to say why. He did object to the calls for impeachment of judges Justices.
- [43:33]
Kimberly Atkins Store
Well, he did do that, give credit where it's due. But I feel like he's doing the very least because perhaps do you think it's because he knows that not every justice on the Court takes that position.
- [43:46]
Jill Wine Banks
He is a centrist and he has become a critical vote, as has Justice Barrett. Amy Coney Barrett is the two of them are where the court will decide or not decide. And so I hesitate to say too much bad about him. His remarks in Buffalo, as you said, were not as, as vigorous as perhaps we would have wanted. But he was very clear in saying an independent judiciary is a key feature of the constitutional system and it has to continue. And it's a co equal branch separate from the others. And we are the ones who have the authority to interpret the Constitution and the laws and that includes any acts of the President. He did say it's not just the laws that Congress enacts but the acts of the President. So I guess I'm just pushing back a little cause I completely agree with you. But I just wanna give some credit that he did not just let it pass completely.
- [44:54]
Kimberly Atkins Store
Well, he didn't let it pass completely. I was wanting him to at the top say something at this moment in our history and not just be asked a question. And for those you can go to C Span and see his responses in in total, it was about halfway through this Q and A session where he'd already talked about everything from his clerks to all kinds of other things. When he was the question was put to him. That's where we got some reaction at all. The second question and yes, the first one about the independent judiciary. He said all the things that one would expect one to say. In the second question about whether judges should be impeached, he, he's, he started off by saying, well, I've already stated this as if he's, as if he's done the thing. Like as if he's already made the statement and it, and it's all put to rest now. And I think with his. And I wasn't, I pushed back to saying that I was talking bad about him. I was not saying, I was not talking bad at him at all. And this has nothing to do with his ideological positions on the bench, whether he's front right center. This should be non ideological. As an institutionalist who cares about the credibility of this court, as somebody who is not living on Mars and knows that one of the biggest reason this court's credibility has taken a hit was the immunity decision that he wrote that clearly the president himself thinks gives him power that it doesn't. That he's the one. He's the one. It shouldn't fall to Ketanji Brown Jackson, but good for her. He's the one that needs to set the record straight on no uncertain terms. And he just does not seem to be built for that. And I think the nation is worse off because of it.
- [46:37]
Jill Wine Banks
It.
- [46:47]
Kimberly Atkins Store
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- [47:14]
Jill Wine Banks
Hey Kim, my cookware, until I got this Hexclad was older than you are.
- [47:21]
Kimberly Atkins Store
Oh my goodness.
- [47:21]
Jill Wine Banks
I'm not kidding. But Hexclad has changed my life because when it says nonstick, it really, really, really means it. It has completely redefined the game with their hybrid technology by combining the durability of stainless steel nonstick ease and the versatility of cast iron without the weight of cast iron, I will have to add. Better yet, it's all wrapped up in one gorgeous, sleek design. This cookware isn't just a kitchen essential, it's a kitchen upgrade. Best of all, it is super easy to clean. Even my husband doesn't complain when I cook and he has to clean up.
- [47:58]
Kimberly Atkins Store
Yeah, that's real. Both the easy to clean and the weight of it. Like I you, I like cast iron a lot because I like to do things that that go from the stovetop into the oven, like the same pan. But you could do that with Hexclad and it's not nearly as heavy. The cleanup is so much easier. That is really a game changer and I was a little wary of taking it from the stove to the oven, but you really can do it and it works beautifully. And now since we're hyping Hexclad, I need to tell you about their pepper mill. It has the perfect mix of precision and elegance, so you'll feel like a pro every time you season your dishes. You won't have to do that salt BAE move anymore. It's cooler now to do the Hexclad move when you're salting your food. And if it's good enough for Gordon Ramsay. Yes, that Gordon Ramsay, you know it's top notch. He trusts Hexclad in both his home and Michelin star kitchen. And your sisters do too. Plus, with their lifetime warranty, you can rest easy knowing you're investing in cookware that'll last a lifetime. So don't wait. This will not be a kitchen nightmare for you. It will be a kitchen dream. For a limited time only, our listeners get 10% off your order with our exclusive link or take advantage of their crazy good Mother's Day deal. Just head to hexclad.com sisters spring is.
- [49:21]
Jill Wine Banks
The time for fresh starts, so why not kick off the season with an upgrade to the best cookware on the market? For a very limited time only, shop the Hexclad Mother's Day sale for up to get this 49% off site wide and a free gift with your purchase. When you order one of their best selling bundles with our exclusive link, just head to hexclad.com sisters support our show and check them out at hexclad.com that's H E X C L-A- dash dot com sisters. Make sure to let them know we sent you Bon appetit. Let's eat with hexclad's revolutionary cookware. The link is in our show notes.
