Sisters in Law — Episode 253: "We Are All In This Together"

Date: September 13, 2025
Hosts: Kimberly Atkins Storr, Barb McQuaid, Jill Wine-Banks, Joyce Vance
Podcast: Politicon's #SistersInLaw

Episode Overview

This week's episode offers a deeply sobering look at American political violence and its legal ripples, centering on the murder of Charlie Kirk at Utah Valley University. The hosts pull back the curtain on the law’s role in moments of crisis, explore how the Supreme Court’s recent rulings—especially concerning immigration stops and the emergency (“shadow”) docket—profoundly affect civil rights, and reflect on the increasing power of the executive branch under Trump’s administration. Throughout, they examine the stresses facing our democracy, grounding their analysis with historical context, practical legal expertise, and their trademark candor.

Fall Reflections — Easing Into the Discussion

[00:12-04:55]

• Seasonal Self-Care: The hosts trade stories about their favorite fall rituals—leaf-peeping, football games, apple cider, and Halloween costumes.
• Light-hearted banter provides a moment of levity before turning to recent tragic events.

The Murder of Charlie Kirk: Legal and Moral Ramifications

[08:07-13:02]

Reactions and Reflections

• Political Violence as Terrorism:
  • Kimberly Atkins Storr opens:

    "Political violence is like terrorism in that it puts fear in the hearts of people, regardless of their ideology. ... I prayed that he would survive, because I did not want this to descend into territory where conditions are rife for civil war." [08:07]

• Condemnation Across Politics:
  • Joyce Vance:

    "This is not somebody whose politics I liked or subscribed to. That doesn’t make what happened to him right.... I have checked in with a lot of friends this week who were... very worried, especially some of the young activists who have received a lot of threats." [09:25]

  • Jill Wine-Banks emphasizes bipartisan unity, contrasting the Utah governor's call for calm and open dialogue with Trump’s inflammatory rhetoric.

    “…the governor was calling for bipartisanship, unity, open discussion. … Violence is always wrong.” [10:12]

• Media Coverage and Priorities:
  • Barb McQuaid notes:

    “…this case has gotten so much attention when, meanwhile, we've had... a school shooting in Colorado that is relegated to the back pages because we are more interested in the political violence and Donald Trump's attempts to exploit this and use it as another wedge between Americans.” [11:27]

Legal Ramifications and Prosecutorial Outlook

[13:02-16:43]

• Potential Charges Against the Suspect:
  • Barb McQuaid clarifies:

    “...a first degree premeditated deliberate murder would be the most likely and probably the strongest charge available here. … There is no crime per se, of domestic terrorism [federally] ... Politics alone does not count [as a hate crime]...” [14:17]

• Federal vs. State Jurisdiction:
  • Federal law is limited; state murder charges will likely take precedence barring unique evidence of federal crimes.
• Insight into System Limitations:
  • Political orientation is not a protected category for hate crimes—race, gender, and sexual identity are.

Free Speech, Retaliation, and Trump’s Promises

[16:43-19:41]

• Trump Administration’s Response:
  • Quoting from reporting:

    “…declaring that those who speak in violent terms about Trump and his allies will face consequences... promising to deport noncitizens who [speak out]."

• First Amendment Concerns:
  • Jill Wine-Banks warns:

    "Absolutely not, that our Constitution and its protection of free speech will be violated… Trump calling it left wing and calling for retaliation and retribution to silence dissent is not allowed by the First Amendment." [17:37]

• The panel underscores the narrow limitations on restricting speech according to Brandenburg v. Ohio.

FBI Confusion and Investigative Protocols

[19:41-24:56]

• Missteps in the Investigation:
  • FBI higher-ups released premature information, causing confusion as to the suspect’s identity.
  • Joyce Vance draws on personal experience:

    “…the FBI failed to follow the first step in the standard guidance... establish a command post and secure the chain of command.... this embarrassing incident where the director… announces an arrest and then has to walk it back takes place.” [20:43]

• Importance of Proper Coordination:
  • Press briefings should be local; Washington, D.C. should offer support, not control.
  • Investigative missteps are unlikely to affect prosecution due to the suspect’s confession, but they tarnish public trust and fuel conspiracy theories.

Broader Themes: Radicalization & Gun Control

[26:16-30:53]

• Online Radicalization:
  • Barb McQuaid shares concerns about self-radicalization, referencing internet memes and messages involved in the Kirk shooting.
• Gun Violence Debate:
  • Kim: “It's the guns. It's the guns. ...I just don't see any change unless we change our culture…” [28:05]
  • Barb: “Assault weapons... there’s just no reason for it.” [29:20]
  • Jill: “The Second Amendment was written at a time when… we had muskets… I don't think they meant the kind of weapon that was used in this incident and that will be used again for mass shootings.” [30:10]
• Textualism/Irony:
  • Barb: “Game on, you originalists.” [30:38]

The Supreme Court’s Racial Profiling Immigration Ruling

[33:48-44:52]

• Background:
  • Supreme Court reversed a lower court’s block on ICE stops based on appearance, language, and location—effectively allowing racial profiling during the litigation’s duration.
  • Joyce calls the lower court's order “a very sensible ruling designed to protect people’s rights.” [34:14]
• Supreme Court’s Move:
  • Kimberly: “Let me pull out the opinion and read it. Oh, wait, there isn’t one... It was an unsigned order. ... Beats me.” [35:37]
  • Barb: “The old shadow docket strikes again.” [35:56]
• Precedent Ignored:
  • Jill brings up US v. Brignoni-Ponce (1975), which barred racial profiling by border patrol:

    “...precedent had to have something to do with what the court does going forward, and we know that it doesn't.” [37:04]

• Dissent’s Power:
  • Kim reads Justice Sotomayor:

    “We should not have to live in a country where the government can seize anyone who looks Latino, speaks Spanish, and appears to work a low wage job...” [46:45]

• Practical Consequences:
  • Jill: “Anyone who speaks Spanish, speaks English with an accent, who looks possibly from Mexico... may have to start carrying their papers with them.” [48:18]

SCOTUS Emergency Docket ("Shadow Docket") — A Democracy in Peril

[52:55-74:34]

Fast-Tracked Cases: Erosion of Checks and Balances

• Trump’s Expedited Power Grabs:
  • Barb details tariffs: SCOTUS is swiftly hearing Trump's challenge to tariff limits, accelerating his power to act unilaterally. [54:03]
  • Joyce on agency firings:

    “...this may give Donald Trump the ability to fire even appointed folks in the federal bureaucracy, which would simply allow him to move further towards having a loyalty corps...” [57:33]

• Federal Aid Blocked:
  • Kim: Court blocks a $4 billion foreign aid disbursement — a move seen as another expansion of executive power while signaling Congress’ inertia. [58:59]
• Transgender Rights & Emergency Rulings:
  • Joyce: The court lets a trans student in South Carolina continue using the boys’ bathroom pending appeal but offers no rationale; dissenters would have banned the practice pending resolution. [63:02]
  • Kim ridicules the court’s logic on biological sex and broader bathroom access, linking such rulings to efforts to control marginalized populations:

    “It is targeting trans kids... all of this is an effort to control people. ...It's all, you know, it's important to remember that all of this is an effort to control people.” [64:55]

Listener Q&A

[77:21-84:18]

• Census and Trump’s Targeting:
  • Kim: “The census is the basis on which our congressional maps are drawn... If Latino people or people who make low wages... are undercounted, they lose political power literally in their vote. So that... is why he’s targeting them.” [77:53]
• Federal Circuit System:
  • Barb explains judicial circuits and appeals routes in plain terms. [80:05]
• Federal Grand Jury Selection:
  • Jill details the impartial selection process, including eligibility and how grand juries work. [81:40]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Kimberly Atkins Storr [08:07]: “Political violence is like terrorism... I prayed that he would survive, because I did not want this to descend into territory where conditions are rife for civil war.”
• Joyce Vance [09:25]: “Political violence is just utterly abhorrent... what I keep hoping for is a moment in this country where Donald Trump will reach out to Democratic leadership to say we all of us, unilaterally reject violence.”
• Jill Wine-Banks [10:12]: “Violence is always wrong.”
• Barb McQuaid [11:27]: “The idea that you get shot for saying even repugnant things is just not how things are supposed to work in the United States.”
• Kimberly Atkins Storr [13:02]: “We have to... still have to see each other as people and not as enemies. And I do hope that we can get to that place without more violence.”
• Jill Wine-Banks [37:04]: “That would mean precedent had to have something to do with what the court does... and we know that it doesn’t.”
• Kim [46:45], quoting Justice Sotomayor: “We should not have to live in a country where the government can seize anyone who looks Latino, speaks Spanish, and appears to work a low wage job... I dissent.”

Takeaways

• Deepening Partisanship: Hosts are united in alarm—violence across party lines, the erosion of precedent, and Supreme Court opacity all threaten the social contract.
• Checks and Balances Under Siege: Emergency docket decisions increasingly favor a more powerful executive branch with less congressional and judicial oversight.
• Civil Liberties in Question: Rulings on immigration stops, LGBTQ+ rights, and federal agency independence portend a narrower, more conditional vision of constitutional freedoms.

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Fall Rituals & Banter: 00:12 – 04:55
• Charlie Kirk Murder: Emotional & Legal Response: 08:07 – 16:43
• First Amendment & Trump's Rhetoric: 16:43 – 19:41
• FBI Investigation Mishaps: 19:41 – 24:56
• Gun Control & Radicalization: 26:16 – 30:53
• SCOTUS Allows Racial Profiling Immigration Stops: 33:48 – 49:30
• Expanding Trump’s Executive Powers via Shadow Docket: 52:55 – 74:34
• Listener Q&A: 77:21 – 84:18

Tone & Language

The hosts blend urgency, legal acumen, and accessible explanations with wit and warmth—never shying away from their personal views, yet always returning to the rule of law as the vital refuge for democracy.

This episode is a must-listen for anyone concerned about the direction of the American legal system, the real-world impacts of Supreme Court decisions, and the moral compass of political leadership in turbulent times.