- [50:14]
Kimberly Atkins Store
Now we have reached what is truly we're not kidding. We really mean it. It's truly our favorite part of the show, which is answering your questions. You can email us at sisters in law politicon.com or use hashtag Sisters in Law in your socials to ask us your questions. We'll try to answer some right there in your feed, but if Those that we can't get to there and we don't get to in this episode keep trying. We really do like answering the questions. We can't answer everyone, but we do our best. Our first question is from Carolyn, who asked, what's the difference between undocumented immigrants and asylum seekers? UJIL that's a great question.
- [50:53]
Jill Wine Banks
I love this question, Carolyn and it is important to understand the difference. Undocumented means someone who enters the country without any documents. They have not applied for or at least have not been granted a visa to enter the country and they have come in some other way an asylum.
- [51:13]
Kimberly Atkins Store
See, or they overstayed their visa or.
- [51:15]
Jill Wine Banks
They overstayed their visa that could become an undocumented person. But an asylum seeker is someone who has fled their home country, is seeking protection in another country because of persecution or violence in their country, and they have a legal right to apply for asylum. They haven't been granted it yet, but their claim is under review and they have a right to be in the country. The person who's undocumented does not have a right to be in the country. So they have different legal opportunities. They have a right to due process, but they don't have a right to stay. Whereas someone who is applying for a refugee status for asylum, even under international law, not just under the US Constitution, has a right to be here. And so that makes a very big difference.
- [52:11]
Kimberly Atkins Store
That was a great question. Our next question is from Andy Heppel. Forgive me if I don't get that right, but it comes from blue sky. And the question is how can a normal person keep up with all of the mind melting craziness from across the legal and political. Well, Andy, I hear you. I feel the same way. I cannot wrap my mind around everything that is going on and it's literally my job. I'm a journalist covering politics and law and it's hard. What I would recommend for you is one, choose some sources that you trust and that you have found to be edifying and useful and seek them out on a regular basis. And I would, if you, to the extent that you can, that you have the bandwidth for it. I would find different forms of sources. It doesn't always it certainly shouldn't always be cable news, but it shouldn't also just be certain newspapers either. It can come from a variety of sources. I subscribe to several newsletters from people who I really enjoy and I learn a lot from who I think are smart, as well as reading certain print publications and even watching some television and radio journalism too. But I start off with the ones that I trust. The great thing I like about newsletters is if I need a break, and this is going to get to my second point, but if I need a break, at least I know they're there in my inbox or I can see something. You know, some if I see that, you know, a professor that I like or a journalist that I like has written about an issue like nationwide injunctions or the constitutionality about an issue and I don't have the ability to dive into it at that moment, I know it's in my inbox and I can go back and say, oh yes, I want to read this. I also use apps that sort of, you can save articles offline and you can read them later. But the second point is really, really important, which is give yourself a break. Understand that you cannot know everything at every moment, even if you really, really want to. And trying to fill your whole mind with every fact can can actually work against you by making it harder for you to have a well rounded life where you are still enjoying your family, enjoying going for a walk, enjoying what your work is. And that keeps you a full and complete person who is capable of doing your part to fight and protect our democracy. If you get bogged down by every detail, by all the craziness that's part of the design of the current administration to sort of weigh you down and make you miss it all because you're gonna burn out, don't burn out. Take good care of yourself. Seek out smart sources. Stay on top of it. You know, listen to Sisters in Law every week. We will do the best that we can to help you, but I really appreciate that question. Thank you for listening to Sisters in Law with Jill Wine Banks and me, Kimberly Atkins. Thor. Follow Sisters in Law wherever you listen to your podcast and give us a five star review so that others can find us. And please, please show some love for this week's sponsors. We're asked a lot if we really like our sponsors. If you can't tell from our ads, which I find that surprising because I think it's clear that we do. The answer is yes, we do. We would never put our name on something that we didn't believe in. And this week, please support one Skin, Aura Frames, Honey Love and and hexclad. Their links are all in the show notes. So show them love and see you back next week with the full sister contingent, not just half for another episode of Sisters in Law. Jill, I thought you were gonna say something entirely different. I thought you were gonna say that since Barb isn't here, I was actually surprised you didn't say the whole episode. I thought that there would be swearing. I thought we were free this week and. But you kept it clean, but that's fine. Respect. Respect.
- [56:25]
Jill Wine Banks
Oh, God. You know, it's really true because having just talked to Chelsea Handler, she doesn't keep her mouth clean. And so I almost was motivated by that.
- [56:35]
Kimberly Atkins Store
Yeah, that's right, Barb. I said it's.